Quote from: Simlasa;835282I played in a one-shot of The Haunting recently and no one came close to madness or death... for which I lay the blame squarely at the feet of the Keeper. Up until the final confrontation with Corbett it really felt more like some old 'Abbot & Costello Meet X' movie because he pulled all his punches.

Punches...there are no punches...flying knives and furniture on the other hand...as it were...

Quote from: Bren;835310Punches...there are no punches...flying knives and furniture on the other hand...as it were...

Yeah, the dreaded knife went straight into a pocket and stayed there.

Quote from: Simlasa;835275If that's the case then no one ought to ever be scared by horror films or books... because they know those things are going to try to scare them. But people like me DO get scares from those things as well as RPGs aimed at overt horror.
It sounds like you feel it's necessary to 'trick' Players into being scared where I see it as a sort of contract that is best entered into willingly/knowingly.

I get why that might work, but might it also upset some folks who see it as 'bait n' switch' and don't want ghosts in their 'hard scifi'? Still, it's one of the reasons that I'll toss mundane/non-Mythos situations into CoC campaigns... why I think the introductory adventure 'The Haunting' works well if you turn it into a Scooby Doo episode where it's just ordinary suburban cultists trying to scare folks away from the Corbett house... no dimensional shamblers or undead wizard.

Obviously, our experiences differ. Thirty years ago when I started playing RPGs and the guys I gamed with didn't know who HP Lovecraft was or what kind of game Call of Cthulhu is, there wasn't much of a problem. Today, my Players have more access to information and are older, so they have already heard about Lovecraftian horror and know what to expect out of that game. So yes, I do have to trick them. I have to be more clever than their expectations and knowledge.

One way that I do this is by taking the lessons of horror from HP Lovecraft's writing and Call of Cthulhu, then applying those to an entirely different game system. Traveller's Ancients are beings capable of technological feats like making pocket universes. That level of technology and being alien makes them very much like what the Elder Gods of Lovecraftian Horror are and so I use them as stand-ins. I use infrasound creating devices in game to make the PCs have feelings of edginess and nervousness. Directed low power braided magnetic fields can affect PCs thinking and even induce insanity.

To top it all off, Traveller has psionics as canon. Why should not something be used if it is there?

Quote from: Simlasa;835275That second bit kind of renders whatever goes before it meaningless... 'Even if the game sucks...' or 'Even if the GM doesn't show up...'

I don't know about you, but I play RPGs to have fun. So it is pretty meaningful to me.

Quote from: jeff37923;835376Thirty years ago when I started playing RPGs and the guys I gamed with didn't know who HP Lovecraft was or what kind of game Call of Cthulhu is, there wasn't much of a problem. Today, my Players have more access to information and are older, so they have already heard about Lovecraftian horror and know what to expect out of that game.

So you're talking specifically about Lovecraft/CoC... which yeah, if you approach it in some overly formulaic way (like a lot of 'Lovecraftian' authors do) sure, it gets old fast... but that's about being obvious and doing the same old thing and there are great examples of how to break that mold without resorting to telling players you're going to run Toon just so you can get them off guard long enough to drop in a Deep One jump scare..

It certainly seems fine to me to work horror into other non-horror games... if you know your Players won't revolt.

QuoteTo top it all off, Traveller has psionics as canon. Why should not something be used if it is there?

Sure, but you were talking about ghosts and haunted spaceships... which I'd be fine with in Rogue Trader but in Traveller it would seem a bit jarring if I'd been led to believe we were playing straight Scifi... unless you had some scifi rationale for the spooks, which might risk deflating some of the atmosphere (depending on how it's presented).

QuoteI don't know about you, but I play RPGs to have fun. So it is pretty meaningful to me.

You misunderstood me... but whatever.

Quote from: Simlasa;835409So you're talking specifically about Lovecraft/CoC... which yeah, if you approach it in some overly formulaic way (like a lot of 'Lovecraftian' authors do) sure, it gets old fast... but that's about being obvious and doing the same old thing and there are great examples of how to break that mold without resorting to telling players you're going to run Toon just so you can get them off guard long enough to drop in a Deep One jump scare...

Look fucko, it isn't about approaching the material in a formulaic fashion. It is the fact that the material has been around and known for so long that it has become a part of RPG common history that Players already know. They don't feel a sense of dread when they hear about Lovecraftian horror, the typical modern Player pulls out a plush Cthulhu toy or starts making jokes about "Collect Calls of Cthulhu".

Same thing with Vampires, Werewolves, and Zombie Apocalypses. The material has been done to death and most Players already know what to expect and play accordingly.

