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I saw someone on G+ asking for a half-orc write-up for DCC.
This got me thinking about why someone might want to play a half-orc... but I didn't come up with much.

Since the guy asking was looking for unseen/unofficial rules (and looking to make up his own if he didn't find any) I can't assume it's just because of some precious rules/mechanics bonus.
 
It seems to me that if you wanted to run a strong/brutal character you could go with a plain old fighter and play him as a barbarian.
Or, if you like orcs go for a purebred/vatbred one... with all the social pariah baggage that might come with it.
Why half-orc? They're still visually non-human so likely to suffer prejudice... likely from both purebreed races. Is there some widespread concept of half-orcs I'm not tuned into?
Is it because playing a straight orc would just lead to too much trouble?

I don't get it, any thoughts?

Quote from: Simlasa;811268I saw someone on G+ asking for a half-orc write-up for DCC.
This got me thinking about why someone might want to play a half-orc... but I didn't come up with much.

Since the guy asking was looking for unseen/unofficial rules (and looking to make up his own if he didn't find any) I can't assume it's just because of some precious rules/mechanics bonus.
 
It seems to me that if you wanted to run a strong/brutal character you could go with a plain old fighter and play him as a barbarian.
Or, if you like orcs go for a purebred/vatbred one... with all the social pariah baggage that might come with it.
Why half-orc? They're still visually non-human so likely to suffer prejudice... likely from both purebreed races. Is there some widespread concept of half-orcs I'm not tuned into?
Is it because playing a straight orc would just lead to too much trouble?

I don't get it, any thoughts?

I dunno about widespread concepts, but this is the half-orc character I'm currently playing:

Dacre Hounslowe, 3rd level half-orc oath of the ancients paladin
Born misshapen and bestial, Dacre Hounslowe has come to regard himself as beautifully grotesque. He is an aesthete, but of a peculiar stripe: he only finds the thrill of pleasure in perceiving that which is terrifying and awe-inspiring to behold. As such, he feels a deep reverence for the monstrous beauty and destructive power of nature. His aesthetic path has led him to become a paladin pledged to protect the sublime grotesqueries of the natural world, and to gratify his animalistic senses at every opportunity.

Quote from: Simlasa;811268Why half-orc? They're still visually non-human so likely to suffer prejudice... likely from both purebreed races. Is there some widespread concept of half-orcs I'm not tuned into?
Is it because playing a straight orc would just lead to too much trouble?

I don't get it, any thoughts?

I'm playing a half-orc cleric in D&D5 right now. I'd be fine with a full-blooded orc, but it wasn't an option in the rules.

In a previous GURPS Fantasy campaign, I was a full-blooded orcish arms merchant - but that was in a setting where orcs were largely integrated with the other races like humans, elves, and dwarves.

I think the problem with full-blooded orcs in D&D is that orcs are designated as an evil race and are a common opponent. They prefer it is there are more clearly cut good guys and bad guys, and orcs are among the bad guys.

Quote from: jhkim;811280I think the problem with full-blooded orcs in D&D is that orcs are designated as an evil race and are a common opponent. They prefer it is there are more clearly cut good guys and bad guys, and orcs are among the bad guys.

So is it kind of similar to people who want to play Drow? Want to play the bad guys as good guys? Why not just a 'good' orc?

The 'niche' that the half-orc fills is big-and-ugly. So it fills a niche for the players who don't give a crap about society or charisma or whatever and just want to hit stuff.
The 'half-' goes on the front because having good orcs raises lots of moral questions which may add more moral ambiguity than you really want, unless you especially like grimdark.

Half-Orc is pretty much Jannets go-to race to play. This started with the old AD&D boar headed orcs and half-orcs had those features too in the campaign we were both in. As mentioned in an older thread, she had rolled really well and was just short of having a Ranger. She got an idea and asked the DM if she could play a Half-Orc Ranger as that would give her just enough to qualify.
The DM allowed it and she had a blast playing this aggressive Miss Piggy character.

Ooh, I wanna share my 5e half-orc!

