Anyone tried this game?

I have the old three-ring binder version, and it's very beautifully presented, colourful and with clear layout. In rules it's basically 1980s crunch. You don't just have "skill level", they call it "mastery level." There are quite a few tables.

Considering the combat, during play it seems to be as complex as GURPS 4e with all the options turned on. It's just that instead of GURPS' stuff like "implaing weapons do double damage, triple damage in the vitals hit location, but only normal damage on limbs" and so on, they front-load it and stick it in tables.

But how does it feel in play? I'm concerned that all the consulting tables will really suck out any tension or excitement - I find that those come out in the session best when as soon as the player rolls, they know how they did (more or less) just by looking at the dice.

Obviously, as you become familiar with a system and its charts and rules over time, you start getting that, as players instinctively know what's good or bad - but you have to go through that learning period first. That was my experience with Rolemaster and its charts.

What experiences have people had with HârnMaster?

Quote from: Kyle AaronConsidering the combat, during play it seems to be as complex as GURPS 4e with all the options turned on. It's just that instead of GURPS' stuff like "implaing weapons do double damage, triple damage in the vitals hit location, but only normal damage on limbs" and so on, they front-load it and stick it in tables.

It a little simpler than GURPS in the actual. The crunch is all front loaded on your character sheet. The trick is everyone having that one page chart which can be downloaded from Columbia Games. The only wonky thing is the wounds tracking and in the edition you have and in 3rd edition they streamlined it a lot with simple to add injury levels instead of the percentiles they used in 1st Edition.

Quote from: Kyle AaronBut how does it feel in play? I'm concerned that all the consulting tables will really suck out any tension or excitement - I find that those come out in the session best when as soon as the player rolls, they know how they did (more or less) just by looking at the dice.

Combat pisses players off... in a good way. This is because every wound is detailed. While sounding onerous it isn't in actual play. Players go "That bastard stabbed my upper right arm." or they inflict a grievous slash to the abdomen and literally spill their opponents guts.

The combat matrix works a little better than GURPS style of attack roll and defense as there are in-between results.

Quote from: Kyle AaronObviously, as you become familiar with a system and its charts and rules over time, you start getting that, as players instinctively know what's good or bad - but you have to go through that learning period first. That was my experience with Rolemaster and its charts.

It is far easier and faster to look up stuff with Harnmaster than Rolemaster. I think it is partly their way of handling criticals. Sure Harnmaster has critical success but they do more damage. The gruesome comes in the injury result table and there only a half dozen entries per location.

Quote from: Kyle AaronWhat experiences have people had with HârnMaster?

I am a fan of Harnmaster since the 80s and has varying levels of success over the years. It is great playable system that gives a good sense of realism.  However understand the rules are for its style and really no other. Compared to GURPS, Harnmaster is not as flexible. Beyond the realm of the medieval and magic there is little to guide you.

The 3rd edition has some more stuff like mounted rules and you can get it cheap for $20 + shipping. Otherwise it is little different than the edition you got.

Fandom gives a lot of support at

http://www.lythia.com and http://www.harnlink.com

For those with D20 experience you can get a sense of the flow from this document

http://www.lythia.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Downloads&file=index&req=getit&lid=10

Enjoy
Rob Conley

Thanks estar, that was one of the most informative posts about a game I've ever read on therpgsite.

I've got another Tiwesdaeg campiagn starting up, and it's very much in the "low-magic ripoff of Dark Ages England" spirit of Harn. So the system being unsuitable for other settings doesn't bother me:)

How about character generation? I'm tempted by the random version, but some of my players are so keen that they've already got character concepts.

I knew of lythia.com already, I didn't ask anything over there because if you ask on a game-specific site what it's like, of course they tell you it's awesome, they only argue over whether the next edition will roxxorz or suxxorz.

Quote from: Kyle AaronI've got another Tiwesdaeg campiagn starting up, and it's very much in the "low-magic ripoff of Dark Ages England" spirit of Harn. So the system being unsuitable for other settings doesn't bother me:)

Hey you are the Anglo Saxon Guy. That what I think of your site when I ran across it a year or so. Looks like you have a nice setting going there. I think Harnmaster will suit your needs a lot better than GURPS. Unless of course you are like me and have 15+ years of notes already sitting around in GURPS rules.

Quote from: Kyle AaronHow about character generation? I'm tempted by the random version, but some of my players are so keen that they've already got character concepts.

I do one of two things

1) Those who know my Majestic Wilderlands or Harn well will have a concept they want to try out and so we build a character around that.

