As a point of reference here is the entire line of DF supplements.

Adventurers, Dungeons, The Next Level, Sages, Allies, 40 Artifacts, Clerics, Treasure Tables, Summoners, Taverns, Power-ups, Ninja, Loadouts, Psi, Henchmen, Wilderness Adventures, Guilds, Power Items, Incantation Magic, Mirror of the Fire Demon Adventure, Dungeon Fantasy Monsters 1, Dungeond Fantasy Monster 2 - Icky Goo, DF Treasures 1 - Glittering Prizes, DF Treasures 2 Epic Treasures.

My favorites are Dungeons, Treasure Tables, Loadouts,  Henchmen, and Mirror of the Fire Demon.

Quote from: estar;919015As a point of reference here is the entire line of DF supplements.

Adventurers, Dungeons, The Next Level, Sages, Allies, 40 Artifacts, Clerics, Treasure Tables, Summoners, Taverns, Power-ups, Ninja, Loadouts, Psi, Henchmen, Wilderness Adventures, Guilds, Power Items, Incantation Magic, Mirror of the Fire Demon Adventure, Dungeon Fantasy Monsters 1, Dungeond Fantasy Monster 2 - Icky Goo, DF Treasures 1 - Glittering Prizes, DF Treasures 2 Epic Treasures.

My favorites are Dungeons, Treasure Tables, Loadouts,  Henchmen, and Mirror of the Fire Demon.

Kind of ironic that the full DF line is over 700 pages by my count, plus of course the Basic Set and any other GURPS books you might want to refer to. That's a lot of rules for a cheeto-munching dungeon crawl...may as well go with Rolemaster Standard System...

Actually, I usually do.  I find it easier to teach people.  The intellectual leap from D&D is less difficult for some reason.

Quote from: Simlasa;918730Yes, I agree. I like GURPS. My question was more of a challenge to the the idea of 'skip to the awesome' being the only style of play supported by the box. I'm still in on it, but knowing it has little or no direct support for low-power play means it will be of questionable use for me.

DF 15 gave us Henchman wich were a lot lower power.  But the goal of the boxed set is to make it simple and playable right out of the box.  So they had to pick 1 starting point rather than several.But you have plenty of room to grow and get better.
And if your used to the system changing point totals for lower or higher powered games is not hard.

Quote from: estar;918795It a boxed set. Seriously that alone warrants trying it as a kickstarter. But in general the purpose of the kickstarter is to find out if there is still is any life left in GURPS.

Plenty of life in GURPS, remember it has monthly product.  This is not to see if GURPS sells but to gauge demand for printed vs. PDF
A lot of people keep clamoring for printed product but making the same book in PDF format is a lot cheaper and faster.  This is SJG testing to see how many of those people asking for printed books are actually willing to pay for them.

Quote from: trechriron;918845Weird. When I read through DF line, I see a lot of contempt for "typical D&D style fantasy". The whole tongue in cheek thing really turned me off of it. Sure, there are silly tropes in the genre (D&D as a genre...), but much of the DF pointers/advice, etc. comes off as insulting. I'm a fan of SJGames and GURPS, I can only imagine what someone new to the fold might feel about it. Unless of course the whole snark/contempt thing is a selling point. Remembering how my storygames friends took to D&D4e and the reasons why, this whole "if you MUST romp around kicking down dungeon doors, killing monsters and taking their stuff - use our hip sleekly designed way of doing it so you can be one of the cool kids!" approach may be spot on.

It just rubbed me the wrong way I guess.

Kromm (the author) has repeatedly stated that computer games were just as much, if not more the inspiration.
Diablo gets mentioned a lot.  Think about how detailed your typical computer game town is vs. the dungeon, or just the whole idea that all those monsters are holed up in a dungeon just waiting for you to come down and slay them.
Its not a slap or demeaning to the genre, its more like laughing at an inside joke.
When I started D&D in 76/77 we wll recognized it but played because it was fun.  D&D was not about rich detailed worlds of wonder, it was about what was behind the next door.
This is what Dungeon Fantasy is aimed at.
Sure you can build on it, but the starting point is all about just rolling dice and killing monsters with your friends.
Its a simpler concept, not a demeaning one.

Quote from: Simlasa;918730Yes, I agree. I like GURPS. My question was more of a challenge to the the idea of 'skip to the awesome' being the only style of play supported by the box. I'm still in on it, but knowing it has little or no direct support for low-power play means it will be of questionable use for me.

Quote from: estar;918795It a boxed set. Seriously that alone warrants trying it as a kickstarter. But in general the purpose of the kickstarter is to find out if there is still is any life left in GURPS.

