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Good, evil, and fantasy cultures

Started by jhkim, September 17, 2021, 04:38:41 PM

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King Tyranno

Quote from: jhkim on September 17, 2021, 04:38:41 PM
So I've been considering running D&D in an exotic-ish setting (ref), but I think there's a broad issue about this.

In D&D and other games with an absolute good and evil, it's usually true that good and evil are defined by modern standards. So, for example, D&D has always defined slavery as evil - even though slavery of various sorts was considered normal and even good in medieval times. I think this is usually considered a feature rather than a bug. In some games, you play grim-dark bastards who leave a trail of horror and destruction -- but some fantasy games you want to be genuine heroes who fight for truth and justice. There is simple good and evil and the heroes are good.

The latter is more what I want my upcoming D&D game to be. Real history was often grim and horrible, but if I'm playing a good-vs-evil fantasy, that's not what I'm looking for. I'm going for more escapist high fantasy.

The problem is that modern morality can be a disconnect with a setting even remotely based on history.

So I guess this is about - when have you had a problem with difference between what is good by modern morality and good in a fantasy RPG? What were ways that you dealt with it? I'll think if I can come up with some more examples.

To me it's never been a huge deal. I inform my players about the setting. And they can take it from there. If they do anything against that setting I inform them that's incorrect in the context of the situation.

Bear in  mind, I've run games for groups of (allegedly) mature adults and also kids. I've gotten a pretty good idea of the kinds of players there can be and how to plan around more desruptive ones. I think a big GM tip that's never talked about is that no matter how much effort you put in a setting you as GM will always be the one most into it. Most players are just looking for a fun time in a "cool" setting. They don't care that you fleshed out all the religions and cultures. It's certainly nice to play something like Planescape or Dark Sun where morality can be defined differently in ways that cause interesting roleplay situations. There are certain kinds of players who appreciate that kind of thing. And some who just want to bonk the dragon on the head and steal it's treasure.

For an example I once ran a game in Nosgoth. The setting from the Legacy of Kain games. I set it during the rise of Kain's vampire empire that took over the whole continent, with humanity confined to a single city. Where they were fed on by vampires and lived a bleak existence. In such a setting Lawful characters would be perceived as naive. But I had one player who insisted on playing a lawful good paladin. Normally I'd just say the player couldn't do that. But I actually thought it'd be interesting to see a character who lived a moral and pious life in such a dark and desolate world. So I let it slide.

The player in question later gave up on the character because all he was interested in was minmaxing paladin abilities against vampires and being a "super cool vampire slayer.". And in a world where Vampires have won completely and utterly such a fantasy was unobtainable without great effort of which this player didn't want to do because he just wanted a simple power fantasy.

tldr: Your players most likely won't care. It's nice to flesh out morality but it's not important for the most part. They understand good and evil well enough and that's enough for them. Unless they're awkward SJWs. Who shouldn't be welcome at your table anyway.

dkabq

Quote from: jhkim on September 17, 2021, 04:38:41 PM

The problem is that modern morality can be a disconnect with a setting even remotely based on history.

So I guess this is about - when have you had a problem with difference between what is good by modern morality and good in a fantasy RPG? What were ways that you dealt with it? I'll think if I can come up with some more examples.

My way of dealing with it was to not deal with it. Specifically, I removed slavery in my Wilderlands campaign. My renaming of "Slave Market Plaza" to "Freedom Plaza" got a chuckle from my players. But as the Wilderlands is a mishmash of historical and literary tropes, dropping it has little-to-no impact.

On the other hand, if I was running a game set in Rome or the Aztec Empire, the players and I would have to accept that slavery is the cultural norm. The same would go for different treatment of the sexes, social inequity (the tension between the plebs and the patricians was part of Roman culture), torture, human sacrifice (big part of Aztec culture), etc. In this case, removing the elements you or your players find distasteful will quickly lead to you playing in a modern-day setting wearing the skin of a historical setting. Nothing wrong with that, but it is not playing in a historical setting.

Rob Necronomicon

#17
Quote from: jhkim on September 17, 2021, 04:38:41 PM
So I've been considering running D&D in an exotic-ish setting (ref), but I think there's a broad issue about this.

