TheRPGSite

New here, looong-time lurker.

I love GURPS. Unapologetically.
I never get to play it though so others have more informed opinions than I do. I am currently occasionally running a Fantasy Trip adaptation of Keep on the Borderlands for a small group of (mostly) newer players. My hope is someday to transition to GURPS.

I still somehow suspect or hope that a 4e revision is under way or a new marketing approach for the system, to refresh the client base w younger customers so it can continue.

Cosmetically, I love the look and feel and layout of 3rd Edition Basic. It feels warm and cozy and makes you want to delve in and discover its secrets. 4th edition lacks this appeal, reflecting the labcoat scientist that permeates Sean's being - but it's obviously more comprehensive. He and the team did a super job with the huge task they had to accomplish. The hardcover books in the series I must say, look amazing on the shelf and are still all fun to read.

Without the solo and Caravan adventure built in, 4e becomes anathema to a new convert. Like...how does this all fit?? GURPS is magic in its simplicity of mechanics. Once people see it, they seldom find anything else satisfactory.

One thing I also liked about 3e was the Random Character generator (but I'm a super fan of playing random everything, thank you EasyGurps). Make a human character for any genre and GO. Sometimes, this is the best way for a GM to get a GURPS group going. Roll 'em up and do a one-shot. Once they LIKE playing, they'll want and enjoy putting the time into a character. But, GURPS can be deadly sometimes esp for beginners - so random allows for generation without too much investment should it all go south.

Also, solo gaming is really taking off as a hobby of its own now.

So 4e lost a lot of "ease of entry".
I love DF but don't love it.

WHY CALL IT DUNGEON FANTASY IF THAT LINE ALREADY EXISTS??
You just created a good degree of confusion.

Why the 250 point character start? Starting off as super warriors without earning it isn't fun. I guess Sean wanted to show off the capabilities of the system. His sarcastic or irreverent tone talking down to the genre makes it an annoying read. If reaching newer D& D players was the goal with this box, why act as if it's all dumb but hey here you go? These players haven't been around since the 80's.

But I'll take the presentation and distillation. Very nice.

I feel it can be done even "more" basic than DF, and without as much material cost. Look at the legs of the old box sets. Limited information and options, in a cardboard box. We are all still enamored with them all these years later. They were easy to implement.


I was wondering if it is possible for GURPS  to do a universal "basic box" with a solo.
4E is "complete", but just needs a better point of entry, and less clinical approach and layout. Go back to warm and fuzzy 3e style.

Maybe TFT could be repacked as a basic fantasy start for GURPS (which it is, really) It's a much faster entry and start up.

Welcome to the Site!

We've had many discussions on Gurps, on some of the exact topics you brought up. This thread from 2021 might be relevant:

Quote(Phil Masters) basically says there will not be a 5th edition for Gurps, unless the RPG market drastically changes, and the popularity for Gurps increases. It's not really a surprise, but hearing it from Phil makes it real.

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/there-will-not-be-a-gurps-5th-edition/

I think Phil has moved on from SJG since then. I haven't checked their forums for a while, so I don't know the current status of the game or the company.

Also, this one specifically on DF:

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/any-dungeon-fantasy-fans-here/

So, here's my best advice.  Get GURPS Lite, Characters, and Banestorm or Fantasy in .pdf.  Banestorm has more stuff but, personally, I think the template builds in Fantasy are more reasonable.

Print out Lite, the magic rules and templates from Characters, and some related templates from Banestorm or Fantasy.  Give your players the booklet you've created and have them build 100 point characters from the contents.  That'll give you characters well suited to playing The Keep On The Borderlands without introducing or allowing a bunch of stuff you don't want them to ask for or even concieve of.

No, that's not a particularly slick solution.  Yes SJG could do it with a minimum of effort but they want you to buy Characters, Campaigns, Magic, Fantasy, and Bane Storm, so it's not really in their best interests.

You could also purchase The Dungeon Fantasy rpg and one supplement, "Delvers to Go" I think, maybe, there's one with lower points templates.

Why not stick to The Fantasy Trip? It's the superior system, that's why they brought it back and largely dropped GURPS

Thank you.:)
And thank youfor the input.

Phil Masters just released a product, The Reptile Races , over at SJG and was on the forums, so he is still at it.

