TheRPGSite

Greetings All,

As the title says, I consider myself to be an old school RPG gamer. I started with D&D around 1977, at age 10, and was addicted to TT RPGs until about 1989, when I switched to Console / PC based RPGs. Along the decades in between I picked up a rule book here and there, and read them, more akin to reading a fantasy or sci fi novel, purely for the entertainment of reading about the gaming system, rather than actually playing the games. That changed this past summer (2016) when my interest in MMORPGs had finally hit a brick wall, and I turned back to my first love of gaming.

My returned interest began with Robert E. Howard's Conan RPG (Modiphius), and more recently, MYFAROG (2.6) which I have been playing over Google Hangouts / Dice Stream service. I have access to many other RPGs (Star Frontiers, Swordbearer, Twilight 2000, Bushido, D&D 5E, etc., etc), but at the moment the first two games I listed are where my highest interest level is in.

Nice to come across this site,

Pfft.  Noob.

(The above post may contain humor, sarcasm, flatulence, or any combination thereof.)

Welcome! We are a rough hard candy shell bunch, but have a soft gooey nougat center, covered in delicious caramelized opioids and decadent sexual chocolate, wrapped with colorful verbiage bright foil...

... I am sorry, I think I am having a "happy holidaze" treats moment. I'm gonna go have a sit down by the candy dishes for a spell.
:o

Sweet, loved me some Swordbearer and Bushido back in the day. I actually got to dust off my Bushido campaign and run it a few years ago. As a system, it still holds up really well and the players had a blast.

Quote from: IceBlinkLuck;936586Sweet, loved me some Swordbearer and Bushido back in the day. I actually got to dust off my Bushido campaign and run it a few years ago. As a system, it still holds up really well and the players had a blast.

Yeah, back in the day there were a lot of decent to great RPGs.  I have great memories of playing Villains & Vigilantes, Twilight 2000, Call of Cthulhu, Pirates and Plunder, Steve Jacksons Toon!, etc.

Welcome!

I'm guessing you are a TBP (The Big Purple, aka RPG.net aka Moderated Like a Fascist Nightmare-Scape akin to the darkest Dystopian/Cyberpunk Movies...) refugee? Someone tried to start a MYFAROG post and was instantly shut down. I'm guessing they did this because the author is reputed to be a Neo-Nazi, served 15 years in prison for murder and arson, and is somewhat infamous character in general? So, aside from the fact that Vikernes is obviously one of Charles Manson's lost bastard children, what is it about the game you really like? Give me the nickel tour - please. Just don't, you know toss in any Nazi propaganda because I don't care for such philosophies (I kid, I kid...). As a side note why does the Googles NOT have Dystopian in the dictionary? I had to add that shit. What a failure of the GOD SYSTEM.

EDIT: I am interested in the game. Don't let my attempt at comedy dissuade you.

Welcome aboard Bluddworth!

We're a wretched hive of scum and villainy, but free speech is encouraged and defended. So let me be the first to tell you that your favorite game sucks, unless its also my favorite game, but in that case, you are playing it wrong!

However, Bushido really did hold up well.

There have been cool RPG developments in the decades since 1990, especially in the last few years online. If you like Old School style RPGs, I highly recommend checking out Mazes & Minotaurs *(its a free PDF)
http://storygame.free.fr/MAZES.htm

Everyone rightfully mocks F.A.T.A.L. for things like the anal circumference tables and ass-tearing rules, but I always wondered how the combat works and how the system plays.  Myfarog, obviously is written by a White Supremacist, and includes lots of Mud People stuff, but I am interested in how it treats Nordic/Germanic Myth and more importantly are the magic systems interesting from a Viking game perspective or is the Myth here just Ahnenerbe-type stuff.

I had never heard of MYFAROG, or its author, until about 3 months ago.  I was originally introduced to it by a "call to arms" on the Paizo.com forums for the collective to ban the game from being discussed in any way.  I being somewhat Chaotic Neutral, especially on forums, said to myself "I have to check this shit out myself."  I looked the core book up and saw it was only $10.00 or so, and I ordered it.

Now, I'm not going to do a full review using my IPad Mini, but I'll address the specifics asked about above.

1.  The combat system is pretty good, and arguably more realistic than many.  One good hit and I have seen players become fairly nervous about survival.  If that hit causes a bleeding wound, the nervousness becomes a real morale issue and the player starts concentrating on stopping the bleeding.  It was partly do to this reaction that I witnessed that I felt the morale system was quite unnecessary.  

I also like the individual character initiative vs the side based initiative.  This leads to more strategy for a group of players in my opinion.  

2.  The magic system is elemental based and more ritualistic than high fantasy setting magic.  You start out fairly weak, but obviously you get stronger in power and the quantity of spells you can cast later.  I like how your life stance and birthday ties into your connection with your deity and it does have an authentic paganistic feel to the whole system.  

3.  Culturally, there are a lot of interesting elements to the game.  There are certainly traditional rules of society (Iron Age Scandanavian) like Thralldom, laws, crimes and punishments that are really interesting.  Kind of like watching an episode of Vikings on the History channel.

I really enjoy the game and particularly the (private) FB group that I play with.  We don't get much into the politics of the game, and I've personally changed the principle "bad guy, menace" to Robert E Howard's vision of "The Little People" (Worms of the Earth) mixed with H.P. Lovecraft's twist of some Cthulhu Mythos thrown in.

Now I can imagine some might point to my being a fan of 1920's and 30's pulp fiction writers as further indication of latent racism, but I honestly don't care.  The same people will list to Rap music and not have an issue, so their opinion means nothing to me.

Quote from: Bluddworth;936763I had never heard of MYFAROG, or its author, until about 3 months ago.  I was originally introduced to it by a "call to arms" on the Paizo.com forums for the collective to ban the game from being discussed in any way.  I being somewhat Chaotic Neutral, especially on forums, said to myself "I have to check this shit out myself."  I looked the core book up and saw it was only $10.00 or so, and I ordered it.

Lol - yet again an attempt at censorship has its opposite intended effect.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;936776Lol - yet again an attempt at censorship has its opposite intended effect.

The proverb, "There is no such thing as bad publicity" is often proven true.  The FB community I joined, a private group for MYFAROG, was about 500 members when I joined it.  It is now over 600 members and the scheduled events are being set up often.

Quote from: Bluddworth;936763I being somewhat Chaotic Neutral, especially on forums, said to myself "I have to check this shit out myself."  

Sounds like our kind of scum!

You'll fit in just fine. :)

Quote from: Bluddworth;936782It is now over 600 members

Several of whom are leftist gamer moles busily compiling lists of people for their Maoist purge!

I won't ban someone for liking that piece of shit game by that piece of shit neo-nazi (as long as they don't use threads about it to promote neo-nazism), but seriously, it's fucking garbage.

Quote from: RPGPundit;938211I won't ban someone for liking that piece of shit game by that piece of shit neo-nazi (as long as they don't use threads about it to promote neo-nazism), but seriously, it's fucking garbage.

SO, author's personality or beliefs aside, why is it garbage?

Quote from: Bluddworth;9367631.  The combat system is pretty good, and arguably more realistic than many.  One good hit and I have seen players become fairly nervous about survival.  If that hit causes a bleeding wound, the nervousness becomes a real morale issue and the player starts concentrating on stopping the bleeding.  It was partly do to this reaction that I witnessed that I felt the morale system was quite unnecessary.  

I haven't read the game, but I did see Varg's Youtube video where he strapped on some armor and ran around a field doing adventuring activities like jumping, tumbling, and climbing trees to try and figure out what armor check penalties should be like in his game.

Whenever you hear someone bang on about "realistic combat" in roleplaying games, it's usually some armchair martial artist whose never been in a fight in their life spouting bullshit about things they no nothing about.

Varg Vikernes stabbed a man to death, went to prison, and now spends his free time running around fields in suits of armor. He's the only game designer I know that can talk about realism in medieval combat from a position of practical experience. Whatever one might say about the man's politics and beliefs, you gotta admit he brings a rare perspective to the table.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;938263SO, author's personality or beliefs aside, why is it garbage?

There is a review here with screenshots and commentary... http://www.metalsucks.net/2015/08/21/advanced-discrimination-dragons-critical-look-varg-vikernes-myfarog-rpg/

Quote from: Cave Bear;938381I haven't read the game, but I did see Varg's Youtube video where he strapped on some armor and ran around a field doing adventuring activities like jumping, tumbling, and climbing trees to try and figure out what armor check penalties should be like in his game.

Whenever you hear someone bang on about "realistic combat" in roleplaying games, it's usually some armchair martial artist whose never been in a fight in their life spouting bullshit about things they no nothing about.

Varg Vikernes stabbed a man to death, went to prison, and now spends his free time running around fields in suits of armor. He's the only game designer I know that can talk about realism in medieval combat from a position of practical experience. Whatever one might say about the man's politics and beliefs, you gotta admit he brings a rare perspective to the table.

Luckily for soldiers and for everyone else, murdering someone unarmed by stabbing him and combat against an armed opponent, even a kobold, aren't exactly the same thing. And I'm not talking about ethics.

I commend his willingness to try wearing armor, though.

Quote from: Xanther;938388There is a review here with screenshots and commentary... http://www.metalsucks.net/2015/08/21/advanced-discrimination-dragons-critical-look-varg-vikernes-myfarog-rpg/

Racism and sexism, all wrapped in the worst possible font asides Wingdings?

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;938391Racism and sexism, all wrapped in the worst possible font asides Wingdings?

All of that, and a mix between an old school system and GURPS, if the review is to be trusted.
At least it focuses on survivalism, which it seems is something that the author does know a lot about. But I am now wondering where the OP found it for $10, the review claims several times that.

Quote from: AsenRG;938392All of that, and a mix between an old school system and GURPS, if the review is to be trusted.
At least it focuses on survivalism, which it seems is something that the author does know a lot about. But I am now wondering where the OP found it for $10, the review claims several times that.

I had no idea what this RPG was, until I found the author's YouTube channel today. After watching a half dozen or so, I came across this:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]624[/ATTACH]

EDIT - uh oh... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00xegtA-qMk

EDIT 2 - OK, this guy can kick rocks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02HZalIGsGg

Yep, the RPG's author is a bottom-dweller. I think we've established that.

To the OP, welcome aboard, Bluddworth, we hope you enjoy your stay. I'm going to take you at your word about how you are using Myfarog, the worst that can happen is that I'm disappointed. Other than D&D, what systems did you cut your teeth on?

Quote from: Xanther;938388There is a review here with screenshots and commentary... http://www.metalsucks.net/2015/08/21/advanced-discrimination-dragons-critical-look-varg-vikernes-myfarog-rpg/

Fun review but hardly fair . Note I don't own the  game , the one guy I Knew  interested in it left for his home state of Kentucky and online play is of no interest to me.

 infant mortality rates in the past were rather high though why anyone would ever sue such a chart is beyond my gaming experience but gain some people like dynastic play like I dunno Pendragon or something

Also humans are  very sexually dimorphic and   women are in fact nowhere near as strong  as men having less muscle mass per pound and weighing less as well. The strength differences are so profound that even a lightweight 41 year old modestly skilled  trans gender (formerly male) doped with female hormones MMA fighter (Fallon Fox) has no trouble defeating a younger more skilled  biological female opponent and hits with strength enough to shatter her eye sockets . I suspect nearly any man on this board with good martial arts skills and within the same weight group could flatten almost any female MMA starin the same weight category

Weapons do make a difference bit if anything Varg is probably being generous

Hell even  AD&D had a strength cap for women back in the day.

As for his racial stereotypes, meh, its Varg and as for ethnic cleaning being a possible plot element? I do assume you've read the Bible or some history. Its a common enough thing and nearly every group engages in and still does. My hone state, 21st century California had to have the FBI step in to stop ethnic cleansing in Azusa a few years ago and there is plenty still going on behind the scenes right now 2017 all over the world. Its a human thing.


That said Varg's opinions on Norse mythology and Odinism (err Othalism) and  mythic history  are shall we say eccentric as are his reconstructed spiritual practices

However, if you take a 280 pound average height male, with 65% body fat and match him up with an average height woman, with 15% body fat, I'm sure the punches she is landing are considerably harder. There are ladies in Crossfit who outclass unfit males in the same height/weight category. The variances are actually broad.

So, being there is all this variance, and being these are fantasy games; there's no reason to not allow someone to play a super strong female or a less-muscular male. I'm not saying the attempt to dive into the ultra-realistic historically accurate is bad-wrong-fun. In my experience most people would rather play something fun than "accurate". Since these arguments tend to be used as an excuse for misogynist behavior is yet another reason I just drop all the requirements. Height/Weight tables can be used (like many other types of detailed tables in char gen) as an inspiration but trying to play "God the accurate baby maker because #sciencemaths" is absurd. IMHO.

Quote from: trechriron;938422However, if you take a 280 pound average height male, with 65% body fat and match him up with an average height woman, with 15% body fat, I'm sure the punches she is landing are considerably harder. There are ladies in Crossfit who outclass unfit males in the same height/weight category. The variances are actually broad.

So, being there is all this variance, and being these are fantasy games; there's no reason to not allow someone to play a super strong female or a less-muscular male. I'm not saying the attempt to dive into the ultra-realistic historically accurate is bad-wrong-fun. In my experience most people would rather play something fun than "accurate". Since these arguments tend to be used as an excuse for misogynist behavior is yet another reason I just drop all the requirements. Height/Weight tables can be used (like many other types of detailed tables in char gen) as an inspiration but trying to play "God the accurate baby maker because #sciencemaths" is absurd. IMHO.

65% body fat  vs 15% kung fu mama is a pretty extreme case but yeah sure there are edge cases. That said women cannot outperform reasonably fit  men in nearly  any category, nature of the species I'm afraid ,

To what you said re: gaming. I agree. Fun first and I tend to drop the rules too. I'm mean its often  a world where people say "Biggity Bobbity Boo" and puke fire at people. I see no reason PC women can have magically powerful strength or nanites or whatever

First of all, what is wrong with Papyrus?

Second, to the OP...

How did you pick as your current goto game...Myfarog?  Where did you hear about it, what about it made you think "Hmm, a game written by a convicted murderer and white supremacist? - Let's give it a go!"  Were you a fan of Burzum?
Finally, what about the game pushes the right buttons.  Sure you came for the...whatever...but why are you staying?

Quote from: 5 Stone Games;938418Also humans are  very sexually dimorphic and   women are in fact nowhere near as strong  as men having less muscle mass per pound and weighing less as well. The strength differences are so profound that even a lightweight 41 year old modestly skilled  trans gender (formerly male) doped with female hormones MMA fighter (Fallon Fox) has no trouble defeating a younger more skilled  biological female opponent and hits with strength enough to shatter her eye sockets . I suspect nearly any man on this board with good martial arts skills and within the same weight group could flatten almost any female MMA starin the same weight category

Weapons do make a difference bit if anything Varg is probably being generous

My one question is, do you say that as a man with good martial arts skills who can flatten almost any female MMA star in your category:)?

QuoteAs for his racial stereotypes, meh, its Varg and as for ethnic cleaning being a possible plot element? I do assume you've read the Bible or some history. Its a common enough thing and nearly every group engages in and still does. My hone state, 21st century California had to have the FBI step in to stop ethnic cleansing in Azusa a few years ago and there is plenty still going on behind the scenes right now 2017 all over the world. Its a human thing.

I've seen enough ethnic cleansings in games long before Myfarog was even written.

QuoteThat said Varg's opinions on Norse mythology and Odinism (err Othalism) and  mythic history  are shall we say eccentric as are his reconstructed spiritual practices

"Eccentric" is the best you can say about them, judging by his youtube channel;).

Race/ethnic war is a major element of human history since the dawn of man so  why we should be surprised about it showing up in media and games.

Quote from: Spinachcat;938651Race/ethnic war is a major element of human history since the dawn of man so  why we should be surprised about it showing up in media and games.

So is rape. Doesn't mean either of these is a good gaming hook.

Come on now, people. This is a game where the author, a notorious and unrepentant white supremacist, actively proposes the killing of swarthy humans (not orcs, not zombies, not robots — just humans of a darker complexion) as a serviceable adventure hook. And it's not even "kill them and take their stuff" — it's "kill them because darker-skinned people are Always Evil."

This game is OSR RaHoWa and I'm aghast that anyone would consider the "fluff" acceptable campaign material.

If everyone's comfortable with this, well fuck it, I'm in the wrong message board.

Quote from: Spinachcat;938651Race/ethnic war is a major element of human history since the dawn of man so  why we should be surprised about it showing up in media and games.

There's a wide gap between "showing up" and "endorsing."

Quote from: The Butcher;938660This game is OSR RaHoWa

I was trying to recall that name of that game to make the same comparison.

QuoteIf everyone's comfortable with this, well fuck it, I'm in the wrong message board.

Well, chances are its a troll.

Quote from: The Butcher;938660If everyone's comfortable with this, well fuck it, I'm in the wrong message board.

I dare say few if anyone is happy with this at all, and plenty of people have made negative comments about it. I think it's finding the right way of saying, 'this isn't TBP. We won't censor or censure this, but we will mock it unceremoniously.'

And, to expand on what Tristam said, could be troll, could be racist looking for at the anti-TBP board and trying to feel out whether they'll find an accepting audience, or they could be being perfectly honest and think one can look past the author's politics. We shall see.

Quote from: CRKrueger;938584First of all, what is wrong with Papyrus?

Well, there's some level of irony of a game written by a white nationalist in a font specifically celebrating a black culture, but besides that...

http://www.webdesignerdepot.com/2011/02/10-iconic-fonts-and-why-you-should-never-use-them/ (http://www.webdesignerdepot.com/2011/02/10-iconic-fonts-and-why-you-should-never-use-them/)

*pushes Maztica box set out of sight* :o

Quote from: Tristram Evans;938679Well, there's some level of irony of a game written by a white nationalist in a font specifically celebrating a black culture, but besides that...

http://www.webdesignerdepot.com/2011/02/10-iconic-fonts-and-why-you-should-never-use-them/ (http://www.webdesignerdepot.com/2011/02/10-iconic-fonts-and-why-you-should-never-use-them/)

???
Neither your link nor Wikipedia  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus_(typeface))mention any connection to black culture.

Quote from: The Butcher;938660This game is OSR RaHoWa and I'm aghast that anyone would consider the "fluff" acceptable campaign material.

If everyone's comfortable with this, well fuck it, I'm in the wrong message board.

I'm not interested in the fluff, but the mechanics might be fun (unless the Pundit can explain his objections to them). There's more than a few games I own which are set in a setting I have no interest of, this one isn't all that different from them:).

Admittedly, I'm not sure whether I'd choose to look past the author's policies, but I might, and I'd like to point that the OP also mentioned having changed the setting;).

Quote from: Willie the Duck;938696???
Neither your link nor Wikipedia  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus_(typeface))mention any connection to black culture.

lol, I didn't anticipate anyone needing that explained

here you go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus

Quote from: AsenRG;938699but the mechanics might be fun

I wouldn't count on that...

(http://www.metalsucks.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/IMG_1510-e1438465092967.jpg)

Quote from: AsenRG;938699..
Admittedly, I'm not sure whether I'd choose to look past the author's policies, but I might, and I'd like to point that the OP also mentioned having changed the setting;).

One of the strongest votes you can make is with your wallet, I ask myself, would I want any of my money in this author's pocket?  Admittedly, I don't know what most authors would do with the money they get, but when I know I can't just bury my head in the sand.

Quote from: Xanther;938711One of the strongest votes you can make is with your wallet, I ask myself, would I want any of my money in this author's pocket?  Admittedly, I don't know what most authors would do with the money they get, but when I know I can't just bury my head in the sand.

Very true. The author is a racist arsewipe, and doesn't deserve anyone's cash.

I don't think he deserves the oxygen of publicity.

Personally, I wouldn't give him the oxygen of oxygen.

YMMV

Quote from: Tristram Evans;938700lol, I didn't anticipate anyone needing that explained

here you go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus

Y'know, what I missed was the 'a' in 'a black culture,' so I was thinking "how does a font celebrate black culture? (as in the generic concept, maybe a famous black typesetter invented it)" Ok. Egypt. Not all that black, certainly not the only people who used papyrus, but I see it.

I asked my question of the OP for several reasons;

1) I abhor what RPG.net has become. I adore theRPGsite because it's a place we can actually discuss ANYTHING and complete that discussion to OUR (the posters) satisfaction. Ugly warts and all.
2) In order to have discussions we need to be engaged. I was curious, what with the controversy of the author, what the OP felt about the game.
3) I was genuinely curious about the specifics of the game. Just because (IMHO) Chik-Fil-A is owned by some angry Christian bigots does not in fact mean that Chik-Fil-A's food is bad. In fact, it's quite the contrary.
4) I have no filter, so poking the Elephant in the Room is something I'm psychologically compelled to do.

Butcher - you're not on the wrong board. You're on the best board. If people opposed to the author, or people who find the work to be lacking don't post, then theRPGsite becomes another echo chamber. I think all opinions should be openly shared so everyone has the most information to make informed decisions for themselves.

Quote from: The Butcher;938660If everyone's comfortable with this, well fuck it, I'm in the wrong message board.

I wouldn't run it, for what it's worth, nor would a lot of other folks here, I assume. But, as it's a game, I wouldn't trundle on someone else fiddling with it, because, again, it's a game.

Quote from: trechriron;938749I have no filter, so poking the Elephant in the Room is something I'm psychologically compelled to do.

Same here.

What the fuck is wrong with us?!

Threadjack on Fonts, so feel free to ignore it.

Spoiler

Quote from: Tristram Evans;938679Well, there's some level of irony of a game written by a white nationalist in a font specifically celebrating a black culture, but besides that...

Yeah that only speaks to it's use within Myfarog, which isn't the question I asked.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;938679http://www.webdesignerdepot.com/2011/02/10-iconic-fonts-and-why-you-should-never-use-them/ (http://www.webdesignerdepot.com/2011/02/10-iconic-fonts-and-why-you-should-never-use-them/)

Yeah but breaking down that list:
1. Impact: "it’s too thin, too focused and too amateurish to stand out." - "Too thin", too thin for what? ok that sounds like 1 opinion.  "Too focused" - what does that even mean, for some things don't you want that? "Too amateurish" - ah artistic snobbery, this I understand.  I expect the real reason is: It's been overused by the Hoi Polloi.
2. Thesans Basic : The Q is fucked.  Perfect reason.
3. Trajan: Hollywood overused it.
4. Arial: Too much like Helvetica
5. Comic Sans: Looks like a font in kid's books.  Yeah it does.  Doesn't mean it doesn't have it's purpose, and a Superhero RPG may be one of them.
6. Franklin Gothic: Great Font misused by the wrong sort of people.  Artisitic elitism, again this I understand.
7. Helvetica: Overused
8. Handwritten fonts: Gimmicky, I can see it. It's faux-personality.
9. Courier: Disproportional lettering, I can see it.  However, this whole article is about fonts not to use ON THE WEB.
10. Papyrus : According to that author (an 18 year old): "Papyrus is the king of bad fonts. Equal parts childish, kitschy and irritating, this ugly piece of typography has found its way into everything from film posters (Avatar, anyone?) to logos for credit unions.
It has become such a universal annoyance that several anti-Papyrus blogs have popped up.
As with Comic Sans, avoid this typeface if you want to be taken seriously. Unlike other reviled typefaces, though, Papyrus isn’t bad because it is overused: it’s bad because it just doesn’t look good. Kitschy, cheap and vile, Papyrus has no place in your designs.

So don't use Papyrus because an 18 year old web designer needs to gain self-esteem and artistic cred for his personal opinions by finding things to malign under some form of "artistic common wisdom", which really means his brain has to justify the cutting edge and appropriate Fonts he paid $300 each for.  Yeah...Ok.

Elites laughing at the Plebs...I thought there was a real reason. ;)

It seems...obviously...that its quasi-ancient-looking styling would be inappropriate, and not the right tone, for a whole lot of things.
A fantasy roleplaying game, however, doesn't seem to be among them I wouldn't think.

However, I'm totally with you that a Nordic-Supremacist RPG using a font that was designed to evoke Egypt/Babylon/Assyria, etc. seems a satirically inappropriate choice.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;938781Same here.

What the fuck is wrong with us?!

I posit nothing. I think filters are like an alien parasite that is infecting mankind.

We don't have Free Speech on this site though.  

I can't embed or link directly to Porn, not even certain sites that specifically deal in fantasy themes (I found out that was a thing a couple months ago).
I can't propose a fictional setting, include pederasty, and link to Nambla or other sites that detail historical precedent.
I can't link to Stormfront.
I can call Pundit anything I can think of, except a literal Nazi.

So, there's some shit that even Mos Eisley won't put up with, like Droids. :D

However, like Brendan I think was alluding to in other threads, there is a dangerous trap we may be moving towards.  

That dangerous trap is "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

Regressive Anti-Free Speech, SJWs, PC Police, etc - the Zone that ranges from the Far Left to the Extreme Left is something that people starting with the Moderate Left start opposing to various degrees.   However, the Zone that ranges from the Far Right to the Extreme Right is also the Enemy of the Far to Extreme Left.

That's the problem with most political discourse.  People on all sides are far too willing to dismiss and accept the Crazies in their midst because they take a number, wear the shirt, and give weight to throw against the opposition.

We see this all over the place:
Some Muslims are too slow to renounce terrorists.
Some Christians are too slow to renounce the Westboro Baptists.
Moderate Democrats are too slow to renounce Identity Politics or Neoliberalism.
Moderate Republicans are too slow to renounce Identity Politics or Neoconservatism.
Before people go apeshit, these similarities are not those of degree, but of kind.

Our side is 100% right, with no possible criticisms allowed, and their side is 100% wrong, with no possible redeeming values or ideas.  We might as well be warring Chimp tribes in the jungle, because our humanity certainly isn't being used.

This site is starting to seem a little bit like we brought over that great-uncle for Thanksgiving, but this time, we're deciding to give him the spare bedroom because he likes the same baseball team we do.

We got people with "Demographics is Destiny" siglines.
We got new people showing up who play Myfarog.
We have people way too personally invested it seems as to whether Milo pitches or catches.

I don't have a problem with an open forum that allows Racist shitheads any more than I have a problem with the Extreme Leftist shitheads (and we have us some of those).

The problem is, I'm not really seeing the Crazy Right called on their bullshit to the same degree as the Crazy Left.  With both Right and Left getting crazier it seems by the day, this is a little worrisome I think, as it leads to a snowball effect, where we start moving our own Overton Window to allow Toxic Right Shit for no other reason than it's not Toxic Left Shit.

One Horse Town calls The Pundit's Forum "Pungency" and I think he's accurate.  These days it's starting to stink.
 
Do I think we should ban the forum, ban more topics, etc? No.
But we all know that Online Discourse can too easily become shit because it's too easy to just spew a bile-laden drive-by without the same thought or consideration we would show if we were conversing with that person in real life.