"I-like-ponies", 2nd level Barbarian Folk Hero

Half-orcs reach adulthood at age 14. "I-like-ponies" is a 6'8" ten year old girl with red hair in long, braided pigtails who loves ponies, and horses, and donkeys... She had a vivid dream that she's gotta save them, and collect them, and love them all in one big herd. When she woke her village's stables were on fire and she rescued all (but one), becoming the youngest folk hero around!

Her mommy was an orc who was 'won' by a passing band of human warriors, destroying her band in a glorious 'marriage proposal' victory. And then, after getting pregnant while traveling, her "no-good, some-such of a father" gone huntin' dragons without her mommy, "probably to go off 'n die out there eating strange weeds like a fool without a female around." So abandoned onto the nearest human village her mom made due and raised her right in the orcish tradition as best she could.

The end!

Quote from: Opaopajr;811357Ooh, I wanna share my 5e half-orc!

"I-like-ponies", 2nd level Barbarian Folk Hero

Half-orcs reach adulthood at age 14. "I-like-ponies" is a 6'8" ten year old girl with red hair in long, braided pigtails who loves ponies, and horses, and donkeys... She had a vivid dream that she's gotta save them, and collect them, and love them all in one big herd. When she woke her village's stables were on fire and she rescued all (but one), becoming the youngest folk hero around!

Her mommy was an orc who was 'won' by a passing band of human warriors, destroying her band in a glorious 'marriage proposal' victory. And then, after getting pregnant while traveling, her "no-good, some-such of a father" gone huntin' dragons without her mommy, "probably to go off 'n die out there eating strange weeds like a fool without a female around." So abandoned onto the nearest human village her mom made due and raised her right in the orcish tradition as best she could.

The end!

So much awesome!

Quote from: Simlasa;811281So is it kind of similar to people who want to play Drow? Want to play the bad guys as good guys? Why not just a 'good' orc?

It's a good question. Why have the drow been an accepted "bad guy" race for years, but never orcs?

I don't think there's a simple answer to that.

One aspect is that orcs are considered more like "mooks", whereas drow are more sophisticated bad guys.

Quote from: jhkim;811374It's a good question. Why have the drow been an accepted "bad guy" race for years, but never orcs?

I don't think there's a simple answer to that.

One aspect is that orcs are considered more like "mooks", whereas drow are more sophisticated bad guys.

Yup.

Drow have intelligence and choice. They choose to be bad and so can choose to be good.
Orcs, like goblins, are all bad or killing their babies and setting light to their warrens/dens becomes problematic.

I would've played an orc, but it wasn't an option in the game we were playing. I don't think a lot of games (least old-school ones) have full orc as an option. Anyway, I loved my half-orc thief lady, so I mostly go for half-orcs out of nostalgia now.

Quote from: jhkim;811280I think the problem with full-blooded orcs in D&D is that orcs are designated as an evil race and are a common opponent. They prefer it is there are more clearly cut good guys and bad guys, and orcs are among the bad guys.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;811310The 'half-' goes on the front because having good orcs raises lots of moral questions which may add more moral ambiguity than you really want, unless you especially like grimdark.

Quote from: jhkim;811374One aspect is that orcs are considered more like "mooks", whereas drow are more sophisticated bad guys.

Quote from: jibbajibba;811375Orcs, like goblins, are all bad or killing their babies and setting light to their warrens/dens becomes problematic.

I guess that's where it stymied me... because in the majority of games I've played either there aren't any orcs at all or they're painted in shades of gray and ARE a viable PC race... such as in Earthdawn.
I was missing the element of D&D-think.

Quote from: Mr. Kent;811380I would've played an orc, but it wasn't an option in the game we were playing. I don't think a lot of games (least old-school ones) have full orc as an option. Anyway, I loved my half-orc thief lady, so I mostly go for half-orcs out of nostalgia now.

Neither Orc nor Half-Orc are an option in core DCC so that's why I wondered why the guy was asking for a house-ruled Half-Orc... why not a house-ruled Orc... if he wanted to play the large/brutal/primitive stereotype and DCC has no Good/Evil alignment... just Law/Chaos.

Quote from: Simlasa;811268Why half-orc? They're still visually non-human so likely to suffer prejudice... likely from both purebreed races. Is there some widespread concept of half-orcs I'm not tuned into?

