Has anyone ever actually run Promethean or Wraith? I have a hard time believing most groups would go for either one even with extensive house-ruling and doing end runs around their most inconvenient elements.
Wraith sure did straight up no alterations. Pretty weird and takes the right sort of group to play.
So far have not gotten to actually play it. Just GM.
I ran Wraith back in college (~15 years ago). The campaign lasted about 2 sessions because it got really dreary, depressing and boring. My group went back to our more light-hearted WFRP 1e campaign. Yeah, you read that right.
I ran a couple of sessions of Wraith in college, back when it first came out. No real problems or issues with it, but it never really clicked with our group.
I ran promethean on a chat site for a year and a half. Most of the time it was a struggle to get anyone to play. I also got my first bitter taste of ST, Admin, and site owner bullshit that plagues World of Darkness sites. As you can see I am slowly recovering in skype and with better games with better fan bases.
I ran a solid 2 sessions of Promethean as a sort of "The Odyssey by way of hobos" with a liberal dosage of Silent Hill. Based on my experience, I can't imagine running a campaign to completion.
I ran both, my groups had fun with both games. Wraith is probably my favorite of the Cwod games.
I was in a short lived Wraith game. We found that the game was one that you had to have JUST the right group for, as you need to be able to trust your fellow players to push the right buttons and not push the wrong buttons.
But that wasn't the problem we ran into. The problem we ran into was that the GM was a hemophiliac, and we were playing in the ICU while he was in for treatment. Any time Specters showed up, there was a code blue called down the hall. That was the only time code blues were called. Correlation or causation, it was too creepy an occurrence for us, so we stopped playing, and never quite started back up.
Quote from: Orphan81;911649I ran both, my groups had fun with both games. Wraith is probably my favorite of the Cwod games.
Same. Theres something really quirky about the Wraith setting and tone.
Quote from: remial;911670But that wasn't the problem we ran into. The problem we ran into was that the GM was a hemophiliac, and we were playing in the ICU while he was in for treatment. Any time Specters showed up, there was a code blue called down the hall. That was the only time code blues were called. Correlation or causation, it was too creepy an occurrence for us, so we stopped playing, and never quite started back up.
Sounds legit
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;911627Has anyone ever actually run Promethean or Wraith? I have a hard time believing most groups would go for either one even with extensive house-ruling and doing end runs around their most inconvenient elements.
I ran a very brief Wraith game. It took two sessions to fall apart. The Shadow mechanic pretty much doomed it from the start. The super grimdark tone didn't help.
The thing about Wraith is, it's one of the coolest "fantasy" settings. The Underworld is huge, and full of interesting and awesome stuff. Most of my campaigns were "DoomSlayer" based ones. Where the characters were Doomslayers, members of the Legions who went into the Labyrinth to fight Spectres and keep local citadels and haunts safe.
Had a lot of fun with Wraith back when it first came out (1994! Twenty two years ago. Jesus Christ.). Having imaginative players who really got into playing fucked-up, damaged, doomed characters was a big plus.
I've ran short campaigns with Wraith and found it worked best with precisely three players. You get a feel of a real 'Circle' that way, while the Shadow-play is entirely manageable. Go beyond that in numbers, then you end up having to dilute the Shadow-play, which is OK but not really as distinct in it's gameplay. I feel that they could have simplified the general engine beyond this, although it's not that big a deal. The main thing I like about the Storyteller system is that you do tend to get well rounded characters from the chargen process, and the rich, gothic alienness of the setting provides a lot of interesting things that the characters can explore. Good for plot hooks, I found. The other advantage is that, unlike the other Storytelling games, it's not as driven by group affiliation (Clans, Tribes, etc). While there are Guilds, the tone of the game is much more individual driven - and this can make for more personalised tales. The Life/Death/Regret of each character can easily be played out as the basis of each chronicle.
I've not played Promethean, although I've not really played much of the Chronicles of Darkness settings truth be told (played a bit of Hunter, which was definitely an improvement on the OWoD Hunter). Out of all the titles, however, it was the one I found most interesting to read and as a concept.
I haven't run Wraith but played in a short but pretty interesting game for awhile. It didn't last much after the prelude stage before it ended though but not due to any problems with the game or setting just time conflicts. I've heard of a few others campaigns over the years. The odd things is that, despite the super grim setting many people see the other possibilities in the Underworld as the stand out features and apparently its easy to focus on them. I don't think Wraith was popular enough to get the "You're doing it wrong/No Superheroes with Fangs/Fur/Etc" treatment that happened other WW games so more folks were probably playing it how they found it fun.