Maybe we need a "No-Flame Month" or something.  And yeah, when that suggestion is coming from me, brother that's saying something. :D

Quote from: CRKrueger;938818So don't use Papyrus because an 18 year old web designer needs to gain self-esteem and artistic cred for his personal opinions by finding things to malign under some form of "artistic common wisdom", which really means his brain has to justify the cutting edge and appropriate Fonts he paid $300 each for. Yeah...Ok.

Elites laughing at the Plebs...I thought there was a real reason.  

I've no clue as to the age of the poster, just grabbed the first relevant link on google. But they are parroting a commonly-held view in typography. Now, I'm not saying anyone has to follow that; people can do whatever they find aesthetically pleasing. It's just for someone who is interested in typography (just as a hobby for me, some people take it way more seriously (ahem) I should amend that, its not a hobby that I take as seriously as, say, RPGs) it screams "amateur" and induces giggles, much the same as (yet another) superhero RPG written entirely in Comics Sans.

But its far from the most relevant issue regarding MYFAROG.

More Font Tangent, I'll stop, I swear

Spoiler

Quote from: Tristram Evans;938819It's just for someone who is interested in typography (just as a hobby for me, some people take it way more seriously (ahem) I should amend that, its not a hobby that I take as seriously as, say, RPGs) it screams "amateur" and induces giggles, much the same as (yet another) superhero RPG written entirely in Comics Sans.

I personally hate Comic Sans as a font, but I realize that's a personal bias.  

If the author of a Superhero RPG is specifically trying to evoke a light-hearted POW!, BOOM!, SOCKO! comic book feel, what font is going to do that better than Comic Sans?

If I'm an Investment Capital Firm and you submit your business plan in Comic Sans to show me you "think outside the box" you're going to hit the pavement outside face first and be an ongoing joke for a decade.

The designer of the Papyrus font said: "I never intended Papyrus to be used for mortgage companies and construction logos."  

So overuse and use outside of context are crimes against the users, not against the Font.  People giggling, it's because they need to feel superior by giggling at something inferior, and that's really it.
 
Get into miniature painting, snobs will giggle at the wrong kind of paint, or brushes, or certain sculptors.
Get into miniature wargaming, snobs will giggle at certain games, certain armies, or certain strategies. (some people giggle and roll their eyes at Skaven for example, me I curse and pray to Sigmar)
Get into firearms, snobs will giggle at certain manufacturers, certain weapons, certain calibers.
Windows guys giggle at Linux guys and vice versa and they both giggle at anything Apple.
Get into W, snobs will giggle at X, Y, Z.

In any case, you've answered my question, which is "Overuse and inappropriate use, have rendered it unacceptable to the typographic culture who seek to objectively justify that classification because #ForeverHighSchool." :D

Quote from: CRKrueger;938818We don't have Free Speech on this site though.  

I can't embed or link directly to Porn, not even certain sites that specifically deal in fantasy themes (I found out that was a thing a couple months ago).
I can't propose a fictional setting, include pederasty, and link to Nambla or other sites that detail historical precedent.
I can't link to Stormfront.
I can call Pundit anything I can think of, except a literal Nazi.

So, there's some shit that even Mos Eisley won't put up with, like Droids. :D

However, like Brendan I think was alluding to in other threads, there is a dangerous trap we may be moving towards.  

That dangerous trap is "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

Regressive Anti-Free Speech, SJWs, PC Police, etc - the Zone that ranges from the Far Left to the Extreme Left is something that people starting with the Moderate Left start opposing to various degrees.   However, the Zone that ranges from the Far Right to the Extreme Right is also the Enemy of the Far to Extreme Left.

That's the problem with most political discourse.  People on all sides are far too willing to dismiss and accept the Crazies in their midst because they take a number, wear the shirt, and give weight to throw against the opposition.

We see this all over the place:
Some Muslims are too slow to renounce terrorists.
Some Christians are too slow to renounce the Westboro Baptists.
Moderate Democrats are too slow to renounce Identity Politics or Neoliberalism.
Moderate Republicans are too slow to renounce Identity Politics or Neoconservatism.
Before people go apeshit, these similarities are not those of degree, but of kind.

Our side is 100% right, with no possible criticisms allowed, and their side is 100% wrong, with no possible redeeming values or ideas.  We might as well be warring Chimp tribes in the jungle, because our humanity certainly isn't being used.

This site is starting to seem a little bit like we brought over that great-uncle for Thanksgiving, but this time, we're deciding to give him the spare bedroom because he likes the same baseball team we do.

We got people with "Demographics is Destiny" siglines.
We got new people showing up who play Myfarog.
We have people way too personally invested it seems as to whether Milo pitches or catches.

I don't have a problem with an open forum that allows Racist shitheads any more than I have a problem with the Extreme Leftist shitheads (and we have us some of those).

The problem is, I'm not really seeing the Crazy Right called on their bullshit to the same degree as the Crazy Left.  With both Right and Left getting crazier it seems by the day, this is a little worrisome I think, as it leads to a snowball effect, where we start moving our own Overton Window to allow Toxic Right Shit for no other reason than it's not Toxic Left Shit.

One Horse Town calls The Pundit's Forum "Pungency" and I think he's accurate.  These days it's starting to stink.
 
Do I think we should ban the forum, ban more topics, etc? No.
But we all know that Online Discourse can too easily become shit because it's too easy to just spew a bile-laden drive-by without the same thought or consideration we would show if we were conversing with that person in real life.

Maybe we need a "No-Flame Month" or something.  And yeah, when that suggestion is coming from me, brother that's saying something. :D

This is a good post you fucker:)

While I am a handsome white male hung like a show pony, my kids are mixed race.  That whole racist shit does not fly with me.  I don't give a shit what kind of mechanics that Dickus McWad has in his game, that he swam in armor and rammed cucumbers up his ass so he could figure out whether it increases the check by +1.    Fuck his game- fuck it right in the ear.

Quote from: CRKrueger;938818We got new people showing up who play Myfarog. [...]

The problem is, I'm not really seeing the Crazy Right called on their bullshit to the same degree as the Crazy Left.  

Well, this is an rpg board, not a political board, so I don't care about "right" and "left" here. What I do care about is gaming.

And I'd never heard of Myfarog. This (http://www.metalsucks.net/2015/08/21/advanced-discrimination-dragons-critical-look-varg-vikernes-myfarog-rpg/) gives a nice rundown. I can say that if the OP plays that, he is a dumb cunt, except cunts are useful so let's just call him dumb. I can see why the OP would have to play it online, you won't get enough of them in one place to put them around a game table, and anyway most of them would never leave their parents' basement in case someone offered them a job.

Bluddworth would be that guy who someone vaguely knows and invites to your game table, and he comes once and you then have a stern word with that player about being more picky, for fuck's sakes. Speaking as a Jew, all I can say is:

Quote from: Tristram Evans;938701I wouldn't count on that...

(http://www.metalsucks.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/IMG_1510-e1438465092967.jpg)

I said "might" for a  reason:).

Quote from: Xanther;938711One of the strongest votes you can make is with your wallet, I ask myself, would I want any of my money in this author's pocket?  Admittedly, I don't know what most authors would do with the money they get, but when I know I can't just bury my head in the sand.

And I wonder whether I want to let politics influence my purchases, frankly. Although I strongly suspect Varg offends my ethnic group in it, too.

Quote from: CRKrueger;938818We don't have Free Speech on this site though.  

I can't embed or link directly to Porn, not even certain sites that specifically deal in fantasy themes (I found out that was a thing a couple months ago).
I can't propose a fictional setting, include pederasty, and link to Nambla or other sites that detail historical precedent.
I can't link to Stormfront.
I can call Pundit anything I can think of, except a literal Nazi.

So, there's some shit that even Mos Eisley won't put up with, like Droids. :D

However, like Brendan I think was alluding to in other threads, there is a dangerous trap we may be moving towards.  

That dangerous trap is "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

Regressive Anti-Free Speech, SJWs, PC Police, etc - the Zone that ranges from the Far Left to the Extreme Left is something that people starting with the Moderate Left start opposing to various degrees.   However, the Zone that ranges from the Far Right to the Extreme Right is also the Enemy of the Far to Extreme Left.

That's the problem with most political discourse.  People on all sides are far too willing to dismiss and accept the Crazies in their midst because they take a number, wear the shirt, and give weight to throw against the opposition.

We see this all over the place:
Some Muslims are too slow to renounce terrorists.
Some Christians are too slow to renounce the Westboro Baptists.
Moderate Democrats are too slow to renounce Identity Politics or Neoliberalism.
Moderate Republicans are too slow to renounce Identity Politics or Neoconservatism.
Before people go apeshit, these similarities are not those of degree, but of kind.

Our side is 100% right, with no possible criticisms allowed, and their side is 100% wrong, with no possible redeeming values or ideas.  We might as well be warring Chimp tribes in the jungle, because our humanity certainly isn't being used.

This site is starting to seem a little bit like we brought over that great-uncle for Thanksgiving, but this time, we're deciding to give him the spare bedroom because he likes the same baseball team we do.

We got people with "Demographics is Destiny" siglines.
We got new people showing up who play Myfarog.
We have people way too personally invested it seems as to whether Milo pitches or catches.

I don't have a problem with an open forum that allows Racist shitheads any more than I have a problem with the Extreme Leftist shitheads (and we have us some of those).

The problem is, I'm not really seeing the Crazy Right called on their bullshit to the same degree as the Crazy Left.  With both Right and Left getting crazier it seems by the day, this is a little worrisome I think, as it leads to a snowball effect, where we start moving our own Overton Window to allow Toxic Right Shit for no other reason than it's not Toxic Left Shit.

One Horse Town calls The Pundit's Forum "Pungency" and I think he's accurate.  These days it's starting to stink.
 
Do I think we should ban the forum, ban more topics, etc? No.
But we all know that Online Discourse can too easily become shit because it's too easy to just spew a bile-laden drive-by without the same thought or consideration we would show if we were conversing with that person in real life.

Maybe we need a "No-Flame Month" or something.  And yeah, when that suggestion is coming from me, brother that's saying something. :D

All of this was true, but that last part? I almost dropped my phone! Spoiler these with warnings, Green One:D!

Quote from: RunningLaser;938823This is a good post you fucker:)

While I am a handsome white male hung like a show pony, my kids are mixed race.  That whole racist shit does not fly with me.  I don't give a shit what kind of mechanics that Dickus McWad has in his game, that he swam in armor and rammed cucumbers up his ass so he could figure out whether it increases the check by +1.    Fuck his game- fuck it right in the ear.

Much as I agree, I admit I'm now picturing someone  hung like a pony trying to fuck a game manual and mutterin angrily about the damn thing having no ears...;)

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;938825Well, this is an rpg board, not a political board, so I don't care about "right" and "left" here. What I do care about is gaming.

And I'd never heard of Myfarog. This (http://www.metalsucks.net/2015/08/21/advanced-discrimination-dragons-critical-look-varg-vikernes-myfarog-rpg/) gives a nice rundown. I can say that if the OP plays that, he is a dumb cunt, except cunts are useful so let's just call him dumb. I can see why the OP would have to play it online, you won't get enough of them in one place to put them around a game table, and anyway most of them would never leave their parents' basement in case someone offered them a job.

Bluddworth would be that guy who someone vaguely knows and invites to your game table, and he comes once and you then have a stern word with that player about being more picky, for fuck's sakes. Speaking as a Jew, all I can say is:

shabbat shalom, motherfucker!

(http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Hebrew_Hammer_8571.jpg)

OK, that made me laugh; ). I should print a T-shirt with this for a guy in my gym. (Being of Jewish descent, he can then rightfully take it as his battlecry:D! That's bound to be fun during reenactment, too;))!

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;938825Well, this is an rpg board, not a political board, so I don't care about "right" and "left" here. What I do care about is gaming.

And I'd never heard of Myfarog. This (http://www.metalsucks.net/2015/08/21/advanced-discrimination-dragons-critical-look-varg-vikernes-myfarog-rpg/) gives a nice rundown. I can say that if the OP plays that, he is a dumb cunt, except cunts are useful so let's just call him dumb. I can see why the OP would have to play it online, you won't get enough of them in one place to put them around a game table, and anyway most of them would never leave their parents' basement in case someone offered them a job.

Bluddworth would be that guy who someone vaguely knows and invites to your game table, and he comes once and you then have a stern word with that player about being more picky, for fuck's sakes. Speaking as a Jew, all I can say is:

shabbat shalom, motherfucker!

(http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Hebrew_Hammer_8571.jpg)

Hmm...  You don't know me, and yet you pass judgement..  That's of course your right, but quite honestly I don't give much heed to the opinions of ignorant people.  

I play the game because it is a good system (the 2.6 version of it for sure).  I quite frankly don't care about the political views of the author, he has no power over me and I don't live next door to him.  If I worried about the political, racial or religious views of the sources of my entertainment, I'd have to disconnect the electrical power to my house.  

The game is encouraged to play "rules lite" but for those who like numbers crunchy games, it is all there for them.  In all of the gaming experience that I have had, not one adventure included any racial or religious component.  The game system is also not inextricably tied to the setting of Thule.  I have intentions of running it in the Ice Kingdoms setting, and its post apocalyptic setting has no real connections to Thule either.  

I am a reader of game systems, some of which I don't play and probably never will play.  I judge a game by its mechanics, and how fun it is or would appear to play.  I also like to use game systems and settings to create stories for my writing projects.

Years ago our preacher advised everyone in the congregation not to buy Crest toothpaste or Tide detergent as a show of force against Proctor and Gamble who were supporting gay marriage. How I feel about gay marriage isn't important in this situation but at the time I thought his request ridiculous. Call me shallow but if I like Crest or Tide or whatever the hell, Im not going to worry about where my money goes farther than the clerk at the register. The owner of one of the Mexican restaurants in our community has a reputation for running drugs. I know a few people that wont eat there for fear of helping finance his operation. When I tell them it doesn't bother me Ive gotten looks like Im luring preschoolers into my van or something. Its all the same. If you feel bothered by such things, then by all means act your conscious but I don't think you should criticize others who may not be so led.

To get back on track of GAMING.....

I recently picked up a copy of Boot Hill (TSR) and I'm looking to adapt it to the setting of Robert E Howard's El Borak stories which are set in Afghanistan (up until about 1914).  

Soon I also expect to get the hardcovers of REH's Conan RPG (Modiphius) and then I'll be somewhat occupied by that.  

Also.....  Wow, 2017 is shaping up to be a great year, Conan Exiles MMO (Funcom) goes into early access on January 31, 2017.  

That is a lot of gaming on my plate for the first few months of this year.

Huge Howard fan here too, awaiting my monster-ass kickstarter order from Modiphius too. Awaiting my annual pilgrimage to Cross Plains on the 22nd, REH birthday too. Not that big a deal since I live only a couple hours away but I like to go and pay my respects at his home there. He had a huge impact on my life as a kid and to this day.

Walmart employs overseas slave labour for the  production of its goods, chooses its employees from the economically disenfranchised specifically so they can pay them below a living wage and enforce unpaid overtime, and has wreaked more economic damage to North America than any corrupt banker or politician. Walmart has literally directly created ghost towns. Yet people still choose to shop there because to them all that matters is that they get some stuff cheap. Because they have that exact same attitude;it's not their responsibility where their money goes.

Sorry, that dog don't hunt.

Quote from: rgrove0172;939468Huge Howard fan here too, awaiting my monster-ass kickstarter order from Modiphius too. Awaiting my annual pilgrimage to Cross Plains on the 22nd, REH birthday too. Not that big a deal since I live only a couple hours away but I like to go and pay my respects at his home there. He had a huge impact on my life as a kid and to this day.

I envy you for your proximity to Howard's home town.  I would love to visit Howard's and HP Lovecraft's homes at some point in my life time, they are on my bucket list.

In 1985 at Gen Con 18 (I believe that was the #) I met Gary Gygax, after having sat next to his daughter in the front row of the audience.  She had introduced me to him after his speech, and he gave me a pass to have dinner with the Dragonlance team.  I had dinner with Tracy and Laura Hickman, Margaret Weis, Douglas Niles, Roger Moore and I believe Jeffrey Grubb.  Our dinner time discussion, mostly prompted by Douglas Niles was about time travel and the impact it could have on a campaign.  Luckily within a week or so of Gen Con I had read a Ray Bradbury or Arthur C Clark story on the subject of time travel, so I didn't feel like a complete idiot.

Thinking of it now, that was 32 years ago!!  Scary how the years, even decades, just fly by.

Quote from: CRKrueger;938584First of all, what is wrong with Papyrus?

Second, to the OP...

How did you pick as your current goto game...Myfarog?  Where did you hear about it, what about it made you think "Hmm, a game written by a convicted murderer and white supremacist? - Let's give it a go!"  Were you a fan of Burzum?
Finally, what about the game pushes the right buttons.  Sure you came for the...whatever...but why are you staying?

Sorry about the delay, I'm just getting to this forum after a busy work week.

First, I don't really have a "Go To" game but if I did it would not be MYFAROG after REH's Conan RPG is released.  It just happens to be the game I recently picked up and found an active, and very good, online community to play with.  

Secondly, as I stated before, I did not know the details about the game or the author only that some poster on the Paizo forums was making a call to arms for the RPG community as a whole to take his word for it that the game should be universally condemned.  That kind of shout from the mountain top always peaks my curiosity.  Being a fairly educated person, and a historian by career, I like to read and decide for myself.

When I see a majority of criticism comes from people who openly admit that they did not read it themselves, well....  If that isn't the height of ignorance, I don't know what is.  It's certainly intellectually lazy, and I'll not take part in group think or group speak.  

I judge the game solely on the game.  As I stated previously, if I dug into the background of every person related to my entertainment Im sure I'd find a lot of objectionable activities.  

Finally, why I still here?  

I not the one assuming that only one game is of interest, to me or anyone else.  This is a RPG dedicated site and I play RPGs on PnP, PC and Online.  I also an amateur writer and I use RPGs to create my characters, the game systems to dictate their actions, and the settings to put them in a genre, time and place.

Quote from: Bluddworth;939478Finally, why I still here?  

I meant staying with Myfarog, not this site.  The controversy caused you to buy it, I can understand that, I've purchased things simply to spite SJWs myself.  What's cool about the system?
Percentile, Dice Pool, d20?
Classes or classless?
Combat have hit points or wounds and hit locations?
Magic is shamanic, rune-based, just like D&D or what?

Quote from: Tristram Evans;939470Walmart employs overseas slave labour for the  production of its goods, chooses its employees from the economically disenfranchised specifically so they can pay them below a living wage and enforce unpaid overtime, and has wreaked more economic damage to North America than any corrupt banker or politician. Walmart has literally directly created ghost towns. Yet people still choose to shop there because to them all that matters is that they get some stuff cheap. Because they have that exact same attitude;it's not their responsibility where their money goes.

Sorry, that dog don't hunt.

Lol - people who don't understand economics.  Wal-mart, by making goods cheap - actually raises the general standard of living.  (Yes - some people were hurt when their stores went out of business too.  That's progress.  Should we disallow factories because they put the old blacksmiths out of work?)

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a03_1230452567

Quote from: CRKrueger;939495I meant staying with Myfarog, not this site.  The controversy caused you to buy it, I can understand that, I've purchased things simply to spite SJWs myself.  What's cool about the system?
Percentile, Dice Pool, d20?
Classes or classless?
Combat have hit points or wounds and hit locations?
Magic is shamanic, rune-based, just like D&D or what?

Ohh...

The first thing that appealed to me about the game was its what I consider to be low fantasy.  Its magic system is based on Northern European mythology, drudaic, spiritualism and ritualistic or ceremonial. Every spell is connected to a natural element, and governed by a Deity or several; it is obviously a polytheistic system as well.  Most magic is summoning, control based or enhancers (charms) to activities.  There are no +4 flaming, vorpal blades of kick-assdom.  There are no wizards shooting lightning bolts from their eyes and fireballs from their asses, etc....

Got to go, be back later to finish response...

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;939496Lol - people who don't understand economics.  Wal-mart, by making goods cheap - actually raises the general standard of living.  (Yes - some people were hurt when their stores went out of business too.  That's progress.  Should we disallow factories because they put the old blacksmiths out of work?)

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a03_1230452567

Walmart only makes those goods cheap by relying on goods purchased in mass quantities from other countries and from paying their employees wages so low that part-timers qualify for medicaid and food stamps.  

We're not paying the cost at the register.
We're paying the cost in the payroll taxes leveled on wage earners to pay for the programs to support Walmart employees.
We're paying the cost in infrastructure due to Walmart's use of roads and ports that they don't get taxed enough to repair.
We're paying the cost socially, educationally and medically in seeing Rural America slowly morph into Walmart Company Town Ghettos while small business owners who don't have the political juice to get tax laws passed in their favor are no longer providing a stable tax base for communities to support decent schools and hospitals.

That Walmart price tag?  Double it and you're maybe closer to the mark.

Quote from: CRKrueger;939500Walmart only makes those goods cheap by relying on goods purchased in mass quantities from other countries and from paying their employees wages so low that part-timers qualify for medicaid and food stamps.  

We're not paying the cost at the register.
We're paying the cost in the payroll taxes leveled on wage earners to pay for the programs to support Walmart employees.
We're paying the cost in infrastructure due to Walmart's use of roads and ports that they don't get taxed enough to repair.
We're paying the cost socially, educationally and medically in seeing Rural America slowly morph into Walmart Company Town Ghettos while small business owners who don't have the political juice to get tax laws passed in their favor are no longer providing a stable tax base for communities to support decent schools and hospitals.

That Walmart price tag?  Double it and you're maybe closer to the mark.

Makes me think my cyberpunk homebrew wasn't far off the mark;).

Quote from: CRKrueger;939500Walmart only makes those goods cheap by relying on goods purchased in mass quantities from other countries and from paying their employees wages so low that part-timers qualify for medicaid and food stamps.  

We're not paying the cost at the register.
We're paying the cost in the payroll taxes leveled on wage earners to pay for the programs to support Walmart employees.
We're paying the cost in infrastructure due to Walmart's use of roads and ports that they don't get taxed enough to repair.
We're paying the cost socially, educationally and medically in seeing Rural America slowly morph into Walmart Company Town Ghettos while small business owners who don't have the political juice to get tax laws passed in their favor are no longer providing a stable tax base for communities to support decent schools and hospitals.

That Walmart price tag?  Double it and you're maybe closer to the mark.

Amen. When politicians talk policy shit about "helping the small businessman" I always ask "what small businessman?" There ain't too many left.

Quote from: CRKrueger;939500Walmart only makes those goods cheap by relying on goods purchased in mass quantities from other countries and from paying their employees wages so low that part-timers qualify for medicaid and food stamps.  

We're not paying the cost at the register.
We're paying the cost in the payroll taxes leveled on wage earners to pay for the programs to support Walmart employees.
We're paying the cost in infrastructure due to Walmart's use of roads and ports that they don't get taxed enough to repair.
We're paying the cost socially, educationally and medically in seeing Rural America slowly morph into Walmart Company Town Ghettos while small business owners who don't have the political juice to get tax laws passed in their favor are no longer providing a stable tax base for communities to support decent schools and hospitals.

That Walmart price tag?  Double it and you're maybe closer to the mark.

1. You're making a lot of assumptions I consider flawed - such as assuming that their workers would magically get better jobs if Wal-mart didn't exist etc.

2. x2 cost (also a BS #) is still probably cheaper than a lot of those mom & pop places would otherwise cost. :P

I was interested in Myfarog for a moment when I first heard of it. Didn't know who Varg was so I even subscribed to him on Youtube for a while and watched his gaming vids. The original version of the game reminded me a bit of Runequest 6 and GURPS... was trying for the sort of gritty quasi-historical fantasy I like.
Reviews by other folks generally seemed positive... so long as they didn't know who Varg was.

My understanding is he's since changed the rules to be far less crunchy... but I'd still like to see a copy and decide for myself if I think it's of any value.

I unsubscribed to his Youtube channel for pretty much the same reasons I stopped reading Pundit's blog... but I don't regret buying Pundit's games.

Quote from: Simlasa;939548I was interested in Myfarog for a moment when I first heard of it. Didn't know who Varg was so I even subscribed to him on Youtube for a while and watched his gaming vids. The original version of the game reminded me a bit of Runequest 6 and GURPS... was trying for the sort of gritty quasi-historical fantasy I like.
Reviews by other folks generally seemed positive... so long as they didn't know who Varg was.

My understanding is he's since changed the rules to be far less crunchy... but I'd still like to see a copy and decide for myself if I think it's of any value.

I unsubscribed to his Youtube channel for pretty much the same reasons I stopped reading Pundit's blog... but I don't regret buying Pundit's games.

The newest edition (2.6) is not as crunchy as 2.4, which I'm told was a vast improvement over 2.0 or 1.0.  The other advantage of 2.6 is that for an additional $1 it combined three supplements, thus saving the buyer over $16.00.  

The other major positive of the game is its online player community on FB.  With well over 600 members and many running game steams and or running events, it really is helpful.  

Not to makes this solely a sales pitch for MYFAROG, but if you are looking for a new game....  REH's Conan RPG is exceptional in every way.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;939496Lol - people who don't understand economics.  Wal-mart, by making goods cheap - actually raises the general standard of living.

lol, a propaganda video. No, sorry, thats not how things work.

http://www.npr.org/news/specials/walmart/
http://www.businessnewsdaily.com/2405-real-cost-walmart.html
http://www.epi.org/publication/the-wal-mart-effect/
https://journalistsresource.org/studies/government/municipal/impact-big-box-retailers-employment-wages-crime-health
https://popularresistance.org/new-report-wal-mart-destroys-local-economy/
http://www.aft.org/periodical/american-educator/spring-2007/how-wal-mart-misshaping-global-economy
http://reurbanist.com/2012/09/the-economic-impact-of-walmart/


But all this is tangential. I was obviously making an analogy; a person's choices in spending money has consequences, whether they'd prefer to remain ignorant of that or not. Replace "walmart" with Monsanto, DuPont, Kraft, or a racist arsonist, the point is that our spending choices are not isolated from ethics.

I believe its important to vote with our dollars.

I also believe I benefit from separating Creation from Creator.

You may not, but I do.

And in 2017, I continue to be an unrepentant monster.

Quote from: The Butcher;938660So is rape. Doesn't mean either of these is a good gaming hook.

Whether it's Cleanse the Mutant! in Dark Heresy, or my OD&D campaign where Dwarves and Elves are locked in a global genocidal war, I personally love Race Wars as a setting component. I love Holy Wars too. I may not enjoy these topics on the nightly news, but I find them great gaming elements.  

I use plenty of rape in games, but I re-skin it as vampires, alien chestbursters, etc. But I know exactly what I'm actually referencing and why it works.  

Quote from: The Butcher;938660If everyone's comfortable with this, well fuck it, I'm in the wrong message board.

MYFROG isn't my cup of tea, but I won't condemn Bluddworth for his interest in the game. Especially as he seems more interested in the system than the creepy setting elements according to his posts so far.

