TheRPGSite

Anyone tried this game?

I have the old three-ring binder version, and it's very beautifully presented, colourful and with clear layout. In rules it's basically 1980s crunch. You don't just have "skill level", they call it "mastery level." There are quite a few tables.

Considering the combat, during play it seems to be as complex as GURPS 4e with all the options turned on. It's just that instead of GURPS' stuff like "implaing weapons do double damage, triple damage in the vitals hit location, but only normal damage on limbs" and so on, they front-load it and stick it in tables.

But how does it feel in play? I'm concerned that all the consulting tables will really suck out any tension or excitement - I find that those come out in the session best when as soon as the player rolls, they know how they did (more or less) just by looking at the dice.

Obviously, as you become familiar with a system and its charts and rules over time, you start getting that, as players instinctively know what's good or bad - but you have to go through that learning period first. That was my experience with Rolemaster and its charts.

What experiences have people had with HârnMaster?

Quote from: Kyle AaronConsidering the combat, during play it seems to be as complex as GURPS 4e with all the options turned on. It's just that instead of GURPS' stuff like "implaing weapons do double damage, triple damage in the vitals hit location, but only normal damage on limbs" and so on, they front-load it and stick it in tables.

It a little simpler than GURPS in the actual. The crunch is all front loaded on your character sheet. The trick is everyone having that one page chart which can be downloaded from Columbia Games. The only wonky thing is the wounds tracking and in the edition you have and in 3rd edition they streamlined it a lot with simple to add injury levels instead of the percentiles they used in 1st Edition.

Quote from: Kyle AaronBut how does it feel in play? I'm concerned that all the consulting tables will really suck out any tension or excitement - I find that those come out in the session best when as soon as the player rolls, they know how they did (more or less) just by looking at the dice.

Combat pisses players off... in a good way. This is because every wound is detailed. While sounding onerous it isn't in actual play. Players go "That bastard stabbed my upper right arm." or they inflict a grievous slash to the abdomen and literally spill their opponents guts.

The combat matrix works a little better than GURPS style of attack roll and defense as there are in-between results.

Quote from: Kyle AaronObviously, as you become familiar with a system and its charts and rules over time, you start getting that, as players instinctively know what's good or bad - but you have to go through that learning period first. That was my experience with Rolemaster and its charts.

It is far easier and faster to look up stuff with Harnmaster than Rolemaster. I think it is partly their way of handling criticals. Sure Harnmaster has critical success but they do more damage. The gruesome comes in the injury result table and there only a half dozen entries per location.

Quote from: Kyle AaronWhat experiences have people had with HârnMaster?

I am a fan of Harnmaster since the 80s and has varying levels of success over the years. It is great playable system that gives a good sense of realism.  However understand the rules are for its style and really no other. Compared to GURPS, Harnmaster is not as flexible. Beyond the realm of the medieval and magic there is little to guide you.

The 3rd edition has some more stuff like mounted rules and you can get it cheap for $20 + shipping. Otherwise it is little different than the edition you got.

Fandom gives a lot of support at

http://www.lythia.com and http://www.harnlink.com

For those with D20 experience you can get a sense of the flow from this document

http://www.lythia.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Downloads&file=index&req=getit&lid=10

Enjoy
Rob Conley

Thanks estar, that was one of the most informative posts about a game I've ever read on therpgsite.

I've got another Tiwesdaeg (http://www.gamecircle.org/modules/wiwimod/index.php?page=Tiwesd%E6g+Cl%EDewen) campiagn starting up, and it's very much in the "low-magic ripoff of Dark Ages England" spirit of Harn. So the system being unsuitable for other settings doesn't bother me:)

How about character generation? I'm tempted by the random version, but some of my players are so keen that they've already got character concepts.

I knew of lythia.com already, I didn't ask anything over there because if you ask on a game-specific site what it's like, of course they tell you it's awesome, they only argue over whether the next edition will roxxorz or suxxorz.

Quote from: Kyle AaronI've got another Tiwesdaeg (http://www.gamecircle.org/modules/wiwimod/index.php?page=Tiwesd%E6g+Cl%EDewen) campiagn starting up, and it's very much in the "low-magic ripoff of Dark Ages England" spirit of Harn. So the system being unsuitable for other settings doesn't bother me:)

Hey you are the Anglo Saxon Guy. That what I think of your site when I ran across it a year or so. Looks like you have a nice setting going there. I think Harnmaster will suit your needs a lot better than GURPS. Unless of course you are like me and have 15+ years of notes already sitting around in GURPS rules.

Quote from: Kyle AaronHow about character generation? I'm tempted by the random version, but some of my players are so keen that they've already got character concepts.

I do one of two things

1) Those who know my Majestic Wilderlands or Harn well will have a concept they want to try out and so we build a character around that.