Why wouldn't you play one because they'd be fun to role play? Big, tough, and probably misunderstood by both orcs and humans. Still, they can often mingle with both, and have keen insights into both.

A half orc good guy might well be able to penetrate enemy lines as its conceivable that a half orc might be a "force of darkness"; a human barbarian wouldn't be able to do that.

... because there are people out there -- even D&D players -- who are more into roleplaying than in designing characters for maximum tactical advantage.

Quote from: Lynn;811392Why wouldn't you play one because they'd be fun to role play? Big, tough, and probably misunderstood by both orcs and humans. Still, they can often mingle with both, and have keen insights into both.

Big and tough could also just be a large Human warrior/barbarian... or a straight up Orc (overlooking the 'all orcs are evil' element)... but the other part makes sense to me, as a motivation to play a loner PC trying to find his way in a world that doesn't want him.
Still, I'm thinking that the other comments here are right, that it's basically a way to play a 'good' orc without contradicting the implied D&D setting.

Players could pick Orc as a race in 3.5, yes?

AD&D and 2e both opened up options for playing regular orcs as PCs.

And sometimes theyve been depicted as not all that different from humans even in AD&D. At other times they seem to be their own fractious culture that just seems to love a good brawl. Sometimes they come across as slightly advanced cave men. Really depends on who is writing today.

Pretty much like everything else. Depends on the writer.

Warhammer just distilled that onto the sum total of what an orc is. They love to fight and understand little else.

In the early campaign I played with Jan and the gang way back orcs were depicted as having more variety. Its just that you tended to run into the evil ones alot because they were the ones running around causing trouble.

Quote from: Ravenswing;811394... because there are people out there -- even D&D players -- who are more into roleplaying than in designing characters for maximum tactical advantage.

My original assumption was that there probably WAS some tactical advantage to taking a Half-Orc. That the choice was primarily min-max related.
Such as:

Quote from: Lynn;811392A half orc good guy might well be able to penetrate enemy lines as its conceivable that a half orc might be a "force of darkness"; a human barbarian wouldn't be able to do that.

And this from a random D&D wiki that googled up when I searched 'D&D orc PCs?':
"Here's what they're supposed to be: Half-Orcs have the smarts of a human and the strength of an Orc."

Quote from: Simlasa;811396Players could pick Orc as a race in 3.5, yes?

Well, not in the Player's Handbook. As I understood it, they were supported but only as a relatively exotic option that allowed you to play just about any suitable monster as a PC, from gargoyle to minotaur.

Tunnels and Trolls never cared, so they have orcs who are as good or bad as any other species, if culturally a little more feisty! It avoids having the half orc as rape thing.

I liked how 13th Age actually said that orcs are not an actual species, they are a magical cultural effect when humans (or maybe other humanoids) face terrible conditions, war, crisis etc.. they start turning into orcs as their civilised traits fade. Works well in a magic soaked fantasy setting and again avoids the rape thing.

D&D 5e simply addressed it head on, some orcs and humans get on and have kids, sometimes rape happens. Which was fine and adult and means that good orcs must be possible, even if the culture tends to the 'bad side'

RuneQuest Glorantha solved the whole "greenskinned men who are monstrous' thing by making the trolls, trollkin, cave trolls etc. fill the niche, with a fully developed culture and their own morals. In fact, if you want to you can port the whole Glorantha troll pak into a D&D game and rename them orcs, goblins, ogres etc..

Quote from: Simlasa;811388I guess that's where it stymied me... because in the majority of games I've played either there aren't any orcs at all or they're painted in shades of gray and ARE a viable PC race... such as in Earthdawn.
I was missing the element of D&D-think.

That's kinda' how I've always thought of it. I have a half-orc cleric waiting in the wings for my group's current campaign in case my gunslinger's ticket gets punched, and I basically just plan to play him like an ork (including the gahad, which is one of my favorite little touches from Earthdawn).

Quote from: tzunder;811475I liked how 13th Age actually said that orcs are not an actual species, they are a magical cultural effect when humans (or maybe other humanoids) face terrible conditions, war, crisis etc.. they start turning into orcs as their civilised traits fade. Works well in a magic soaked fantasy setting and again avoids the rape thing.