As a point of discussion, I don't see Wraith as being a 'grim dark' setting at all. Gothic and existential, yes, but any setting that depicts any form of transcendence after death is a positive, hopeful outlook in my book. As they say in the tagline, it's not about Death but what comes after. Moreover, I find the whole experience to be both cathartic and more allegorical towards making the most out of life before you pass away to Oblivion.
Quote from: TrippyHippy;911709As a point of discussion, I don't see Wraith as being a 'grim dark' setting at all. Gothic and existential, yes, but any setting that depicts any form of transcendence after death is a positive, hopeful outlook in my book. As they say in the tagline, it's not about Death but what comes after. Moreover, I find the whole experience to be both cathartic and more allegorical towards making the most out of life before you pass away to Oblivion.
ok, this forces me into a short story. (sorry)
So, I was the only one in the group that had a copy of the Shadow Player's Guide, a book full of fun advice on how to drive the primary aspect of another player into madness and depression. (fun subject, right?)
One of the suggestions was for the Shadow to offer assistance on various tasks, simple little things, "need to get past a guard? here have an extra die for your stealth check" "Trying to convince the head of your guild to teach you a new ability? have 2 dice." Get the player used to getting those bonus dice. And then when he REALLY needs them, don't help. "being attacked by Specters? Sucks to be you."
I didn't do that. I took it one step further. the Shadow I ran had this philosophy, "Look no one we know has ever come back from either Oblivion OR Transcendence, so for all I know they are the same thing, and either way we return to nothingness. So we can do this the easy way, where I help you get over all your baggage, or the hard way where I fight you tooth and nail. I'm lazy, so I'm going to help you."
and I did. All the time. I'd talk to Specters and tell them to pester someone else, I'd offer assistance, I would talk to other Shadows to get information for my primary, help him see to it his love ones got closure, all that stuff.
The primary, however, never saw it that way. He _knew_ that he had a dark half. Everyone does, and that dark half is ALWAYS trying to kill you or get you to do evil things. So obviously whatever his Shadow was trying to get him to do was what he shouldn't do.
Which is how I drove him into Harrowing himself half way into the second session.
Quote from: Orphan81;911685The thing about Wraith is, it's one of the coolest "fantasy" settings. The Underworld is huge, and full of interesting and awesome stuff. Most of my campaigns were "DoomSlayer" based ones. Where the characters were Doomslayers, members of the Legions who went into the Labyrinth to fight Spectres and keep local citadels and haunts safe.
Pseudoephedrine used to run an OD&D/S&W game set in an afterlife called Necrocarcerus whichwas a lot like Wraith's setting, plus gonzo D&D stuff e.g. oozes possessed varying degrees of sentience and more or less played the role of Spectres.
Quote from: Snowman0147I ran promethean on a chat site for a year and a half. Most of the time it was a struggle to get anyone to play. I also got my first bitter taste of ST, Admin, and site owner bullshit that plagues World of Darkness sites. As you can see I am slowly recovering in skype and with better games with better fan bases.
Since promethean is not getting as much discussion here, mind if I ask you what worked and didn't work about the game (not the fan base)?
Quote from: remial;911737I didn't do that. I took it one step further. the Shadow I ran had this philosophy, "Look no one we know has ever come back from either Oblivion OR Transcendence, so for all I know they are the same thing, and either way we return to nothingness. So we can do this the easy way, where I help you get over all your baggage, or the hard way where I fight you tooth and nail. I'm lazy, so I'm going to help you."
and I did. All the time. I'd talk to Specters and tell them to pester someone else, I'd offer assistance, I would talk to other Shadows to get information for my primary, help him see to it his love ones got closure, all that stuff.
The primary, however, never saw it that way. He _knew_ that he had a dark half. Everyone does, and that dark half is ALWAYS trying to kill you or get you to do evil things. So obviously whatever his Shadow was trying to get him to do was what he shouldn't do.
Which is how I drove him into Harrowing himself half way into the second session.
Perfect.
There are some great supplements for Wraith, but the core book did a terrible job of explaining the setting, what you were supposed to do and what kinds of characters to make. My group attempted to play it right after it came out, but never quite got through character generation. There were just too many questions. Were the players newly dead? Where they are risk of being grabbed by the Legion? How did Guilds work?
By the time some of the cool supplements came along and made the game coherent, everyone had moved on. I saw the game's potential, but didn't feel like trying to coax people back to it when there were plenty of other games that weren't already damaged goods in their eyes.