Or maybe Bluddworth's publishing his Mein Kampf setting next week.

Until then, I am happy to judge him only on his posts. It's quite possible Bluddworth hasn't seen the vast cornacopia of OSR RPGs, or MYFROG's take on magic was unique to him.

BTW, RaHoWa has this interesting rule where your weapon levels up. RaHoWa an oddball read and I wonder if it was created by a KKK freak or just as a prank for the lolz.

Quote from: Xanther;938711Admittedly, I don't know what most authors would do with the money they get, but when I know I can't just bury my head in the sand.

All authors spend their money on whiskey and whores.

And nothing else. Especially not rent.

Quote from: trechriron;938749Butcher - you're not on the wrong board. You're on the best board. If people opposed to the author, or people who find the work to be lacking don't post, then theRPGsite becomes another echo chamber. I think all opinions should be openly shared so everyone has the most information to make informed decisions for themselves.

Hell fucking yeah.

Quote from: CRKrueger;938797However, I'm totally with you that a Nordic-Supremacist RPG using a font that was designed to evoke Egypt/Babylon/Assyria, etc. seems a satirically inappropriate choice.

That is hilarious.

Quote from: CRKrueger;938818We don't have Free Speech on this site though.

We have 99.9% Free Speech.

For that, I remain immensely grateful to RPGPundit and his moderators.

And Free Speech means defending the right for the WORST SPEECH to be spoken. That's no fun, and often sickening, but the alternative is unacceptable.

Quote from: CRKrueger;938818The problem is, I'm not really seeing the Crazy Right called on their bullshit to the same degree as the Crazy Left.

Then say something motherfucker!! Hulk smash bitch! :D

Rage with unrelenting fury against the Crazy (Right or Left) if something bothers you. Do NOT stay silent.

We are all going to get our own personal Safe Space soon enough.

It's called a coffin.

Quote from: Bluddworth;939453If I worried about the political, racial or religious views of the sources of my entertainment, I'd have to disconnect the electrical power to my house.

I can't argue with that.

Quote from: Bluddworth;939467I recently picked up a copy of Boot Hill (TSR) and I'm looking to adapt it to the setting of Robert E Howard's El Borak stories which are set in Afghanistan (up until about 1914).

Please start a separate thread all about this. We have a few Boot Hill fans here and lots of REH fans.

Quote from: rgrove0172;939468Awaiting my annual pilgrimage to Cross Plains on the 22nd, REH birthday too.

Please post pics!!!

Quote from: Spinachcat;939597I believe its important to vote with our dollars.

I also believe I benefit from separating Creation from Creator.

You may not, but I do.

I'm not completely against that. For example, I think that waging a war on creators dead for over a century because they hold views that would not be politically correct in modern society is pointless virtue signaling. And if the creation is actually separate, then I don't generally see a creator having different political views as having much meaning. But directly supporting a modern racist whose product intentionally and blatantly pushes and romanticizes racist theories crosses the line into personal responsibility. And if the work itself was actually a "work of art" that had some level of value separate from its moral failings, that would also be something worth making an argument for, but everything I've seen regarding MYFAROG suggests its anything but.

Huh, when people started PMing me a few days ago asking if this place is becoming a neo-nazi refuge, i automatically read the latest threads in Pungency - i had no inkling that this thread was stirring such feelings.

My advice to the increasing number of people who are unhappy with the direction this board seems to be taking is to start your own gaming threads about what you enjoy - and report posts in the RPG section that you feel belong elsewhere on the site.

If the offending posts are in the right part of the site, then jump on them, expose them as the shit they are, laugh at the people posting it, and banish them from polite discourse.

Just for the record, I have never PMed a mod; would never have occurred to me. I made my opinions quite plain in the Pungency stickied thread.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;939616Just for the record, I have never PMed a mod...

Please don't feel the need to say that for the record, nor anyone else feel the need to do the same. The report button is a private interaction with the mods. I do not want to feel compelled to have to say, "it wasn't me!" whenever someone gets 'the grown-ups' involved. Seems too much like a loyalty oaths or 'snitches get stitches' situation or something.

By itself, this thread wouldn't have raised many eyebrows I don't think, it was more about Pungency in general plus that Breitbart thread exploding into full-blown Eugenics Theory and then pops in a new guy "Hi guys how about that Myfarog?" :D

Quote from: CRKrueger;939622By itself, this thread wouldn't have raised many eyebrows I don't think, it was more about Pungency in general plus that Breitbart thread exploding into full-blown Eugenics Theory and then pops in a new guy "Hi guys how about that Myfarog?" :D

Breitbart (snort). If anything exemplifies our world of "assume a stance, find shit to back it up," that shitpile does.

The biggest mistake we ever made was letting the average internet user become the evaluator of their own news. The journalism class used to be trained to do this sort of thing, to include arguing the various viewpoints with some semblance of expertise. The fairness doctrine MADE media outlets provide equal time for opposing views. Now they're just all thrown out there, with no one thinking about, chewing over, or digesting the stew. It's just a bunch of monkeys tossing fudge cakes back and forth, led by folks like the kind people at Breitbart (aka "Bitchhard").

(P.S. Is "Pungency" a ref to "Tangency?")

Quote from: cranebump;939625Breitbart (snort). If anything exemplifies our world of "assume a stance, find shit to back it up," that shitpile does.

The biggest mistake we ever made was letting the average internet user become the evaluator of their own news. The journalism class used to be trained to do this sort of thing, to include arguing the various viewpoints with some semblance of expertise. The fairness doctrine MADE media outlets provide equal time for opposing views. Now they're just all thrown out there, with no one thinking about, chewing over, or digesting the stew. It's just a bunch of monkeys tossing fudge cakes back and forth, led by folks like the kind people at Breitbart (aka "Bitchhard").

(P.S. Is "Pungency" a ref to "Tangency?")

Pungency is what OHT calls the Pundit's Forum, our own Tangency. :D

Quote from: CRKrueger;939629Pungency is what OHT calls the Pundit's Forum, our own Tangency. :D

Ha! Apt.

Quote from: Spinachcat;939598We are all going to get our own personal Safe Space soon enough.

It's called a coffin.

Can't argue with that, but I'd like to put it in my sig on TBP:D!

Quote from: Tristram Evans;939602I'm not completely against that. For example, I think that waging a war on creators dead for over a century because they hold views that would not be politically correct in modern society is pointless virtue signaling. And if the creation is actually separate, then I don't generally see a creator having different political views as having much meaning. But directly supporting a modern racist whose product intentionally and blatantly pushes and romanticizes racist theories crosses the line into personal responsibility. And if the work itself was actually a "work of art" that had some level of value separate from its moral failings, that would also be something worth making an argument for, but everything I've seen regarding MYFAROG suggests its anything but.

"Personal responsibility because you bought a game out of curiosity" is a statement best read with the booming voice of a people's prosecutor.

Also, purchasing someone's game doesn't mean you support him, her or the views the book might be defending;).

First off, welcome!

Quote from: Bluddworth;939551Not to makes this solely a sales pitch for MYFAROG, but if you are looking for a new game....  REH's Conan RPG is exceptional in every way.

Secondly, uhh... no it's not.  It's story game bordgamey crap that parades itself as the ultimate REH RPG when in actuality its driving mechanics are contrary to REH's worldview.  Yeah they've got REH scholars, and some great RPG writers whom I admire, and fantastic art, but Modiphius is using the IP to promote their cheesy narrative house system rather than crafting a system to fit the literature.  It's a square peg for a round hole...  IMHO anyway.  But I've already argued that point to death elsewhere.

I don't know what MYFROG or whatever is, nor do I condone any archaic notions about cultural or genetic superiority, but I have to admit that social-Darwinist themes of conflict between ethnicity, religion, and culture are a major component of REH's Hyborian age.  I think those make fine themes for gaming in a fantasy setting, especially if you want to relive the delusions of 1932 as well as made up antediluvian history, even if those themes are dangerously inappropriate (and flat out wrong) in the real world.

Quote from: AsenRG;939678"Personal responsibility because you bought a game out of curiosity" is a statement best read with the booming voice of a people's prosecutor.

I believe the story was "some people said the game was racist, so I decided to get it"

QuoteAlso, purchasing someone's game doesn't mean you support him, her or the views the book might be defending

doesn't it literally mean that?

Quote from: Tristram Evans;939689...

doesn't it literally mean that?

Really? WTF?

You are supporting them financially perhaps. But buying a game and even playing it does not mean you support IRL views of anyone really. For example, in supers games there can be tons of collateral damage, yet it hardly comes up as problematic. Wars have costs on both sides - see the "1 million dead, never forget" internet meme. Playing Star Wars means you support genocide? Mass murder? Slavery? This goes back to the controversy of the Hentai Rape game. So, if I buy it I support rape? Or maybe specifically tentacled monster rape?

This creates the same bullshit elitist attitude where the regressives get to decide who is in the "cool kids" club and who is not. It's bigoted faux-intellectualism at its worse.

"Because I'm so enlightened, and I am pure, and I only write/design games with the kindest of intentions, I'm qualified to judge the intentions YAY even the character of those whom I judge. Let me help you decide what good people to support."

How do we know this ding dong is really a white supremacist? Because he pontificates on the internet? How do we know the Pundit is a conservative rabble-rouser who talks like Bill "The Butcher" Cutter? How do we know if Donald Trump really wants to be president? Because they say so? None of these people could be playing a part in the stage of life? Impossible. No one dramatizes their public interactions in an attempt to garner attention. Of course, you are the genius who can parse all true intentions by reading internet fora.

In summary, NO it doesn't mean you support the authors opinion/views/ideals. You can read Mein Kompf with an academic distance and not buy into ANY of the ideals espoused within. We have brains. We have the ability to think. To reason. To determine.

If you read MyFarog and come away thinking "wow, it's OK to be racially superior. I AM better than everyone because I'm white." it has fuck all to do with the setting. You are fucking racist. A goddamn RPG has nothing to do with it.

Quote from: trechriron;939693Really? WTF?

You are supporting them financially perhaps.

Yes, that's exactly what I meant

*still sheltering my Maztica .pdfs* :o

Anyway, my thoughts on "villainous content" and sapient friction... Kinda hard to be a hero in a world of only protagonists. :D

Quote from: Tristram Evans;939689I believe the story was "some people said the game was racist, so I decided to get it"



doesn't it literally mean that?

A mind without curiosity is a stone by another name.

When one person claims something should be banned based on one of the most frivolous charges in our modern era, the charge of racism, it makes me curious to see and judge for myself.  To do otherwise is closed minded and really quite ignorant.  

Upon reviewing the game and even playing it with a dedicated community of players, I have found no such racism in the game or certainly not in the players of it.  

I once described the differences of race in MYFAROG like the differences between an elf and a human in any fantasy RPG.  They elf is almost always better with long bows, and has night vision, so would we declare that it is racist against humans who do not have those advantages?  

The other attack on MYFAROG is that it is incredibly mysoginistic, based primarily on the fact that female characters get a -2 to their initial strength roll, and a +1 to charisma.  Oh noooos....  Hey geniuses, women have up to 40% less upper body strength based on numerous scientific studies and medical journals.  This of course allows for the exception to the rule, but to the SJW snowflakes, well let's not let facts get in the way of their path to their safe space.  

The same people have tried to tarnish or even ban discussing writers like Robert E Howard and HP Lovecraft.

Quote from: Bluddworth;939877A mind without curiosity is a stone by another name.

When one person claims something should be banned based on one of the most frivolous charges in our modern era, the charge of racism, it makes me curious to see and judge for myself.  To do otherwise is closed minded and really quite ignorant.  

I don't dispute that, and I'm against "banning", but 5 minutes on google confirms directly that the game was written by a white supremacist and specifically contains those ideals.

QuoteUpon reviewing the game and even playing it with a dedicated community of players, I have found no such racism in the game or certainly not in the players of it.

Colour me incredulous. I've seen the game's writeups on the blatant proxies for Jews, Africans and Arabs, and the role they play within the context of the gameworld.

QuoteI once described the differences of race in MYFAROG like the differences between an elf and a human in any fantasy RPG.  They elf is almost always better with long bows, and has night vision, so would we declare that it is racist against humans who do not have those advantages?

Elves are fantasies and they don't directly correlate to any real world race. Just as when I hate it when regressives go on about orcs or drows representing minorities, MYFAROG presents the flip side of the problem of confusing the real world with fantasy. Having a fantastical made up race that is inherently evil is fine, presenting a real world race as evil within the context of a fantasy is pushing the boundaries of taste and any suspicions that it might be an innocent "mistake" go out the window with any knowledge of the author and his views. VV is a racist who specifically created a fantasy context that justifies that racism.

QuoteThe other attack on MYFAROG is that it is incredibly mysoginistic, based primarily on the fact that female characters get a -2 to their initial strength roll, and a +1 to charisma.  Oh noooos....  Hey geniuses, women have up to 40% less upper body strength based on numerous scientific studies and medical journals.

I was done with the game when it came to racism, I didn't really bother looking into whether or not it was misogynistic, but honestly? That sort of stuff got debunked by the gaming community 30 years ago when people proposed similar ability adjustments for D&D. It just makes the game sound juvenile.

QuoteThe same people have tried to tarnish or even ban discussing writers like Robert E Howard and HP Lovecraft.

There's two huge differences there....those are both dead people who lived a century ago at a time when society had different views. Lovecraft was a racist. But the racism in his stories is incidental, generally besides the point of the narratives, and buying his books nowadays doesn't support racism, and an intelligent discerning reader is quite capable of looking at those elements in his stories, dismissing them for the ignorance they represent, and still enjoying the other aspects of the story. And secondly, Lovecraft and Howard created works of art, and art has a value outside of temporal politics and issues. MYFAROG is not a work of art, and I have yet to even see any indication that its even a good game.

Quote from: Madprofessor;939686First off, welcome!



Secondly, uhh... no it's not.  It's story game bordgamey crap that parades itself as the ultimate REH RPG when in actuality its driving mechanics are contrary to REH's worldview.  Yeah they've got REH scholars, and some great RPG writers whom I admire, and fantastic art, but Modiphius is using the IP to promote their cheesy narrative house system rather than crafting a system to fit the literature.  It's a square peg for a round hole...  IMHO anyway.  But I've already argued that point to death elsewhere.

Linkage? First I've really hear of the game and would like to know more, good and bad. So any rants or reviews you can point me towards would be appreciated.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;939899Linkage? First I've really hear of the game and would like to know more, good and bad. So any rants or reviews you can point me towards would be appreciated.

One might say that it was a substantial topic of discussion around here about a year ago.  Here are links to the two main threads about it:

New Conan game on KS (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?33988-New-Conan-game-on-KS)
Conan 2d20 RPG: Questions for Jason Durall (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?33997-Conan-2d20-RPG-Questions-for-Jason-Durall)

CRK also did a playtest review of the Kickstarter demo materials:

Playtest: Conan 2d20 - To Race the Thunder (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?34079-Playtest-Conan-2d20-To-Race-the-Thunder)

Quote from: Madprofessor;939686First off, welcome!



Secondly, uhh... no it's not.  It's story game bordgamey crap that parades itself as the ultimate REH RPG when in actuality its driving mechanics are contrary to REH's worldview.  Yeah they've got REH scholars, and some great RPG writers whom I admire, and fantastic art, but Modiphius is using the IP to promote their cheesy narrative house system rather than crafting a system to fit the literature.  It's a square peg for a round hole...  IMHO anyway.  But I've already argued that point to death elsewhere.

I don't know what MYFROG or whatever is, nor do I condone any archaic notions about cultural or genetic superiority, but I have to admit that social-Darwinist themes of conflict between ethnicity, religion, and culture are a major component of REH's Hyborian age.  I think those make fine themes for gaming in a fantasy setting, especially if you want to relive the delusions of 1932 as well as made up antediluvian history, even if those themes are dangerously inappropriate (and flat out wrong) in the real world.

If ypu replace "real" with "modern" I'm with you. It's rediculous to hold past cultures to our current ethical views.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;939689I believe the story was "some people said the game was racist, so I decided to get it"

If you don't believe said people (and I'm inclined to be doubtful, myself), that's actually the logical thing to do.

Quotedoesn't it literally mean that?

Literally, maybe, but I find that something like $10 (which would probably go to someone who has purchased it before and not the author) are a negligible amount of "support". This fits nicely with the "verifying whether the people that call it racist are right, or overreacting yet again".

Quote from: Tristram Evans;939898Elves are fantasies and they don't directly correlate to any real world race.

Actually, the elves in most fantasy do correlate to real-world races. Not always to the same races, mind you, but they do correlate. I have no trouble naming equivalents for the elves in Dragonlance*, Dragon Age**, and a local game (though that one has never been translated into English).

*Frigging pop-culture Japanese, if you're wondering. Because all Japanese were ninja in the pop-culture of the time
**Split between "travellers" (the wild ones) and "Jews" (the ones in the cities).

QuoteHaving a fantastical made up race that is inherently evil is fine, presenting a real world race as evil within the context of a fantasy is pushing the boundaries of taste and any suspicions that it might be an innocent "mistake" go out the window with any knowledge of the author and his views. VV is a racist who specifically created a fantasy context that justifies that racism.

Maybe. But I rather enjoy reading such books and then finding in their text proof that contradicts what the author probably intended.
(As an example, my reading of the Chronicles of Gor is that they're a convoluted proof that women can very well be at least equal to men in combat and spy activities...though most aren't, because it's harder for them to pass the initial stages. Funny enough, that fits with the best research on those questions that I have discovered over the years).

QuoteThere's two huge differences there....those are both dead people who lived a century ago at a time when society had different views. Lovecraft was a racist. But the racism in his stories is incidental, generally besides the point of the narratives, and buying his books nowadays doesn't support racism, and an intelligent discerning reader is quite capable of looking at those elements in his stories, dismissing them for the ignorance they represent, and still enjoying the other aspects of the story. And secondly, Lovecraft and Howard created works of art, and art has a value outside of temporal politics and issues. MYFAROG is not a work of art, and I have yet to even see any indication that its even a good game.

And that's the most damning accusation against MyFrog, of everything you've written;).

Quote from: Bluddworth;939877A mind without curiosity is a stone by another name.

When one person claims something should be banned based on one of the most frivolous charges in our modern era, the charge of racism, it makes me curious to see and judge for myself.  To do otherwise is closed minded and really quite ignorant.  

Upon reviewing the game and even playing it with a dedicated community of players, I have found no such racism in the game or certainly not in the players of it.  

I once described the differences of race in MYFAROG like the differences between an elf and a human in any fantasy RPG.  They elf is almost always better with long bows, and has night vision, so would we declare that it is racist against humans who do not have those advantages?  

The other attack on MYFAROG is that it is incredibly mysoginistic, based primarily on the fact that female characters get a -2 to their initial strength roll, and a +1 to charisma.  Oh noooos....  Hey geniuses, women have up to 40% less upper body strength based on numerous scientific studies and medical journals.  This of course allows for the exception to the rule, but to the SJW snowflakes, well let's not let facts get in the way of their path to their safe space.  

The same people have tried to tarnish or even ban discussing writers like Robert E Howard and HP Lovecraft.

I think, if your goal is to change minds or win allies, this is probably not beneficial. If you would like to convince us that MYFAROG is not what we might fear it to be, then concrete examples of how it isn't would be helpful. This is more along the lines of excuses on why it's okay that it is what we fear it is. I'm pretty sure we all know what level of differences between male and female characters we find acceptable and whether we think racial differences within real world races is equivalent to racial differences between humans and elves. This is more along the lines of poisoning the well of your theoretical opposition--they're the ones who are ignorant, they are SJWs, they are snowflakes, they want their safe space, they want to ban discussing REH and HPL. Throwing in racism okay because elves and science of upper body strength there, and this just looks like we're playing buzzword bingo.

I really want to have a mature, reasoned conversation on what this game is, whether the author's toxic belief system bleeds into it, whether any that does impacts the game, and what positive qualities the game might have (potentially despite this bleed-in). This is not evidence towards the possibility of that happening.

Quote from: rgrove0172;939942If ypu replace "real" with "modern" I'm with you. It's rediculous to hold past cultures to our current ethical views.

I agree with this and I have used the term "Chronocentrism" to describe it.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;939968I think, if your goal is to change minds or win allies, this is probably not beneficial. If you would like to convince us that MYFAROG is not what we might fear it to be, then concrete examples of how it isn't would be helpful. This is more along the lines of excuses on why it's okay that it is what we fear it is. I'm pretty sure we all know what level of differences between male and female characters we find acceptable and whether we think racial differences within real world races is equivalent to racial differences between humans and elves. This is more along the lines of poisoning the well of your theoretical opposition--they're the ones who are ignorant, they are SJWs, they are snowflakes, they want their safe space, they want to ban discussing REH and HPL. Throwing in racism okay because elves and science of upper body strength there, and this just looks like we're playing buzzword bingo.

I really want to have a mature, reasoned conversation on what this game is, whether the author's toxic belief system bleeds into it, whether any that does impacts the game, and what positive qualities the game might have (potentially despite this bleed-in). This is not evidence towards the possibility of that happening.

I have on several occasions explained the "strong" points of the game's systems, mechanics and even its themes.  I have yet to see, or have used any other race used as the adversary in the my playing experience, as there are plenty of reasons to act against the seemingly 90+% of the population that is Thulean (Nordic tribes).  I view it like RPGing an episode of the History Channel's Vikings, with a bit of REH and Lovecraft thrown in for the underlying conspiracy.

I don't know what else to say other than, I don't expect to "win over" those who have not read the books or analyzed the game specifically as a game.  There will always be those who will take the word of others as gospel, I'm not one of those.  

I'm wondering if REH's Conan RPG will get the same backlash, since its "fictitious" nationalities have real word counterparts.

Quote from: Bluddworth;939973I have on several occasions explained the "strong" points of the game's systems, mechanics and even its themes.

In fact, your explanations of mechanics have been rather sparse in my book. I can't even tell from them if it's using 2d6, d20 or d100, or some dicepool, for example. Am I missing something?

QuoteI have yet to see, or have used any other race used as the adversary in the my playing experience, as there are plenty of reasons to act against the seemingly 90+% of the population that is Thulean (Nordic tribes).  I view it like RPGing an episode of the History Channel's Vikings, with a bit of REH and Lovecraft thrown in for the underlying conspiracy.

I'd expect that. After all, who cares about the orcs?

QuoteI don't know what else to say other than, I don't expect to "win over" those who have not read the books or analyzed the game specifically as a game.  There will always be those who will take the word of others as gospel, I'm not one of those.  

And that's good for you. But you could be more forthcoming with info on the game, given that you're maybe the only one to have read it (and almost definitely the only one to have played it).

QuoteI'm wondering if REH's Conan RPG will get the same backlash, since its "fictitious" nationalities have real word counterparts.

I suspect VV is nowhere close to REH in artistic merit, when it comes to prose:). Also, contemporaries always get a harsher treatment.

And it also helps that if there's a backlash, the collective "fuck off" of the REH fans would be strong enough to blow the objectors away:D!
Then again, if you were to attack REH's Conan RPG, you could start with the mechanics. Some people have already. (I readily admit that 2d20 wouldn't be my first choice, either, but I can at least live with it, and see the demands for a particular system as born out of a sense of entitlement. Seems some people don't see it that way, though;)).

Quote from: rgrove0172;939942If ypu replace "real" with "modern" I'm with you.

It is a bit nit-picky, but yes, I agree with you.  "Modern" is a better word choice, and substituting it with "real" was a bit subconsciously chronocentric of me.  If you will forgive me, then I won't bother to mention the words "ypu" or "rediculous" in your reply.(sorry, couldn't resist the temptation to nit-pick back :))

QuoteIt's rediculous to hold past cultures to our current ethical views.

It is even more "rediculous" to hold fictional cultures to our current ethical views - whatever those may be.

Still, there is a point where I can see that fictional cultures could be abrasive or offensive to some.  Howard's stories are full of misogyny and racism, a product of his time.  Some people can separate themselves from these perspectives and enjoy the stories, characters and themes, some can't.

Quote from: AsenRG;939988Some people have already. (I readily admit that 2d20 wouldn't be my first choice, either, but I can at least live with it, and see the demands for a particular system as born out of a sense of entitlement. Seems some people don't see it that way, though;)).

Pretty sure "Oh fuck, not ANOTHER classic IP fucked over with a narrative Jay Little system." isn't a "Demand for a specific system."  But enjoy that altered reality. ;)

Quote from: Bluddworth;939877one of the most frivolous charges in our modern era, the charge of racism,

Tells me all I need to know.

In the words of Master Yoda, "My wrinkled green pee hole, you may tongue."

Racist asshole.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;939997Tells me all I need to know.

In the words of Master Yoda, "My wrinkled green pee hole, you may tongue."

Racist asshole.

And yet Gary and D&D get charged with that today.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;939997Tells me all I need to know.

In the words of Master Yoda, "My wrinkled green pee hole, you may tongue."

Racist asshole.

If I were racist I would not want any contact with Yoda, and if his pee whole is wrinkled may I suggest viagra?  

I think race is generally not on most people's minds in their average minute to minute day.  Issues of race, especially negative ones are frequently exaggerated, and even often fabricated by the media.  It has gotten to the point that if you disagree with someone's idea, it must pass the race test first.  If you're of a different race than the other, than your disagreement is race based and not idea based.  

I would not fall within the revered ethnic or religious group of any white supremist group, being mostly of Italian ethnicity and a Roman Catholic (although not devoutly so).  

But, that aside, you prove my point in frivolously throwing the charge out there.  Cheers!

MYFAROG uses a D6 system, which are applied to a Difficulty Score and then modified by attributes, attribute modifiers or skill modifiers.

For instance, a fighter has a Defensive Value of 11.  I have a Strength of 17 so that gives me +2 to melee.  I have to roll 3d6 and add 2, and beat an 11.  If I roll exactly 11 it hits, but not very well, and I do half damage.  If I hit with a 15 or better I get an exceptional hit and add + 2 to damage.  The system is simplified by having just two rolls, one to hit and one for damage.  All defense and damage resistance is passive and functions as modifiers.

In 2D20 system that I have played, dodging and parrying are active defenses, and are rolled after the attack rolls, and before the damage rolls.  Also, hit location is factored in for individual armor pieces, something I believe MYFAROG is lacking but intend to use.  

What I like most about MYFAROG is the character generation.  There are videos up on them, but I'll repost a description of one of my characters here.  I'll also include my character for REH's Conan RPG so that you can compare.  Both systems I prefer over D&D 5E btw.

Quote from: CRKrueger;939994Pretty sure "Oh fuck, not ANOTHER classic IP fucked over with a narrative Jay Little system." isn't a "Demand for a specific system."  But enjoy that altered reality. ;)

A joke, it was, but dwell on that, let's not, Green One;)!

(Your demand was for "one of a type of systems" instead of one from another type, but the "entitlement" part was just inspired by reading another thread, PM me if you want to guess which one).

