I have an idea for a low magic campaign. Ideally I'd like to use 3.5 as all my group have it already and it would make things easier. How every I'm finding the leveling system/hit points are making none magical weapons a problem. So... I'm looking for a way around that, either with a new rules set or (preferred) some modified system for 3.5.
The idea here is finding a +1/+1 weapon should be a big deal. Something along the lines of only the mightiest heroes have them.
Most fantasy RPGs except those derived from D&D work fine without magic. Do you have any other preferences to narrow it down further?
Does it have to be 3e/3.5e based?
Well, Iron Heroes was supposed to be this, but it's... not to everyone's taste.
I suggest the Mongoose d20 Conan RPG if you can find it.
Of course, if you're not tied to a d20 ruleset, there are plenty of other possibilities.
Don't use D&D.
The more I think about it the more I'm not tied to 3.5 or any variations thereof but my players might. I'd like to get feed back on both.
I kinda like d100. Maybe something that doesn't have levels but skills increase? But I'm open to anything. Doesn't Call of Cthulu have a generic rule system or something like that?
Remember I'm looking for a rules set so setting doesn't matter.
E6 might be good.
Quote from: Thanos;751392The more I think about it the more I'm not tied to 3.5 or any variations thereof but my players might. I'd like to get feed back on both.
I kinda like d100. Maybe something that doesn't have levels but skills increase? But I'm open to anything. Doesn't Call of Cthulu have a generic rule system or something like that?
Remember I'm looking for a rules set so setting doesn't matter.
It's BRP, yes, but I'd suggest getting a copy of RQ 6 if you're going for a fantasy game.
Edit: Hah, nice avatar, I read that comic aaaaages ago :D. OMMMMMMMMMMMMM
Quote from: Rincewind1;751395It's BRP, yes, but I'd suggest getting a copy of RQ 6 if you're going for a fantasy game.
Yup this. Runequest 6 is pure awesome.
Fantasy Craft would also work, considering you are fond of d20.
D&D works fine with low magic, just give it a whirl.
As for low magic, just cap spells to spell level 3 or less, have very tight control on their access, and throw in magical gear and the like as relics "imbued by the Gods during great heroics." Makes stuff rare and precious.
Also change out the XP system to allow more than one method of progress. Watch as players evolve from the same ol' same ol' to one where they choose to parley, bring hirelings, or try to rout opponents by shaking morale. It's dirt easy to accomplish as you merely need to strike things out and let the players know ahead of time the lowered importance of killing everything they see.
Quote from: Endless Flight;751415Fantasy Craft would also work, considering you are fond of d20.
Most definitely and the forum is very helpful. (Crafty Games).
Quote from: Thanos;751383I have an idea for a low magic campaign. Ideally I'd like to use 3.5 as all my group have it already and it would make things easier. How every I'm finding the leveling system/hit points are making none magical weapons a problem. So... I'm looking for a way around that, either with a new rules set or (preferred) some modified system for 3.5.
The idea here is finding a +1/+1 weapon should be a big deal. Something along the lines of only the mightiest heroes have them.
I just want to say one word to you. Just one word.
Ready? Listening?
Harnmaster (http://www.columbiagames.com/cgi-bin/query/harn/cfg/single.cfg?product_id=4001L)
Yeah, Fantasy Craft. It's D20 based, but is very modular and magic/healing is not a given. It's trivial to not include arcane and/or divine magic.
When it comes to treasure, the over-abundance of magic items from D&D is replaced with more detail on exceptional craftsmanship.
BRP and GURPS both come to mind.
Quote from: Caesar Slaad;751424Yeah, Fantasy Craft. It's D20 based, but is very modular and magic/healing is not a given. It's trivial to not include arcane and/or divine magic.
When it comes to treasure, the over-abundance of magic items from D&D is replaced with more detail on exceptional craftsmanship.