2) I used random system for attributes (4d6 throw away the lowest, roll 1 time more than the number of attributes). Dice a few other basics. But other than that I run a pre-game like is suggested in the earliest harn books (it is found in Harn itself). Then at some point we say that your character and go with that.

Quote from: Kyle AaronI knew of lythia.com already, I didn't ask anything over there because if you ask on a game-specific site what it's like, of course they tell you it's awesome, they only argue over whether the next edition will roxxorz or suxxorz.

Well Harn is on Columbia Games Time. Which any Harn fans knows is sloooooow. Right now they are slow but have a solid plan of expansion. Then there is the original Harn author over at http://www.kelestia.com who had a snit with columbia games and now there are two people publishing harn stuff. However Robyn (the original Harn Author) seems to be focusing on the mainland and the broad overview. The columbia Game folks seems to be focused on updating all the core Harn material and adding more depth.

Also to make even more confusing Robyn has own rules based from 1st edition called Harnmaster Gold.

Thanks for that. "Anglo-Saxon guy", hah!

I'm a bit torn. I've got one player who in the last round wanted Tiwesdaeg and GURPS, and another player mounted a coup and got us Osere and Risk Dice. So now we're at Tiwesdaeg, and he's hoping for GURPS, too. But I've another player who's not that keen on it, and a third who's curious what I'll do in contrast to another GM whose implementation of the rules leaves him less than enthused, and a fourth who's indifferent. And the book just looks so damned good.

The main thing is the setting. It has history now - not the nonsense I made up, but the stuff two groups of players have given it. "The Eorl bears the axe the King used to slay the dragon that guarded the Maestgold, when he was a mere wandering adventurer and former fishmonger" - PCs' actions made this gameworld.

I want something that can evoke this setting well, so it shouldn't be too obtrusive with numbers and charts - but at the same time, it must have some depth of detail to keep the players happy, as we plan this run to be 21 sessions, rather than my usual 8-12. It's a hard ask, I know.

I've played several campaigns of HarnMaster.  However, we had quite a number of frustrations with it.  A number of these had to do with the magic system, though, so that might not be such an issue for you.  

For us, the random character generation worked quite well.  It generally gave a pretty interesting picture, though it could be difficult tying randomly generated PCs together, especially when they were of different social class.  

Combat was not particularly slow, but there were times when it gave some wonky results.  We didn't have any really big problems with the system, but a lot of little ones such that we felt like trying another system rather than a lot of house rules.  (We've switched to a different system for our current Harn campaign, though, and I don't quite remember details about our combat issues.)

Quote from: jhkimI don't quite remember details about our combat issues.)

This exposes the dirty laundry. http://www.lythia.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Downloads&file=index&req=getit&lid=11

In 1st Edition Harnmaster and Harnmaster Gold there was problem where if warriors made all their saves they were so beat to hell they could no longer effect each other essentially. In harnmaster the bad stuff is the result of was is essentially a failed saving throw. Injury main impact is that it reduces your skill. Enough injury both you and your opponent are swinging at 5%.

HMC and HM 3rd edition fixes this by tweaking the various injury rules to make ito likely a person with a lot of injury will pass out from subsequent injury. There are also optional bleeding rules and other optional rules you can mix in to get the level of realism you want.

Hi Kyle,
I can't add much to Rob's posts on the subject. As a fan of HarnWorld & HarnMaster, I just wanted to wish you good luck.

Don't forget the CGI freebies for HM:
http://www.columbiagames.com/cgi-bin/query/cfg/zoom.cfg?product_id=4001

Since you know about lythia.com I just wanted to suggest that some of the systemless place downloads would be helpful when fleshing out Tiwesdaeg if you are pressed for time.

Happy gaming.
Dan

For any medieval based type game, I double Dan's recommendation. Any of the Harn articles on castles, keeps, and even towns will be useful. Harn Manor comes with four villages Nasty Brutish and Short has one as well.

Plus you may be interested in this

http://www.aedificium.org/Maps/index.html
http://www.aedificium.org/Maps/LocalMaps.html
http://www.aedificium.org/Maps/InteriorMaps.html

if you have campaign cartographer 2 you may want to get mappa harnica.

http://www.thechmp.com/MappaHarnica/index.htm

note this does not work with Campaign Cartographer 3



Rob Conley

Last night two of the eventual four players came around to make characters. The absent ones, one had his wedding anniversay with his wife, the other only had short notice and as he's a husband and father needs to plan everything ahead of time ;)

We settled on using HarnMaster, and somewhat random character generation.

• Everyone is human, and chooses their gender.
• Everyone is in a feudal/viking culture, and unguilded.
• Roll for Strength, Stamina, Dexterity and Agility, swap rolls within this.
• Roll for Eyesight, Hearing, Smell and Voice, swap rolls within this.
• If you roll on the physical chart, get +2 to put into these eight.

