Hero System is one of my favorite RPGS, but there are a few things that could be improved. I’ve created a rules variant that uses the Normal Damage dice scale for Killing Damage, which eliminates half-dice and rolling for a STUN multiplier. The goal is to speed up combat and make the game simpler. I’ve been playing Hero for some time, but I’m not an expert-- so let me know if I missed anything.
Rules Modifications1. Use the Damage Classes Table to convert Killing Damage dice to Normal Damage dice. Example: Under the original rules, a Desert Eagle does 2d6 BODY, but now it does 6d6.
1 pip = 1d6
1/2D = 2d6
1d6 = 3d6
1d6+1 = 4d6
1.5 d6 = 5d6
2d6 = 6d6
2d6+1 = 7d6
2.5 d6 = 8d6
3d6 = 9d6
etc.
2. Since KA’s now do more damage, the BODY characteristic must increase. Use the same scale as STUN:
- Base Value: 20
- Cost: 1 CP per +2 BODY
- Characteristic maximum: 50
3. In combat, subtract Killing Damage from both STUN and BODY. Example: The Avenger shoots the Dark Archer for 18 BODY. The Dark Archer’s armor provides 6 rPD, which reduces the damage to 12. Adding his 5 PD to the armor reduces the STUN damage to 7 STUN.
4. The Death threshold remains the same (negative BODY).
5. BODY heals at REC x 3 per month, rather than REC per month.
6. RKA’s are now purchased as Blast (does BODY). HKA’s are now purchased as a Hand-to-Hand Attack (does BODY). There’s no additional cost for the “does BODY” modifier, but you must declare it when you buy the power.
7. Converting published NPC’s is simple. First, multiply BODY x3. Next, use the Damage Scale Table to convert any Killing Attacks to the Normal Damage scale.
Edit: This doesn't work right, it is too lethal.
Of the various changes made in 6th Ed I think one was to eliminate the Stun Multiplier die. Killing Attacks now do a flat x2 Stun. So 7 Killing Damage also does 14 Stun. Advantages can be purchased to increase the multiplier.
Quote from: Certified;953715Of the various changes made in 6th Ed I think one was to eliminate the Stun Multiplier die. Killing Attacks now do a flat x2 Stun. So 7 Killing Damage also does 14 Stun. Advantages can be purchased to increase the multiplier.
Hi Certfied: Are you sure? I just checked Champions Complete (p. 156):
QuoteTo determine how much STUN damage the attack does, the character rolls ½d6 (the STUN Multiplier) and multiplies the result by the BODY done.
I was thinking along these lines last night, but one thing stalled my train of thought: How does Transform work?
Quote from: Aglondir;953717Hi Certfied: Are you sure? I just checked Champions Complete (p. 156):
Yeah, unfortunately, I wasn't positive.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;953726I was thinking along these lines last night, but one thing stalled my train of thought: How does Transform work?
I cross-posted this on the Hero System forum, and they showed me why it won't work.
- Original rules: Dark Archer has 10 BODY and armor that does 6 rPD. He gets shot by a Desert Eagle (2d6) for 7 BODY, which the armor reduces to 1 BODY.
- My proposal: Dark Archer has 30 BODY and armor that does 6 rPD. He gets shot by a Desert Eagle (6d6) for 21 BODY, which the armor reduces to 15 BODY.
It makes the game too lethal. Under the original rules, the Dark Archer lost 1/10 of his BODY, but now he loses 50% of it. Basically, it makes Resistant Defenses underpowered.
Quote from: Aglondir;953729I cross-posted this on the Hero System forum, and they showed me why it won't work.
- Original rules: Dark Archer has 10 BODY and armor that does 6 rPD. He gets shot by a Desert Eagle (2d6) for 7 BODY, which the armor reduces to 1 BODY.
- My proposal: Dark Archer has 30 BODY and armor that does 6 rPD. He gets shot by a Desert Eagle (6d6) for 21 BODY, which the armor reduces to 15 BODY.
