TheRPGSite

Which rpg system best handles ANY genre? GURPS and HERO used to be giants but, Savage Worlds is getting bigger and bigger. Has the new kid taken over the block or are the giants just sleeping?

If your players convinced you to run a game about spacefaring, dimension-hopping, psychic ninja-cops, which system do you think gets it done?

Now personally I prefer Hero, as it is my go to system. I like GURPS but haven't played or ran in a very long time. Savage Worlds is a mystery to me, mainly because of all I have invested in the first two, another generic system didn't seem like it would be that useful for me, and I despise exploding dice. That said, Hero and Gurps scale differently and their paradigm is somewhat different. GURPS is a bit grittier or "realistic" and Hero more cinematic and "heroic" in scale. Either can be used effectively, but based on my tastes, Hero is always my first choice.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1095432Which rpg system best handles ANY genre? GURPS and HERO used to be giants but, Savage Worlds is getting bigger and bigger. Has the new kid taken over the block or are the giants just sleeping?

If your players convinced you to run a game about spacefaring, dimension-hopping, psychic ninja-cops, which system do you think gets it done?

ANY Genre? GURPS 4e although when it comes to superheroics HERO system is more straightforward than GURPS.

GURPS 4th edition fixed the issue with making powers. For example the fan made GURPS advantages
gurpsland.no-ip.org/pdf/GURPS4eAdvantages.pdf


However HERO System (5th or 6th edition) has a tad better presentation and their take has been around longer. But since GURPS handle realism way better I give the nod to GURPS.

The reality for me is that I continue to use Hero System for Superhero campaigns and GURPS for my Majestic Wilderlands.

Savage Worlds is fine, but it has a different and lighter take on mechanics. Like using Runequest 6/Mythras for Fantasy Roleplaying versus D&D 5e. Both got options both are good but Mythras has a more detailed take on the topic.

I think the one people need to keep an eye on is the AGE system. For me that hits the lighter generic sweet spot. They have Dragon Age, Fantasy Age, Blue Rose, Modern Age, and the Expanse out already. The only problem is that they are not as open to 3PP as Pinnacle is which will hurt it in the long run.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1095432Which rpg system best handles ANY genre? GURPS and HERO used to be giants but, Savage Worlds is getting bigger and bigger. Has the new kid taken over the block or are the giants just sleeping?

If your players convinced you to run a game about spacefaring, dimension-hopping, psychic ninja-cops, which system do you think gets it done?

Any Genre? Savage Worlds

Your extradimensional ninja cops? Savage Worlds.

Savage Worlds player characters are always action heroes that can handle at least 3x the number of equally skilled normal dudes. SW does this extremely well and much quicker than the other two (though I've only read GURPS 4e).
Savage Worlds isn't completely universal and works best with you splice in one or two of the other setting books to your campaign. For example, we're having a great time with a One-piece campaign by splicing 50 fathoms with the Superpowers Companion and the new core rule book.

When you are in the broad genre Savage Worlds supports, in my opinion it works better than something like GURPS. If you need to be playing regular people, then GURPS handles that way better.

If I want to play shell hoping transhumans that must fight off Rifts demons on hover bikes riding a massive train, then Savage Worlds will handle that way easier and you get custom hover bikes per player, meanwhile GURPS gets really upset that you are on a vehicle and only begrudgingly gives out a list of basic vehicles because people were mean to them about their last general vehicle book.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1095432Which rpg system best handles ANY genre? GURPS and HERO used to be giants but, Savage Worlds is getting bigger and bigger. Has the new kid taken over the block or are the giants just sleeping?

If your players convinced you to run a game about spacefaring, dimension-hopping, psychic ninja-cops, which system do you think gets it done?

Any Genre? GURPS 4e

Your extradimensional ninja cops? Savage Worlds.

Savage Worlds player characters are always action heroes that can handle at least 3x the number of equally skilled normal dudes. SW does this extremely well and much quicker than the other two (though I've only read GURPS 4e).
Savage Worlds isn't completely universal and works best with you splice in one or two of the other setting books to your campaign. For example, we're having a great time with a One-piece campaign by splicing 50 fathoms with the Superpowers Companion and the new core rule book.

When you are in the broad genre Savage Worlds supports, in my opinion it works better than something like GURPS. If you need to be playing regular people, then GURPS handles that way better.

If I want to play shell hoping transhumans that must fight off Rifts demons on hover bikes riding a massive train, then Savage Worlds will handle that way easier and you get custom hover bikes per player, meanwhile GURPS gets really upset that you are on a vehicle and only begrudgingly gives out a list of basic vehicles because people were mean to them about their last general vehicle book.

All three handle the spectrum of known genres in their own right. In terms of "who does it best" - it depends on your abstraction-to-crunch ratio tolerance.

If you prefer lighter, faster, bigger - Savage Worlds
If you want harder, tighter, visceral - GURPS

If you want HERO system - HERO.

LOL I've never used HERO. I speak about it with ZERO authority.

My personal opinion is that no system supports all genres equally. Combat systems particularly may be geared to more heroic or more cinematic or more gritty, with lots of knobs and dials to get specific feels. Different genres may also respond to abstractions in various parts of the system in different ways.

That said, my personal opinion is that Hero does super heroes better than GURPS while GURPS does most other genres better than Hero. Savage Worlds I think would have a different mix.

Frank

GURPS 4th edition has expanded it ability to handle cinematic campaign. Not just by cool powers and abilities but giving options to beef up characters. Mainly by using higher point totals with increased hit point which can be purchased separately from Strength.

Normally there is a cap in realistic campaign to how far hit points can vary from Strength in realistic campaigns, but for cinematic campaign, tweak to suit. In conjunction with cinematic advantages and increased access to building powers, means that GURPS is capable of handling the extraordinary stuff. Just has Hero since 3rd edition has gotten better at handling realistic campaigns.

GURPS gets my vote. I think it's a bit more flexible across a wide variety of genres and playstyles. It's not really a difficult system at all, but it's developed an  underserved reputation for being crazy crunch (which it can be, in the same way that most restaurant menus have the potential to serve up disgusting combinations of food).

Quote from: estar;1095451GURPS 4th edition has expanded it ability to handle cinematic campaign. Not just by cool powers and abilities but giving options to beef up characters. Mainly by using higher point totals with increased hit point which can be purchased separately from Strength.

Normally there is a cap in realistic campaign to how far hit points can vary from Strength in realistic campaigns, but for cinematic campaign, tweak to suit. In conjunction with cinematic advantages and increased access to building powers, means that GURPS is capable of handling the extraordinary stuff. Just has Hero since 3rd edition has gotten better at handling realistic campaigns.

Ah, that's good. I played GURPS Supers way back in 1989 or so and it just didn't feel very super-heroic.

Frank

Quote from: ffilz;1095463Ah, that's good. I played GURPS Supers way back in 1989 or so and it just didn't feel very super-heroic.

Frank

You are 100% correct in that assessment for 1st to 3rd edition Supers.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1095432Which rpg system best handles ANY genre? GURPS and HERO used to be giants but, Savage Worlds is getting bigger and bigger. Has the new kid taken over the block or are the giants just sleeping?...

Savage Worlds has taken over the block precisely because the "big dogs" are sleeping.

For two reasons:

1- Pinnacle being so open to 3PP has made a big difference.

2- 3PP have picked it up because the system is very rules light/medium-ish and easily modded.

And I don't even like SW - but I know reality when I see it. (played it, found it's wound mechanic very annoying, and I have a bias against die-step systems.)

GURPS and HERO continue to fade because they do not hit those two points very well.

HERO is just too bloody complicated. I've played rules-as-written superhero combat, and damn its slow. Why anyone would willingly subject themselves to that mess - I do not know. HERO need an overhaul before it gains any more traction.

GURPS is too much of a toolkit to gain widespread use. SJ Games needs to release, or allow 3PP release of complete games with specific settings in the vein of the Capitan Alatrise RPG to get back on the radar of most gamers.

GURPS Dungeon Fantasy was a step in the right direction. But again, where they could have simplified things in the system, they kept their bells and whistles, which I think is a mistake in what to me would be an obvious flagship release.

Slightly OT: One of the best changes friends in my gaming group said they did with Gurps was go from 3d6 to a 2d10 roll. They liked the way the pyramid curve worked out for more experienced characters.

And it's in exploring changes like that with new complete games and settings that could get Gurps more on the general awareness radar of the hobby.

I'm a fan of GURPS 4e, and for the sheer level of detail, shopping lists, and genre ideas it would serve anyone well. Even just as a generic resource for ideas and a sounding board for reality checks.

I've dived into HERO 6e lately, and I like the approach. I feel this is a more cinematic game. It appeals to me because I generally don't care about shopping, coin counting or details like that.

The new SWADE is tuned up, it reads well. I haven't run SW in some time and I'm interested in trying out Rifts when I get my box set. However, I like a little crunch. SW is often a little lighter to my tastes and I still find the dice mechanic wonky / swingy. Likely not as impactful as I imagine. The fact is it plays fast, the card-based initiative is genius, and there are plenty of settings/plot-point campaigns to keep a busy GM happy for years.

I would suggest you choose the one that tickles your fancy the most. What do you envision game play to be like at your table? What are your pet-peaves re: system? Which one of these engines fits YOU best (and your table...)? Any of them could work, it comes down to if you want to make one work for you.

P.S. - An often overlooked generic game - Mutants & Masterminds 3e. It reads a lot like HERO with less crunch. It can do other genres as aptly as HERO could. A solid alternative to those who don't feel like they could handle the options in HERO. Also note, Fantasy Hero Complete and Champions Complete are good alternatives to the whole shebang of HERO for those looking to pick it up faster. P.S.S - The Basic Heroes Handbook for MM3e is an easier to learn, faster to create characters version of the full MM3e, so some feel MM3e is too crunchy and they have a tool for that. P.S.S.S - GURPS Fantasy probably serves as a good entry point as well with tons of ready-to-play things pre-baked for the busy GM.

(Which leads us right back the fact that any of these games handle generic... well.)

I should also mention Open D6 is a solid (if a little dated) option. The new Mythic D6 game is a nice polished combination of Legend D6 and Jerry Grayson's D6 Powers. It's more customizable from a powers perspective than SWADE, but plays as fast.

I've never played HERO, and have an actively deeply visceral dislike of Savage Worlds. So for me personally, I'd go with Gurps. It's been years since I've played it though.

Ooo yeah - OpenD6 is pretty good.


BUT... I wouldn't use it for Supers... as there are better options. But in terms of overall genre-play, OpenD6 is excellent. I'd put it right up there with Savage Worlds. But between them - I'll take SW.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1095432Which rpg system best handles ANY genre? GURPS and HERO used to be giants but, Savage Worlds is getting bigger and bigger. Has the new kid taken over the block or are the giants just sleeping?

Savage Worlds is pop right now still because there is no HERO 7 or GURPS 5.

Plus, Savage Worlds looks more indie. So bought.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1095432Which rpg system best handles ANY genre? GURPS and HERO used to be giants but, Savage Worlds is getting bigger and bigger. Has the new kid taken over the block or are the giants just sleeping?

If your players convinced you to run a game about spacefaring, dimension-hopping, psychic ninja-cops, which system do you think gets it done?

FATE or FAE. GURPS and SW can do it, too, I'm sure. I'm also in the "HERO is too fiddly" camp, but I imagine you could go there. The game sounds over the top, though, so something like SW might be your ticket.

You could also grab Class Warfare for Dungeon World and create classes that fit. The classes are modular, so you can shove several of them into what you want, with the spells (if you wanted to use them) serving as psychic abilities.  Beyond that, of the choices presented, have to say SW.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1095432Which rpg system best handles ANY genre? GURPS and HERO used to be giants but, Savage Worlds is getting bigger and bigger. Has the new kid taken over the block or are the giants just sleeping?

If your players convinced you to run a game about spacefaring, dimension-hopping, psychic ninja-cops, which system do you think gets it done?

I like all three systems for different reasons. Hero wins when it comes to multi-genre games for me, but it is a complex system. The problem with Gurps is that you need to decide if you're using Spells (and all the mechanics that come with it) or just powers, or both. The problem I have with SW is that every game feels pulp.

As Trechiron mentioned, MM3 is also a contender for the multi-genre space. That would probably be my first choice.

Open D6 is a poor choice for multi-genre games, since you first need to decide which of the three games you're using (fantasy, adv, or space) since they have different att/skill schemas. And honestly, alot of it just sucks: ads and disads, too many rolls, magic system is incomprehensible. I haven't seen Mythic 6 so I can't comment on that.

To the core question, I personally would pick GURPS.

I think GURPS and HERO occupy similar points on the crunch spectrum, both very traditional in their approach and allowing a lot of fine precision in character build. GURPS started from a 'real world' verisimilitude baseline, whilst HERO started from a 'comic book' verisimilitude baseline however they have both built out to increase the overlap in their utility.

