TheRPGSite

Howdy,

As I'm getting on in life so I tend to prefer games that are rules light (or medium at max). I've been playing Vampire (Sabat) for many years and I've always liked the idea of a dice pool system.

Of course... I've always found WW's implementation to be a 'wonky' so we had to customize it for our group.

However, I'd be interested in your thoughts for games that implement a die pool system that works really well.

I quite like Ubiquity, Belly of the Beast and Mutant Year Zero.

Ta' very much.

Ubiquity is good, as is d6/Mini Six. I think one of the things I like about both is that they're easy to use with moderate dice pools but also outright recommend capping things at a certain level, which allows for tossing a handful of dice but not taking things to crazy levels.

I haven't had a chance to play it yet but Coriolis looks intriguing as well. It's a simple stat+skill system but it has some neat combat options that should keep things interesting.

I like AEG's Roll & Keep system. Surprised they didn't use it for more stuff beyond L5R and 7th Sea.

The OLD and NEW games from Russ Morrissey at EnWorld use a d6 "attribute plus skill plus mods" dice pool mechanic, with both Sci Fi and Fantasy rule sets available.

I am a satisfied Kickstarter backer.

Ta! for all the suggestions.

Quote from: Spinachcat;963400I like AEG's Roll & Keep system. Surprised they didn't use it for more stuff beyond L5R and 7th Sea.

Cheers for that. Actually, would you believe I've never played either of those two games? But I do like my bit of swashbuckling so I'll definitely check 7th Sea out. Is that the old or new version? Thanks!

Quote from: Brand55;963397Ubiquity is good, as is d6/Mini Six. I think one of the things I like about both is that they're easy to use with moderate dice pools but also outright recommend capping things at a certain level, which allows for tossing a handful of dice but not taking things to crazy levels.

I haven't had a chance to play it yet but Coriolis looks intriguing as well. It's a simple stat+skill system but it has some neat combat options that should keep things interesting.

I hear that! Moderate die rolls are always a good thing. Rolling 25 d10s in Vampire was a right pain in the ass. Coriolis would be one to have a gander at as well. I think it has similar mechanics to Mutant Year Zero but they'd have more options as you were saying.

Hah! I totally forgot about the the d6 system. Cheers for the reminder! I've not read that since Star Wars. I've not heard of the new Mini d6 so that's something I'd like a gander at too.

Ta'!

Quote from: AaronBrown99;963402The OLD and NEW games from Russ Morrissey at EnWorld use a d6 "attribute plus skill plus mods" dice pool mechanic, with both Sci Fi and Fantasy rule sets available.

I am a satisfied Kickstarter backer.

Nice one... I've seen it on Drivethru but never checked it out. Be good to have a set of rules for Fantasy as well as Sci Fi. Thanks!


One of my personal big bugbears with OSG in general are the concept of levels. I'm more of a WFRP guy than a D&D guy. But I liked the non-linear progression in Vampire. Although, combat and certain other mechnics were a tad broken imo.

The issue with dice pools and I mean issue in the term of what effect it produces, not that it's a problem, is that the more dice you roll, the flatter the bell curve becomes as success and failure keep sliding towards the middle.  At the same time, less dice make for more swingy results.

Can you tell me more about Belly of the Beast? I've heard good things but no zero about it and the write up on Drivethru seems vague to me.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;963543The issue with dice pools and I mean issue in the term of what effect it produces, not that it's a problem, is that the more dice you roll, the flatter the bell curve becomes as success and failure keep sliding towards the middle.  At the same time, less dice make for more swingy results.

That's true, things can get messy with lots of dice (with the probabilities). Plus it's a right pain to roll a load of 'em. I think that's one area where Vamp really fell down was the 'ones' canceling out success all the time - I found it hard to do anything even as a powerful Vamp. So we eviscerated that rule! :)

Quote from: Christopher Brady;963543The issue with dice pools and I mean issue in the term of what effect it produces, not that it's a problem, is that the more dice you roll, the flatter the bell curve becomes as success and failure keep sliding towards the middle.  At the same time, less dice make for more swingy results.

