Quote from: Nexus;1013137It is?

Meh. I went back and forth on saying such a thing. Certainly I was much more discussing getting one's character laid in-game for vicarious thrill. And even that... y'know, I play silly elf games to be the hero, who am I to judge someone else's wish fulfillment. But your 'it is?' just highlights the main point... I can't figure out what the OP thought his character was doing in this situation that he felt the need to retribute against them (regardless of whether retribution is the right response) with the spiked drink and needing to be rescued etc. etc. etc., or why he insists that their behavior was sketchy.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1013235Meh. I went back and forth on saying such a thing. Certainly I was much more discussing getting one's character laid in-game for vicarious thrill. And even that... y'know, I play silly elf games to be the hero, who am I to judge someone else's wish fulfillment. But your 'it is?' just highlights the main point... I can't figure out what the OP thought his character was doing in this situation that he felt the need to retribute against them (regardless of whether retribution is the right response) with the spiked drink and needing to be rescued etc. etc. etc., or why he insists that their behavior was sketchy.

I'm puzzled by the overall situation too. The response seemed overly harsh but maybe there were more details and circumstances driving things. It did strike me as weird that using sex  (I guess?) to lure someone off to slit their throat in the toilet was easier to get away with and more approved of than (what seemed like) using sex to get close to them and gather information. Or just hooking up during some semi downtime?

This is one of the cases where I have no idea who is being sarcastic on the internet.
Except Voros, thank you for that smiley to make it clear.

Quote from: Bren;1013029One gets increasingly tired as each decade passes.

Fucking Ay, you got that right.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1012924Well, he did say that they were the 'Drinkwater Gang,' so y'know, no hangovers.

Heh.  Actually, they got the name after their first caper where a bank robbery attempt wound up with them killing every man, woman, child, and puppydog in the town of Drinkwater, Texas.

Wow, lotta replies! Thanks guys, trying to respond to them all now.

Quote from: DavetheLost;1012648If you don't like the IC behaviour of players have an OOC serious talk with them about you do and do not want to see at the game table.  Make it very clear where the lines are drawn.

By awarding them "a fuckton of EXP" for escaping bad situations by teh skin of their teeth, you are rewarding them for getting into those bad situations. You are not saying "don't do this again".

Seriously, have a talk with your players about what you do and do not want to see in the game. Have it out of character, with the lights on, like mature adults.

This is too idealistic for my tastes experience. Plus, I don't have to: my regs happily play bouncer for me and I love em' for it. I guide softly first offense, firmly explicate in front of everyone second, there's no third time. I'm running the equiv of a Tier 2 faction in Hunter at the club.

At my home games, it's much more casual since we know each other well and a long time so no-one does this in the first place. Different environments.

Quote from: Headless;1012657Are you playing a Vampire game?  

One that is aboit discovering your inhumanity, and redeiming yourself.  I play vampire Larp for a while it was great, but there were players that pure griefers and dumb about it too.  I've never had to deal with griefers.  Harsh lessons might be the right thing.

You've been really lucky then and it's almost 100% by accident. You really need a griefer in your life. Once this happens, I guarantee your opinions on the hobby and players of it will change drastically. This is not a bad thing: it's the equiv of being dosed with political realism theory.

Quote from: Itachi;1012660Nah, that's not cool OP. You do a social activity to have consensual fun, not to impose your definition of fun on others. You're behaving like the asshole in the tuesday night ball game that keeps pushing and scolding friends to play hard etc. while people are there just to vent off a little. If you're not satisfied with the way this group plays, go find another one.

You could have a conversation with them to convince the group to try your style, that's cool and positive. But auto assiming your way is the best for the group is just wrong.

Everyone is having fun. They wouldn't come back and pay week after week if they weren't, hah hah. If some of us are grabbing Starbucks afterwards, they'll tell me both good and bad and I'll feedback them too and we end up having better games for it. Something I'm quite thankful for. They've told me I'm way too easy on Paradox rolls time and time again, hah hah.

Quote from: S'mon;1012669Definitely not - and I GM a lot publicly for strangers (I'm an Alpha Geek too!) , so it's not that. Maybe you get the bad players because you're running some kind of degenerate necrophiliac play-an-undead game, and I have Dungeons & Dragons.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2007[/ATTACH]

BTW I don't think my Meetup has ever sent a player "to see the Organiser" - if a player is annoying, GM boots them from the table. Likewise, I don't punish PCs with 'harsh consequences' PCs experience natural consequences. Annoying players get booted - though I don't think I've had to boot a player since 2010. Getting older may be a factor, I don't see 'shit tests' from young punks anymore. My players Respect Mah Authoritay - and they respect each other, too.