Quote from: Bluddworth;940030I would not fall within the revered ethnic or religious group of any white supremist group, being mostly of Italian ethnicity and a Roman Catholic (although not devoutly so).  

Well, neo-fascists would love to have you join, I guess:D!

Quote from: AsenRG;939952Actually, the elves in most fantasy do correlate to real-world races. Not always to the same races, mind you, but they do correlate. I have no trouble naming equivalents for the elves in Dragonlance* ....

*Frigging pop-culture Japanese, if you're wondering. Because all Japanese were ninja in the pop-culture of the time

    Hmm...I'm rather familiar with Dragonlance, and I'm not seeing it. Now, I was a little too young for much of the ninja craze of the 80s--I was only exposed to the offshoots of it in GI Joe and TMNT--but I really don't see the parallels. Dragonlance elves always struck me as the snobbish rich or high school preppies. :)

Quote from: Bluddworth;940034MYFAROG uses a D6 system, which are applied to a Difficulty Score and then modified by attributes, attribute modifiers or skill modifiers.

For instance, a fighter has a Defensive Value of 11.  I have a Strength of 17 so that gives me +2 to melee.  I have to roll 3d6 and add 2, and beat an 11.  If I roll exactly 11 it hits, but not very well, and I do half damage.  If I hit with a 15 or better I get an exceptional hit and add + 2 to damage.  The system is simplified by having just two rolls, one to hit and one for damage.  All defense and damage resistance is passive and functions as modifiers.

uh... wait... Does this take into account the bell curve? Because rolling 3d6 means that you are going to get alot of rolls at the peak and very very few at the far ends.

Quote from: Madprofessor;939993It is a bit nit-picky, but yes, I agree with you.  "Modern" is a better word choice, and substituting it with "real" was a bit subconsciously chronocentric of me.  If you will forgive me, then I won't bother to mention the words "ypu" or "rediculous" in your reply.(sorry, couldn't resist the temptation to nit-pick back :))



It is even more "rediculous" to hold fictional cultures to our current ethical views - whatever those may be.

Still, there is a point where I can see that fictional cultures could be abrasive or offensive to some.  Howard's stories are full of misogyny and racism, a product of his time.  Some people can separate themselves from these perspectives and enjoy the stories, characters and themes, some can't.

I wasn't nit picking at your choice of words rather I thought we were of a fundamentally different perception.

Ive heard many who criticize previous generations and other cultures for their behavior when measured against our current, modern, western ethics and it always amazes me. Calling the Egyptians evil for having slaves is similar to calling us barbarians for eating chicken. Perhaps someday we will adopt an ethical standard whereby the rights of barnyard fowl survival supersedes our right to eat them but it hasn't happened yet and therefor the criticism doesn't apply. Calling Thomas Jefferson a racists for example is just as misplaced in my opinion. Behavior has to be measured against the standards of the culture and time in which it occurs. 15th century men who belittled women were not chauvinists, 18th century whites that believed blacks were inferior weren't bigots. By today's standards their beliefs and treatment of their fellow men was insufferable but at the time? Perfectly acceptable behavior, you cant condemn them for it.

Quote from: Omega;940066uh... wait... Does this take into account the bell curve? Because rolling 3d6 means that you are going to get alot of rolls at the peak and very very few at the far ends.

Tell that to the guys that ran through two of my adventures.  Every time they had to roll a Religious Tradition or Rune Lore roll they rolled a 5 or less, and on two occasions one guy rolled a natural 1-1-1.  It really became quite funny that they rolled terribly for their strongest skills.

But the 3D6 system as you say does produce an average result of between an 11 and 12, and the typical difficulty used is generally between an 8 - 10 - 12.  I did throw a few challenges of difficulty 14 at the players, and one player rolled a modified 21.

As promised, here is my MYFAROG character:


Torsten Aagaard of the tribe, Sipparii, and the birthplace of Stemsound, Agidir is of the Thulean race. By the age of 18, he was trained as a young warrior and raised in the life stance of Asatru. Being a fairly large man, 6' 1" and 193 lbs, his Strength (17) and hearty Constitution (14) is not unexpected. His Dexterity (14) does however come with a bit of surprise, as does his sharp minded Intelligence (13). He has a strong Willpower (12) but that is only at the upper levels of what is common among his people. Only his Charisma (10) is truly average, but not due to any lack of force of personality, but due to a stubbornness and being somewhat abrasive.

Torsten has a naturally athletic talent, which allows him to maintain an extraordinary tempo in strenuous activities and particularly in combat. His only flaw goes back to his stubborn and at times selfish behavior, where he puts his own needs ahead of others. This character flaw has lead to his current status of being deemed an outlaw, which will be explained later.

Torsten hails from the port town of Stemsound. That being said, it was only natural that he would be raised and trained in Seamanship, and Navigation. Along with his training as a warrior, it was likely that he would take to joining raiding parties on the long, "Dragon" boats that his people would be famed for. It was during one such a raid that he ran afoul of a fellow companion, who held higher standing than he back in their town. A false allegation of incompetence, that supposedly lead to the death of one of their companions, was taken as fact even though no evidence was provided. The law required that Torsten serve a punishment of a one month and one day term as a temporary thrall. Torsten refused, even with the threat that it would tarnish his family name, and instead he departed an outlaw with personal pride in his heart and a vow of vengeance on his lips. He swore that he would return one day, and slay the petite lord (at the time) that so slandered him. Thus brings his three major flaws together, his selfishness lead to forming a powerful enemy and his outlaw status.

If encountered in the early part of his career, Torsten will be sailing with a notorious outlaw raider and pirate, Torvic "The Grey Hand". He is typically wearing a Fur Shirt (Armor 1) and carrying a Wooden Shield (AV 1), along with three weapons: A Battle Axe; Belaying Pin, and a Throwing Axe.


[Note] This character backstory, including origins, attributes, and flaws were all randomly rolled and the story and description was pieced together from there. Only his profession was chosen, but only after the random attributes steered me towards that build.

This character was generated using the following rules: MYFAROG Core Book 2.6; Curses & Gifts (Supplement); Dues Ex Machina (Supplement); and The Coming (Supplement and Alternative Setting).

Quote from: AsenRG;940035Your demand was for "one of a type of systems" instead of one from another type

No, I demanded nothing from Modiphius, the designers or the game system.  Commenting or even criticizing is not demanding by any stretch of the definition, no matter how heated the discussions of the points of criticism becomes.

Quote from: Bluddworth;940079But the 3D6 system as you say does produce an average result of between an 11 and 12, and the typical difficulty used is generally between an 8 - 10 - 12.

3d6 averages 10.5 - which (last I checked) is not between 11 & 12.  (3.5 average each)  It's on a bell curve, so chances are nearly 50% (48.14% to be exact) that any given roll is 9-12.

Quote from: Bluddworth;940079Tell that to the guys that ran through two of my adventures.  Every time they had to roll a Religious Tradition or Rune Lore roll they rolled a 5 or less, and on two occasions one guy rolled a natural 1-1-1.  It really became quite funny that they rolled terribly for their strongest skills.

But the 3D6 system as you say does produce an average result of between an 11 and 12, and the typical difficulty used is generally between an 8 - 10 - 12.  I did throw a few challenges of difficulty 14 at the players, and one player rolled a modified 21.

OK, so it's a 3d6 bell curve. The previous post left me wondering whether you're rolling 3d6 for everything, or (1+a number dependent on attribute) d6s, for example;).

BTW, when you say "an average result of 11-12", are you including a +1 modifier that your PC has? Because the average result of 3d6 is 10-11 (with a very strong likelihood of 9-12, which is why most OSR systems give you a +0 for Attributes in that range:D).

Quote from: CRKrueger;940094No, I demanded nothing from Modiphius, the designers or the game system.  Commenting or even criticizing is not demanding by any stretch of the definition, no matter how heated the discussions of the points of criticism becomes.

Ajokeisajokegreenonereallystopyourestartingtolooktouchyfeely.

Also, apologies if I've misunderstood you, but I think you asked them what are the odds for double-statting the books for a different system? Or was it Mad Professor?

Quote from: Bluddworth;940081As promised, here is my MYFAROG character:


Torsten Aagaard of the tribe, Sipparii, and the birthplace of Stemsound, Agidir is of the Thulean race. By the age of 18, he was trained as a young warrior and raised in the life stance of Asatru. Being a fairly large man, 6' 1" and 193 lbs, his Strength (17) and hearty Constitution (14) is not unexpected. His Dexterity (14) does however come with a bit of surprise, as does his sharp minded Intelligence (13). He has a strong Willpower (12) but that is only at the upper levels of what is common among his people. Only his Charisma (10) is truly average, but not due to any lack of force of personality, but due to a stubbornness and being somewhat abrasive.

Torsten has a naturally athletic talent, which allows him to maintain an extraordinary tempo in strenuous activities and particularly in combat. His only flaw goes back to his stubborn and at times selfish behavior, where he puts his own needs ahead of others. This character flaw has lead to his current status of being deemed an outlaw, which will be explained later.

Torsten hails from the port town of Stemsound. That being said, it was only natural that he would be raised and trained in Seamanship, and Navigation. Along with his training as a warrior, it was likely that he would take to joining raiding parties on the long, "Dragon" boats that his people would be famed for. It was during one such a raid that he ran afoul of a fellow companion, who held higher standing than he back in their town. A false allegation of incompetence, that supposedly lead to the death of one of their companions, was taken as fact even though no evidence was provided. The law required that Torsten serve a punishment of a one month and one day term as a temporary thrall. Torsten refused, even with the threat that it would tarnish his family name, and instead he departed an outlaw with personal pride in his heart and a vow of vengeance on his lips. He swore that he would return one day, and slay the petite lord (at the time) that so slandered him. Thus brings his three major flaws together, his selfishness lead to forming a powerful enemy and his outlaw status.

If encountered in the early part of his career, Torsten will be sailing with a notorious outlaw raider and pirate, Torvic "The Grey Hand". He is typically wearing a Fur Shirt (Armor 1) and carrying a Wooden Shield (AV 1), along with three weapons: A Battle Axe; Belaying Pin, and a Throwing Axe.


[Note] This character backstory, including origins, attributes, and flaws were all randomly rolled and the story and description was pieced together from there. Only his profession was chosen, but only after the random attributes steered me towards that build.

This character was generated using the following rules: MYFAROG Core Book 2.6; Curses & Gifts (Supplement); Dues Ex Machina (Supplement); and The Coming (Supplement and Alternative Setting).

What is the alternative setting in The Coming supplement like;)?

> Notoriously racist murderer and arsonist scumbag writes RPG
> RPG is widely reported to feature blatantly racist content
> OP's "curiosity" is piqued, goes and buys the game

Yeah, business as usual, nothing fishy here.

Well, you can also look at it from the other side.

Members of a forum known for overreacting on rights issues call for a boycott/ban of a book because racism.
OP's curiosity is piqued, goes and buys book to see if they're overreacting yet again.
OP finds he likes it and plays it.

Yeah, nothing fishy in that chain. And this is the chain the OP narrated.

Quote from: Bluddworth;939973I have yet to see, or have used any other race used as the adversary in the my playing experience, as there are plenty of reasons to act against the seemingly 90+% of the population that is Thulean (Nordic tribes).

Have you had Koparmenn or Eirmenn as player characters at your table?

Quote from: AsenRG;940124Ajokeisajokegreenonereallystopyourestartingtolooktouchyfeely.

I'll stop when you will.  If I'm looking sensitive, you're looking passive aggressive, continually trying to push your incorrect fact through without correction, claiming it's no big deal because Joke.

Quote from: AsenRG;940124Also, apologies if I've misunderstood you, but I think you asked them what are the odds for double-statting the books for a different system? Or was it Mad Professor?

You didn't misunderstand us, however you are clearly misunderstanding English because "Is there any chance of another system conversion like was done with Achtung Cthulhu?" is not a demand.

Quote from: CRKrueger;940177I'll stop when you will.  If I'm looking sensitive, you're looking passive aggressive, continually trying to push your incorrect fact through without correction, claiming it's no big deal because Joke.

It wouldn't be a big deal even if it wasn't a joke. The only thing that makes it different is your reaction:).

QuoteYou didn't misunderstand us, however you are clearly misunderstanding English because "Is there any chance of another system conversion like was done with Achtung Cthulhu?" is not a demand.

Yeah, right, you know it's just a mild form of it;)!

Quote from: cranebump;939625The fairness doctrine MADE media outlets provide equal time for opposing views. Now they're just all thrown out there, with no one thinking about, chewing over, or digesting the stew. It's just a bunch of monkeys tossing fudge cakes back and forth,

Please start a thread discussing the Fairness Doctrine on Pungency!!

Quote from: AsenRG;939678Can't argue with that, but I'd like to put it in my sig on TBP:D!

Go for it!

Quote from: AsenRG;939678"Personal responsibility because you bought a game out of curiosity" is a statement best read with the booming voice of a people's prosecutor.

Even better if its a judge from the Puritan era. Then we can all holler back that Bluddworth is a witch!

And you what we do to witches!!

Quote from: Opaopajr;939746*still sheltering my Maztica .pdfs* :o

Maztica should be a rum drink.

Quote from: Bluddworth;939973I'm wondering if REH's Conan RPG will get the same backlash, since its "fictitious" nationalities have real word counterparts.

The pro-REH faction will declare "its okay to like problematic things" and the anti-REH faction will pee their pants.

Quote from: Omega;940066uh... wait... Does this take into account the bell curve? Because rolling 3d6 means that you are going to get alot of rolls at the peak and very very few at the far ends.

Same as GURPS and HERO system.

Traveller's 2D6 system has these issues as well (to a lesser extent).

But fans of 2D6 and 3D6 systems feel the "lot of rolls at peak" is a feature, not a bug because of the "swinginess" of D20.

Quote from: Spinachcat;940261Please start a thread discussing the Fairness Doctrine on Pungency!!

But...I'm afraid...:-)

Quote from: Black Vulmea;940158Have you had Koparmenn or Eirmenn as player characters at your table?

I haven't yet, but I would.  I don't limit the players with the kinds of characters they choose to play.  I know a few players who have said they are in fact looking to play them.  

I could see writing an adventure specific for them, perhaps some kind of quests that make all Thuleans face a common foe.  Might be cool to do.  However, my current campaign idea is to introduce elements of the Howardian / Lovecraft Cthulhu Mythos into the realms of Thule.  

"The little People" and "The Worms of the Earth" are two of my inspirations for this campaign.

Quote from: AsenRG;940240Yeah, right, you know it's just a mild form of it;)!

Why are so many people lately bucking for Sommerjon's job? ;)

Quote from: AsenRG;940124Also, apologies if I've misunderstood you, but I think you asked them what are the odds for double-statting the books for a different system? Or was it Mad Professor?

I did pray and beg for a multi-system approach.  It is something that Modiphius had done before.  I didn't feel like there was any crime in expressing my criticisms of the 2d20 system, nor in asking for a solution for those who liked the IP but could not enjoy the board gamey narrative point economy that is intrinsic to the mechanics.  I also felt strongly enough about the IP to point out in detail to the designers how those mechanics misrepresent Howard's work.

...so yeah, it was me.

Quote from: Spinachcat;940261Maztica should be a rum drink.

Challenge accepted. A long time ago I used to buy Bacardi Ciclon which is a blend of rum and tequila. I'm sure this would be a good base for a drink with lime and I dunno... Chilis or something. :D

Quote from: Krimson;940417Challenge accepted. A long time ago I used to buy Bacardi Ciclon which is a blend of rum and tequila. I'm sure this would be a good base for a drink with lime and I dunno... Chilis or something. :D

Poured over a still-beating human heart freshly ripped from a warrior's chest.

Quote from: Krimson;940417Challenge accepted. A long time ago I used to buy Bacardi Ciclon which is a blend of rum and tequila. I'm sure this would be a good base for a drink with lime and I dunno... Chilis or something. :D

Why not mezcal? All the cool kids are doing it.

The Maztica
1oz dark rum (Zacapa is awesome but Bacardi Gold or even Appleton Estate will do in a pinch)
1oz mezcal (I swear by Meteoro but I'm not big on mezcal. Fiendishly hard to get around here)
.5oz lime juice
Pour into a highball glass with ice. Top with tomato juice, add a dash of hot sauce and stir. Garnish with a red chile and a skewered, grilled chicken heart.

Quote from: Madprofessor;940413...so yeah, it was me.

Yeah but did you *demand*? :D

Quote from: The Butcher;940463Why not mezcal? All the cool kids are doing it.

The Maztica
1oz dark rum (Zacapa is awesome but Bacardi Gold or even Appleton Estate will do in a pinch)
1oz mezcal (I swear by Meteoro but I'm not big on mezcal. Fiendishly hard to get around here)
.5oz lime juice
Pour into a highball glass with ice. Top with tomato juice, add a dash of hot sauce and stir. Garnish with a red chile and a skewered, grilled chicken heart.

Grilled?

Quote from: CRKrueger;940465Grilled?

Never had 'em raw. Can't recommend. But grilled chicken hearts are a Brazilian BBQ classic. In fact, I could really go for a few right now...

Quote from: The Butcher;940468Never had 'em raw. Can't recommend. But grilled chicken hearts are a Brazilian BBQ classic. In fact, I could really go for a few right now...

When the Sun doesn't rise and the Tzitzimime come, I'll blame you guys for drinking Aztec drinks without the proper amount of blood. :D

Quote from: CRKrueger;940464Yeah but did you *demand*? :D

I didn't hold a gun to their head, but I sure as hell thought about it.:) It was more like I begged, pleaded, argued, explained and held a mirror up to their face.  Quite obviously, they didn't listen, so I had no power to "demand" anything. It was kinda like the election.

Glad to see some fellow rum drinkers here, that is virtually all I drink.  

I've been drinking Captain Morgan's Fire Ball, mixed with Gingerale and a wedge of lime.  Also, any spiced, dark rum (Kraken), about 3 shots, mixed with an ice cold Corona with lime.

Quote from: Spinachcat;940261Go for it!

I shall;).

QuoteEven better if its a judge from the Puritan era. Then we can all holler back that Bluddworth is a witch!

And you what we do to witches!!

I'm pretty sure that the thing I'm thinking about isn't what a good Puritan should be thinking:p. Of course, I'm not Puritan (or any other Protestant denomination, for that matter).
Furthermore, I'm sure it's not something I'd enjoy doing to Bluddworth:D! So no, I'd skip...

QuoteMaztica should be a rum drink.

Well, not rum, but it is a regular drink here - at least if you read "Maztica" in Spanish.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]639[/ATTACH]

QuoteThe pro-REH faction will declare "its okay to like problematic things" and the anti-REH faction will pee their pants.

No, the pro-REH faction will tell them the polite variant of "fuck off".

QuoteSame as GURPS and HERO system.

Traveller's 2D6 system has these issues as well (to a lesser extent).

But fans of 2D6 and 3D6 systems feel the "lot of rolls at peak" is a feature, not a bug because of the "swinginess" of D20.

Yes, we sure do;).

Quote from: CRKrueger;940286Why are so many people lately bucking for Sommerjon's job? ;)

...careful there:).

Quote from: Madprofessor;940413I did pray and beg for a multi-system approach.  It is something that Modiphius had done before.  I didn't feel like there was any crime in expressing my criticisms of the 2d20 system, nor in asking for a solution for those who liked the IP but could not enjoy the board gamey narrative point economy that is intrinsic to the mechanics.  I also felt strongly enough about the IP to point out in detail to the designers how those mechanics misrepresent Howard's work.

...so yeah, it was me.

Yeah, I remember that thread. I'm afraid I might have mistaken you for CRK, though. Yes, I know you're not nearly as green, the mistake is on me:)!
I hope you'd both forgive me the mistake. (Otherwise, I'd have to learn to live with it).
Now let's drop that tangent, if that's fine with you;)?

Quote from: The Butcher;940463Why not mezcal? All the cool kids are doing it.

The Maztica
1oz dark rum (Zacapa is awesome but Bacardi Gold or even Appleton Estate will do in a pinch)
1oz mezcal (I swear by Meteoro but I'm not big on mezcal. Fiendishly hard to get around here)
.5oz lime juice
Pour into a highball glass with ice. Top with tomato juice, add a dash of hot sauce and stir. Garnish with a red chile and a skewered, grilled chicken heart.

Hmm... I do happen to work beside a liquor store and tomorrow is my birthday and I know there will be rum. In reality I'd probably buy a bottle of rum and a jar of pickled jalepenos. Man, if I did that in the morning with rum and coffee because I know drinking coffee after eating a jalepeno is awesome. Coffee can be Maztican, right?

Oh and I draw the line at drinks that have anything on a stick. I'm even sketchy about watering it down with ice. :D

Quote from: AsenRG;940505Well, not rum, but it is a regular drink here - at least if you read "Maztica" in Spanish.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]639[/ATTACH]

That stuff looks neat. It translates to Mastic Cave. Apparently it's this stuff here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastika). The name is pretty close, but if you're going to go with an anise based liquor, this might be a better candidate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xtabent%C3%BAn_%28liqueur%29). :) And it has rum.

Quote from: Krimson;940516That stuff looks neat. It translates to Mastic Cave. Apparently it's this stuff here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastika). The name is pretty close, but if you're going to go with an anise based liquor, this might be a better candidate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xtabent%C3%BAn_%28liqueur%29). :) And it has rum.

Literally yes, but it translates to "Alcoholic beverage from the city of Peshtera". Peshtera means "Cave", yes, but since it's a city name, only machine translators actually translate it:).

And if I go with fermented honey, as in your link, I'd rather skip the anise and order some real mead (http://medovina.com) instead;)!

Needs to be 151 proof rum so we can light that sunzabitch pepper-encrusted, grilled heart on a cocktail skewer on fire.

I also recommend either cacao nubs or unsweetened chocolate to really stay true to the Aztecan aesthetic. chocolatl needs chili peppers, less agave nectar or honey!

and then the bartenders have to blow those skull whistles in tandem, so it sounds like screaming skulls from hell! so metal...

Well this introduction / greeting thread has really taken some twists and turns.  It has at least hit some of my favorite topics, especially RUM....  MMMmm  RUM!!

Quote from: The Butcher;940126> Notoriously racist murderer and arsonist scumbag writes RPG
> RPG is widely reported to feature blatantly racist content
> OP's "curiosity" is piqued, goes and buys the game

Yeah, business as usual, nothing fishy here.

When the Butcher and I am in total agreement, you know something is seriously fucked up.

Quote from: AsenRG;940129Well, you can also look at it from the other side.

Members of a forum known for overreacting on rights issues call for a boycott/ban of a book because racism.
OP's curiosity is piqued, goes and buys book to see if they're overreacting yet again.
OP finds he likes it and plays it.

Yeah, nothing fishy in that chain. And this is the chain the OP narrated.

Except that the game in question really is a racist piece of shit.

Quote from: RPGPundit;941712Except that the game in question really is a racist piece of shit.

But given the habit of some people to freak out over what amounts to details, how would anyone know that unless he decides to check for himself:)?
I know I've backed games I wouldn't otherwise look at just as a "fuck you" to some people. I'm still wondering whether I shouldn't get the Gor RPG when it comes out, for this very reason;).

And once you've paid the money, well, you might as well try and salvage the game, especially if you like the system otherwise, say, because you like lethal combat. That's not always possible with some systems, but it looks like MyFrog could be salvaged.
Hence, I'm choosing to give the OP the benefit of doubt here.

Quote from: AsenRG;941721But given the habit of some people to freak out over what amounts to details, how would anyone know that unless he decides to check for himself:)?
I know I've backed games I wouldn't otherwise look at just as a "fuck you" to some people. I'm still wondering whether I shouldn't get the Gor RPG when it comes out, for this very reason;).

And once you've paid the money, well, you might as well try and salvage the game, especially if you like the system otherwise, say, because you like lethal combat. That's not always possible with some systems, but it looks like MyFrog could be salvaged.
Hence, I'm choosing to give the OP the benefit of doubt here.

In the last game session I played in, one of the PCs has a character flaw of Selflessness and when the dilemma of one of the characters having to sacrifice himself for the whole group to survive.  My character has the opposite flaw, Selfishness, and so I played him the opposite way.  I was planning on killing the NPC that suggested the sacrifice.  

The game system provided for that, and unintentionally so. It was shear coincidence that we had the flaws that we had, and we had never played together before, nor planned ahead of time which characters to play.

Those that claim the game is a shit system, fall into one of three categories:

1.  They have played it and acceptably don't like it for their taste.

2.  They have played it, but in its first edition iteration.

3.  They have not played it and are basing their opinion on what others have said.  

Of the three, the first is the most legitimate.  The third is of course the mark of a weak minded or willed person, and I have pity for such weakness I never accept the opinion of another without first investigating, at least superficially, for myself.  If the game system is cheap enough, and this one certainly was, then I'll even buy it to do a full investigation.

On another note, I just got my copy of The Ice Kingdoms Campaign Setting by CS Barnhart, Chris Lites and James M. Ward.  I'm looking forward to adapting that setting to either D&D 5E or possibly D&D Basic Rules set.

Quote from: Bluddworth;941813The third is of course the mark of a weak minded or willed person, and I have pity for such weakness I never accept the opinion of another without first investigating, at least superficially, for myself.  If the game system is cheap enough, and this one certainly was, then I'll even buy it to do a full investigation.

That's about what I suspected, given your posts;).

Quote from: AsenRG;941816That's about what I suspected, given your posts;).

What I like most about the game system is the brutality of it, and its newest supplement just added a Critical Injuries system that is even more so.  Watch the YouTube review of The Coming for 2.6 edition, the character ended up with paralysis from the neck down, due to a critical injury.  

When I play MYFAROG I don't expect my character to survive, compare that to D&D (any edition) and you can reasonably expect to play a character forever.  

Also, there is a revised Mental Health System where the character can become permanently insane due to suffering frequent mental health loss, or a one time devasting traumatic experience.  This of course reminds me of Call of Cthulhu, and one of the most unique systems in that game.

I was hoping that REH's Conan RPG would be this brutal, but like MYFAROG, I can modify it to my own campaign's settings.

Quote from: Bluddworth;941813Those that claim the game is a shit system, fall into one of three categories:

1.  They have played it and acceptably don't like it for their taste.

2.  They have played it, but in its first edition iteration.

3.  They have not played it and are basing their opinion on what others have said.  

Of the three, the first is the most legitimate.  The third is of course the mark of a weak minded or willed person, and I have pity for such weakness I never accept the opinion of another without first investigating, at least superficially, for myself.  If the game system is cheap enough, and this one certainly was, then I'll even buy it to do a full investigation.

You claim it isn'ta shit system. Reviewers who have read the game have stated it is, and provided convincing examples to back up their claim. And in this case the onus is not just to prove the system is in someway worthwhile, but that its such an extraordinary game that it makes it worth it for one to put aside the White Nationalist creed of the awful waste of human flesh of a creator that informs the setting of the game.

