i've grown weary of pseudo-medieval settings for d&d and i'd like to try something different. i've always liked sword & sandals movies and a more fantastic version of ancient mesopotamia seems like it would be an interesting place in which to play. i've read through green ronin's testament and necromancer games' "ancient kingdoms: mesopotamia," and i was wondering if anyone could recommend any other source material. i'm particularly interested in the akkadian civilization. thanks for the help!
daniel
I got this book for Christmas and have read about halfway through it. It really tries to give personality for the major players back then.
http://www.amazon.com/History-Ancient-World-Earliest-Accounts/dp/039305974X
I also have some Warfare in the Ancient World books, but they seem to always start sometime after Mesopotamia.
I have a lot of books on Mesopotamia from my college research. I found the following two good for gaming application, though their scholarly value (esp. the first) is a tiny bit suspect (who can really tell, though?):
http://www.amazon.com/Daily-Ancient-Mesopotamia-Karen-Nemet-Nejat/dp/1565637127/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235152251&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/Everyday-Life-Ancient-Mesopotamia-Bott%C3%A9ro/dp/0801868645/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b
Between the Rivers by Harry Turtledove
http://www.amazon.com/Between-Rivers-Harry-Turtledove/dp/0812545206/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235153654&sr=8-1
Captures the feel of living in a fantasy Mesopotamia.
These are not Mesopotamia but are a great source for gaming in Classical Greece.
Over the Wine-dark Sea also by Turtledove
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b_0_13?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=over+the+wine-dark+sea&x=0&y=0&sprefix=over+the+wine
and the other in the series
The Gryphon's Skull, The Sacred Land, and Owls to Athens.
you guys are awesome. thanks so much. the books are ordered and will be on their way shortly. ken, you mentioned that you had noticed that those two texts were particularly applicable for gaming... have you run a mesopotamian fantasy game before? if so, what did you use? i was thinking of just going with something like swords & wizardry... i've been looking for an excuse to run it and the starkness and simplicity of the rules seem somehow appropriate to me.
Hey, oktoberguard,
I used a homebrew set of rules inspired by Paul Elliot's Zenobia (http://www.geocities.com/zozergames/zenobia.html), which is worth looking into if you like simple games. My game was short-lived; not many of my players were as enthused about the setting as I was. I do hope to revive it one day; still have my notebooks and maps.
If you live near a college, I'd check their library for resources, as well. There's a great archaeological study called Nippur Neighborhoods that tracks the development of various neighborhoods in Nippur (thus the title!) over time. If you read between the lines, you get a vivid picture of inter-familial relations, how land deals were done, etc. It was immensely helpful in imagining how life was in those early cities. The study should be fairly easy to obtain, as it's a landmark reference work.
EDIT: Here's the info on the Nippur book (http://www.amazon.com/Neighborhoods-Studies-Ancient-Oriental-Civilization/dp/0918986508/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235160746&sr=8-1).
Just remembered another:
http://www.amazon.com/Life-Ancient-Near-3100-332-B-C-E/dp/0300076665/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235160746&sr=8-5
This one I really liked. Still refer to it every now and then.
Quote from: KenHR;284690Hey, oktoberguard,
I used a homebrew set of rules inspired by Paul Elliot's Zenobia (http://www.geocities.com/zozergames/zenobia.html), which is worth looking into if you like simple games. My game was short-lived; not many of my players were as enthused about the setting as I was. I do hope to revive it one day; still have my notebooks and maps.
If you live near a college, I'd check their library for resources, as well. There's a great archaeological study called Nippur Neighborhoods that tracks the development of various neighborhoods in Nippur (thus the title!) over time. If you read between the lines, you get a vivid picture of inter-familial relations, how land deals were done, etc. It was immensely helpful in imagining how life was in those early cities. The study should be fairly easy to obtain, as it's a landmark reference work.
EDIT: Here's the info on the Nippur book (http://www.amazon.com/Neighborhoods-Studies-Ancient-Oriental-Civilization/dp/0918986508/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235160746&sr=8-1).
i'll check for that, thanks. i've heard that the u penn museum of archaeology and anthropology has a pretty impressive mesopotamian collection, and that's just over the river from where i live. i may have to head over and check it out for inspiration.
I've always wanted to run a similar game, and also one set in ancient Egypt. For a mythic Mesopotamia I think that I would emphasize the city vs. wilderness theme, with the PCs being the agents of order, sallying forth to tame the savage forces of nature ala Gilgamesh and his fight with Humbaba.
The city is new and vibrant, and the wilderness impossibly old and filled with danger and supernatural power. And I think that there would be some interesting interplay between the wishes of the gods and mankind. In the Humbaba story, as I recall, the gods were not entirely happy with Gilgamesh whacking the big guy. There would also be some good room to explore the "goodness" of civilization, as with Enkidu's rebuke of it on his deathbed and desire to go back to a state of nature.