Hmm, I like that.  Now that I know there's at least one thing good in 13th Age, I may take a closer look.  It's like a magical/cosmological version of Howard's Evolution/De-Evolution cycle, where cultures of men rise and then fall back into barbarism and maybe all the way back to apedom.

Quote from: Simlasa;811268I saw someone on G+ asking for a half-orc write-up for DCC.
This got me thinking about why someone might want to play a half-orc... but I didn't come up with much.

Since the guy asking was looking for unseen/unofficial rules (and looking to make up his own if he didn't find any) I can't assume it's just because of some precious rules/mechanics bonus.
 
It seems to me that if you wanted to run a strong/brutal character you could go with a plain old fighter and play him as a barbarian.
Or, if you like orcs go for a purebred/vatbred one... with all the social pariah baggage that might come with it.
Why half-orc? They're still visually non-human so likely to suffer prejudice... likely from both purebreed races. Is there some widespread concept of half-orcs I'm not tuned into?
Is it because playing a straight orc would just lead to too much trouble?

I don't get it, any thoughts?

I like half-breeds. They afford an immediate and obvious hint of backstory which can be extrapolated upon - or not - according to the demands of play, and they generally have some sort of interesting mechanical aspect to boot. In AD&D/OSRIC, for instance, I quite like the concept of the Cleric/Assassin and I'd like to muck around with that, see how it plays and what I can do with it.

My first half-orc was rolled for a third edition group where I (as the only experienced player in a group of newbies) was asked to "take the cleric bullet" by the DM, who felt that a competently-played healer/second wave fighter would be necessary to hold the others together. The half-orc was a good mechanical fit (no Wis penalty and quite good in a scrap) and I liked the idea of this grumpy, slightly monstrous-looking priest being packed off to supervise a bunch of wet-behind-the-ears adventurers. It all felt a bit Labyrinth.

I also tend to play the token evil PC when I can find someone else to take over DM duties, so I figure I might as well play an 'evil' race - and drow are overdone.

Quote from: tzunder;811475I liked how 13th Age actually said that orcs are not an actual species, they are a magical cultural effect when humans (or maybe other humanoids) face terrible conditions, war, crisis etc.. they start turning into orcs as their civilised traits fade. Works well in a magic soaked fantasy setting and again avoids the rape thing.

I like that.
My own approach to orcs, when I've had them in a setting, is to say they're created by wizards... a kind of chimera... not a real 'race' and usually without sexual organs... so generally not capable of breeding. But still playable as PCs.
Beastmen/broo/chaos mutants are my preference for the raping/pillaging monsters who leave halfbreeds wherever they roam.

Quote from: Omega;811417Warhammer just distilled that onto the sum total of what an orc is. They love to fight and understand little else.

I kinda prefer 40k's "biological combat robot", "galactic immune system" take on them - you can't get rid of them, they can bootstrap their entire society from just one spore, you can't develop an intersteller society without being able to see them off, they can't be corrupted because they've already got everything they want, but they can't take over anything long-term because they can't co-operate that well - but yeah, GW do good greenskins.

Quote from: Ladybird;811730I kinda prefer 40k's "biological combat robot", "galactic immune system" take on them - you can't get rid of them, they can bootstrap their entire society from just one spore, you can't develop an intersteller society without being able to see them off, they can't be corrupted because they've already got everything they want, but they can't take over anything long-term because they can't co-operate that well - but yeah, GW do good greenskins.

Spores?

Quote from: Randaconda;811742Spores?

Ork biology got thoroughly detailed in GorkaMorka.

40k Orks continually give off spores, which embed themselves in the ground and can pick up on the Ork psychic field. If they can't detect any orkoids near enough, they grow into fungus and give off more spores; as the colony increases, it will produce Snotlings to tend the spores, then Gretchin to start building stuff, and then full-on Orks when there's enough around to support them.

Orks that get old enough go off to die somewhere, giving their last batch of spores a great environment to grow in.

Quote from: Ladybird;811751Ork biology got thoroughly detailed in GorkaMorka.

40k Orks continually give off spores, which embed themselves in the ground and can pick up on the Ork psychic field. If they can't detect any orkoids near enough, they grow into fungus and give off more spores; as the colony increases, it will produce Snotlings to tend the spores, then Gretchin to start building stuff, and then full-on Orks when there's enough around to support them.

