4e D&D is the only version that gave PCs a bunch of hp at 1st level. 5e lets PCs level up from 1st very fast, and makes death harder. In other D&D-based games, PCs are extremely squishy at 1st level and it seems common to give them a boost.
Of my own games currently running, in 5e I don't alter hit points at 1st level, while in my White Star game I want a space opera feel so I increase them significantly by giving PCs 9 hp on their first (d6) hit die, death at -10, and can have 4 hp per subsequent hit die. Looking at my copy of Swords & Wizardry yesterday with an eye to running it soon, I was thinking of running it with max+2 hp at 1st, so Fighters 8+2=10 hp, Clerics 6+2 = 8 hp, M-Us and Thieves at 4+2=6 hp. That seems like enough to make them somewhat robust without greatly altering the feel of play.
Do you ever do this sort of thing, and if so how?
Fantastic Heroes and Witchery has a neat system. Each PC gets their usual hit points as you would expect from an OSR style game based on the class. In addition the player also has a number of "wound hit points" that are based on a racial hit dice, like d8 for elves, dwarves and humans, d6 for halflings and d10 for half orcs. These wound points only take damage once the usual class hit points are reduced to zero and the loss if a wound point means a -1 to the d20 rolls.
At at o wound points you are incapacitated and -10 wound points you are dead of course.
The upshot of this is 1st level characters don't drop so fast but after their hit points (as opposed to wound points) but do enter into a downward spiral once their class hit points are gone. And since the wound points don't increase (you get the one and that's it) it doesn't significanly "unbalance" play beyond 5th level or so.
I like Dead at 0 HP, Unconscious at 1 HP and I hate the -10 dance. Thus, I give PCs get +10 HP.
AKA, instead of getting the 10 HP under 0, you get them to stay up and kick ass, but when you hit 0, you done be dead.
If the game is cinematic, you can Save vs. Death and remain at 1 HP.
Firstly, I never start PCs at 1st level in any level-based game I run. 3rd is my minimum, and I assume max hit points for first level, if they're rolled.
Your first half of hit points are stress/fatigue/strain, you can go through them without any other impacts, and they heal faster. Your second half are real harm, you start getting penalties to things at less than 50% and less than 25% of your total. 0 is unconscious and into more serious, longer-term effects.
Quote from: Mike the Mage;1045319Fantastic Heroes and Witchery has a neat system. Each PC gets their usual hit points as you would expect from an OSR style game based on the class. In addition the player also has a number of "wound hit points" that are based on a racial hit dice, like d8 for elves, dwarves and humans, d6 for halflings and d10 for half orcs. These wound points only take damage once the usual class hit points are reduced to zero and the loss if a wound point means a -1 to the d20 rolls.
At at o wound points you are incapacitated and -10 wound points you are dead of course.
The upshot of this is 1st level characters don't drop so fast but after their hit points (as opposed to wound points) but do enter into a downward spiral once their class hit points are gone. And since the wound points don't increase (you get the one and that's it) it doesn't significanly "unbalance" play beyond 5th level or so.
While this implementation seems fiddly, the idea of a racial or zero level hit die on top of class hit dice is great! Have to think about this. White Star uses race as class so not so great there, but should work great in games that split them. In 5e would be an extra d8 for Medium and d6 for Small. For most versions of dnd probably a straight d6 is best.
Quote from: S'mon;1045333While this implementation seems fiddly, the idea of a racial or zero level hit die on top of class hit dice is great! Have to think about this. White Star uses race as class so not so great there, but should work great in games that split them. In 5e would be an extra d8 for Medium and d6 for Small. For most versions of dnd probably a straight d6 is best.
Agree on good idea and fiddly implementation. Using something like that in Basic D&D, I'd just go with racial die for wound points, adjusted by Con modifier. If you have any damage to your wound points at all, -2 to all d20 rolls. Might adjust the natural healing rules to make regular hit points come back slightly faster than normal, and the wound points much slower. Easy to track, gives a little room between hurt and dead, and still no one wants to spend much time running around with wounds.
I've played around with multiple things:
Starting PCs at a higher level (usually level 3)
Starting PCs with HPs equal to constitution (various combinations of this)
Just saying "screw it" and giving PCs +10 HP or some other number. Don't the old Hackmaster rules at +20?
Just about anything works. The only thing I don't think works at all is applying the same rule to minor opposing NPCs and monsters. It just increases the HP attrition slog that combat is.