I found GURPS when looking for an alternative to genre specific games (originally I picked up 2e and read it but didn't get it so sold it. When 3e came out I tried again and it clicked). Because I had GURPS I never bothered with HERO; if I had found HERO first maybe my preferences would have been different. Who can say?

I see Savage Worlds as different in a couple of key ways. It isn't anywhere near as granular and that both limits your ability to mechanically tune your character and the growth that can be achieved. This was a negative from my group's perspective and though we have played a couple of short SW campaigns they were ultimately unsatisfying. If those things are less important to your group then SW is a decent game that can also fill the generic niche.

Interesting to see M&M mentioned. It used to be a bit of a darling and get loads of mentions across multiple forums. I rarely see it mentioned at all, these days. I wonder what changed?

I've read through SW, just couldn't get into it.


HERO and GURPS both work very well for a wide variety of things. 4th edition GURPS increased the flexibility, but I'd still rate HERO as the more flexible of the two. GURPS is more about choosing options which could become confusing in a genre hopping campaign. HERO is built around powers, so at least in theory it would be a little more consistent hopping from genre to genre, although ultimately it comes down to the GM and either could be used.

I think GURPS is a little more user friendly to the GM, more mix and match, where HERO is a lot of DIY for the GM. LEGO vs a lump of clay.

Both get knocked for being complex, but I think that is overblown. The core rules for both are actually pretty simple. What is complicated is all the stuff to allow the games to run just about anything. Boiled down to a single genre and specific setting, you could have a surprisingly small rule book for either game.

My personal preference is generally to HERO, but GURPS works just fine.

All 3 handle pretty much every genre, and best is subjective, but I'd personally go with GURPS. The tools to make whatever you want are in the basic set, and most other books just show you how to make certain things with the rules in the basic set.

Savage Worlds, though I'm not a personal fan of the system, does get a shoutout from me for having Lankhmar stuff. If you want to adventure in the world of Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, Savage Worlds has the tools for that.

Quote from: dbm;1095534I think GURPS and HERO occupy similar points on the crunch spectrum, both very traditional in their approach and allowing a lot of fine precision in character build. GURPS started from a 'real world' verisimilitude baseline, whilst HERO started from a 'comic book' verisimilitude baseline however they have both built out to increase the overlap in their utility.

I think this is a very good point. The two games started off on opposite ends of the spectrum and both have done a good job expanding from that point. As you approach their initial starting points, naturally the games become stronger because that is ultimately what their core assumptions were based around.

Quote from: Jaeger;1095474Savage Worlds has taken over the block precisely because the "big dogs" are sleeping.

For two reasons:

1- Pinnacle being so open to 3PP has made a big difference.

2- 3PP have picked it up because the system is very rules light/medium-ish and easily modded.

And I don't even like SW - but I know reality when I see it. (played it, found it's wound mechanic very annoying, and I have a bias against die-step systems.)

GURPS and HERO continue to fade because they do not hit those two points very well.

HERO is just too bloody complicated. I've played rules-as-written superhero combat, and damn its slow. Why anyone would willingly subject themselves to that mess - I do not know. HERO need an overhaul before it gains any more traction.

GURPS is too much of a toolkit to gain widespread use. SJ Games needs to release, or allow 3PP release of complete games with specific settings in the vein of the Capitan Alatrise RPG to get back on the radar of most gamers.

GURPS Dungeon Fantasy was a step in the right direction. But again, where they could have simplified things in the system, they kept their bells and whistles, which I think is a mistake in what to me would be an obvious flagship release.

Seconded and pretty much how I feel.

It is also not helped that neither Hero nor Gurps try to break any new ground with rules and to try and get new or older fans who left say for Savage Worlds back in the fold. I'm not saying ignore those who do not want to see any change. Yet as time goes on and with newer editions for both it seems they are losing sales to Savage Worlds with enough gamers voting with their wallets and going with easier rules light systems. Yes SW is not complete in the core book yet because it is easier to use many will overlook that in favor of it being easier to run. Both HG and SJG seemed to think all that was needed was better production values and suddenly a whole bunch of new players would come out of the wood work. Instead many saw that beyond production values nothing really was different and both companies stubbornly want to only pander to older fans and once again voted with their wallets.

At least with Gurps SJW kept the books mostly in print for quite some time and then made most of them POD. Hero Games sat on their collective asses and when much of their print material including Book one of the core went out of print took forever to take the necessary steps to get them into POD. If like myself I like mostly print books I'm not going to purchase book one in PDF and Book two of the core in print. When it was finally done it was too little too late. At least the Gurps core while two book are a manageable size and not too intimidating for those interested in getting into Gurps. Hero Games doubled down with 6E. Already many were intimidated and not interested in reading let alone looking through something that looks and reads like a college textbook they went with two volumes of the same in 6E.

Unless both companies are willing to take a risk both financially and to lose some of their fans and release something less complex and easier to learn and in decently sized format SW will always be in first place. Many Gamers tastes have changed over the years and either both adapt to that or remain the second fiddle to SW. Unless the gaming community suffers a collective lobotomy where they are forced to like complex, crunchy rpgs again I jus don't see either getting that popular again. Still played of course popular as they were probably not if ever.

As for Mutants and Masterminds 3E I find their damage save too fiddly imo. One could shot with enough damage can take a character or major npc out too easily. I still like how Hero System handles the damage.

A big point in Savage Worlds favor is that I consider it there easiest game to GM.

Now I don't mean easiest for you to GM, I mean it requires the least GM skill to get a functional game going. It doesn't have so many rules as to be way too hard to remember, but it has enough rules that your can lean on the system to be fun by itself for something like combat.

But Savage Worlds is also not a toolkit, it's a system. This makes it more limited as a generic, but way more accessible.

Thanks for all the insightful responses, folks.

While SW covers a lot if ground and has interesting rules, I prefer GURPS 4e: less fiddly than HERO but, more options than SW.

Plus, best supplemental rpg library *ever*.

On M&M, I've been working on a "sword & sorcery" hack, since Warriors & Warlocks didn't check enough boxes. My Shadowrun hack using M&M is a WIP, as well.

Despite my stated dislike of SW, I'm actually considering giving the game a "second chance", but am awaiting the new edition due out later this summer. I already know I can't play the current edition - it's some of the stated changes they're looking to make that kind of pique my interest. It'll be interesting to see if my opinion of it changes or not when that time comes.

I was a diehard GURPS fan for decades, but for the last decade or so Savage Worlds ended up being my main system of choice, chiefly because of its ease of access and easily used sourcebooks. Plus I could use a GURPS sourcebook with SW with minimal effort.

Hero I liked, but it stilll harbors deep, old wargaming roots and my best experiences with Hero were with GMs who seemed to ignore a ton of rules in their own games. I ran it for a bit but ironically my old group were such GURPS diehards they couldn't stand Hero's specific differences.

Still, these days Cypher System has mostly taken over from all three of the above for me. It's a bit "deeper" in potential design than Savage Worlds while being very easy to run, and its genre rules thanks to the system are so simple to use that I've leaned heavily on it for most of my gaming over the last two years now. That said....I am running Cypher System on Saturdays (a SF/fantasy mashup) and Savage Worlds (a horror/supers mashup) on Wednesdays, so I'm using both systems for genres that they support well.

I still miss the good old days with GURPS, but not enough to drag it out anymore, and have only used it for about 6 campaigns or single shots over the last decade or so.

Quote from: sureshot;1095560It is also not helped that neither Hero nor Gurps try to break any new ground with rules and to try and get new or older fans who left say for Savage Worlds back in the fold. I'm not saying ignore those who do not want to see any change. Yet as time goes on and with newer editions for both it seems they are losing sales to Savage Worlds with enough gamers voting with their wallets and going with easier rules light systems. Yes SW is not complete in the core book yet because it is easier to use many will overlook that in favor of it being easier to run. Both HG and SJG seemed to think all that was needed was better production values and suddenly a whole bunch of new players would come out of the wood work. Instead many saw that beyond production values nothing really was different and both companies stubbornly want to only pander to older fans and once again voted with their wallets.

There's an alternative: make a better pitch about the advantages that your game's complexity offers and go aggressively after those that tout rules light as being principally the way to go. As I see it, more complex, simuilationist approaches have played it very defensively for many, many years and the result is that these games have been grinded between gamist approaches a la D&D and narrativist games a la PbtA. And the nonsense that both sides spread. I am not aware of any noteworthy RPG designer of more complex games going out there and taking a stand for these types of games. Where is Steve Jackson?

I mean, when I look at the internet I see plenty of hogwash repeated ad nauseam, like d100 offering no advantages over d20, without anyone else going "Hold on for a second" and challenging this. It has been far too easy denouncing more complex games in the more recent past.

That is somethign that should change.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1095574Plus, best supplemental rpg library *ever*.

I only use the GURPS library from GURPS.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1095617There's an alternative: make a better pitch about the advantages that your game's complexity offers and go aggressively after those that tout rules light as being principally the way to go. As I see it, more complex, simuilationist approaches have played it very defensively for many, many years and the result is that these games have been grinded between gamist approaches a la D&D and narrativist games a la PbtA. And the nonsense that both sides spread. I am not aware of any noteworthy RPG designer of more complex games going out there and taking a stand for these types of games. Where is Steve Jackson?

No thank you unless either company employs and pays me for my time to do so I'm not giving any of them any free advertising. Especially not when they made the mistake of catering to and only older fans. It is not my job to do the work of SJG or HG to present and market their rpgs better. It is too much work for myself at least and easier to sell Savage Worlds as the easier alternative.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1095617I mean, when I look at the internet I see plenty of hogwash repeated ad nauseam, like d100 offering no advantages over d20, without anyone else going "Hold on for a second" and challenging this. It has been far too easy denouncing more complex games in the more recent past.

That is true yet I don't take everything written on gaming forums as the absolute truth. Star Wars D6 did nothing to fix the power level of Jedi beyond essentially telling the GM to screw over the player when necessary because they could not be bothered to fix how powerful Jedi are in that version of the rpg. I tend to either read or listen to product reviews or videos of actual play of the rpg.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1095617That is somethign that should change.

It should yet unless rpg companies pay people for their time to do so it is not. As I said it is for the owners of the rpg to present their IP in a better manner and not the job of the player base to do so.

HERO's failure is company driven. They doubled down on 6th, and lost more fan base than they picked up and seem to have driven the company onto the rocks of near insolvency. Too little to late to approve 3rd party offerings (an issue the original HERO Games had no issue with pursuing), and lack of interest or capital to turn out new material to sell to the fans. It was only after the company was on its last legs and basically abandoned by the shareholders / primary authors that they finally provided an all in one single genre book as a last gasp, that seems to have breathed enough life into the company to allow them to follow it with a second. HERO was doing fine under 5th ed (2002-2007, being the most productive period in the games history, 6th seems to have been the death blow.

GURPS seems to be doing fine, just looking for the more efficient / profitable way to provide product (PDF, POD, limited print, KS/pre-orders). Honestly after 33 years they are starting to run out of stuff to GURPSify. Despite claims of its impeding demise, I don't see GURPS going away. When the last GURPS players dies off, the heirs of SJG will still be raking in money on quirky card games, pocket games and the occasional revival of an out of print classic. More game companies should have their problems.  


SW does seem to have hit a sweet spot for many, and that is great. I don't really get it, but I don't have to. So long as there are enough fans to pay the bills, I don't see the need to appeal to every gamer out there.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1095681HERO was doing fine under 5th ed (2002-2007, being the most productive period in the games history, 6th seems to have been the death blow.

I started playing in a Fantasy Hero 5e campaign (with the revised 5e rules) over a year ago and I was so genuinely surprised at how good it is. I ran a lot of Champions 1e and played some others up to 4e, and I was starting to think it was just getting more complicated than it needed to be. Then I picked up 5e, started playing, and realized what a wonderfully designed system it is. What little I have seen of 6e doesn't interest me. 5e is just right. Maybe GURPS does realistic a bit more realistic, but once you get character generation out of the way, Hero 5e isn't all that much work.

Quote from: sureshot;1095677It should yet unless rpg companies pay people for their time to do so it is not. As I said it is for the owners of the rpg to present their IP in a better manner and not the job of the player base to do so.

Agreed. I don't think I ever said anything to the contrary.

Quote from: Lynn;1095692I started playing in a Fantasy Hero 5e campaign (with the revised 5e rules) over a year ago and I was so genuinely surprised at how good it is. I ran a lot of Champions 1e and played some others up to 4e, and I was starting to think it was just getting more complicated than it needed to be. Then I picked up 5e, started playing, and realized what a wonderfully designed system it is. What little I have seen of 6e doesn't interest me. 5e is just right. Maybe GURPS does realistic a bit more realistic, but once you get character generation out of the way, Hero 5e isn't all that much work.

5th looks intimidating due to its size, but a lot of that is just explanation and examples. The game isn't really changed much from 4th except to clean up and clarify a few things.