What was once scary is now more campy.

Quote from: jeff37923;835418What was once scary is now more campy.

WoD was always campy.

Quote from: jeff37923;835418What was once scary is now more campy.

Only if you keep on doing it the same old way... over and over.
The the idea of vampires and ghosts is old as dirt, yet we keep getting fresh takes on them... in movies/books that openly let on that they're about vampires/ghosts... and folks are still getting scared by them... so I'm just thinking you must have run dry on imagination/inspiration or something to think Lovecraftian content can't scare anymore. There's more to it than just name-dropping Cthulhu.

Quote from: Simlasa;835461Only if you keep on doing it the same old way... over and over.
The the idea of vampires and ghosts is old as dirt, yet we keep getting fresh takes on them... in movies/books that openly let on that they're about vampires/ghosts... and folks are still getting scared by them... so I'm just thinking you must have run dry on imagination/inspiration or something to think Lovecraftian content can't scare anymore. There's more to it than just name-dropping Cthulhu.

I guess you haven't been keeping up on current events, but the last "fresh take" on vampires made them sparkly - not scary.

It isn't a failure of imagination or inspiration when your Players expect horror gaming after they read the cover of the rulebook and is entitled Call of Cthulhu.

Quote from: jeff37923;835479I guess you haven't been keeping up on current events, but the last "fresh take" on vampires made them sparkly - not scary.

I recommend you seek out Penny Dreadful post haste.

Quote from: Zevious Zoquis;833623Oh yeah of course, but I think with a book or movie- if it's good - I can get really engrossed and forget its a movie or book.  I don't find that an easy state to achieve with an rpg.  There's a lot more going on that interferes with that happening.  I suppose its not impossible, but it would take a pretty exceptional GM I think.

IME, it requires both a good GM and a table full of good players. One dud player makes it functionally impossible.

Quote from: jedimastert;833695There are only 2 things that ever scare my players.

1. Level Drain

2. Lightsabers

Which raises an important: A lot of people think death and gore is the same thing as horror. It's not. Death is a cessation. Gore is decoration.

In order to experience horror, you have to fear losing something meaningful. Death is frightening in real life because it is the loss of everything; in a game, it's generally less significant (unless you've got a lot of investment in the character).

That's why level drain is legitimately frightening in old school games: You are going to lose something. And you are going to have to live with that loss.

I often find that I get more horrified reactions from my players when I threaten NPCs they care about for a similar reason: If they died, they'd get to role up a new character and continue to play. If the NPC dies, they (and their characters) are going to have to live with the consequences of that.

Quote from: jeff37923;835479I guess you haven't been keeping up on current events, but the last "fresh take" on vampires made them sparkly - not scary.

While you were watching that I was watching The Strain, A Girl Walks Home Alone At Night and Byzantium.

QuoteIt isn't a failure of imagination or inspiration when your Players expect horror gaming after they read the cover of the rulebook and is entitled Call of Cthulhu.

It's a failure if you can't come up with some interesting ways to play off of their expectations and subvert their familiarity. Nothing is guaranteed but as a Player I'd certainly appreciate the attempt.
Whole campaigns of CoC can be run without resorting to mentions of Cthulhu, Nyarlathotep and Deep Ones while remaining firmly in Lovecraftland.

It seems like your argument is that because the Players know the tropes you can't surprise them or do anything new... which would speak ill of D&D if it were true, "Oh, the players saw the rulebook, now they KNOW there are going to be dragons and dungeons in the game!!!"... but somehow I keep Playing in games of D&D that entertain and even scare me. Even though 'Dungeon' is right there in the title of the game a good GM/group can still put me on the edge of my seat while we explore one... and it can still exciting when a 'Dragon' shows up.

Quote from: Simlasa;835556It's a failure if you can't come up with some interesting ways to play off of their expectations and subvert their familiarity. Nothing is guaranteed but as a Player I'd certainly appreciate the attempt.
Whole campaigns of CoC can be run without resorting to mentions of Cthulhu, Nyarlathotep and Deep Ones while remaining firmly in Lovecraftland.

It seems like your argument is that because the Players know the tropes you can't surprise them or do anything new... which would speak ill of D&D if it were true, "Oh, the players saw the rulebook, now they KNOW there are going to be dragons and dungeons in the game!!!"... but somehow I keep Playing in games of D&D that entertain and even scare me. Even though 'Dungeon' is right there in the title of the game a good GM/group can still put me on the edge of my seat while we explore one... and it can still exciting when a 'Dragon' shows up.