Or make any of the above harder or easier by simple campaign traits. No exotic fix needed. They already spell it out in convenient sidebars or easy to use GM tools. And not many books (3) with no need for that even.
Quote from: Opaopajr;751416Also change out the XP system to allow more than one method of progress. Watch as players evolve from the same ol' same ol' to one where they choose to parley, bring hirelings, or try to rout opponents by shaking morale. It's dirt easy to accomplish as you merely need to strike things out and let the players know ahead of time the lowered importance of killing everything they see.
This. Also, just erase every spell above level 1. Make them research anything higher. It'll keep magic down when it costs 9,000 GP or whatever to learn Fireball since they won't have money to go to Ye Olde Magic Shoppe.
Also, put me down for another vote for E6. It's brilliance is getting rid of the quadratic wizards.
Quote from: Thanos;751392I kinda like d100.
That would be my top choice for non-D&D fantasy. :D
Openquest (http://d101games.com/books/openquest/) for no-frills d100 fantasy gaming. Runequest 6 (http://www.thedesignmechanism.com/runequest.php) for something a tad crunchier (still not nearly as crunchy as high-level 3.5e).
Both have a very modular approach to magic, i.e. play just fine without it.
Low magic?
AD&D: with the magic users and priests either toned down massively, or relegated to NPC/Villain status. If you ever played D&D with a DM who was VERY stingy with magic items and spells then the game defaulted to low magic right out the gate. The early B and BX boxed sets moreso as Clerics didnt even start with spells and magic users started with all of 1 and it might be random.
TSR's Conan RPG seems tailor made for that. Never had a chance to look at it though so cannot say how well it does the job.
The Fantasy Trip: Another one where toning down the wizards is the key.
Tunnels & Trolls: ditto.
Tekimel/EPT: ditto too.
If you want ease of play with less footwork to deal with then Id personally go with BX D&D, followed by The Fantasy Trip, followed by Tunnels & Trolls.
3.5 D&D will work ok if you cut out all the caster classes, maybe keep the NPC Adept class and let PCs access it. PCs can do plenty of damage without magic gear. Of course the Challenge Ratings will be off for magic-less parties, if you want to keep CR you'd need to add around +1/3 to listed CR, so eg CR 3 > CR 4, CR 12 > CR 16, CR 15 > CR 20. It might be nearer +1/2, you'd need to get a feel for that in play, but starting at 1st level you shouldn't have major problems. Don't start this at 12th level. :)
3.5 monsters aren't usually unhittable without magic; they usually need special materials to bypass Damage Reduction, which you can make available.
Suitable PC classes for a low magic campaign:
Non-caster:
Fighter
Rogue
Barbarian
Monk
Optionally you could allow limited casters:
Paladin
Ranger
3e tends to work best when cut down anyway. Obviously published adventures would need adjusting, but I suspect this would actually work a lot better at high level than regular 3e does.
3e's regular healing rate of 1 hp/level/day should be plenty for a Conanesque setting. If you want extended dungeon delving you could either increase the healing rate, or have access to some magical healing through potions, fountains etc.
Of course RuneQuest 6. Also it has RuneQuest Classic Fantasy coming out. So you can play low fantasy, without classes. Have gritty, deadly (although fun) combat, and still use D&D magic items!
E.g., and from its creator Rod: "Treasure! This is why you kill those monsters in the first place. Vorpal swords, bags of holding, rings of protection, and +5 suits of plate"
Arcana Rising is notably lower magic than core D&D3 by far. Spells top out at level 6 and learning new ones requires weeks of research even from found scrolls, magic items are rare and more or less priceless, and casting pools are fairly limited.
Especially if you barred wizard/cleric PCs, or capped their natural spell learning, it'd do the trick.
BRP (also RQ2) or TFT should work fine
I don't get it.
I am not a huge fan of 3x dnd, but why can't it be low magic?
Just have items appear in the quantity and quality you desire.
