Alt-history earns a bit of cred with me due to the fact that, when playing an historical RPG campaign, every moment is a jumping-off point into alt-history.  You could start off being completely historical, but the second the GM and players start mucking about, it's alt.

Historical roleplaying, if it is not completely restricted to re-enactment, is destined to be alt-history to some degree or another.

!i!

Quote from: droogWhen you burnt the guy's character at the stake, though, didn't you restrict his play? I think a dialogue about exactly how mankind arrived at the US political culture would have been my preferred method.

In point of fact, I think there may have been working steam engines in the Middle Ages, though obviously not trains.

What I gave was the abridged version. We actually went on for several sessions and this was a background issue until he began organizing peasants for a revolution against the nobles to demand democracy. At that point, despite long discussions on both character lack of knowledge and general social stimulus for such a government, he could not be ignored as a loon in the setting since he was taking arms against the king.

So, this would have been a case of knowingly deviating from the historical premise.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltSo, this would have been a case of knowingly deviating from the historical premise.

Sounds more like that guy being a dumbarse, if you ask me. But peasant revolts are okay as far as I'm concerned.

Quote from: droogSounds more like that guy being a dumbarse, if you ask me. But peasant revolts are okay as far as I'm concerned.

Well, again, he does the same things in fantasy settings. Does it matter as much? No, because, hey, its fantasy and there might be some sort of bizarro nation that has the concepts of due process under the law, egalitarian punitive sentencing and equal voting rights for all members of society. In medieval France, no so much.

Again, I can go into a long drawn out explanation but the point is not in the details but in the idea that with historical campaigns, you cannot bring your pet beliefs or indulgences but must adhere to the setting or it becomes alt history.

BTW- He made arguments for introducing democracy and by extension all the modern legal rights of the US by basing it on his character knowing of the Roman Republic and Greek democracy.

Bill

did his character have the requisite education to make those conclusions?  if not, then no deal, illegal knowledge, experience penalty.  i've shut a few situations down in that manner.  works pretty effectively too.  

but it's better when you don't have to.  but disruptive players come along all the time, and as mentioned before, historical gaming tends to bring out more anachronistic fiddling.

Quote from: HinterWeltI will admit that the above example is extreme but it happens in lesser degrees whenever you run a historical campaign. It is inevitable but if you are flexible you can work it into a fun game.

It might happen whenever you run a historical campaign, but it doesn't happen with me: I tend to play with players who are willing to not be disruptive.

Quote from: WarthurIt might happen whenever you run a historical campaign, but it doesn't happen with me: I tend to play with players who are willing to not be disruptive.

Ah, I apologize. You are indeed correct. It is just me.

Thank you for enlightening me.

Bill

Quote from: The_ShadowI largely agree. Alt-history can never be a serious intellectual exercise; there are too many philosophical problems. I'd rather just go "what if...?" and have the freedom to be as gonzo as I like, or keep to real history.

good gaming to you,
TheShadow

Actually Alternate History is a serious intellectual exercise.  It is becoming quite popular in academia and numerous historians have written scholarly papers and books on the subject (in academia AH is usually called Counter-Factual).  There are even a number of high-school and college level text books with AH as the premise.

it's a serious exercise as long as you don't get silly, e.g. let's bring AK-47's to the south in the civil war. . . . :rolleyes:

kept within the proper confines of normality, it's an amazing thought experiment. :keke:

Quote from: beeberit's a serious exercise as long as you don't get silly, e.g. let's bring AK-47's to the south in the civil war. . . . :rolleyes:

kept within the proper confines of normality, it's an amazing thought experiment. :keke:

No argument, that kind of thing puts it in the time/dimensional travel or ASB category (like Turtledove's Guns of the South, Flint's 1632 and so on series, or Stirling's Island in the Sea of Time series) which is not strict AH.

But I will say that the cover for Guns of the South is fantastic with Lee standing there with said AK-47.  I remember when the book first came out I hadn't heard anything about it and was just walking down the aisle of a large bookstore.  They had their copies of GOTS in an endcap display by the history section.  I walked by, gave it a glance and continued down the aisle.  I got about 6 steps before it sank in that yes, what I had really seen Lee with an AK-47 on the cover of that book.  I did buy a copy.:hehe:

Quote from: HInterweltAgain, I can go into a long drawn out explanation but the point is not in the details but in the idea that with historical campaigns, you cannot bring your pet beliefs or indulgences but must adhere to the setting or it becomes alt history.

BTW- He made arguments for introducing democracy and by extension all the modern legal rights of the US by basing it on his character knowing of the Roman Republic and Greek democracy.

I would have made him write his manifesto without any reference books.

But that's not really what I'm talking about when I talk about alt history. If that player could concoct a suitably medieval interpretation of democracy, it seems okay to me.

Quote from: HinterWelt2. Players are seriously tempted to introduce anachronisms. I had one guy who did much the same sort of thing with what you mention. He insisted on pushing US style laws, rights and democracy on medieval France. It did not take long before he was burned at the stake.

Hahaha.  That's beautiful.  

I tend to run historical games like clash does, on a smaller scale.  So far I haven't had any problems, but I don't run them that often and when I do they tend to be Old West and WWII with a more cinematic edge--the PCs are more bent on hanging horse thieves and shooting Nazis to really fudge up the big picture.  

I think the problem with alt. history RPGs is that not all designers like to do the excellent research that you (Bill) and Clash do for your games.   They tend to fixate on a cool "what if" idea, but don't take the time logically consider how the "what if" could have occurred and what happens after, even when that's a major part of their game.  So, they might say, "wouldn't it be cool if the Nazis took over Europe?"  And from there, they design a setting where everything just fell into place for Germany and no country ever had a chance, and the characters are thrust into this world to see what they do.  

I don;t really know if I'm being clear here, but I guess what I'm saying is that I don't mind alt history if it's plausible, but it really bugs me when no real thought is put into exactly why events happened like they did.  This requires real research and part of the reason I think some people (not everyone!) design alt. history games is to avoid all that research.  

Pete

the cure for anachronistic interference by players?  good enemies!  if they're too busy hangin' horse thieves or shootin' nazis (thanks, pete!), they'll be less likely to screw things up.

Quote from: beeberthe cure for anachronistic interference by players?  good enemies!  if they're too busy hangin' horse thieves or shootin' nazis (thanks, pete!), they'll be less likely to screw things up.

It's worked for me so far, but again, I don't run historical games very often.

Quote from: pspahnI don;t really know if I'm being clear here, but I guess what I'm saying is that I don't mind alt history if it's plausible, but it really bugs me when no real thought is put into exactly why events happened like they did.  

In case I haven't totally killed this thread yet, RPGPundit just outlined a much better example of what I'm talking about here.

Quote from: pspahnIn case I haven't totally killed this thread yet. . . .

nah, i think the alt hist theme is running out of steam, with the exception of some great posts by the classicists on the board.