• Roll for Intelligence, Aura, Willpower and Morality, swap rolls within this.
• If you roll on the mental chart, get +3 to put into these four.

• ignore Piety and gods for now.
• Choose any occupation on the Viking/Feudal lists, but no gladiator or Viking as the culture doesn't have them.
• Folklore is an automatic skill
• When choosing the 5 non-occupation skills, can open any 2 combat skills to represent service in the fyrd.
  
• A character image or a character background of 1/4-1 page, and an existing close relationship with 1 or more other characters in the partywill get +1 Skill Base or +1 Attribute
  
• Random armour is only for those who choose to be
  • huscarls or mercenary/brigands
  • weaponcrafter who specialises in armour
  • anyone with Hideworking skill may have leather armour
  • anyone with Textilecraft may have quilted armour
  • In these last three cases, roll against the skill.
  • Critical failure gets nothing
  • Failure gets 1 random item
  • Success gets 2
  • Critical success gets 3
  • Plate mail doesn't exist

[/LIST][/LIST] The stuff in italics I still have to tell the players, we were stumbling a bit last night.

There are still a few things we're figuring out. It's not clear from the text, if you don't choose the skill, do you simply have 0% in it? Or is there some default chance? And while the text tells us what it takes to improve a skill, it doesn't tell us what it takes to improve an attribute, or get a new skill.

I'll be looking through lythia.com's house rules for suggestions on this stuff.

Quote from: Kyle AaronThere are still a few things we're figuring out. It's not clear from the text, if you don't choose the skill, do you simply have 0% in it? Or is there some default chance? And while the text tells us what it takes to improve a skill, it doesn't tell us what it takes to improve an attribute, or get a new skill.

You have use of several automatic skills.

Climbing, Jumping, Stealth, Throwing, Awareness, etc. they are the ones printed in CAPS on Skill 3

In beginning of each skill listing like the one for Combat on Skill 19 they talk about what it takes a get a new skill of that type. They somewhat improve this procedure in Harnmaster 3.

As far as I know you don't improve attributes. You make want to assign a improvement time and use the character point system on Character 23 to award points for increasing attributes.

As Harnmaster is meant to be more realistic use your common sense and go with it. Say that if a character put 10 of his monthy Skill Maintenance Points he can get one attribute point. Of course not all attributes can be increased up the same way or as easy.

Is there any magic in this game?

Yes basically you learn difference spells that are organized into one of six colleges plus neutral magic. You are encouraged to have players develop their own spells. I haven't used it extensively so I can't tell you how it feels.

My one recommendation would be to ban plate armour.  A knight in quilted + Chain + Plate becomes almost impossible to damage!

Once that is applied, it is a fantastic system

Quote from: bottgMy one recommendation would be to ban plate armour.  A knight in quilted + Chain + Plate becomes almost impossible to damage!

Once that is applied, it is a fantastic system

There are ways of taking the tin can out. But in general somebody whereing such a combination of armor would be a combat monster.

But here where common sense comes into play. I played NERO boffer live action for many years with a little SCA (medieval reenactment). The general immobility of plate armor is a myth, if it is fitted to you and if you have the strength you can move and fight in it with no problems.

Several issues come into play. While you can move and fight in it ok, how about lugging 60 pounds of armor plus whatever gear all day. How about it's effect on your horse. You have odor problems, maintenance to do, and finally are you actually going to sleep in the thing day after day. Are you going to spend the hour each days just to gear up. Remember in order for it work right the armor has to be properly strapped up. Too loose and too tight you run into issues. You can do it yourself given a good design but it takes time and you have to do every time you don and doff your armor. Also did I mention the odor.

In short if you had to where armor all the time you quickly gravitate to "good enough" protection for comfort and ease of use. For myself I found a combination of a coat of plates with shoulder guards, a set of leg plates designed to fasten with a single strap each and hanging off a belt, my helm, forearm vambraces, and gloves to be good enough. If I knew a big fight was coming up I had a set of articulated arm plate that I could strap myself into in   place of the vambraces. But I had to take off my coat of plates put the arm plates (which had straps running across my shoulders and upper chest. Then put the coat of plates on. I also slapped on a pair of greaves for my lower legs.

Harnmaster has a encumerance penalty for wearing armor that ways a lot. Plus various disease rules you can use as template to represent more minor aliments. Jack up the time requirement spends on maintaining his armor. Finally apply common sense for characters insist on where ludicrous amounts of armor. Make it clear what the trade-offs are for wearing a lot of armor.

QuoteMake it clear what the trade-offs are for wearing a lot of armor.

Good point! And don't forget the social aspects too when the PCs are in towns, before nobles, etc. In our age not just anybody can wear full SWAT gear and stand near a mid/high level elected official.