I think it depends on what tone you want your game to be.
What you had for the Space Opera sounds fine to me. As you'd want the characters to be pretty robust heroes. Not much of a hero if he gets lumped by paraplegic Jawa at first level 'cause the poor bloke has 2 hps. :)
Generally though, for my own games which are pretty dark, I'll probably throw out max HP for level one and then strip it back to normal after.
I do like my players to feel like they've gone through the meat grinder but I don't like killing them off willy-nilly (just my own preference). I have nicked the idea of Fate Points from WFRP in the past and given 1 to each player at the start of an adventure. So you get that one chance if shit hits the fan. Plus, you can give them out for rewards.
The HP number for death I generally like zero, that said I've let a character go to -2 before, because there was a surgeon beside him and could give instant aid. But said character had to spend a good bit of time recovering.
It depends on the game, but I usually give max hit points at first level and if I think they really need it, I double it. 0 HP is dying and negative HP equal to your level is dead.
I eventually had a house rule in 1e/2e where 1st-level PCs all start at max hp.
I find D+D more enjoyable when the chance of death before reaching 3rd level is pretty substantial; I just find it makes play more exciting and progress feels more rewarding. So, I don't play 4E at all (largely for this reason), and don't do anything to toughen up low level characters in pre-4E editions. I instituted a house rule in my 5E play that effectively treats 'backgrounds' as something equivalent to the 0-level funnel in DCC. New characters start play at 0 level with no class but all the benefits of their background, and 1d6 HP (plus CON bonus if appropriate). The level up to 1st level after getting from -50 to 0 EXP or for surviving their first adventure (I've done both, and a case can be made for either). Once you reach 1st level, you gain all your class abilities and so forth, and then add HP equivalent to 1 roll of your new class hit die, but do not add your CON bonus a second time (i.e., you only get it once for the level 0,1 period). Because both the 0-level d6 and the 1st level hit die are rolled, not given as a maximum result, the average outcome is pretty similar to the canonical rules. I.e., the average outcome for a 1st level fighter would be 1d6+1d10 = average of 9, whereas canonical rules would assign a value of 10. But, there is more variance in HP at first level, and characters spend some time in that really 'squishy' mode, which increases overall lethality (which I think is too low in 5E).
'
Quote from: Mike the Mage;1045319In addition the player also has a number of "wound hit points" that are based on a racial hit dice, like d8 for elves, dwarves and humans, d6 for halflings and d10 for half orcs.
I usually run AD&D with a similar thing: class/level hit points are on top of a small random amount of 0-level hit points, using the chart on p. 88 of the
DMG under Typical Inhabitants. That's for humans. Nonhumans use the
MM hit die value for 0-level hp. It all adds up to a single pool of hp, though: unconsciousness at 0 hp, death at -10.
Quote from: Barbatruc;1045403I usually run AD&D with a similar thing: class/level hit points are on top of a small random amount of 0-level hit points, using the chart on p. 88 of the DMG under Typical Inhabitants. That's for humans.
Sucks to be a Sedentary Female, eh. :D
Quote from: S'mon;1045408Sucks to be a Sedentary Female, eh. :D
I'll take your word for it, as I don't implement the distinction in question.
Quote from: Barbatruc;1045420I'll take your word for it, as I don't implement the distinction in question.
You only use part of the chart? The male part?
I was wondering do Labouring/Active/Sedentary roles & thus hp get assigned by PC class?
In LFG PCs start with max hp, and all classes get higher average HP. Fighter gets d5+5, rogue gets d4+4, magic user gets d3+3, and so on. It is a low magic game however, and limited short rests only restore half damage suffered. Long rests are 1d6 days and generally don't happen during an adventure unless it is particularly long.
I give starting character a number of hit points equal to the Con with the added caveat that they don't increased their hit points until their rolled hit points exceed their Con. [In other words, their hit points equals their rolled hit points or their Con, whichever is highest]
This makes low level characters less squishy without giving them piles of extra hit points at high levels.
One thing I've tried in the past and worked rather decently was bashing together the damage system from DnD and Traveller. Normally, when you get hit you lose Hit Points. If you're out of HP or you've suffered a critical hit, then rather the losing the damage rolled from HP, it's directly subtracted from one of you three physical ability scores (STR, DEX or CON), chosen by a random roll.