Quote from: trechriron;918845Weird. When I read through DF line, I see a lot of contempt for "typical D&D style fantasy". The whole tongue in cheek thing really turned me off of it. Sure, there are silly tropes in the genre (D&D as a genre...), but much of the DF pointers/advice, etc. comes off as insulting. I'm a fan of SJGames and GURPS, I can only imagine what someone new to the fold might feel about it. Unless of course the whole snark/contempt thing is a selling point. Remembering how my storygames friends took to D&D4e and the reasons why, this whole "if you MUST romp around kicking down dungeon doors, killing monsters and taking their stuff - use our hip sleekly designed way of doing it so you can be one of the cool kids!" approach may be spot on.

It just rubbed me the wrong way I guess.

Quote from: David Johansen;918897Bane Storm, Infinite Worlds, Vorkosigian, Disc World, and Mars Attacks are all out of the box settings.

The combat system is indeed awesome.  Actually I'm much less thrilled by the character creation.  It's there, it works, but it has any number of niggling issues that annoy me.  I'm not sure what other sub systems you want hyper detailed.  There's Social Engineering and the various Low Tech supplements anyhow.

Powered by GURPS were complete games, most rules lite.
http://www.sjgames.com/poweredbygurps/
That is a decent variety.

Here is the index of all 4th and 3rd edition books
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/

Unless they say Powered By they needed the core rules to play. Most GURPS world books were set up this way.  Rathr than pay for the rules for each setting you bought them separately.
So if I wanted to go from Witch World to Conan to Horseclans to Traveler or InNomanae to IOU to Conspiracy X or Illuminati or Cabal or Banestorm or whatever all I had to do was pay for the core rules ONE TIME and than just buy the setting I was interested in.  And if I wanted to make up my own they had books to help me there too.
I think GURPS Third Edition had more licensed settings than anyone else out there, and you didnt have to pay for the rules all over again for most of them.
It was a higher point of entry for some things (though the core AD&D books were not cheaper) but once you were in the addons were inexpensive.  Even less expensive once they started doing PDF.

However all those options left some people feeling intimidated.  So the series Dungeon Fantasy, Action!, Monster Hunters, and now After The End were made.  Each required the Basic set but gave guidelines on what rules and options to use and what to skip, plus added new stuff to fit the flavor of that line (like a minigame).

This and DIscworld are both back to the Powered by model so streamlined rules and out of the box play are the main points.  But they can still have stuff from the rest of the GURPS line bolted on if you want to, or you can mine them for ideas.
For example I prefer rich detailed fantasy worlds so do not run Dungeon Fantasy.  However a lot of the material I use for ideas and because its the same underlying system its easy for me to use in other settings.

Quote from: The_Shadow;919021.may as well go with Rolemaster Standard System...

First most of it is support. All you really need to save time is Characters and Dungeons and maybe Loadouts.

GURPS is better designed than any version of Rolemaster. Of course that my highly subjective opinion. GURPS problem is  not how it plays. But all the damn lists you have to get through in order to start playing.

Quote from: refplace;919030Plenty of life in GURPS, remember it has monthly product.  This is not to see if GURPS sells but to gauge demand for printed vs. PDF
A lot of people keep clamoring for printed product but making the same book in PDF format is a lot cheaper and faster.  This is SJG testing to see how many of those people asking for printed books are actually willing to pay for them.

Prior to the kickstarter, GURPS publishing catered to the fans. If it attracted a new gamer now and again great but no special effort was made to attract them. Even the planned hardbacks, Discworld and Mars Attack, are meant to cater to a fan base. In those cases the fans of the respective two settings who want to roleplay. Mars Attack more or less is a gonzo product. Discworld is a comedic setting as well but not gonzo in the way Mars Attack is.

This niche approach allowed GURPS to survive as a presumably profitable line. However it also has make GURPS relative rank to other RPGs collapse. It not longer even the leading generic RPG as it share that spot with Savage Worlds and Fate.

Not any of the above lends any confidence that GURPS can make a play for being one of the top 5 RPGs if SJ Games puts in the resource. This kickstarter is a test for the idea that GURPS sales can return to what they were relative to the rest of the industry.

Quote from: refplace;919032Powered by GURPS were complete games, most rules lite.
http://www.sjgames.com/poweredbygurps/
That is a decent variety.

Here is the index of all 4th and 3rd edition books
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/

For my part, I am well aware of all the GURPS books included the powered by lines. All of them are toolkits including the Powered by GURPS lines. The only difference with the Powered by GURPS books is that they are a toolkit for a specific setting or narrow subgenre. Yes it does save time over the core books they are incomplete compared to similar RPGs.  For example GURPS Traveller vs. Traveller (most other editions).

The DF Kickstarter is different is that while it is still GURPS it written as if is a standalone RPGs. Basically is GURPS in the Chaosium complete RPG style instead of the SJ Games toolkit style.

I guess what really irks me is the contrast from what I see GURPS as being capable of, looking at its strengths and comparing it to a LONG list of other games that do what this box set is trying to do. Better.