All of the above are valid downsides to wearing armour, but the most telling (and funniest) cost came when the characters were travelling down river on a barge.  The "tank" refused to take off his armour, even after warnings.  One day they were attacked by Vlasta (Eaters of eyes), who they had encountered before, and taken one of the tanks eyes through his helmet eye slot.
He had the bright idea of turning his helmet around to protect his remaining eye.  His eye was now safe.....but not being able to see where you are going, in a fight, on a barge, in full plate can only ever lead to one ending........

A difference between HarnMaster and my campaign is a difference of 500 years or so. So this affects not only the armour issue, but also the "chivalric arms" issue.

My campaign is  set in something like Anglo-Saxon England, 600-700, but one where there were never Romans. So plate armour doesn't exist in any form, certainly not the full plates and not even the lorica segmenta. If the PCs visit the mainland, they'll have to go through weeks of travel through people like themselves, and only after that will they encounter the Empire, with some equivalent of lorica segmenta for heavy infantry. There'll be no plate armour for cavalry because the Empire hasn't yet bred the large horses that can bear a heavy man with all his gear wearing it.

Chain will be the greatest prize they can hope for. At this time, pure iron without little chunks of impurities was worth one-quarter to one-half its weight in silver. So a chain byrnie with a weight of 21lbs would have a value in its iron alone of £5-£10; adding in the work would bring it to twice that. By comparison, peasant farmers might earn £1 annually, and a well-off thane have an income of £20 or so - but three-quarters of that income goes straight back to the people under him.

In a previous campaign, one of the PCs inherited the thanedom and a treasury of £100, but as the previous thane had remitted all taxes, had to go off adventuring anyway, and in the process won the Maestgold, a dragon-guarded hoard of gold, silver, precious stones and the like worth £1,000. With this he was able to support his friend in his bid to become Cyning (King) of all the land, not by buying armour, but by hiring men who already had armour. A few hundred men with metal armour were able to determine the fate of the entire kingdom.

That's how it was in the Dark Ages. It wasn't the days of mass armies, but of smallish armies. These are the days, of course, in which a single hero - or at least, a party of heroes - could determine the fate of countries. Good days for adventuring, even if you don't have a lot of armour ;)

I'm one of Kyle's players (the absent, anniversary having one). Harn wasn't my first choice, but I've been hearing about it for years and so I'm pretty keen to play. I'll try to remember to post my impressions here.

Out of interest, having not read the rules, how easy is it to loose body parts etc in combat? Do the rules model that?

Quote from: OliveI'm one of Kyle's players (the absent, anniversary having one). Harn wasn't my first choice, but I've been hearing about it for years and so I'm pretty keen to play. I'll try to remember to post my impressions here.

Out of interest, having not read the rules, how easy is it to loose body parts etc in combat? Do the rules model that?

Yeah it has amupation rules. If you do a strike that has an impact of 17 or better on the following hit locations you are looking at a roll to see if the part amputated. Neck, Upper Arm, Elbow, Forearm, Hand, Groin (Ouch!), Thigh, Knee, Calf, Foot. I don't have the rules in front of me at the moment but I believe like other rolls it is a save against an attribute modified by your current physical penalty (injury plus encumbrance).

On a different note the third edition rules can be had for $10. http://www.columbiagames.com/cgi-bin/query/cfg/zoom.cfg?product_id=4001L
They come punched for a three ring binder and with a pair of combat charts.

This is one of the better deals around for an RPG. However it is without a magic or religious system those are separate purchases $30 each. Plus those two come with a lot of Harn specific info. The Religous more than the Magic.

Quote from: OliveI'm one of Kyle's players (the absent, anniversary having one). Harn wasn't my first choice, but I've been hearing about it for years and so I'm pretty keen to play. I'll try to remember to post my impressions here.

I look forward to reading these!

Quote from: OliveOut of interest, having not read the rules, how easy is it to loose body parts etc in combat? Do the rules model that?

Yes, while the below is from the 3rd edition they show the rules your GM can use (there are also rules for bleeders, etc.) you can also loose feet, etc from frostbite:

❏ Limb Injuries
Any Serious injury on the Arm/Shoulder
requires a fumble roll, and one to the Leg
(includes Hip) requires a stumble roll. Any
Grievous injury to a limb is an automatic
fumble or stumble and renders the limb
unusable. A wing/tail/tentacle is rendered
unusable if it receives a grevious injury.
A bipedal creature with one usable leg can
crawl unaided, or rise and walk with the
aid of a staff/crutch/etc. A quadruped
with three good legs may rise/walk, at half
effective Move. Unusable limbs become
usable again when they heal to M1.