As for what to do, I'm a "RPG collector"/rules reader. I have been a GURPS collector for some time and have managed to get great copies of most of the 4e hard covers from the 2000s, 3e and 2nd e,  many source books, PDFs and the DF box set (with delvers, 🙂).
That's what I would likely use so great advice. Also have TFT and various supplements.

So I have everything I need. I know you guys have been around the horse on this topic. It's a tough one to resolve, what direction the game should go. I think most people would like to see "a direction", other than existing. I do see their point with market saturation, D&D dominance, etc. What would it avail as 4e is so complete?

Quote from: JeremyR on October 01, 2024, 03:33:07 AMWhy not stick to The Fantasy Trip? It's the superior system, that's why they brought it back and largely dropped GURPS

You aren't wrong. I love The Fantasy Trip. We are having fun with it and even just playing Melee and Wizard on the table is great for an evening of fun.

I solo game with a TFT clone, Dark City Games adventures.

I'd like SJ to put out a 3rd edition TFT with, like 4e ironically, better layout and organization, bunch of Hexagram stuff added.

 I guess the increased crunch of GURPS is that siren song.

Quote from: doomfarer1 on October 01, 2024, 06:02:01 AMThank you.:)
And thank youfor the input.

Phil Masters just released a product, The Reptile Races , over at SJG and was on the forums, so he is still at it.

As for what to do, I'm a "RPG collector"/rules reader. I have been a GURPS collector for some time and have managed to get great copies of most of the 4e hard covers from the 2000s, 3e and 2nd e,  many source books, PDFs and the DF box set (with delvers, 🙂).
That's what I would likely use so great advice. Also have TFT and various supplements.

So I have everything I need. I know you guys have been around the horse on this topic. It's a tough one to resolve, what direction the game should go. I think most people would like to see "a direction", other than existing. I do see their point with market saturation, D&D dominance, etc. What would it avail as 4e is so complete?

It is exactly the "completeness" of 4E that is such a barrier to new players or to old players like myself that don't have the time to go in and essentially edit a book to contain just what is desired for a given campaign. I think a series of targeted books based on the core rules for each genre without all the other stuff that isn't applicable would be great.

"It is exactly the "completeness" of 4E that is such a barrier to new players or to old players like myself that don't have the time to go in and essentially edit a book to contain just what is desired for a given campaign. I think a series of targeted books based on the core rules for each genre without all the other stuff that isn't applicable would be great."

Right. That is what we all want.

I would say DFRPG "powered by" GURPS Box set would appeal. It's quite comprehensive and easy to put into practice. But I would like to see do something even more "basic" for low-skilled characters, there's less to keep track of for new recruits. Also the tone of the writing in DFRPG is a complete turn-off.

I know why he made it 250 pts, as 5e D&D is high-powered. But it isn't nearly as fun as fearing for your life.

Could a "basic" box set still be universal? Pick 3 -5 genres. Many advantages carry over or color code them in the text for that genre if specific. 100 skills total. Color coded. GM guide. 100 monsters. 2 adventures and a solo. Map and counters. Then Get it into local stores Men in Black!

From the other side of the fence, standalone books don't seem to be a cure-all. Hero Games did three for 6th Edition HERO System--Champions Complete, Fantasy Hero Complete, and Western Hero--and they seem to have achieved modest success at best. And while SJG has advantages that Hero Games doesn't, they have the problem that it's probably hard to justify devoting more than minimal resources to GURPS when Munchkin is so much more successful.

Quote from: David Johansen on September 30, 2024, 10:02:33 PMSo, here's my best advice.  Get GURPS Lite, Characters, and Banestorm or Fantasy in .pdf.  Banestorm has more stuff but, personally, I think the template builds in Fantasy are more reasonable.

Print out Lite, the magic rules and templates from Characters, and some related templates from Banestorm or Fantasy.  Give your players the booklet you've created and have them build 100 point characters from the contents. 

*snip*

You could also purchase The Dungeon Fantasy rpg and one supplement, "Delvers to Go" I think, maybe, there's one with lower points templates.

I'll have to check those out.   I've always been interested in trying GURPS but haven't found an intro game at my local FLGS to test it out since I've stopped going to conventions.  The depth and breadth of the rules have in a way prevented me from just casually picking it up.  I'm unfamiliar with The Dungeon Fantasy so will have to check that out as well.  Is it also a 3d6 point buy system?

Okay RNGm, if you just want a look at the rules download GURPS Lite.  It's free and it's actually pretty comprehensive.  Not the kind of nerfed, cut down quickstart you might be expecting.  There's also a free solitaire adventure, "All In A Night's Work" and a GM'd adventure "Caravan To Ain Erris".

For a complete starter, GURPS Girl Genius, GURPS Vorkosigiann, and GURPS Disc World are all stand alone in one book games.   Dungeon Fantasy is, what the author calls GURPS Medium which aparently means half a page of armour weights by size and body part.

Quote from: David Johansen on October 02, 2024, 09:41:47 AMOkay RNGm, if you just want a look at the rules download GURPS Lite.  It's free and it's actually pretty comprehensive.  Not the kind of nerfed, cut down quickstart you might be expecting.  There's also a free solitaire adventure, "All In A Night's Work" and a GM'd adventure "Caravan To Ain Erris".

Gurps Lite 4E doesn't have any magic, so it's pretty useless for fantasy. At least the fantasy games most people want to play.

Gurps Lite 3E does have magic, albeit only 2 pages with 14 spells.

Quote from: doomfarer1 on September 30, 2024, 06:04:48 PMI love GURPS. Unapologetically.
I never get to play it though

Much is said by this.

Run a game. Then you'll have answers to your questions, and many more you haven't asked yet.

It says so much. I take solace in running TFT. I could easily get them into GURPS but i went with faster simpler for this beginner group, and I hadn't run a game in a very long time.

Would soloing count?

What are your opinions on these lofty issues Kyle?

Also, Could a boxed universal Basic starter set be viable? After all it is a main selling point.

Quote from: Aglondir on October 02, 2024, 08:25:04 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on October 02, 2024, 09:41:47 AMOkay RNGm, if you just want a look at the rules download GURPS Lite.  It's free and it's actually pretty comprehensive.  Not the kind of nerfed, cut down quickstart you might be expecting.  There's also a free solitaire adventure, "All In A Night's Work" and a GM'd adventure "Caravan To Ain Erris".

Gurps Lite 4E doesn't have any magic, so it's pretty useless for fantasy. At least the fantasy games most people want to play.

Gurps Lite 3E does have magic, albeit only 2 pages with 14 spells.

I appreciate the suggestion but the magic would be key.  Obviously I could house rule in magic from the mainline GURPS fantasy book but that somewhat defeats the purpose of using the lite rules variant.   One reason the dungeon fantasy piqued my interest  is that it seems like an all-in-one purchase for a fantasy GURPS.   I have zero idea though if it's actually lighter than normal current edition GURPS let alone fully in the rules light category.   When I was younger, crunch was king but in my middle age I just prefer elegance that gives you 80% of the feel/effect with 20% of the rules.  YMMV.

Quote from: RNGm on October 03, 2024, 10:03:41 AM

Quote from: Aglondir on October 02, 2024, 08:25:04 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on October 02, 2024, 09:41:47 AMOkay RNGm, if you just want a look at the rules download GURPS Lite.  It's free and it's actually pretty comprehensive.  Not the kind of nerfed, cut down quickstart you might be expecting.  There's also a free solitaire adventure, "All In A Night's Work" and a GM'd adventure "Caravan To Ain Erris".

Gurps Lite 4E doesn't have any magic, so it's pretty useless for fantasy. At least the fantasy games most people want to play.

Gurps Lite 3E does have magic, albeit only 2 pages with 14 spells.

I appreciate the suggestion but the magic would be key.  Obviously I could house rule in magic from the mainline GURPS fantasy book but that somewhat defeats the purpose of using the lite rules variant.   One reason the dungeon fantasy piqued my interest  is that it seems like an all-in-one purchase for a fantasy GURPS.   I have zero idea though if it's actually lighter than normal current edition GURPS let alone fully in the rules light category.   When I was younger, crunch was king but in my middle age I just prefer elegance that gives you 80% of the feel/effect with 20% of the rules.  YMMV.

The DFRPG box set is a well-put together product that is about as straightforward as you can manage with the system. You'll love it. Get it physical w PDF and you can game for years right out of the box.

If I remember right there was a complete in one book GURPS Myth based on the crpg in third edition.

Is there a market for a rules-lite 3d6 roll-under, point-buy, low HP fantasy game?

I guess not, without marketing behind it.

That's the Fantasy Trip. And I wish SJ had rolled out a massive campaign for it in game stores around the country. He honored the old layout and organization in it, which I can understand, but it needs a better, clearer presentation format. Look at ShadowDark. Its format is so awesome and simple and she built a massive following before launching. So we at least know a straightforward game can be successful.




Newer gamers don't know the thrill of deadly gaming, although OSR has been doing pretty well so who knows.

Quote from: doomfarer1 on October 02, 2024, 09:40:51 PMWhat are your opinions on these lofty issues Kyle?

Run a game of GURPS4e. Then you will have experience by which to form your own opinion.

A long time ago, I was a "Man in Black." I don't know if they still have the scheme now - you were supposed to go out to game stores and run games and promote SJG stuff, if you did it well they'd give you Warehouse 23 credit. They kept questioning everyone's submissions as to having run games so most of the MIBs I knew left.

Anyway, the first thing I found was that absolutely everyone needed a pre-generated character. It's simply not viable for a casual pickup game - the entire session would be their making their character, not getting to play it. This also meant that in a regular campaign with 3-6 players I had to fudge things to keep characters alive. If it takes 15 minutes to make a character, people aren't usually worried if they lose one after 3-12 hours of play. But if it takes three hours to make a character...

As with character generation, so with the rest of play. Everything had to be fudged over or streamlined to keep things moving. Following all the rules just made things too fucking slow.

After well over 100 sessions I gave up and ran other stuff instead.

There won't be a 5th edition, as mentioned above.

I must add this is their stance on Roe v. Wade, for whom it may concern.

https://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/July_08_2022/Roe_v_Wade

I played GURPS for decades, I like 4e better than 3e but there are still some obvious flaws (e.g., the cost of will/perception/charisma is too low) and too many fiddly bits, although it would easy to make an easier version with "bang" skills plus GURPS Lite.

250 points is definitely too much, 150ish was enough for our games.

If you stick to the Dungeon Fantasy templates they do speed up character creation.  Personally I prefer very tight pregens as you don't need to look up weapon stats and buy equipment at the table.

I do think the short lifespan of 100 point characters is probably why Kyle Arron had a character death problem.  But there is stuff in Dungeon Fantasy that can really kill 250 point characters.  And it's GURPS so 3 of just about anything can kill one character.

I often introduce new players with a Harry Potter / Hogwarts campaign.  10 point characters, 7 Strength base, Magical Aptitude 0 manditory. 

Character creation time increases very nearly linear relative to points total.

SJ's RvW article was lamentable. I won't say any more on it.

Luckily I buy most of my stuff via EBay, like all the hardcover books I've collected. However I still do commerce there, I admit. I've supported Douglas Cole's kickstarters too and he's bringing out programmed solo adventures for DFRPG ( and TFT) where you start at a much lower point total.

Yeah if I did have the opportunity to GM a game for players at a store or Con I would just hand out characters or roll them up randomly. I would do this for new players at the house too. Once they play and understand the rules they may survive longer without the hand of GM Providence. And randomness can actually be fun if people are willing to play what's on the sheet.

IF there was a 5th edition and Ms Duffy puts them firmly in woke-land I may have to re-think things but there is always HOW and DCG for TFT and the stuff I already have for GURPS.

This from Sean Punch himself recently on the SJG Forums, under the thread on the new GURPS PDF Power-Ups 10: Skill Trees:

Quote from: Kromm;2538614Yes. One reason why I said "edition 4.1 or whatever" is that points will not have precisely the same value as they currently do if you use this supplement to build your campaign. There will be an exchange rate other than 1:1 in the case of skill-focused characters. Diversified characters will cost more, while with the right trunks, focused ones will cost less. Those who don't care about skills at all will just do what they always do . . . And since these appear in different proportions in different campaigns, the exchange rate in question will be campaign-specific, not system-wide.

Anyway, it's the seed of an idea, given semi-official sanction by virtue of being published. At 20 years of age, Fourth Edition can safely be said to be a "stable release," and can reasonably support some speculation that takes it off in wild directions that might be some writer's idea of Fourth Edition, Revised, or Fifth Edition, or Mirror-Universe Edition, or Kromm's Fever Edition even if Fourth ends up being the Ultimate Edition.

Quote from: Aglondir on September 30, 2024, 09:03:45 PMWelcome to the Site!

We've had many discussions on Gurps, on some of the exact topics you brought up. This thread from 2021 might be relevant:

Quote(Phil Masters) basically says there will not be a 5th edition for Gurps, unless the RPG market drastically changes, and the popularity for Gurps increases. It's not really a surprise, but hearing it from Phil makes it real.

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/there-will-not-be-a-gurps-5th-edition/

I think Phil has moved on from SJG since then. I haven't checked their forums for a while, so I don't know the current status of the game or the company.  They wouldn't give any details and quickly hushed up discussion of the departure after the announcement.

Also, this one specifically on DF:

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/any-dungeon-fantasy-fans-here/

The Phil who is no longer with SJG is former CEO Phil Reed.... replaced with an ultra-woke SJW.  I don't know if Reed left over normal circumestances, or was forced out/left for political reasons.

I've taken a number of stabs at designing a 3d6 game as a GURPS Alternative.  In the end I either try creating a mirror of GURPS or a totally new game that shares some characteristics from a design perspective.

Really I don't think either approach would attract GURPS Fans.  A Cephus Engine equivalent is out of the question as there's no OGL and the language is specific enough you can't really avoid copying it and changing the name of everything kindof defeats the purpose.

Quote from: David Johansen on October 05, 2024, 01:23:54 AMI've taken a number of stabs at designing a 3d6 game as a GURPS Alternative.  In the end I either try creating a mirror of GURPS or a totally new game that shares some characteristics from a design perspective.

Really I don't think either approach would attract GURPS Fans.  A Cephus Engine equivalent is out of the question as there's no OGL and the language is specific enough you can't really avoid copying it and changing the name of everything kindof defeats the purpose.

I gave up trying to create a mirror of Gurps Lite. There's too much drek in the system. Instead, I started from scratch and built my own rules-lite 3d6 roll-under system, which has concepts from Gurps, Hero, D20, 5E, and some of my own stuff. All of the rules are original text, so it's not violating anyone's copyright. But I doubt there's a market for it. Gurps fans will hate it, 5E fans don't like roll-under, and OSR fans don't like point-buy.

My goal is to finish it this year and post it on some design forums for feedback.

Quote from: David Johansen on October 04, 2024, 05:28:57 PMI do think the short lifespan of 100 point characters is probably why Kyle Arron had a character death problem.

I didn't mention how many points the characters were built on.

Quote from: David Johansen on October 04, 2024, 05:28:57 PMIf you stick to the Dungeon Fantasy templates they do speed up character creation.  Personally I prefer very tight pregens as you don't need to look up weapon stats and buy equipment at the table.

I do think the short lifespan of 100 point characters is probably why Kyle Arron had a character death problem.  But there is stuff in Dungeon Fantasy that can really kill 250 point characters.  And it's GURPS so 3 of just about anything can kill one character.

I often introduce new players with a Harry Potter / Hogwarts campaign.  10 point characters, 7 Strength base, Magical Aptitude 0 manditory. 

Character creation time increases very nearly linear relative to points total.

100 points was pretty standard in 3rd edition unless you were playing special ops, supers, or some other high powered genre. There is learning curve for those coming from D&D and similar games who are used to just charging into combat again and again. One of the hardest things for members of our group to adjust to was the deadliness of numbers. A D&D character of medium level can easily handle a half dozen kobold scrubs for example. A GURPS character outnumbered 5 or 6 to 1 even by scrubs is going to likely die.

Quote from: Aglondir on October 05, 2024, 02:14:36 AM

Quote from: David Johansen on October 05, 2024, 01:23:54 AMI've taken a number of stabs at designing a 3d6 game as a GURPS Alternative.  In the end I either try creating a mirror of GURPS or a totally new game that shares some characteristics from a design perspective.

Really I don't think either approach would attract GURPS Fans.  A Cephus Engine equivalent is out of the question as there's no OGL and the language is specific enough you can't really avoid copying it and changing the name of everything kindof defeats the purpose.

I gave up trying to create a mirror of Gurps Lite. There's too much drek in the system. Instead, I started from scratch and built my own rules-lite 3d6 roll-under system, which has concepts from Gurps, Hero, D20, 5E, and some of my own stuff. All of the rules are original text, so it's not violating anyone's copyright. But I doubt there's a market for it.

People who like GURPS but stopped patronizing SJG would be your market.

The problem is that GURPS is primarily a descriptive language.  What each gamer wants from GURPS is different, and thus, whatever you design will not be GURPS enough for any of them.