ALPHA GEEKS! HWOARAH!

We're finishing up our second Mage Chronicle pretty much now it's EOY. The fucked-upness comes from them trying to turn people inside out with Life and Space magic or trying to cause forced ODs in junkie dens with Spirit magic or changing neon signs lighting with Forces to read "THE COCK" instead of The Courteous Rake (that's what I get for coming up with fancy names for Silver Ladder clubhouses again...).

That has happened twice before at mine. It's not pleasant but when people pay to play a quality game of NWOD and you've got more than one table to manage, you gotta have some member QA and an escalation policy. It's why I liken my club to Tier 2 Hunter Compacts because to take it next level, you've gotta introduce "organization" to it. It's worked out well so that's what matters.

Quote from: S'mon;1012670I'm guessing it was a male player with promiscuous female NPC, and you took against him for this reason. Whereas female players get treated differently/better?

If you're not comfortable with male player/female PC, better tell them upfront. Or if they have to play non-promiscuous female PCs only, tell them.

This is still a male-dominated hobby and some dudes just get weird around women

Are you sure that doesn't include you? It sounds rather like you behaving weirdly to male players when female players are around.  Possibly some kind of mild white knighting reflex. I don't have enough info to know what's happening but it does sound as if something strange is going on. I see this now and then with younger male players, one guy hated that another guy played a promiscuous female bard whereas the female players had no problem with it.

Nah, I get weird when female players start using male PCs as rape machines because that was their idea of Neutral Evil (I hate that I can say this happened but... it happened. I still allow Evil characters at my table, though). I've had female players play female PCs and have them strip on a regular for infiltration missions or even when relaxing (this happened in an Only War game I did years back because the PC had a major Mutation called Phase which enabled them to go Incorporeal and back in a flash). These are separate players, by the way (quickly banned the former, latter has played in several of my games and has made them all the better for it).

Quote from: Nexus;1012700What do you mean by White Knighting? I mean it seems like you're kind of White Knighting in some respects. Its okay to use sex to lure someone off to murder them (apparently without 'dire consequences') but its skeevy and sketchy to screw someone to get close to them or get information, which does happen in the real world not to mention fiction?

Hell, its a pretty common action as far as women playing women in my experience at least as is playing 'promiscuous' characters that are at least willing to use sex to get what they want, both male and female.

Two separate instances. Throat slitting one was female player with male PC. Second was female-female.

White Knighting mention isn't that. It's playing a peacemaker to death (and then almost to literal death of the PC as a result) or not understanding when "it's a wrap, bud". Essentially, I tell em' to go watch some GOT, especially Tyrion Varrys, Ned, Theon or Jon (etc...) scenes so they get the point.

IME, there's two types. Those who feel they need to be extra/"cute" to fit in (so they try it every other chance they get) or those who don't give a fuck and this is their character. The first is straight extra and it gets annoying quick (and I, or most times another female player, goes to talk to them/chats in a separate window with them privately about it as you do), the second is legitly roleplaying the character. I've mostly had the second and they have been some of my best players ever -- added to the game immeasurably.

On the male side, it's just straight creepers (I ban them from the outset or they leave themselves after a sesh or two) or its guys who've never been told it's not ok.

Quote from: Nexus;1012720It reminds me a little of something happens in a Shadowrun game I was in years ago. I was playing a female character and she and her brother had been orphaned at an early age. As part of her background I mention that they'd had some lean hard years during which she'd done things she wasn't proud off to survive including prostitution. Nothing luridly detailed or explicit just a note in her background that I thought was fitting and suitably "dark urban' future the GM got really weird about it, claiming that she'd have to have all number of issues, problems and diseases, etc. When he'd introduced any number of essentially 'Happy Hooker" stereotypes in the game previously.

Later, another PC (female played by a male) was trying to relax after a run had gone really sideways and she'd almost died. She met with a guy described as a friendly accquaintance, they talked for awhile then retired to privacy and hooked up, mostly as a stress relief and a need for companionship on her part. Again the gm got weird and suddenly she had a reputation as a 'slut' and was scorned by just about everyone for being this terrible person that engaged in consensual sex... or something.

Well, that's just... bizzare. Fuck that GM, I hope I neverdo anything like that.

Quote from: joriandrake;1012725Which is ironic, because that's the actual realism of many jobs/working places for girls.

Yep.