I think that the idea of using Swords & Wizardry for such a project would be a great choice. I like its simplicity in general, but I think that it would also give a nice "primeval" feel to the affair. And I think that just having Fighting Man, Cleric, and Magic User would work well for ancient Mesopotamia.
TGA
I find that the Time-Life series of books (The Hittites, The First Horsemen etc) and other coffee-table type books are great sources for RPGs. They have good pics and information of about the same level as an RPG sourcebook.
I think Osprey also does a couple of books on the ancient Middle East.
Quote from: The Good Assyrian;284709I've always wanted to run a similar game, and also one set in ancient Egypt. For a mythic Mesopotamia I think that I would emphasize the city vs. wilderness theme, with the PCs being the agents of order, sallying forth to tame the savage forces of nature ala Gilgamesh and his fight with Humbaba.
The city is new and vibrant, and the wilderness impossibly old and filled with danger and supernatural power. And I think that there would be some interesting interplay between the wishes of the gods and mankind. In the Humbaba story, as I recall, the gods were not entirely happy with Gilgamesh whacking the big guy. There would also be some good room to explore the "goodness" of civilization, as with Enkidu's rebuke of it on his deathbed and desire to go back to a state of nature.
I think that the idea of using Swords & Wizardry for such a project would be a great choice. I like its simplicity in general, but I think that it would also give a nice "primeval" feel to the affair. And I think that just having Fighting Man, Cleric, and Magic User would work well for ancient Mesopotamia.
TGA
you and i are of a like mind on this, especially as regards s&w. no thief? no problem!
the richness of the setting for fantasy gaming leaves me scratching my head and wondering why it hasn't been tapped for gaming more often (although perhaps tekumel and athas/dark sun sorta scratch the same itch). gods? demons? heroes? monsters? empires rising and falling? lost civilizations? it's got it all.
Quote from: oktoberguard;284715you and i are of a like mind on this, especially as regards s&w. no thief? no problem!
Exactly! The thief just seems too "urban" for this kind of primeval setting.
Quote from: oktoberguard;284715the richness of the setting for fantasy gaming leaves me scratching my head and wondering why it hasn't been tapped for gaming more often (although perhaps tekumel and athas/dark sun sorta scratch the same itch). gods? demons? heroes? monsters? empires rising and falling? lost civilizations? it's got it all.
Yeah, all of the elements are there, but I think that Mesopotamia is pretty obscure to the casual gamer. I am more surprised that there hasn't been more use of ancient Egypt in RPGs - with all the exposure and interest in Egypt in the Western world for the last 100 years. I guess that the default fantasy setting for RPGs resembles what we are most comfortable identifying as "fantasy", largely derived from Tolkien, Howard, etc who in turn drew upon medieval European tropes.
TGA
Check out Kengir, and AD&D homebrew setting for Mesopotamia, too. I didn't end up using much for my game (most of what I liked in it I already had in some form), but it might be helpful. Link available here:
http://gnba.netdemons.com/books/olik/Creativity_Design.html
Quote from: KenHR;284734Check out Kengir, and AD&D homebrew setting for Mesopotamia, too. I didn't end up using much for my game (most of what I liked in it I already had in some form), but it might be helpful. Link available here:
http://gnba.netdemons.com/books/olik/Creativity_Design.html
Nice resource! Thanks!
TGA
I re-downloaded Kengir, myself. Looking at it now, I think I disregarded a lot of the doc because it was a bit more of a "straight" reading of Sumer into AD&D terms. My little world of Dumurra was more "inspired" by Sumer...played a bit fast and loose with history and the like. I'm much more impressed with Kengir now.
Here's a question. What would be a good campaign setup for such a setting? The traditional wandering swords meeting in a tavern (beer being a huge part of Mesopotamian life, but even though it was shared with straws I am unsure if it was in a drunk communal location) and seeking adventure?
I was thinking about the idea of the PCs being the trusted companions of a city-state ruler ala Gilgamesh. They would be sent out on missions to the wilds when the big guy is busy running the city, or they might be tasked with dealing with problems in the city while he is away fighting wars with other cities, etc. There would be plenty of room for everything from fantastic monsters to political intrigue within the temples.
What do you think?
TGA
Hiya,
I would absolutely avoid the 'rootless wanderer and inns' approach; it isn't right for the setting, and nullifies the 'exoticism' that makes the setting attractive. Baaaad cliché...
The 'buddies of the King' approach is better. A king could act as patron, while the player-characters themselves are junior royal relatives, royal officials or even trusted slaves.
They could even be members and followers of an exiled royal family from another state given refuge: an exiled group of princes and their charioteers, acting as their host-protector's loyal guest-friends.