I'd second Harn... as my first choice ...because gritty uber-detailed combat resolution.
The Original Redbook Chivalry & Sorcery ...just without the sorcery.
Fantasy Craft would be a more modern rules set that would work well for a low magic setting as well.
Quote from: Bill;751536I don't get it.
I am not a huge fan of 3x dnd, but why can't it be low magic?
Just have items appear in the quantity and quality you desire.
A lot of the numbers at the high-end are balanced with the expectation that PCs will be swimming in magical gear by the time they get to high level.
PCs without magical assistance will find higher HD/level challenges almost insurmountable without assistance from magical loot, and some creatures even at the low level can't be harmed at all without magical weapons.
Non-magical classes in particular will have a very rough row to hoe, and in a low magic setting, that's pretty much gonna be everyone in the party.
Not so fun.
Quote from: GameDaddy;751547I'd second Harn... as my first choice ...because gritty uber-detailed combat resolution.
And very playable due to a well designed character sheet (http://www.columbiagames.com/resources/4001/charactersheet.pdf) and combat card (http://www.columbiagames.com/resources/4001/harnmaster-combattables.pdf).
The biggest hurdle people have in understanding how it works is the utter lack of hit points. When you take injury, it lowers you skill and characteristics rolls. Also each injury has a "bad result" that you have to save again. Most of the time is just to see if you stumble, fumble, or get knocked out. But severe injuries can result in crippling injuries, amputations, and instant deaths.
Character creations is no more complex than Runequest and other d100. The only odd mechanic is figuring out skill bases. Skill bases are an average of three attributes. After that all your pre-game advancement is handled by multiples of the skill base. So if you were a town guardsmen you may start out with a broadsword skill equal to 4 times your skill base. If your skill base is 15 your broadsword skill will be 60%.
Quote from: J Arcane;751550A lot of the numbers at the high-end are balanced with the expectation that PCs will be swimming in magical gear by the time they get to high level.
So just don't use those monsters that require/make magic attacks... having a 'low magic' campaign would seem to also forgo a lot of overtly magical creatures...
Or just drop the requirement that they can only be hit by magic weapons.
Quote from: Simlasa;751599So just don't use those monsters that require/make magic attacks... having a 'low magic' campaign would seem to also forgo a lot of overtly magical creatures...
Or just drop the requirement that they can only be hit by magic weapons.
That only fixes the literal case of DR issues.
The math on higher level monsters is still such that a mundane-equipped character is not going to be victorious. They are going to die. repeatedly.
I've seen it in play. It's not pretty. By the time you strip out all the magic, and all the monsters you can't use anymore because there's no magic, there's not much left of D20. By the book, it just doesn't work.
So I guess you can't go by the DR ratings... and the stats are too complex to judge how deadly the creature is just by looking at them?
Except for playing in a Pathfinder game I don't know shit about D20.
Quote from: Simlasa;751609So I guess you can't go by the DR ratings... and the stats are too complex to judge how deadly the creature is just by looking at them?
Except for playing in a Pathfinder game I don't know shit about D20.
It's not difficult to re-rank Monster Challenge Rating. Monster stats are designed around the assumed progression of magic items, mostly magic weapons, armour, resistance items, and attribute boosters. Strip those out and it looks to me that you need to multiply listed regular CR by around 4/3, maybe by as much as 3/2.
Quote from: Thanos;751392I kinda like d100. Maybe something that doesn't have levels but skills increase? But I'm open to anything.
WFRP 2e?
Quote from: J Arcane;751550A lot of the numbers at the high-end are balanced with the expectation that PCs will be swimming in magical gear by the time they get to high level.
PCs without magical assistance will find higher HD/level challenges almost insurmountable without assistance from magical loot, and some creatures even at the low level can't be harmed at all without magical weapons.
Non-magical classes in particular will have a very rough row to hoe, and in a low magic setting, that's pretty much gonna be everyone in the party.
Not so fun.