❏ Amputations ()
With a Grievous Edge strike, the body
part noted may be amputated. Roll the
indicated number of d6 (G4 roll 4d6). Do
not include any additional dice for other
injuries. If the result exceeds one-tenth of
the victim's weight, the part is severed.
With Amputation of a Limb, an automatic
stumble or fumble occurs and the wound
level is always G5. Whether Amputation
occurs or not, make a normal Shock Roll.

Cool. I've been pushing for GURPS in the game because

a) Kyle seems to know it pretty well
b) I've got the rules and never played it

and most importantly

3) I've mostly been a DnD player and I've been wanting a rules system that more accurately models the impact of combat. I want combat to be a real risk. I played a bit of WFRP and found the combat system kind of annoying and I thought GURPS might be the sort of thing I wanted to play and eventually GM.

But Harn sounds like fun and like will give me all of number 3 without having the side effects of grumpy other players who hate GURPS.

Quote from: Olive3) I've mostly been a DnD player and I've been wanting a rules system that more accurately models the impact of combat. I want combat to be a real risk. I played a bit of WFRP and found the combat system kind of annoying and I thought GURPS might be the sort of thing I wanted to play and eventually GM.

But Harn sounds like fun and like will give me all of number 3 without having the side effects of grumpy other players who hate GURPS.

Not to threadjack but one trick I found that works is a well prepared packet of templates. Along with an explanation of what the choices mean. That works when people are intimidated by the trying to put together characters using the GURPS Rules.

You should be satisfied in #3 with Harnmaster. GURPS 4th + Martial Arts 4th is a winner as far as realistic feel. But Harnmaster injury system still works better. Where GURPS has Harnmaster beat is on the rules for hitting people with feints, beats, locks, and so on.

However one problem Harnmaster doesn't have via GURPS is the problem of the guy with the high defense skill. With combat being resolved by opposed rolls compared in a matrix something is usually always happening. The matrix are simple enough that they don't bog down play. Again just give everyone a copy of the combat card.

I'm glad to see Olive commenting. He normally doesn't comment on forums, he must have a life or something strange like that ;)

At first glance at the rules, it seems relatively easy to lose limbs in combat. 2-4d6 against 12-16, basically it's a 50-50. A good whack with a sword or axe on an unarmoured victim should do it.

That "something's always happening" because of the combat tables also seemed interesting to me. For those who haven't seen it, what happens is that attacker and defender both roll. Then each gets a result as normal in any game - critical success, success, failure or critical failure. The two are cross-referenced on a table to give you 1 of 16 results. In addition, the defender gets to choose one of four actions when defending - block, dodge, counterstrike or ignore. The counterstrike is interesting - the defender's more likely to get hit, but if they're not, they're actually likely to hit the attacker.

So in most cases, whatever people roll, something will happen. Whereas in GURPS, RuneQuest, etc, when both have a very high or very low skill, many turns pass with nothing happening, which of course is not fun.

The three-ring binder rules have two copies of the combat tables. Perhaps I'll get one laminated in case of Fanta explosions ;)

It's interesting that the Columbia Games site has the books cheaper than does ebay.

Quote from: Kyle AaronI'm glad to see Olive commenting. He normally doesn't comment on forums, he must have a life or something strange like that ;)

I used to be in the top 100 posters over at ENWorld, and I post a wee bit on RPG.net. But the ENWorld stuff was when I was avoiding writing my MA.

QuoteIt's interesting that the Columbia Games site has the books cheaper than does ebay.

Oh dear. I didn't think to look at that and just bought the binder version off eBay. Bugger.

Except I just looked and didn't see the version you're using.

Ah, that's true, a new edition. Mind you, the CG page says of the 3rd,

The system is largely unchanged from the second edition and migration is easy.  

But then, you have to wonder why you should buy a new but "largely unchanged" edition. The one estar linked us to was the 3rd "light" edition for $10, while the other is $30; it's not clear what the differences are.

Well anyway, whatever we get we'll make good use of it. No coups this time ;)

Now what I really want is some pre-painted miniatures for Dark Ages characters. I'll have to have a look around.

Quote from: Kyle AaronBut then, you have to wonder why you should buy a new but "largely unchanged" edition. The one estar linked us to was the 3rd "light" edition for $10, while the other is $30; it's not clear what the differences are.

The difference between the $30 version and the $10 version is the box, character sheets, and a nice GM Screen.

3rd edition gets you some extra rules like horse mounted combat, some monster articles on Ivashu and Gargun. Jousting rules. On the harn forum there is a comparsion. I bought a copy of the $10 version and I am glad I did.

Quote from: bottgMy one recommendation would be to ban plate armour.  A knight in quilted + Chain + Plate becomes almost impossible to damage!

Once that is applied, it is a fantastic system

Historically that is pretty accurate, you kill a knight by knocking him over, swarming him with peasants so he can't get up and then stabbing him in the eye through his helmet.