OLD and NEW limit the max dice pool for a given task. Starting characters will have a 5d6 max pool, while experienced characters can have up to 12d6. I often wondered why that rule was in there, maybe to limit the curve effect?

Quote from: Spinachcat;963400I like AEG's Roll & Keep system. Surprised they didn't use it for more stuff beyond L5R and 7th Sea.

Which version of L5R do you like the best?

Quote from: The Exploited.;963578That's true, things can get messy with lots of dice (with the probabilities). Plus it's a right pain to roll a load of 'em. I think that's one area where Vamp really fell down was the 'ones' canceling out success all the time - I found it hard to do anything even as a powerful Vamp. So we eviscerated that rule! :)

I think everyone did. You had to.

Quote from: Voros;963546Can you tell me more about Belly of the Beast? I've heard good things but no zero about it and the write up on Drivethru seems vague to me.

It's been a while since I read it tbh. I took a punt on it despite the lack of information about the actual product. For the life of me, I can never understand why publishers don't put out lots of decent info out about their products. But anyway.

So you've obviously read the skinny, that you're trapped in a gigantic beast where civilization attempts to carry on. Effectively it's a post-apocalyptic game with themes of survival, scavenging (obviously) and looming death. Resources are truly scarce because there's very little infrastructure or resources to build anything. You're a bit more like savages than in most PA games. It's somewhat assumed that you're just hanging on by a thread as opposed to actually having any real hope. So it's a  pretty dark and bleak setting (even more than most PA games). :)  

The world is really pretty cool though... The beast is so damn big it has it's own climate and myriad different environments (as well as its own anatomy of course!). It's also sucked up many different cities, lifeforms, etc. So you can encounter anything that you can conceive. That said, and this is one of the games foibles imo, that there is a lot of details left out or up to the GM to create them. For example, they refer to some very dangerous mutant plant life, but there's not stats.

The system is pretty simple (might be too simple for some). Pretty typical dice pool mechanic. Each task has a difficulty and you have to roll successes over the difficulty number. Besides your skill dice, you also get bonus dice called advantage dice. You might get one of these for a piece of kit, etc. You've also got instinct dice to spend to improve your rolls as well (or find out critical info). Kind of like your motivation/will, if I remember correctly.

You get to choose different maneuvers for some of these dice. You've also got different abilities/talents. But not like mutant powers or anything. More from where you were born or certain innate abilities. Some of the stuff is pretty broad.

The basic gameplay involves you (the party) going off on a scavenging hunt for resources to loot and then trade. There are always complications like cannibals or thieves waiting to take your haul. There's also visiting and negotiating with other enclaves.

However, anything is possible because of the sandbox nature of the game. And the beast could have swallowed anything so there's a lot to work with. Some of the descriptions in the main rulebook of the interior are great and very evocative of the setting.

But I'd really love to see a companion book to flesh out some of the details.

Great game for one-shots or mini-campaigns. For long term play, while it's definitely possible but the GM would have to do a bit of work to make the game less repetitive.

I like it a lot... But I've not had a chance to GM it yet, and I must read it again to refresh some of the details. So apologies for the scant details.

Quote from: CRKrueger;963588I think everyone did. You had to.

Yeah, that's true... Actually, that is one of the reasons that I've no interest in NWW's Vampire 5e. Most people who have been playing it for years have fixed up their rules so they are a little late to the party. Plus, if the rumors are true (from what I read on the Onyx forum), the new concept sounds really crud (imo).

There are no good examples of dice pool game mechanics, because they all include game mechanics that use dice pools.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;963641There are no good examples of dice pool game mechanics, because they all include game mechanics that use dice pools.

Meh...

Cortex Plus/Prime games. They "seem" more complicated than they are.

Quote from: DiscoSoup;963780Cortex Plus/Prime games. They "seem" more complicated than they are.

Cheers for that. I've not read much about the Cortex system, but the new Kickstarter looks interesting. :)

I generally despise dice pool games. There are some, however that are much worse than others; and some that are a lot less horrible than others. A few are even tolerable.  Heroes of Ogre Gate is pretty tolerable, to name one example I recently reviewed.