Orks that get old enough go off to die somewhere, giving their last batch of spores a great environment to grow in.

Oh, right. Thank you, not familiar with much Warhammer stuff. Sounds pretty interesting.

Quote from: tzunder;811475I liked how 13th Age actually said that orcs are not an actual species, they are a magical cultural effect when humans (or maybe other humanoids) face terrible conditions, war, crisis etc.. they start turning into orcs as their civilised traits fade. Works well in a magic soaked fantasy setting and again avoids the rape thing.

  I need to recheck my copies of 13th Age material; I hadn't picked up on all of that. I knew that orcs weren't 'natural' and that half-orcs were likewise a spontaneous reaction (and so are half-elves, of a different sort).

  This approach to orcs actually works well with Tolkien's original concept combined with some of his musings about how Morgoth had disseminated his power throughout Middle-Earth.

  One variation I've considered takes a similar approach combined with the Professor's musings on orcs as 'uplifted' beasts--orcs are the product of a magical mutation plague that converts animals to programmed soldiers of a dark power. The 'common orc' is typically created from a mixture of ape, bear and/or boar stock; gnolls are what you get when hyenas, jackals and other canine species are infected.

   Half-orcs? The plague can jump the sapient/nonsapient divide to infect humanoids, but they retain their rational souls and free will.

Generally speaking, in any game where I think I could theoretically want half-orcs (that is to say, a world where orcs weren't just irredeemably evil), I would just rather allow for PC Orcs instead (or goblins!).

Quote from: Simlasa;811268I saw someone on G+ asking for a half-orc write-up for DCC.
This got me thinking about why someone might want to play a half-orc... but I didn't come up with much.

Since the guy asking was looking for unseen/unofficial rules (and looking to make up his own if he didn't find any) I can't assume it's just because of some precious rules/mechanics bonus.
 
It seems to me that if you wanted to run a strong/brutal character you could go with a plain old fighter and play him as a barbarian.
Or, if you like orcs go for a purebred/vatbred one... with all the social pariah baggage that might come with it.
Why half-orc? They're still visually non-human so likely to suffer prejudice... likely from both purebreed races. Is there some widespread concept of half-orcs I'm not tuned into?
Is it because playing a straight orc would just lead to too much trouble?

I don't get it, any thoughts?

The biggest advantage to playing a half-orc in 1E is that PC half-orcs are assumed to be from the 10% that pass for humans. So unless or until their parentage becomes known, human communities will consider them human. When I play them, I assume the characters don't want anyone to know about their family trees.

As a DM, I had one noble who was a half-orc hell bent on keeping his biological daddy's identity secret, since if word got out that mommy had carnal knowledge with an orc, he would be declared a bastard and the knives would come out for him. He looked human, but his mother had a box of love letters to her orcish beau that the PCs found. At which point they extorted money and favors from him lest they make the letters public. This led to a long series of assassination attempts and other skulduggery as the blackmailers and their victim tried to screw over the other.

Quote from: Randy;811767Oh, right. Thank you, not familiar with much Warhammer stuff. Sounds pretty interesting.

For an Ork, running into battle to bleed and possibly die is a reproductive act. Yes, for Warhammer Orks, fighting is sex!

Quote from: Doctor Jest;814241For an Ork, running into battle to bleed and possibly die is a reproductive act. Yes, for Warhammer Orks, fighting is sex!

I always found that stupid.

I think that only applies to the 40k orks? The 40k orks are made of distilled goofball.

Quote from: Omega;814658I think that only applies to the 40k orks? The 40k orks are made of distilled goofball.

I don't know for certain, not enough of a Warhammer fanatic.  In my WFRP campaign I certainly wouldn't have used that, but then again I never had any orcs show up then.

Why half-orcs?

From a mechanical design standpoint, orcs are often designed to fulfill their classic role as opponents, which means their stats are internally unbalanced as PCs.

Even if a +4 strength, +2 Con, -2 Int, Wis and Cha comes out at a lower total stat bonus than the traditional PC races, it is not hard to see why this stat distribution is seen as problematic at many tables.