The Ars Magica supplement, Ordo Nobilis, discusses this with an example from an actual battle.  Plate mail clad knights were nigh on invulnerable in one on one combats, they either got worn down from fatigue (at which point you could pin them down) or swarmed by lots of lightly armoured opponents (at which point you could pin them down).

Quote from: BalbinusHistorically that is pretty accurate, you kill a knight by knocking him over, swarming him with peasants so he can't get up and then stabbing him in the eye through his helmet.
QUOTE]

Something similar happened in another session of that same campaign.  The knight, able to face off against most opponents, was taken down by 6 unarmoured and not particularly skilled pilgrims with quarterstaves.  The outnumbering (each subsequent defensive action being at a further minus) meant that although not badly injured, he had acquired a whole heap of bruises (-5 action), and just fell over.  Luckily they wern't out to kill him!

Quote from: bottg

Quote from: BalbinusHistorically that is pretty accurate, you kill a knight by knocking him over, swarming him with peasants so he can't get up and then stabbing him in the eye through his helmet.
QUOTE]

Something similar happened in another session of that same campaign.  The knight, able to face off against most opponents, was taken down by 6 unarmoured and not particularly skilled pilgrims with quarterstaves.  The outnumbering (each subsequent defensive action being at a further minus) meant that although not badly injured, he had acquired a whole heap of bruises (-5 action), and just fell over.  Luckily they wern't out to kill him!

Cool, I have to say, that really does sound medieval in tone.

Hm, perhaps I should look at HM again...

I was looking around and I found this page of stuff (http://www.warflail.com/harn/index.html) done by a guy I used to know back in Perth. He was a Hârn fiend. I played RQ with him once, but I think he thought it was a bit lightweight.

Well, I made my character today. He's strong but not very agile. Popular, but kind of dumb and not well spoken. He's also got epilepsy which should be interesting. Corruptible and average looking.

The charts are very old school looking which is fun and I'm looking forward to playing come Wednesday. Kyle - there had better be some sort of fight, just so I get to use those charts!

As I learned in a rather slow campaign which you also experienced, Olive, fun things like violence don't just happen - you have to make them happen.

If nothing else, the PCs should have a practice fight with wooden swords or something, just so that we're familiar with the system, and nobody gets any rude shocks in their first real combat, with limbs flying off in random directions.

That page looks good, droog, thanks for linking us to it. I like this quote,

HârnMaster           is the best fantasy roleplaying system I've ever GM'ed.          However, even the best systems need a few additions, deletions and alterations

That's the voice of a true GM :)

Quote from: Kyle AaronAs I learned in a rather slow campaign which you also experienced, Olive, fun things like violence don't just happen - you have to make them happen.

I tired! But that game had a slight issue that it seemed that not every one was on the same page as far as 'what is acceptable in public' goes...

QuoteIf nothing else, the PCs should have a practice fight with wooden swords or something, just so that we're familiar with the system, and nobody gets any rude shocks in their first real combat, with limbs flying off in random directions.

That's a good idea. I'll make sure it happens.

You just need strong will to make things happen in a game session - players can wear the Viking Hat, too! :viking: Even girl gamers! :valkyrie:

"That is not acceptable in public."
"Oh no?"
"No."
:maniac:

Violence doesn't solve everything, but you never know until you try. I mean, as you know, Olive, two of the players already arm-wrestled to decide the game system.

I have a feeling HarnMaster will be a very brutal and lethal combat system in play. One sign of that is the random and quick character generation. :D

Quote from: Kyle AaronI have a feeling HarnMaster will be a very brutal and lethal combat system in play. One sign of that is the random and quick character generation. :D

:)

We've had two sessions now, and the campaign is going well. It's got that "slow but speeding up" feeling you often have when some of the players are new to each-other, and new to the game setting/system. Everyone's just settling in.

The rules are interesting. We had a duel last night, and made mistakes with some of the rules, nonetheless as it was it was a good duel - there were exchanges of blows, wounds on both sides, before one was struck in the hip and fell, and was then dispatched by a spear blow in the abdomen.

The system has a "Universal Penalty" for each character, which is their encumbrance level, plus any fatigue malus, plus any wounds they've taken. Sometimes you must roll your Endurance (a 3-18 scale number, usually 9-12) using this Universal Penalty, to see if you stay up.

There are two kinds of Endurance rolls in combat,

• The Fumble/Stumble roll - when given any wound on a limb, roll 3d6 + current penalties (fatigue, wound, encumbrance) against Endurance; roll above and drop what you're holding or fall over.
  
• The Shock roll - every time a character takes a new injury, roll 1d6 for each level of the total penalty (fatigue, wound, encumbrance). Rolling above Endurance means you collapse from fatigue and pain.