6th took off in a direction I wasn't interested in following, but I still would have bought game resources if they hadn't just cranked out retread 5th ed books I already owned with a 6th ed label slapped on the cover. The 5th ed supplements were quite good, and many did address a major complaint about HERO. The need to build everything from scratch. There were lots of books with pre-built powers, gadgets, equipment, character concepts, NPC etc that did most of the heavy work.

I think a version of HERO sold as a more standard game with pre-built powers in place of the DIY style would surprise people with how easy the game can be. Leave the tool box aspect for advanced players. Sure it is never going to be a rules light game, but closing the cover on all the whirring gears and springs lowers the anxiety level.

That is how the non-supers 3rd ed games worked, Danger International, Justice Inc and Fantasy Hero didn't have pages of rules to build stuff (Ok FH did have the spell creation section, which was kind of stripped down Champions), you just bought Bump or Direction, or Pain Tolerance etc, paid your points and moved on. You didn't try to build it. Champions was always out there as a tool kit if somebody needed a special ability not already covered.

Quote from: camazotz;1095605these days Cypher System has mostly taken over from all three of the above for me. It's a bit "deeper" in potential design than Savage Worlds while being very easy to run, and its genre rules thanks to the system are so simple to use that I've leaned heavily on it for most of my gaming over the last two years now.

Cypher has potential, and I tried the original but it just fell short of what we were looking for. It wasn't generic enough. It was more case of having many micro-classes that you mix together to create your character, and the GM was encouraged to re-mix them for a specific campaign but there was no real support for how to do that.

I'm interested in the new version which is due in September. If it has more support for how to use the system I'll check it out again.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1095681HERO's failure is company driven. They doubled down on 6th, and lost more fan base than they picked up and seem to have driven the company onto the rocks of near insolvency. Too little to late to approve 3rd party offerings (an issue the original HERO Games had no issue with pursuing), and lack of interest or capital to turn out new material to sell to the fans. It was only after the company was on its last legs and basically abandoned by the shareholders / primary authors that they finally provided an all in one single genre book as a last gasp, that seems to have breathed enough life into the company to allow them to follow it with a second. HERO was doing fine under 5th ed (2002-2007, being the most productive period in the games history, 6th seems to have been the death blow.

There were many. 6e was one of them. A couple of others:

1. Selling their chief IP, the Champions Universe, for a quick cash infusion rather than licensing it for ongoing revenues. To my knowledge, the reversion of ownership clause in the sale has not been triggered. And Champions Online has passed into new hands, so I am completely clueless as to how difficult and expensive it would be for the current company to try to invoke that clause if the originally-stated preconditions were to be met.
2. "Write what you want" policy for new product rather than "write what will sell". This brought the world Lucha Libre HERO, in English only at that. This also prevented the publication of a PRIMUS supplement for 6e, because their chosen author for the book "wasn't feeling it" and they refused to enlist anyone else for the project.

Quote from: RandyB;1095726There were many. 6e was one of them. A couple of others:

1. Selling their chief IP, the Champions Universe, for a quick cash infusion rather than licensing it for ongoing revenues. To my knowledge, the reversion of ownership clause in the sale has not been triggered. And Champions Online has passed into new hands, so I am completely clueless as to how difficult and expensive it would be for the current company to try to invoke that clause if the originally-stated preconditions were to be met.
2. "Write what you want" policy for new product rather than "write what will sell". This brought the world Lucha Libre HERO, in English only at that. This also prevented the publication of a PRIMUS supplement for 6e, because their chosen author for the book "wasn't feeling it" and they refused to enlist anyone else for the project.

   The company was also seeing a downturn before 6E was announced, to the point that they encouraged people to consider buying directly from them instead of from game stores.

One inherent problem with games that use the detail of the rules to promote immersion aka "rules heavy" games, is that many OSR games are better at simulation by virtue of players playing regular fit humans and people have an intuitive understanding of those limits.

The second problem is that rules heavy games are harder to make and require more time/effort, meanwhile the hobby doesn't really justify that effort as people  now expect D&D 5e production values or better for more complicated games.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1095705That is how the non-supers 3rd ed games worked, Danger International, Justice Inc and Fantasy Hero didn't have pages of rules to build stuff (Ok FH did have the spell creation section, which was kind of stripped down Champions), you just bought Bump or Direction, or Pain Tolerance etc, paid your points and moved on. You didn't try to build it. Champions was always out there as a tool kit if somebody needed a special ability not already covered.

Yes, true. I skipped most of that. In the game I am playing, the players (and the GM) mostly just ran with the maxima limitations, buying stuff (not having to buy weapons as powers) and ignored much of the FH packages. I think I have the 4e 'Hero System', the real split, but never actually played it.

I don't know why many Hero fans expected that HG would not re-release the same material for 6E. Every other company that releases a new edition usually does the exact same thing. So why some assumed it would be different when HG never said they would not re-release the same material again is beyond me. I could get being surprised if the person was new to the hobby. Otherwise it was a very strange assumption to make when no evidence was presented pointing to them doing the opposite.

All it really comes down too is enoughgamers not wanting that level of complexity that both HS and Gurps have. They realized both companies wanted to cater only to existing fans. With the same fans very resistant to change. One mentions new edition and they just assume it will fail. The current version is as well that is ignored. Without any real useful suggestions beyond "change nothing!". Which as we can see keeping the status quo has been doing wonders for HG. At least SJG has other products they can fall back on like Munchkin and Ogre. Even SJG choice of newer 4E books has been really odd and strange. I kind of can see why they did 4E Discworld as many people read and are still fans of the series. Doing a 4E version of Mars Attacks when their fans have been asking for a 4E version of Gurps Vehicles. Yeah I know "it is still being worked on" until I see it either available for legal PDF for downlaod or at the LGS it is vaporware to me as far as I'm concerned.

I played Savage Worlds years ago, so I don't know if this has changed, but my main problem with that game was that PCs survived only by increasing the amount of damage they can soak. There wasn't a significant way to make a character harder to hit. This rules out any sort of sci-fi or gun-heavy campaign.

For me, Champions or (modified) OD&D would be my go-to choice for a multi-genre game. Mostly because they are the games I'm most familiar with.

Quote from: estar;1095435ANY Genre? GURPS 4e although when it comes to superheroics HERO system is more straightforward than GURPS.

GURPS 4th edition fixed the issue with making powers. For example the fan made GURPS advantages
gurpsland.no-ip.org/pdf/GURPS4eAdvantages.pdf


However HERO System (5th or 6th edition) has a tad better presentation and their take has been around longer. But since GURPS handle realism way better I give the nod to GURPS.

The reality for me is that I continue to use Hero System for Superhero campaigns and GURPS for my Majestic Wilderlands.

Savage Worlds is fine, but it has a different and lighter take on mechanics. Like using Runequest 6/Mythras for Fantasy Roleplaying versus D&D 5e. Both got options both are good but Mythras has a more detailed take on the topic.

I think the one people need to keep an eye on is the AGE system. For me that hits the lighter generic sweet spot. They have Dragon Age, Fantasy Age, Blue Rose, Modern Age, and the Expanse out already. The only problem is that they are not as open to 3PP as Pinnacle is which will hurt it in the long run.

Agreed 100%

Another advantage of AGE over GURPS/Hero you have all the game in one book, you don't need to add/remove stuff to play genre X (of the ones they have published). Still the GURPS world books are such a great wealth of info, even if their take on precolombine cultures is a bit too on the noble savage for my taste. (Haven't found one that doesn't have the exact same defect)

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1095766I played Savage Worlds years ago, so I don't know if this has changed, but my main problem with that game was that PCs survived only by increasing the amount of damage they can soak. There wasn't a significant way to make a character harder to hit. This rules out any sort of sci-fi or gun-heavy campaign.

Cover was always in the game?

Quote from: sureshot;1095560As for Mutants and Masterminds 3E I find their damage save too fiddly imo. One could shot with enough damage can take a character or major npc out too easily. I still like how Hero System handles the damage.

We had similar issues with the damage, but fixed it with a pretty simple house rule;

PCs and other main characters have 50 hit points, are staggered at 20 hp and incapacitated at 0. Minions have 10 hp and are incapacitated at 0. Recoveries restore 10 hp. When damage is inflicted the attacker rolls 1d20+ranks for damage. The defender subtracts the appropriate save modifier (not a roll, just the modifer) from the damage and the rest from their hit points.

Ex. Electroshock launches a lightning bolt (12 ranks) at Titanic (Toughness 15). Electroshock rolls a 14 and adds his 12 ranks for a total of 26 damage. Titanic subtracts his toughness and subtracts the remaining 11 from his hit points. Titanic is a Hulk-like regeneration style tank (instead of impervious toughness) so he gets a recovery as a free action on his turn and removes 10 of the 11 points of damage.

"It tickles," Titanic quips as he brushes off the point of impact and then leaps at Electroshock.

* * * *

The other thing I prefer about M&M3e (and the previous editions for that matter) compared to the HERO System is that it makes a clear distinction between Complications (stuff like secret identities, hunted and dependent NPCs) and actual physical limitations (vulnerabilities, physical transformation, etc.) in that only the latter actually got you more build points while the former were opportunities to gain Hero Points in game.

In other words, you couldn't get extra build points just by giving yourself a bunch of role-playing hooks the GM actually has to manage and remember to include lest your flaws not actually be flaws. If the current adventure really doesn't have any situation where a complication comes up, it just doesn't come up; the GM doesn't have to throw in something involving your DNPC back home (or keep track that it needs to come up ASAP when appropriate) just because the once/session 8- roll happened to pop (not to mention the occasional flaw pile-ups I saw in large groups where multiple hunted/secret identity/dnpc popped all at once in some Champions games I was involved in).

Quote from: trechriron;1095478I should also mention Open D6 is a solid (if a little dated) option. The new Mythic D6 game is a nice polished combination of Legend D6 and Jerry Grayson's D6 Powers. It's more customizable from a powers perspective than SWADE, but plays as fast.

I haven't looked at Mythic D6. My group did not have a good experience with D6 Fantasy. The combat system just isn't geared towards toe-to-toe slugfests, and the magic system wasn't even remotely usable or suitable for D6 style play. If I recall correctly, it was taken from a completely different game system that WEG owned. (Masterbook?)

Quote from: Lurkndog;1096391I haven't looked at Mythic D6. My group did not have a good experience with D6 Fantasy. The combat system just isn't geared towards toe-to-toe slugfests, and the magic system wasn't even remotely usable or suitable for D6 style play. If I recall correctly, it was taken from a completely different game system that WEG owned. (Masterbook?)

Yes, magic is from MasterBook and yes, it is nearly incomprehensible... and incongruous with the rest of the system. The ads and disads are also from MB and they mostly suck as well.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1095810Agreed 100%

Another advantage of AGE over GURPS/Hero you have all the game in one book, you don't need to add/remove stuff to play genre X (of the ones they have published). Still the GURPS world books are such a great wealth of info, even if their take on precolombine cultures is a bit too on the noble savage for my taste. (Haven't found one that doesn't have the exact same defect)

Not exactly true anymore. You can play Hero with one book. Champions Complete or Fantasy Hero Complete. GURPS not so much since each genre requires stuff not in the main books. I still buy GURPS Settings and the like, but use them as sources for my Hero games.

Quote from: Lurkndog;1096391I haven't looked at Mythic D6. My group did not have a good experience with D6 Fantasy. The combat system just isn't geared towards toe-to-toe slugfests, and the magic system wasn't even remotely usable or suitable for D6 style play. If I recall correctly, it was taken from a completely different game system that WEG owned. (Masterbook?)

Jerry Greyson made a new Mythic D6. It is a generic "superhero" game that fits in with the MM3e, HERO crowd in approach. It's well tuned, plays fast and the book is good quality.

Quote from: shuddemell;1096436Not exactly true anymore. You can play Hero with one book. Champions Complete or Fantasy Hero Complete. GURPS not so much since each genre requires stuff not in the main books. I still buy GURPS Settings and the like, but use them as sources for my Hero games.

Not with Fourth edition. GURPS 4e has a power system that is as flexible as Hero. It downside is that it not laid out as straight forward so at first glance it appears as regular advantages.

The genre books are about implementing the core books for the genre. There are some books like Banestorm and Magic which updates and carries forward older GURPS material that are popular among the fanbase.

Then there are the lines like Dungeon Fantasy, Monster Hunters, and Action, which unlike the genre books are implementation of GURPS in the vein of a non-generic RPG.

It pretty much a wash between how HERO 5e/6e and GURPS 4e sets up their line.

Quote from: shuddemell;1096436Not exactly true anymore. You can play Hero with one book. Champions Complete or Fantasy Hero Complete. GURPS not so much since each genre requires stuff not in the main books. I still buy GURPS Settings and the like, but use them as sources for my Hero games.

I was just looking at the new (ish) Fantasy Hero Complete, and just got in the mail a nice minty copy of Fantasy Hero 5th Edition. I have to say that I like the latter much better. The former does look standalone but it seems like they are trying to repackage Hero system more like d20 type games in a D&D book size, and there were a few oddball stand out differences.