It makes the game too lethal. Under the original rules, the Dark Archer lost 1/10 of his BODY, but now he loses 50% of it. Basically, it makes Resistant Defenses underpowered.
Good point. I suppose if there was an easy fix, Herodom Assembled would have hit on it by now. :)
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;953734Good point. I suppose if there was an easy fix, Herodom Assembled would have hit on it by now. :)
Herodom Assembled does have a good variant. Here's how it works:
For Killing Damage:
Step 1: Find the correspnding Normal damage value on the Damage Class Table. For a 2d6 KA, this is 6d6.
Step 2: Roll the 6d6 for the STUN damage.
Step 3: Count the pips for BODY damage.
Step 4: Apply defenses and subtract from STUN/BODY as normal.
Example: Dark Archer has 30 STUN, 10 BODY, 5 PD, and 6rPD. The Avenger shoots him with a Desert Eagle. He rolls 6d6, for 21 STUN and 6 BODY. This is reduced to 10 STUN (from the PD + armor) and 0 BODY (from the armor).
This is a bit less lethal than the original rules, since a 2d6 KA usuaally does an average of 7 BODY and now it does 6.
Quote from: Aglondir;953739This is a bit less lethal than the original rules, since a 2d6 KA usuaally does an average of 7 BODY and now it does 6.
It also adds 7 STUN to the 6E average; on average, it looks like this variant will usually add about +1.17 STUN to Killing damage per damage class. This may offset the loss of .16 BODY per DC.
A middle way might be to fix the STUN multiplier as a flat x2, and to avoid half-dice, take a page from the d6 system and go in steps of +1, +2, whole die.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;953742It also adds 7 STUN to the 6E average; on average, it looks like this variant will usually add about +1.17 STUN to Killing damage per damage class. This may offset the loss of .16 BODY per DC.
Correct.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;953742A middle way might be to fix the STUN multiplier as a flat x2, and to avoid half-dice, take a page from the d6 system and go in steps of +1, +2, whole die.
Or a STUN multiplier = flat 3. That way the 2d6 KA is doing an average of 21 STUN, which is the same as a 6d6 Normal attack.
Or maybe I might to do this:
1. There are no KA's or RKA's. Damage is damage.
2. There are no Resistant Defenses. Defenses are defenses.
3. Make STUN = Hit Points.
4. If your HP <= 0 from a lethal attack, you're dying, blah blah blah.
5. If your HP <= 0 from a non-lethal attack, you're knocked out, blah blah blah.
Quote from: Aglondir;953758Or maybe I might to do this:
1. There are no KA's or RKA's. Damage is damage.
2. There are no Resistant Defenses. Defenses are defenses.
3. Make STUN = Hit Points.
4. If your HP <= 0 from a lethal attack, you're dying, blah blah blah.
5. If your HP <= 0 from a non-lethal attack, you're knocked out, blah blah blah.
That's effectively how M&M 3e does it... (not saying it's a bad thing)
Quote from: Aglondir;953758Or maybe I might to do this:
1. There are no KA's or RKA's. Damage is damage.
2. There are no Resistant Defenses. Defenses are defenses.
3. Make STUN = Hit Points.
4. If your HP <= 0 from a lethal attack, you're dying, blah blah blah.
5. If your HP <= 0 from a non-lethal attack, you're knocked out, blah blah blah.
We played Hero 6e with a similar variant:
1. There are no KA's or RKA's. Use the blast/HA scaling (1d6/5 base points).
2. There are no Resistant Defenses.
3. both stun and body damage exists, at normal prices.
4. Damage is score normally (full d6 rolls to stun; 1=0, 2-5=1, 6=2 for body damage.
5. PD protects fully against stun, and 50% to body
So the desert Eagle (now 6D6) can hit, rolling (5,2,6,6,4,2), doing 23 stun and 8 body. Your 5 PD and 6 rPD probably gets turned in for PD 14, which reduces stun damage to 7 and body damage to 1.
So as you see, it's lower lethality than normal, but doesn't have the same whatever-blow-drops-you-determines-lethality effect.
