Quote from: Thanos;751392I kinda like d100. Maybe something that doesn't have levels but skills increase? But I'm open to anything.

WFRP 2e?

Quote from: J Arcane;751550A lot of the numbers at the high-end are balanced with the expectation that PCs will be swimming in magical gear by the time they get to high level.

PCs without magical assistance will find higher HD/level challenges almost insurmountable without assistance from magical loot, and some creatures even at the low level can't be harmed at all without magical weapons.

Non-magical classes in particular will have a very rough row to hoe, and in a low magic setting, that's pretty much gonna be everyone in the party.

Not so fun.

Well, I don't use challenge ratings, so that's not an issue for me. A weak creature that you need a magic weapon to hurt seems fairly easy to deal with. The gm need not inundate the world with magic creatures in a low magic setting.

I have done low magic campaigns before I really don't see why it can't be done with 3X.

Quote from: Simlasa;751609So I guess you can't go by the DR ratings... and the stats are too complex to judge how deadly the creature is just by looking at them?
Except for playing in a Pathfinder game I don't know shit about D20.

It's a matter of how the numbers play out. Inflated hit point and damage numbers, reams of special powers, and so forth. There's an arms race at the core of by-the-book 3E, and going low-magic essentially deprives the PCs of really participating.

It's not some OSR battleground here, we're not talking about CR, it's beyond 'oh the players will just have to be clever,' or 'oh it's not balanced', it's 'the players will be dead.'

Quote from: J Arcane;751663It's a matter of how the numbers play out. Inflated hit point and damage numbers, reams of special powers, and so forth.

Couldn't you just use lower powered creatures?
If the rules are that hard to tweak, if you can't go off the reservation even a little bit without doing complex black-box math solutions... sheesh! Why would anyone choose to play that?

Our Pathfinder GM claims his setup is 'sandbox'... that the all the creatures are out there and it's up to us to figure out which ones we oughtta run away from. Is he just lying? Is that not really possible? If he denied us high powered magic equipment and we just stuck with killable targets... that would not be possible?

That all assumes: The Balance matters, the GM doesn't select the monsters present, all encounters are lethal combats, GM can't create or tailor their own items, there is nothing else going on and no other means to advancement, etc.

Perhaps it's past time to get rid of these assumptions and try gaming life without it?

I've played in a 3.5 campaign where magic items were rare, and we didn't have permanent magic items until we were about sixth level, and then started collecting a few (mainly ones we made ourselves or were given as special rewards from grateful monarchs.  Don't get me started on what the ungrateful monarchs gave us...)  

Advancement was slower.   Spells became more important.  Spells to enchant items were actually useful, and used up slots that would normally have gone to spells of mass destruction.   But it worked out just fine, because low-level equipment kept the game lower
level for a longer time.  The GM also only allowed approved feats/prestige classes/etc,
so you didn't have things like vows of poverty that substitute for magic items with personal powers.  

So I'd say if you want to run a 3.5 game without magic items, just tell the players that you
want a low-level game, and do it.  As long as their expectations are in line with yours, it should work out fine.

Magic, monsters, items I can handle. It's the hit point progression that I find problematic.

BTW the more I read about RuneQuest the more I like it. I may pick it up for myself.

Back on track with out magic weapons how do you handle high, 70 hp up for example, foes?

Also, don't know if I mentioned this, this will be a setting of my own creation and I'll just cherry pick monsters etc. from 3.5. Most monsters will be humanoid and will have class levels.

Quote from: Opaopajr;751681That all assumes: The Balance matters, the GM doesn't select the monsters present, all encounters are lethal combats, GM can't create or tailor their own items, there is nothing else going on and no other means to advancement, etc.

Perhaps it's past time to get rid of these assumptions and try gaming life without it?

No freaking shit.

While this may come as a profound shock to a couple of you, gamers managed perfectly well before the training wheels concept of "challenge ratings" was invented.  GMs could gauge for themselves what their parties could steamroll, what would provide their parties with tough challenges, and what would turn their parties into mere speedbumps, without the editorial staff of gaming companies spoonfeeding them.

Since I don't believe that gamers suddenly turned stupid when 3X was released, I expect they could easily go back to figuring those things out for themselves.

Obviously a low- to zero-magic campaign would require adjustments.  Players would have to ratchet down their expectations of how many enemies they could fight, of what skill levels and how often.  They'd have to negotiate and exercise cunning more, and execute fewer frontal assaults.  They'd have to expect that a grueling battle would enforce several days of recuperation, rather than several minutes of popping healing potions.  I figure, however, that a party buying into a low-to-zero campaign's already anticipating it.

As far as XP goes?  Equally simple.  Surprisingly simple.  The group likely has a consensus on how fast PCs progress.  The GM adopts a GURPS-like XP system to handle that: say, 1-3 pts for good roleplaying, 1-2 pts for good combat, 1-2 points for success in a long mission, and lop off 1-3 pts for bad RP or disasters.  Convert that concept to XP in whatever system you play, because any GM who isn't a rookie should have a good notion of how much XP per session constitutes a "proper" amount.  None of that's dependent on the hit dice of the monsters one fights, or the amount of treasure one scrounges ... nor should it be.