It adds a buffer, but you really shouldn't try to deliberately rely on it, since a middling ability can be brought down to 0 with as few as two consecutive hits if you're unlucky. On the other hand, with luck you could just as well be able to take half a dozen extra hits, but with a deadly downwards spiral as the decrease of your abilities starts affecting your attack roll and AC bonuses.
I start first level characters off with maximum hit points, but death still comes at zero. We used to do unconcious at zero and dead at -10, with bleeding at -1 hp per round..
Using AD&D1e I used to say, "before you were a 1st level adventurer, you were a Common Man, so you get +1d6 hit points."
Now I don't bother. As the great Ivan Drago said, "if he dies, he dies."
By the book: 0HP is unconscious, -10HP is dead, and anyone reduced below 0HP and brought back by magic etc needs a week off to stagger around uselessly and recover. My house rules,
- -Con is death, eg Con 5 is dead at -5, Con 18 is dead at -18, etc.
- if reduced below 0HP by sharp weapons, fire, etc, lose 1HP per round until either stablised (takes 1 round to do and no skill) or dead.
- if reduced below 0HP by blunt weapons, you just stay where you are.
- if brought back above 0HP, you can do no more than move slowly to a place of rest for a week. If you cast a spell or do anything requiring a roll, you make a System Shock roll or... die on the spot. Burst your sutures or something.
This does a few fun things.
- Tougher characters have longer till death
- We now have a reason for clerics to use blunt weapons; good clerics want to keep you alive to have a fair trial and hang you, or give you a chance to convert, and evil clerics want you alive to enslave or sacrifice later. And anyone can choose to just beat someone up and leave them there, rather than killing them.
- players can choose not to have a week off and to keep stomping around the dungeon, but at a great risk.
With these rules, in practice what we've found is that loss of hit points rarely kills low-level player-characters, so long as the PCs win the fight overall - they treat their wounded and drag them off for healing. If 2-3 PCs go down and the other 2-3 flee, well that's different, the wounded are left to bleed out and die (interestingly, this was pretty common on actual battlefields, and a guy seeing both sides withdrawing and leaving their wounded to die at the Battle of Solferino was what ultimately led to the creation of the Red Cross). Mostly they just get killed by "save or die" stuff.
I mentioned it being AD&D1e because character creation in that is usually quick. If you take 10' to make a character then you don't mind if they die in an hour. If it takes 1-2 x 3hr sessions to do so, well then that character better last months. This to me is not an argument to make it harder to kill PCs, it's an argument to make it easier to roll up new PCs. The key is "roll up" - dice are quick, decisions are slow.
If he dies, he dies.
Quote from: The Exploited.;1045384What you had for the Space Opera sounds fine to me. As you'd want the characters to be pretty robust heroes. Not much of a hero if he gets lumped by paraplegic Jawa at first level 'cause the poor bloke has 2 hps. :)
The White Star intro adventure in the core book is really tough, an asteroid base full of cannibal reavers & robotic defence systems, and I didn't see much reason to want to certain-TPK a bunch of brand new players. Giving them 9 hp worked really well, with a bit of luck and 3 sessions (6 hours play) they ended up walking out at the end over huge piles of corpses. :)
Quote from: S'mon;10453184e D&D is the only version that gave PCs a bunch of hp at 1st level. 5e lets PCs level up from 1st very fast, and makes death harder. In other D&D-based games, PCs are extremely squishy at 1st level and it seems common to give them a boost.
Of my own games currently running, in 5e I don't alter hit points at 1st level, while in my White Star game I want a space opera feel so I increase them significantly by giving PCs 9 hp on their first (d6) hit die, death at -10, and can have 4 hp per subsequent hit die. Looking at my copy of Swords & Wizardry yesterday with an eye to running it soon, I was thinking of running it with max+2 hp at 1st, so Fighters 8+2=10 hp, Clerics 6+2 = 8 hp, M-Us and Thieves at 4+2=6 hp. That seems like enough to make them somewhat robust without greatly altering the feel of play.
Do you ever do this sort of thing, and if so how?
I'm sure other games have used a similar system, but in the D&Dish game I made (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/212664/Dungeons--Delvers--Black-Book?src=hottest_filtered) I split up HP into Wound Points and Vitality Points. The total is what a class would get in a typical non-4E D&D game. For example, fighter's get 6 WP and 4 VP at 1st-level, and something like 4 WP and 2 VP every level thereafter (the rounded up average for rolling their Hit Die, though there are rules for rolling WP and VP if you want to keep things random). Your Constitution modifier gets added to WP every level.
