Could someone familiar with both compare and contrast them?  Most gamers I know are either proclaiming D&D Next as the next great Fantasy RPG or have fallen in love with Hackmaster 5e and given up on D&D.  I'd like to learn how they differ.

They have nearly nothing in common aside from a rather (at this point) theoretical connection to "Dungeons and Dragons".

I agree with Piestro. Hackmaster is AD&D1e "to the max LOL". D&D5e seems like an attempt to improve and simplify D&D3e. There are not really directly comparable.

I though HM 6 was a totally new system after the contract that allowed em to do "4e" expired?

I only own the new(er) Hacklopedia.

Quote from: TristramEvans;710027I though HM 6 was a totally new system after the contract that allowed em to do "4e" expired?

I only own the new(er) Hacklopedia.

It is new but it shares an ancestor with D&D.

Quote from: Skywalker;710022I agree with Piestro. Hackmaster is AD&D1e "to the max LOL". D&D5e seems like an attempt to improve and simplify D&D3e. There are not really directly comparable.

AD&D1e "to the max" sounds fantastic, could you elaborate?

Quote from: RabidWookie;710046AD&D1e "to the max" sounds fantastic, could you elaborate?

Hackmaster Basic is free to download from DTRPG.

Quote from: Skywalker;710022Hackmaster is AD&D1e "to the max LOL".

This was the case with the previous version (4.0) of HackMaster. It is no longer so with HM5e.

HM5 is no longer one big in-joke, but an actual serious attempt at being its own thing. While it is not without its humor, it has moved away from what is portrayed in KotDT. Kingdoms of Kalamar is now the implied setting instead of Garweeze Wurld. The new HackMaster is a great game in and of itself, but I think to many people still see it through HM4e jaded glasses (i.e. still a joke) and don't see it for the great system it has become. It really is an improvement over HM4e in every way.

If you are curious about the new HackMaster, then I highly recommend that you download the free HackMaster Basic pdf. When they release the 5e Players Handbook, they made the previously released HMb free to the public. This will give you a good idea of what the new HackMaster is like. HMb gives you a handful of classes, races and levels 1-5, but it is in essence a "basic" HM5e.

You can download the HMb pdf here at this link.

From my read, Hackmaster is very dependent on a grid.

Yuck.

5e promises not to be.

Yes, I find grids yucky too.

Quote from: 1989;710169From my read, Hackmaster is very dependent on a grid.

Yuck.

5e promises not to be.

It's not.  The only time we use a map is when battles have a lot of participants and a lot of stuff going on.  But we did AD&D that way too.  To me, you can play it just like AD&D.  Even for the things that are specific, like "push opponent 10 feet away."  Estimations work fine just like movement rates and AOE spells in AD&D

Hackmaster 5e leans on the Old School methodologies while I feel 5e is trying to innovate in a way that maintains compatibility. I am not as familiar with Next, so I will give my two cents on Hackmaster. Disclaimer: I am running HM5e and I really like it.

• Hackmaster rewards players for rolling and keeping ability scores, rolled in order, and making a character that best fits what you rolled. You get a bonus 50 BP for that. If you swap 2 scores, you get 25 BP, if you swap more you get 0 BP bonus.
• Several abilities impact attack bonus, defense, initiative and various aspects of doing things. There aren't any "dump stats". They are all rated in the 15/50 format and improvements are made in fractional points. The ability tables take into account higher fractional scores (having a 14/70 will be better than having a 14/30).
• Hackmaster is a class/level based system that uses Build Points (BP) to customize your character. These are primarily used for weapon specialization, proficiencies, and buying skills. There are also several talents one can customize their character with (akin to feats, but not nearly as many).
• Hackmaster uses a percentage-based skill system and has a decent list of skills (probably 50% more than say standard d20 skill list). For standard skill you roll under the % with potential reduction in your dice roll based on task difficulty. For opposed roll you add up the numbers to beat your opponents roll with potential bonus to dice roll based on task difficulty. The skills include details for what a person "could" do at that skill level.
• Combat is handled via opposed d20 rolls (usually). It gives a penalty to the defense roll if you don't have a shield (d20-4). Also, if harried by many opponents, struck from behind or surprised your defense die is smaller (d12 or a d8).
• Initiative is determined by rolling a die based on the overall awareness of the party (d12 down to a d6). Some abilities modify this number. This is the first count you get to act on. Ambushers go on 1.
• Combat uses an innovative "count up" mechanism. The GM starts at 1 (representing one second) and counts up. You can move on each second if not engaged. First strike is determined by weapon reach. Actions and weapons have a speed rating that includes things like recovery, so you add the speed to the current count to determine when you go next. It actually really fast once everyone learns standard speeds. Also, I personally love it because everyone is participating all the time. Things are fluid and combat keeps player's attention.
• Armor absorbs damage and hinders movement/skills. There are optional rules for armor, shield and weapon damage.
• Hackmaster uses traditional healing methods (first aid, natural healing, and divine magic). There are not artificial "recoveries" and the like.
• The Clerics are well detailed with some 30 faiths in the book and more to come. Kalamar is a super detailed setting leaning on the human-centric grittier side of things.
• Arcane magic uses Spell Points and you can pump up spells with them (which is awesome). Divine magic uses larger spell lists with a number of spells per day scheme. There are some awesome ideas for Divine magic. You can be anointed in your faith which makes all divine magic from a cleric of that deity more effective on you!
• HP scales reasonably and you start with more HP. Every other level you re-roll the previous HP roll for a chance to improve versus a new HD at every level. Numbers don't escalate as fast, so despite having 20+ levels, I don't see combat becoming unwieldy at higher levels.

There's a lot to it. It has some crunch to it, but not excessive crunch for my tastes. I love the little details. It's not AD&D, but it's heavily inspired by it. I wish I would have had a game like this when I was tired of 2e! It scratches my trad fantasy game itch in a way that I can appreciate.

Quote from: Skywalker;710022I agree with Piestro. Hackmaster is AD&D1e "to the max LOL". D&D5e seems like an attempt to improve and simplify D&D3e. There are not really directly comparable.

That was Hackmaster 4e. Hackmaster 5e is a different system covering the same fantasy sub genre as D&D Next.

4e was AD&D pushed to the max and then some. It hard to describe but it is unbelievably how it executed. The catch is that require an interest level similar to d20 with all the books, GURPS, or Hero system.

5e is a skill based system where the skill cost and abilities are determined by what class and race you take.

It most unique feature is that it doesn't have combat rounds. Instead you initiative roll determines your starting second and every action takes so many seconds to complete or recover from. The referee starts at the lowest initiative and counts up when he gets to a character's number the character take an action and player/referee notes the next time they can act.

You can read a KoDT combat example from this link

It is about at Runequest level of complexity.

D&D Next is similar in complexity to Blood & Treasure, Labyrinth Lord, Swords & Wizardry Complete.

Quote from: estar;710255It most unique feature is that it doesn't have combat rounds. Instead you initiative roll determines your starting second and every action takes so many seconds to complete or recover from. The referee starts at the lowest initiative and counts up when he gets to a character's number the character take an action and player/referee notes the next time they can act..

That's almost exactly how I've been running Altus Adventum for the past 13 years.

I can't say I'm interested at all in Hackmaster 5e.  Its like as if Pathfinder decided to do a "new edition" where the system was changed to run on dice pools or something.

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