2) I used random system for attributes (4d6 throw away the lowest, roll 1 time more than the number of attributes). Dice a few other basics. But other than that I run a pre-game like is suggested in the earliest harn books (it is found in Harn itself). Then at some point we say that your character and go with that.

Quote from: Kyle AaronI knew of lythia.com already, I didn't ask anything over there because if you ask on a game-specific site what it's like, of course they tell you it's awesome, they only argue over whether the next edition will roxxorz or suxxorz.

Well Harn is on Columbia Games Time. Which any Harn fans knows is sloooooow. Right now they are slow but have a solid plan of expansion. Then there is the original Harn author over at http://www.kelestia.com who had a snit with columbia games and now there are two people publishing harn stuff. However Robyn (the original Harn Author) seems to be focusing on the mainland and the broad overview. The columbia Game folks seems to be focused on updating all the core Harn material and adding more depth.

Also to make even more confusing Robyn has own rules based from 1st edition called Harnmaster Gold.

Thanks for that. "Anglo-Saxon guy", hah!

I'm a bit torn. I've got one player who in the last round wanted Tiwesdaeg and GURPS, and another player mounted a coup and got us Osere and Risk Dice. So now we're at Tiwesdaeg, and he's hoping for GURPS, too. But I've another player who's not that keen on it, and a third who's curious what I'll do in contrast to another GM whose implementation of the rules leaves him less than enthused, and a fourth who's indifferent. And the book just looks so damned good.

The main thing is the setting. It has history now - not the nonsense I made up, but the stuff two groups of players have given it. "The Eorl bears the axe the King used to slay the dragon that guarded the Maestgold, when he was a mere wandering adventurer and former fishmonger" - PCs' actions made this gameworld.

I want something that can evoke this setting well, so it shouldn't be too obtrusive with numbers and charts - but at the same time, it must have some depth of detail to keep the players happy, as we plan this run to be 21 sessions, rather than my usual 8-12. It's a hard ask, I know.

I've played several campaigns of HarnMaster.  However, we had quite a number of frustrations with it.  A number of these had to do with the magic system, though, so that might not be such an issue for you.  

For us, the random character generation worked quite well.  It generally gave a pretty interesting picture, though it could be difficult tying randomly generated PCs together, especially when they were of different social class.  

Combat was not particularly slow, but there were times when it gave some wonky results.  We didn't have any really big problems with the system, but a lot of little ones such that we felt like trying another system rather than a lot of house rules.  (We've switched to a different system for our current Harn campaign, though, and I don't quite remember details about our combat issues.)

Quote from: jhkimI don't quite remember details about our combat issues.)

This exposes the dirty laundry. http://www.lythia.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Downloads&file=index&req=getit&lid=11

In 1st Edition Harnmaster and Harnmaster Gold there was problem where if warriors made all their saves they were so beat to hell they could no longer effect each other essentially. In harnmaster the bad stuff is the result of was is essentially a failed saving throw. Injury main impact is that it reduces your skill. Enough injury both you and your opponent are swinging at 5%.

HMC and HM 3rd edition fixes this by tweaking the various injury rules to make ito likely a person with a lot of injury will pass out from subsequent injury. There are also optional bleeding rules and other optional rules you can mix in to get the level of realism you want.

Hi Kyle,
I can't add much to Rob's posts on the subject. As a fan of HarnWorld & HarnMaster, I just wanted to wish you good luck.

Don't forget the CGI freebies for HM:
http://www.columbiagames.com/cgi-bin/query/cfg/zoom.cfg?product_id=4001

Since you know about lythia.com I just wanted to suggest that some of the systemless place downloads would be helpful when fleshing out Tiwesdaeg if you are pressed for time.

Happy gaming.
Dan

For any medieval based type game, I double Dan's recommendation. Any of the Harn articles on castles, keeps, and even towns will be useful. Harn Manor comes with four villages Nasty Brutish and Short has one as well.

Plus you may be interested in this

http://www.aedificium.org/Maps/index.html
http://www.aedificium.org/Maps/LocalMaps.html
http://www.aedificium.org/Maps/InteriorMaps.html

if you have campaign cartographer 2 you may want to get mappa harnica.

http://www.thechmp.com/MappaHarnica/index.htm

note this does not work with Campaign Cartographer 3



Rob Conley

Last night two of the eventual four players came around to make characters. The absent ones, one had his wedding anniversay with his wife, the other only had short notice and as he's a husband and father needs to plan everything ahead of time

We settled on using HarnMaster, and somewhat random character generation.

• Everyone is human, and chooses their gender.
• Everyone is in a feudal/viking culture, and unguilded.
• Roll for Strength, Stamina, Dexterity and Agility, swap rolls within this.
• Roll for Eyesight, Hearing, Smell and Voice, swap rolls within this.
• If you roll on the physical chart, get +2 to put into these eight.