Strangely, my bandit lord (who was female) NPC was praised exclusively by my female players. I didn't understand why at first (because she is a bit of sadist, brutal killer, merciless and condones the rape of men and women who can't protect themselves or fight). Then they told me over drinks she was "strong", "really well done", "I can see her" and "is my spirit animal". Guess I just try to make believable characters.

Quote from: S'mon;1012731Yeah... and indeed I have occasionally seen a male GM treat a female player's PC that way, too.

Never understood that.

Quote from: Nexus;1012735Neither of those PCs in those cases was promiscuous unless you define it as "Have had sex outside of marriage at some points in their life". The second had a fairly normal sex life for a healthy adult woman her age, the first was essentially asexual for the most part. I've had players, male and female, play promiscuous characters though.  Being attractive and sexy seems to be an equally opportunity fantasy, IME.

We have several actors/performers/occasional models and some people who are just genetically blessed (not to toot my own horn *wink*) who are regs at the club so some of us get to be attractive and sexy in real-life too. Don't know why WOD attracts these types, it just does. Funny thing is, my deputy said I'd be a great Daeva -- we'd be Daevas together!

Quote from: Voros;1012765Still not clear on the situation at the table, you used the term 'seduce' which suggests consensual flirting and sex to me not 'creepy stalker.' Seems to me that how you describe the situation is potentially close to a 'rolling to failure' situation.

But the ultimate result sounds dramatic and fun. As estar noted you should be careful of reducing every NPC to a schemer out to screw over the players as not only is it not believable, essentially a form of meta-gaming, but it also can stop the game world from being any fun to the players and encourages them to murderhobo since no one is ever going to actually help them.

Thanks dude. That's all I'm trying to do at the end of the day. And my harsh reaction seem to fit the bill so I keep chugging along with em'.

Some of my players actively turn the NPCs against them, even when the other players are just about tearing their hair out to get them to stop. This is happened in most every game I've ever done across formats. I gladly consequenceiate them.

Quote from: AsenRG;1012773Care to share examples of actually empowering players?


We don't know you, so yes, all of this is possible:).


All well and good, provided you are fair about what would gonna go well.


You mean they couldn't fight him off or even dodge and run (or, alternatively, they couldn't see him approach)? OK, yeah, a non-combatant should try this stuff with a violent individual.


Why? Because you hate white knighting, or because the NPCs hated it?


Why didn't you just tell him "you get no roll"?


Why? Because you didn't appreciate the attempt, or because you had decided the NPC is the type that would use "date drugs"?


Yes.
But some do it for a better reason than others. Hence me asking you about your reasons;).

My crafting players always end up creating OP-as-fuck weapons and other stuff for the other players. Usually, players are shitted on for crafting when I've played instead of GM'd. I don't think that's ok. So I just let them run amok and they end up creating greek fire grenades, nerve toxins, cart-mounted balistae and the equiv of Hellboy's Baby. Oh, it fucks up my encounter balance, but I totally let em' go for it because why the fuck not?

I'm definitely an asshole. Seems to work for me, hah hah.

They walked right up close to the tough and did that shit. I auto-crit'd them but left them alive. I just simply said they were so busy being this dude, they crit'd themselves by means of stupid.

[video=youtube;jS6kAKj8R9o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jS6kAKj8R9o[/youtube]

As above to other reply, it's when they don't know to give in. Since my worlds are pretty stark, they get educated real quick (but I give em' a save or two because benefit of the doubt and shit).

Yep, that NPC was a drink spiker. That's why I had them have social (but phys too) "wingmen" incase of interruption because birds of a feather and all that...

Thanks for asking my reasons, hah hah.

Quote from: danskmacabre;1012777Seems like heavy handed aggressive GMing.   Certainly not my cup of tea.  As a player, I would bow out of that campaign pretty fast.

I remember not that long ago I had a Gnome in a 5e campaign and revealed the location of a place which angered some faction.

IN BETWEEN SESSIONS my character was arrested and imprisoned with no chance to avoid or any say in it. just like that.
So I just said fine, run it as an NPC as I won't be playing in that campaign again.  

Nice guy, but crap DM imo.

That sounds shit. I've never done that before and can't say I've ever been tempted. I've actually been too nice about town guards and police in my games before when the rogue PCs really should have been executed in the street (the face-slicing incident comes to mind).

Quote from: Bren;1012826Sure. Everybody can punish everybody. That's a fact. It's also rude, stupid, and immature. Most people outgrow such behavior.
   
You and your group have hit a low I have thankfully never experienced.

Not really. I noclip and god mode bullshit away that doesn't entertain my table or disrupts the game. Sulkers know where to go at my table.