Wraith was still better than the unfocused bag of crap that Changeling was. That's a contender for worst game ever put out by a major publisher.
If you do it on chat with multiple people you need to house rule disquiet. The site owner refuses to let me and it made the chat suffer. Mainly anyone who isn't a promethean got shit tons of penalties. It really sucked for werewolves as the disquiet made death rage more likely to happen and wasteland fucks up their territory.
Hunter the Vigil core book had the best solution. Non promethean rolls willpower - promethean's azoth. Success means the non promethean acts normal. Failure means the promethean gets treated like shit by the non promethean. That way disquiet stays in theme and yet the non promethean isn't fuck over with so many penalties that the character is crippled.
I would keep wasteland smaller. Mile radius at worst in fact. That way you don't get a dozen werewolf packs wanting to kill you. You want tension, but not a full scale war. Less headaches down the road. Last allow mobile homes, or houses by the junkyard.
What's Disquiet?
Quote from: Nexus;911921What's Disquiet?
Prometheans inspire murderous torch-and-pitchfork rage mobs merely by dint of being around people, because they're unnatural or something.
Quote from: The Butcher;911941Prometheans inspire murderous torch-and-pitchfork rage mobs merely by dint of being around people, because they're unnatural or something.
Yeah thats the main problem with that game. I always thought it was unplayable for a group and could only be solo played unless house-ruled. Thats also the reason way it isnt played much.
Quote from: Snowman0147;911643I ran promethean on a chat site for a year and a half. Most of the time it was a struggle to get anyone to play. I also got my first bitter taste of ST, Admin, and site owner bullshit that plagues World of Darkness sites. As you can see I am slowly recovering in skype and with better games with better fan bases.
Awwh, you poor bastard. You may be grouchy but at least you're passionate about WOD. That's one of the things I hate most about the online WOD community, so many fucking human trainwrecks. Honestly wish I could have you 'round to the club so you can play with guys and gals who aren't going to leave you soured on the series.
Quote from: Necrozius;911632I ran Wraith back in college (~15 years ago). The campaign lasted about 2 sessions because it got really dreary, depressing and boring. My group went back to our more light-hearted WFRP 1e campaign. Yeah, you read that right.
Coldly aborting babies because of chaos taint and then burning the mother on a pyre as a witch. Fuck yeah, that's Warhammer bitch. Jesus weeps for us all...
Quote from: Azraele;911645I ran a solid 2 sessions of Promethean as a sort of "The Odyssey by way of hobos" with a liberal dosage of Silent Hill. Based on my experience, I can't imagine running a campaign to completion.
I campeted one!
Swearz.
Two, actually. First one died in hellfire. The second had the PCs fighting off a flock of Pandorans in a speeding car down a country road and somehow not dying. They met up with a Tier Two faction and found out the reason the region hadn't turned into a crater was because the big guy had some even bigger poor bastard with Azoth 6 chained in the basement of the faction's bunker who was essentially absorbing all the disquiet into him and "breathing" it out slowly so it could be reasonably countered.
It was pretty fucked.
Quote from: Orphan81;911649I ran both, my groups had fun with both games. Wraith is probably my favorite of the Cwod games.
Fucking A.
Quote from: remial;911670I was in a short lived Wraith game. We found that the game was one that you had to have JUST the right group for, as you need to be able to trust your fellow players to push the right buttons and not push the wrong buttons.
But that wasn't the problem we ran into. The problem we ran into was that the GM was a hemophiliac, and we were playing in the ICU while he was in for treatment. Any time Specters showed up, there was a code blue called down the hall. That was the only time code blues were called. Correlation or causation, it was too creepy an occurrence for us, so we stopped playing, and never quite started back up.
Sounds legit.
Quote from: yosemitemike;911681I ran a very brief Wraith game. It took two sessions to fall apart. The Shadow mechanic pretty much doomed it from the start. The super grimdark tone didn't help.
Wraith isn't even grimdark. Its just genuinely dark. Like nihilism and existentialism and all that gud' shit.
Makes it all the more an impressive feat.
But I'll stick with Geist. Much more empowering and brutal and adventure-y.
Quote from: TrippyHippy;911709As a point of discussion, I don't see Wraith as being a 'grim dark' setting at all. Gothic and existential, yes, but any setting that depicts any form of transcendence after death is a positive, hopeful outlook in my book. As they say in the tagline, it's not about Death but what comes after. Moreover, I find the whole experience to be both cathartic and more allegorical towards making the most out of life before you pass away to Oblivion.