So far your example does not distinguish the game in any way from hundreds of other game systems. So what makes the game unique? What makes it worthwhile as a system above and beyond the myriad of choices available that don't have any ties to bigotry?

Tristram,

Read my previous post, and you will see what I believe is unique.  But besides that, I have many RPGs that I simply have to read and have little or no intentions of playing.  As I've written, several times, I read core rules of RPGs much like I read fantasy or Sci FI novels.  I enjoy reading them, and so they don't require multiple unique systems.  

As I've also written, in my three categories of review, I think many of the critics are basing what they have read on the first edition of the game.  I think it is fairly obvious that the first edition was very clunky.  The edition cycle this far: 1.0, 2.0, 2.4, 2.5 and now 2.6.  So there have been at least 4 "improvements" made to the game's systems.  

You seem to fall within the category of those willing to accept the review of a few, who likely did not actually play the game nor are familiar with the newest edition of the game.

I'd suggest watching the reviews of the people actually playing the game.  There are plenty of YouTube videos of actual game play.... And none are as numbers crunchy as first edition.

Although I will say this, I did use the weather / wind tables to determine their effects on a sea travel segment of my adventure and the tables actually came in handy and directed some of the story I was crafting.

Quote from: Bluddworth;941837Tristram,

Read my previous post, and you will see what I believe is unique.

All you mentioned was that the game includes "weaknesses". Thats so far from unique that I have to wonder if you've ever seen an RPG besides D&D

QuoteYou seem to fall within the category of those willing to accept the review of a few, who likely did not actually play the game nor are familiar with the newest edition of the game.

"Accept" isnt even the right word, in that the quality of the game would only be of any interest if it was in someway exceptional to the point that its blatant ties to abhorrent ideologies might be worth considering looking past. I've read both positive and negative reviews. I've read reviews that focused entirely on the inherent racist agenda of the game, and I've read reviews that ignored all political context. What I've yet to see is any indication the game system offers anything that multitudes of RPGS without any moral quandries involved don't already provide.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;941839All you mentioned was that the game includes "weaknesses". Thats so far from unique that I have to wonder if you've ever seen an RPG besides D&D

If all you were able to glean from my previous post was one system, I'm hesitant to take the time to lay it out again for you.  I've discussed several systems, throughout this thread, but no matter.  

I'm actually looking at picking up another RPG I've seen advertised "Low Fantasy RPG", and I'll give that a quick run through and review.

That and I'm still waiting for my REH Conan RPG hardcovers to arrive so I can jump head long into that game.

I also have Conan Exiles (Survival MMO - by Funcom) going into early access on January 31!!  That may occupy much of my free (gaming) time for quite some time as well.

Quote from: AsenRG;941721And once you've paid the money, well, you might as well try and salvage the game

Not necessarily. I have thrown away, given away, or sold cheap many crappy games, or even sorta alright games that I knew I'd never play or run.

Quote from: Bluddworth;941813They have not played it and are basing their opinion on what others have said.  

Of the three, the first is the most legitimate.  The third is of course the mark of a weak minded or willed person

Our guy John Kim has a list of published rpgs (http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/encyclopedia/), and a bunch of free rpgs. Currently it's 1,101 published for money rpgs, and over 500 free rpgs. So that's 1,600 rpgs in all. And we know he's missed some, and more are being published all the time.

If gaming were my full-time job, I could play one rpg a day, five days a week, and it'd still take 5-6 years to get through them - and by then of course more would be published, so we can add a year to that. On average since gaming started back in then 1970s, there's been about 30-40 new rpgs a year (more in the 80s, less in the 90s, lots now that it's so easy to write up a pdf). Let's be conservative and call it one new game every fortnight.

Since nobody is paying me to game, let alone a whole game group, I have to rely on reviews and my own instincts. You may call this weak-minded, I would suggest it's simply that I have a life outside gaming. But perhaps you don't. That's okay, lots of racists have no job.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;941858Our guy John Kim has a list of published rpgs (http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/encyclopedia/), and a bunch of free rpgs. Currently it's 1,101 published for money rpgs, and over 500 free rpgs. So that's 1,600 rpgs in all. And we know he's missed some, and more are being published all the time.

If gaming were my full-time job, I could play one rpg a day, five days a week, and it'd still take 5-6 years to get through them - and by then of course more would be published, so we can add a year to that. On average since gaming started back in then 1970s, there's been about 30-40 new rpgs a year (more in the 80s, less in the 90s, lots now that it's so easy to write up a pdf). Let's be conservative and call it one new game every fortnight.

Since nobody is paying me to game, let alone a whole game group, I have to rely on reviews and my own instincts. You may call this weak-minded, I would suggest it's simply that I have a life outside gaming. But perhaps you don't. That's okay, lots of racists have no job.

Yawn..

Quote from: Bluddworth;941837[...] Although I will say this, I did use the weather / wind tables to determine their effects on a sea travel segment of my adventure and the tables actually came in handy and directed some of the story I was crafting.

I actually need info on this. I do have tables from D&D 2e DMG, Birthright's Seas of Cerilia box set, and Wilderness Survival Guide (along with more from other games I am currently forgetting in my pile). However I am running a heavy naval & sea travel campaign in Birthright. So any additional rules for wind, weather, currents, & non-critter encounters upon which to compare I am totally on the lookout.

I am debating using Birthright's sea region system, due to travel of navies, and an amalgam of solo boat hex map & weather/current for getting off course. A gamebook of mostly tables is not immediately bad in my eyes as long as they provide creative at-table-quick solutions. That's why Vornheim is high on my wish list.

So spill table beans!

Quote from: Opaopajr;941868I actually need info on this. I do have tables from D&D 2e DMG, Birthright's Seas of Cerilia box set, and Wilderness Survival Guide (along with more from other games I am currently forgetting in my pile). However I am running a heavy naval & sea travel campaign in Birthright. So any additional rules for wind, weather, currents, & non-critter encounters upon which to compare I am totally on the lookout.

I am debating using Birthright's sea region system, due to travel of navies, and an amalgam of solo boat hex map & weather/current for getting off course. A gamebook of mostly tables is not immediately bad in my eyes as long as they provide creative at-table-quick solutions. That's why Vornheim is high on my wish list.

So spill table beans!

Well I really can't spill the table beans, I'm sure that this website has rules against posting pictures of game rules from copyright materials.

But the system takes into account:  seasonal weather averages; time of day; wind speed and direction; temperature; precipitation; etc.

These all impacted ship speed, difficulty of sailing, amount of stamina used by characters on board ship, travel time, encounters, etc.

For long distance travel, the GM only needs to check for events evey 6 hours of travel.  So I did this ahead of time and laid it all out for the players as it happened.  I was half expecting the weather system to be as tedious as the critics made it sound, but in practice (and having used it for the first time) I found that the use of the 2.6 rules made it simple.  It also added an excellent story telling element to the adventure.  

That is one of the major points I make about the criticism of the game, it is usually based on the first edition and not on the most recent.  The same dilemma occurs in reviews of PC games, especially MMORPGs, which are often reviewed early on after release and not 6 months after release when many fixes are made.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;941835You claim it isn'ta shit system. Reviewers who have read the game have stated it is, and provided convincing examples to back up their claim. And in this case the onus is not just to prove the system is in someway worthwhile, but that its such an extraordinary game that it makes it worth it for one to put aside the White Nationalist creed of the awful waste of human flesh of a creator that informs the setting of the game.

So far your example does not distinguish the game in any way from hundreds of other game systems. So what makes the game unique? What makes it worthwhile as a system above and beyond the myriad of choices available that don't have any ties to bigotry?

Quote from: Tristram Evans;941839"Accept" isnt even the right word, in that the quality of the game would only be of any interest if it was in someway exceptional to the point that its blatant ties to abhorrent ideologies might be worth considering looking past. I've read both positive and negative reviews. I've read reviews that focused entirely on the inherent racist agenda of the game, and I've read reviews that ignored all political context. What I've yet to see is any indication the game system offers anything that multitudes of RPGS without any moral quandries involved don't already provide.

Exactly. Nothing he has said makes me think that it can do anything that something like HarnMaster or Chivalry and Sorcery already does without any ties to such a horrible author. But he already knows this and just wants to troll people to get attention.

Quote from: Spellslinging Sellsword;942006Exactly. Nothing he has said makes me think that it can do anything that something like HarnMaster or Chivalry and Sorcery already does without any ties to such a horrible author. But he already knows this and just wants to troll people to get attention.

How exactly am I trolling anyone?  I did not force anyone to comment on this thread, nor have I gone into anyone else's thread and pushed my views on them.  

I was asked to comment on the game system and explain what I liked about it.  If you don't want to play it, well..... Don't.  Now wasn't that easy?

Funny you mention Harnmaster and others have mentioned Runequest, and those were two of the games that supposedly inspired MYFAROG.

Quote from: Bluddworth;942016Funny you mention Harnmaster and others have mentioned Runequest, and those were two of the games that supposedly inspired MYFAROG.

What in the world do those have to do with each-other?  So a white supremacist stole some mechanics from games not made by crazies.  Yay?

The movie Taxi Driver supposedly inspired the attempted assassination of Regan.  That doesn't mean that liking the movie means that you wanted John Hinckley to shoot the president.

Quote from: Bluddworth;941992Well I really can't spill the table beans, I'm sure that this website has rules against posting pictures of game rules from copyright materials.

But the system takes into account:  seasonal weather averages; time of day; wind speed and direction; temperature; precipitation; etc.

These all impacted ship speed, difficulty of sailing, amount of stamina used by characters on board ship, travel time, encounters, etc.

For long distance travel, the GM only needs to check for events evey 6 hours of travel.  So I did this ahead of time and laid it all out for the players as it happened.  I was half expecting the weather system to be as tedious as the critics made it sound, but in practice (and having used it for the first time) I found that the use of the 2.6 rules made it simple.  It also added an excellent story telling element to the adventure.  

That is one of the major points I make about the criticism of the game, it is usually based on the first edition and not on the most recent.  The same dilemma occurs in reviews of PC games, especially MMORPGs, which are often reviewed early on after release and not 6 months after release when many fixes are made.

*sigh* Disappointing! Sounds like promotinal blurbs than a system summary.

Also it sounds like a rehash of D&D's system of weather change intervals of 4 hours (instead of 6). That also had same factors accounted. It was on a 2 die saddlepoint system (like 1d8+1d12 encounter tables) though usually 2d6 to keep the spread of values lower. Also past values counterweighted adjusted against radical extremes -- so hurricanes don't flip into gentle breezes and so on (and hurricane eyes don't normally camp over a single spot for over 4 or 6 hour stretches at a time).

It's not all that hard to reduce system concepts into formulae. Give it a whirl. Besides, they can't be patented.

So...MYFROG is a D&D heartbreaker written by a nasty dude, thus we must chastise and demean all who enjoy the game...even though plenty of us probably have a D&D heartbreaker or two we enjoy.

Check.

So...where's the thread denouncing anyone who likes Disney owned IPs due to Walt's politically incorrect leanings?

Get on it people. These torches and pitchforks aren't gonna march themselves through the streets!

Quote from: Spinachcat;942566So...MYFROG is a D&D heartbreaker written by a nasty dude, thus we must chastise and demean all who enjoy the game...even though plenty of us probably have a D&D heartbreaker or two we enjoy.

er... no...

Its written by a known felon and self avowed hatemonger and the game has some deliberately questionable content.

So what we have just another variation on the old "Designer/artist/publisher is a crook but I dont care! I must have and promote their product!"

This is nothing new in the RPG, board gaming or art biz. Fans will justify anything. Just look at the worst of the Games Workshop fans as worse case scenario.

Quote from: Spinachcat;942566So... These torches and pitchforks aren't gonna march themselves through the streets!

Spot on. Time for a short introspection...

I find the whole witch-burning mindset to be terribly hypocritical. I'm sure many of the witch hunters use products from various countries with questionable to deplorable human rights, low wages, and thinly enforced labor laws. We all do. Most creators that existed before the InterTubes didn't have near the scrutiny any stalker can leverage today. And yet the revelations keep coming! Our heroes and idols of yesteryear are discovered to be malcontents, rebels or libertines. All the emotional energy we invest in super-stars wasted on drug-addicts and near-do-wells. And yet we keep looking. We keep searching for the "one true idol" that we know is pure, and just, and above the everyday distractions of the common person.

In our hearts we know there is no such thing. In the end, every person you idolize, every mentor you learn from, every super-star... are just people. Human beings. They have their own ideologies, morals, values and flaws. Just like you. Yet we use thier inventions, buy their products and subscribe to their services everyday. Who gets to define the line between "it's ok to buy the Badguy's stuff" and "it's NOT ok to buy the Badguy's stuff"? You? Me? A committee of "better informed, more intelligent" people? God? The government?

I'm not sure the "ultimate" answer could even be determined in our fora debates. So instead I'm going with the way I generally decide these things.

I'll decide. My buying decisions are no more hinged on a white-supremacist writing an RPG than they are on getting the lowest cost on goods from labor-camps *ahem* I mean, factories in the litany of 3rd world countries we buy them from. If you're going to dig in the weeds on a witch-hunt trying to determine my morals, do me a favor. Get the fuck out my weeds.

Another introspection about witch-hunts...

I believe all the hand-wringing about "the bad people" is really a search for a peer-group. A subconscious desire to find like-minded people. To form our tribes and build our rituals that give us a sense of safety and comfort. Except, we strive so hard to define these tribes, and fight so hard to remain independent, that instead of forming cohesive tribes, we end up with tiny "boutique" tribes. Each with slight differences with the same fanatic focus on righteousness. We then find ourselves isolated in our own little tribe. We have a sense of belonging strong enough to remain in our tribe, but worry that the security of that tribe is threatened by the lack of members.

The pitchforks and torches are not a real desire to eliminate an enemy. It is no longer about violence, or retribution... it's simply about raising a hue and attempting to find other members of our boutique tribe. A hope that you can connect with more people, that will increase a sense of belonging while strengthening the bulwark against feelings of insecurity.

Wanderers without a tribe have one asset we should all envy. The ability to Seek First to Understand, Then to be Understood. There are no hard lines. No borders. Just a desire to see where someone is coming from. Not judging, not deciding.

Maybe it's time we poke our heads out of our little tribal gatherings and see the world (or hobby or...) on a broader scale?

It is in the spirit of being a Wanderer that I asked the OP the questions I did. Not to judge the author, or to take a political stance against a group I have no personal knowledge of, nor to cry hue and hope to find flag-bearers from my boutique tribe. Instead I just sincerely wanted to understand.

I am grateful that many on the thread seemed to seek the same thing.

Quote from: trechriron;942574Who gets to define the line between "it's ok to buy the Badguy's stuff" and "it's NOT ok to buy the Badguy's stuff"? You? Me? A committee of "better informed, more intelligent" people? God? The government?

The distinction is that no one is keeping anyone from doing something. The government isn't keeping people from buying this intellectual property. That would be censorship. Instead, people are making determinations and statements about what they think of people's action of buying said product. That's critique and analysis and being judged by your actions. That is accepting personal responsibility for your actions. Aren't we the site of letting people say what they want and taking responsibility for said statements like adults? Isn't that the entire point of being here instead of somewhere where what one says is constrained?

Quote from: Willie the Duck;942611... Isn't that the entire point of being here instead of somewhere where what one says is constrained?

Yes! yes. Absolutely. I was not admonishing people for stating opinions one way or the other. Rather I was commenting on what seems to be a popular trend to want to remove, make illegal, banish, etc. things "we don't like" (on a broader scale, not specifically here or specific posters here). It's one of the reasons I post here more than any other forum. :D

Quote from: trechriron;942574Wanderers without a tribe have one asset we should all envy. The ability to Seek First to Understand, Then to be Understood. There are no hard lines. No borders. Just a desire to see where someone is coming from. Not judging, not deciding.

Maybe it's time we poke our heads out of our little tribal gatherings and see the world (or hobby or...) on a broader scale?

It is in the spirit of being a Wanderer that I asked the OP the questions I did. Not to judge the author, or to take a political stance against a group I have no personal knowledge of, nor to cry hue and hope to find flag-bearers from my boutique tribe. Instead I just sincerely wanted to understand.

I am grateful that many on the thread seemed to seek the same thing.

For that you win a Donna Summer song! Let the topic surrealism commence!
Donna Summer - Wanderer
[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B68xlfJ6Oyo[/youtube]

Quote from: trechriron;942574Spot on. Time for a short introspection...

I find the whole witch-burning mindset to be terribly hypocritical. I'm sure many of the witch hunters use products from various countries with questionable to deplorable human rights, low wages, and thinly enforced labor laws. We all do. Most creators that existed before the InterTubes didn't have near the scrutiny any stalker can leverage today. And yet the revelations keep coming! Our heroes and idols of yesteryear are discovered to be malcontents, rebels or libertines. All the emotional energy we invest in super-stars wasted on drug-addicts and near-do-wells. And yet we keep looking. We keep searching for the "one true idol" that we know is pure, and just, and above the everyday distractions of the common person.

In our hearts we know there is no such thing. In the end, every person you idolize, every mentor you learn from, every super-star... are just people. Human beings. They have their own ideologies, morals, values and flaws. Just like you. Yet we use thier inventions, buy their products and subscribe to their services everyday. Who gets to define the line between "it's ok to buy the Badguy's stuff" and "it's NOT ok to buy the Badguy's stuff"? You? Me? A committee of "better informed, more intelligent" people? God? The government?

I'm not sure the "ultimate" answer could even be determined in our fora debates. So instead I'm going with the way I generally decide these things.

I'll decide. My buying decisions are no more hinged on a white-supremacist writing an RPG than they are on getting the lowest cost on goods from labor-camps *ahem* I mean, factories in the litany of 3rd world countries we buy them from. If you're going to dig in the weeds on a witch-hunt trying to determine my morals, do me a favor. Get the fuck out my weeds.

Another introspection about witch-hunts...

I believe all the hand-wringing about "the bad people" is really a search for a peer-group. A subconscious desire to find like-minded people. To form our tribes and build our rituals that give us a sense of safety and comfort. Except, we strive so hard to define these tribes, and fight so hard to remain independent, that instead of forming cohesive tribes, we end up with tiny "boutique" tribes. Each with slight differences with the same fanatic focus on righteousness. We then find ourselves isolated in our own little tribe. We have a sense of belonging strong enough to remain in our tribe, but worry that the security of that tribe is threatened by the lack of members.

The pitchforks and torches are not a real desire to eliminate an enemy. It is no longer about violence, or retribution... it's simply about raising a hue and attempting to find other members of our boutique tribe. A hope that you can connect with more people, that will increase a sense of belonging while strengthening the bulwark against feelings of insecurity.

Wanderers without a tribe have one asset we should all envy. The ability to Seek First to Understand, Then to be Understood. There are no hard lines. No borders. Just a desire to see where someone is coming from. Not judging, not deciding.

Maybe it's time we poke our heads out of our little tribal gatherings and see the world (or hobby or...) on a broader scale?

It is in the spirit of being a Wanderer that I asked the OP the questions I did. Not to judge the author, or to take a political stance against a group I have no personal knowledge of, nor to cry hue and hope to find flag-bearers from my boutique tribe. Instead I just sincerely wanted to understand.

I am grateful that many on the thread seemed to seek the same thing.

Kudos, man!

Quote from: trechriron;942574Spot on. Time for a short introspection...

I find the whole witch-burning mindset to be terribly hypocritical. I'm sure many of the witch hunters use products from various countries with questionable to deplorable human rights, low wages, and thinly enforced labor laws. We all do. Most creators that existed before the InterTubes didn't have near the scrutiny any stalker can leverage today. And yet the revelations keep coming! Our heroes and idols of yesteryear are discovered to be malcontents, rebels or libertines. All the emotional energy we invest in super-stars wasted on drug-addicts and near-do-wells. And yet we keep looking. We keep searching for the "one true idol" that we know is pure, and just, and above the everyday distractions of the common person.

In our hearts we know there is no such thing. In the end, every person you idolize, every mentor you learn from, every super-star... are just people. Human beings. They have their own ideologies, morals, values and flaws. Just like you. Yet we use thier inventions, buy their products and subscribe to their services everyday. Who gets to define the line between "it's ok to buy the Badguy's stuff" and "it's NOT ok to buy the Badguy's stuff"? You? Me? A committee of "better informed, more intelligent" people? God? The government?

I'm not sure the "ultimate" answer could even be determined in our fora debates. So instead I'm going with the way I generally decide these things.

I'll decide. My buying decisions are no more hinged on a white-supremacist writing an RPG than they are on getting the lowest cost on goods from labor-camps *ahem* I mean, factories in the litany of 3rd world countries we buy them from. If you're going to dig in the weeds on a witch-hunt trying to determine my morals, do me a favor. Get the fuck out my weeds.

Another introspection about witch-hunts...

I believe all the hand-wringing about "the bad people" is really a search for a peer-group. A subconscious desire to find like-minded people. To form our tribes and build our rituals that give us a sense of safety and comfort. Except, we strive so hard to define these tribes, and fight so hard to remain independent, that instead of forming cohesive tribes, we end up with tiny "boutique" tribes. Each with slight differences with the same fanatic focus on righteousness. We then find ourselves isolated in our own little tribe. We have a sense of belonging strong enough to remain in our tribe, but worry that the security of that tribe is threatened by the lack of members.

The pitchforks and torches are not a real desire to eliminate an enemy. It is no longer about violence, or retribution... it's simply about raising a hue and attempting to find other members of our boutique tribe. A hope that you can connect with more people, that will increase a sense of belonging while strengthening the bulwark against feelings of insecurity.

Wanderers without a tribe have one asset we should all envy. The ability to Seek First to Understand, Then to be Understood. There are no hard lines. No borders. Just a desire to see where someone is coming from. Not judging, not deciding.

Maybe it's time we poke our heads out of our little tribal gatherings and see the world (or hobby or...) on a broader scale?

It is in the spirit of being a Wanderer that I asked the OP the questions I did. Not to judge the author, or to take a political stance against a group I have no personal knowledge of, nor to cry hue and hope to find flag-bearers from my boutique tribe. Instead I just sincerely wanted to understand.

I am grateful that many on the thread seemed to seek the same thing.

Agree with basic premise, but...

...there's quite of bit of swing in the pendulum when it comes to determining morality. One reprehensible act is not the same as another.  It's easy to say no one is entirely good or entirely evil. It's self-evident. But I think there's a difference between those who recognize that, and those who never inquire that of themselves, of those who wrong others, either in action or in spirit, and don't bother to justify their inhumanity because it's so ingrained in their being, they need no question.

So, we're commenting on a game system, and the creator is, by all accounts, a fuckwad. We can differentiate between the work and the man. This doesn't take away from the fact that there are those out there who would deny others their rights to exist freely, and somehow feel it is their God-given right to decide who those people are, and what should be done against it. Those who cry out against such things are not always just looking for a tribe. They're recognizing that there is evil in the world, if evil can be said to be an insular selfishness that causes one person to deny another basic human rights.

While we may debate about the definitions of such, there are certain things we know to be wrong, including, but not limited to the moral superiority you mentioned. And the devil in that is apparent when said superiority leads mass movements to ignore the better angels of human nature.  We're just talking about games here. And we are likely all inconsistent in our morality. But to cease questioning what we do, or others do, just embeds that tendency, I think.

Quote from: Spinachcat;942566So...where's the thread denouncing anyone who likes Disney owned IPs due to Walt's politically incorrect leanings?

I'm actually 99% certain you could find exactly that if one were to search my posting history (I don't have the time, tbh). I've been very vocal for years about my issues with Disney, from their distortion of copyright laws, plagiarism of foreign animation, cover-ups of child molestation in their amusement parks, history of animal abuse, support of McCarthyism, etc etc.

On the other hand, I'm not actually seeing any witch-hunting going on here.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;942881I'm actually 99% certain you could find exactly that if one were to search my posting history (I don't have the time, tbh). I've been very vocal for years about my issues with Disney, from their distortion of copyright laws, plagiarism of foreign animation, cover-ups of child molestation in their amusement parks, history of animal abuse, support of McCarthyism, etc etc.

On the other hand, I'm not actually seeing any witch-hunting going on here.

Off topic. But Disney was public called out on the news and I believe handed a lawsuit/fine on the vulture shooting incident and they caught flack on the news again for the daycare mural lawsuit incident.

They did though get away with the Kimba/Jungle Emperor rip off for example.

Some of the charges of molestation, possibly all were shown to be false, scams, or just plain impossible. But not all as Disney has had some employee issues. But what park franchise (or anything else) thats run for decades hasnt?

Back to RPGs.

Back in the 90s I worked with a couple of artists who later turned out to be crooks. One is currently doing time in prison. At the time there was no indicator there was trouble. Afterwards though now years later Im kinda unsure what to do with the art... I dont want to promote these people. But I kinda you know... sunk money into this stuff and just locking it in a vault seems not right. ugh! :(

It seems to me like the OP bought the game unaware of the issues behind the game.

And theres nothing wrong with that. People buy board games and RPGs every day and are unaware of whats going on behind the scenes.

Alot of people love Supremacy for example and it has won awards. But that is a horrendous example of game theft that the thief totally got away with. FFG? WOTC? Both have ripped off designers. SJG has some skeletons in their closet. and so on.

Quote from: Omega;942895Back in the 90s I worked with a couple of artists who later turned out to be crooks. One is currently doing time in prison. At the time there was no indicator there was trouble. Afterwards though now years later Im kinda unsure what to do with the art... I dont want to promote these people. But I kinda you know... sunk money into this stuff and just locking it in a vault seems not right. ugh! :(

Well art collectors love them some John Wayne Gacy art... And several of them donate the proceeds to the victim's survivors. So, since I doubt your collection of originals can beat that nadir, feel free to enjoy such pieces as you please?
:o

Quote from: Omega;942897It seems to me like the OP bought the game unaware of the issues behind the game.

Actually he admitted what brought it onto his radar WAS the Outrage Brigade demanding that it can never be spoken about.

Quote from: Bluddworth;936763I had never heard of MYFAROG, or its author, until about 3 months ago.  I was originally introduced to it by a "call to arms" on the Paizo.com forums for the collective to ban the game from being discussed in any way.  I being somewhat Chaotic Neutral, especially on forums, said to myself "I have to check this shit out myself."  I looked the core book up and saw it was only $10.00 or so, and I ordered it.

Now at that point he probably had no idea who Varg was, what his politics were, never heard of Burzum, and never saw any "Thulean Perspective" websites or videos.

So he did know it was controversial.  That's the problem with the calls to silence people, to ban books or discussion about them.  People will buy it just to spite you.

F.A.T.A.L. came out like, what, 12-15 years ago, the Outrage Brigade wasn't in full swing, so the game wasn't just blacklisted for including rules for sex.  Some people heard "Anal Circumference Table" and that was that, but other people actually read it and did rather detailed takedowns of the mechanics.  Even purple itself did a review, one so filled with bilous invective, smug superiority, and really bad attempts at SA-like humor that it's almost as painful to read as FATAL itself - but they did review it.  They didn't just say "This game is declared Anathema", they showed why it sucked.