Good to know our lows are better than your highs.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1012859That stuff goes on when both the GM and players are still trying to understand what it is they're supposed to be doing in a tabletop game.

Nah, it's what happens when you've got a confident GM and confident players. Soldering on is a big part of maturity, I've yet to see other groups do this. I've overheard heated args at Dragonmeet and my players (mix of members and con goers) and I just rolled our eyes. I've played in many other games, arguments over trivial shit like tactical usage of APC usage or +1 chambering bullets in pistols come to mind.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1012924To the OP-- yes, sorry, we did mistake this for you asking for advice, rather than asking if others did this. I would say of course it has happened at times. No one is perfect, and all of us in my circles who have sat behind the screen have undoubtedly gotten annoyed with someone's gaming actions and decided to 'teach them a lesson' or whatever. But, as a general rule, our theoretically adhered-to best behavior is to try to create a world with internally consistent sets of consequences for actions. And that's what we shoot for. On our good days, that's how it pans out.




You have still not explained what the Player or Character did that was wrong. They tried to 'sex NPCs?' -- as in pick up someone in a bar? That's... well, looking for one night stands is kinda sorta pathetic/vaguely sketchy in real life, doing so vicariously through one's character in a TTRPG is downright sad unless you're doing it as a lark. But again, what is the untoward behavior of the PC in this situation that you felt the need to punish?



Okay, so still not clear where the creepy stalker route comes in, but at least we're getting somewhere. So what has happened in the game is that players have seduced NPCs with important information, instead of sleeping with them mickey-finning them and digging through their desk drawer (instead of other drawers) looking for vital info? So that's acceptable behavior apparently (which IRL it isn't, of course, but I'm assuming the alternative they otherwise would use would be general burglary or violence), but what this person did where you retributed with getting them in trouble wasn't? So what was it that they were trying to do?

"vicariously". That's the word Willie. That's the perfect word. And that's what I cannot do because it disrupts every game I've ever done every time.

Quote from: AsenRG;1013075Admittedly, that seems most likely.
Then again, maybe he's just got players that made stupid enough plans to merit such treatment;).

My players have burnt down entire warehouses (heavily guarded, I might add) which have led to city blocks burning, all because I wouldn't "let them win" (i.e., they decided fighting the guards out front head-on who had archer cover AND THEN sneaking into warehouse was the correct order of operations).

Quote from: DavetheLost;1013081I have been known to ask players "Are you sure you want to do that? It doesn't seem like a very good idea." Sometimes they say "yes" and go ahead and do it anyway, but at least it is then clearly their choice, not the DM being a dick and trying to screw them.

As above, I usually give em' the chance unless it's really stupid.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1013235Meh. I went back and forth on saying such a thing. Certainly I was much more discussing getting one's character laid in-game for vicarious thrill. And even that... y'know, I play silly elf games to be the hero, who am I to judge someone else's wish fulfillment. But your 'it is?' just highlights the main point... I can't figure out what the OP thought his character was doing in this situation that he felt the need to retribute against them (regardless of whether retribution is the right response) with the spiked drink and needing to be rescued etc. etc. etc., or why he insists that their behavior was sketchy.

As above, it comes down to a player problem essentially. But, thankfully, it was sorted.

Quote from: Nexus;1013238I'm puzzled by the overall situation too. The response seemed overly harsh but maybe there were more details and circumstances driving things. It did strike me as weird that using sex  (I guess?) to lure someone off to slit their throat in the toilet was easier to get away with and more approved of than (what seemed like) using sex to get close to them and gather information. Or just hooking up during some semi downtime?

There was a shootout outside the bathroom for unrelated reasons shortly afterwards so there wasn't time or reason to hit em' with consequences.

I've had PC Hunters and NPC Werewolves hook up in-game as you do (totally player-led, there even ended up being a vote over supernatural relationships within the Cell as a result). I don't care about the bonking, could do with more sex in my club games honestly given our demographic. It's the player's pattern of behavior that changes the dynamic of ok-ness.

... "is my spirit animal"

This made me lol for some reason, and which isn't typical in my case.

Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1013353Good to know our lows are better than your highs.

I guess it is opposite day again and nobody told me.

" dedicated World of Darkness club in London!"

Okay, I got it, the OP is trolling us to provide a venue for boasting about how his gaming group is all edgy an' shit.

Ah, twentysomethings.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1013369" dedicated World of Darkness club in London!"

....edited for content....

Ah, twentysomethings.

If I am correct the OP is running a public (pay to play?) role playing club in a major city.  Specialising in World of Darkness.  