Beautiful.
Quote from: Snowman0147;911919If you do it on chat with multiple people you need to house rule disquiet. The site owner refuses to let me and it made the chat suffer. Mainly anyone who isn't a promethean got shit tons of penalties. It really sucked for werewolves as the disquiet made death rage more likely to happen and wasteland fucks up their territory.
Hunter the Vigil core book had the best solution. Non promethean rolls willpower - promethean's azoth. Success means the non promethean acts normal. Failure means the promethean gets treated like shit by the non promethean. That way disquiet stays in theme and yet the non promethean isn't fuck over with so many penalties that the character is crippled.
I would keep wasteland smaller. Mile radius at worst in fact. That way you don't get a dozen werewolf packs wanting to kill you. You want tension, but not a full scale war. Less headaches down the road. Last allow mobile homes, or houses by the junkyard.
What a shithead.
I totally wouldn't houserule it though. Just do what I did above and essentially nullify it within a certain zone but through very inhumane means.
Quote from: jan paparazzi;911949Yeah thats the main problem with that game. I always thought it was unplayable for a group and could only be solo played unless house-ruled. Thats also the reason way it isnt played much.
I GM'd it for 11 at the same time. It worked. Never went any lower than 7, avg 9 during its run.
But then that's how I roll. Hah hah.
Quote from: remial;911670I was in a short lived Wraith game. We found that the game was one that you had to have JUST the right group for, as you need to be able to trust your fellow players to push the right buttons and not push the wrong buttons.
But that wasn't the problem we ran into. The problem we ran into was that the GM was a hemophiliac, and we were playing in the ICU while he was in for treatment. Any time Specters showed up, there was a code blue called down the hall. That was the only time code blues were called. Correlation or causation, it was too creepy an occurrence for us, so we stopped playing, and never quite started back up.
Holy crap, I might just stop gaming after that! Creepy!
Quote from: Snowman0147;911919If you do it on chat with multiple people you need to house rule disquiet. The site owner refuses to let me and it made the chat suffer. Mainly anyone who isn't a promethean got shit tons of penalties. It really sucked for werewolves as the disquiet made death rage more likely to happen and wasteland fucks up their territory.
Hunter the Vigil core book had the best solution. Non promethean rolls willpower - promethean's azoth. Success means the non promethean acts normal. Failure means the promethean gets treated like shit by the non promethean. That way disquiet stays in theme and yet the non promethean isn't fuck over with so many penalties that the character is crippled.
I would keep wasteland smaller. Mile radius at worst in fact. That way you don't get a dozen werewolf packs wanting to kill you. You want tension, but not a full scale war. Less headaches down the road. Last allow mobile homes, or houses by the junkyard.
Isn't, like, the first unofficial rule of running WoD to never, ever run mixed supernatural campaigns?
Quote from: PrometheanVigilTwo, actually. First one died in hellfire. The second had the PCs fighting off a flock of Pandorans in a speeding car down a country road and somehow not dying. They met up with a Tier Two faction and found out the reason the region hadn't turned into a crater was because the big guy had some even bigger poor bastard with Azoth 6 chained in the basement of the faction's bunker who was essentially absorbing all the disquiet into him and "breathing" it out slowly so it could be reasonably countered.
I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on how the game works in actual play. Is it better than it sounds on paper?
A group I was with spent one session making Wraith characters... And then the next session our problem player bombed the game for us and we never played it again.
Promethean is in New World of Darkness which is now called Chronicles of Darkness. The major improvement is that you can mix other monster types. Just mind the power gaps in Mage and Geist.
Quote from: Snowman0147;912034The major improvement is that you can mix other monster types.
From what I've read of nWoD, I still think mixing monsters hampers and dilutes more than it adds or enhances.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;912037From what I've read of nWoD, I still think mixing monsters hampers and dilutes more than it adds or enhances.
Indeed. Thematically it doesn't make much sense. Each game has it's own struggles and enemies.
Btw, has anyone read the Dark Era's book? I bet it's a big tome with a humongous amount of background info and a shitload of story seeds, which I never know what to do with it. Well, that's the reason I don't play wod anymore, despite liking a lot of the ideas it brings to the table.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;911627Has anyone ever actually run Promethean or Wraith? I have a hard time believing most groups would go for either one even with extensive house-ruling and doing end runs around their most inconvenient elements.
I ran Wraith: The Oblivion with no problems whatsoever. It was a fun little game. Dont now anything about the nwod iteration.