So, when struck on a limb, roll Shock (1d6 per level) and Fumble/Stumble (3d6 + penalty), and when struck elsewhere, just roll Shock.

No, I do not know why they are different dice mechanics. Yes, this will make people fall over quite a bit more quickly than you might expect. 3 or 4 Minor Wounds, or one Serious Wound, combined with the -1 or -2 Encumbrance from bearing arms and armour, will probably knock you over.

What do you guys think about all that?

We've had a bunch of sessions now and it's been a good fun game but for the life of me I can't tell how the system has contributed or taken away from that experience.

Kyle, take this as a compliment: the games you run mean that you barely notice the system most of the time. I like systems. I like rules, but you have a confidence around the rules that doesn't let them intrude.

Plus, if I do say so myself, a group of players who allow you to do this. ;)

So I've been meaning to post to this forum about Harn for ages, but I don't feel like I have anything useful to say other than the fact that the system doesn't get in the way of some fun roleplaying.

Quote from: Kyle AaronWhat experiences have people had with HârnMaster?

I had awful experiences, back when 1st edition came out. That was a long time ago and I don't remember all that well except that vague sentiment of dinosaur-ish design and play experience typical of misguided, over-detailed games.

But last saturday, I had a meeting with very old gamer friends. We hadn't met in over a decade and some of them continued to use Harnmaster. This is a supposedly true story, using Harnmaster (I do not know which edition) recounted by the two players involved. I was quite inebriated but I'll remember it forever.

They were playing two swordsmen in a war-torn area of Harn. As they travel, an agressive wild cat who looks like he could really use a snack roars at them. One of the swordsman continues but the other one decides to taunt the beast. After "playing" with the cat while the other swordsman pleads for them to depart quietly, the wild cat has enough. Combat ensues.

The swordsman fumbles badly.
The beast claws at his forearm (it is his sword arm). He drops his sword.
Next, he uses an action to grab the sword and fails (what the fuck?) and while bent over, the wild cat also misses while launching forward (again, what the fucking fuck?).
At which point, the other swordsman comes in play (mouvement restriction and getting his sword ready or some other retarded shit)
The other swordsman hits the beast, which flees.

Combat ends. The taunting swordsman arm is hurt badly, the guy is bleeding. They travel as fast as they can. Thanks to wonderful travel charts and weather charts, they go through hell for many, many hours until in the small hours of morning, they find a damaged inn.

The innkeepers are long dead (war) and the inn is in bad shape but there are a few refugees inside. And there seems to be two, possibly three factions. Nobody trusts nobody, apparently due to some reaction charts and conflicts involved.

Eventually, they lock themselves in a room after some negociations. But nobody will help with the swordsman injuries (they have neither the will to do so, nor the skills, something that is again decided by social role charts and stuff).

The prudent swordsman does his best to care for the taunting swordsman but after a while, it is evident that infection is setting in. Unfortunately, the charts determine that weather is bad. The prudent swordsman decides to chop the other guy's arm, just before the elbow.

More time passes. More boring, ultra-realistic Harn-ish negociations follow. Infection still there. Swordsman decides to chop just above the elbow.

More adventures follow in the inn. This time the prudent swordsman goes so far as to accomplish tasks so he can actually buy the single axe (owned by a warrior refugee at the inn) just in case he needs to chop again. (I am crying due to extreme laughter at this point of the story).

As luck would have it, infection, puss and crap is still there apparently. This time he hacks part of the shoulder, as cleanly as possible with the axe. The poor guy totally fumbles his first try and hits the taunting swordsman in the ribcage (what. the. fuck.). It is not too bd a wound, fortunately. A second try and he cuts off the infected arm clean! Yay!

You probably know what's coming. But here goes anyway. He patches the guy up. They wait a while for the guy to get better and as they decide to continue their journey (they've managed to trade stuff for a mule), they discover that the taunting swordsman has another infection.

From the fucking cut on his ribcage.

Jesus fucking Christ. They were telling me of this adventure with a mix of amusement but also admiration for the game and system. Meanwhile, all I could do was laugh my ass off.

Well, aside from combat, the system is just a plain old vanilla roll-under percentile one. That's pretty unobtrusive unless the GM is a real drongo and asks for constant dice rolls.

The other aspect is GMing. As I've said before, the GM can offer two types of challenges to players and characters: obstacles (traps, monsters, etc) and complications (dilemmas and stuff). Obstacles challenge the player's brains, their dice and the character's ability levels; complications challenge the player's brain. So the system really comes forth with the obstacles, not so much the complications.

I try to put some of both in game sessions, but the complications tend to be remembered a lot more by players. So they forget about the system.