In D&D and other games with an absolute good and evil, it's usually true that good and evil are defined by modern standards. So, for example, D&D has always defined slavery as evil - even though slavery of various sorts was considered normal and even good in medieval times. I think this is usually considered a feature rather than a bug. In some games, you play grim-dark bastards who leave a trail of horror and destruction -- but some fantasy games you want to be genuine heroes who fight for truth and justice. There is simple good and evil and the heroes are good.

The latter is more what I want my upcoming D&D game to be. Real history was often grim and horrible, but if I'm playing a good-vs-evil fantasy, that's not what I'm looking for. I'm going for more escapist high fantasy.

The problem is that modern morality can be a disconnect with a setting even remotely based on history.

So I guess this is about - when have you had a problem with difference between what is good by modern morality and good in a fantasy RPG? What were ways that you dealt with it? I'll think if I can come up with some more examples.

Totally separate things really.
If you want all your players to be good high-fantasy heroes why not just let them know before the game starts? It's a fantasy game, so it doesn't need to follow our history's true and dire past.

I prefer grim dark stuff myself, where the heroes are part of the problem. Of course, it's only an elf game at the end of the day which the woke scolds can't seem to grapple with. Game morality does not equal true real world morality. If that was the case we'd be in deep shit.

But you can always sanitize your game and remove the bits that seem too nasty as well. I wouldn't do it myself tbh.

Greentongue

If you put yourself in the position of the person or group that wants to control the world, what would you do if there were no limits to what you would do?

How would you gather followers and weld them into a force you could trust to do your will?

How for would you go to build your strength and tear down the strength of everyone else?

What bargains would you make and which would you break to your advantage, or you opponents loss?

You don't need to think of "Good" or "Evil" your opponents will supply that label. You have a world to control, by Any Means Possible.

Greentongue

As for slavery, it is a cost effective method of obtaining labor if the resources to retain the captives remains cheap as well.
Just make sure there are others that benefit enough to assist.
"Good"? "Evil"? We have a world to conquer!

Omega

#20
There are some things that get called slavery that essentially arent. Depending of course.

Putting criminals to work during their incarceration comes to mind.

Then you have oddities like nobles and serfs/commoners who some will call slaves and some will not.

On the flip side there are things that do not get called slavery that either are, or are edging damn close. Some factories in the US and especially abroad fall into this pit. And I worked at one such hell hole for 5 years. Or in a way something worse than slavery.

In a fantasy setting though all bets are off and you can turn things in all sorts of ways.

You might have a group or entire race of slave that did so willingly in order to gain protection from other threats. The like where they are and do not want to be 'freed'.

Or people enslaved because otherwise they eventually run rampant due to some curse. For example the whole town or whatever is cursed with lycanthropy as long as they remain free. Or flip that around and have people cursed with lycanthropy to act as soldiers. The curse wont be lifted till they serve X number of years.

Or some situation where the slaves actually run everything and like it that way. Possibly to the point that they force people to be their masters. Or else.

And then you have servants which depending on the situation may seem like slaves or be actual slaves or be running the place pretty much.

Myriad ways to approach the subject.

In my own RPG there were multiple examples.
The former Sea Slaver Empire provided slaves to specific kingdoms where it was legal. And their systematic extermination by a major NPC prior to setting start destabalized alot of lands which are still recovering in various ways good or bad.
An island kingdom enslaved men because of a curse of infertility and this was the only way around. Though they were not short on volunteers.
Several kingdoms put captured soldiers during wars to work on either rebuilding damaged structures or other public works.
And at least one kingdom where the slaves run things. And another like in the example above in that the slaves prefer the safety that their masters afford them.

In a hopefully upcomming book there is a species that were not exactly slaves. They were organic constructs that eventually became self aware. Things were briefly messy as they did not want to be treated as property before a settlement was reached to their demands. Which turned out to be they wanted freedom of choice. The majority choose to stay on as servants because they are perfectly happy with that. The rest act as exploration vanguard or have filtered into outside societies. They do best under someone who can command and direct them. Or give them a defined direction or purpose. So they gravitate to people with a strong sense of leadership. They will also promptly disband from anyone who does not meet their requirements. Bemusingly they are more assertive in public service roles. Rescue, Police, and especially Medical roles. And acting. Especially stage plays.

A second species is recovering from the complete loss of their servant species that existed in a symbiotic relationship. Currently they hire anyone willing to assist. And they pay really well. Or sign on with groups that can see to their needs in return for their oft sought after services.