Well, I don't use challenge ratings, so that's not an issue for me. A weak creature that you need a magic weapon to hurt seems fairly easy to deal with. The gm need not inundate the world with magic creatures in a low magic setting.
I have done low magic campaigns before I really don't see why it can't be done with 3X.
Quote from: Simlasa;751609So I guess you can't go by the DR ratings... and the stats are too complex to judge how deadly the creature is just by looking at them?
Except for playing in a Pathfinder game I don't know shit about D20.
It's a matter of how the numbers play out. Inflated hit point and damage numbers, reams of special powers, and so forth. There's an arms race at the core of by-the-book 3E, and going low-magic essentially deprives the PCs of really participating.
It's not some OSR battleground here, we're not talking about CR, it's beyond 'oh the players will just have to be clever,' or 'oh it's not balanced', it's 'the players will be dead.'
Quote from: J Arcane;751663It's a matter of how the numbers play out. Inflated hit point and damage numbers, reams of special powers, and so forth.
Couldn't you just use lower powered creatures?
If the rules are that hard to tweak, if you can't go off the reservation even a little bit without doing complex black-box math solutions... sheesh! Why would anyone choose to play that?
Our Pathfinder GM claims his setup is 'sandbox'... that the all the creatures are out there and it's up to us to figure out which ones we oughtta run away from. Is he just lying? Is that not really possible? If he denied us high powered magic equipment and we just stuck with killable targets... that would not be possible?
That all assumes: The Balance matters, the GM doesn't select the monsters present, all encounters are lethal combats, GM can't create or tailor their own items, there is nothing else going on and no other means to advancement, etc.
Perhaps it's past time to get rid of these assumptions and try gaming life without it?
I've played in a 3.5 campaign where magic items were rare, and we didn't have permanent magic items until we were about sixth level, and then started collecting a few (mainly ones we made ourselves or were given as special rewards from grateful monarchs. Don't get me started on what the ungrateful monarchs gave us...)
Advancement was slower. Spells became more important. Spells to enchant items were actually useful, and used up slots that would normally have gone to spells of mass destruction. But it worked out just fine, because low-level equipment kept the game lower
level for a longer time. The GM also only allowed approved feats/prestige classes/etc,
so you didn't have things like vows of poverty that substitute for magic items with personal powers.
So I'd say if you want to run a 3.5 game without magic items, just tell the players that you
want a low-level game, and do it. As long as their expectations are in line with yours, it should work out fine.
Magic, monsters, items I can handle. It's the hit point progression that I find problematic.
BTW the more I read about RuneQuest the more I like it. I may pick it up for myself.
Back on track with out magic weapons how do you handle high, 70 hp up for example, foes?
Also, don't know if I mentioned this, this will be a setting of my own creation and I'll just cherry pick monsters etc. from 3.5. Most monsters will be humanoid and will have class levels.
Quote from: Opaopajr;751681That all assumes: The Balance matters, the GM doesn't select the monsters present, all encounters are lethal combats, GM can't create or tailor their own items, there is nothing else going on and no other means to advancement, etc.
Perhaps it's past time to get rid of these assumptions and try gaming life without it?
No freaking shit.
While this may come as a profound shock to a couple of you, gamers managed perfectly well before the training wheels concept of "challenge ratings" was invented. GMs could gauge for themselves what their parties could steamroll, what would provide their parties with tough challenges, and what would turn their parties into mere speedbumps, without the editorial staff of gaming companies spoonfeeding them.
Since I don't believe that gamers suddenly turned stupid when 3X was released, I expect they could easily go back to figuring those things out for themselves.
Obviously a low- to zero-magic campaign would require adjustments. Players would have to ratchet down their expectations of how many enemies they could fight, of what skill levels and how often. They'd have to negotiate and exercise cunning more, and execute fewer frontal assaults. They'd have to expect that a grueling battle would enforce several days of recuperation, rather than several minutes of popping healing potions. I figure, however, that a party buying into a low-to-zero campaign's already anticipating it.
