I often get inquiries (just got two) about Shades and Roma being used in the class room as teaching aids for history. I immediately advise against it and in the discussion that entails I run up against a lack of recommendations. Usually I will site some GURPS games but I am not sure of their historical veracity (I do not own them, not a judgment of quality). I also point out some of Flying Mice's games if the period is appropriate.
So, are there any recommendations that I can forward on to these teachers?
Please, make the suggestions for rpgs that are still available to an extent either online (pdf, publisher web site) or via distribution (FLGS). So, the rare Book O' History RPG printed in 1979 and selling off e-bay for $500 is right out. ;)
Thanks,
Bill
TSR published some historical books, and I think Pundit has the Roman one. Are they any good?
There was a series of historical books from TSR early in the 2E era, I don't know how historically accurate they are. Avalanche Press also has a historical series, but I would probably skip them since the covers would probably get you fired.
TSR
HR1 (9322) Vikings Campaign Sourcebook
HR2 (9323) Charlemagne’s Paladins Campaign Sourcebook
HR3 (9469) The Crusades Campaign Sourcebook
HR4 (9370) A Mighty Fortress Campaign Sourcebook
HR5 (9425) The Glory of Rome Campaign Sourcebook
Avalanche Pres Sourcebooks
http://www.rpgnow.com/default.php?manufacturers_id=1012
Quote from: HinterWeltSo, are there any recommendations that I can forward on to these teachers?
Well, I have generally had good luck with the GURPS historical sourcebooks. They are mostly written by people with some clue about the subject and don't have a lot of pages devoted to "system", so they are pretty info dense. Also, the sidebars are usually a good source of neat factoids.
TGA
A Mighty Fortress is a model for historical game supplements. Brilliantly written, solidly researched, and chock for of interesting stuff.
The Vikings book is excellent as well, though not as good as A Mighty Fortress.
The Charlemagne book was excellent as well, but I only borrowed and read it once, years ago.
The rest I can't comment on.
-clash
I don't think I'd recommend any of them for a teaching aid though, if the intent is to roleplay to get a feel for the period. Most of the games are too complex for everyone in class to get it and you'd spend several hours or more teaching the game to do a day or so of roleplaying.
Ideally, a teaching tool would be very simple and concentrate on those elements that are being studied more than elements that are typical to an rpg - less adventure, more realistic picture.
Quote from: NicephorusI don't think I'd recommend any of them for a teaching aid though, if the intent is to roleplay to get a feel for the period. Most of the games are too complex for everyone in class to get it and you'd spend several hours or more teaching the game to do a day or so of roleplaying.
Ideally, a teaching tool would be very simple and concentrate on those elements that are being studied more than elements that are typical to an rpg - less adventure, more realistic picture.
I can't really speak to that. These are folks who have played my games which are not lite on the crunch so I assume they know what they are getting into. I usually discuss what they want and it comes out that it is mostly a fin exercise that can span a few months and encourage not only history but a general learning experience (i.e. math, reading comprehension and communication skills). At other times I have had folks straight up just want something their students can read that does not seem like a text book.
Are the TSR books still available in retail?
Thanks,
Bill
Your best bet would be E-Bay or Amazon which has a few used for sale
http://www.amazon.com/Vikings-Campaign-Sourcebook-Advanced-Dungeons/dp/1560761288
You may also be able to find them as a PDF from one of the online sellers.
Quote from: HinterWeltAre the TSR books still available in retail?
Thanks,
Bill
The GURPS Rome book, which (if I recall correctly) was written by CJ Carella, was absolutely magnificent, and definitely useful as a teaching aid.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RockViperYour best bet would be E-Bay or Amazon which has a few used for sale
http://www.amazon.com/Vikings-Campaign-Sourcebook-Advanced-Dungeons/dp/1560761288
You may also be able to find them as a PDF from one of the online sellers.
Onebookshelf has A Mighty Fortress (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=944&). I didn't check for the others.
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceOnebookshelf has A Mighty Fortress (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=944&). I didn't check for the others.
-clash
The PDFs could work. I will add that to my list of recommendations. I forgot to mention the Osprey books. They can be helpful aids.
Thanks Clash.
Any others?
Bill
you might also check on Noble Knight Games. they are goddamn kings among OOP product sellers. I honestly don't understand how they do it. And their prices are quite reasonable.
I got my copy of Gamma World 4th for less than half the usual price elsewhere.
Quote from: J Arcaneyou might also check on Noble Knight Games. they are goddamn kings among OOP product sellers. I honestly don't understand how they do it. And their prices are quite reasonable.
I got my copy of Gamma World 4th for less than half the usual price elsewhere.
I appreciate all the advice on getting OOP titles but unfortunately, some of the teachers I work with are just not that savvy. I am hoping to be able to say "Hey, go to x store or internet site and pick up title y to sure" as opposed to go there and they might have it...although Noble Knight still rocks.
Thanks for the intel folks. Always happt to hear about more historical RPGs.
Bill
Quotenately, some of the teachers I work with are just not that savvy. I am hoping to be able to say "Hey, go to x store or internet site and pick up title y to sure"
"Go to http://www.nobleknight.com/ and search for GURPS Rome" is a complicated directive?
Amazon's also a good place to hit for any book, as they have a lot of 3rd party sellers, and those work through Amazon's purchasing system. Their prices however, have a tendency to gouge more, which is why I recommended Noble Knight.
I've written Legends of the Samurai, a d20 historical Japanese game, as well as Legends of the Dark Ages, covering Europe from 476-800.
Both are available at RPGNow, the former one is in print as well.
Chuck
There are also Green Ronin's Mythic Vistas historical setting books:
Eternal Rome
Medieval Player's Manual
Sidewinder
Skull & Bones: Piracy in the Carribean
Testament
Trojan War
However if you are looking for teaching aids I still think you can't beat GURPS supplements.