In one of the last comics I got from Steve Gallacci when I was working on an Albedo book the story revolves around a planet that is running a Labor Camp trap. Offer work and then keep the workers trapped and unable to leave with high prices on everything so they can never make enough to leave. This blows up in their face when the deception is exposed to every spacer in orbit who promptly threaten to cut off the planet from all trade unless this changes ASAP.

GeekyBugle

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on September 18, 2021, 02:51:56 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 18, 2021, 01:03:38 AMDue to language barriers (English not being my main one)

You write much better than some native English speakers I've read.

The same can't be said of me speaking english, I used to have a much better command of the spoken language but lack of practice...
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."

― George Orwell

DM_Curt

Quote from: Omega on September 18, 2021, 11:03:47 AM

You might have a group or entire race of slave that did so willingly in order to gain protection from other threats. The like where they are and do not want to be 'freed'.

Pretty much the backstory of the Oompa Loompas, IIRC.

Rob Necronomicon

Quote from: Shasarak on September 17, 2021, 06:56:07 PM
telling him to fuck off.

It's simple, but I like it...

Why suffer the insufferable? As I've been bleating out for years now, just play with the right people and you'll never have this problem. And should one of these man-childs infiltrate your game just revert to the above. Fuck off and play the tele tubbies rpg.


estar

I wrote this for my Majestic Fantasy RPG draft.

QuoteGood versus Evil
In the Majestic Fantasy Realms, people do good and evil acts. Even the worst villains have a human side where kindness and generosity is shown. However, there are acts so vile that their execution maims the soul. Redemption is possible, but it is a long and difficult process, not unlike a recovering from a grievous injury. Demons are what they are because they have performed vile acts so often that their souls are but a twisted remnant. As a consequence, the vast majority of demons can only view the world as something to dominate. That others are either slaves, threats, or too powerful to challenge at this time.

The Abyss is, in a sense, an insanity ward created by the gods to protect the rest of reality from its inmates. The gods designed it so that maimed souls are drawn inside. It is said that the Abyss also contains the possibility of hope. That in its deepest and darkest reaches there is a way out. The path is harrowing and passes through regions horrifying, even to demons. But those who have managed to redeem themselves can escape into what lies beyond.

Some say that the final barrier is pride. But acknowledging the decisions that led to the soul's imprisonment within the Abyss were wrong is not enough. The soul has to humble their self and acknowledge that those action were nothing in light of the evil that was committed. Many find they are unable to acknowledge that their lives were a waste.


palaeomerus

Emery

BoxCrayonTales

Quote from: estar on September 18, 2021, 12:34:36 PM
I wrote this for my Majestic Fantasy RPG draft.

QuoteGood versus Evil
In the Majestic Fantasy Realms, people do good and evil acts. Even the worst villains have a human side where kindness and generosity is shown. However, there are acts so vile that their execution maims the soul. Redemption is possible, but it is a long and difficult process, not unlike a recovering from a grievous injury. Demons are what they are because they have performed vile acts so often that their souls are but a twisted remnant. As a consequence, the vast majority of demons can only view the world as something to dominate. That others are either slaves, threats, or too powerful to challenge at this time.

The Abyss is, in a sense, an insanity ward created by the gods to protect the rest of reality from its inmates. The gods designed it so that maimed souls are drawn inside. It is said that the Abyss also contains the possibility of hope. That in its deepest and darkest reaches there is a way out. The path is harrowing and passes through regions horrifying, even to demons. But those who have managed to redeem themselves can escape into what lies beyond.

Some say that the final barrier is pride. But acknowledging the decisions that led to the soul's imprisonment within the Abyss were wrong is not enough. The soul has to humble their self and acknowledge that those action were nothing in light of the evil that was committed. Many find they are unable to acknowledge that their lives were a waste.
What's interesting is that some eastern religions came up with a similar explanation a few thousand years ago.

jhkim

As OP, I should follow up on what I think.

To my mind, the clearest is the difference in fantasy between sources like Lord of the Rings or Narnia, versus sources like Conan or Game of Thrones. In gaming, I see more historically-inspired settings like Harn or Tekumel where there is a distinct culture with values different than modern-day. On the other hand, most D&D is more like the former.