As for source material, in addition to Nemet-Nejat's book I'd advise the following books:
http://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Near-East-3000-330-Routledge/dp/0415167620/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235248915&sr=1-3 (http://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Near-East-3000-330-Routledge/dp/0415167620/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235248915&sr=1-3)
Amélie Kuhrt: The Ancient Near East c. 3000-330 BC (2 vols.)
An excellent, if serious, general introduction, to get a good 'feel' for the region and period; the second volume starts with the late Bronze Age (circa 1200 BC), but it looks as if you have to buy both volumes (not a bad thing, as they make an excellent set!)
If you need a good overview of the region, its history and its societies, this is the one to get!
http://www.amazon.com/Gods-Demons-Symbols-Ancient-Mesopotamia/dp/0292707940/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235248880&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Gods-Demons-Symbols-Ancient-Mesopotamia/dp/0292707940/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235248880&sr=8-1)
Jeremy Black and Anthony Green: Gods, Demons and Symbols of Ancient Mesopotamia.
Good place for finding your gods, demons and monsters...
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/ancient_world/ (http://www.ospreypublishing.com/ancient_world/)
Osprey Men At Arms series; there are various volumes on the ancient Egyptian, Assyrian and other armies, Mycenean and Hittite Bronze Age fortresses, war chariots etc. It's not just the information, but the splendid illustrations that make them must have source material...
Finally, 'Les Voyages d'Alix' is a series of illustrated books about the ancient world; the range of published volumes ranges from costumes (3 volumes, the first one is the most interesting if you want to run a campaign in the Bronze Age Middle East) to ships and various locations (alas, no Babylon or Ur yet...)
Here's a list of volumes with example pages:
http://www.bedetheque.com/serie-3301-BD-Alix-(Les-voyages-d-).html# (http://www.bedetheque.com/serie-3301-BD-Alix-(Les-voyages-d-).html#)
The books themselves, if you're living in North America, can be ordered from Amazon Canada:
http://www.amazon.ca/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=les+voyages+d%27alix&x=0&y=0 (http://www.amazon.ca/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=les+voyages+d%27alix&x=0&y=0)
Hope this helps,
Chariovalda
The Gods, Demons and Symbols book is excellent; I found a copy at local used books store.
TGA, in Dumurra I had the PCs start as members of a temple in one of the major cities. The free-spirited wanderers idea just doesn't work, as Chariovalda says.
(btw, welcome to the board, Chariovalda!)
Quote from: KenHR;284692Just remembered another:
http://www.amazon.com/Life-Ancient-Near-3100-332-B-C-E/dp/0300076665/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235160746&sr=8-5
This one I really liked. Still refer to it every now and then.
This book is excellent and enjoyable to read. I second the recommendation.
If you are interested in a traveling game, you may want to consider that there was some really long-distance trade going on in the Bronze Age. While it's written from a Harappan perspective, the book Trading Encounters: From the Euphrates to the Indus in the Bronze Age by Shereen Ratnagar (http://www.amazon.com/Trading-Encounters-Euphrates-Bronze-Collection/dp/019568088X/) does an excellent job of covering the resources being traded during the period and where they came from (the book even includes a fold out resource and trade map not unlike the ones you'll find in RPG books that goes from Mesopotamia to the Indus Valley) and a map of trade routes through the ancient Persian Gulf. The novel
Between the Rivers (mentioned earlier) has a trading journey component to it, though they run into Mycenaeans (the terminology used for titles such as "wanax" and "lawagetas" are Mycenaean).
I've got a lot of books about the Bronze Age but my focus is more Mycenaean, Minoan, and Hittite than Egyptian or Mesopotamian. Basically, it's an interesting period of human history that's got a lot of things going on that make it suitable for role-playing adventure, either straight, fictionalized, or in fantasy form. If you want to do an ancient-based fantasy world, I highly recommend taking a look at Bruce Trigger's Early Civilizations: Ancient Egypt in Context (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Early-Civilizations/Bruce-G-Trigger/e/9789774243653/) which compares various ancient cultures and abstracts out various traits that they exhibit:
QuoteFor anthropologists an 'early civilization' is historically the earliest form of a class-based society. In this original and provocative book, Bruce Trigger places our understanding of ancient Egypt in perspective through a comparative examination of Egypt during the Old and Middle Kingdoms with the early civilizations of the Inkas, the Shang and Western Chou of China, the Aztecs and their neighbors, the classic Mayas, the Yorubas and Benin, and ancient Mesopotamia. Professor Trigger investigates the economic foundations of these early civilizations, their politics and culture, and their religious traditions, drawing some surprising conclusions. His innovative work adds a new dimension to our understanding of early civilizations, charting new courses for their study in the future and indicating for both anthropologists and Egyptologists the value of comparative studies. Enhanced by an important bibliographical essay, the book broadens our understanding of the similarities and differences among ancient civilizations.