I read Promethean. I cant imagine why it'd be harder to run than anything else, as long as the players understand the premise from the outset. But thats generally the case for any game.
Promethean just got a second edition. It is on Drive Thru RPG and people are complaining of its lack of quality.
Quote from: Snowman0147;912222Promethean just got a second edition. It is on Drive Thru RPG and people are complaining of its lack of quality.
*looks at reviews*
Wow, the book uses those awful gender neutral pronouns (zhe, zir, zhey) in it. People are actually going forward and compromising their professional general audience work with this stuff. I'm reminded of those true believers who lost money making Esperanto films.
Does anyone know if the only problems with the 2nd edition are a few typos and the cringey virtue signalling?
Quote from: TristramEvans;912074I read Promethean. I cant imagine why it'd be harder to run than anything else, as long as the players understand the premise from the outset. But thats generally the case for any game.
You can't imagine how a game where every character creates a blighted wasteland for miles around themselves and turns every hand against them wouldn't be a problem to run so long as the players get the premise?
Sure, and a game where you play the victim in a locked room murder mystery isn't hard to run if the player 'gets' the premise too. Why not? I mean... if the only things your players like to do is beat off hordes of pitchfork and torch mobs in teh middle of a post apocalyptic wasteland (cleveland), then sure... promethean is easy to run as written! Or if they like sitting in the middle of antarctica, alone, bemoaning their fate in poetic verse while wearing way too much eyeliner... easy!
Quote from: Spike;912252You can't imagine how a game where every character creates a blighted wasteland for miles around themselves and turns every hand against them wouldn't be a problem to run so long as the players get the premise?
Doesn't it take a while to set in though? I read Promethean a while back but don't recall the specifics. It seemed like Disquiet encouraged a nomadic campaign of short acqaintances... kind of like the old Incredible Hulk TV show.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;912228*looks at reviews*
Wow, the book uses those awful gender neutral pronouns (zhe, zir, zhey) in it. People are actually going forward and compromising their professional general audience work with this stuff. I'm reminded of those true believers who lost money making Esperanto films.
Does anyone know if the only problems with the 2nd edition are a few typos and the cringey virtue signalling?
I was referring to the typos and poor downloads that don't work. Still what you said is pretty valid.
Quote from: SimlasaDoesn't it take a while to set in though? I read Promethean a while back but don't recall the specifics. It seemed like Disquiet encouraged a nomadic campaign of short acqaintances... kind of like the old Incredible Hulk TV show.
Disquiet can take a while or immediately turn people against you. There are many rolls and modifiers involved. The wasteland effect is more predictable and gradual, so if you don't ever linger more than a few days anywhere it doesn't matter. The game does everything it can to keep you on the move, so yes, the Hulk comparison is apt.
Quote from: Snowman0147;912303I was referring to the typos and poor downloads that don't work. Still what you said is pretty valid.
Have you looked at the 2nd edition personally? Do you know what they've changed?
Quote from: Spike;912252You can't imagine how a game where every character creates a blighted wasteland for miles around themselves and turns every hand against them wouldn't be a problem to run so long as the players get the premise?
No, I really don't. The blighted wasteland happens if the characters try to settle in one spot. The"every hand against them" is the aggression of angry mobs and ostracisation from humanity. Neither of which preclude many entertaining games if thats a premise someone is interested in.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;912304Have you looked at the 2nd edition personally? Do you know what they've changed?
I am broke so I don't know what is in the book other than what people are already saying which is why I am not making a judgment call on it. I am just saying what people had said in that drive thru page.
Quote from: TristramEvans;912305No, I really don't. The blighted wasteland happens if the characters try to settle in one spot. The"every hand against them" is the aggression of angry mobs and ostracisation from humanity. Neither of which preclude many entertaining games if thats a premise someone is interested in.
Stop gladhanding your players, then. There is a massage parlour down the street.
Seriously though: You have a game where the players can't have a base of operations (which even dungeon delving nameless murderhobos seem to like setting up), and they can't interact with anyone other than eachother, session after session, and you don't see how that limits your game play and might be a problem for groups?
No stable area to play in, the GM and the players have to constantly work out new geography. No friendly NPCs, or even neutral NPCs really. No colorful cast of characters, just surly people trying to pitchfork them at every turn, or fellow monsters trying to harvest their alchemical souls for power?
"Wadda we doin' tonight, brain?"