There's nothing wrong with either, but they're not very compatible, and some people may want more the feel of one or the other. It's not so much a problem as a dial that I try to be aware of.

Quote from: S'mon on September 17, 2021, 05:48:47 PM
I haven't run much realistic historical settings. I have run the very 1970s sword & sorcery Wilderlands, and slavery has been a bit of an issue, with PCs going all out to abolish slavery, a very marginal ideological position in the setting. I don't recall anything else being such a trigger - serfdom certainly is not!
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on September 17, 2021, 06:07:20 PM
For us, one that comes up quite a bit as something that gets only a nod is the whole noble/commoner thing.  Yeah, it's there.  It's in the backdrop.  Most of the people in the world deal with it.  Players in my game largely don't want to play in a game where there is effectively no social mobility along those lines.  So we tend not to, or assume that adventurers are one of the rare exceptions.  A game where adventurers have some social status and responsibilities to go with it?  They are all over that.  A game where adventurers are hobos, murder type or otherwise, trying to live below the social radar?  They want nothing to do with it.  Long as I get everyone on board on the issue, the rest of the world can be as dark or epic as we want on everything else, no one will even blink.  Though admittedly, there's only so far I'd want to push the dark part.  So not sure I know where the edge truly is.

Yeah, that's exactly the sort of thing that I was thinking of. I can enjoy grimdark -- but when I'm playing more escapist, light-hearted games, I'm not so interested in the dark side of history.

I can do some stuff by just shifting spotlight. In my vikings campaign, I could say that theoretically rape and atrocities were happening during the various raids and battles, but we weren't going to have them highlighted. Likewise, there were slaves taken on raids and around in the households, but again they weren't the focus. That approach only goes so far, though.

When I'm playing something like Middle Earth, I want the heroes to be more straightforwardly good - taking after the books. Yes, it's often anachronistic (as it is with many things like clocks and fireworks) - but it's within suspension of disbelief.

Trond

Quote from: dkabq on September 18, 2021, 07:30:24 AM
Quote from: jhkim on September 17, 2021, 04:38:41 PM

The problem is that modern morality can be a disconnect with a setting even remotely based on history.

So I guess this is about - when have you had a problem with difference between what is good by modern morality and good in a fantasy RPG? What were ways that you dealt with it? I'll think if I can come up with some more examples.

My way of dealing with it was to not deal with it. Specifically, I removed slavery in my Wilderlands campaign. My renaming of "Slave Market Plaza" to "Freedom Plaza" got a chuckle from my players. But as the Wilderlands is a mishmash of historical and literary tropes, dropping it has little-to-no impact.

On the other hand, if I was running a game set in Rome or the Aztec Empire, the players and I would have to accept that slavery is the cultural norm. The same would go for different treatment of the sexes, social inequity (the tension between the plebs and the patricians was part of Roman culture), torture, human sacrifice (big part of Aztec culture), etc. In this case, removing the elements you or your players find distasteful will quickly lead to you playing in a modern-day setting wearing the skin of a historical setting. Nothing wrong with that, but it is not playing in a historical setting.

Speaking of Aztecs, slavery, and human sacrifice. If we talk about what is "humane" and what is not, then I'd say that there is virtually nothing more depraved and further from humane behavior than human sacrifice. I find the Aztecs fascinating, but they score very high on my subjective "most brutal and inhumane culture ever"-list, together with Romans and Assyrians and a few others.

I once had a discussion with Cessna about this, and he was of the opinion that the sacrifices were exaggerated and that Aztecs were in many ways quite humane, they apparently had schools for all the kids etc. But the funny thing is, I think this is NOT how the Aztecs themselves wanted to be seen. Look at their art. They were brutal, and they wanted everyone to know it.

Lynn

You might consider if some institution that is currently condemned, like slavery, would evoke a response that is either exclusionary (ie, actively oppose it) or accommodating (ie there are good ways to handle slavery).

For example, if slavery is a fact of life in a society, there could be specific moral ways of dealing with slaves. If you look at old Japanese culture, the role of mercy comes to mind. If you lack mercy, then you cannot necessarily depend on mercy (or forgiveness) granted to you when you need it. The expectation then is that a heart felt apology _requires_ forgiveness unless there is evidence of intention.
Lynn Fredricks
Entrepreneurial Hat Collector