FH5 has a bunch of templates for character types based on race, profession, background, etc. Most are low point cost, so if you wanted to create a Deep Forest Elven Ranger, just buy the templates with your CPs and you have plenty left over to customize your character.

Quote from: estar;1096450Not with Fourth edition. GURPS 4e has a power system that is as flexible as Hero.

Is that in Gurps Powers? Or in Characters or Campaigns?

Quote from: theory of games;1095432which rpg system best handles any genre? Gurps and hero used to be giants but, savage worlds is getting bigger and bigger. Has the new kid taken over the block or are the giants just sleeping?

If your players convinced you to run a game about spacefaring, dimension-hopping, psychic ninja-cops, which system do you think gets it done?

Traveller.

Quote from: Chris24601;1095923
In other words, you couldn't get extra build points just by giving yourself a bunch of role-playing hooks the GM actually has to manage and remember to include lest your flaws not actually be flaws. If the current adventure really doesn't have any situation where a complication comes up, it just doesn't come up; the GM doesn't have to throw in something involving your DNPC back home (or keep track that it needs to come up ASAP when appropriate) just because the once/session 8- roll happened to pop (not to mention the occasional flaw pile-ups I saw in large groups where multiple hunted/secret identity/dnpc popped all at once in some Champions games I was involved in).

Exactly why I'm liking M&M over GURPS and HERO.

Quote from: Aglondir;1096465Is that in Gurps Powers? Or in Characters or Campaigns?

The powers system is based off of advantages, included in Characters. Guidance on how to do that is in Powers

Quote from: jeff37923;1096467Traveller.

You know, I was initially tempted to answer exactly so myself. Given that it's what I'm actually most likely to use, and have used. I think Traveller is grossly underrated as a generic toolkit.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1096495You know, I was initially tempted to answer exactly so myself. Given that it's what I'm actually most likely to use, and have used. I think Traveller is grossly underrated as a generic toolkit.

On the one hand, I meant it in a tongue-and-cheek way, but it really is a versatile system. There already are medieval and bronze age versions of the game (Mercator (https://www.freelancetraveller.com/magazine/2010-04/mercator.pdf)) and there are systems for integrating spell use into the game (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/78450/Flynns-Guide-to-Magic-in-Traveller). The key is the kind of game play that you want for characters, class and level games tend to favor the "zero to hero" type of character while Traveller types reflect a character with a detailed background and experience.

Quote from: estar;1096450Not with Fourth edition. GURPS 4e has a power system that is as flexible as Hero. It downside is that it not laid out as straight forward so at first glance it appears as regular advantages.

The genre books are about implementing the core books for the genre. There are some books like Banestorm and Magic which updates and carries forward older GURPS material that are popular among the fanbase.

Then there are the lines like Dungeon Fantasy, Monster Hunters, and Action, which unlike the genre books are implementation of GURPS in the vein of a non-generic RPG.

It pretty much a wash between how HERO 5e/6e and GURPS 4e sets up their line.

Ah, I stand corrected. In my defense, GURPS 3E was the last look I took at it. Though I did buy a copy of Dungeon Fantasy recently but haven't had a chance to go through it.

Sounds like the main issue would be scalability. GURPS always seemed a little better at gritty, and Hero a little better at Superheroic, but otherwise very similar in their universality. YMMV, but I think they are both fine systems, and prefer them both to SW or M&M.

Quote from: Lynn;1096462I was just looking at the new (ish) Fantasy Hero Complete, and just got in the mail a nice minty copy of Fantasy Hero 5th Edition. I have to say that I like the latter much better. The former does look standalone but it seems like they are trying to repackage Hero system more like d20 type games in a D&D book size, and there were a few oddball stand out differences.

FH5 has a bunch of templates for character types based on race, profession, background, etc. Most are low point cost, so if you wanted to create a Deep Forest Elven Ranger, just buy the templates with your CPs and you have plenty left over to customize your character.

Yeah, it kind of depends on your preference. I like 5E and 6E equally well as systems, there were a few differences in terms of figured characteristics, but they are very much the same system. On the issue of the Complete books, I think it was mainly a last ditch effort to shed the "too complex" moniker that is always leveled at Hero. To do this, they removed a lot of the extra things like templates, which made the 5E Fantasy book a little more useful to the gamemaster. I think ultimately, that the one "mistake" for Hero is that the support and settings bottomed out and it doesn't cater well to those GM's that don't want to put the work in for a campaign, and would rather run premade adventures, which is what the big 2 (WOTC and PAIZO) really excel at, because they have tons of ready to run modules. Hero never got that kind of support, it's more for the craftsmen gamemasters rather than the casual ones.

Quote from: shuddemell;1096436Not exactly true anymore. You can play Hero with one book. Champions Complete or Fantasy Hero Complete. GURPS not so much since each genre requires stuff not in the main books. I still buy GURPS Settings and the like, but use them as sources for my Hero games.

You were always able to play HERO with one book until 6E. 1E-3E were complete stand alone games Champions, Espionage, FH, DI, JI. Champions and FH did have some supplements, but they were not required. 4E Champions was entirely self contained, 4E HERO was the complete rules, and could be played with nothing else, although that varied by genre, FH he supplements were highly desirable,  but post apocalypse or modern action games really required nothing more (which was good, because there was little offered). 5E HERO basically the same as 4E, maybe even more so, since they moved almost all the rules into the core book, and the genre books were primarily guidelines to running a game in that genre. The setting books offered more mechanics since they were providing specific game worlds. 6E was the first and only to split the core rules into multiple required, and several recommended but not essential books that included significant mechanics in them.
 
GURPS 3E could theoretically be played with just the core, but you are missing out on a lot without some of the supplements. 4E also went the multiple required / highly recommended books route.

Quote from: Lynn;1096462I was just looking at the new (ish) Fantasy Hero Complete, and just got in the mail a nice minty copy of Fantasy Hero 5th Edition. I have to say that I like the latter much better. The former does look standalone but it seems like they are trying to repackage Hero system more like d20 type games in a D&D book size, and there were a few oddball stand out differences.

FH5 has a bunch of templates for character types based on race, profession, background, etc. Most are low point cost, so if you wanted to create a Deep Forest Elven Ranger, just buy the templates with your CPs and you have plenty left over to customize your character.

I haven't looked through the Complete series. I think it was a good idea, and long over due, but can't comment on how well it was done. Removing templates sounds like one of those stepping over a quarter to save a nickel kind of things. Removing them lowers page count, but they are a good tool to guide the new players the book was aimed at. Templates used to be Package Deals in the older editions, the idea being you got a bunch of stuff that made sense for the PC, but also were forced to spend some points on things of possibly dubious value, so you got a little bit of a discount. In 5th they decided to remove the discount and changed the name since there was no longer any "deal" to the package. It also went from a package where you bought the whole thing, to a listing of suggested skills, talents and was mostly just guidance of what a profession, culture etc would provide to a member.

Quote from: shuddemell;1096502Yeah, it kind of depends on your preference. I like 5E and 6E equally well as systems, there were a few differences in terms of figured characteristics, but they are very much the same system. On the issue of the Complete books, I think it was mainly a last ditch effort to shed the "too complex" moniker that is always leveled at Hero. To do this, they removed a lot of the extra things like templates, which made the 5E Fantasy book a little more useful to the gamemaster. I think ultimately, that the one "mistake" for Hero is that the support and settings bottomed out and it doesn't cater well to those GM's that don't want to put the work in for a campaign, and would rather run premade adventures, which is what the big 2 (WOTC and PAIZO) really excel at, because they have tons of ready to run modules. Hero never got that kind of support, it's more for the craftsmen gamemasters rather than the casual ones.

5E and 6E didn't get much of that but the earlier editions did. I don't know the depth of their research, but they claimed that the HERO pre-made adventures were not good sellers. Lacking any data I can't support or disprove their claims, although up through 4th they kept putting them out, particularly in the Champions line. It is possible that adventures just were not within their range of interest, but it doesn't seem to far fetched that a game like HERO would attract GMs that leaned heavily toward DIY. GURPS has never been particularly heavy on pre-made adventures either, so Steve Long et al may have been correct in that not being a winning strategy. HERO 5E did however provide a plethora of GM support books featuring tons of premade powers, gadgets, equipment, adversaries, allies critters and general NPCs.

The Complete line of books for Hero were a step in the right direction. Though while not too little way too late to save HG.

In any case the underlying issue of the complexity and crunchiness of the rules still remains and unfortunately still something major that will keep hurting their sales. As much as as some in the hobby don't like it the trend at least what I can see is towards rules light and less crunchy set of rules with fans. At least enough so that HG is on life support and SJGames would probably be too if they did not have other Ips such as Munchkin to fall back on.

It is like how the Dark Eye even othiugh it maybe played in North America will never really make an impact in the same market. Even before the D20 system spoiled Northern American gamers many were simply not interested in the Dark Eye rules. Many like Rifts found the background interesting like myself. Many also like myself were not interested in that core system. Gamers like non-gamers will always take the easy way out. They may say champion the Hero System to your face and sday the love it. One can bet behind close doors they will never play it and go with an easier system.

As long as an effort is made to try and fix the issues of the current edition of an rpg many will usually end up buying the rpg even if they have funky dice. Tale a loo at Star Wars from FGG. Even with the Funky dice it is a big hit for the company. While I find D6 Star Wars easier to run without requiring any proprietary dice. Their advice on handling Jedi is piss poor at best and essentially telling the GM to screw a player over if he uses the force. Instead of you know actually trying to fix the issue. From what I hear FGG actually tries to fix the issue.

In the end if a company rpg or otherwise will not give enough of the fabase what they want they will go somewhere. Brand loyalty or consumer loyalty to me is a myth. If they can get what they want elsewhere they will do so.

The Complete line of books for Hero were a step in the right direction. Though while not too little way too late to save HG.

In any case the underlying issue of the complexity and crunchiness of the rules still remains and unfortunately still something major that will keep hurting their sales. As much as as some in the hobby don't like it the trend at least what I can see is towards rules light and less crunchy set of rules with fans. At least enough so that HG is on life support and SJGames would probably be too if they did not have other Ips such as Munchkin to fall back on.

It is like how the Dark Eye even othiugh it maybe played in North America will never really make an impact in the same market. Even before the D20 system spoiled Northern American gamers many were simply not interested in the Dark Eye rules. Many like Rifts found the background interesting like myself. Many also like myself were not interested in that core system. Gamers like non-gamers will always take the easy way out. They may say champion the Hero System to your face and sday the love it. One can bet behind close doors they will never play it and go with an easier system.

As long as an effort is made to try and fix the issues of the current edition of an rpg many will usually end up buying the rpg even if they have funky dice. Tale a loo at Star Wars from FGG. Even with the Funky dice it is a big hit for the company. While I find D6 Star Wars easier to run without requiring any proprietary dice. Their advice on handling Jedi is piss poor at best and essentially telling the GM to screw a player over if he uses the force. Instead of you know actually trying to fix the issue. From what I hear FGG actually tries to fix the issue.

In the end if a company rpg or otherwise will not give enough of the fabase what they want they will go somewhere. Brand loyalty or consumer loyalty to me is a myth. If they can get what they want elsewhere they will do so.

Quote from: sureshot;1096545The Complete line of books for Hero were a step in the right direction. Though while not too little way too late to save HG.

In any case the underlying issue of the complexity and crunchiness of the rules still remains and unfortunately still something major that will keep hurting their sales. As much as as some in the hobby don't like it the trend at least what I can see is towards rules light and less crunchy set of rules with fans. At least enough so that HG is on life support and SJGames would probably be too if they did not have other Ips such as Munchkin to fall back on.

It is like how the Dark Eye even othiugh it maybe played in North America will never really make an impact in the same market. Even before the D20 system spoiled Northern American gamers many were simply not interested in the Dark Eye rules. Many like Rifts found the background interesting like myself. Many also like myself were not interested in that core system. Gamers like non-gamers will always take the easy way out. They may say champion the Hero System to your face and sday the love it. One can bet behind close doors they will never play it and go with an easier system.

As long as an effort is made to try and fix the issues of the current edition of an rpg many will usually end up buying the rpg even if they have funky dice. Tale a loo at Star Wars from FGG. Even with the Funky dice it is a big hit for the company. While I find D6 Star Wars easier to run without requiring any proprietary dice. Their advice on handling Jedi is piss poor at best and essentially telling the GM to screw a player over if he uses the force. Instead of you know actually trying to fix the issue. From what I hear FGG actually tries to fix the issue.

In the end if a company rpg or otherwise will not give enough of the fabase what they want they will go somewhere. Brand loyalty or consumer loyalty to me is a myth. If they can get what they want elsewhere they will do so.

One could say there is no reason to produce any game that is not some flavor of D&D. It is the largest seller, so clearly all the rest are failures, no?

Something went wrong with HERO, but scrapping it and coming out with a super light, vaguely resembles HERO game is not much of a solution.