What appeals to me about GURPS IS the details. It digs in where a lot of other games don't. For me, the details in creating powers, customizing templates, etc. are a big deal. Even better, the focus on culture and language! The possibilities of all those details invested in a setting that utilizes them is exciting. But instead, we get "you should play D&D with GURPS". Which has no appeal to me. D&D5e works for D&D. As does many editions or clones for many people. Why not play to your strengths? Just front-load the work so people can pick it up and play! It would serve as an example of how to do it yourself in addition to showcasing what GURPS is good at.

I believe this is more about the market perception and what can be gained (the money!) vs. the passion of what is being made. Which I feel is unfortunate. When you read GURPS the attention to details doesn't match the "Dungeon Fantasy" approach.

Just my two cents...

I think GURPS would need a killer app, either in the form of a major licence, say Marvel Superheroes or Star Trek to get into the top five these days.  While it's possible to develop and drive a new property, only one in a million would happen to hit the sweet spot and put GURPS back in the top five.  Another possibility would be to grab a number of mid range properties like Robo Cop and Blade Runner and do custom games for them in boxed sets or hard backs to try and bring a wide range of people into the game.  R Talsorian already tried this with FUZION and one could argue that SJG has though they've spaced it out more than the kind of marketing offensive I'm talking about.

In any case being in the top five doesn't necessarily mean profitable.  It could just mean a short hot burn towards the blackhole of bankruptcy.

What people want is something which they can use to just sit down and play. By having a particle physicist write it and trying to appeal to the gearheads, they destroyed it.

I say this as a former "Man In Black" who used to go into game stores and get people to play. It's just too fucking much, which is why they now ask for handouts rather than just writing things and selling them like they used to.

Straightforward point-buy system + worldbooks. This was the successful formula for 20 years or so. It worked so well, they stopped doing it.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;919178What people want is something which they can use to just sit down and play.

To be fair, this is exactly what they are trying to do with the Dungeon Fantasy box set.

QuoteBy having a particle physicist write it and trying to appeal to the gearheads, they destroyed it.

I think 'over listening to the core fans' is perhaps a reasonable criticism. And it's one that many companies have fallen foul of, though that is no excuse. At least they deserve some credit for attempting to reach out to the wider community again, rather than leaving things in a cycle of spiralling down into a smaller and smaller rabid fan base before hitting total collapse as a product.

Quote from: trechriron;919099I guess what really irks me is the contrast from what I see GURPS as being capable of, looking at its strengths and comparing it to a LONG list of other games that do what this box set is trying to do. Better.

Except to do even half of what those other games do in GURPS you have to use the toolkit. And that is the turn off for novices getting into GURPS.

Quote from: trechriron;919099What appeals to me about GURPS IS the details. It digs in where a lot of other games don't. For me, the details in creating powers, customizing templates, etc. are a big deal.

This argument has is bandied about on the SJ Games forum since a bunch of us originally floated the idea as far back as 2008. The GURPS core book still remain in print and available. The elements of the DF RPGs are devired from the core book. What exactly is the issue. Are you saying everything time you want to use GURPS you are going to have the time to employ it as a tool kit? Wouldn't it better to have both? A core book and supplement that functions as a toolkit with all the details, and a boxed set with stuff already created?

As part of my original suggestion I recommended that this format be used for Fantasy, Science Fiction, and Horror. That all three should use as their implied setting the most popular RPG of each of their genre, (D&D, Traveller, and Call of Cthulu). That the Core books still should be supported and sold. That each of these ready to run products should have a handful of product and stop there.

By the time a novice has mined those the full GURPS line should appeal to them. Note by by novice I mean a newcomer to GURPS.

Quote from: trechriron;919099Which has no appeal to me. D&D5e works for D&D. As does many editions or clones for many people. Why not play to your strengths?

They done that with Dungeon Fantasy, Action, and Monster Hunter all lines of focused supplement implementing GURPS for those genres. Along with setting specific products like Discworld, Mars Attacks, Interstellar Wars, Banestorm, and Volkingesen.

Guess what? GURPS still slipped relative other RPGs including other generic RPG. What they were doing wasn't working and doubling down wouldn't have changed a damn thing.

I get that another Dungeon Fantasy D&D style RPG is not appealing to you. Which is why they should do this with the other major genres.

I don't really have any particular expectations for this, but signed on for one simple reason: Ever since I saw the OGRE boxed set I've had a recurring fantasy/fever-dream that someone would create a similarly grand boxed set reboot of OGRE's relative and my favorite game: The Fantasy Trip. That will never happen, and the DF boxed set will not really go to this place in game design space. But, I can't really walk away from what has to be the closest thing to my boxed-set-game dream.

GURPS still exists? I thought it received about as much support as Mission to Mars nowadays.