:rolleyes:
 
Stop being stupid, will you?

The expectations of the Players will be dictated by what rules system is used.

I have said earlier that you can use the tropes of horror in other games being run and still surprise Players, but the game system chosen to be run does dictate a parameter of genre elements and style of play. The working envelope of Call of Cthulhu is best used for Lovecraftian horror, the working envelope of Mekton is best used for anime mecha action, the working envelope for d6 Star Wars is best used for role-playing in the Star Wars universe. This is known as choosing the right tools for the job, the game system chosen does dictate the working parameters of the game when played. Can I use Call of Cthulhu to run a campaign of The Untouchables or The X-Files or D&D? Yes, but I will have to ignore large portions of the rules and add some of my own. Can I use horror tropes in Traveller, yes - and it is actually easier since the system supports a wider field of gaming in the science fiction genre than a specialized one like Call of Cthulhu.

If I have a hammer in my hand, people will expect me to be pounding things with it, not use it to reprogram a computer. Weren't you bitching earlier in the thread about using Toon in order to fake out Players so that you could get in a Deep Ones jump scare?

I have a hang-up about science fiction gaming, from this conversation I would guess that your hang-up revolves around horror gaming. Am I correct?

Quote from: jeff37923;835600Stop being stupid, will you?

It seems to me you're the one being intentionally dense.

QuoteThe expectations of the Players will be dictated by what rules system is used.

Who said otherwise? My suggestion was to work with those expectations and re-mix them. No lies or cheats.

QuoteI have said earlier that you can use the tropes of horror in other games being run and still surprise Players, but the game system chosen to be run does dictate a parameter of genre elements and style of play.

I never disagreed with that. I questioned whether dropping 'ghosts' into Traveller might be outside the average Traveller player's expectations and meet with resistance if not approached with some caution.

QuoteThe working envelope of Call of Cthulhu is best used for Lovecraftian horror

I never said it wasn't... never suggested you shouldn't run Lovecraftian horror with it. I was just suggesting that 'Lovecraftian horror' encompasses a lot more than name-dropping some mythos entities and having shootouts with shoggoths. It's still viable material/themes for horror in the right hands.

QuoteCan I use Call of Cthulhu to run a campaign of The Untouchables or The X-Files or D&D? Yes, but I will have to ignore large portions of the rules and add some of my own.

Looking at Delta Green I don't think you'd have to change much of anything to run X-Files, but whatever. I doubt you'd have to change anything to run The Untouchables either. But yeah, you would be ignoring big chunks of the setting... not that that's a crime. I think CoC can work well if a campaign includes sessions that don't feature any Mythos at all... such as falling afoul of some ordinary gangsters and having to deal with that. That IS a trope in horror... that not all things that go bump in the night are ghosts.

QuoteCan I use horror tropes in Traveller, yes - and it is actually easier since the system supports a wider field of gaming in the science fiction genre than a specialized one like Call of Cthulhu

I agree that Traveller/scifi, at it's base assumptions is more open-ended... but I still expect you'd meet with resistance if you... without warning... pulled out some classic werewolves or undead sorcerors... or Cthulhu. I think just about any genre can support horror elements quite well... but like you said, people have expectations based on the rules and IME Traveller players have a low tolerance for supernatural elements appearing in their game... unless there was some agreement in group discussion. Just like I wouldn't drop magical ponies into a CoC game... well, unless they were strange non-euclidean ponies from another dimension...

QuoteWeren't you bitching earlier in the thread about using Toon in order to fake out Players so that you could get in a Deep Ones jump scare?

I was mocking your excuse that you couldn't scare Players if they knew it was a horror game... that seeing 'Call of Cthulhu' on the front of the book automatically gave too much away because they'd been there, done that.

QuoteI have a hang-up about science fiction gaming, from this conversation I would guess that your hang-up revolves around horror gaming. Am I correct?

My hang-up is just that I think your arguments on this matter are kind of lame, that's all.
I do tend to comment more on games I play and like vs. games I don't play or don't care about... maybe that's what you're noticing?

Quote from: Simlasa;835603My hang-up is just that I think your arguments on this matter are kind of lame, that's all.

Then why didn't you just say that?

It isn't like people don't have different experiences with gaming, you know?

Quote from: jeff37923;835627Then why didn't you just say that?

It isn't like people don't have different experiences with gaming, you know?

I didn't think we were discussing experiences so much as reasons why we thought a game could/couldn't be scary.
Not how a game 'should' be played... only how it 'could' be played.

I can't comment on what your experiences are... just the conclusions you seem to draw from them.