• Roll for Intelligence, Aura, Willpower and Morality, swap rolls within this.
• If you roll on the mental chart, get +3 to put into these four.

• ignore Piety and gods for now.
• Choose any occupation on the Viking/Feudal lists, but no gladiator or Viking as the culture doesn't have them.
• Folklore is an automatic skill
• When choosing the 5 non-occupation skills, can open any 2 combat skills to represent service in the fyrd.
  
• A character image or a character background of 1/4-1 page, and an existing close relationship with 1 or more other characters in the partywill get +1 Skill Base or +1 Attribute
  
• Random armour is only for those who choose to be
  • huscarls or mercenary/brigands
  • weaponcrafter who specialises in armour
  • anyone with Hideworking skill may have leather armour
  • anyone with Textilecraft may have quilted armour
  • In these last three cases, roll against the skill.
  • Critical failure gets nothing
  • Failure gets 1 random item
  • Success gets 2
  • Critical success gets 3
  • Plate mail doesn't exist

[/LIST][/LIST] The stuff in italics I still have to tell the players, we were stumbling a bit last night.

There are still a few things we're figuring out. It's not clear from the text, if you don't choose the skill, do you simply have 0% in it? Or is there some default chance? And while the text tells us what it takes to improve a skill, it doesn't tell us what it takes to improve an attribute, or get a new skill.

I'll be looking through lythia.com's house rules for suggestions on this stuff.

Quote from: Kyle AaronThere are still a few things we're figuring out. It's not clear from the text, if you don't choose the skill, do you simply have 0% in it? Or is there some default chance? And while the text tells us what it takes to improve a skill, it doesn't tell us what it takes to improve an attribute, or get a new skill.

You have use of several automatic skills.

Climbing, Jumping, Stealth, Throwing, Awareness, etc. they are the ones printed in CAPS on Skill 3

In beginning of each skill listing like the one for Combat on Skill 19 they talk about what it takes a get a new skill of that type. They somewhat improve this procedure in Harnmaster 3.

As far as I know you don't improve attributes. You make want to assign a improvement time and use the character point system on Character 23 to award points for increasing attributes.

As Harnmaster is meant to be more realistic use your common sense and go with it. Say that if a character put 10 of his monthy Skill Maintenance Points he can get one attribute point. Of course not all attributes can be increased up the same way or as easy.

Is there any magic in this game?

Yes basically you learn difference spells that are organized into one of six colleges plus neutral magic. You are encouraged to have players develop their own spells. I haven't used it extensively so I can't tell you how it feels.

My one recommendation would be to ban plate armour.  A knight in quilted + Chain + Plate becomes almost impossible to damage!

Once that is applied, it is a fantastic system

Quote from: bottgMy one recommendation would be to ban plate armour.  A knight in quilted + Chain + Plate becomes almost impossible to damage!

Once that is applied, it is a fantastic system

There are ways of taking the tin can out. But in general somebody whereing such a combination of armor would be a combat monster.

But here where common sense comes into play. I played NERO boffer live action for many years with a little SCA (medieval reenactment). The general immobility of plate armor is a myth, if it is fitted to you and if you have the strength you can move and fight in it with no problems.

Several issues come into play. While you can move and fight in it ok, how about lugging 60 pounds of armor plus whatever gear all day. How about it's effect on your horse. You have odor problems, maintenance to do, and finally are you actually going to sleep in the thing day after day. Are you going to spend the hour each days just to gear up. Remember in order for it work right the armor has to be properly strapped up. Too loose and too tight you run into issues. You can do it yourself given a good design but it takes time and you have to do every time you don and doff your armor. Also did I mention the odor.

In short if you had to where armor all the time you quickly gravitate to "good enough" protection for comfort and ease of use. For myself I found a combination of a coat of plates with shoulder guards, a set of leg plates designed to fasten with a single strap each and hanging off a belt, my helm, forearm vambraces, and gloves to be good enough. If I knew a big fight was coming up I had a set of articulated arm plate that I could strap myself into in   place of the vambraces. But I had to take off my coat of plates put the arm plates (which had straps running across my shoulders and upper chest. Then put the coat of plates on. I also slapped on a pair of greaves for my lower legs.

Harnmaster has a encumerance penalty for wearing armor that ways a lot. Plus various disease rules you can use as template to represent more minor aliments. Jack up the time requirement spends on maintaining his armor. Finally apply common sense for characters insist on where ludicrous amounts of armor. Make it clear what the trade-offs are for wearing a lot of armor.