Quote from: Toadmaster;1096724Having started with 1E Champions, it can be easy to gloss over how overwhelming the game has become. I don't know if I just picked up 5E today if I would have the patience to learn it.

You may have a point there, I started with Champions in 1982 and have been playing on and off ever since. So the transitions may be more painful for the neophyte... then again I still prefer AD&D to the newer incarnations, so hard to say. On the other hand, I have always been on the detail side, I am the only person I know who ever ran Aftermath, so it's probably just my preference.

The problem with the complete book and simplifying it for the players and GM is that unless the explicit and implicit setting of the powers chosen really appeals, it isn't going to sell, either.  And I don't think most of the people involved are very good at making something that appeals to a wide swath of people--probably because they are so geared into the DiY mindset themselves.  

You can't have "DiY to the wall" and "Simple as all get out" in the same game, unless someone has a great vision of how to turn a flavor of the former into the latter.  That takes a rare mind that can both produce a setting that is compelling in its own right, but without the ego involved of walling off customization options for the DiY buyers.

I struggled with HERO, starting with the 6E core books. I picked up the HERO Basic book and that helped, so I picked up 6E Fantasy HERO. That helped and hurt at the same time. 6E Fantasy HERO's concrete examples made some things click but it piled on the idea that I still had a lot of work to do before getting to the simple part - actually running the game.

It didn't help at all that the system relies on heavily coupled three letter acronyms, where you have to work your way back through the TLA chain so that you can figure out the original one that you were looking at. That said, I picked up Fantasy HERO Complete and it did help, but it didn't exactly get me over the top.

Two fan-made documents did:

The Fantasy HERO Primer:
https://www.herogames.com/files/file/367-fantasy-hero-primer/

How to Play HERO System:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ENrHV_IwGainzAofa1TuGuEUpGR5AbSZ4DBIi1YSuqU

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1096737The problem with the complete book and simplifying it for the players and GM is that unless the explicit and implicit setting of the powers chosen really appeals, it isn't going to sell, either.  And I don't think most of the people involved are very good at making something that appeals to a wide swath of people--probably because they are so geared into the DiY mindset themselves.  

You can't have "DiY to the wall" and "Simple as all get out" in the same game, unless someone has a great vision of how to turn a flavor of the former into the latter.  That takes a rare mind that can both produce a setting that is compelling in its own right, but without the ego involved of walling off customization options for the DiY buyers.

Well you aren't going to get to simple as all get out regardless of what you do. At best you will get something between AD&D and D&D 3E. I think the super broad DIY aspect is what causes many of the issues and the reputation.

Not suggesting HERO as a DIY system be replaced, simply that an additional stand alone "powered by HERO" game would be much easier for people to learn. Retro dungeon crawling games seem to be all the rage these days, so why not get on the wagon with a D&D flavored Dungeon HERO. It seems to have been successful for GURPS which suffers from many of the same complaints.    

Quote from: Eisenmann;1096748I struggled with HERO, starting with the 6E core books. I picked up the HERO Basic book and that helped, so I picked up 6E Fantasy HERO. That helped and hurt at the same time. 6E Fantasy HERO's concrete examples made some things click but it piled on the idea that I still had a lot of work to do before getting to the simple part - actually running the game.

It didn't help at all that the system relies on heavily coupled three letter acronyms, where you have to work your way back through the TLA chain so that you can figure out the original one that you were looking at. That said, I picked up Fantasy HERO Complete and it did help, but it didn't exactly get me over the top.

Two fan-made documents did:

The Fantasy HERO Primer:
https://www.herogames.com/files/file/367-fantasy-hero-primer/

How to Play HERO System:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ENrHV_IwGainzAofa1TuGuEUpGR5AbSZ4DBIi1YSuqU

You really might want to consider getting a copy of HERO 4E, although the rules are similar I think it was easier to grasp. Where 6E was supposed to be simplifying things, the additional 500 pages (yes 6E has more than 3x the page count of 4E) makes me think that was not the case. My personal opinion is 6E utterly failed at making the game easier, and in fact made it even more complicated and unapproachable.