Quote from: DiscoSoup;963780Cortex Plus/Prime games. They "seem" more complicated than they are.

Quote from: The Exploited.;963781Cheers for that. I've not read much about the Cortex system, but the new Kickstarter looks interesting. :)

You have different traits. For each trait you may have one or more abilities represented as dice which you can add to your pool. A common one is Distinctions, which kind of works like Fate Aspects, though you're not really required to have a High Concept or Trouble or what have you, they are descriptive things of stuff you can do or stuff you know or who you are. You can almost always add a Distinction dice to your pool, using a d8 if it benefits you or a d4 if it works against you, though you get a plot point for deliberately rolling at a disadvantage. In some variants if you don't have an appropriate Distinction, you can still roll a d6.

In some games there are Affiliations (how well you play with others) in others Attributes mainly Physical, Mental and Social. Each one has a die ranging usually from d6 to d10. If you're using Affilations, you might get a die based on if you are working solo, with a buddy or on a team. Personally I replaced this with a variation of Fate Accelerated Approaches, which kind of work like Ability Scores, sort of.

There are also skills and Specialties. In Marvel Heroic, Specialties ranged from d8-d12. Firefly skills ranged from d6-d12 with an additional d6 if you had a specialized sub-skill.

Then there's Signature Items/Power Sets which I see as pretty much the same thing only Items are stuff and can be taken away or damaged. A Power Set is a broad term and can actually refer to super powers with specific abilities (usually up to 3) that are represented by dice. Or it could represent specialized weapons and equipment/gear which you use on a regular basis. Each dice in a Power Set/Item Set is called an Asset. You might also carry regular assets which would only have one dice.

As for how it works. Say you are going with Distinctions, Attributes, Skills and a Signature Item. You can add a die to your pool for each of those traits, so four dice. Say a d8, d10, d8 and d6. You roll those dice and then add two to get your Total. Normally, you would pick your highest two. However, in some variations you keep a third dice as your effect die. So say your d8 rolls a 6, your d10 a 7, your other d8 a 5 and your d6 a 3. It would make sense to add the 6 and 7, but you might choose to add the 6 and 5 so you can keep the d10 as an effect die. Effect dice aside, you roll the pool add two and compare it to an opposed roll or possibly a Difficulty Class.

The effect die is for stuff like Complications/Stress and/or Trauma. Stuff rated by a die type in lieu of using hit points. It's not a bad system. It does have a learning curve, but once you work it out it becomes really easy because there isn't a lot of rules. However, I'm not trying to sell you on the system so much as trying to explain things in a way which is hopefully understandable and which may or may not be inspiring. I love the system myself, and bar none is the best system for forum based Play by Post I have ever used. For face to face game, I'd probably use it for one shots since I can teach anyone to play in minutes, but I'd rather use something more D&Dish for a long term game.

Quote from: The Exploited.;963394However, I'd be interested in your thoughts for games that implement a die pool system that works really well.

Open D6 (West End Games classic system) works pretty well.

I may take some wounds from hurling spears, axes, and dice... but I think... dare I say it...  the best dice-pool system I've played in recent years has been FFG's Star Wars.

Low stat/skill values keep the curve at a really nice scale. Plus the addition of Advantage/Despair mechanics allow for a whole lot of mechanical options (both narrative and purely mechanical). It's probably the one system where Narrativist heathen GM's and Simulationists Nerdzerkers can really make out without worrying about crossing party-lines.

Would be very interesting to try in new settings outside of Star Wars. Would take a little bit of translation, but it could easily be done. The Force rules are shockingly good and could make pretty interesting spellcaster rules alone)

Quote from: The Exploited.;963462But I do like my bit of swashbuckling so I'll definitely check 7th Sea out. Is that the old or new version? Thanks!

I haven't played 7th Sea 2e.

1e was fun with creative mechanics, but has its issues. I have no idea if 2e cleared up the issues or just created more problems.

Quote from: CRKrueger;963587Which version of L5R do you like the best?