VP is recovered after a short rest (30 minutes is the norm, though GMs can tweak this easily). I could also see GMs tweaking this amount, or increasing the time it takes to regain VP: 30 minutes for the first time, then an hour, then 4 hours, etc.
WP is recovered after a long rest, but only in small increments: level + Constitution modifier. You get -1 per level if resting in a dungeon or wilderness area, +1 per level if resting in a nice, cozy inn. Could see GMs reducing the amount or even just say you get it all back after a good night's sleep.
In actual play VP and its fast recovery makes PCs a bit more durable, reduces the reliance on magical healing, and makes the distinction between "meat" points and fatigue/minor scratches and the like clearer (which I used for other things such as alchemical potions and whether a giant spider actually sinks its teeth into you, forcing a save to avoid being poisoned).
HPs are a false hope in most of my games. I've run entire campaigns were PCs got max at every level and STILL regularly splattered PCs.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1045472HPs are a false hope in most of my games. I've run entire campaigns were PCs got max at every level and STILL regularly splattered PCs.
Accidentally? Sheer luck? Stupid players? Something else?
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1045454U
By the book: 0HP is unconscious, -10HP is dead, and anyone reduced below 0HP and brought back by magic etc needs a week off to stagger around uselessly and recover. My house rules,
- -Con is death, eg Con 5 is dead at -5, Con 18 is dead at -18, etc.
- if reduced below 0HP by sharp weapons, fire, etc, lose 1HP per round until either stablised (takes 1 round to do and no skill) or dead.
- if reduced below 0HP by blunt weapons, you just stay where you are.
- if brought back above 0HP, you can do no more than move slowly to a place of rest for a week. If you cast a spell or do anything requiring a roll, you make a System Shock roll or... die on the spot. Burst your sutures or something.
This does a few fun things.
- Tougher characters have longer till death
- We now have a reason for clerics to use blunt weapons; good clerics want to keep you alive to have a fair trial and hang you, or give you a chance to convert, and evil clerics want you alive to enslave or sacrifice later. And anyone can choose to just beat someone up and leave them there, rather than killing them.
- players can choose not to have a week off and to keep stomping around the dungeon, but at a great risk.
With these rules, in practice what we've found is that loss of hit points rarely kills low-level player-characters, so long as the PCs win the fight overall - they treat their wounded and drag them off for healing. If 2-3 PCs go down and the other 2-3 flee, well that's different, the wounded are left to bleed out and die (interestingly, this was pretty common on actual battlefields, and a guy seeing both sides withdrawing and leaving their wounded to die at the Battle of Solferino was what ultimately led to the creation of the Red Cross). Mostly they just get killed by "save or die" stuff.
Excellent House Rules. I like your thinking.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1045454I mentioned it being AD&D1e because character creation in that is usually quick. If you take 10' to make a character then you don't mind if they die in an hour. If it takes 1-2 x 3hr sessions to do so, well then that character better last months. This to me is not an argument to make it harder to kill PCs, it's an argument to make it easier to roll up new PCs. The key is "roll up" - dice are quick, decisions are slow.
Indeed. I sometimes ask myself what people mean when they say "I wanna play in a gritty world where life is cheap where only the tough lucky survive" but then don't expect their character to be in mortal danger. It might be somebody else's idea of fun, but not mine.
I mean, how can you play in a Cyberpunk dystopian world in which, well, you don't really have to watch your back becasues well, the GM and I have this arrangement that PC death is to be agreed upon.
I have heard the idea that the PCs can lose something other than their lives...but really. That's fucking Thundercats.
Quote from: Mike the Mage;1045515That's fucking Thundercats.
Oh no you didnt!
Thunder, thunder, thunder... Thundercats.... hooo!
Quote from: Psikerlord;1045546Oh no you didnt!
Thunder, thunder, thunder... Thundercats.... hooo!
It's getting a new version next year in 2019 CalArts style and people hate it already.:D
[video=youtube;2qi41rHz4ps]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qi41rHz4ps[/youtube]
That's a singularly ugly style of animation.
Quote from: Mike the Mage;1045551It's getting a new version next year in 2019 CalArts style and people hate it already.:D
[video=youtube;2qi41rHz4ps]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qi41rHz4ps[/youtube]
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Quote from: Kiero;1045555That's a singularly ugly style of animation.
it's also incredibly lazy as it's the same 'style' used by Steven Universe et al.