"Same thing we do every night, we drive our stolen cars a hundred miles, set up a camp int eh middle of nowhere adn wait for either the blight to set in, or hte locals to know we're there and run us off. Then we do it again next session. Hopefully the 'not-angels' don't show up in mid session to steal our souls...again"
"Oooh... sounds like fun. Can't wait!"
All kidding aside, the rules literally (Because they are written down, get it?) are designed to prevent stability of geography and a near total absence of friendly NPCs. That doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room for interesting game play. You almost HAVE to play as murderhobos... only interested in who is trying to kill you this time so you know the best way to kill them back before you move on to the next fight. Only, you know, all depressing and shit about it.
Since I'm pretty sure the designers weren't doing, deliberately, an inverse set up* of the very worst (or best, whatever) style of D&D play, then I can say they actually failed to design the game they set out to make.
* D&D murderhobos kill everyone because they have no character, and people are just walking bags of loot and XP. Promethean Murderhobos kill everyone because they have TOO MUCH character, and people view them as walking bags of loot and XP.... I mean, pretentious twats and sources of alchemical fire.
Quote from: Spike;912335Stop gladhanding your players, then. There is a massage parlour down the street.
I have no idea what you're on about.
QuoteSeriously though: You have a game where the players can't have a base of operations (which even dungeon delving nameless murderhobos seem to like setting up),
Yes, that is the premise. You seem to be operating from a set of assumptions base on the very specific people you've played with? I've never had "base of operations" be a priority for any group of players that I can recall outside of a superhero game. Promethean aside, many games I've run and played in have involved characters constantly wandering, travelling, or otherwise "on the go".
Quoteand they can't interact with anyone other than each other, session after session, and you don't see how that limits your game play and might be a problem for groups?
Who said they can't interact with anyone? Have you actually read Promethean? And sure, its a limit. Every game has limits unless you're playing "dimension-hopping godlings". And sure some groups wouldn't want to play the game. That's true of
every game, ever. There's nothing especial about Promethean or Wraith in that regard. The games present a specific premise. That premise appeals to some gamers, and does not to others. I've no idea why that would befuddle you? You cannot concieve of players that the premise would appeal to? We're not exactly talking about
Maid or
FATAL here. These games represent pretty standard archetypal situations and premises in fantasy and horror fiction.
In addition to the Incredible Hulk I can also see a Promethean campaign as bearing some resemblance to the old series Carnivale... a collection of freaks and geeks, shunned by the outside world... travelling about with various intermixing and complications. A sort of hobo/gypsy Odyssey. Also a bit of Clive Barker's 'Cabal' mythology with Midian as the promised land for such outsiders.
Totally viable gaming premise IMO.
My group played Wraith back in the day, the Storyteller was very enthusiastic about the game. We actually had a very regular game of it going for a while, focused on doing missions for the various factions and seeing if we could keep our noses above water. It was a small player group (myself and one other), and that worked much better. But damn was it dark and hopeless. I tended to use Wraith as a sourcebook for my own Mage games rather than to run it myself. I never touched Promethean - the reviews in my local community were unanimous: unplayable.
Wraith is a beautiful setting and is a wonderful read. Actually playing it takes some effort, though. One problem I didn't expect (but probably should have) is that there is too much going on, and you have to focus on just a little of it. There are spectres, and the guilds, and the legion , and the Hierarchy, and the Renegades, and the Heretics, and regular wraiths, and then you also have each of the PCs with their own stories to tell, both in life (which is still important to them), and what they do in death, and then on top of that each PC has a shadow with its own motivation. You really have to pare down the plot threads to what you want to deal with or else a kudzu plot takes over and you never get any one thing resolved*.
One rules-wise change I would make is this: make virtually nothing do aggravated damage. There is so much stuff that will just kill your ghost (*ahem*), that it's easy never to see anyone's shadow, or care about their fetters since they won't be reappearing at them, or care about their backstory or motivations since they're just going to die to a random spectre claws.
*Which you really want to happen, especially if that plot thread relates to a PCs transcendence. As grim-dark as the setting seems, there is actually a reasonable chance of achieving the games 'victory conditions.' Certainly in comparison to like Vampire, where Galconda or whatever exists, but really only in theory and won't happen to your PC without strong GM intervention.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;912024Isn't, like, the first unofficial rule of running WoD to never, ever run mixed supernatural campaigns?
At least in some early editions it was an official rule. Think first saw it in Wraith or maybee Mage advising that the settings were not quite compatible.
Quote from: Snowman0147;912303I was referring to the typos and poor downloads that don't work. Still what you said is pretty valid.
Isn't "zhe, zir, zhey" just three typos?