It's a small easy-to-read book full of great details to put into an ancient fantasy setting. It's only $16 and I highly recommend it.
If you are a really glutton for punishment or a real fan of ancient history, he's more recently written the much more comprehensive Understanding Early Civilizations : A Comparative Study (http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Early-Civilizations-Comparative-Study/dp/0521705452/). Where the first book is a nice terse 168 pages, this one is 757 pages.
Personally, I advise against using Trigger's 'Understanding Early Civilisations'.
Not because it is a bad book, but it is, relatively speaking, rather dry and sometimes hard to get through, mainly due to its size. At heart, it is a 'compendium of facts' for the use of comparing different civilisations, but it lacks the ease of use of a book organised along the lines of an encyclopedia, and it is not as readable as a more conventional history book.
There's two titles I'd like to add to my recommendations:
J.N. Postgate: 'Early Mesopotamia. Society and Economy at the Dawn of History'.
http://www.amazon.com/Early-Mesopotamia-Society-Economy-History/dp/0415110327/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235311816&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Early-Mesopotamia-Society-Economy-History/dp/0415110327/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235311816&sr=1-1)
A good overview of the subject matter mentioned in the title. It's a good addition to Amélie Kuhrt's two volumes, providing more in-depth information concerning Early Bronze Age Mesopotamia.
W.J. Hamblin: 'Warfare in the ancient Near East to 1600 BC. Holy Warriors at the Dawn of History'.
http://www.amazon.com/Warfare-Ancient-Near-East-History/dp/0415255899 (http://www.amazon.com/Warfare-Ancient-Near-East-History/dp/0415255899)
An excellent book all in all, with plenty of nice, evocative literary quotes and a general “feel” for the ebb and flow of Near Eastern Bronze Age political and military history.
For instance, the book was able to inform me that Bronze Age Mesopotamian city-states had “sacred” named standards and weapons, like “Mace-unbearable-for-the-regions” and “Slaughterer-of-a-myriad”. Or how about this triumphal hymn to Inanna/Ishtar, in her aspect as war goddess:
Drums, silver inwrought, they are beating for her -
Before Holy Inanna, before her eyes, they are parading -
The Great Queen of Heaven, Inanna, I will hail!
Holy tambourines and holy kettledrums they are beating for her
The guardsmen have combed their hair for her
They have made colourful for her the back hair with coloured ribbons
On their bodies are sheepskin robes, the dress of divinities
They are girt with implements of battle
Spears, the arms of battle, are in their hands
Playfully, with painted buttocks, they engage in single combat
Captive enemy lads in neck stocks bewail to her their fate
Daggers and maces rage before her
The kurgaru warriors mounted on chariots swing the maces
Gore is covering the daggers, blood sprinkles
In the courtyard of the place of the assembly
The temple administrator-priests are shedding blood
As loudly resounds there the music of tigi-harps, tambourines and lyres.
Now, if you can't make an evocative roleplaying scene out of the above, I would check your pulse.
Blood, bronze and human sacrifice, what more do you want?
Cheers,
Chariovalda
Quote from: Chariovalda;285008Personally, I advise against using Trigger's 'Understanding Early Civilisations'.
Well, that's why I started out the mention of that book with, "If you are a really glutton for punishment or a real fan of ancient history..." No, it's not a book one would casually read. I mentioned it because it's Trigger's more recent work on the subject and it isn't the same as his earlier "Early Civilizations: Ancient Egypt in Context", which was the book I was really recommending.
The earlier book ("Early Civilizations: Ancient Egypt in Context") can be casually read and doesn't get bogged down in minutia. It's shorter (168 pages), easy to get through, and not dry (in my opinion). I think it's an excellent guide for the sorts of things that one should think about while crafting a fantasy ancient civilizations (the sections in the index are agriculture, kinship, land ownership, taxation, authority, army, inequality, class hierarchy, social mobility, administrative control, status symbols, tribute, trade, monumental architecture, art, values and lifestyle, concept of deity, cosmology, humanity and the gods, kings and gods, and the destiny of the individual with each point discussed over 2-6 pages).
Quote from: The Good Assyrian;284718Exactly! The thief just seems too "urban" for this kind of primeval setting.
How about the bandit/livestock rustler/grain thief ?
I am working on a project where one section deals with Ancient civilizations. This not meant as a historical treatise but an attempt to make something useful for gamers.
QuoteThe Ancient Age
This time period corresponds to the Bronze Age of our own history running roughly from 3000 BC to 800 BC. This was an age where increasing sophistication in organization and technology caused important changes to human society.