So the default tone is going to be alot more dark and fucked up than normal. But its the public part that is important.  He has to play with losers and griefs the rest of us never invite to our private tables.  

I played a Vampire Larp for a while.  Their were losers Dbags, creeps, socaly malformed and some generally pathetic individuals.  Some creepy skeesy ones too.  

There were also some really cool people and I had a lot of fun.

But there is a reason gamers have a certian reputation. It might take specific tools to deal with those kinds of players.  The rest of us just as those players to leave.

Quote from: Headless;1013412But there is a reason gamers have a certian reputation. It might take specific tools to deal with those kinds of players.

For some reason, when it comes to jerkass players, system REALLY matters. Apparently WoD attracts a high proportion of jerks. For some reason 3e D&D/Pathfinder does too, whereas with 4e & 5e D&D I've hardly ever had any issues (in fact with 5e I have never once had an annoying tabletop player, in 4e I recall a guy who played one session with another DM). Over at Dragonsfoot you see it with the old editions too - all the jerks seem to be in the 1e AD&D forum, not Classic 2e OD&D et al.

Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1013353My crafting players always end up creating OP-as-fuck weapons and other stuff for the other players. Usually, players are shitted on for crafting when I've played instead of GM'd. I don't think that's ok. So I just let them run amok and they end up creating greek fire grenades, nerve toxins, cart-mounted balistae and the equiv of Hellboy's Baby. Oh, it fucks up my encounter balance, but I totally let em' go for it because why the fuck not?

OK, got what you mean:).
Though I've got to ask...encounter balance? Aren't you running WoD?

QuoteI'm definitely an asshole. Seems to work for me, hah hah.

Well, as long as you're not an asshole to us, it's fine;).
The people in your life can, supposedly, take care of any other issues.

QuoteThey walked right up close to the tough and did that shit. I auto-crit'd them but left them alive. I just simply said they were so busy being this dude, they crit'd themselves by means of stupid.

Still don't get it. Them being in range and him being tough doesn't mean they can't outtough him;).

QuoteAs above to other reply, it's when they don't know to give in. Since my worlds are pretty stark, they get educated real quick (but I give em' a save or two because benefit of the doubt and shit).

When they don't know to give in?

QuoteYep, that NPC was a drink spiker. That's why I had them have social (but phys too) "wingmen" incase of interruption because birds of a feather and all that...

Ah well, hope your players would think of the same from now on.

QuoteThanks for asking my reasons, hah hah.

No need to thank me, I was just trying to give you a better answer to your question.

QuoteMy players have burnt down entire warehouses (heavily guarded, I might add) which have led to city blocks burning, all because I wouldn't "let them win" (i.e., they decided fighting the guards out front head-on who had archer cover AND THEN sneaking into warehouse was the correct order of operations).

Well, if they could do it, they could do it. Why the firefighters were that bad, though?

Quote from: Headless;1013412If I am correct the OP is running a public (pay to play?) role playing club in a major city.  Specialising in World of Darkness.  

So the default tone is going to be alot more dark and fucked up than normal. But its the public part that is important.  He has to play with losers and griefs the rest of us never invite to our private tables.  

I played a Vampire Larp for a while.  Their were losers Dbags, creeps, socaly malformed and some generally pathetic individuals.  Some creepy skeesy ones too.  

There were also some really cool people and I had a lot of fun.

But there is a reason gamers have a certian reputation. It might take specific tools to deal with those kinds of players.  The rest of us just as those players to leave.

OK, that's funny:).
Except I suspect you might be right. All the stories of convention play I hear tend to confirm that, at least.

Quote from: S'mon;1013425For some reason, when it comes to jerkass players, system REALLY matters. Apparently WoD attracts a high proportion of jerks. For some reason 3e D&D/Pathfinder does too, whereas with 4e & 5e D&D I've hardly ever had any issues (in fact with 5e I have never once had an annoying tabletop player, in 4e I recall a guy who played one session with another DM). Over at Dragonsfoot you see it with the old editions too - all the jerks seem to be in the 1e AD&D forum, not Classic 2e OD&D et al.

My observations confirm this, but until I have a working theory about the reasons, I'd prefer to think that both of us have been victims to statistical flukes:D!

Quote from: Bren;1013029One gets increasingly tired as each decade passes.

In all the ways one could read that, too.  On the plus side, it turns you into the kind of person up with which some things you will not put.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1013767In all the ways one could read that, too.  On the plus side, it turns you into the kind of person up with which some things you will not put.

Then you get to find the kind of girl up with whom you want to shack.

Yes and yes indeed.