So, what Tristam should do is...
1. Buy Myfarog (with corresponding donations to offset the evil done)
2. Deliver an absolutely scathing review proving beyond the shadow of a doubt how terrible it is.
3. All of us can mock it forever based on something other than the reputation of the author.

Varg is a murderer and one of the biggest morons to draw breath. He claimed in an interview that people with brown eyes were inferior and somehow drew an inference to shit. He seems half-educated at best. Probably the Norwegian equivalent to a criminal hillbilly.

Now I do like one or two of his Burzum records but beware as the first one is shit and everything he made in prison was tinker toy new age garbage.  I checked them out because I was into black metal but I made sure to buy boots so I could ensure the POS didn't see a dime. I can read the poetry of Pound, D'Annunzio and the great novels of Celine or Malaparte but thankfully those anti-semites and fascists are all dead and buried. If they were alive I wouldn't want to financially support them. I usually support separating the artist from the art but have to draw the line at murderous racists like Varg.

Quote from: Voros;943065I usually support separating the artist from the art but have to draw the line at murderous racists like Varg.

Is it murder, racism or the combo?  Seriously asking.  

A lot of people are saying somehow Varg steps over their personal "Artistic Atrocity" line.  His murder conviction had nothing to do with race, he stabbed another white guy in the Black Metal scene, a bandmate, presumably over money or personal grudges.

You Google famous artists guilty of murder, rape, and child assault charges, it might put a hurtin' on your music, movie and book collection.  

It's difficult, because I don't really want this place to turn into an alt-right cesspool where...Neo-Nazi's isn't the right term...NeoNeoNazis, NovaNazis, Genetic Seperatists...whatever come to congregate, but at the same time, whining about it isn't going to solve anything, and declaring some games Offiziell Verboten I don't think is the answer either (not to mention so fucking Irony-Meter breaking as to be fracturing reality).

Maybe less " I can't hear you over the sound of how indignant I am." and more "Here is X, Y, Z and whatever else that outs your bullshit for what it is" is the answer.

Quote from: CRKrueger;943091Is it murder, racism or the combo?  Seriously asking.  

A lot of people are saying somehow Varg steps over their personal "Artistic Atrocity" line.  His murder conviction had nothing to do with race, he stabbed another white guy in the Black Metal scene, a bandmate, presumably over money or personal grudges.

You Google famous artists guilty of murder, rape, and child assault charges, it might put a hurtin' on your music, movie and book collection.  

It's difficult, because I don't really want this place to turn into an alt-right cesspool where...Neo-Nazi's isn't the right term...NeoNeoNazis, NovaNazis, Genetic Seperatists...whatever come to congregate, but at the same time, whining about it isn't going to solve anything, and declaring some games Offiziell Verboten I don't think is the answer either (not to mention so fucking Irony-Meter breaking as to be fracturing reality).

Maybe less " I can't hear you over the sound of how indignant I am." and more "Here is X, Y, Z and whatever else that outs your bullshit for what it is" is the answer.

I remember someone was posting exerts from the book that basically describes Nubians like goblins in a classic RPG. Perhaps they could do it again.

And actually, regarding to the stabbing, it's not entirely true. Euronymous was a known...well, he wasn't a Stalinist per se,  but he was a (sigh) "Anti-Revisionist Leftist."

The thing with Varg's RPG is, that as I understood from reviews, it's one of those "wink wink nudge nudge" pieces, where it's nowhere openly stated, like in RaHoWa, what's the deal, but overall, you are supposed to play a Nordic Noble Savage Fighting Decadents character.

QuoteSo, what Tristam should do is...
1. Buy Myfarog (with corresponding donations to offset the evil done)
2. Deliver an absolutely scathing review proving beyond the shadow of a doubt how terrible it is.
3. All of us can mock it forever based on something other than the reputation of the author.

But that does put a dime in an open Nazi's pocket. Plus to that given fanbase, even a most scathing, fact-based review'd be dismissed as "liberal butthurt." I mean, let's face it - "it's less offensive than RaHoWa, and it is actually finished unlike that one" is not the best selling point. I have nothing against talking about the game itself, but theoretically you can also start a thread on FATAL and Synnabar and expect people to take it seriously.

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;938391Racism and sexism, all wrapped in the worst possible font asides Wingdings?

Ah yes. Papyrus. Zhe irony, she is like a thick, like a proper babushka.

Quote from: trechriron;942574Spot on. Time for a short introspection...

I find the whole witch-burning mindset to be terribly hypocritical. I'm sure many of the witch hunters use products from various countries with questionable to deplorable human rights, low wages, and thinly enforced labor laws. We all do. Most creators that existed before the InterTubes didn't have near the scrutiny any stalker can leverage today. And yet the revelations keep coming! Our heroes and idols of yesteryear are discovered to be malcontents, rebels or libertines. All the emotional energy we invest in super-stars wasted on drug-addicts and near-do-wells. And yet we keep looking. We keep searching for the "one true idol" that we know is pure, and just, and above the everyday distractions of the common person.

In our hearts we know there is no such thing. In the end, every person you idolize, every mentor you learn from, every super-star... are just people. Human beings. They have their own ideologies, morals, values and flaws. Just like you. Yet we use thier inventions, buy their products and subscribe to their services everyday. Who gets to define the line between "it's ok to buy the Badguy's stuff" and "it's NOT ok to buy the Badguy's stuff"? You? Me? A committee of "better informed, more intelligent" people? God? The government?

I'm not sure the "ultimate" answer could even be determined in our fora debates. So instead I'm going with the way I generally decide these things.

I'll decide. My buying decisions are no more hinged on a white-supremacist writing an RPG than they are on getting the lowest cost on goods from labor-camps *ahem* I mean, factories in the litany of 3rd world countries we buy them from. If you're going to dig in the weeds on a witch-hunt trying to determine my morals, do me a favor. Get the fuck out my weeds.

Another introspection about witch-hunts...

I believe all the hand-wringing about "the bad people" is really a search for a peer-group. A subconscious desire to find like-minded people. To form our tribes and build our rituals that give us a sense of safety and comfort. Except, we strive so hard to define these tribes, and fight so hard to remain independent, that instead of forming cohesive tribes, we end up with tiny "boutique" tribes. Each with slight differences with the same fanatic focus on righteousness. We then find ourselves isolated in our own little tribe. We have a sense of belonging strong enough to remain in our tribe, but worry that the security of that tribe is threatened by the lack of members.

The pitchforks and torches are not a real desire to eliminate an enemy. It is no longer about violence, or retribution... it's simply about raising a hue and attempting to find other members of our boutique tribe. A hope that you can connect with more people, that will increase a sense of belonging while strengthening the bulwark against feelings of insecurity.

Wanderers without a tribe have one asset we should all envy. The ability to Seek First to Understand, Then to be Understood. There are no hard lines. No borders. Just a desire to see where someone is coming from. Not judging, not deciding.

Maybe it's time we poke our heads out of our little tribal gatherings and see the world (or hobby or...) on a broader scale?

It is in the spirit of being a Wanderer that I asked the OP the questions I did. Not to judge the author, or to take a political stance against a group I have no personal knowledge of, nor to cry hue and hope to find flag-bearers from my boutique tribe. Instead I just sincerely wanted to understand.

I am grateful that many on the thread seemed to seek the same thing.

It's all fine and dandy, and I am sure that certain philosophers'd be crying tears of joy, but at the end of the day, you are still defending desperately a game that's less shitty RaHoWa. The differences are, when you want to buy something in modern word, there are practically no alternatives to the 3rd world sweatshops. There are, however, RPGs not written with intend, nor by, White Supremacists.


And no, buying it doesn't make you Evil or a Nazi, nor does necessarily playing it (I am pretty sure the OP just saw a cool mechanic for Howardian play), but you do have to ask yourself - what does this game have, that Crypts & Things don't, that makes it somehow valuable to just skim over the intended legacy of the work.

Quote from: CRKrueger;943050So, what Tristam should do is...
1. Buy Myfarog (with corresponding donations to offset the evil done)
2. Deliver an absolutely scathing review proving beyond the shadow of a doubt how terrible it is.
3. All of us can mock it forever based on something other than the reputation of the author.

I'm almost tempted, just to deliver something akin to the epic FATAL review from back in the day that introduced an unsuspecting world not only to the anal circumference tables but also the mind-bending horror of tubgirl. But holy fuck man, Mid-terms are coming up, and I've got miniatures to paint and games to write.

Still, I'll look around for a used copy. At the very least, I could burn the insides after I was done and just hang on to the cover, which honestly deserves to be on a better RPG.

Quote from: Rincewind1;943094I remember someone was posting exerts from the book that basically describes Nubians like goblins in a classic RPG. Perhaps they could do it again.

I've also seen people report that Khemites are accepted just fine in Thule and can be PCs, but can't be nobles (of course not many cultures with nobles let outsiders be one) and that being a Bigot is described as a negative trait.  

Quote from: Rincewind1;943094And actually, regarding to the stabbing, it's not entirely true. Euronymous was a known...well, he wasn't a Stalinist per se,  but he was a (sigh) "Anti-Revisionist Leftist."

So politics is a race now? ;)  They were band members who had some kind of a business problem, but who cares, we'll never really know "why".

Quote from: Rincewind1;943094The thing with Varg's RPG is, that as I understood from reviews, it's one of those "wink wink nudge nudge" pieces, where it's nowhere openly stated, like in RaHoWa, what's the deal, but overall, you are supposed to play a Nordic Noble Savage Fighting Decadents character.

Unfortunately, I've yet to see an honest review free of SJW Virtue Signaling...as a result, it doesn't matter whether they are telling the truth or not, you can't trust that they are, because End, Means, etc.

Quote from: Rincewind1;943094But that does put a dime in an open Nazi's pocket.

True, there is that, maybe the internet can provide.

Quote from: Rincewind1;943094Plus to that given fanbase, even a most scathing, fact-based review'd be dismissed as "liberal butthurt."

I don't give two shits about the Myfarog fanbase, someone who I know is reasonably trustworthy and sane doing a review would be fine.

Quote from: Rincewind1;943094I mean, let's face it - "it's less offensive than RaHoWa, and it is actually finished unlike that one" is not the best selling point.

Heh, true.

Quote from: Rincewind1;943094I have nothing against talking about the game itself, but theoretically you can also start a thread on FATAL and Synnabar and expect people to take it seriously.

Don't fuck with the LaserBears.

Quote from: Rincewind1;943094she is thick, like a proper babushka.

Just like my prababcia, but what can they do?  18 - supermodel, 68 - potato brick.  I think it's the cost of practically being guaranteed to making it into the 90s. :D

Quote from: CRKrueger;943100I've also seen people report that Khemites are accepted just fine in Thule and can be PCs, but can't be nobles (of course not many cultures with nobles let outsiders be one) and that being a Bigot is described as a negative trait.  

As I said - wink wink, nudge nudge. Like not racism, but racial realism.

QuoteSo politics is a race now? ;)  They were band members who had some kind of a business problem, but who cares, we'll never really know "why".

Touche - to be honest, they were two really... peculiar individuals, politics aside. I'd not leave a unsupervised child with neither of those two, so to speak.

QuoteUnfortunately, I've yet to see an honest review free of SJW Virtue Signaling...as a result, it doesn't matter whether they are telling the truth or not, you can't trust that they are, because End, Means, etc.

Partially because it is a product with a very, ekhm...specific target audience for most, so the positive reviews might have the exact reverse problem, if you catch my drift. So obviously the most reviews not from target audience, given the controversy, will be from ideological opponents - and I doubt this has the excellent artistic merit of Birth of Nation, so to speak. But I can be wrong on the game's actual gaming merit, but from the exempts I've seen...it would have to be pretty spectacular gaming material to get past the winks and nudges.

QuoteTrue, there is that, maybe the internet can provide.

I don't give two shits about the Myfarog fanbase, someone who I know is reasonably trustworthy and sane doing a review would be fine.

Well, if someone is up to the task, it is foundable by means of simple google fu. I'll look around it myself after work.

QuoteJust like my prababcia, but what can they do?  18 - supermodel, 68 - potato brick.  I think it's the cost of practically being guaranteed to making it into the 90s. :D

Hells, think what we'll look like at that age.

Ultimately, I'm not saying ban the threads, but considering the author, would you be surprised if people were offended that discussion of an RPG written by Anwar al-Awlaki, with a pro-Jihadi message even if the message is "Salafism is the Light", not "Death to all infidels", takes place? Considering how Breivik is one of Varg's heroes, and his videos(viewing for "where eagles dare only") that is not that far of a stretch.

Quote from: Rincewind1;943106Ultimately, I'm not saying ban the threads, but considering the author, would you be surprised if people were offended that discussion of an RPG written by Anwar al-Awlaki, with a pro-Jihadi message even if the message is "Salafism is the Light", not "Death to all infidels", takes place? Considering how Breivik is one of Varg's heroes, and his videos(viewing for "where eagles dare only") that is not that far of a stretch.

See now that is actually a good parallel.  If it was a game that actually explored Islamic concepts in a roleplaying context, that might be very interesting.  To directly compare to Myfarog, if the Muslim version existed, I would care less about a Salafi or Wahhabi viewpoint that showed Thulean women to be painted whores that the Righteous must not touch if there was some awesome Sufi Mysticism stuff I could lift for other games.

That's why I'd like see a detailed mechanics breakdown that ignores the political bullshit, to see if there's anything interesting on Nordic magic or religion.

Quote from: CRKrueger;943128See now that is actually a good parallel.  If it was a game that actually explored Islamic concepts in a roleplaying context, that might be very interesting.  To directly compare to Myfarog, if the Muslim version existed, I would care less about a Salafi or Wahhabi viewpoint that showed Thulean women to be painted whores that the Righteous must not touch if there was some awesome Sufi Mysticism stuff I could lift for other games.

That's why I'd like see a detailed mechanics breakdown that ignores the political bullshit, to see if there's anything interesting on Nordic magic or religion.

I see your point, but let me remind you, that Gun Leveling mechanics were also pretty new idea at the time of RaHoWa, but I think we both'd rather send someone to Earthdawn for Item Leveling rules ;). I'll give it a look as I've seen 2-3 reviews that should guide me to the proverbial "goodies" to demonstrate. The problem also with games like this, is that they are not exactly making a sane conversation about Howard's Sword & Sorcery any easier (let's face it, he was no Lovecraft but not exactly Mark Twain neither).

To make with music industry metaphor, as I think it's apt - ultimately, when we talk about games like this, they fall in the territory of the differences between Death in June and Death in Rome.

Quote from: Rincewind1;943131To make with music industry metaphor, as I think it's apt - ultimately, when we talk about games like this, they fall in the territory of the differences between Death in June and Death in Rome.

Yeah but when Death in Des Moines crops up, are you goin to accept Rolling Stones' opinion as Gospel as to which side they are on, or give them a listen? :D

Quote from: CRKrueger;943134Yeah but when Death in Des Moines crops up, are you goin to accept Rolling Stones' opinion as Gospel as to which side they are on, or give them a listen? :D

Does it have Vikernes as headliner? ;). I know what you mean, and it's a very good sentiment, the intellectual pursuit of "what if the other side is right," one I generally share, too. But on the other hand, if I know the author, his views, his works and interviews, I can read the Rolling Stone article and have a more or less good guess if it's worth a listen at all. I mean, if Vince Baker will publish another RPG and it's quoted as Best Thing Ever, would you need to give it a try before knowing it's most likely not for you, and it bears close examination before sending to Storygames section? We live in an age when we are bombarded by content, so making an informed opinion on everything is harder and harder. Like the old saying - when you see a dump, you don't need to stick a finger and lick it to be sure it's a dump.

As I said - I'll take a look, just for the shits and giggles. Perhaps you are right, and there is something salvageable there, but I doubt it. You are also right that it's much more effective that we ourselves push back against something, rather than rely on censorship or limitations, but the question I'd rise is - but what if the push back machinery appears to be broken?

Edit: Also, as I said before, in case of dealing with works of genuine fascists/nazis like Varg, it's all about those winks and nudges, and that's why authorship matters. Because let's face it, if Monte Cook makes a game where a race called "Weaklings" by denizens of said world has a bonus to treachery and semitic looks, we'll know that they are called "Weaklings" because inhabitants of that world are your typical medieval assholes afraid of everyone who's not from their home village, but when someone like Varg does that, well...then you can't help but wonder if it's just in-game narration.

Quote from: CRKrueger;943050Actually he admitted what brought it onto his radar WAS the Outrage Brigade demanding that it can never be spoken about.
Now at that point he probably had no idea who Varg was, what his politics were, never heard of Burzum, and never saw any "Thulean Perspective" websites or videos.

So he did know it was controversial.  That's the problem with the calls to silence people, to ban books or discussion about them.  People will buy it just to spite you.

F.A.T.A.L. came out like, what, 12-15 years ago, the Outrage Brigade wasn't in full swing, so the game wasn't just blacklisted for including rules for sex.  Some people heard "Anal Circumference Table" and that was that, but other people actually read it and did rather detailed takedowns of the mechanics.  Even purple itself did a review, one so filled with bilous invective, smug superiority, and really bad attempts at SA-like humor that it's almost as painful to read as FATAL itself - but they did review it.  They didn't just say "This game is declared Anathema", they showed why it sucked.

So, what Tristam should do is...
1. Buy Myfarog (with corresponding donations to offset the evil done)
2. Deliver an absolutely scathing review proving beyond the shadow of a doubt how terrible it is.
3. All of us can mock it forever based on something other than the reputation of the author.

After much consideration, I'd agree with that post:).

Quote from: Rincewind1;943094The thing with Varg's RPG is, that as I understood from reviews, it's one of those "wink wink nudge nudge" pieces, where it's nowhere openly stated, like in RaHoWa, what's the deal, but overall, you are supposed to play a Nordic Noble Savage Fighting Decadents character.

So...like frigging Northern Wild Elves fighting orcs and drow:D?

QuoteBut that does put a dime in an open Nazi's pocket.

OK, that's simple, actually
Go and buy a second-hand copy on Amazon:D! If someone is selling it, presumably that person wasn't fine with it and considered buying it a mistake (or, if it was listed as "New" or "Like New", maybe it was a black metal fan who bought it and only realized later that it's a book that requires dice...either way, it's not a "known" racist).

QuotePlus to that given fanbase, even a most scathing, fact-based review'd be dismissed as "liberal butthurt."

You don't write reviews for people that have made up their mind already.

QuoteAnd no, buying it doesn't make you Evil or a Nazi, nor does necessarily playing it (I am pretty sure the OP just saw a cool mechanic for Howardian play), but you do have to ask yourself - what does this game have, that Crypts & Things don't, that makes it somehow valuable to just skim over the intended legacy of the work.

Much as I like C&T, both editions, it's not really a highly-lethal game.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;943095I'm almost tempted, just to deliver something akin to the epic FATAL review from back in the day that introduced an unsuspecting world not only to the anal circumference tables but also the mind-bending horror of tubgirl. But holy fuck man, Mid-terms are coming up, and I've got miniatures to paint and games to write.

Still, I'll look around for a used copy. At the very least, I could burn the insides after I was done and just hang on to the cover, which honestly deserves to be on a better RPG.

Or you can mail one to my address, and I'll write that review for you:D! I don't have mid-term exams any more.

Quote from: Rincewind1;943106Hells, think what we'll look like at that age.

At 90, I'd expect to look like any other ash, pretty much.

QuoteUltimately, I'm not saying ban the threads, but considering the author, would you be surprised if people were offended that discussion of an RPG written by Anwar al-Awlaki, with a pro-Jihadi message even if the message is "Salafism is the Light", not "Death to all infidels", takes place?

It's not that easy to separate the two.
And well, there is an RPG that seemingly presumed Islam had won the battle for domination in a fantasy setting - or at least, all of the human Realm was following the Law. When the Law seemed modeled after Islamic teachings and the setting seems more than loosely inspired by it, it's an easy jump to make.
There are history-related reasons that people from my region would view his game's setting in pretty much the same way that Afroamerican and Jewish players would probably see a hypothetical setting where the South has won the Civil War, then allied with the Axis in WWII, and together they imposed a slave-owning Nazism over the whole world.
I don't begrudge it that, though. In fact, I suspect the author doesn't realize that's the case. (Or maybe he does, and thinks that it helps making it an even more suitable setting for a horror game - I neither know nor care).

Still, I even ran a one-shot of it, and would recommend it to most people. My group didn't like it, but I'd probably import some of its mechanics to other OSR games;).

Quote from: CRKrueger;943128See now that is actually a good parallel.  If it was a game that actually explored Islamic concepts in a roleplaying context, that might be very interesting.  To directly compare to Myfarog, if the Muslim version existed, I would care less about a Salafi or Wahhabi viewpoint that showed Thulean women to be painted whores that the Righteous must not touch if there was some awesome Sufi Mysticism stuff I could lift for other games.

How about a Salafist/Wahabist version which shows Thulean women to be painted whores who have to be converted to the Right Path via marriage:D?

QuoteThat's why I'd like see a detailed mechanics breakdown that ignores the political bullshit, to see if there's anything interesting on Nordic magic or religion.

+1 to that;).

Quote from: Rincewind1;943094...

It's all fine and dandy, and I am sure that certain philosophers'd be crying tears of joy, but at the end of the day, you are still defending desperately a game that's less shitty RaHoWa. The differences are, when you want to buy something in modern word, there are practically no alternatives to the 3rd world sweatshops. There are, however, RPGs not written with intend, nor by, White Supremacists.

...

I am not "desperately" defending the game. I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of decrying this game while still participating in capitalism elsewhere in our lives where the products' creators/manufacturers are questionable.

Just because it's easier to find alternatives to RPGs than cheap products made by cheap labor, doesn't excuse the hypocrisy.

Maybe it's just more convenient?

P.S. I think this guy is a deplorable self-hating ignoramus. I wouldn't tolerate this lost souls bullshit for a second. I find racism in any form unacceptable. Don't confuse my debate for free markets as tolerating racism. I can fight against mistreatment, oppression, and hateful behavior and still support a free market. I don't see a binary here.

Quote from: trechriron;943194I am not "desperately" defending the game. I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of decrying this game while still participating in capitalism elsewhere in our lives where the products' creators/manufacturers are questionable.

Just because it's easier to find alternatives to RPGs than cheap products made by cheap labor, doesn't excuse the hypocrisy.

Luckily, not every consumer is uneducated and some of us apply the same ethical evaluations of all our purchases, so we don't have any hypocrisy to excuse.

Quote from: CRKrueger;943091Is it murder, racism or the combo?  Seriously asking.  

A lot of people are saying somehow Varg steps over their personal "Artistic Atrocity" line.  His murder conviction had nothing to do with race, he stabbed another white guy in the Black Metal scene, a bandmate, presumably over money or personal grudges.

You Google famous artists guilty of murder, rape, and child assault charges, it might put a hurtin' on your music, movie and book collection.  

Probably the racism over the murder, although the pointlessness and stupidity of the murder speaks for itself, but your claim that there are loads of murder and child assault charges among famous artists seems very exaggerated. Outside of Roman Polanski who have we got still living that I could contribute to their livelihood? I could care less about the music of R. Kelly or Gary Glitter. And I would be careful to not put a dime in the pocket of Phil Spector these days. Domestic abuse is much more rampant.

But that is pretty off topic. Again I said I usually draw a line between the artist and the art but it is up to everyone to decide for themselves if they want their money supporting white supremacists. It isn't some either/or situation, there are degrees. And let's face it how many would have bought this RPG if Varg wasn't an infamous racist and murderer? The idea that this mouthbreather (read and watch some interviews) could produce a well functioning and interesting fantasy RPG seems like a long shot.

Quote from: Voros;943215And let's face it how many would have bought this RPG if Varg wasn't an infamous racist and murderer? The idea that this mouthbreather (read and watch some interviews) could produce a well functioning and interesting fantasy RPG seems like a long shot.

I heard about the game first... and only heard about Varg's notoriety after some of the folks who usually make a stink about such things started making their usual stink. As for how photogenic and well-spoken he might be... well, I watched a few of his videos and, at least when just talking about games, he didn't come off any worse than most folks I see online talking about games. He certainly didn't seem any nuttier than Pundit does half the time.

There is A grade fucked up creepy shit in Hollywood, and always has been. If you live in LA for a couple years and associate with the entertainment crowd, you will hear the stories and see the broken human refuse, aka the "losers" of the Hollywood game. If you are looking for morally untainted entertainment, unplug all your screens.

My stance on the Creator vs. Creation is Live and Let Die.

If someone feels that a Creator's personal life contains aspects that make them unable to appreciate the Creation, that's fine. It's personal choice. It's freedom of expression to choose to NOT consume a product for whatever reason.

But I also stand on the reverse. It's freedom of expression to appreciate Creations from Creators with "problematic" backgrounds. And I'm not using the SJW definition of problematic, but simply using it to refer to "anything the Creator does or says that said consumer may not agree with"

....I save the "Let Die" part for those who demand THEY choose what we may decide is worth our attention and dollars.

Quote from: Spinachcat;943349There is A grade fucked up creepy shit in Hollywood, and always has been. If you live in LA for a couple years and associate with the entertainment crowd, you will hear the stories and see the broken human refuse, aka the "losers" of the Hollywood game. If you are looking for morally untainted entertainment, unplug all your screens.

Done. I haven't owned a TV in over a decade.

Quote....I save the "Let Die" part for those who demand THEY choose what we may decide is worth our attention and dollars.

Luckily no one has demanded that here; however, I reserve the right to judge people for consuming nazi propaganda.

But its nice so many posters here are bending over backwards trying to validate racist crap.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;943380I reserve the right to judge people for consuming nazi propaganda.

I have no problem with that.

We all gotta choose our stances.

Nothing I've heard about MYFROG makes me want to buy it, but nothing I've read from the OP makes me think he's a monster. I definitely get the vibe the OP isn't familiar with the wealth of retro-whatevers available online for free.

Quote from: Spinachcat;943349There is A grade fucked up creepy shit in Hollywood, and always has been. If you live in LA for a couple years and associate with the entertainment crowd, you will hear the stories and see the broken human refuse, aka the "losers" of the Hollywood game. If you are looking for morally untainted entertainment, unplug all your screens.

Silencio!

[video=youtube;AIpkMg9sh6Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIpkMg9sh6Q[/youtube]
(Llorando - Mulholland Drive)

Quote from: Spinachcat;943349If someone feels that a Creator's personal life contains aspects that make them unable to appreciate the Creation, that's fine. It's personal choice. It's freedom of expression to choose to NOT consume a product for whatever reason.

I do not care if Myaforg's writer has killed and eaten babies. I do care that his game is racist and crap. With over 1,500 published rpgs out there, there's no need to delve into basement-dwelling lonely loser neonazism to find crap games.

Would you rather Varg have made a good racist game?

Isn't it better from your perspective that Varg made a here today, gone tomorrow D&D heartbreaker?  