The increase in agriculture production caused an expansion of population and allowed a surplus that supported specialized occupations. The unfortunate side effect of this is that extreme levels of social stratification appeared for the first time. To achieve the new levels of crop production society had to be organized. With foreman, managers, and leaders appointed to oversee the engineering and workforce.
The tribes beyond the frontiers of these early civilizations saw them as lands of milk and honey. With volumes of food far beyond what their own efforts could gather. Many early civilizations suffered periodic raids by the tribes requiring that a permanent military be established.
The early civilizations did not spring up full grown. They originated in the tribes that learned the rudiments of agriculture and settled down in one location. Agriculture alone did not cause the formation of the first civilizations. The first great civilization rose among the tribes who settled near the great rivers where there was arable lands to be found on the banks. The need to control the seasonal flooding and to expand their fields caused these tribes to learn the beginning of engineering. It was the requirements of engineering along with the increased agriculture that propelled the first great civilizations to glory or infamy.
With the expansion of population came the need to organize the people effectively to maintain the works and fields. The old shaman became a high priest blessing the crops and proclaiming the will of the tribe's god. The chief was anointed king by the high priest. The year's surplus was given to the king to protect and distribute. As the population grew so did the wealth possessed by the kings.
In most early civilizations the king's territory comprised little more than a city or town and the surrounding fields. The larger city-state would often have satellite villages. They were viewed as an extension of the city itself not separate entities. The economy was run as an extended household of the king. The king's took in the crop into his treasuries and then distributed back out to everybody who lived in the city-state. The surplus was used to feed artisans, the priests, and the military needed to protect the city-state.
The first empires were run similarly. Instead of households the formerly independent city-states now held allegiance to one king. The individual city-states were now run by governors instead of kings. However instead of sending the entire crops to one central location in the empire each city-state instead sent a tribute the forerunner of today's taxes.
While the above elements were found in nearly all of the early civilizations the details of each were very different from one another. The mix of local resources, and geography heavily influenced the cultures of these early civilizations.
The tribes outside of the frontiers of these early civilization responded in different ways. Some turned to raiding. These raids resulted in a number of different possibilities. Some were defeated due to the superior organization and population of these early civilizations. Some managed to significantly harmed the civilization causing it to decline as irrigation works and fields can no longer be maintained and were abandoned. Yet others conquered becoming the new kings and overseers of the city-states.
Other tribes turned to a pastoral existence. They lived a nomadic life of herding sheep, goats, and other domesticated animals. Throughout history there was considerable conflict between these pastoral tribes and the early civilization as the expanding frontier either blocked off or took away needed grazing ground.
Many tribes that led a settled existence of agriculture were assimilated into the neighboring civilization. Several learned from their neighbors and founded their own civilization in order to defend themselves.
The later centuries of this period was marked by increasing trade fueled by luxury goods and the need for the components of bronze. Tin and copper, the two components of bronze, are not found together and are often found geographically far apart. In our history one of main source of tin was the British Isles. The tin was mined in Britain and then shipped through a series of intermediaries until it reached the civilizations of the eastern Mediterranean. The diversity of luxury goods further fueled trade as each civilization traded for the luxury items of the other.
Quote from: estar;285072How about the bandit/livestock rustler/grain thief ?
There was also plenty of tomb and temple raiding going on, which is why the Egyptians eventually went through such elaborate efforts to keep their pharaoh's tombs from getting looted and why much of it failed, anyway and why the temples had walls and guards and so on. The Code of Hammurabi (http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/CODE.HTM) (later than the Akkadians) also has a specific anti-fencing law, for example, and talks about thieves or robbers. Some of the options will depend on how you deal with the supernatural. Raiding a tomb or temple is a very different proposition if deities, magic, and curses are demonstrably real and actively deter the thievery.
Ancient Kingdoms: Mesopotamia by Necromancer Games is very, very good.
Quote from: estar;285072How about the bandit/livestock rustler/grain thief ?
I am positive that there have been thieves as we think of them since the beginning of civilization, but my point is I don't see the thief as a "heroic archetype" being appropriate to my concept of a mythic Sumerian campaign. I would handle all those examples as a Fighting Man. But then again, that is the trade off in using Swords & Wizardry in the first place, I suppose (although I house rule a "Scoundrel" class in my own fantasy S&W campaign).
TGA
Yeah, I'd use Conan.
RPGPundit
I'd put it like this: If you want to run something more than just a run-of-the-mill dungeoneering campaign with stereotype characters with just some weird names for gods and places slapped on 'em, each Player Character should be a 'hero' as people understood them in those times.
That is, the hero can be a king, a king's buddy, nobleman, warrior, tribal chief or whatever.
They are never thieves, in the sense that they covertly take stuff from other people who belong to their own 'in-group' (that is, family, village, tribe, city, kingdom, or friendly strangers, 'guest-friends').