As far as XP goes? Equally simple. Surprisingly simple. The group likely has a consensus on how fast PCs progress. The GM adopts a GURPS-like XP system to handle that: say, 1-3 pts for good roleplaying, 1-2 pts for good combat, 1-2 points for success in a long mission, and lop off 1-3 pts for bad RP or disasters. Convert that concept to XP in whatever system you play, because any GM who isn't a rookie should have a good notion of how much XP per session constitutes a "proper" amount. None of that's dependent on the hit dice of the monsters one fights, or the amount of treasure one scrounges ...
nor should it be.Now of course there are gamers who can't handle ditching RAW and bringing in (oh the horror!) h-o-u-s-e r-u-l-e-s. Fair enough; it takes all kinds. But JArcane's handwringing is badly overdone. It's not that any of this Can't Be Done!!! It's that you need to go off the RAW reservation, as well as changing some assumptions, to do it. I expect the OP's already wrapped his head around that.
Quote from: Thanos;751709Back on track with out magic weapons how do you handle high, 70 hp up for example, foes?
I expect the answer would be somewhere between "Not through frontal assault, anyway" or "You don't."
It's like how I handle dragons, which is to make them near-to-invincible engines of terrible destruction that no sane person will willingly engage. Exactly three dragons have been killed in the 36 year history of my campaign.
The fellow who killed the first one became an instant legend, the deed starting him on the path of a Conanesque career.
The lady who killed the second one (throwing a dagger into its eye because she didn't have any other way to so much as scratch its scales, so she reasoned ... then rolled a 3 on 3d6 for a critical hit, then rolled
another 3 on the crit for an instant kill) figured that no one would ever believe her -- with some justification -- and swore the party to secrecy.
The lady who killed the third one, just a couple years ago, was the highest point-total character in the campaign's history, is by about two-fold the most powerful PC wizard ever, and whacked the dragon in the head with a maximum strength
Ice Sphere. From behind. From above. With her being invisible. With the dragon heavily distracted in engaging ground targets. In like fashion, she really doesn't want to be called "Dragonslayer," and figures it'd attract more unwelcome hotshots than she wants to deal with.
Other than those three occasions, my parties have handled dragons prudently, on the rare times they've been encountered. To wit: bribe them with a herd of cattle, talk very politely and respectfully, or run like hell and hope the dragon didn't notice them.
That's how your group handles foes over a certain power level.
Quote from: Thanos;751709Back on track with out magic weapons how do you handle high, 70 hp up for example, foes?
Also, don't know if I mentioned this, this will be a setting of my own creation and I'll just cherry pick monsters etc. from 3.5. Most monsters will be humanoid and will have class levels.
The PCs have to live that long to get those high HP. And in a low magic setting that is going to be tricky. Moreso if magical healing is few to none.
If the players get so high in levels eventually then they should be facing appropriately skilled foes. It balances out in the end. Though I cannot personally say how 3e works for that.
Quote from: Thanos;751709Back on track with out magic weapons how do you handle high, 70 hp up for example, foes?
Also, don't know if I mentioned this, this will be a setting of my own creation and I'll just cherry pick monsters etc. from 3.5. Most monsters will be humanoid and will have class levels.
Trebuchets. And ballista. Oh, and lots of arrows. Seriously.
That and you already answered it partially in your next paragraph, "I'll just cherry pick monsters, etc from 3.5." Eventually those monsters will either be such a fat target when marching up against PC militaries (assuming name level campaigning), or will get the drop and PCs will have to flee and adjust their tactics.
You'll be surprised how ingenious and dangerous a few determined minds can be, no matter how fragile. Besides, wouldn't it warm the cockles of your heart to see your players turn into PC versions of Tucker's Kobolds? Oh why would you ever want to wave that opportunity to be devious away?