Introducing half-orcs allows players to play "almost" orcs, that are mechanically in line with other PC races without inconsistency between PCs and NPCs and the advantage of keeping orcs bestial in their mechanical portrayal.


From a background perspective, there are two big reasons I can see:

The first is very similar to the mechanical reason.

If you want your orcs to be truly bestial, always CE monsters, the half-orc allows you a backdoor to include sympathetic orcish PCs and NPCs and fill the, in D&D, uncovered role of a brutish PC race, without whitewashing the entirety of orcs in your setting or introducing another entire humanoid race that is "orcs, but not orcs".

The other reason is that some people just seem to like playing half- and crossbreeds. I sure don't, but I also just as sure had players that played various crossbreeds almost exclusively.

Just look at the lasting popularity of half-elves, that never ever added anything to the worlds and tables of D&D than "Hey, look, they are half elf, half human!"

Then lets have a look at all the other crossbreed PC races of various stripes we have gotten in D&D through the decades: Tieflings, genasi, aasimar from planescape, shifter, changeling, kalashtar from Eberron, half-dwarfes, half-giants from Darksun, half-ogres, fucking dhampyrs, half-dragons and now dragonborn. I propably left out a lot of options.

And often these are a fuckton more popular than similar, but original races. I bet you, an almost identical race to dragonborn that doesn't look like a mandragon and wasn't implied to actually be some form of crossbreed would be much less popular. Similarly, if I made a book that included player races for githyanki, githzerai and a mechanically weaker half-gith, a fuckton of people would propably play the half-gith.

Quote from: Omega;814658I think that only applies to the 40k orks? The 40k orks are made of distilled goofball.

Originally, it was a 40k only thing and even there, only since around third edition and Gorka-Morka. It was later ported into Warhammer Fantasy.

This is all in the light of GWs general stance on canon and consistency, which basically says that GW doesn't give a crap about either. This drives self declared background sages and fluff nazis up the wall, which is a minor reason why I like that stance so much.

The main reason being that it makes using the background as one sees fit in home campaigns of the wargames and RPGs that much easier.

Quote from: Gold Roger;815214And often these are a fuckton more popular than similar, but original races. I bet you, an almost identical race to dragonborn that doesn't look like a mandragon and wasn't implied to actually be some form of crossbreed would be much less popular.

Didn't the 4th edition Player's Guide list "want to play a character that looks like a dragon" in the reasons to play a Dragonborn section of the race description?

Also, I think you are completely correct.

Quote from: Simlasa;811268I saw someone on G+ asking for a half-orc write-up for DCC.
This got me thinking about why someone might want to play a half-orc...

I don't get it, any thoughts?

My question would be why does someone want to play a half-orc in DCC? The system core is pretty explicitly anti orc, goblin, kobold..... they do throw a couple of examples in the monster section right after they implore you to change them up.

I haven't seen any published adventures featuring orbs for DCC either.

As a home brew  campaign with race as class I would suspect mechanical advantages.

But probably just re-skinning the fighter class would get the same effect.

That might be as simple as carrying over the wrong setting expectations from one game or setting to another.

"I want to play a half orc."
"There are no orcs in Dragonlance, so No half orcs."
"But I want to play a half orc! I...um... fell out of a spelljamming ship... yeah..."
DM can work with the player, or stand firm and say no. Choose something else.

We ran into that from the opposite direction in Dragon Storm. Everyone, except orcs and my Vorn, were shapechangers, actually some fantasy critter. But we had one player who wanted to play a straight up human. Not a dragon or Werewolf human. That did not fit the theme. But Sue introduced later a flaw called Denial. Which if you took it, meant you were stuck in your human, elf, or dwarf form and could not change because you refused to believe you were a shifter.

Quote from: jibbajibba;811375Yup.

Drow have intelligence and choice. They choose to be bad and so can choose to be good.
Orcs, like goblins, are all bad or killing their babies and setting light to their warrens/dens becomes problematic.

It is worth taking into account though that for both of those races a large part of why they are evil is because there god tells them to be evil. The orcs are probably more likely to be evil when separated from that influence anyway then the drow are but its still something to take into consideration.