However...a hero can take, with force and possibly involving some guile, anything – women, cattle, treasure – from enemies and foreigners. To seize with force, to kill – it's cool, it's honorable, it's what heroes do.
(Of course, the victims might disagree, judging by ancient complaints about thieving Amorite nomads etc.)
The 'sneaky thief' did probably exist, but was considered vermin – and treated as such.
Same with tomb-robbers, if found out.
Of course, tomb-robbing did happen quite a lot, especially in Egypt where they had the smart idea of burying large amounts of valuables with the dead. Tomb-robbing has been referred to in some contexts as a kind of local 'cottage industry'. The point is: you don't boast having found things in some underground tomb or complex; it is an impious act and 'certainly to be punished by the Gods' (well, in theory, that is; in a Mythic Mesopotamian Campaign, I suppose you'll get bad dreams and have your limbs rot off your body...I have visions of entire villages of tomb-robbers with various nasty disfiguring diseases...). In Egypt, when caught, they would insert a sharpened piece of wood into the business end of your digestive tract (of course, any bigwigs involved, like a prominent high priest, might escape punishment. Plus ça change...)
There's a nice episode in the TV documentary series 'Ancient Egyptians' http://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Egyptians-Jeremy-Sisto/dp/B000244FGE/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1235505411&sr=1-3 (http://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Egyptians-Jeremy-Sisto/dp/B000244FGE/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1235505411&sr=1-3) that describes a case of tomb-robbing that was discovered, with a hapless tomb-robber meeting a 'sticky' end on a sharp piece of wood...
Quote from: Chariovalda;285554I'd put it like this: If you want to run something more than just a run-of-the-mill dungeoneering campaign with stereotype characters with just some weird names for gods and places slapped on 'em, each Player Character should be a 'hero' as people understood them in those times.
That is, the hero can be a king, a king's buddy, nobleman, warrior, tribal chief or whatever.
That's a great point. At one time, I wanted to run a heroic Bronze Age game (set in a Greece-like region of a fantasy world) using d6 as the base. To run the kind of game I wanted, I realized that the PCs would have to be nobility, sometimes leading armies, sometimes being manipulated by gods. I thought it looked fun, but that pitch was voted down.
Dumurra was aimed at the normal person level, just because it was fun to imagine life in those times (for me, at least, turned out not so much for the players). I think the kings/princes/high priests approach would have worked better.
Quote from: Chariovalda;285554I'd put it like this: If you want to run something more than just a run-of-the-mill dungeoneering campaign with stereotype characters with just some weird names for gods and places slapped on 'em, each Player Character should be a 'hero' as people understood them in those times.
While that's one way to approach it, keep in mind that our records from those periods are very sparse. Even then, we do have records that paint a far more mundane view of things. As some of those who have looked at Mycenaean Greece have put it, for example, in the Illiad and Odyssey you get the impression of kings spending all of their time doing cool things but when you dig through the tablet archives from Pylos, they look an awful lot like bureaucrats who spent a lot of their time keeping records and collecting taxes. The records of battles you'll find on the walls of Egyptian temples can differ from what the diplomatic exchanges suggest because they contain a fair amount of propaganda.
So the unasked question here is whether you want a realistic Bronze Age or a heroic Bronze Age or a mythical Bronze Age and to what degree. It's like saying you want to run a game set in the 1920s. Is that the real 1920s, a somewhat stylized and mystical 1920s, or pulp 1920s? There isn't just one way to approach the period and not everyone is going to prefer the same option. To be perfectly honest, the Glorantha-style "mythic" approach to the Bronze Age doesn't interest me at all.
Quote from: Chariovalda;285554That is, the hero can be a king, a king's buddy, nobleman, warrior, tribal chief or whatever.
I don't see any reason to limit the setting like that, any more than a game set in the 20th Century should limit characters to movie stars, musicians, politicians, athletes, and wealthy businessmen because that's what appears on the covers of magazines. Gangbusters, Call of Cthulhu, and Spirit of the Century are all games set in the 1920s and I think it would be silly to claim that only one of them is the right way to play in that period.
Sure, you
can approach any period from a heroic and mythic perspective and plenty of role-playing games do, but you don't have to and plenty of games don't.
Playing the crew of a ship like those found at Cape Gelidonya or Uluburun could be interesting in a Traveller sort of way. Playing the spies like those who infiltrated Jericho with the help of a prostitute for Joshua could be a lot of fun. Playing the guards for the merchants who travelled from Mesopotamia to Harappa by land or by sea could be interesting, the classic "caravan guard" adventure. And one doesn't necessarily need to be the "king's buddy" to be an agent of the king on a diplomatic or trading mission. In fact, Harry Turtledove's
Between the Rivers isn't about a Mesopotamian hero, but still has magical and mythical elements.
