Quote from: Mostlyjoe;918700Dial your number of starting points back. Don't buy all the items in your starting packages. Trust me, GURPS can emulate the zero to hero pretty damn well.

Yes, I agree. I like GURPS. My question was more of a challenge to the the idea of 'skip to the awesome' being the only style of play supported by the box. I'm still in on it, but knowing it has little or no direct support for low-power play means it will be of questionable use for me.

I've always thought Yrth was essentially Steve Jackson's take on what a fantasy game world should look like.  Now Yrth's reception is mixed and some of the key points like real world religions and a more realistically medieval setting where dungeons per say are rare, though chasing escaped gladiators into the sewers of Megalos or a dealing with a giant vampire mage might make Tomb of Horrors look like a cake walk.

So, Dungeon Fantasy has always struck me as another disdainful glance at D&D, just like Munchkin.

You know what I'd like?  A detailed poster map of Yrth and a good gazetteer.  A GURPS Fantasy Adventures hard back with an updated Orc Slayer, Harkwood, Tredroy, Fighters of the Purple Rage, Mordag's Little Finger, and yes, even Sahudese Fire Drill.  There was another one in there but it was pretty forgettable and only nominally Yrth related.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;918138250 points is not low powered to me. I suppose making supers out of every genre is what sells.

If it sells, then why do they need a kickstarter?

Just possibly: they don't get it.

Quote from: David Johansen;918736So, Dungeon Fantasy has always struck me as another disdainful glance at D&D, just like Munchkin.

I don't feel DF take on fantasy is either disdainful or similar to Munchkin. It certainly doesn't have a serious tone but what it really lacks in its writing is a sense of wonder. Especially when compared to the various classic D&D rulebooks and many of the OSR rulebooks.

Everybody knows that the fantasy genre along with many D&D tropes are a bit of stretch when it comes plausibility. But what made D&D so effective from the get go is the sense of the wonder and fantastic that infuses the writing and the implied setting.

However in my opionion the tone current DF line is well within the range of rulesets of produced by the OSR. More serious than some, less so than others. It focuses more on the mechanics than most OSR rulesets. But in terms of mechanics has a few great gems that make for a worthy OSR supplement like the DF 8 Treasure Tables.

The main issue of the line until the kickstarter was the short list of monsters and that the fact when they do have monster half of of them are weird Fiend Folio style shit. I don't mind those kind of monster but after you cover the basics first.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;918138Well, Kromm answered the question I had regarding supported point totals. It seems like the trend these days is to make the default starting characters full fledged badasses right from the get go.

250 points is not low powered to me. I suppose making supers out of every genre is what sells.

I disagreed with from 250 point starting point from the get go. The way it was explained to me in 2008 that 250 point isn't so much to make badasses but rather to allow GURPS DF characters to spend as much time in the dungeon as a D&D 3.X characters do before having to take a rest/break.

My counter argument then was people don't switch to GURPS to play a clone of D&D but rather they want to do the same thing they do in D&D but with the GURP rules and level of deadliness. That my group been using D&D modules successfully for years at the 125 to 150 point level. Granted the flow is different, more cautious and a lot more planning of ambushes and stealth scouting. Plus we would typically have a safe point to fall back too if we get into a rough fight. And our first investments were always into buying lots of healing potions and if we have enough powerstones for the mages as well.

I pointed out that people also mixed in "other things" with their dungeon crawling in D&D. That 250 point really cramped that portion of the campaign.

The major downside of the 250 point is the power level of the monsters. I had my friends use DF Monster 'as is' in our 150 point campaigns and they royally kicked our ass. Not all DF Monsters are that powerful but you need to be careful.

Finally in DF 15 Henchmen, they address the issue with rules and commentary. You can use that supplement to make lower powered DF campaign.

Also note that since the time I made that argument the OSR kicked into full gear. Knowing what I know now, I would point out that D&D 3.0 is a poor example of the dungeon trope they are trying to emulate. If you look at the trope originater, OD&D and AD&D. You will that character are not very damn tough unless they are tricked out with magic items. That what you should be emulating not D&D 3.X.

With with the DF boxed set we will have all the GURP Gearheads tearing down how things are built. Since we will have a proper list now and underneath it all is still GURPS. This means we will have enough examples to see not only what it takes to build a DF monster for the normal 250 point campaign, but how to build ones that work for a 150 point campaign. The rest of it like the current DF line will work in any GURPS Fantasy campaign of any point level.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;918743If it sells, then why do they need a kickstarter?

Just possibly: they don't get it.

It a boxed set. Seriously that alone warrants trying it as a kickstarter. But in general the purpose of the kickstarter is to find out if there is still is any life left in GURPS.