I posted this in my Hero System thread. Seemed appropriate for this one.
Fpr Superheroic games, I've toyed with the idea of making Killing damage just normal where only Resistant Defenses affected it and there was a Body Multiplier roll 1=1x, 2=1.5, 3=2. Killing would be a +1/4 Advantage and the Body Multiple would not increase potential knockback. Only applying Resistant Def might be fine for Heroic games.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;953803That's effectively how M&M 3e does it... (not saying it's a bad thing)
I thought M and M used Damage Saves?
Quote from: Aglondir;953758Or maybe I might to do this:
1. There are no KA's or RKA's. Damage is damage.
2. There are no Resistant Defenses. Defenses are defenses.
3. Make STUN = Hit Points.
4. If your HP <= 0 from a lethal attack, you're dying, blah blah blah.
5. If your HP <= 0 from a non-lethal attack, you're knocked out, blah blah blah.
SFX would determine if an attack was lethal or not? I could see that working but in a superhero setting there could be a number of fringe cases.
Quote from: Aglondir;953756Or a STUN multiplier = flat 3. That way the 2d6 KA is doing an average of 21 STUN, which is the same as a 6d6 Normal attack.
We've been using a flat 3 so far. Its worked all right.
Quote from: Nexus;953837SFX would determine if an attack was lethal or not? I could see that working but in a superhero setting there could be a number of fringe cases.
Right. Some things would be obviously lethal (guns, blades, acid, etc.) Other things obviously non-lethal (punches, tasers, tear gas, etc). The player can decide when a power is bought if it's lethal or not. Are replusor blasts L or NL? Player decides. Is indestructible norse hammer L or NL? Player decides.
Quote from: Nexus;953834Fpr Superheroic games, I've toyed with the idea of making Killing damage just normal where only Resistant Defenses affected it and there was a Body Multiplier roll 1=1x, 2=1.5, 3=2. Killing would be a +1/4 Advantage and the Body Multiple would not increase potential knockback. Only applying Resistant Def might be fine for Heroic games.
How does it work? Say I have a Desert Eagle (2d6 RKA).
Quote from: Aglondir;953756Or a STUN multiplier = flat 3. That way the 2d6 KA is doing an average of 21 STUN, which is the same as a 6d6 Normal attack.
Minor note: the flat 3 multiplier still has a higher variability than the multiple dice. This makes it better for higher levels of defense. For example, at defense 21, 2d6x3 has average damage 2.9 vs 6d6 average damage of 1.7.
In-game, this can be relevant for low-level foes. If you've got a bunch of little foes who can't get through defense on average, they are more dangerous if they've got killing attacks. I found this a little strange, since intuitively sharp attacks like swords are best against less armored foes.
Quote from: Willie the Duck;953824We played Hero 6e with a similar variant:
1. There are no KA's or RKA's. Use the blast/HA scaling (1d6/5 base points).
2. There are no Resistant Defenses.
3. both stun and body damage exists, at normal prices.
4. Damage is score normally (full d6 rolls to stun; 1=0, 2-5=1, 6=2 for body damage.
5. PD protects fully against stun, and 50% to body
So the desert Eagle (now 6D6) can hit, rolling (5,2,6,6,4,2), doing 23 stun and 8 body. Your 5 PD and 6 rPD probably gets turned in for PD 14, which reduces stun damage to 7 and body damage to 1.
So as you see, it's lower lethality than normal, but doesn't have the same whatever-blow-drops-you-determines-lethality effect.
I like it. But on Step 5, is it PD only? Why not ED as well?
Quote from: Nexus;953835I thought M and M used Damage Saves?
I meant in the way that 'Damage is Damage, it's up to the GM or player to decide if they're killing someone or not.' sense. The mechanics differ, but the intent is what I was talking about.
M&M 3rd Edition relies only on Damage Saves.
M&M 2nd Edition had the option for those who felt more comfortable with Hit Points to be able to use that option. It was in the main rulebook.