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Yep the CalArts style from the California Institute of the Arts. A style for the talentless who not only can't draw but don't even want to learn to draw. And then, they just draw other people's stuff like a shit cover version.
https://www.dailydot.com/parsec/thundercats-roar-backlash-calarts/
Quote from: S'mon;1045318Do you ever do this sort of thing, and if so how?
Usually do max HP at first level, but I might not do it next time. We'll see.
Quote from: Mike the Mage;1045593Yep the CalArts style from the California Institute of the Arts. A style for the talentless who not only can't draw but don't even want to learn to draw. And then, they just draw other people's stuff like a shit cover version.
https://www.dailydot.com/parsec/thundercats-roar-backlash-calarts/
To think you just could go down state and learn the craft properly at the Watts Atelier. And it would be much cheaper, too.
In Lion & Dragon characters start out as 0-level, with 1d6 hp (modified by CON; Scots Men get +1hp extra).
If they survive their first adventure, they get to level 1, where they roll a hit die (modified by CON) based on class. After that, whenever they level up they are guaranteed +1 or +2 hp, not modified. Beyond that, every time a character levels they roll twice (or choose once) from a table of bonuses. One entry on that table is another die worth of hp (modified by CON).
All this means that a level 1 character in L&D is going to have about a d6+CON extra hp compared to most OSR games; as characters level up though they'll have less HP inflation than most OSR games.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1046589All this means that a level 1 character in L&D is going to have about a d6+CON extra hp compared to most OSR games; as characters level up though they'll have less HP inflation than most OSR games.
Seems like a good approach.
Quote from: S'mon;1046599Seems like a good approach.
It's worked well in our L&D games.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1047234It's worked well in our L&D games.
I just got Skyscrapers & Sorcery from RPGnow and I see it does the same, except for starting PCs at 1st level - PCs get 3 + CON mod hp as 0th levellers pre game, plus their 1st level hit die (+CON) when they enter play. So typically 3 + d6 + 2xCON mod. Works out similar to my max hit die + CON mod approach for S&W, or to the '9 hp on 1st hit die' I've been using for White Star.
Overall it definitely feels to me that for OSR/OD&D type games, 1st level PCs with around 6-10 hp (rather than ca 2-6 hp per RAW) is the sweet spot - basically the same sort of hp tallies as in 3e & 5e, except in those editions monsters do more damage so PCs stay squishy. 5e seems very much designed for just starting PCs at 2nd or 3rd anyway so it doesn't feel as much an issue there. 6-10 lets them often take a hit but they still feel in danger, as opposed to eg Hackmaster giving everyone +20 hp, or systems like 4e that give full CON score plus class bonus as hp.
Skyscrapers and Sorcery? What's that about?
Quote from: RPGPundit;1047493Skyscrapers and Sorcery? What's that about?
PWYW here - https://www.rpgnow.com/product/170607/Skyscrapers--Sorcery-White-Box-Rules?
I had never heard of it until I saw a mention on an old Dragonsfoot post. It's inspired by White Star's take on Swords & Wizardry. It's modern-ish era with guns and magic; no strict setting but the default tropes seem close to Dark Conspiracy, which is what interested me. It could also be played more like Shadowrun.
Hmm, guess it flew under the radar.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1047857Hmm, guess it flew under the radar.
From a read through I like it - I like White Star a lot - classes seem pretty good, but the OD&D spell descriptions needed more work, eg charm person appears to be permanent as written. A bit more on world background ideas and campaign styles would be good. The (large) sample adventure is quite interesting but the way it appears to have goblins as a semi-normal part of society is very Shadowrun and wouldn't work for a lot of urban fantasy.
The Traveller style task resolution system is 2d6 + mods, need 9+ to succeed, which feels like a very odd choice to me. I'm never sure why games get you to roll Attribute scores & then don't use those scores. OTOH the "3 points of prior careers" system where you get to add your career to the roll is IMO a little bit of genius, it takes very little time to assign PC careers while giving a lot more character depth plus substantial play impact. I may steal that for other OD&D-based games.
Why did you mention White Star? It's not by the same person, right?
Quote from: RPGPundit;1048033Why did you mention White Star? It's not by the same person, right?
The author of S&S says he was inspired by WS's adaptation of S&W White Box, and it's obvious in the class presentation.
Quote from: S'mon;1048044The author of S&S says he was inspired by WS's adaptation of S&W White Box, and it's obvious in the class presentation.
Ah I see.