Maybe I am wrong (and I might be), but I get the sense from the OP that the OP isn't up on the whole RPG scene, especially the OSR.

If the poor guy had just gotten Dragon Warriors instead!!!

Again, I get the sense the OP just wanted to play old school rules in faux-Europe with faux-Norse PCs.

The problem is, that the OP is basically a person who has arrived in a swastika T-shirt to a gaming convention, and when someone finally asked from a back row, with a baffled voice "Dude, what the fuck are you wearing", he said he got it as a souvenir from a trip to Nepal, because it looked cool and he doesn't know what the problem is. And the fact, that after two beers in a tent, he starts going on how women penalties to strength are all 100% mandated because realism, and how racism is, and I quote, "one of the most frivolous charges in our modern era"...well, it literally walked in stepping like a duck, walking like a duck, and even quacking duckishly.

You can give a benefit of doubt to someone who arrives and says FATAL is a good RPG too, sure, but I'd be willing to bet on the time span necessary for when they start posting their home brew anal circumference tables.

Quote from: Spinachcat;943349There is A grade fucked up creepy shit in Hollywood, and always has been. If you live in LA for a couple years and associate with the entertainment crowd, you will hear the stories and see the broken human refuse, aka the "losers" of the Hollywood game. If you are looking for morally untainted entertainment, unplug all your screens.

I don't watch TV (I'm using it for PS4), don't watch most new movies, and so on:).
That's not because I believe Hollywood is morally bankrupt, though, I believed it even when I was watching movies. Creation vs Creator, you know?

QuoteMy stance on the Creator vs. Creation is Live and Let Die.

If someone feels that a Creator's personal life contains aspects that make them unable to appreciate the Creation, that's fine. It's personal choice. It's freedom of expression to choose to NOT consume a product for whatever reason.

Totally agree!
 

QuoteBut I also stand on the reverse. It's freedom of expression to appreciate Creations from Creators with "problematic" backgrounds. And I'm not using the SJW definition of problematic, but simply using it to refer to "anything the Creator does or says that said consumer may not agree with"

Totally agree as well!
I don't have a problem with either - I have a problem when people start judging others' moral qualities (as opposed to their EDU, INT and the like;)) on the basis of the entertainment they consume.

Quote....I save the "Let Die" part for those who demand THEY choose what we may decide is worth our attention and dollars.

I totally agree with that part as well:D!

Quote from: Rincewind1;943579You can give a benefit of doubt to someone who arrives and says FATAL is a good RPG too, sure, but I'd be willing to bet on the time span necessary for when they start posting their home brew anal circumference tables.

FATAL is a great RPG for people that want slash roleplay of the non-con variety (who might overlook the rest of the convoluted mess of a system anyway).
You'd have to wait for my homebrew anal cirumference tables a long, long time. I'm not into slash anything;).

Similarly, "the OP likes MyFrog2.6" is also statement you simplified too much by skipping the part in italics. The OP said it's a good system for playing Norse warriors because it's lethal enough and stuff. From what I gathered from the reviews, Vikernes is paying lots of attention to the whole survivalism thing, so that might also be a factor.
Str limits for women also make sense to a lot of people. Funny enough, that's not even an issue in games that separate strength from combat ability enough, but I guess not even the latest version of MyFrog has a Combativity attribute;).

Quote from: Simlasa;943321I heard about the game first... and only heard about Varg's notoriety after some of the folks who usually make a stink about such things started making their usual stink. As for how photogenic and well-spoken he might be...

He's very well known to people into metal. Since that crowd got tired of his shit and that he hasn't made a decent album since going to jail I guess this is his attempt to sucker an even more microniche subculture. I never said anything about how photogenic he is, I judge him purely on his moronic statements and actions.

Well I've been away a few days, really busy at work, and popped back in to see how the "debate" is going.  I'm glad to see some do not see me as a monster.  Oh and the charge of racism is thrown around too often and frivolously, hate to break that news to you.  The good news is, a majority of people don't give racial differences a second thought.  We are just trying to get through our day.

As for my gaming, Conan Exiles was just released and boy will that game be quite the buzz for 2017, both positive and negative.  

As for MYFAROG, I intend to run an adventure set in Robert E Howard's El Borak Afghanistan between 1904 and 1914.  Maybe I'll develop it into a full blown campaign setting, using MYFAROG's The Coming (Modern / Post Apocalypse rules).  

There are no race based attributes, just HUMAN, in the post Apocalyptic setting in MYFAROG.

Quote from: Spinachcat;942566So...MYFROG is a D&D heartbreaker written by a nasty dude, thus we must chastise and demean all who enjoy the game...even though plenty of us probably have a D&D heartbreaker or two we enjoy.

Check.

You're smarter than this. It's not a 'heartbreaker'. It's a Neo-Nazi themed RPG based on Nazi Aryan pseudo-myths, advertised as "playing according to your European heritage".  It's a load of fucking bullshit.

Quote from: RPGPundit;944044You're smarter than this. It's not a 'heartbreaker'. It's a Neo-Nazi themed RPG based on Nazi Aryan pseudo-myths, advertised as "playing according to your European heritage".  It's a load of fucking bullshit.

Steve Bannon wrote an rpg? ;-)

Quote from: Bluddworth;943647Oh and the charge of racism is thrown around too often and frivolously, hate to break that news to you.
 

Yes, you've already made that assertion. If you're not going to bother supporting it, why would we even pretend to take it seriously?

Quote from: Willie the Duck;944152Yes, you've already made that assertion. If you're not going to bother supporting it, why would we even pretend to take it seriously?

Any time anyone disagreed with Obama on a policy issue, they were labeled a racist or minimally Obama was being held to a different standard because he was half black.  

Almost every time police had a violent altercation with a black perpetrator, it was an issue of race and not an issue of crime and punishment.

Race is too much a focus on everything, and I don't believe the average person goes through their day thinking about it.  The media pushes that crap because it sells.  Race peddlers push it because it boosts their self importance and their wallets.

If you demand more support, open your eyes and ears.  I long for my days in the US Army, where we were all brothers and sisters and if we were a color, we were all "Green".

Quote from: cranebump;944139Steve Bannon wrote an rpg? ;-)

Now I kinda wonder what we'd have if we could persuade Steve Bannon and Mike Pence to team up and write an RPG for the benefit of today's kids:D!

Quote from: Bluddworth;944162. . . I don't believe the average person goes through their day thinking about it.

What, in your mind, is an "average person?" Does an "average person" risk being pulled over by the cops because of the color of their skin? Does an "average person" risk being sworn at because of the clothes they wear?

Quote from: Black Vulmea;944487What, in your mind, is an "average person?" Does an "average person" risk being pulled over by the cops because of the color of their skin? Does an "average person" risk being sworn at because of the clothes they wear?

But "average people" don't have non-white skin.

Quote from: Bluddworth;944162Any time anyone disagreed with Obama on a policy issue, they were labeled a racist or minimally Obama was being held to a different standard because he was half black.  

Almost every time police had a violent altercation with a black perpetrator, it was an issue of race and not an issue of crime and punishment.

So, wait, your argument is that just because a few people sometimes bring race into the equation when they maybe should not, then nothing is ever racist?

Do you expect anyone here to take that seriously?

Quote from: Tristram Evans;944497So, wait, your argument is that just because a few people sometimes bring race into the equation when they maybe should not, then nothing is ever racist?

Do you expect anyone here to take that seriously?

Actually I think what he was saying is closer to "After a few years of every time someone cries "Wolf" there isn't one, you kind of have to see one for yourself to believe it".

It's basically "Yeah purple cried Racist, they always cry Racist, they also cry every other -ist." and applying to the culture at large, which is where the polished boots start peeking out from under the drapes. :D

Quote from: Black Vulmea;944487What, in your mind, is an "average person?" Does an "average person" risk being pulled over by the cops because of the color of their skin?

Does it matter if the average person might be pulled by the cops due to how he or she looks:)?

QuoteDoes an "average person" risk being sworn at because of the clothes they wear?

Happensall the time IME.

Admittedly, I'm talking about my country;).

Well there was never any doubt that Varg himself was racist. That is easy enough to confirm without buying his game.

There's no doubt HP Lovecraft was a racist either.

The narrator's black cat in Rats in the Walls is named...Nigger...after HPL's own cat "Nigger Man"

Authors - both talented and not talented - sometimes write really stupid shit.

Quote from: RPGPundit;944044You're smarter than this. It's not a 'heartbreaker'. It's a Neo-Nazi themed RPG based on Nazi Aryan pseudo-myths, advertised as "playing according to your European heritage".  It's a load of fucking bullshit.

That does seem to describe the setting. As I haven't read it (and probably won't), I can't debate if the setting is Nazi Aryan pseudo-myth or just yet another fever dream fantasy faux-Europe. Mechanically, MYFROG looks like a faux-Euro D&D semi-clone. That's why I call it another D&D heartbreaker.

I don't get the "play according to your European heritage" part at all. Is the game only supposed to be played by players descended from Northern Europeans?
Now that's a niche game.

Quote from: Bluddworth;943647As for MYFAROG, I intend to run an adventure set in Robert E Howard's El Borak Afghanistan between 1904 and 1914.  Maybe I'll develop it into a full blown campaign setting, using MYFAROG's The Coming (Modern / Post Apocalypse rules).

Why use The Coming vs. any other RPG ruleset?

Especially as you're a fan of Twilight 2000.


BTW, for everyone else, here's info on REH's El Borak
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Borak

Quote from: CRKrueger;944501Actually I think what he was saying is closer to "After a few years of every time someone cries "Wolf" there isn't one, you kind of have to see one for yourself to believe it".

By 2018, we will have a Disney Kid's show where "that's so Nazi" is a slang term for one kid being rude to another.

As a culture, we seem hell-bent on bastardizing and/or diluting ever bit of language.

Quote from: Spinachcat;944552There's no doubt HP Lovecraft was a racist either.

Lovecraft is 1) dead, 2) lived at a time where racism was socially acceptable, 3) created worthwhile art whose value extends beyond any archaic racist elements, and, most importantly, did not write for the purpose of promoting a racist agenda, his racist views were incidental to his art.

 So, I object to your use of "either" to imply there's some basis of comparison.

Quote from: CRKrueger;944501Actually I think what he was saying is closer to "After a few years of every time someone cries "Wolf" there isn't one, you kind of have to see one for yourself to believe it".

That as it may be, my response is, perhaps predictably, "you don't have access to Google?"

Quote from: Tristram Evans;944561did not write for the purpose of promoting a racist agenda, his racist views were incidental to his art.

I'm a Lovecraft fan and I even I can't get behind this one.  He certainly wasn't promoting a racist agenda, but his racist views to a certain degree drove his art.  Lovecraft's racism turned Miscegenation into Body Horror with the Deep Ones and Dunwich as the most obvious example.  The idea that there is something primitive, alien and evil locked in the bloodlines of humans and humans can devolve into that primordial state is an important part of Lovecraft's horror and is directly informed by his feelings on race and sex.

Lovecraft's art is the direct result of him struggling with his demons.

Quote from: CRKrueger;944599I'm a Lovecraft fan and I even I can't get behind this one.  He certainly wasn't promoting a racist agenda, but his racist views to a certain degree drove his art.  Lovecraft's racism turned Miscegenation into Body Horror with the Deep Ones and Dunwich as the most obvious example.  The idea that there is something primitive, alien and evil locked in the bloodlines of humans and humans can devolve into that primordial state is an important part of Lovecraft's horror and is directly informed by his feelings on race and sex. Lovecraft's art is the direct result of him struggling with his demons.

While I can see this interpretation, I think taking Lovecraft's work as a whole that parallels that can be drawn between racism and the horrors of the stories are relatively infrequent overall.

I think they are more subtle. I remember first reading them (long before the internet and knowing all this stuff about HPL). I admittedly was quite young, and stuff might have just gone over my head, but I recall getting through them and only interpreting it as having the same incidental racism that other turn of the century/early 20th century authors like Arthur Conan Doyle had.

Personally, I think Lovecraft went a step beyond incidental, even for the early 1900s, although I'll admit it doesn't show up in everything.

Quote from: Lovecraft's Poem "On the Creation of Niggers" (1912)When, long ago, the gods created Earth
In Jove's fair image Man was shaped at birth.
The beasts for lesser parts were next designed;
Yet were they too remote from humankind.
To fill the gap, and join the rest to Man,
Th'Olympian host conceiv'd a clever plan.
A beast they wrought, in semi-human figure,
Filled it with vice, and called the thing a Nigger.

I guess I meant the short stories. I certainly didn't read that when I was 11.

Quote from: CRKrueger;944599I'm a Lovecraft fan and I even I can't get behind this one.  He certainly wasn't promoting a racist agenda, but his racist views to a certain degree drove his art.  Lovecraft's racism turned Miscegenation into Body Horror with the Deep Ones and Dunwich as the most obvious example.  The idea that there is something primitive, alien and evil locked in the bloodlines of humans and humans can devolve into that primordial state is an important part of Lovecraft's horror and is directly informed by his feelings on race and sex.

Lovecraft's art is the direct result of him struggling with his demons.

Yeah, but on the other hand, if you never heard about Lovecraft's biography (the dead author interpretation), and obviously your copy does not have that poem (holy shit I did not know that existed), it is an extremely good horror story none the less. It does not rely on the reader accepting an assumption that Lesser Races Are More Likely To Degenerate to work and be coherent.

Quote from: Rincewind1;944623Yeah, but on the other hand, if you never heard about Lovecraft's biography (the dead author interpretation), and obviously your copy does not have that poem (holy shit I did not know that existed), it is an extremely good horror story none the less. It does not rely on the reader accepting an assumption that Lesser Races Are More Likely To Degenerate to work and be coherent.

I'll freely admit the work stands on it's own, and can be completely horrific without realizing the subtext of what might have been floating around in the author's subconscious.  I'm not arguing Lovecraft isn't worth reading or studying in his own right.

I just think there is a tendency to say "Yeah {something}ism, whatever, 19xx." as if 100 years ago people were some less-evolved species.  I think "different cultural norms" is used to explain away something uncomfortable about an artist without considering that aspect within the context of the art itself.  It's ok to say "You know what yeah, not only was so-and-so some kind of -ist, but it's the -isms that, like any personal failing or weakness, actually might have made him more effective as an artist".

All that having been said, I don't know that "Lesser Races Are More Likely To Degenerate" is really the theme.  I think it's more nebulous than that, a general fear and dread of the Other as expressed by different races and cultures that manifests as Primitive Religions of African and South Asian Harpooners, Tcho-Tcho's in the mountainous jungles of China and Cambodia, etc.  Cross that with Sex and you get Shub-Niggurath and The Dunwich Horror, but I think the Genetic Body Horror component really gets brought out best in Shadow Over Innsmouth as none of us can really know what monsters lie locked in our bloodline.

Quote from: Rincewind1;944623Yeah, but on the other hand, if you never heard about Lovecraft's biography (the dead author interpretation), and obviously your copy does not have that poem (holy shit I did not know that existed), it is an extremely good horror story none the less. It does not rely on the reader accepting an assumption that Lesser Races Are More Likely To Degenerate to work and be coherent.

Really? Wow, I'm definitely not a HPL fan, and I've read the poem, along with a few others!

Personally, I'd say that his attitude to other races is much harder to ignore or misunderstand than REH's, but that's me.

While it is regrettable that Lovecraft's racism seeped through his writing to taint his magnificient, lasting visions of oneiric fantasy and eldricht horror (like Howard's tainted his riveting tales of pulp adventure), with both authors it is entirely possible to reject the racist passages and still enjoy a good pulp tale.

Also, both men have been dead for nearly 80 years so you're not financing racists by buying their stuff. Hell, in the civilized world it's all public domain already.

But if you excise the racist bits of Varg's game, you're left with what? A shitty OSR vanity piece? In a world that's seen ACKS, AS&SH, DCC and other clever games, any TSR D&D-inspired ruleset has a tall bar to clear. Judging from the reviews it doesn't look like Arsonists & Aryans here does the trick. Also, did I mention it's a racist piece of shit?

To be perfectly honest, I have been waiting for this moment for years. Please allow me to savour the sublime moment in which I get to tell someone on the Internet, objectively and entirely justifiably:

YOUR FAVORITE GAME SUCKS AND YOU ARE A BAD PERSON FOR LIKING IT.

Thank you.

Quote from: The Butcher;944640YOUR FAVORITE GAME SUCKS AND YOU ARE A BAD PERSON FOR LIKING IT.

(http://i.giphy.com/b9aScKLxdv0Y0.gif)

Quote from: CRKrueger;944613Personally, I think Lovecraft went a step beyond incidental, even for the early 1900s, although I'll admit it doesn't show up in everything.

Wow...

I'm not going to stop my Call of Cthulhu campaign or anything but...wow.

Yeah, that little poem probably doesn't get a lot of play.

CoC is several editions past the point where the inspiration for it is no longer HPL, but former CoC editions and their "assumed" campaigns, IME.

Also, while it is possible that Myfarog does indeed suck, I'd reserve that judgement for after I've read it (probably never, given the lack of PDF). And even if it sucked, I wouldn't draw conclusions about the OP from liking it.

Quote from: AsenRG;944678CoC is several editions past the point where the inspiration for it is no longer HPL, but former CoC editions and their "assumed" campaigns, IME.

There's that.

Quote from: CRKrueger;944625q1I think "different cultural norms" is used to explain away something uncomfortable about an artist without considering that aspect within the context of the art itself.  It's ok to say "You know what yeah, not only was so-and-so some kind of -ist, but it's the -isms that, like any personal failing or weakness, actually might have made him more effective as an artist".

I think Lovecraft's two best stories that finally get out from under the shadow of Poe and his pulp roots are the late period Shadow Out of Time and Mountains of Madness, which are less dependent on the other stories fear of sex and miscegenation.

Quote from: CRKrueger;944613Personally, I think Lovecraft went a step beyond incidental, even for the early 1900s, although I'll admit it doesn't show up in everything.

I've seen the poem, but honestly forgot about it. From what I read on the subject way back when, Lovecraft's racism waned as he got older, with the influence of his wife being a big ameliorating factor, but I'm not going to try and excuse Lovecraft's racism so much as my point was that his stuff has value beyond the unfortunate elements that creeped into his work, which can be recognized for what it is and ignored while retaining the value of his contribution to the horror genre.

Quote from: CRKrueger;944625I just think there is a tendency to say "Yeah {something}ism, whatever, 19xx." as if 100 years ago people were some less-evolved species.  I think "different cultural norms" is used to explain away something uncomfortable about an artist without considering that aspect within the context of the art itself.  It's ok to say "You know what yeah, not only was so-and-so some kind of -ist, but it's the -isms that, like any personal failing or weakness, actually might have made him more effective as an artist".

I tend to see the opposite as a more prevalent problem: judging past societies based on modern cultural norms. To a certain extent I don't think Lovecraft's racism needs to be excused, because, well, what are we going to do, punish dead people? As to Lovecraft's moral failings contributing to the creation of his art, I think that's an interesting and incisive point I'm inclined to agree with.

To bring this digression vaguely back to the thread topic however, I don't know Varg's music, so I can't say what value it has divorced from his odious philosophies, but it does not appear that it aided in him creating an rpg of any particular value.

I want to make the more general point though, that while I'm calling out the OP on his defence of the game, and have spent plenty of text berating the game itself, I'm not calling for any sort of witchhunt of the OP or inclined to make any personal judgements on them. I'll take at face value the claim they simply like the system and do not engage with the racist elements thereof.

Quote from: AsenRG;944678CoC is several editions past the point where the inspiration for it is no longer HPL, but former CoC editions and their "assumed" campaigns, IME.

Even the first edition was at least as much Derleth as Lovecraft, even if HP gets the most screen time.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;944690Even the first edition was at least as much Derleth as Lovecraft, even if HP gets the most screen time.

Never seen it, but I suspect that you might be right.

I'm disappointed that one of the few moments where the game's content beyond thinly veiled racist polemic setting could be discussed -- how the weather tables function, so we can compare them to extant versions in D&D -- was deflected into a vapid back cover pitch

Still sticks in my craw.

(PS: I'm so glad none of you are paying attention to my Maztica.)

Quote from: CRKrueger;944625I'll freely admit the work stands on it's own, and can be completely horrific without realizing the subtext of what might have been floating around in the author's subconscious.  I'm not arguing Lovecraft isn't worth reading or studying in his own right.

I just think there is a tendency to say "Yeah {something}ism, whatever, 19xx." as if 100 years ago people were some less-evolved species.  I think "different cultural norms" is used to explain away something uncomfortable about an artist without considering that aspect within the context of the art itself.  It's ok to say "You know what yeah, not only was so-and-so some kind of -ist, but it's the -isms that, like any personal failing or weakness, actually might have made him more effective as an artist".

All that having been said, I don't know that "Lesser Races Are More Likely To Degenerate" is really the theme.  I think it's more nebulous than that, a general fear and dread of the Other as expressed by different races and cultures that manifests as Primitive Religions of African and South Asian Harpooners, Tcho-Tcho's in the mountainous jungles of China and Cambodia, etc.  Cross that with Sex and you get Shub-Niggurath and The Dunwich Horror, but I think the Genetic Body Horror component really gets brought out best in Shadow Over Innsmouth as none of us can really know what monsters lie locked in our bloodline.

I definitely agree that even by 1920s standards, Lovecraft was pretty bloody racist. Hells, he'd be pretty bloody racist by 1850s standards.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;944689To a certain extent I don't think Lovecraft's racism needs to be excused, because, well, what are we going to do, punish dead people?

A proper Leftist will make sure Lovecraft's works are never read but his soiled reputation is kept around to be scorned for all time.

Quote from: darthfozzywig;944768A proper Leftist will make sure Lovecraft's works are never read but his soiled reputation is kept around to be scorned for all time.

Take the politics to Pungency.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;944487What, in your mind, is an "average person?" Does an "average person" risk being pulled over by the cops because of the color of their skin? Does an "average person" risk being sworn at because of the clothes they wear?

Still wondering, Bluddy.

Quote from: Opaopajr;944738I'm disappointed that one of the few moments where the game's content beyond thinly veiled racist polemic setting could be discussed -- how the weather tables function, so we can compare them to extant versions in D&D --

RPGPundit has a thread about Man vs. Nature and a thread about Dark Albion's weather issues in his Forum. Weather issues would be a good new thread and Pundy's info would be good to cut and paste into it. He wrote an interesting discussion about rain and seasons in Dark Albion.

Quote from: Opaopajr;944738PS: I'm so glad none of you are paying attention to my Maztica.

Hush you and your inconvenient facts.

Maztica gets a pass because (1) most AD&D fans don't even know it (let alone non-AD&Ders); and (2) the TSR nostalgia glow.

In retrospect its a really, really weird TSR 2e release.

Quote from: The Butcher;944640While it is regrettable that Lovecraft's racism seeped through his writing to taint his magnificient, lasting visions of oneiric fantasy and eldricht horror (like Howard's tainted his riveting tales of pulp adventure), with both authors it is entirely possible to reject the racist passages and still enjoy a good pulp tale.

Also, both men have been dead for nearly 80 years so you're not financing racists by buying their stuff. Hell, in the civilized world it's all public domain already.

But if you excise the racist bits of Varg's game, you're left with what? A shitty OSR vanity piece? In a world that's seen ACKS, AS&SH, DCC and other clever games, any TSR D&D-inspired ruleset has a tall bar to clear. Judging from the reviews it doesn't look like Arsonists & Aryans here does the trick. Also, did I mention it's a racist piece of shit?

To be perfectly honest, I have been waiting for this moment for years. Please allow me to savour the sublime moment in which I get to tell someone on the Internet, objectively and entirely justifiably:

YOUR FAVORITE GAME SUCKS AND YOU ARE A BAD PERSON FOR LIKING IT.

Thank you.

Funny, I don't recall saying it was my favorite game.  It is just the current RPG I'm playing, and has taken a back burner to Conan Exiles at the moment.

REH's Conan RPG will most likely secure the brass ring and title of "My favorite Game".

Quote from: Tristram Evans;944497So, wait, your argument is that just because a few people sometimes bring race into the equation when they maybe should not, then nothing is ever racist?

Do you expect anyone here to take that seriously?

I never said there is no racism, just that the race card is over played.

It is exaggeration that I don't take seriously.  As to what you take seriously or not, not really my concern, your view is your own.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;944817Still wondering, Bluddy.

I don't think the average black person risks getting pulled over due to simply the color of their skin.  Holy crap, that would be millions of pull overs a day!  

"Risks" is the wrong word to use, because it just doesn't bear out in reality.  "Fears" might be a better choice, and then we could debate the merits of that fear based on personal experience versus a commonly held impression.

People who say the race card is overplayed are usually white. And statistics show that black males are disproportionately stopped by law enforcement. And fuck it--it's not a "card." It's reality, no matter how much "whitesplaining" people do. But I digress (and rant).

But on the gaming front...

...what a person plays in the privacy of your own home, indeed, what a person thinks, or how a person acts, in the privacy of their domicile ain't no thang, because it doesn't cause harm.

I think we could debate whether published works with racist views do harm over time, but we'd have to go case by case, and take into account the  context of the work, as well. I don't think MYFUCKWAD (or whatever it's called), is worth getting too worked up over. Small potatoes, in the grand scheme of things.

Quote from: cranebump;944891...what a person plays in the privacy of your own home, indeed, what a person thinks, or how a person acts, in the privacy of their domicile ain't no thang, because it doesn't cause harm.

Agreed, but on the other hand, if you just came to a first meeting of book club, you'd also not say you are an avid reader of Mein Kampf. It's not even about why you do it, it's just that simple social logic of first impression making.

It's like the guy who collected Hitler paintings from Justified.

Quote from: Rincewind1;944892if you just came to a first meeting of book club, you'd also not say you are an avid reader of Mein Kampf. It's not even about why you do it, it's just that simple social logic of first impression making.

So basically Bludworth is Catpissman? I can roll with that.

Quote from: Spinachcat;944552That does seem to describe the setting. As I haven't read it (and probably won't), I can't debate if the setting is Nazi Aryan pseudo-myth or just yet another fever dream fantasy faux-Europe. Mechanically, MYFROG looks like a faux-Euro D&D semi-clone.

It's  not 'faux-europe' so much as 'fake Nazi pseudo-history'.

QuoteI don't get the "play according to your European heritage" part at all. Is the game only supposed to be played by players descended from Northern Europeans?

Clearly, yes.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;945125So basically Bludworth is Catpissman? I can roll with that.

No, I'm just more open minded and less of a snowflake than you might be accustomed to.    I don't even support certain aspects of the author's perspective, and I am not ethnically or religiously where the author places his cultural perspective (I'm 50% Sicilian; 25% Ukrainian; 12.5% German; 12.5% Irish; and a Roman Catholic, albeit not very devout).

I judge the game simply on its merits as a game system.  I quite frankly don't see what all of the fuss is about and don't really care.  If you see blatant racism in the game, then don't play it. I hear blatant racism in a lot of Hip Hop, and I don't listen to it.