As for lethal damage. It's not considered the default. It's not the assumed most common damage type. And there-for takes special effort and specific intent for a character in M&M to kill.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;953916M&M 3rd Edition relies only on Damage Saves.
M&M 2nd Edition had the option for those who felt more comfortable with Hit Points to be able to use that option. It was in the main rulebook.
As for lethal damage. It's not considered the default. It's not the assumed most common damage type. And there-for takes special effort and specific intent for a character in M&M to kill.
Hit Points are in the 2E
Mastermind's Manual (and I keep thinking of using them, several other options in that book, and 2E in general to build a "D&D That Never Was"); the core book contains a distinction between Lethal and Nonlethal Damage, with lethal damage adding a second track of conditions on failed damage saves. The default is assumed to be nonlethal.
3E makes no difference between lethal and nonlethal damage types in the core rulebook, but includes the lethal damage rules from 2E in the
Gamemaster's Guide.
Quote from: Aglondir;953912I like it. But on Step 5, is it PD only? Why not ED as well?
The same would be true for ED. I only referred to PD because our example was a desert eagle.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;953915I meant in the way that 'Damage is Damage, it's up to the GM or player to decide if they're killing someone or not.' sense. The mechanics differ, but the intent is what I was talking about.
Thanks!
Quote from: Aglondir;953884How does it work? Say I have a Desert Eagle (2d6 RKA).
Sorry, that wasn't very clear.
For a Desert Eagle (DC 6 2d6 Klling), for example
1 Roll the Damage Class in dice like a Normal Attack
2 Stun equals the face value of the dice as usual
3. Body is calculated as usual but is multiplied before its applied to the appropriate Resistant Defense Rill d3
1 Body x1
2 Body x1.5
3 Body x2
4. Knockback is determined from the unmodified Body.
For Heroic games. step 3 might not be required. I'm still tinkering with the idea.
So a Desert Eagle under these rules would inflict: 9 Body and 21 Stun stopped by Resistant Defense (or total Defense in some cases). Slightly more Body with the potential maxing out much more easily than a Normal attack.
Quote from: Nexus;953971Sorry, that wasn't very clear.
For Heroic games. step 3 might not be required. I'm still tinkering with the idea.
Not a fan of step 3. Don't want another step; don't want to roll a d3. It's why I dislike the original KA mechanic. But otherwise, it's good.
Cool.
Quote from: Willie the Duck;953959The same would be true for ED. I only referred to PD because our example was a desert eagle.
Cool.
Quote from: Aglondir;954506Not a fan of step 3. Don't want another step; don't want to roll a d3. It's why I dislike the original KA mechanic. But otherwise, it's good.
Fair enough. My problem with Killing Attacks was how wildly swingy their Stun totals could be which could make them more efficient for generating Stun than normal attacks particularly when Increased Stun Multiplier was brought into play. (aka: The Stun Lotto effect) so my solutions tended to focus on that aspect.
Instead of a Body Multiplier for Killing Attacks what about just changing how Body is determined?
A face value of:
1-4 = 1 Body
5-6 = 2 Body
Instead of the usual range
1 0 Body
2-5 1 Body
6 2 Body
Quote from: Aglondir;953758Or maybe I might to do this:
1. There are no KA's or RKA's. Damage is damage.
2. There are no Resistant Defenses. Defenses are defenses.
3. Make STUN = Hit Points.
4. If your HP <= 0 from a lethal attack, you're dying, blah blah blah.
5. If your HP <= 0 from a non-lethal attack, you're knocked out, blah blah blah.
How would being reduced to zero or less HP from a combination of attacks be handled? Would it only what type of attack put the character below the threshold?
Quote from: Nexus;959972How would being reduced to zero or less HP from a combination of attacks be handled? Would it only what type of attack put the character below the threshold?
Good question. Two possible answers:
1. Death is determined by the attack that reduced you below the threshold.
Example A: A taser attack (non-lethal) reduces you to 1 HP, and then you get shot (lethal) for -25 HP. You're dead.