Now of course there are gamers who can't handle ditching RAW and bringing in (oh the horror!) h-o-u-s-e r-u-l-e-s.  Fair enough; it takes all kinds.  But JArcane's handwringing is badly overdone.  It's not that any of this Can't Be Done!!!  It's that you need to go off the RAW reservation, as well as changing some assumptions, to do it.  I expect the OP's already wrapped his head around that.

Quote from: Thanos;751709Back on track with out magic weapons how do you handle high, 70 hp up for example, foes?

I expect the answer would be somewhere between "Not through frontal assault, anyway" or "You don't."

It's like how I handle dragons, which is to make them near-to-invincible engines of terrible destruction that no sane person will willingly engage.  Exactly three dragons have been killed in the 36 year history of my campaign.  

The fellow who killed the first one became an instant legend, the deed starting him on the path of a Conanesque career.  

The lady who killed the second one (throwing a dagger into its eye because she didn't have any other way to so much as scratch its scales, so she reasoned ... then rolled a 3 on 3d6 for a critical hit, then rolled another 3 on the crit for an instant kill) figured that no one would ever believe her -- with some justification -- and swore the party to secrecy.

The lady who killed the third one, just a couple years ago, was the highest point-total character in the campaign's history, is by about two-fold the most powerful PC wizard ever, and whacked the dragon in the head with a maximum strength Ice Sphere.  From behind.  From above.  With her being invisible.  With the dragon heavily distracted in engaging ground targets.  In like fashion, she really doesn't want to be called "Dragonslayer," and figures it'd attract more unwelcome hotshots than she wants to deal with.

Other than those three occasions, my parties have handled dragons prudently, on the rare times they've been encountered.  To wit: bribe them with a herd of cattle, talk very politely and respectfully, or run like hell and hope the dragon didn't notice them.

That's how your group handles foes over a certain power level.

Quote from: Thanos;751709Back on track with out magic weapons how do you handle high, 70 hp up for example, foes?

Also, don't know if I mentioned this, this will be a setting of my own creation and I'll just cherry pick monsters etc. from 3.5. Most monsters will be humanoid and will have class levels.

The PCs have to live that long to get those high HP. And in a low magic setting that is going to be tricky. Moreso if magical healing is few to none.

If the players get so high in levels eventually then they should be facing appropriately skilled foes. It balances out in the end. Though I cannot personally say how 3e works for that.

Quote from: Thanos;751709Back on track with out magic weapons how do you handle high, 70 hp up for example, foes?

Also, don't know if I mentioned this, this will be a setting of my own creation and I'll just cherry pick monsters etc. from 3.5. Most monsters will be humanoid and will have class levels.

Trebuchets. And ballista. Oh, and lots of arrows. Seriously.

That and you already answered it partially in your next paragraph, "I'll just cherry pick monsters, etc from 3.5." Eventually those monsters will either be such a fat target when marching up against PC militaries (assuming name level campaigning), or will get the drop and PCs will have to flee and adjust their tactics.

You'll be surprised how ingenious and dangerous a few determined minds can be, no matter how fragile. Besides, wouldn't it warm the cockles of your heart to see your players turn into PC versions of Tucker's Kobolds? Oh why would you ever want to wave that opportunity to be devious away?

Quote from: Omega;751918The PCs have to live that long to get those high HP. And in a low magic setting that is going to be tricky. Moreso if magical healing is few to none.

If the players get so high in levels eventually then they should be facing appropriately skilled foes. It balances out in the end. Though I cannot personally say how 3e works for that.

I don't see why characters would have trouble living in a low magic setting.

Many of us have run campaigns with low magic, so the problem, if any, might be playstyle.

Is 70hp supposed to be a lot in 3.5? Have you seen how much damage 2-handed power attack can do?

I had a 4th level Fighter in a low-magic 3.5e campaign. With mundane greatsword using full power attack he did 2d6 + 6 (STR 18, 2-handed) +8 (full PA) +2 (specialised) = 2d6+ 16, average 23 damage per hit, x2 on a crit.
It gets a lot worse at higher level.

Personally, in a low- to zero-magic game, I wouldn't be bothering with giant ubercreatures.  That's not what'd provide a true threat to a party.  It's a company of perfectly mundane, human infantry, a third of them sword-and-board, a third of them halbardiers, and the rest archers, wearing Baron von Evyl's livery, charging at them and screaming "No quarter!!!"

Quote from: S'mon;751973Is 70hp supposed to be a lot in 3.5? Have you seen how much damage 2-handed power attack can do?

I had a 4th level Fighter in a low-magic 3.5e campaign. With mundane greatsword using full power attack he did 2d6 + 6 (STR 18, 2-handed) +8 (full PA) +2 (specialised) = 2d6+ 16, average 23 damage per hit, x2 on a crit.
It gets a lot worse at higher level.

70hp is nothing in 3x. Basically if played right Ravenswing is spot on.