Consonant Dude's described session is an excellent example of all obstacles and no complications, combined with GM stupidity. If you make everyone make enough dice rolls then eventually everyone will die however smart or stupid the players and their characters are. Daft stuff.

PS I don't use the infection rules. People roleplay to do cool stuff. Gangrene's not cool.

Quote from: Kyle AaronPS I don't use the infection rules. People roleplay to do cool stuff. Gangrene's not cool.

We've already agreed to disagree about that.

Quote from: Consonant DudeThe swordsman fumbles badly.
The beast claws at his forearm (it is his sword arm). He drops his sword.
Next, he uses an action to grab the sword and fails (what the fuck?) and while bent over, the wild cat also misses while launching forward (again, what the fucking fuck?).

Ok, quite aside form the other bits of this story, what exactly is wrong with not being able to pick up a sword in a heated combat situation? Or with someone (the cat) missing?

what am I not getting here?

Quote from: OliveWe've already agreed to disagree about that.

The infection numbers would be influenced by conditions. So if you get injured, say, up in the mountains where none of the characters there are real physicians or have any proper medical gear, the chances of infections are pretty good.

So, had we had the infection rules, we wouldn't be talking about what the rules are like because there'd be a TPK and we'd be onto the next campaign :)

Quote from: Kyle AaronThe infection numbers would be influenced by conditions. So if you get injured, say, up in the mountains where none of the characters there are real physicians or have any proper medical gear, the chances of infections are pretty good.

So, had we had the infection rules, we wouldn't be talking about what the rules are like because there'd be a TPK and we'd be onto the next campaign :)

Anyone would think you don't know what the phrase "agree to disagree" actually meant.

Quote from: OliveOk, quite aside form the other bits of this story, what exactly is wrong with not being able to pick up a sword in a heated combat situation? Or with someone (the cat) missing?

what am I not getting here?

I think it's the comedy of failures that I find weird. Also, the language barrier makes it difficult for me to explain the situation in all its splendor but you know in cartoons when for instance, the Coyote (flying with a rocket up his ass) barely misses the Roadrunner because the latter bends down at the last second to check something out?

That's what I envision when I figure an un-cinematic swordsman not being able to grab his sword and a wild cat missing his attack on a vulnerable opponent :D

Quote from: Kyle AaronConsonant Dude's described session is an excellent example of all obstacles and no complications, combined with GM stupidity. If you make everyone make enough dice rolls then eventually everyone will die however smart or stupid the players and their characters are. Daft stuff.

Yeah, I have to agree it sounded stupid. I have to point out that the GM was not there when they told me the story, only his two players. I know the GM personally from my youth (we started roleplaying together) and he is a brilliant guy and was also an excellent GM. He did have a tendancy to stick to rule systems but it certainly never proved to be an handicap like that.

Maybe he's not as good as I remember (we stopped gaming together 17 years ago)

Maybe he was having an off night.

Maybe the campaign went particularly off track at this particular point (this Harn campaign has been going for 14 years)

Maybe the system didn't help.

My guess is that it's a combination of some of the above. System helps me provide color and I am usually a better GM with a better system. It was the same with him as far as I remember.

At first glance, I'd blame subpar GMing and the system in this case.

Quote from: Kyle AaronPS I don't use the infection rules. People roleplay to do cool stuff. Gangrene's not cool.

Yeah. But it makes for hilarious stories :D

That combat sounded kinda cool, actually, and sorta realistic.

But I don't really see where the system made that situation uncool.  As Kyle is fond of saying, rules are the GM's bitch.  If the GM was that tied to rolling on tables for everything, that's just fucked GMing.

I mean, I love to run RoleMaster, the one with all the charts and stuff.  And I use those charts quite a bit.  But I've never let them run the game that way.

EDIT: Gangrene does suck if you're running certain kinds of games, though.

That session sounds like it could have been a blast.  Sometimes everything going to shit is a hooting, hollering fun time.

Quote from: OliveOk, quite aside form the other bits of this story, what exactly is wrong with not being able to pick up a sword in a heated combat situation? Or with someone (the cat) missing?

what am I not getting here?

For what it worth I been in combat in NERO live-action role-playing for over ten years. I had situations where I lost the sword, had to dive to the ground and do a grab for it. Understand that combat happens really quick. So you not doing a aimed grab you are going to get that sword as fast as you can get it the hell back in front of you.

That means there are times you going to fumble around trying to get the thing. Particularly when there are people right there swinging at you. It a lot easier with a shield tho because you have the ability to extend it in front of you as you crouch to grab the weapon.

Now what makes this exciting is the thrill of immediate danger. It is correct that a rollfest in of itself is not fun. But a skilled GM can help create a true sense of danger. Now the rolls have meaning and the game is much more fun.

Quote from: Consonant DudeI think it's the comedy of failures that I find weird.:D

Ok, that makes sense.