Quote from: jhkim;811432Well, not in the Player's Handbook. As I understood it, they were supported but only as a relatively exotic option that allowed you to play just about any suitable monster as a PC, from gargoyle to minotaur.

savage species yes. But its not really that exotic it is the only creature without a level adjustment that is not already in the players handbook (there are ones in other books but im sticking to the core books and savage species here) (well there are goblins and kobolds but they are below average power and there are also the other type of elf). Although i think the stat requirements were given for it in the monster manual anyway although that may have been added in for 3.5.

Quote from: Gold Roger;815214Why half-orcs?

From a mechanical design standpoint, orcs are often designed to fulfill their classic role as opponents, which means their stats are internally unbalanced as PCs.

Even if a +4 strength, +2 Con, -2 Int, Wis and Cha comes out at a lower total stat bonus than the traditional PC races, it is not hard to see why this stat distribution is seen as problematic at many tables.

Introducing half-orcs allows players to play "almost" orcs, that are mechanically in line with other PC races without inconsistency between PCs and NPCs and the advantage of keeping orcs bestial in their mechanical portrayal.

well as i mentioned above the orc has a +0 level adjustment so im going to have to disagree with you on that point im sure the design team knew what they were doing.

Of course that may not be the case in dcc but as i understand it dcc is a osr game and i dont think the power level of orcs would have changed much between the red box and 3.5

Quote from: Omega;814658I think that only applies to the 40k orks? The 40k orks are made of distilled goofball.

40K orks are a species of fungi. Since they reproduce by "sporing", which I guess might occur when they are blown up by Space Marine weapons, that might be the origin of that idea.

Warhammer Fantasy Orcs are not related to their 40K counterpoints, except in culture and religion. They are pretty much "standard" D&D type orcs, although its more likely the modern gamer concept of orcs as a primitive, shamanic culture of green-skinned barbaric creatures actually owes far more to Warhammer fantasy than D&D.

I do wonder how much the elder scrolls series has to do with that image as well probably not a whole lot but its something that allows for orc characters with ease.

Quote from: TristramEvans;816577Warhammer Fantasy Orcs are not related to their 40K counterpoints, except in culture and religion. They are pretty much "standard" D&D type orcs, although its more likely the modern gamer concept of orcs as a primitive, shamanic culture of green-skinned barbaric creatures actually owes far more to Warhammer fantasy than D&D.

Not really. Even early on D&D was showing orcs as not being allways evil kill mongers. Alignment is a guide, not a set in stone thing. (usually.) Orcs and Drow both have obsure good aligned gods. 2e later took it further and opened up all sorts of usually evil races for play as whatever alignment you wanted.

Warhammer presented orcs as brute marauders and not much else for a time and then evolved them over time.

WHFRPG presented orcs thus "They are repulsive monsters who love inflicting pain, and delight in cruelty and slaughter." Games Workshop version from the mid 80s.

Quote from: Omega;816611Not really. Even early on D&D was showing orcs as not being allways evil kill mongers. Alignment is a guide, not a set in stone thing. (usually.) Orcs and Drow both have obsure good aligned gods. 2e later took it further and opened up all sorts of usually evil races for play as whatever alignment you wanted.

Warhammer presented orcs as brute marauders and not much else for a time and then evolved them over time.

WHFRPG presented orcs thus "They are repulsive monsters who love inflicting pain, and delight in cruelty and slaughter." Games Workshop version from the mid 80s.

Alignment really has nothing to do with what I said though. I still remember when D&d orcs looked like Gammorean guards.

One with orc blood who is unable to 'pass' as human is likely to get slaughtered out of hand, whereas a half-orc as Mr Gygax described in AD&D has more interesting problems.

Quote from: TristramEvans;816615Alignment really has nothing to do with what I said though. I still remember when D&d orcs looked like Gammorean guards.

Pink porky orcs! There's a firm in Britain that makes them (and old-style demons & devils, and a clear resin gelatinous cube ...).

Quote from: Phillip;816856Pink porky orcs! There's a firm in Britain that makes them (and old-style demons & devils, and a clear resin gelatinous cube ...).

Otherworld minis? Their stuff is gorgeous.

Quote from: TristramEvans;816860Otherworld minis? Their stuff is gorgeous.

oh its a mini company i thought he was talking about movie props and was about to go look for movies with gelatinous cubes in them