At DTRPG for $10

HERO 4E


Or perhaps the original 3E era Fantasy HERO, which is a complete game in 2/3 the pages of 6E's Fantasy HERO Complete, and only $7.50 at DTRPG

Fantasy HERO 3E


Note 3E has some substantial mechanical differences, but the core concepts are the same. If you end up getting FH 3E and like it, there were books with pre-made spells, magic items and a bestiary (appropriately named, The Spell Book, Magic Items and The FH Bestiary). Iron Crown's (the Role master people) included HERO 3E stats in their Shadow World fantasy setting.

One significant drawback to HERO is that the modifiers for powers are somewhat awkward to do on a spreadsheet.

M&M on the other hand was very easy to make a spreadsheet for.

Quote from: Lurkndog;1097566One significant drawback to HERO is that the modifiers for powers are somewhat awkward to do on a spreadsheet.

M&M on the other hand was very easy to make a spreadsheet for.

Or spend the $30 for Hero Designer. Easy peasy.

Quote from: shuddemell;1097600Or spend the $30 for Hero Designer. Easy peasy.

I just can't bring myself to install any flavor of Java on my computers.

Quote from: Lynn;1097664I just can't bring myself to install any flavor of Java on my computers.

From this you use either linux or bsd, so, what about a virtual machine?

Quote from: Lynn;1097664I just can't bring myself to install any flavor of Java on my computers.

Your prerogative, but it does solve the issue of working powers in an app. It can also be done in a spreadsheet, but it's a lot more work. I also don't get the impression (correct me if I am wrong) that you are predisposed to use Hero anyway, so it may be a moot point.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1097683From this you use either linux or bsd, so, what about a virtual machine?

I might consider doing this on Raspbian (I've been wringing my hands over getting the Pi4 since my biz also makes something that runs on it), but not on one of my other computers (I have no issue with server-side Java). Bad releases 100% cured me on trusting Java or Flash on any computer I use.

Quote from: shuddemell;1097730Your prerogative, but it does solve the issue of working powers in an app. It can also be done in a spreadsheet, but it's a lot more work. I also don't get the impression (correct me if I am wrong) that you are predisposed to use Hero anyway, so it may be a moot point.

I use a spreadsheet now that a friend gave me and I've modified it a bit. For the last year, I have been playing in a 5th Edition / Fantasy Hero campaign and really enjoying it. I can't say I have played all versions of Hero extensively - mostly 1st edition Champions back when it came out in the 80s. But this is really the first time I have played Hero without it being a Champions game.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1096724...
Having started with 1E Champions, it can be easy to gloss over how overwhelming the game has become...

Quote from: shuddemell;1097600Or spend the $30 for Hero Designer. Easy peasy.

For me, this is my breaking point with games like the HERO system.

When an app/spreadsheet is helpful / quasi-required to create a character because of the math involved, I'm out!

Its like a player in my group who is also in a Pathfinder game. He says he would never run PF - And he would not even play it if he could not use the character app to help him track everything his PC has for the game.
And after seeing the character sheet for PF2e... Fuck that.

And I don't think I'm the only one who feels that way.

No one ever said that it would be really helpful if Savage Worlds had a spreadsheet or app for character creation. Ever.

Obviously HERO and GURPS have their adherents, but unless they are happy catering to their existing base (which they may very well be.)  IMHO they need a big re-think on how to present a new take on their system with an all in one system/setting RPG, if they are to recover any lost ground.

Quote from: Jaeger;1097799Obviously HERO and GURPS have their adherents, but unless they are happy catering to their existing base (which they may very well be.)  IMHO they need a big re-think on how to present a new take on their system with an all in one system/setting RPG, if they are to recover any lost ground.

SJG are trying to bring in new blood. They had the new Discworld RPG which is complete in one book, and the Dungeon Fantasy RPG box set that is also completely stand-alone.

Quote from: Jaeger;1097799For me, this is my breaking point with games like the HERO system.

When an app/spreadsheet is helpful / quasi-required to create a character because of the math involved, I'm out!

Its like a player in my group who is also in a Pathfinder game. He says he would never run PF - And he would not even play it if he could not use the character app to help him track everything his PC has for the game.
And after seeing the character sheet for PF2e... Fuck that.

And I don't think I'm the only one who feels that way.

No one ever said that it would be really helpful if Savage Worlds had a spreadsheet or app for character creation. Ever.