Seems to me that GURPS has always been a great game that players with compatible tastes/appreciation will always be into until/unless something better is developed. The marketing struggles SJG has had and continues to have with seem to me (armchair business critic of no authority except as a gamer/fan) to be about their mindset. I feel like there have been some pretty big mistakes which from my POV look like:

1) All the worldbooks which were mainly just light overviews with little/no gameplay rule/data content for players like me, and were not playable out of the box as campaign settings by people who aren't already mostly able to create their own campaigns anyway.

2) Making a very well developed tactical combat system, and a Magic system, and then not developing many other systems with rules developed to the same degree, so again, they weren't offering the same level of content, and were leaving GMs to fill in gaps.

3) Not showcasing how cool and different the tactical combat system can be. This, as a tactical combat fan coming from TFT, may be highly biased, but it seems like most people still don't get/appreciate how fun/cool/interesting/different it is to play a detailed tactical combat with explicit locations and facings and hit locations all with logical intuitive cause & effect and all that jazz that you can see and anyone can understand what's happening and make logical choices about. That's probably the main reason I want to play GURPS or games with those qualities, but it seems like few people even understand that's a thing that exists, or they think it's impossibly complicated. I may be deluded from my perspective, but that feels like a HUGE OVERSIGHT by SJG. Like, they should be able to kick Warhammer's ass by offering a much better battle game, by making a simple combat game based on GURPS as a gateway drug, and running glorious battles at conventions and so on. But oh well.

I always get my buttons pushed by the expression "is a game still ALIVE/DEAD" - games are eternal, and I hate the metaphor, which is about current popularity and attention, but implies a game has to have a life-cycle, and that current popularity and/or sales are what we ought to be interested in, as opposed to what's an interesting game or not.

Quote from: estar;918790I don't feel DF take on fantasy is either disdainful or similar to Munchkin. ...

Weird. When I read through DF line, I see a lot of contempt for "typical D&D style fantasy". The whole tongue in cheek thing really turned me off of it. Sure, there are silly tropes in the genre (D&D as a genre...), but much of the DF pointers/advice, etc. comes off as insulting. I'm a fan of SJGames and GURPS, I can only imagine what someone new to the fold might feel about it. Unless of course the whole snark/contempt thing is a selling point. Remembering how my storygames friends took to D&D4e and the reasons why, this whole "if you MUST romp around kicking down dungeon doors, killing monsters and taking their stuff - use our hip sleekly designed way of doing it so you can be one of the cool kids!" approach may be spot on.

It just rubbed me the wrong way I guess.

Quote from: trechriron;918845Weird. When I read through DF line, I see a lot of contempt for "typical D&D style fantasy". The whole tongue in cheek thing really turned me off of it. Sure, there are silly tropes in the genre (D&D as a genre...), but much of the DF pointers/advice, etc. comes off as insulting. I'm a fan of SJGames and GURPS, I can only imagine what someone new to the fold might feel about it. Unless of course the whole snark/contempt thing is a selling point. Remembering how my storygames friends took to D&D4e and the reasons why, this whole "if you MUST romp around kicking down dungeon doors, killing monsters and taking their stuff - use our hip sleekly designed way of doing it so you can be one of the cool kids!" approach may be spot on.

Well, I don't have any of the Dungeon Fantasy books, so I couldn't say.  Could you post a sample of what you consider to be snark/contempt?

Quote from: jcfiala;918856Well, I don't have any of the Dungeon Fantasy books, so I couldn't say.  Could you post a sample of what you consider to be snark/contempt?

I own the entire line and I'm interested in that as well. I don't see it.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;918743If it sells, then why do they need a kickstarter?

Just possibly: they don't get it.

Kickstarter is a pre order program for direct to customer sales.

Quote from: Skarg;9188221) All the worldbooks which were mainly just light overviews with little/no gameplay rule/data content for players like me, and were not playable out of the box as campaign settings by people who aren't already mostly able to create their own campaigns anyway.

2) Making a very well developed tactical combat system, and a Magic system, and then not developing many other systems with rules developed to the same degree, so again, they weren't offering the same level of content, and were leaving GMs to fill in gaps.

3) Not showcasing how cool and different the tactical combat system can be. This, as a tactical combat fan coming from TFT, may be highly biased, but it seems like most people still don't get/appreciate how fun/cool/interesting/different it is to play a detailed tactical combat with explicit locations and facings and hit locations all with logical intuitive cause & effect and all that jazz that you can see and anyone can understand what's happening and make logical choices about. That's probably the main reason I want to play GURPS or games with those qualities, but it seems like few people even understand that's a thing that exists, or they think it's impossibly complicated. I may be deluded from my perspective, but that feels like a HUGE OVERSIGHT by SJG. Like, they should be able to kick Warhammer's ass by offering a much better battle game, by making a simple combat game based on GURPS as a gateway drug, and running glorious battles at conventions and so on. But oh well.