;)
Quote from: Omega;751918The PCs have to live that long to get those high HP. And in a low magic setting that is going to be tricky. Moreso if magical healing is few to none.
If the players get so high in levels eventually then they should be facing appropriately skilled foes. It balances out in the end. Though I cannot personally say how 3e works for that.
I don't see why characters would have trouble living in a low magic setting.
Many of us have run campaigns with low magic, so the problem, if any, might be playstyle.
Is 70hp supposed to be a lot in 3.5? Have you seen how much damage 2-handed power attack can do?
I had a 4th level Fighter in a low-magic 3.5e campaign. With mundane greatsword using full power attack he did 2d6 + 6 (STR 18, 2-handed) +8 (full PA) +2 (specialised) = 2d6+ 16, average 23 damage per hit, x2 on a crit.
It gets a lot worse at higher level.
Personally, in a low- to zero-magic game, I wouldn't be bothering with giant ubercreatures. That's not what'd provide a true threat to a party. It's a company of perfectly mundane, human infantry, a third of them sword-and-board, a third of them halbardiers, and the rest archers, wearing Baron von Evyl's livery, charging at them and screaming "No quarter!!!"
Quote from: S'mon;751973Is 70hp supposed to be a lot in 3.5? Have you seen how much damage 2-handed power attack can do?
I had a 4th level Fighter in a low-magic 3.5e campaign. With mundane greatsword using full power attack he did 2d6 + 6 (STR 18, 2-handed) +8 (full PA) +2 (specialised) = 2d6+ 16, average 23 damage per hit, x2 on a crit.
It gets a lot worse at higher level.
70hp is nothing in 3x. Basically if played right Ravenswing is spot on.
Quote from: Marleycat;75208470hp is nothing in 3x.
Agreed - whether that's a 70hp 7th level Fighter, or a smallish dragon.
I have been dithering about whether or not Harnmaster will be as good in play as it appears to be. The combat card looks easy to use but character generation seems to exceptionally complicated.
But it is on my bucket list to try out
WFRP 2e would be viable if you just disallow magic-users. Or change the magic system a bit.
Yes, you could do the same with D&D; get rid of all the overtly combat-related spells for example. But WFRP would probably take less work.
Quote from: Votan;752308I have been dithering about whether or not Harnmaster will be as good in play as it appears to be. The combat card looks easy to use but character generation seems to exceptionally complicated.
One thing you might try, then, is the download section of lythia.com, which has an immense amount of free stuff for Harn. Among them are several packs of NPCs, full sheets included, either intended for accompanying adventure packs or as standalone NPCs. (One cute one is a thinly-disguised copy of the crew of Joss Whedon's
Firefly series, revamped to being the crew of a merchantman. Might want to start there.
Fantasy Hero (part of the HERO System, most famous for Champions) can handle low magic quite easily.
Fantasy Hero 5e (http://rpggeek.com/rpgitem/49221/fantasy-hero) and 6e (http://rpggeek.com/rpgitem/87221/fantasy-hero-hero-system-6) are quite good but require that you also have the core 5e (http://rpggeek.com/rpgitem/54692/hero-system-fifth-edition-revised) or 6e1 (http://rpggeek.com/rpgitem/54678/hero-system-sixth-edition-volume-1-character-creat) & 6e2 (http://rpggeek.com/rpgitem/54679/hero-system-sixth-edition-volume-2-combat-adventu) Hero System Rules to play the game.
The Valdorian Age (http://rpggeek.com/rpgitem/49225/the-valdorian-age) is a 5e Fantasy Hero setting for low magic sword & sorcery. There is currently a Kickstarter for a new Fantasy Hero Complete (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/herogames/fantasy-hero-complete) that just hit funding levels with a few days to go. It will be an all-in-one book that should follow the same basic format as Champions Complete (http://rpggeek.com/rpgitem/133432/champions-complete) except for running a fantasy campaign instead of supers.
re: Harn
Harn to HERO conversions have been done by regulars of the herogames forums. I am not familiar with Harn but based on the comments up thread I imagine it was to simplify combat (one of the few times I've ever referred to HERO as simple).