Also The Le Games is supposed to be releasing a d20 Vikings game book soon that is supposed to be fairly historically accurate.
RuneQuest 3e did an exceptional "Vikings" pack.
ICE also did "Arabian Nights", "Mythic Greece", "Mythic Egypt" and "Robin Hood", all of which were excellent.
The most recent editions C&S are quite workable.
Pendragon, of course, for the British dark ages.
There's plenty out there.
The GURPS books are good. Rome is excellent, as Pundit said, and so is Russia. Any of them are good, especially if you can get the PDF and simply print a few pages of them for the students.
Russia in fact (and this as someone who did 1/2 of his undergrad History BA as a Russian historian) is the best, and most succinct, history of medieval Russia that I've had the opportunity to read.
Quote from: J Arcane"Go to http://www.nobleknight.com/ and search for GURPS Rome" is a complicated directive?
Amazon's also a good place to hit for any book, as they have a lot of 3rd party sellers, and those work through Amazon's purchasing system. Their prices however, have a tendency to gouge more, which is why I recommended Noble Knight.
No, for you or me. However, I have dealt with some of these teachers who are very reluctant to buy online or even "search for GURPS Rome" on an e-commerce site. In at least one case, the teacher told me she could not get reimbursed unless it was from a b&m store. Don't ask me, I just directed her to the nearest hobby store.
Still, I appreciate the suggestion. It all goes into my "big historical suggestion" email. ;)
Bill
I forgot to mention Paradigm's Caliphate Nights setting. Now that one would make a cool teaching aid.
Green Ronin's Medieval Player's Manual is indeed worth a look. Gives you a good feel for the low Middle Ages. You know, between Charlemagne and the Black Death.
On Charlemagne's Paladins I'm afraid I can't give you an objective assesment, since I was given a "Special thanks to" by the author. Speaking subjectively, it's well done and fairly historical.
FYI, you can get many of the GURPS historical books directly from Warehouse 23:
http://www.warehouse23.com/info/gurps.html#historical
Unfortunately, it looks like they don't have GURPS Russia available there (I like that one too, Joe!), but they do have Imperial Rome and Egypt, which is another of my favorites.
TGA
Quote from: The Good AssyrianFYI, you can get many of the GURPS historical books directly from Warehouse 23:
http://www.warehouse23.com/info/gurps.html#historical
Unfortunately, it looks like they don't have GURPS Russia available there (I like that one too, Joe!), but they do have Imperial Rome and Egypt, which is another of my favorites.
TGA
Yeah, I usually recommend the GURPs books based on the reviews and recommendations I have seen. Also, they are usually available through B&M stores, even if at an increased price.
Thanks,
Bill
Also Monkeygod had two great historical books:
Frost and Fur covers mythic Scandinavia, Russia and Alaska
From Stone to Steel is a must have for any historical gaming buff that uses d20.
The GURPS WWII books are extremely informative. I did a lot of research for the Indians section of Coyote Trail, but I'd be hard put to recommend it as a teaching aid.
Pete
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/historical.html
for a listing of the GURPS Historical books, though that may not be complete and it doesn't include the tech books (Low-Tech gives a very good general overview) or oddball stuff like Atomic Horror, Cliffhangers, or Steampunk which at least cover fictional themes of certain periods as well as some history. It also doesn't list any books that are available on pdf from e23.
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/
for the complete listing; this does have at least list some of the titles available on pdf from e23.
Forgotten Futures (http://www.forgottenfutures.com/). The rules are IMO too complicated but could be simplified or swapped out for some other system. But it's free to download, there was a printed book, and the stories the releases are based on, art, and setting info are included. It's branched out from Scientific Romances (early science fiction) to other topics. Collection 5, 6, 7 and 9 in particular look like they might have some suitable parts.
A Mighty Fortress and Pendragon are great. AMF is available on PDF through DriveThruRPG/RPGNow, Paizo, etc. but not sure the scan quality or completeness of the scan. Pendragon 5th edition is in print with several previous books on PDF through DriveThruRPG/RPGNow.
Some of the Call of Cthulhu books are very thorough, likely with material directly cribbed from reference sources. The 1920s/Investigators books for example. Along a similar line is Castle Falkenstein's Comme Il Faut book which I've been told is a repackaging of source material with some game stats put in places. Some other parts of CF are less reliable and/or more fantastic than historical.
I wouldn't recomend any gaming books are source material for teaching but as a way to get/maintain students' interest in history some should be ok. As long as the teachers and students are aware rpgs tend towards pulpy fantastic versions of historical periods.
Quote from: joewolzThe GURPS books are good. Rome is excellent, as Pundit said, and so is Russia. Any of them are good, especially if you can get the PDF and simply print a few pages of them for the students.
Russia in fact (and this as someone who did 1/2 of his undergrad History BA as a Russian historian) is the best, and most succinct, history of medieval Russia that I've had the opportunity to read.
There some guys in Melbourne who did a medieval Russian game called "Rus", which is gloriously indpendent in its style (i.e., downright unprofessional) but with some excellent content.
But heck, there sure is a lot of Russians in Melbourne.
GURPS Russia is one of those books I kick myself for not getting when it first came out.
While not a historical rpg, Mythic Russia (http://www.firebird-productions.com/) looks pretty good from the site and what I've read elsewhere. The price tag is prohibitive for me to just spend sight unseen.
Quote from: ConanMKFrom Stone to Steel is a must have for any historical gaming buff that uses d20.
I actually have that one. I would be worried it would be too referency. Useful mind you, but not so sure it would be a stand alone book that woul dfit what they seem to be looking for.
Thanks though,
Bill