1e by a massive margin.

It's fast, deadly and detailed enough, but not the canon overkill that happened in later editions.

Quote from: RPGPundit;964198I generally despise dice pool games. There are some, however that are much worse than others; and some that are a lot less horrible than others. A few are even tolerable.  Heroes of Ogre Gate is pretty tolerable, to name one example I recently reviewed.

I generally like the 'idea' of Dice Pools as they give you a bit more to work with then a simple pass or fail. However, many are badly implemented. Got that review handy mate? Ta!

Quote from: Krimson;964208The effect die is for stuff like Complications/Stress and/or Trauma. Stuff rated by a die type in lieu of using hit points. It's not a bad system. It does have a learning curve, but once you work it out it becomes really easy because there isn't a lot of rules. However, I'm not trying to sell you on the system so much as trying to explain things in a way which is hopefully understandable and which may or may not be inspiring. I love the system myself, and bar none is the best system for forum based Play by Post I have ever used. For face to face game, I'd probably use it for one shots since I can teach anyone to play in minutes, but I'd rather use something more D&Dish for a long term game.

Thanks for the detailed answer! I like the sound of that... I'm quite happy to use simple (ish) mechanics for campaigns. I tend to stay away from D&D mainly because I'm not mad on the concepts of levels as they can get pretty out of hand if you're not careful. That said, I recently bought Beyond the Wall and I really like their common sense approach to OSG. :) Good game and an enjoyable read overall.

Quote from: tenbones;964229Open D6 (West End Games classic system) works pretty well.

I may take some wounds from hurling spears, axes, and dice... but I think... dare I say it...  the best dice-pool system I've played in recent years has been FFG's Star Wars.

Low stat/skill values keep the curve at a really nice scale. Plus the addition of Advantage/Despair mechanics allow for a whole lot of mechanical options (both narrative and purely mechanical). It's probably the one system where Narrativist heathen GM's and Simulationists Nerdzerkers can really make out without worrying about crossing party-lines.

Would be very interesting to try in new settings outside of Star Wars. Would take a little bit of translation, but it could easily be done. The Force rules are shockingly good and could make pretty interesting spellcaster rules alone)

I remember the old Star Wars game, it was a lot of fun. Easy to use if I remember correctly... But I never actually GM'd it so I was'nt as familliar with the rules. But I see D6 is free on drivethru I must grab it.

Thanks!

Quote from: The Exploited.;964282I generally like the 'idea' of Dice Pools as they give you a bit more to work with then a simple pass or fail. However, many are badly implemented. Got that review handy mate? Ta!

You can find it here (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?36767-RPGPundit-Reviews-The-Wandering-Heroes-of-Ogre-Gate).

For those that dislike pools (or even for those that like them), do you prefer to add up sums (Cortex Classic, D6 and, IIRC, L5R) or do you prefer counting hits/successes (WoD/Exalted, Shadowrun, and MYZ/Coriolis)? How do they feel different in play?

I'm looking right now at Coriolis the Third Horizon. I bought the pdf and then the hardcopy (cuz I like hardcopies when the books are pretty) last month, and I've spent most of my time on the setting chapters so far. Soon I'm going to give the mechanics of the game a more critical eye. I hope I like them, because I really like the setting.

The original dice pool system, Ghostbusters RPG, still holds a light to most of them because it's just so simple to play with. While it became the basis of WEGs Star Wars and other games, all these lost some of the elegance of the original by virtue of adding a bit more complexity.

I never found the WoD games too difficult to handle, but they needed to be interpreted by individual groups in order to play with (which is a way of saying that they are clunky!). I found Shadowrun too fiddly, but in fact this is more to do with the presentation of character traits than the actual mechanics.

Quote from: RPGPundit;964580You can find it here (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?36767-RPGPundit-Reviews-The-Wandering-Heroes-of-Ogre-Gate).

Thanks for that mate.

Quote from: The Exploited.;964619Thanks for that mate.

No problem. It is a very good model for a doing a dice-pool system with the minimum of crapulence, if you're dead-set on going with a dice pool.