Example B: You get shot (lethal) which reduces you to 1 HP, and then get hit with a taser (non-lethal) for -25 HP. You're unconscious.
It gets more complicated when you alternate lethal and non-lethal attacks in equal measure (e.g. tased, shot, tased, shot, etc.) In that case, the GM could take into account what caused the majority of damage.
2. Use the D20 non-lethal rules, where non-lethal damage accumulates. Probably one of my favorite mechanics. But it's moving further away from Hero.
Quote from: Aglondir;9602762. Use the D20 non-lethal rules, where non-lethal damage accumulates. Probably one of my favorite mechanics. But it's moving further away from Hero.
I'm not familiar with those rules.
Quote from: Nexus;960288I'm not familiar with those rules.
Quote from: 3.5 SRDCertain attacks deal nonlethal damage. Other effects, such as heat or being exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage. When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you've accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not "real" damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you're staggered, and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. It doesn't matter whether the nonlethal damage equals or exceeds your current hit points because the nonlethal damage has gone up or because your current hit points have gone down.
Example: Avenger has 20 HP. On round 1 he is shot for 15 damage, so he has 5 HP left. Next round he gets tased for 6 NLD. Since 6>5, he's knocked out. NLD fades 1 HP/hour/level.
Quote from: Aglondir;960441Example: Avenger has 20 HP. On round 1 he is shot for 15 damage, so he has 5 HP left. Next round he gets tased for 6 NLD. Since 6>5, he's knocked out. NLD fades 1 HP/hour/level.
Oh okay. Thank you.
Quote from: Nexus;959971Instead of a Body Multiplier for Killing Attacks what about just changing how Body is determined?
A face value of:
1-4 = 1 Body
5-6 = 2 Body
Instead of the usual range
1 0 Body
2-5 1 Body
6 2 Body
Anyone have any thoughts on this approach? It was entirely off the cuff.
Quote from: Nexus;962320Anyone have any thoughts on this approach? It was entirely off the cuff.
Can you give an example of how it would work in play?
First, sorry this thread completely slipped my mind.
When you roll for Normal damage a value of 1 on the die generate 0 Body, 2-4 is 1 Body and 6 generate 2 Body.
As an alterate for Killing Damage, roll them as you would Normal (1 six sided die per Damage Class) but a value of 1 on the die generaes 1-4 generates 1 Body and 5-6 generates 2 Body. Which would create a base amount of Body equal to the Damage Class and slightly higher results on Average while Average Stun would remain the same and the Max possible Body would be the same (x2 Damage Class).
Killing Attack Body would still only be stoped by Resistance Defense, an Die roll would be used for Knockback, etc.
For example, a Damage Class 6 attack the roll: 1 6 2 4 1 1 would generate:
Normal: 4 Body 15 Stun (bad roll!)
Killing: 7 Body 15 Stun
Using this House Rule
Killing doe more Body, the Stun Lotto effect is eliminated and there is no additional rolls need. Killing could just become and Advantage (+1/4 and +1/2?). For games that use Hit Location the Normal Damage Stun and Body Multipliers would apply to both types of Damage.
Quote from: Nexus;985493First, sorry this thread completely slipped my mind.
Thanks for the example; it looks like a fun variant.
However, after running a season of Hero (without any house rules) I've discovered there's just way too many rules for my Heroic investigative campaign. I will always enjoy playing Hero, and I do believe it's a masterpice of game design. But I'm going to switch to something else. Oddly, when I examine all of my proposed Hero "fixes" it starts to look a bit like Gurps.
Quote from: Aglondir;986068Thanks for the example; it looks like a fun variant.
However, after running a season of Hero (without any house rules) I've discovered there's just way too many rules for my Heroic investigative campaign. I will always enjoy playing Hero, and I do believe it's a masterpice of game design. But I'm going to switch to something else. Oddly, when I examine all of my proposed Hero "fixes" it starts to look a bit like Gurps.
I found the GURP has more rules than Hero System, IMO. I used Hero for more light, more cinematic games. But tastes are tastes. Good luck with the game. :)