Quote from: Ravenswing;752596One thing you might try, then, is the download section of lythia.com, which has an immense amount of free stuff for Harn. Among them are several packs of NPCs, full sheets included, either intended for accompanying adventure packs or as standalone NPCs. (One cute one is a thinly-disguised copy of the crew of Joss Whedon's Firefly series, revamped to being the crew of a merchantman. Might want to start there.
Thanks for the tip
Just wanted to add my voice to those who are suggesting RuneQuest 6. I just introduced a new group to it at the weekend and it went really well. We're playing stranded pirates on the Monster Island setting for a Swords & Sorcery "anthology" of games (linked one-shot adventures that characters can drop in and out of in a sandboxy setting). The game really went swimmingly, with character generation lots of fun - we handled it by discussing character concepts in advance and then me rolling up what the players wanted, as we just wanted to wade right in and play.
My only concern before about RQ6, having run it a few times now, was that the magic system and combat system might be a little complicated. Turns out that it's not really an issue; we've added just enough magic to make things fun, but still in a definitely low-magic setting. But any character can have access to a couple of charms, spells, or (in the case of one character) "almost preternatural abilities", using basic Folk Magic. This is ridiculously easy to run. Then just give each character who wants them a couple of spells, along with interesting roleplaying reasons for having them (we have one Pirate-Voodoo-Spirit-Animist, and one Acolyte of the Shark Cult of Ravashanoor!). But RQ works equally well with no magic at all. It's very modular, very scaleable.
The combat system also can be as complicated as you like, but even when you add in all the bells and whistles, especially the Combat Special Effects (Disarm, Trip, Stun, Choose Location etc), it actually runs really smoothly, even with people who've never played it before, and makes for pulse-pounding and tactical combat....
Seriously, I don't think you can go wrong with it, and I'm committed to converting as many players as possible from my local RPG group, who are mostly PF/D&D 3.5 die-hards ... (luckily some of them also play some Cthulhu, so they're quite familiar with d100 system. Still, it's very very easy to learn. Much easier, I fancy, than D&D). The skill-points advancement system is likewise very easy to pick up, and the fact that hit-points NEVER increase means that, like said upthread, there is no such thing as a non-scary combat, and a bunch of guardsmen with halberds or sword and shield is very threatening indeed. An alleyway encounter with some cultists of Zululun the Unforgetting left one character bleeding copiously and another with a nasty wound to the leg and a slash across the face that will leave a big scar. And that's just their first encounter! But they staved off death with judicious use of Luck Points, so lethality is not quite so bad as it was in the RQ2-3 days ....
tl ; dnr : buy RuneQuest 6. It's superb.
If you need to sell PF fans, then P6 for Pathfinder is perfect for your needs. In P6, a +1 sword is a big deal.
http://p6codex.com/
Quote from: Rincewind1;751391Don't use D&D.
I say this every day to no avail.
3.5 is particularly a bad choice for this sort of thing, but to suggest that you shouldn't use D&D at all is silly.
Look at Lamentations of the Flame Princess; it's very much "low magic". A "rare magic items" game would work just fine there; and there aren't even some of the major and most powerful spells around (no fireball, lightning bolt, or raise dead, to give three examples).
Quote from: RPGPundit;7817113.5 is particularly a bad choice for this sort of thing, but to suggest that you shouldn't use D&D at all is silly.
Look at Lamentations of the Flame Princess; it's very much "low magic". A "rare magic items" game would work just fine there; and there aren't even some of the major and most powerful spells around (no fireball, lightning bolt, or raise dead, to give three examples).
Verily.
BX to AD&D and even 2nd can very easily handle low magic settings or gameplay.