Obviously HERO and GURPS have their adherents, but unless they are happy catering to their existing base (which they may very well be.)  IMHO they need a big re-think on how to present a new take on their system with an all in one system/setting RPG, if they are to recover any lost ground.

The app is not necessary, it just makes things easier. I use an app for D&D5E character creation. I need it more than the hero app because it covers stuff in many books, etc.

Maybe not about Savage Worlds, but then again I dislike the mechanics of SW....

Quote from: dbm;1097812SJG are trying to bring in new blood. They had the new Discworld RPG

The Discworld RPG gets more of a "WTF did they license that IP for?" reaction; rather than: " Ohhh... people will be all over this!"

At this point if anyone mentions the Discworld RPG as an attempt to draw in new blood to GURPs, my default position is that they  are typing with their tongues firmly in cheek.

Quote from: dbm;1097812which is complete in one book, and the Dungeon Fantasy RPG box set that is also completely stand-alone.

With combat that is still more complex than GURPS lite? And still very much a toolkit game with no setting?

So not gonna get new players...

Not that Gurps lite is any great shakes either. Still lots of legacy-bits that just need to go, that add fiddly complication with no return during actual play at the table.

Attributes and skill that have different costs to buy and improve, because reasons? Check.  Shit like this to figure derived values: (STxST)/5. Check. And then taking that formula and multiplying by single digits and decimal places to find other derived values? On the character sheet? For a fun Fantasy game that is supposed to attract new players? LOLZ. Fuck. That. Shit.

Because if I need to break out a bloody calculator for anything on the character sheet during PC creation: You are Doing. It. Wrong.

Come on; I can create a D&D5e PC inside 15 minutes just rolling dice, filling out the Character sheet, with not a calculator to be seen... Same with a lot of Savage Worlds games.

It's not even a contest really, like taking candy from a baby.

Until the Gurps and Hero people are willing to take a real top down look at their system like D&D has done over several editions, their influence in the hobby will continue to dwindle.

Quote from: Jaeger;1097844The Discworld RPG gets more of a "WTF did they license that IP for?" reaction; rather than: " Ohhh... people will be all over this!"

Pratchett is pretty popular as an author, and has moved well past simple fantasy pastiche. If you want to bring genuinely new people into the hobby, something like this sounds like a good option...

QuoteAt this point if anyone mentions the Discworld RPG as an attempt to draw in new blood to GURPs, my default position is that they  are typing with their tongues firmly in cheek.

I didn't claim they did it well... Their own analysis seems to show otherwise!

QuoteWith combat that is still more complex than GURPS lite? And still very much a toolkit game with no setting?

So not gonna get new players...

Well, D&D has spent most of it's history coming without a setting. Fate Core comes without one, so does Savage Worlds. With an RPG intended to cover a lot of game space having a campaign world built in is far from essential. Last time I looked at Mythras it also lacked a game world beyond an 'implied setting', which GURPS Dungeon Fantasy also has.

QuoteAttributes and skill that have different costs to buy and improve, because reasons? Check.  Shit like this to figure derived values: (STxST)/5. Check. And then taking that formula and multiplying by single digits and decimal places to find other derived values? On the character sheet? For a fun Fantasy game that is supposed to attract new players? LOLZ. Fuck. That. Shit.

That's cool, GURPS clearly isn't for you. It doesn't need to be for everyone.

QuoteCome on; I can create a D&D5e PC inside 15 minutes just rolling dice, filling out the Character sheet, with not a calculator to be seen... Same with a lot of Savage Worlds games.

So can I, but I can't get an enjoyable long term game out of either system, personally, so being able to quickly create a character isn't really a plus. For me, that is getting to the not-fun quicker...

QuoteUntil the Gurps and Hero people are willing to take a real top down look at their system like D&D has done over several editions, their influence in the hobby will continue to dwindle.

The system is far from perfect, I quite agree. But no game should sacrifice it's strengths for a 'me too' attempt at sales. Might as well play one of the d20 generic games at that point (I don't like them, either, and I've read many of them).

GURPS is clearly a game that follows a different furrow than the majority of 'new' games, but that doesn't make it inherently 'bad'. In my opinion the biggest challenge GURPS faces is a paucity of GM tools to make running the game easier. They are working on that strongly at the moment, with a third Dungeon Fantasy Kickstarter about to come and the start of 3rd party licensing bringing some new modules and campaign guides.