I think a major problem for tool kit games like HERO and GURPS is how much do you need beyond the core books, and major supplements? They are very DIY, so once you have the major tools, you have less and less reason to buy anything. Each succeeding product after the core is a dwindling market, say 100% buy the core, but only 60% buy FH, then 50% of those buy a FH companion, 30% buy a FH setting. Repeat for each genre with some being less popular than others. Seriously how may copies of Luche Libre HERO do you think they sold?

In some ways they are sort of like the classic brick-like Volvo 240. A great, very practical car, but it barely changed over 20 years of production and the damn things are impossible to kill. Once they sold to the 2 million people that wanted one it was all downhill from there, because those who wanted one had one. There was little reason to buy another, because it would be just like the one they already had. HERO 6E is like the Volvo 850, a nice car trying to reach new markets, but the numbers of new buyers was small and the owners of 240s, not interested.  


HERO in particular also suffers from being a one game company. When that one game hits a slump for whatever reason, it is bad news because there is nothing else to fall back on. Most companies have a broader product base, with multiple RPGs and often some board and card games which can carry them over even during a larger decline in one of those markets.

Claims that complex doesn't sell has been around since the 90s when story games first raised their heads, yet we continue to see more complex games continue to be produced and have success, examples D&D 3E and PF. Still waiting to see if the allegedly more complex PF2 is a success or a bomb.

Easy is almost always the largest market. People are essentially lazy and like cheap, easy solutions. No reason games should be any different. Not that light games are bad, but they have a low entry point making them accessible to the largest number of people.

Toadmaster, you are of course correct, but I had a little bit of an ulterior motive in primarily pushing 5-6E. I am hoping that more will get involved with it. I think the BBB was the point at which (before it was touted as a universal system) it was developed enough to really see that it could be used universally.

As for the Complete series, they are a distillation of the 2 big 6E books, removing a lot of what some considered to be extraneous examples. While I love Steve Long's work, I think he is such a completist that he had to make sure that there were examples covering every question he thought might be asked. I have both, and while I think the 2 books are useful, I only need Champions Complete at the table. While it's true that the complex criticisms started far earlier than 5E, as you note, the stigma still holds. There was even someone that shot FRED with a gun to proved just how thick and weighty the edition was, and by association considered complex and not considered "complete". While I agree the character creation can be complex, at the table the system is very easy and I very rarely need to reference the rules.

Yes, I have heard that from many in the Hero community concerning modules. I have no doubt it is true, because by the point 5E came out, most people were crafting their own stuff and had what they needed in sourcebooks from 4E. Yes, and they have updated the sourcebooks for 6E as well.

Sadly, because of the necessary frontloaded effort, it is not likely it will attract casual gm's and players.

I also think that "Complete" systems have an economic disadvantage from the get go, because unless they have a widely recognized IP associated with them, they hamstring their ability to generate cash flow with supplements.

It also should be noted that a few independent creators are publishing things for the Hero Games Store at extremely reasonable prices. Including settings, sourcebooks and whole magic systems.

Quote from: Aglondir;1096465Is that in Gurps Powers? Or in Characters or Campaigns?

Characters. Powers is about how to manipulate the advantages, enhancements, and limitations, to handle different types of powers.

Quote from: shuddemell;1096589While I love Steve Long's work, I think he is such a completist that he had to make sure that there were examples covering every question he thought might be asked.


While I agree the character creation can be complex, at the table the system is very easy and I very rarely need to reference the rules.

The man certainly could have used a brutal editor who would have cut to the chase. Examples are good, but in 5E and I assume 6E they could be excessive at times.


In high school I used to build 3E HERO PCs from my head, only later using the books to double check point costs and make some fine adjustments.

Quote from: sureshot;1096545As long as an effort is made to try and fix the issues of the current edition of an rpg many will usually end up buying the rpg even if they have funky dice. Tale a loo at Star Wars from FGG. Even with the Funky dice it is a big hit for the company. While I find D6 Star Wars easier to run without requiring any proprietary dice. Their advice on handling Jedi is piss poor at best and essentially telling the GM to screw a player over if he uses the force. Instead of you know actually trying to fix the issue. From what I hear FGG actually tries to fix the issue.

In WEG's defense, D6 Star Wars was only ever based on the original trilogy, so their Force powers fall way short of what we saw in the prequels.

I do plan to pick up a copy of one of the FGG Star Wars games just to read it. Which one would you recommend?

Hero System as a tool for GM's who enjoy crafting the game is a very good description, in more ways than one.  Essentially, for good or ill, it is akin to a pre-industrial system, in that every part above the most basic has to be made by hand, every time.  It expects you to do that, and thus gives you the tools to do it.  But it also doesn't give you any serious short cuts.  This is also why the supplements don't sell as well.

As an example, let me contrast my typical D&D DiY with my typical Hero DiY work:  

D&D:  I'm only in trouble if the player really wants a character that the game just will not do.  I can get around that with an agreement about what is possible in the campaign world.  Then I go about assembling the various elements.  The equipment list is standard, except you also use X, Y, Z.  These classes are available. These races with these slight modifications.  And so on.  

Hero:  I need to do the characters myself based on what players describe, provide them components (e.g. spells, equipment, etc.) then let them build the characters, or let the players do everything.  If the latter, then I instead need to provide guidelines and maybe a few hard limits (depending on the players) to fit the campaign.  Then I need to do all the other stuff too.

There's some overlap in both that I'm glossing over for brevity, but the point I'm driving at is that with Hero someone has to take the individual pieces and make the character out of those.  Or they can use packages or templates or whatever equivalent the GM provides instead.  And I actually think if you want to introduce a bunch of new players to Hero, that's the best way to do it--make your own "templates" and only let them pick from them (or some additions that you craft for them by request, after they suggest a character concept).  It certainly worked well enough for me getting multiple Fantasy Hero groups started from nothing, with players that had mostly never played an RPG or had only brief exposure to D&D.  It works even better if you use a custom character sheet where the first page is built on the component level, with the details hidden in subsequent pages or house rule documents.  The standard Hero System sheet leaves the system guts hanging out all over the place.  (GURPS has the same problem, but it is masked by GURPS being more clever about how it names things to make it less obvious.  The guts are still hanging out, but they aren't bleeding on the player.)

Problem is, I got really tired of that work.  The supplements don't help, unless I conform to the campaign world view of the supplement.  If I'm doing that, then I lose a big chunk of what makes Hero appealing in the first place, fitting my vision of the campaign into the rules.  If I've got to rewrite the spells, powers, etc., and recalculate the costs from the raw bits, then all the supplements provide are examples.  

In 5E/6E, what Hero really needed was something highly useful to come out of whatever rule changes were necessary in order to make "templates" not only work, but be a truly integrated piece of the system.  That would have, however, required some serious changes to how effects, advantages, limitations, etc. are calculated.  I'm not sure it was even possible.  I played around with it for a couple of years in a home brew Fantasy Hero, trying to get my 200+ list of spells into a system where I could systematically change assumptions about a new campaign without using software tools to recalculate the entire book.  Someone on the 5E team took to heart the criticism that Hero needed a lot more examples.  They missed that it needed more than that.

In any case, shortly thereafter it occurred to me that universal systems, aren't.  And generic systems are, very.

It was pointed out to me some years back that you don't need to actually calculate the points. Just pick the effects, advantages, limitations you want and that the description.

For example

Ant-Lion, Giant
Insect, Wild Animal
ST: 13 HP: 13 Speed: 6.25
DX: 13 Will: 10 Move: 5
IQ: 3 Per: 10
HT: 12 FP: 12 SM: +1
3 hexes, 300 lbs.
Dodge: 9 Parry: -- DR: 1 (Flexible)
Pincers (15): 1d cut (Reach C)

Halkmenan Rebel
A lightly armed Rebel Warrior
ST: 10 HP: 10 Speed: 5.5
DX: 10 Will: 10 Move: 5
IQ: 10 Per: 10 SM: 0
HT: 12 FP: 12 DR 0
Dodge: 8 Parry: 9 Block: 9 Shield: 1
Spear (12): 1d+1 imp 2h 1d+3 imp; Reach 1/1,2
Large Knife (12): 1d cut or 1d-1 imp; Reach C,1/C
-1 parry
Punch (12): 1d-2 cr; Reach C.
Traits:
Skills:  Brawling-12; Spear-12; Shield-12; Large Knife-11, Stealth-10, Religious Ritual (Hamakhis)-10
• Spear, $500, 3 lbs.
• Large Knife, $40, 1 lb.
• Small Shield (DB 1), $40, 8 lbs.

Quote from: Lurkndog;1096659In WEG's defense, D6 Star Wars was only ever based on the original trilogy, so their Force powers fall way short of what we saw in the prequels.

I do plan to pick up a copy of one of the FGG Star Wars games just to read it. Which one would you recommend?

I am probanly not the best person to ask. The dice at first really turned me away from really giving the games a chance. From what I have been told Age of Rebellion is the best of the three.

Tenbones is the best to ask.

Agreed, an editor with an eye to conciseness and brevity would have been extremely helpful. And yes, he made examples for even corner cases. So while the 6E tomes are very useful for the GM, they are daunting and largely unnecessary for the player.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1096683Hero System as a tool for GM's who enjoy crafting the game is a very good description, in more ways than one.  Essentially, for good or ill, it is akin to a pre-industrial system, in that every part above the most basic has to be made by hand, every time.  It expects you to do that, and thus gives you the tools to do it.  But it also doesn't give you any serious short cuts.  This is also why the supplements don't sell as well....

While this is largely true, there are some systems built with Hero that actually are cohesive games in and of themselves and don't require you to build everything from scratch. Kamarathin, Narosia, Monster Hunters Inc., and Johlros are all examples of games built with the Hero Toolbox that avoid the trouble of building everything, and also put the guts back in the torso, so to speak. Problem is, that they still carry the stigma of the toolbox, rather than being used on their own merit. If they appeal to you... they are a way to avoid the issues you bring up. I particularly like a lot the material for Johlros. Though, largely the impression you convey here is the median opinion of Hero in the gaming community.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1096619The man certainly could have used a brutal editor who would have cut to the chase. Examples are good, but in 5E and I assume 6E they could be excessive at times.


In high school I used to build 3E HERO PCs from my head, only later using the books to double check point costs and make some fine adjustments.

Agreed, an editor with an eye to conciseness and brevity would have been extremely helpful. And yes, he made examples for even corner cases. So while the 6E tomes are very useful for the GM, they are daunting and largely unnecessary for the player.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1096683In 5E/6E, what Hero really needed was something highly useful to come out of whatever rule changes were necessary in order to make "templates" not only work, but be a truly integrated piece of the system.  That would have, however, required some serious changes to how effects, advantages, limitations, etc. are calculated.  I'm not sure it was even possible.  I played around with it for a couple of years in a home brew Fantasy Hero, trying to get my 200+ list of spells into a system where I could systematically change assumptions about a new campaign without using software tools to recalculate the entire book.  Someone on the 5E team took to heart the criticism that Hero needed a lot more examples.  They missed that it needed more than that.

In any case, shortly thereafter it occurred to me that universal systems, aren't.  And generic systems are, very.

This is something that I think many agreed with, but seemed to get no traction. There isn't a need to scrap and rebuild the system, it is a case of providing a stand alone game built on HERO, but not sold as a tool kit. Here is a list of spells, here is a list of equipment, here is a list of monsters. No need for detailed lists of how they were built, just how they work. That goes back to 2E Espionage, 3E with FH, JI and DI. These were only tool kits in that they were compatible with the tool box (Champions) so a GM could build additional stuff, but most of the inner workings were concealed so the players GM didn't have to think about it.

In play HERO is not actually that hard, I think simpler than GURPS and not a great deal more difficult than D&D. It is the building that can be overwhelming.


Again, I haven't actually read the Complete books, but it is my impression that they kind of missed the boat on making the game more approachable. Yes, they reduced the content from 6E, but it doesn't sound like they actually reduced the complexity a great deal.


To your last point, I agree. I think you can cover a lot of ground with a set of rules, but at some point you either make it kind of vanilla, or tend to get complicated (optional rules to cover every possible option).

From what I've seen Savage Worlds sort of takes the approach of 3E HERO where a particular setting adopts certain standards, and leaves it there. You might find a few inconsistencies between SW sci-fi setting and SW fantasy setting because they chose different options to fit the setting / genre. The players don't have to get all wrapped around the axle checking every possible combination of the core rules options. A GM can go back to the core rules and edit those choices, but that is a choice the are making to add more work for themselves.

Quote from: shuddemell;1096718While this is largely true, there are some systems built with Hero that actually are cohesive games in and of themselves and don't require you to build everything from scratch. Kamarathin, Narosia, Monster Hunters Inc., and Johlros are all examples of games built with the Hero Toolbox that avoid the trouble of building everything, and also put the guts back in the torso, so to speak. Problem is, that they still carry the stigma of the toolbox, rather than being used on their own merit. If they appeal to you... they are a way to avoid the issues you bring up. I particularly like a lot the material for Johlros. Though, largely the impression you convey here is the median opinion of Hero in the gaming community.

Exactly, and this was also the case during the 3E era. FH, DI and JI were much easier to get into than Champions, because you were just building your character, perhaps using some of the pre-made minor powers / talents and that was it. Not building your super suit, no EC or MP to worry about, no trying to figure out the most cost effective way to build a simple flashlight.


I've seen some who claim that HERO without the extensive powers section isn't HERO, but I don't agree with that having lived through a period where many HERO games didn't include a powers section.

Although I disagree that the whole focus needs to change, Sureshot has a point. There is a need to offer a variant of HERO that is significantly easier if they ever want to grow the player base significantly. That doesn't mean gut the core of the rules, but make a serious effort to rein in all the options so people can take things one bite at a time.

Having started with 1E Champions, it can be easy to gloss over how overwhelming the game has become. I don't know if I just picked up 5E today if I would have the patience to learn it.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1096724Having started with 1E Champions, it can be easy to gloss over how overwhelming the game has become. I don't know if I just picked up 5E today if I would have the patience to learn it.

You may have a point there, I started with Champions in 1982 and have been playing on and off ever since. So the transitions may be more painful for the neophyte... then again I still prefer AD&D to the newer incarnations, so hard to say. On the other hand, I have always been on the detail side, I am the only person I know who ever ran Aftermath, so it's probably just my preference.

The problem with the complete book and simplifying it for the players and GM is that unless the explicit and implicit setting of the powers chosen really appeals, it isn't going to sell, either.  And I don't think most of the people involved are very good at making something that appeals to a wide swath of people--probably because they are so geared into the DiY mindset themselves.  

You can't have "DiY to the wall" and "Simple as all get out" in the same game, unless someone has a great vision of how to turn a flavor of the former into the latter.  That takes a rare mind that can both produce a setting that is compelling in its own right, but without the ego involved of walling off customization options for the DiY buyers.

I struggled with HERO, starting with the 6E core books. I picked up the HERO Basic book and that helped, so I picked up 6E Fantasy HERO. That helped and hurt at the same time. 6E Fantasy HERO's concrete examples made some things click but it piled on the idea that I still had a lot of work to do before getting to the simple part - actually running the game.

It didn't help at all that the system relies on heavily coupled three letter acronyms, where you have to work your way back through the TLA chain so that you can figure out the original one that you were looking at. That said, I picked up Fantasy HERO Complete and it did help, but it didn't exactly get me over the top.

Two fan-made documents did:

The Fantasy HERO Primer:
https://www.herogames.com/files/file/367-fantasy-hero-primer/

How to Play HERO System:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ENrHV_IwGainzAofa1TuGuEUpGR5AbSZ4DBIi1YSuqU

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1096737The problem with the complete book and simplifying it for the players and GM is that unless the explicit and implicit setting of the powers chosen really appeals, it isn't going to sell, either.  And I don't think most of the people involved are very good at making something that appeals to a wide swath of people--probably because they are so geared into the DiY mindset themselves.  

You can't have "DiY to the wall" and "Simple as all get out" in the same game, unless someone has a great vision of how to turn a flavor of the former into the latter.  That takes a rare mind that can both produce a setting that is compelling in its own right, but without the ego involved of walling off customization options for the DiY buyers.

Well you aren't going to get to simple as all get out regardless of what you do. At best you will get something between AD&D and D&D 3E. I think the super broad DIY aspect is what causes many of the issues and the reputation.

Not suggesting HERO as a DIY system be replaced, simply that an additional stand alone "powered by HERO" game would be much easier for people to learn. Retro dungeon crawling games seem to be all the rage these days, so why not get on the wagon with a D&D flavored Dungeon HERO. It seems to have been successful for GURPS which suffers from many of the same complaints.    

Quote from: Eisenmann;1096748I struggled with HERO, starting with the 6E core books. I picked up the HERO Basic book and that helped, so I picked up 6E Fantasy HERO. That helped and hurt at the same time. 6E Fantasy HERO's concrete examples made some things click but it piled on the idea that I still had a lot of work to do before getting to the simple part - actually running the game.

It didn't help at all that the system relies on heavily coupled three letter acronyms, where you have to work your way back through the TLA chain so that you can figure out the original one that you were looking at. That said, I picked up Fantasy HERO Complete and it did help, but it didn't exactly get me over the top.

Two fan-made documents did:

The Fantasy HERO Primer:
https://www.herogames.com/files/file/367-fantasy-hero-primer/

How to Play HERO System:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ENrHV_IwGainzAofa1TuGuEUpGR5AbSZ4DBIi1YSuqU

You really might want to consider getting a copy of HERO 4E, although the rules are similar I think it was easier to grasp. Where 6E was supposed to be simplifying things, the additional 500 pages (yes 6E has more than 3x the page count of 4E) makes me think that was not the case. My personal opinion is 6E utterly failed at making the game easier, and in fact made it even more complicated and unapproachable.


At DTRPG for $10

HERO 4E  (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/207333/Hero-System-Rulesbook-4th-edition?filters=0_2140_0_0_0)


Or perhaps the original 3E era Fantasy HERO, which is a complete game in 2/3 the pages of 6E's Fantasy HERO Complete, and only $7.50 at DTRPG

Fantasy HERO 3E (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/257022/Fantasy-Hero-3rd-Edition)


Note 3E has some substantial mechanical differences, but the core concepts are the same. If you end up getting FH 3E and like it, there were books with pre-made spells, magic items and a bestiary (appropriately named, The Spell Book, Magic Items and The FH Bestiary). Iron Crown's (the Role master people) included HERO 3E stats in their Shadow World fantasy setting.

One significant drawback to HERO is that the modifiers for powers are somewhat awkward to do on a spreadsheet.

M&M on the other hand was very easy to make a spreadsheet for.

Quote from: Lurkndog;1097566One significant drawback to HERO is that the modifiers for powers are somewhat awkward to do on a spreadsheet.

M&M on the other hand was very easy to make a spreadsheet for.

Or spend the $30 for Hero Designer. Easy peasy.

Quote from: shuddemell;1097600Or spend the $30 for Hero Designer. Easy peasy.

I just can't bring myself to install any flavor of Java on my computers.

Quote from: Lynn;1097664I just can't bring myself to install any flavor of Java on my computers.

From this you use either linux or bsd, so, what about a virtual machine?

Quote from: Lynn;1097664I just can't bring myself to install any flavor of Java on my computers.

Your prerogative, but it does solve the issue of working powers in an app. It can also be done in a spreadsheet, but it's a lot more work. I also don't get the impression (correct me if I am wrong) that you are predisposed to use Hero anyway, so it may be a moot point.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1097683From this you use either linux or bsd, so, what about a virtual machine?

I might consider doing this on Raspbian (I've been wringing my hands over getting the Pi4 since my biz also makes something that runs on it), but not on one of my other computers (I have no issue with server-side Java). Bad releases 100% cured me on trusting Java or Flash on any computer I use.

Quote from: shuddemell;1097730Your prerogative, but it does solve the issue of working powers in an app. It can also be done in a spreadsheet, but it's a lot more work. I also don't get the impression (correct me if I am wrong) that you are predisposed to use Hero anyway, so it may be a moot point.

I use a spreadsheet now that a friend gave me and I've modified it a bit. For the last year, I have been playing in a 5th Edition / Fantasy Hero campaign and really enjoying it. I can't say I have played all versions of Hero extensively - mostly 1st edition Champions back when it came out in the 80s. But this is really the first time I have played Hero without it being a Champions game.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1096724...
Having started with 1E Champions, it can be easy to gloss over how overwhelming the game has become...

Quote from: shuddemell;1097600Or spend the $30 for Hero Designer. Easy peasy.

For me, this is my breaking point with games like the HERO system.

When an app/spreadsheet is helpful / quasi-required to create a character because of the math involved, I'm out!

Its like a player in my group who is also in a Pathfinder game. He says he would never run PF - And he would not even play it if he could not use the character app to help him track everything his PC has for the game.
And after seeing the character sheet for PF2e... Fuck that.

And I don't think I'm the only one who feels that way.

No one ever said that it would be really helpful if Savage Worlds had a spreadsheet or app for character creation. Ever.

Obviously HERO and GURPS have their adherents, but unless they are happy catering to their existing base (which they may very well be.)  IMHO they need a big re-think on how to present a new take on their system with an all in one system/setting RPG, if they are to recover any lost ground.

Quote from: Jaeger;1097799Obviously HERO and GURPS have their adherents, but unless they are happy catering to their existing base (which they may very well be.)  IMHO they need a big re-think on how to present a new take on their system with an all in one system/setting RPG, if they are to recover any lost ground.

SJG are trying to bring in new blood. They had the new Discworld RPG which is complete in one book, and the Dungeon Fantasy RPG box set that is also completely stand-alone.

Quote from: Jaeger;1097799For me, this is my breaking point with games like the HERO system.

When an app/spreadsheet is helpful / quasi-required to create a character because of the math involved, I'm out!

Its like a player in my group who is also in a Pathfinder game. He says he would never run PF - And he would not even play it if he could not use the character app to help him track everything his PC has for the game.
And after seeing the character sheet for PF2e... Fuck that.

And I don't think I'm the only one who feels that way.

No one ever said that it would be really helpful if Savage Worlds had a spreadsheet or app for character creation. Ever.

Obviously HERO and GURPS have their adherents, but unless they are happy catering to their existing base (which they may very well be.)  IMHO they need a big re-think on how to present a new take on their system with an all in one system/setting RPG, if they are to recover any lost ground.

The app is not necessary, it just makes things easier. I use an app for D&D5E character creation. I need it more than the hero app because it covers stuff in many books, etc.

Maybe not about Savage Worlds, but then again I dislike the mechanics of SW....

Quote from: dbm;1097812SJG are trying to bring in new blood. They had the new Discworld RPG

The Discworld RPG gets more of a "WTF did they license that IP for?" reaction; rather than: " Ohhh... people will be all over this!"

At this point if anyone mentions the Discworld RPG as an attempt to draw in new blood to GURPs, my default position is that they  are typing with their tongues firmly in cheek.

Quote from: dbm;1097812which is complete in one book, and the Dungeon Fantasy RPG box set that is also completely stand-alone.

With combat that is still more complex than GURPS lite? And still very much a toolkit game with no setting?

So not gonna get new players...

Not that Gurps lite is any great shakes either. Still lots of legacy-bits that just need to go, that add fiddly complication with no return during actual play at the table.

Attributes and skill that have different costs to buy and improve, because reasons? Check.  Shit like this to figure derived values: (STxST)/5. Check. And then taking that formula and multiplying by single digits and decimal places to find other derived values? On the character sheet? For a fun Fantasy game that is supposed to attract new players? LOLZ. Fuck. That. Shit.

Because if I need to break out a bloody calculator for anything on the character sheet during PC creation: You are Doing. It. Wrong.

Come on; I can create a D&D5e PC inside 15 minutes just rolling dice, filling out the Character sheet, with not a calculator to be seen... Same with a lot of Savage Worlds games.

It's not even a contest really, like taking candy from a baby.

Until the Gurps and Hero people are willing to take a real top down look at their system like D&D has done over several editions, their influence in the hobby will continue to dwindle.

Quote from: Jaeger;1097844The Discworld RPG gets more of a "WTF did they license that IP for?" reaction; rather than: " Ohhh... people will be all over this!"

Pratchett is pretty popular as an author, and has moved well past simple fantasy pastiche. If you want to bring genuinely new people into the hobby, something like this sounds like a good option...

QuoteAt this point if anyone mentions the Discworld RPG as an attempt to draw in new blood to GURPs, my default position is that they  are typing with their tongues firmly in cheek.

I didn't claim they did it well... Their own analysis seems to show otherwise!

QuoteWith combat that is still more complex than GURPS lite? And still very much a toolkit game with no setting?

So not gonna get new players...

Well, D&D has spent most of it's history coming without a setting. Fate Core comes without one, so does Savage Worlds. With an RPG intended to cover a lot of game space having a campaign world built in is far from essential. Last time I looked at Mythras it also lacked a game world beyond an 'implied setting', which GURPS Dungeon Fantasy also has.

QuoteAttributes and skill that have different costs to buy and improve, because reasons? Check.  Shit like this to figure derived values: (STxST)/5. Check. And then taking that formula and multiplying by single digits and decimal places to find other derived values? On the character sheet? For a fun Fantasy game that is supposed to attract new players? LOLZ. Fuck. That. Shit.

That's cool, GURPS clearly isn't for you. It doesn't need to be for everyone.

QuoteCome on; I can create a D&D5e PC inside 15 minutes just rolling dice, filling out the Character sheet, with not a calculator to be seen... Same with a lot of Savage Worlds games.

So can I, but I can't get an enjoyable long term game out of either system, personally, so being able to quickly create a character isn't really a plus. For me, that is getting to the not-fun quicker...

QuoteUntil the Gurps and Hero people are willing to take a real top down look at their system like D&D has done over several editions, their influence in the hobby will continue to dwindle.

The system is far from perfect, I quite agree. But no game should sacrifice it's strengths for a 'me too' attempt at sales. Might as well play one of the d20 generic games at that point (I don't like them, either, and I've read many of them).

GURPS is clearly a game that follows a different furrow than the majority of 'new' games, but that doesn't make it inherently 'bad'. In my opinion the biggest challenge GURPS faces is a paucity of GM tools to make running the game easier. They are working on that strongly at the moment, with a third Dungeon Fantasy Kickstarter about to come and the start of 3rd party licensing bringing some new modules and campaign guides.

If one goes by what one sees with SJGames says in their report to shareholders both Discworld and Mars Attacks for Gurps 4E sold yet very poorly. Certainly not enough to have justified releasing them in 4E. Out of the two the only one that seems worth the effort was Discworld. Even then it was somewhat of a risk as while Pratchett is well known and the series somewhat popular. The books are not popular enough for SJGames to have wasted the time and effort. When I worked at the bookstore many customers unless they were fans of fantasy did not know who or what Discworld was. I introduced and tried to introduce many to his works with mixed results.

The cover art of his books turned many off the series. His style which while enjoyable does not lend to reading many of his books in one sitting. Read 3-5 take a break. Many were not interested in reading comedic fantasy or that many books. My point being he is popular though not as much as one would think or want. Another issue is that the 3E of the book was pretty good. Many even fans of 4E simply used that and converted over. Don't even get me started on Mars Attacks now that imo was  waste of time and effort. Especially when many were and are asking for Gurps vehicles for 4E. Yes I know it is being worked on for at least a decade or more. If it is not is not in stores at this point I am close to considering the rpg equivalent of vaporware.

Dungeon Fantasy was a very good step in the right direction unfortunately like the Hero System fanbase not enough fans want that level of complexity and crucnhiness and voted with their wallets and at this point perhaps too little too late. I see some here say that D&D does not come with a setting and that is true yet unlike Gurps many are willing to overlook that flaw as imo the system is still easier to teach to newcomers to the hobby. The fans are also the problem as they refuse to want any changes to the either Gurps or Hero in their current form. Yet expect a miraculous Renaissance for both which will never come back. As once again the gamers voted with their wallets. Which is towards rules light less crunchy rpgs like Fate and Savage Worlds. Which fans of both refuse and pretend to accept. As Hero Games is on life support and Gurps is seeing less and less support from sJGames with the company focusing on more profitable IPs in their company. Again they flat out stat that in their report to shareholders which I notice the fans ignore.

Quote from: Jaeger;1097844Until the Gurps and Hero people are willing to take a real top down look at their system like D&D has done over several editions, their influence in the hobby will continue to dwindle.

Influence? Dwindle?? The dwindling occurred long ago my friend and the influence is pretty much zero.

Quote from: sureshot;1097851If one goes by what one sees with SJGames says in their report to shareholders both Discworld and Mars Attacks for Gurps 4E sold yet very poorly.

For sure, I said the same above :)

QuoteEspecially when many were and are asking for Gurps vehicles for 4E. Yes I know it is being worked on for at least a decade or more. If it is not is not in stores at this point I am close to considering the rpg equivalent of vaporware.

It is a bit of a curate's egg, in my opinion. It is, at the same time, the product that is both highly requested and (at least in 3e guise) the poster-child for 'GURPS is too complex' as a meme.

QuoteDungeon Fantasy was a very good step in the right direction unfortunately like the Hero System fanbase not enough fans want that level of complexity and crucnhiness and voted with their wallets and at this point perhaps too little too late.

The problem with many of these initiatives is that the current fan base have largely already got this stuff, certainly they don't need the box set. Though, I have personally found it extremely useful in arranging an intro game for players used to RPGs but not GURPS specifically. I think SJG's marketing is poor and they fail to put across well the strong points of GURPS in a way to attract new gamers into the system.

QuoteI see some here say that D&D does not come with a setting and that is true yet unlike Gurps many are willing to overlook that flaw as imo the system is still easier to teach to newcomers to the hobby.

I disagree that D&D is easier to teach new players. It may be easier for new players to learn 'all of it' versus all of GURPS (even the bits just focussed on Dungeon Fantasy) but GURPS is more reality based and so players can try anything they would try in the real world. D&D is more stylised in how it plays (at least for 3rd edition onwards). I think the big difference between D&D and GURPS is that there has been a dearth of GM-assets in the form of monsters, adventures and so on. To SJG credit they are working hard on that and making real progress. There is a significant body of work available for GURPS Dungeon Fantasy in particular and the are slowly opening up to 3rd party publishing which will allow this to accelerate.

QuoteThe fans are also the problem as they refuse to want any changes to the either Gurps or Hero in their current form.

There are True Believers for most systems, and I agree that GURPS can attract a certain kind of detail-obsessed players. But there are also people like myself for whom GURPS is just 'good enough' whilst without being perfect. I've yet to find that perfect game...

QuoteYet expect a miraculous Renaissance for both which will never come back. As once again the gamers voted with their wallets. Which is towards rules light less crunchy rpgs like Fate and Savage Worlds. Which fans of both refuse and pretend to accept.

GURPS isn't going to be for everyone, for sure. And that is cool. In this inter-connected world the trick is finding the audience who want what you are offering and that (again) is where I think SJG are failing. The fans need to spread the word more, too. So I am trying to do my bit without shilling ;)

QuoteAs Hero Games is on life support and Gurps is seeing less and less support from sJGames with the company focusing on more profitable IPs in their company. Again they flat out stat that in their report to shareholders which I notice the fans ignore.

Here's a link (http://www.sjgames.com/general/stakeholders/) to the latest one. It paints a fairly brutal picture. The only GURPS product in the top-40 by sales value is Characters. If SJG was publicly traded then GURPS would have been put to pasture long ago. It is only SJ's personal patronage that keeps it running. These things get regularly and hotly discussed on the SJG forums, too, btw.

I don't think SJG are pulling back from supporting GURPS at the moment. They are in a transitional period away from the regular publishing of Pyramid into a model where you get more 'proper' supplements throughout the year. That just hasn't started to pay out yet, however if you look at the GURPS News (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/#news) you'll see that they have eight new releases in production. Also, GURPS has only ever had two full-time resources on it in recent years (Kromm and P. Kitty) and they are still there, even if P. Kitty is rarely heard from as he is head-down in a big project that hasn't yet been announced.

There was also an interesting hint (https://twitter.com/CheyenneWright/status/1155981224856260614) that GURPS Girl Genius is still a live project, too.

So, GURPS isn't dead yet...

GURPS can't take the Savage Worlds approach of having a bunch of setting unique books. It's too hard to make shit for.

Specific builds (Dungeon Fantasy), Bestiaries, and modules is a route they could go aside from fleshing out their core (vehicles?).

GURPS also suffers from being "done". A veteran Savage Worlds GM is splicing in new book combos with each campaign while a veteran GURPS GM doesn't need developers anymore.

The biggest problem with GURPS and Hero System are not players but GMs.  Anyone that really wants to run a game of GURPS or Hero can package it in a way that it is accessible to new players.  As I said above, I did it for multiple groups for a decade.  

The systems are a drain on many GMs.  You can talk about ways around the various problems all you want, but eventually many GMs will say, "Well then, if it requires all that, then I'll do something else, thanks."  Nor can you simply compare something like amount of prep time.  Not all prep time is created equal.  I spend about the same amount of time on D&D 5E that I did on D&D 3E that I did on Hero.  (It's slightly less on 5E, but not significant given that the difference could be explained by being more experienced.)  The big difference for me is that almost all the prep time on 5E is fun, whereas almost all the prep time for 3E and Hero is work.  That part is somewhat subjective, at least the characterization of it is.  When I was first doing Hero, I liked fiddling with the numbers and seeing what I could make.  Gradually, I liked it less and less, until finally I didn't like it at all--thus "work".

Obviously, the exact reason is going to vary from GM to GM--but the fact remains that the pool of possible GMs who will enjoy running a system similar to Hero is much smaller than it is for D&D or other simpler games.  Fewer GMs--fewer games.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1097866GURPS can't take the Savage Worlds approach of having a bunch of setting unique books. It's too hard to make shit for.

I disagree from dealing with the system for 20+ years. It not trival but it no harder or easier than any other system being marketed.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1097866GURPS also suffers from being "done". A veteran Savage Worlds GM is splicing in new book combos with each campaign while a veteran GURPS GM doesn't need developers anymore.

There are very few product that implement GURPS for something specific. So I disagree that GURPS is done.

Yeah, I wouldn't say GURPS is "hard to make shit for".

GMs I've known and seen on GURPS forums who get into GURPS tend to enjoy making stuff for it. A GM can also go to those forums (or GURPS Discord) and just ask and get answers (e.g. "Hey how would you model a psycho killer using a pitchfork, shovel, and chainsaw as weapons?" and you'll very quickly get answers both telling you which books and articles already stat those out, and probably other people offering their own opinions and optional ways to do it).

And GURPS could have all sorts of material made for it, especially detailed ready-to-use stuff for an infinite possible range of campaigns and settings. I think the reason they don't do that is that the people at SJG don't tend to see the potential, and/or most of their trusted writers don't tend to do that sort of style. There are some, though, such as the few ready-to-play GURPS adventures that have been released, and what Douglas at Gaming Ballistic has done for Dungeon Fantasy (and is now producing for TFT).

Quote from: The_Shadow;1097854Influence? Dwindle?? The dwindling occurred long ago my friend and the influence is pretty much zero.

I was trying to be nice... I have a big heart.

Quote from: dbm;1097846Pratchett is pretty popular as an author, and has moved well past simple fantasy pastiche. If you want to bring genuinely new people into the hobby, something like this sounds like a good option....

Maybe it looked good on paper, but...

Quote from: sureshot;1097851If one goes by what one sees with SJGames says in their report to shareholders both Discworld and Mars Attacks for Gurps 4E sold very poorly... Certainly not enough to have justified releasing them in 4E....

It's not even about bringing new people into the hobby at this point for SJG. It's about getting people already in the hobby to give SJG/Gurps a chance.

As to settings:

Quote from: dbm;1097846Well, D&D has spent most of it's history coming without a setting. Fate Core comes without one, so does Savage Worlds. With an RPG intended to cover a lot of game space having a campaign world built in is far from essential. Last time I looked at Mythras it also lacked a game world beyond an 'implied setting', which GURPS Dungeon Fantasy also has. ...

D&D was trying to figure itself out at first – but since 1977 there has always been a setting available for D&D: Blackmoor, greyhawk, Mystara, forgotten realms, etc.  Savages worlds landed with 2 settings from the get go: evernight and 50 fathoms. And has more SW based stand-alone games on offer since. Mythras got good will due to RQ6 success, and took a built in player base with them. Yet the Mythras publishers saw fit to offer multiple campaign settings post release. Fate core did come without a setting, yet Evil hat saw fit to publish Spirit of the century, Dresden files, atomic robo; all complete stand-alone fate games, with more coming.

Quote from: dbm;1097846But no game should sacrifice it's strengths for a 'me too' attempt at sales...

Fate and Savage worlds are doing what SJG/Gurps are not. And they are growing, and coming out with new complete games every year or so. That people buy.  Meanwhile, Gurps...

Quote from: dbm;1097846That's cool, GURPS clearly isn't for you. It doesn't need to be for everyone....

True. But if they want to increase their player base the Gurps needs to make itself amenable to more people.

But it is a perfectly valid choice for them to just keep doing what they are doing.

Quote from: dbm;1097846...being able to quickly create a character isn't really a plus. ...

That's just crazy talk! Quick PC creation is always a plus.

Quote from: dbm;1097846GURPS is clearly a game that follows a different furrow than the majority of 'new' games, but that doesn't make it inherently 'bad'. ....

Not inherently bad, no. But in its current form it is bad for getting new people to take a real look at the system.

Quote from: sureshot;1097851Dungeon Fantasy was a very good step in the right direction unfortunately like the Hero System fanbase not enough fans want that level of complexity and crucnhiness and voted with their wallets and at this point perhaps too little too late. ... The fans are also the problem as they refuse to want any changes to the either Gurps or Hero in their current form. ... ...

Truth.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1097866GURPS can't take the Savage Worlds approach of having a bunch of setting unique books. It's too hard to make shit for..

If it is too hard than that should be seen as a sign that SJG needs to take a similar approach with Gurps what Pinnacle did with their original deadlands rules – which were distilled down and became Savage worlds.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1097866GURPS also suffers from being "done". A veteran Savage Worlds GM is splicing in new book combos with each campaign while a veteran GURPS GM doesn't need developers anymore.

But a default mode of GM's doing all the work, all the time, does not attract new GM's. Gurps needs better 'gateway drug' games to get the non-veteran GM's to actually give the system a look.

This line is totally out of touch:

Quote from: dbm;1097846... In my opinion the biggest challenge GURPS faces is a paucity of GM tools to make running the game easier. ....

The biggest tool SJG can give GM's to make running the game easier? Easy: A less complex game.

And they could start with releasing an actual Lite version of Gurps. Not a 32 page Gurps rules summary, with the other 300 pages available when you buy the big book.

Quote from: Jaeger;1097913D&D was trying to figure itself out at first – but since 1977 there has always been a setting available for D&D: Blackmoor, greyhawk, Mystara, forgotten realms, etc.  Savages worlds landed with 2 settings from the get go: evernight and 50 fathoms. And has more SW based stand-alone games on offer since. Mythras got good will due to RQ6 success, and took a built in player base with them. Yet the Mythras publishers saw fit to offer multiple campaign settings post release. Fate core did come without a setting, yet Evil hat saw fit to publish Spirit of the century, Dresden files, atomic robo; all complete stand-alone fate games, with more coming.

There is, actually a campaign in the Campaigns book, and all the example PCs come from it (Infinite Worlds), it just isn't very popular. There has also been Banestorm for most of 4e, which is a fantasy campaign world. But, to be fair writing engaging campaigns is clearly not SJG strong point. That is why the new openness to third party publishers is so important.

QuoteThat's just crazy talk! Quick PC creation is always a plus.

You carefully cropped the end of my statement, that the ability to create a character quickly for a game you don't want to play is worthless.

QuoteBut a default mode of GM's doing all the work, all the time, does not attract new GM's. Gurps needs better 'gateway drug' games to get the non-veteran GM's to actually give the system a look.

Sounds like you agree with me that making the GM's task easier is key to success, so I don't see why you think I am out of touch?

QuoteThe biggest tool SJG can give GM's to make running the game easier? Easy: A less complex game.

I refer you back to Discworld, which is complete in one book, and Dungeon Fantasy RPG which is complete in four thin pamphlets.

Honestly their core rule books read like stereo instructions (GURPS and HERO 5th at least), their art  sucks and their iconic chars are the least inspiring bunch I have ever seen.  Those things are all the "hooks" to bring people in, and they are all terribad.  I love gurps. I think at this point I have nearly every printed 4th edition book they have (discworld and the vorksogian whatever was not my taste, and I missed the hardback Thaumatology...might get the soft cover, but enough of that, I see 18 hardbacks at least as I type this, so I am in) Saying it is no harder than any other system on the market is being out of touch.  Big time.  My group I started with Gurps.  I still get to explain things from time to time.  They caught on to Savage Worlds MUCH faster.  They caught on to DCC even faster.   Savage Worlds has done several things that are very, very good ideas.  A corebook that they shrank down to a perfect paperback version and sold for 10 bucks was really smart IMO.  It gets players to buy books as well.  IME GMs are the guys with lots and lots of books.  Players get by with the minimum.

   I think Dungeon Fantasy was a HUGE step in the right direction.  I think they need a setting for that, and even better, do a goodman games like riff and start kicking out adventures for that.    I think SJG is not new to the game though, and doesnt do that because he doesnt think the numbers are going to work.  We can all hope all the newer generation of role players D&D seems to be producing or bringing older folks back to RPGs ends up with Gurps.  I wont hold my breath.

Quote from: dbm;1097915There is, actually a campaign in the Campaigns book, and all the example PCs come from it (Infinite Worlds), it just isn't very popular. There has also been Banestorm for most of 4e, which is a fantasy campaign world. But, to be fair writing engaging campaigns is clearly not SJG strong point. That is why the new openness to third party publishers is so important.

100% agreement.

Quote from: dbm;1097915I refer you back to Discworld, which is complete in one book, and Dungeon Fantasy RPG which is complete in four thin pamphlets.

And I refer you back to my previous posts where the issues with each were addressed.  

Quote from: dbm;1097915Sounds like you agree with me that making the GM's task easier is key to success, so I don't see why you think I am out of touch?

Because you appear to not see any value in going through Gurps from the top down and actually making it less complex! I already highlighted a few issues just with the chargen in so-called "Gurps Lite" that could easily be streamlined.

And your response was: "That's cool, GURPS clearly isn't for you. It doesn't need to be for everyone..."

Just look at this mess:

Wounding Modifiers and Injury
Any damage left over after subtracting
DR from basic damage is "penetrating damage."
If there is any penetrating damage,
multiply it by the attack's "wounding modifier."
This is a multiplier that depends on
damage type:
• Small piercing (pi-): x0.5.
• Cutting (cut) and large piercing (pi+):
x1.5.
• Impaling (imp): x2.

What!? You though you could put that calculator away after figuring encumbrance? BWAHAHAHAHAHAH! Fuck you!

LOLZ! Every time you do enough damage to get past someones armor you get to calculate again! This is RPG like a man!

Fuck no.

How about in an actual "GURPS LITE" we do this instead:

Wounding Modifiers and Injury:
Any damage left over after subtracting
DR from basic damage, is Subtracted from the opponents HP.

Don't you think a full rules overhaul like that for a new system/setting Gurps Lite RPG, would make the game more palatable to new players?

Quote from: Jaeger;1097944Don't you think a full rules overhaul like that for a new system/setting Gurps Lite RPG, would make the game more palatable to new players?

Yes.

Quote from: oggsmash;1097938Honestly their core rule books read like stereo instructions (GURPS and HERO 5th at least), their art sucks and their iconic chars are the least inspiring bunch I have ever seen.

The Gurps iconics are dull, but I love the classic Champions villains and heroes, even better than some Marvel and DC offerings.

Quote from: Jaeger;1097944Don't you think a full rules overhaul like that for a new system/setting Gurps Lite RPG, would make the game more palatable to new players?

Two thoughts on this: first, I don't want GURPS to become Savage Worlds or Fate, those niches are already covered. So a complete re-engineering of the system would just serve to alienate the existing player base in a D&D 4e style.

Second, they do take steps to help manage the on-ramp through their 'worked example' series like Action, and Dungeon Fantasy. I'm about 30 hours into a DF campaign with my group who are RPG experts (pretty much all of us have been playing over 30 years) but half of them didn't have a previous positive experience of GURPS from the couple of times they had tried it, and the other half were ambivalent but not keen to run it.

As a person who is not a fan of D&D (our go-to game) I want help the group get familiar with GURPS and start to enjoy it's strengths and options versus other games we play. This is happening - they are starting to really enjoy the tactical depth in the combat system and the ability to really fine-tune their characters outside of combat, too. We have tried both Savage Worlds and Fate and neither was enjoyable for the group. The thing that spurred me on to run this game was the Dungeon Fantasy box set and follow-on products they have created.

This is why I say what GURPS really needs is more people talking about the good games they run with it, then people who want GURPS offers will find it.

GURPS problem isn't the rule system, it is the presentation. Until recent years, GURPS 4th edition doubled down on presenting the GURPS in a series of toolkit written as reference books with little if any support material. While this has changed along with the release of the Dungeon Fantasy RPG, GURPS still lags in this.

And GURPS needs list of stuff that are presented well like Monsters and Treasures.

My view that is not any more complicated than that. However because of collapse of interest in GURPS, anybody doing this is forced to start from scratch in terms of promotion. So coming up with a decent presentation isn't going to be a magic bullet right away. It has to be part of an promotional effort to show why it works as well it does. And this includes support like a small stable of adventure and other supplemental material that other fantasy RPGs have.

Quote from: dbm;1097973Two thoughts on this: first, I don't want GURPS to become Savage Worlds or Fate, those niches are already covered. So a complete re-engineering of the system would just serve to alienate the existing player base in a D&D 4e style.

I'd like an evolution rather than a revolution. There are some clunky mechanics that could be smoothed out, much like the transition from 3E to 4E.

Quote from: dbm;1097973Two thoughts on this: first, I don't want GURPS to become Savage Worlds or Fate, those niches are already covered. So a complete re-engineering of the system would just serve to alienate the existing player base in a D&D 4e style.
....

Quote from: Aglondir;1098002I'd like an evolution rather than a revolution. There are some clunky mechanics that could be smoothed out, much like the transition from 3E to 4E.

SJG does not have to throw the baby out with the bathwater on this.

They could have a basic / advanced paradigm like TSR did back in the day.

Like I said in my previous posts, a true "Lite" version of Gurps.

Except I would not call it Gurps lite or basic, more like Gurps+ or Gurps 3d6, or something.

Sell it as a complete setting/game system. You'd keep the same stat line, DR, Parry , Block,  so it would be largely "upwards compatible" to main Gurps if someone feels that they want to get their RPG like a man on.

It really wouldn't be that hard to do - looking at Gurps it is more a matter of stripping things away, and universalizing costs. After all, it is just a simple 3d6 roll under skill system, that has had all kinds of additional gunk globed on top of it.

Full Gurps will still be there for the existing fans, But SJG will have a better gateway drug for gamers unfamiliar with SJG offerings.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1097683From this you use either linux or bsd, so, what about a virtual machine?

I don't even like running Java in my VM's, but when I have to, that's precisely how I run it. I'm sure there are Docker images out there for it now too, but I don't work with Java much anymore so I'm not sure.

Some including SJ might say otherwise, but it seems to me the fastest and best way to learn and play "GURPS Lite" is to play The Fantasy Trip, which SJG just republished.

It's the super-easy-to-learn and play version of the same type of RPG, which also comes has a setting, and several adventures available with quite a few more on the way.

Character creation is easy, and if you're ok with it just being low-tech, it's a great into to the type of game. Most of the main things I like about GURPS are in TFT. I've always related to GURPS as "advanced, detailed, toolbox TFT that addresses the limits of TFT and can be used for any type of game."

It seems to me that TFT checks the complaints mentioned above about ease of learning, simple damage model, fast character generation, existence of a setting to get started with, etc.


(I usually choose to play GURPS in TFT mode - fantasy medieval with lots of detailed tactical combat.)

Quote from: Skarg;1098057Some including SJ might say otherwise, but it seems to me the fastest and best way to learn and play "GURPS Lite" is to play The Fantasy Trip, which SJG just republished.

It's the super-easy-to-learn and play version of the same type of RPG, which also comes has a setting, and several adventures available with quite a few more on the way.

Character creation is easy, and if you're ok with it just being low-tech, it's a great into to the type of game. Most of the main things I like about GURPS are in TFT. I've always related to GURPS as "advanced, detailed, toolbox TFT that addresses the limits of TFT and can be used for any type of game."

It seems to me that TFT checks the complaints mentioned above about ease of learning, simple damage model, fast character generation, existence of a setting to get started with, etc.


(I usually choose to play GURPS in TFT mode - fantasy medieval with lots of detailed tactical combat.)

I find GURPS is at its best for fantasy, largely because of the detailed combat system. I never got the chance to play TFT back in the day, so I'm liking that TFT seems to be hitting my same likes as GURPS but with less fuss, since I have less time for the fuss of 4E.

Quote from: Skarg;1098057It seems to me that TFT checks the complaints mentioned above about ease of learning, simple damage model, fast character generation, existence of a setting to get started with, etc.

I was thinking the same thing. I have it on my shelf but haven't broken it out yet.

Quote from: Jaeger;1097913That's just crazy talk! Quick PC creation is always a plus.

If you're playing a low-lethality, character-intensive campaign, quick PC creation is a minus as it implies lack of depth.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1098080If you're playing a low-lethality, character-intensive campaign, quick PC creation is a minus as it implies lack of depth.

Ha. That's assuming the players want depth.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1098085Ha. That's assuming the players want depth.

"...character-intensive campaign..." ;)

But, you know, it's kinda ironic that especially the D&D community apparently values quick character generation. Think about it: a lot of these campaigns are going to be Critical Role-style, where you can expect to play your PC till level 20. Think about how many hours of play that is going to entail. And then some of the D&D guys think a 2 or 3 hour chargen is too long - it should be 15 minutes, at best. Makes no sense to me.

Anyway, from a GM perspective I get it - if the campaign is supposed to be more lethal than that. The expected mortality rate of a campaign should potentially pose a limit on chargen. For, the more elaborate the chargen, the more hesitant a GM should be regarding killing off a PC.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1098094But, you know, it's kinda ironic that especially the D&D community apparently values quick character generation. Think about it: a lot of these campaigns are going to be Critical Role-style, where you can expect to play your PC till level 20. Think about how many hours of play that is going to entail. And then some of the D&D guys think a 2 or 3 hour chargen is too long - it should be 15 minutes, at best. Makes no sense to me.

You're confusing "creating a character" with "generating relevant game stats."

I easily spend 2-3 hours coming up with characters for D&D type games (probably twice that), but only a fraction of that time is actual picking of game mechanics. That part typically does fall in the 15-20 minutes range (maybe upto an hour if its a new system).

Quote from: Jaeger;1097799No one ever said that it would be really helpful if Savage Worlds had a spreadsheet or app for character creation. Ever.

While no one ever said it, HeroLab has a Savage Worlds character generator.  The only generator that includes the source code, which made it easy for anyone writing a Savage Worlds supplement to create their own generator.  Some of them are complicated like Interface Zero.

Thanx everyone for comments.