Bane Storm, Infinite Worlds, Vorkosigian, Disc World, and Mars Attacks are all out of the box settings.

The combat system is indeed awesome.  Actually I'm much less thrilled by the character creation.  It's there, it works, but it has any number of niggling issues that annoy me.  I'm not sure what other sub systems you want hyper detailed.  There's Social Engineering and the various Low Tech supplements anyhow.

Quote from: estar;918792I disagreed with from 250 point starting point from the get go. The way it was explained to me in 2008 that 250 point isn't so much to make badasses but rather to allow GURPS DF characters to spend as much time in the dungeon as a D&D 3.X characters do before having to take a rest/break.

My counter argument then was people don't switch to GURPS to play a clone of D&D but rather they want to do the same thing they do in D&D but with the GURP rules and level of deadliness. That my group been using D&D modules successfully for years at the 125 to 150 point level. Granted the flow is different, more cautious and a lot more planning of ambushes and stealth scouting. Plus we would typically have a safe point to fall back too if we get into a rough fight. And our first investments were always into buying lots of healing potions and if we have enough powerstones for the mages as well.

I pointed out that people also mixed in "other things" with their dungeon crawling in D&D. That 250 point really cramped that portion of the campaign.

The major downside of the 250 point is the power level of the monsters. I had my friends use DF Monster 'as is' in our 150 point campaigns and they royally kicked our ass. Not all DF Monsters are that powerful but you need to be careful.

Finally in DF 15 Henchmen, they address the issue with rules and commentary. You can use that supplement to make lower powered DF campaign.

Also note that since the time I made that argument the OSR kicked into full gear. Knowing what I know now, I would point out that D&D 3.0 is a poor example of the dungeon trope they are trying to emulate. If you look at the trope originater, OD&D and AD&D. You will that character are not very damn tough unless they are tricked out with magic items. That what you should be emulating not D&D 3.X.

With with the DF boxed set we will have all the GURP Gearheads tearing down how things are built. Since we will have a proper list now and underneath it all is still GURPS. This means we will have enough examples to see not only what it takes to build a DF monster for the normal 250 point campaign, but how to build ones that work for a 150 point campaign. The rest of it like the current DF line will work in any GURPS Fantasy campaign of any point level.

I suppose the disconnect is that I want a fantasy game that includes dungeons and SJG is making a "Dungeons Galore!" type of game. I really miss support for regular fantasy. Harkwood  and Tredroy were amazing.

Luckily I am familiar enough with the GURPS nuts & bolts to make the game that I want. I will probably pick up the DF set after release just to see whats in it.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;918994I suppose the disconnect is that I want a fantasy game that includes dungeons and SJG is making a "Dungeons Galore!" type of game. I really miss support for regular fantasy. Harkwood  and Tredroy were amazing.

Outside of the monsters centered around the 250 pt templates everything else in DF is applicable to any GURPS Fantasy campaign. And the people stat blocks in the Mirror of the Fire Demon and DF Henchmen are likewise useful to any GURPS Fantasy campaign. If they cover what classic D&D covers then I think it will be useful even for campaigns centered around Tredroy and Harkwood.

Quote from: trechriron;918845It just rubbed me the wrong way I guess.

Are you talking about this?

Quote. . . the "plot" for a hack-and-slash adventure will be very simple. "Joe the Barbarian, with his friends Ed the Barbarian and Marge the Barbarian, went down into a cave. They saw lots of monsters and killed them and took their treasure. A dragon ate Ed. Joe and Marge ran away. The End."
– GURPS Basic Set

Fantasy is an engaging genre, bursting with wonder and mystery. It offers worlds full of fascinating lands, dotted with great cities and populated by exotic cultures. All of this has a powerful resonance with any gamer familiar with myth, fairytales, and the fantasy epics of literature and film. For that, get GURPS Fantasy.

But something else resonates with nearly every gamer. That's the thrill of taking a powerful, faux-medieval adventurer down into a cave – or a haunted forest, or a sinister stronghold – and seeing lots of monsters, killing them, and taking their treasure. For that, there's GURPS Dungeon Fantasy. Break it out when you don't feel like dealing with complicated plots, fussy social interactions, and so on. The results won't be refined. They might not even be "real roleplaying" (whatever that is). But they'll be fun!

My reaction was meh. After playing and refereeing the Dungeon Crawl Classic RPGs, and Hackmaster 4e, I care more about what they do with the rules. Outside of the focus on 250 pts as the baseline, the whole Dungeon Fantasy Line can hold it own against any OSR ruleset that gushes over the love of classic D&D. They may have written that snarky fire couple of paragraphs but they did not turn in a paint by the number supplement.