Quote from: Chariovalda;285554They are never thieves, in the sense that they covertly take stuff from other people who belong to their own 'in-group' (that is, family, village, tribe, city, kingdom, or friendly strangers, 'guest-friends').
And such characters are rarely really "heroes" in the same sense that most other figures are, either, in any other period or genre. In fact, many of the dark comic and pulp heroes are, more accurately, "antiheroes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fictional_anti-heroes)". There is no reason why one could not play an antihero in the Bronze Age.
Quote from: Chariovalda;285554However...a hero can take, with force and possibly involving some guile, anything – women, cattle, treasure – from enemies and foreigners. To seize with force, to kill – it's cool, it's honorable, it's what heroes do.
So you think a hero would never hide in a wooden horse and kill their tricked enemies in the night and murder their children when they are unprepared? Again, the question is how you want to play it. Could a game of Egyptian tomb raiders be a blast? Absolutely, even if the prevailing political culture of the time considered them vile scum. Could a game of Mesopotamian temple robbers be fun? Absolutely. You could even run games stealing liberally from Hercules, Xena, and the Scorpion King movies as inspiration.
Quote from: Chariovalda;285554(Of course, the victims might disagree, judging by ancient complaints about thieving Amorite nomads etc.)
Absolutely. The "heroes" of the Illiad and Odyssey were thieves, narcissists, rapists, and murderers who slaughtered the Trojans caught off guard by trickery. Heroes? How about Ramesses II, who was pretty much a hero in his own propaganda for not getting his butt kicked after being ambushed at Kadesh by the Hittites? If you want a more modern example, compare history's view of George Washington, who slipped across the Deleware River to ambush the Hessians on Christmas Eve when they weren't prepared?
Again, this goes back to what sort of reality do you want to depict in a game set in that period.
Quote from: Chariovalda;285554The 'sneaky thief' did probably exist, but was considered vermin – and treated as such.
Same with tomb-robbers, if found out.
Of course, tomb-robbing did happen quite a lot, especially in Egypt where they had the smart idea of burying large amounts of valuables with the dead. Tomb-robbing has been referred to in some contexts as a kind of local 'cottage industry'. The point is: you don't boast having found things in some underground tomb or complex; it is an impious act and 'certainly to be punished by the Gods' (well, in theory, that is; in a Mythic Mesopotamian Campaign, I suppose you'll get bad dreams and have your limbs rot off your body...I have visions of entire villages of tomb-robbers with various nasty disfiguring diseases...). In Egypt, when caught, they would insert a sharpened piece of wood into the business end of your digestive tract (of course, any bigwigs involved, like a prominent high priest, might escape punishment. Plus ça change...)
And how is this different from how things work in a typical D&D game? Do they normally give thieves -- uh -- rogues a pat on the back and a key to the city when they are caught picking the pocket of a wealthy merchant or raiding the palace of a king? In the movie Conan the Barbarian, do Rexor or Thulsa Doom invite Conan in for tea after he raided their temples?
Quote from: Chariovalda;285554There's a nice episode in the TV documentary series 'Ancient Egyptians' http://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Egyptians-Jeremy-Sisto/dp/B000244FGE/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1235505411&sr=1-3 (http://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Egyptians-Jeremy-Sisto/dp/B000244FGE/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1235505411&sr=1-3) that describes a case of tomb-robbing that was discovered, with a hapless tomb-robber meeting a 'sticky' end on a sharp piece of wood...
Bonnie and Clyde were notorious robbers who were gunned down in the end but that doesn't mean that nobody makes movies about them or wants to play characters like that. D&D games are known to end in total party kills, too. The most noble character in the Trojan War might be Hector and he not only dies and has his body desecrated by Achilles but Achilles' son Neoptolemus tosses Hector's son to his death. Moses leads his people out of Egypt and never gets to enter the Promise Land. There are plenty of bittersweet stories and tragedies going way back.
I guess my point here is that I think you are taking a very narrow view of how a Mesopotamian or Bronze Age game might be played when there are several ways to approach that place and period. In some ways, there's nothing wrong with playing a game in that period like episodes of Hercules and Xena or even the Scorpion King movies or Conan. No, it wouldn't be high art nor would it fit everyone's idea of the period, but I'm not sure it would be as far off as some people seem to think it would be. And even if all the players get out of it is replacing the Medieval trappings of traditional fantasy settings with the trappings of the Bronze Age, instead, that might be all they really want since I think few groups have the knowledge and skill to play characters even moderately authentic in any period of history or any country other than their own.
The most important question, of course, is whether you can get your players to accept chrs who dress like this:
(http://www.rozanehmagazine.com/NoveDec05/Pic15-WheelSumeria-new.jpg)
(http://www.dkimages.com/discover/previews/902/804189.JPG)
QuoteI don't see any reason to limit the setting like that, any more than a game set in the 20th Century
With period gaming you have to watch whether you are stretching plausibility. For some groups it will destroy suspension of disbelief while other could care less.