This may be coming to PnP RPGs next...  http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/sensitivity-readers-offensive-books/

When they came for Nazi RPGs, I did nothing, for I wasn't a na- oh wait, who gives a fuck.

Also, I like how your every post really stretches the good-willed assumption that you really found MYFAROG with neither knowledge of it's author nor game's world assumptions.

Quote from: Rincewind1;946354When they came for Nazi RPGs, I did nothing, for I wasn't a na- oh wait, who gives a fuck.

Also, I like how your every post really stretches the good-willed assumption that you really found MYFAROG with neither knowledge of it's author nor game's world assumptions.

You can believe whatever you like.  I never heard of either the game nor Varg (or the whole Black Metal scene) before I read a post on the Paizo forums calling for universal commendation for the game.  Being academic in my approach to things, I felt that I should investigate the game first-hand, before joinng said condemnation.  The core rules was cheap, and the physical quality of the book was impressive.  The game system itself was cumbersome only if you allowed it to be.  There were elements of the game that I found to be quite appealing, such as it being low fantasy and combat being more realistic than D&D (all versions I'm familiar with).  Certainly not a perfect game, but it was vastly improved in its 2.6 edition.

As for Varg's politics or even his music, meh!  It has no bearing on what I think of the game system.  As for his criminal history, again, I don't know the circumstances but regardless.... He did the time.  It's not like he was a child molester or a rapist.  

His music, not my bag.  Never liked thrash / death metal.  I more of a fan of Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, Slipknot, Disturbed kind of metal.

Burzum is not thrash or death metal but that neither here nor there but your link to a far right site is equally OT I guess.

Quote from: Voros;946380Burzum is not thrash or death metal but that neither here nor there but your link to a far right site is equally OT I guess.

Libertarian is now "far right"?

Oh yeah, no connection between internet libertarians and the far right. My mistake. :rolleyes:

Or you could hire one to make sure your books are offensive enough for your audience.  I'd hate to think one's latest black metal song fell short or let one's angry adolescent fans down in any way.

Apparently, sensitivity readers are a thing now.

More reason to read old stuff and independent stuff.

Fortunately, most of the best RPG stuff is independently produced.

Here's a Chicago Tribune article on it:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/books/ct-publishers-hiring-book-readers-to-flag-sensitivity-20170215-story.html

Quote from: Voros;946383Oh yeah, no connection between internet libertarians and the far right. My mistake. :rolleyes:

Libertarians aren't far right. Many libertarians would not consider themselves on the Right (or Left) at all.  They are a very diverse political group...which has been a hindrance for winning elections.

Quote from: Spinachcat;946408Apparently, sensitivity readers are a thing now.
(...)
Here's a Chicago Tribune article on it:
[url]http://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/books/ct-publishers-hiring-book-readers-to-flag-sensitivity-20170215-story.html[/url

That's kind of depressing. Sounds like a Catch 22 situation for the arts.

• If an author writes about something he/she isn't part of there's the risk of not being sensitive enough / misrepresenting the self-image of [insert marginalized group].
• If an author wants to not run that risk (or simply can't afford the service of a sensitivity reader*) and only writes about topics he/she can personally relate to there's the risk of being accused of not being inclusive enough and ignoring [insert marginalized group].

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Secondly, can we expect to see sensitivity readers employed to seeing the RPG hobby portrayed "correctly"?

* We are talking about the print media that often can't even afford proofreaders and editors.

Quote from: Spinachcat;946408Apparently, sensitivity readers are a thing now.

More reason to read old stuff and independent stuff.

Fortunately, most of the best RPG stuff is independently produced.

Here's a Chicago Tribune article on it:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/books/ct-publishers-hiring-book-readers-to-flag-sensitivity-20170215-story.html





Libertarians aren't far right. Many libertarians would not consider themselves on the Right (or Left) at all.  They are a very diverse political group...which has been a hindrance for winning elections.

I wonder if the Chicago Tribune is "Far Right"?  

This censorship will find its way into RPGs, even independently published ones, because the fascist SJW zombie brigade will label any material they disagree with as "racist", "misogynist", "cultural appropriation", "homophobic", "xenophobic" or any other Identity Political term and then call for universal condemnation or an outright boycott.  

To be fare, the same was done by the right back in the early 80's but not to the same fervor that we see the left engaging in it today.  Back in the 80's, listening to Heavy Metal and playing D&D was the mark of Satan, and we were likely to become serial killers or something.

Someone fire up Disney's Aladdin, because there's "a whole new world" out there to explore on these forums. The dedication to this clusterfuck topic is bizarre at this point.

Quote from: Bluddworth;946357I more of a fan of Judas Priest, Iron Maiden

You are on the path of redemption.

Quote from: Bluddworth;946435I wonder if the Chicago Tribune is "Far Right"?  

This censorship will find its way into RPGs, even independently published ones, because the fascist SJW zombie brigade will label any material they disagree with as "racist", "misogynist", "cultural appropriation", "homophobic", "xenophobic" or any other Identity Political term and then call for universal condemnation or an outright boycott.  

To be fare, the same was done by the right back in the early 80's but not to the same fervor that we see the left engaging in it today.  Back in the 80's, listening to Heavy Metal and playing D&D was the mark of Satan, and we were likely to become serial killers or something.

"Those who begin by burning books..."

Yeah, you know the rest of the quote. And neither part of the "political spectrum" is innocent of it.

Of course, my solution would be to back up Kickstarters/Patreons with the most offensive books I could find. And back Kickstarters/Patreons with the good books, too, making it a point to never account for how sensitive they are.
Enough people doing that, and you can tell any would-be, self-proclaimed censors to fuck off.

Quote from: Bluddworth;946435To be fare, the same was done by the right back in the early 80's but not to the same fervor that we see the left engaging in it today.  

Uh right, whatever. Where is the 20/20 special attacking RPGs from a left wing perspective? Where is the equivalent of B.A.D.D? Are left wing preachers speaking out against the evil of RPGs from their pulpits? Are people being harassed by their leftie parents for playing RPGs?

What a bunch of bullshit. Some tiny group on the net complaining about this or that is nothing in comparison the 80s Satanic Panic that included D&D.

Quote from: Bluddworth;946435This censorship will find its way into RPGs, even independently published ones,

I do not believe it will.

The PMRC couldn't dent Punk, Rap or Metal. And they had Congresscrappers! Back in the age where distribution channels were regulated through distributors and brick and mortar stores.

The Outrage Brigade doesn't stand a chance today to effectively censor our hobby or the most outrageous creators. PDF/POD is the new printing press. The genie is out of the bottle and there is nothing the SJWs can do but whine and cry about stuff they don't like.

Don't fear them.

Just mock them.

Quote from: Opaopajr;946463Someone fire up Disney's Aladdin,

OMG. Saw what you did there. Bad Opa!!

Quote from: Voros;946574Uh right, whatever. Where is the 20/20 special attacking RPGs from a left wing perspective? Where is the equivalent of B.A.D.D? Are left wing preachers speaking out against the evil of RPGs from their pulpits? Are people being harassed by their leftie parents for playing RPGs?

What a bunch of bullshit. Some tiny group on the net complaining about this or that is nothing in comparison the 80s Satanic Panic that included D&D.

I dunno about that, lets look at a direct comparison between BADD & SJWs:

BADD is focused entirely on RPGs and most specifically on D&D
SJWs are focused on all areas of life and entertainment including RPGs, video games, books, politics, and education

BADD's most obvious effect was the alteration of AD&D in 2nd edition to remove all references to devils, demons, and demonology.
SJW's most obvious effect on RPGs are ubiquitous disclaimers on genders, the classic WoD line rewriting itself to use newspeak pronouns and alter the settings to be PC friendly, and RPG companies frequently use social media now to advertise how inclusive they are/opposed to fascism, etc.

To my knowledge, no one in the rpg industry lost their job or were unable to find work because of BADD or the greater Satanic panic. Likewise no major retailer stopped carrying any RPGs.
The SJW's have caused numerous people to lose their jobs, limited their ability to find work, and bullied retailers into stop carrying products.

The Satanic Panic of which the D&D backlash was a small part led to whole groups of innocent people being jailed due to social hysteria. Many of these people spent 10 years of more of their lives in jail on patently false paranoid fantasies about child abusing cannabilistic Satanic cults before they were exonerated and released. Associated with the Panic was the rash of 'repressed memory syndrome' which led to thousands, if not tens of thousands of false accusations of ritualistic child sexual abuse.

So have these fearsome SJWs jailed dozens of innocent people for decades and destroyed untold numbers of families?

PS. The use of the term SJW in internet circles is as empty as 'fascist' by the left. An all purpose slur for anyone who holds an opposing viewpoint. A shortcut instead of thinking.

Quote from: Voros;946605The Satanic Panic of which the D&D backlash was a small part led to whole groups of innocent people being jailed due to social hysteria. Many of these people spent 10 years of more of their lives in jail on patently false paranoid fantasies about child abusing cannabilistic Satanic cults before they were exonerated and released. Associated with the Panic was the rash of 'repressed memory syndrome' which led to thousands, if not tens of thousands of false accusations of ritualistic child sexual abuse.

Yeah, I saw those documentaries, they weren't entirely convincing. But I'm willing to grant that overall one could make the case the satanic panic was as bad as SJWs. But BADD by itself, certainly not.

QuotePS. The use of the term SJW in internet circles is as empty as 'fascist' by the left. An all purpose slur for anyone who holds an opposing viewpoint. A shortcut instead of thinking.

No, its an actual thing. You can call the group what you want, but the group still exists.

I didn't watch a documentary, I lived through it. I saw Oprah and NBC and many others treat these accusations as true. People went to jail and have been released since. 'Repressed memory syndrome' has been discredited.

I have no idea what you mean by 'convincing.' You mean you believe there was a secret network of cannibalistic Satanists throughout North America kidnapping, sexually abusing and ritualistically eating thousands of babies and missing children?

Okay...

And Fascists are a real thing too, doesn't mean that everytime someone calls someone they disagree with a fascist that it is true.

Quote from: Voros;946612Fascists actually exist but thst doesn't mean everyone called a fascist really is one.

Okay, but if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck, chances are its not a monkey.

But at this point I think this tangent, if you want it to continue, should hence itself to Pungency.

The Satanic Panic was a much broader cultural event, most of the victims affected by it weren't D&D players.  Moms against D&D was a very small part of this phenomenon.  Music was a much greater factor.

Focusing only on the RPG industry effect, the SJWs are a much greater threat as their politics and ideology are present in a significant portion of RPG designers, if not a narrow majority.

The designers and players who made up the industry during the Satanic Panic weren't members of that Toxic Religious Movement.  With the SJW Cult, a lot of them are.

Quote from: CRKrueger;946629The Satanic Panic was a much broader cultural event, most of the victims affected by it weren't D&D players.  Moms against D&D was a very small part of this phenomenon.

Plus the leader of the anti-D&D thing was a total moron.  In an interview, she said that she estimated that a town was 10% Satan worshipers.  When asked where she got that, she said that it was because she estimated that 5% of the teens were Satan worshipers, and 5% of the adults were too - and that made 10%.

Basically - her son had committed suicide, and she was looking for something to blame other than herself no matter how far-fetched.

The real leaders of the anti-D&D movement were fundamentalist preachers. I see the point about far left anti-free speech types being a more integrated element in the hobby/industry but I'm not convinced they are the same existential threat.

Politically the pendulum can swing the other way in as little as 4 years (not coincidentally the length of time to secure a BA) and the current trend against free speech on the left could be in serious decline. One can already see a counter-reaction against smothering identity politics and dissent on the left.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;946613Okay, but if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck, chances are its not a monkey.

Or it's a monkey that's trolling you.

Quote from: AsenRG;946662Or it's a monkey that's trolling you.

thats not a reply that makes any sense in this context

Quote from: Voros;946661The real leaders of the anti-D&D movement were fundamentalist preachers.

Even among fundamentalist preachers - they were a crazy minority (albeit a very vocal one).  And they were generally basing their dislike of D&D on 3rd & 4th hand accounts about it.

Frankly - 'fundamentalist' isn't a very well defined term - so I suppose that I can't say that most are okay with D&D and its ilk depending upon how you define them.  But I personally have never had any issues with D&D & friends through church.  I even went to a Christian high school - and only 1 teacher I can think of ever said anything along those lines.  (About Harry Potter actually - but she was a bit kooky.  And blind - though I don't think that had anything to do with her being kooky - I do think it kept people from calling her out on her kookiness.)  Frankly - my Church friends are less likely to call out D&D as something negative than people I just work with when it comes up - and my brother-in-law (a pastor) has no issue with it, and occasionally even plays fantasy style board games with me.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;946663thats not a reply that makes any sense in this context

It was merely meant to remind you that there might be another explanation, too;).

Quote from: AsenRG;946682It was merely meant to remind you that there might be another explanation, too;).

An explanation for SJWs is they are all trolls? I don't see it, were not talking about a phenomenon relegated to online. This is a decades old political movent with far reaching consequences across Western society, directly responsible for racial segregation, covering up tapes and pedophilia, and harassing people to damage their lives.

And so it begins....  not so much in the OP, but in the comments that follow you can see the general trend.  http://massivelyop.com/2017/02/19/the-daily-grind-what-do-you-think-about-slavery-as-a-concept-in-mmorpgs/

Quote from: Tristram Evans;946685An explanation for SJWs is they are all trolls?

No, trolling was just an off-hand comment. There's no one-size-fits-all answer, anyway, many people that look racist look exactly like the thing they are:).

And then there are the other people, with all that their existence implies;).

Quote from: Bluddworth;946700And so it begins....  not so much in the OP, but in the comments that follow you can see the general trend.  http://massivelyop.com/2017/02/19/the-daily-grind-what-do-you-think-about-slavery-as-a-concept-in-mmorpgs/

Buck up buttercup. I think you're a POS based on this very thread but you're not gone yet. So chill and discuss what you prefer until you prov\\\\\\

Quote from: Marleycat;946967Buck up buttercup. I think you're a POS based on this very thread but you're not gone yet. So chill and discuss what you prefer until you prov\\\\\\

Name calling is sometimes the first refuge, and often the only refuge for someone who has no ideas of their own.  Maybe if you grow up a bit you can join in an adult conversation.

{Insert Popcorn gif of choice.}

Quote from: Marleycat;946967Buck up buttercup. I think you're a POS based on this very thread but you're not gone yet. So chill and discuss what you prefer until you prov\\\\\\

Somehow, I doubt he's a Product of Sums;).

Couple of points I noticed reading through this thread. Much hay was made over HP Lovecraft's racism, which was pretty prevalent at the time. There is no real disputing this, but it stemmed from a long list of phobias which while repugnant in the case of his overt racism, they actually went along with his xenophobia, technophobia, agoraphobia, and a whole host of other issues. While I don't excuse racism in modern authors and only tolerate it in those from earlier times, it was his list of phobias that truly informed his work. His existential dread of the "other" is largely what drove his fiction and made him one of the fathers of modern horror and science fiction.
In addition to that, it was stated that the moral panic of the D&D era was largely ineffectual in that it didn't stop major retailers from carrying games, etc. That wasn't entirely true, at least not where I live. At the time here, the only retailer carrying D&D was a place known as Hobby Lobby (yes the same one notable for the issues regarding insurance and birth control), as soon as the panic began and especially after the Sean Sellers link to D&D, no major . retailer carried RPG's. Luckily about that time, some small flgs opened to fill the void. Would that have not been the case, may have been years hence till I saw an RPG. My point is, it might be a bit dangerous to assume all of this hullaballoo amounts to nothing, it certainly did in my world.

I think the phobia that most informs Lovecraft's writing much more than his racism is his apparent fear and even disgust of sex. His failed marriage reflects this. Also compare his writing to those of his peers R.E.H. (lustful, powerful women) and Clark Ashton Smith (perverse and lustful with a strong sense of humour and irony).

Quote from: Bluddworth;946995Name calling is sometimes the first refuge, and often the only refuge for someone who has no ideas of their own.  Maybe if you grow up a bit you can join in an adult conversation.

I'm older then I prefer and I think you're a POS. Clear enough? It isn't name calling when you call a spade a spade. No offense sir but truth will not be hidden. It's okay that I don't buy your line it how the world works and makes things interesting.

Okay what is POS and what in the hell are you talking about Marleycat?

Quote from: Snowman0147;947423Okay what is POS and what in the hell are you talking about Marleycat?

POS=piece of shit. I don't like him. Deal with it. He plays a horrible game and tries to convince the ignorant that it's fine. I disagree and don't respect his point of view. Is that straightforward and clear enough? He won't be banned unless he pushes his racist crap but that doesn't mean I cannot dislike him.

Quote from: Voros;947342I think the phobia that most informs Lovecraft's writing much more than his racism is his apparent fear and even disgust of sex. His failed marriage reflects this. Also compare his writing to those of his peers R.E.H. (lustful, powerful women) and Clark Ashton Smith (perverse and lustful with a strong sense of humour and irony).

His phobia of sex is admittedly apparent enough, but it doesn't mean his racism wasn't influential for his works, too.

Quote from: Voros;947342I think the phobia that most informs Lovecraft's writing much more than his racism is his apparent fear and even disgust of sex. His failed marriage reflects this. Also compare his writing to those of his peers R.E.H. (lustful, powerful women) and Clark Ashton Smith (perverse and lustful with a strong sense of humour and irony).

Oh absolutely, though I hesitated to call it misogyny, it was more a gynophobia...in any case he was such a mixed bag of psychosis, that it is difficult to use him as a glaring example of an otherwise run of the mill racist, especially as it relates to his art.

Quote from: shuddemell;947434Oh absolutely, though I hesitated to call it misogyny, it was more a gynophobia...in any case he was such a mixed bag of psychosis, that it is difficult to use him as a glaring example of an otherwise run of the mill racist, especially as it relates to his art.

But we're not using him as an example of run of the mill racists, just of a person with views that would be unpopular today, who channeled those views into his art. That might be racism, his fear of sex, or any of his other psychosis that we have learned better how to treat:).

Admittedly, I don't really rate HPL highly, so it's arguable whether those things helped or hindered his work, but we can take it as a given that they did help shaping it;).

Quote from: AsenRG;947491But we're not using him as an example of run of the mill racists, just of a person with views that would be unpopular today, who channeled those views into his art. That might be racism, his fear of sex, or any of his other psychosis that we have learned better how to treat:).

Admittedly, I don't really rate HPL highly, so it's arguable whether those things helped or hindered his work, but we can take it as a given that they did help shaping it;).

Actually what was being done is saying he is worthy despite his racism, and I am making the suggestion in his very specific case that it wasn't in spite of, but partially because of his racism. It's obviously a rare case, and doesn't really apply to VV, but it seemed a distinction worth pointing out to me.

I certainly know what you mean shuddemell, I would say for instance at his best Mailer's greatest writing is about him wrestling with his machoism or Celine's best writing is part of his misanthropy.

But for me the best of Lovecraft is not The Shadows Over Innsmouth or The Dunwich Horror but The Shadow Out of Time and Mountains of Madness, stories where his racism is not only not significant but perhaps even refuted to a degree. The ending of Innsmouth has always struck me as oddly ecstatic though, which adds an interesting perhaps subconscious element to its theme of miscegnation.

Quote from: shuddemell;947654Actually what was being done is saying he is worthy despite his racism, and I am making the suggestion in his very specific case that it wasn't in spite of, but partially because of his racism. It's obviously a rare case, and doesn't really apply to VV, but it seemed a distinction worth pointing out to me.

Our flaws always push us just as much as our virtues. That's such a basic truth I don't think it's even worth debating whether it's possible:).

My point was that in HPL's case, he might have been a better writer if he was devoid of racism;).

Quote from: AsenRG;947807Our flaws always push us just as much as our virtues. That's such a basic truth I don't think it's even worth debating whether it's possible:).

My point was that in HPL's case, he might have been a better writer if he was devoid of racism;).

And you may be correct, but it also may be true that he would have been no kind of writer without it. It, to me, is just impossible to separate the two to the point where I can say, and I am hardly suggesting there would be a similar case for VV, there has to be artistic merit there in the first place either way.

Quote from: AsenRG;947807My point was that in HPL's case, he might have been a better writer if he was devoid of racism;).

He might have been better or worse, but in either case, what he wrote would have been different.

I would suggest that Lovecraft's unique vision didn't exactly come from his racism, but that they did both come from the same underlying source - his excessively strong need for order and purity and, for lack of a better term, comprehensibility, and his all-too-keen awareness of the fact that the world wasn't set up to provide any of those things. For a HP Lovecraft to be happy, the world would need to be safely bland and uniform and simple, with everyone looking and acting very much like himself.

Could you imagine a version of Lovecraft who was still like that, yet wasn't a racist? Maybe, to an extent. Difference in behaviour seems to have scared him more than difference in appearance - lily-white "degenerate" hillbillies gets the same treatment in his stories as mixed-race cultists. If he'd lived in a society where men and women of all races were completely integrated and brought up to behave in the exact same way and share the exact same values, I think he'd have gotten along fine with all of them - but I don't think there's any way he'd have ever viewed people from outside that society with anything but paranoid fear.

And I do think that that sense of kneejerk terror at anything that was the least bit different was part of what made him such an interesting writer. Brave and open-minded people, I think, don't write very good horror. If you want someone to write well about being scared, you want him to be someone who's easily frightened. ;)

Quote from: shuddemell;947813And you may be correct, but it also may be true that he would have been no kind of writer without it.

Possibly:). I can't really tell.

QuoteIt, to me, is just impossible to separate the two to the point where I can say, and I am hardly suggesting there would be a similar case for VV, there has to be artistic merit there in the first place either way.

Well, VV was considered a good musician, though I personally didn't like him much. I'll put off stating an opinion on MyFrog until I've read it (possibly, never).
 

Quote from: CRKrueger;947814He might have been better or worse, but in either case, what he wrote would have been different.

That's almost verbatim what I said a couple posts ago, Green One:D!

Quote from: Baeraad;947815I would suggest that Lovecraft's unique vision didn't exactly come from his racism, but that they did both come from the same underlying source - his excessively strong need for order and purity and, for lack of a better term, comprehensibility, and his all-too-keen awareness of the fact that the world wasn't set up to provide any of those things. For a HP Lovecraft to be happy, the world would need to be safely bland and uniform and simple, with everyone looking and acting very much like himself.

Excellent analysis, AFAICT, though I'm not exactly a scholar on this author's works;).
Also, it explains my first reaction upon reading many of his stories. It's "why is he making that to be such a big deal?" "That" varied, but the reaction was there after reading almost half of his works.

QuoteCould you imagine a version of Lovecraft who was still like that, yet wasn't a racist?

Yes.
There's even a series for a character like this, it's called "Monk":D.

QuoteMaybe, to an extent. Difference in behaviour seems to have scared him more than difference in appearance - lily-white "degenerate" hillbillies gets the same treatment in his stories as mixed-race cultists. If he'd lived in a society where men and women of all races were completely integrated and brought up to behave in the exact same way and share the exact same values, I think he'd have gotten along fine with all of them - but I don't think there's any way he'd have ever viewed people from outside that society with anything but paranoid fear.

So, in other words, he'd have felt fine in a remote kingdom up to the 19th century;). His curse was having been born in a rather cosmopolitan place!
I can see that. But I can also see how, if he wasn't the way he was, he might have been writing about the horror he felt when considering the idea that one day, those that insist on everybody acting the same way might get to rule the world:).
He'd have to situate it in a distant year, of course, like 1984...:D

QuoteAnd I do think that that sense of kneejerk terror at anything that was the least bit different was part of what made him such an interesting writer. Brave and open-minded people, I think, don't write very good horror. If you want someone to write well about being scared, you want him to be someone who's easily frightened. ;)

I've pondered that, but then I tend to remember that some horror authors I can think of didn't seem to be of the easily scared kind.
But being easily scared can almost certainly help in writing some kinds of horror, that's for sure. Let's leave it at that!

Quote from: AsenRG;947819Also, it explains my first reaction upon reading many of his stories. It's "why is he making that to be such a big deal?" "That" varied, but the reaction was there after reading almost half of his works.

Oh, definitely. A lot of the time, I feel like the end of his stories go like this:

LOVECRAFT: "Monsters... EXIST!"
*beat*
ME: "Yeah, and? Are they going to do anything?"
LOVECRAFT: "Good heavens, no! That would be far too upsetting! But they're sitting there, all sorts of, you know, existing and stuff! Doesn't that horrify you?"
ME: "Dude... >_<"

Quote from: AsenRG;947819So, in other words, he'd have felt fine in a remote kingdom up to the 19th century;). His curse was having been born in a rather cosmopolitan place!

Pretty much. In particular, I think he'd been happy as a pig in muck if he'd gotten to be a monk in some medieval convent. An ordered daily regimen, scholarly and artistic pursuits, austere surroundings, and absolutely nothing allowed that could be in any way, shape or form upsetting. :p

Quote from: Baeraad;947822Pretty much. In particular, I think he'd been happy as a pig in muck if he'd gotten to be a monk in some medieval convent. An ordered daily regimen, scholarly and artistic pursuits, austere surroundings, and absolutely nothing allowed that could be in any way, shape or form upsetting. :p

So - he would have been happy if he'd had a safe space to live in?

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;947823So - he would have been happy if he'd had a safe space to live in?

Pretty much. Oversensitive conservatives yearn for them just as much as oversensitive liberals, you know. ;)

Quote from: Baeraad;947822Oh, definitely. A lot of the time, I feel like the end of his stories go like this:

LOVECRAFT: "Monsters... EXIST!"
*beat*
ME: "Yeah, and? Are they going to do anything?"
LOVECRAFT: "Good heavens, no! That would be far too upsetting! But they're sitting there, all sorts of, you know, existing and stuff! Doesn't that horrify you?"
ME: "Dude... >_<"

Yeah, this:)!

QuotePretty much. In particular, I think he'd been happy as a pig in muck if he'd gotten to be a monk in some medieval convent. An ordered daily regimen, scholarly and artistic pursuits, austere surroundings, and absolutely nothing allowed that could be in any way, shape or form upsetting. :p

Actually, given what was going on in some convents, he might have started writing stories about how sins lead to corruption, and that's horrific:D!

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;947823So - he would have been happy if he'd had a safe space to live in?

Quote from: Baeraad;947824Pretty much. Oversensitive conservatives yearn for them just as much as oversensitive liberals, you know. ;)

I suspect "oversensitive" is the keyword here, not political affiliation;).

I think too, that a factor to his unique brand of racism was that it really didn't come from a place of hatred, but rather fear of the unknown. While these both can lead to the same place, in Lovecraft's instance it primarily drove his art and no so much to him actively hating anyone. This obviously is a minor distinction, but is the one that leads me to the conclusion that whatever his real degree of racism was, it cannot be adequately judged by modern standards, or even common standards. To do so requires a great deal of deconstruction which leaves you with something other than HP Lovecraft.