As I noted in an older thread here I believe. I played in at least one campaign where we were all fighters, thieves, and rangers minus the ranger magic. Magic was vastly toned down to the point I think we met all of one wizard at the end. Along the way we did meet a few druids.
E6 modified 3.5e would work fine, just don't use casters (or use, say, modified no-magic versions of rangers and whatnot)
E6:
Max level is 6, get another feat every 5000 further xp. Done.
The advantage is that, by level 6, a lot of the magic dependencies that creatures are designed to face haven't really shown up.
I'd also suggest moving to a quest/adventure XP reward system to discourage the dangerous 'get in a lot of fights' 3.5e encourages.
Plenty of reasons not to use D&D (= "I think the system blows"), but this isn't one. I don't think there's a single RPG system out there that can't handle zero- to low-magic at all. You just need to (a) lower expectations all around for what the party can handle; (b) adjust the XP system to not require combating power levels of opposition the party can't handle; and (c) write adventures where wits and cleverness, instead of widgets, are used to solve problems.
I've been asked on a number of occasions how parties in my campaign can possibly survive without ready access to powerful healing magics (which they usually don't have) or D&D-ish "thief" abilities (which they often don't have). The answer's pretty basic: "I don't write scenarios requiring parties to punch through hordes of enemies, and I don't write scenarios which make or break on the parties' abilities to pick a lock or disarm a trap."
Quote from: Thanos;751383I have an idea for a low magic campaign. Ideally I'd like to use 3.5 as all my group have it already and it would make things easier. How every I'm finding the leveling system/hit points are making none magical weapons a problem. So... I'm looking for a way around that, either with a new rules set or (preferred) some modified system for 3.5.
The idea here is finding a +1/+1 weapon should be a big deal. Something along the lines of only the mightiest heroes have them.
Well, a literal +1 obviously won't be a big deal unless it's actually big relative to the probabiities involved. So instead you could just set it up so that a magic sword gets whatever seems a more satisfying factor.
Likewise, it's dead simple to double the damage dice for weapons, or give figures a level bonus independent of equipment, to speed up fights.
Presumably one reason you chose a version of D&D in the first place is that you like the character survivability in a high-combat campaign the hit point system provides.
I can't believe nobody has mentioned Midnight (http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite_sec.asp?eidm=226&esem=2).
It's d20, it's 3.5, and it's low magic as hell, with rare but awesome magic items that feel extremely special.
It also has good rules for herbalism and lucky charms to address the lack of the usual potions and such.
Yes, Midnight was the lowest-magic 3.x setting/rules I can think of.
The obscure RPG Carmine is no magic, except for some alchemy, which I think is more super-chemistry-like than magical. I think it's basically D20/OGL mechanically.
Quote from: RPGPundit;784154Yes, Midnight was the lowest-magic 3.x setting/rules I can think of.
Iron Heroes without the Arcanist (which is explicitly called out as being there mostly so you can have Evil Sorcerors as antagonists)?
I always though d20 Past would make a fairy nice low-level magic game for fantasy.
There's still Wizards and Clerics, but they're now 10-level Prestige Classes (meaning you have to be 6th-8th level before you cast your first 1st-level spell!). It caps magic at 5th-level, so bringing back the dead is a pretty epic achievement (earliest at 15th-level, on a 20-level capped system).
EDIT: I once tried to see what it would take to make 3.X D&D "magic lite", and found the effort incredibly frustrating. More classes have spellcasting (to one degree or another) than not, and trying to see how it would affect the "magic item economy" was particularly irritating (trying to collect which monsters in MM & MM2 have high-level spellcasting ability).
It was far easier to make a new game, using the d20 mechanics, than try to re-skin D&D into something it ain't.
Quote from: daniel_ream;784472Iron Heroes without the Arcanist (which is explicitly called out as being there mostly so you can have Evil Sorcerors as antagonists)?
Hmm, yeah, good point.