The overriding fact of the pre-industrial era was that you need a lot of people involved in food production to support a few people that weren't. That those involved in food production didn't have a lot time to develop skills beyond what they needed.
So if you were an adventurer then by definition you are part of the upper social stratum. You may have not been born there but at the start of your career that how you wound up.
Of course most D&D games like to have settings in a variant of "Merrie Olde England" rather than the mud fields of Harn. The same would go for an anicent period.
I once thought about doing it with Risus, but played straight. I think you could create a nice semi-mythical feel to the whole thing that way. You might have:
Gilgamesh
Mighty Warrior (4)
Seducer of Other Men's Wives (3)
Man's Man (2)
Dreamer of Dreams (1)
or
Samson
World's Strongest Man (4)
Berzerker (3)
Irresistibly Handsome (2)
Chosen By God (1)
Or whatever. Not the greatest examples but you get what I mean.
Quote from: John Morrow;285709So the unasked question here is whether you want a realistic Bronze Age or a heroic Bronze Age or a mythical Bronze Age and to what degree. It's like saying you want to run a game set in the 1920s. Is that the real 1920s, a somewhat stylized and mystical 1920s, or pulp 1920s? There isn't just one way to approach the period and not everyone is going to prefer the same option.
Of course the Heroic Approach IS one of several possible angles – but I think a very specific one and one more or less true to the spirit of that age's 'heroic literature'. And it's actually one that is not too difficult too play for most people.
Of course it isn't historical reality itself; at best it is a 'romanticised self-image' of a part (the male, dominant one) of those ancient societies. But: Reality sucks; in any setting based on 'actual reality', you have to chose what to use and what not to use. Better something that is at least partly native to that setting and believable, and which easily allows the players to be heroes. And yes, some of those ancient heroes look like homicidal maniacs to us, but it's up to the GM and players to temper that to a degree that makes it palatable, but without completely dissolving into sanitized, flavourless political correctness.
In theory, anything is possible. But what pitch will go down better: the heroic one or 'Scribe Adventures' or 'Row, row your boat gently down the Tigris stream' or 'Everything I wanted to know about the Life of a Sumerian Temple attendant, but was afraid to ask'?:D
Mind you, exceptions are possible; a high-ranking Egyptian official – a scribe, basically – could be a hero, leading armies or conducting embassies. There's the trusted, resourceful slave, or the merchant-adventurer / part-time pirate. But such exceptions are always harder to play convincingly, especially if you pick a setting whose historicity is more than just skin-deep. The character wants to play a scribe? Fine, but let him (or her) explain how or why, and what's the adventuring angle. If he can sell the idea, than he's the right person to play it. If not...It is, in the end, a matter of being able to play a character that is depicted in a way that the makes the other players 'suspend disbelief', and which positively contributes to the 'shared fantasy' and the adventures therein.
I've had several experiences – one as a player, and one as a co-GM – in a 'historical' setting (Cthulhu, as a matter of fact, using a 'homebrew' system and, admittedly, heavily on the roleplaying side) where we had a player who couldn't pull it off playing his character (one was a journalist, another a Roman Catholic priest) making them even slightly believable. The result was a great deal of irritation on the part of the GM's and the other players, and frustration on the players' part as they sensed the problem. It wasn't a problem with the persons themselves, as we were real-life friends, nor that they were bad roleplayers; it was just that they lacked the knowledge and the empathy to play anything outside the main generic fantasy clichés, and did not have the inclination to make an effort to change.
The Bronze Age heroic stereotype, at least, is sufficiently close to fantasy clichés, with some relatively easy-to-understand differences (he belongs or has worked his way up to the top level of society, and he is only bound to observe moral constraints towards the 'in-group' and 'certified friendly strangers' like guest-friends and allies). Even for people with only a modest knowledge of ancient history, it is, roleplaying-wise, a 'doable' type of character, while remaining still somewhat believable and true to the spirit of the age.
The sarcastic slave-steward, the wily merchant-pirate, the bitter former tomb-robbing priest of Anubis who hides the fact that his body is rotting away, they are not for everyone...
Of course, anything of this doesn't matter at all if you're going for the 'Everything goes' superficial approach, with the historical setting just as a thin layer of artificial flavouring (the Xena approach). Which is perfectly fine if that is what the players like and want.
Personally, I rather like Xena; it's just that it always went to hell in my mind when it tried to do something with actual history.:duh:
And just because I think it's a cool scene, and involves a trader:
http://www.age-of-bronze.com/aob/samples/aobiss27_1.pdf (http://www.age-of-bronze.com/aob/samples/aobiss27_1.pdf)
A nice way to begin any Bronze Age trader's story:cool: