Quote from: nDervish;819032Ah, ok, good, you do agree that you reserve veto rights.  (I'd commented on that statement being such a reservation a couple times previously, but wasn't sure whether you agreed with that assessment or not.)

I presume, then, that you also agree that, by reserving veto rights, you are also maintaining "control over every. single. action. taken. by. the. players.", since you will veto any action you disagree with.

No I don't veto every action I disagree with.
I veto actions that go beyond the scope of that instance of action.
"You're trying to do too much in too short of a time"

Quote from: nDervish;819032I submit that arbitrary GM-applied modifiers, even if used capriciously or maliciously, represent a lower level of "control over every. single. action. taken. by. the. players." than the use of absolute veto powers, given that if I say "roll at -3 to jump on the table in the way you described", then there is still a chance that the character could succeed with a good enough roll, while if you say "no, you can't jump on the table in the way you described", then the character's action is automatically either negated or fails, with no chance of success.

You're comparing different elements thinking they are the same.

Question.
You have a guy, named Don, that you've been gaming with for years. DOn has two d20s that he uses.  He uses one for combat only(says it's his lucky die) the other is used for everything else.  He then decides for the next campaign he will be switching the roles of his dice.  When combat happens in this new campaign and his turn comes up he states what he will be doing and as he goes for his dice you say "Not with your lucky die" and he goes "oh yeah" and picks up the other die.

Does this in any way help everyone here who seems to be having a real. difficult. time. with what I had described before?

Quote from: nDervish;819032None.  For multiple reasons:

The players didn't lose verisimilitude they never had any.

Quote from: nDervish;8190321) If I try to jump onto a table in real life, I do not know what the modifier to do so is.  I know whether it seems "easy" or "difficult", but I do not know that I have a 37.46832% chance of success.  Verisimilitude, therefore, demands only that players know roughly how "easy" or "difficult" something seems, not necessarily that they know exact modifiers or chances of success.

I guess it depends on where you think you sit at on the RP and G spectrum.

Quote from: nDervish;8190322) If a player wants to know what the exact modifiers would be, he can ask and I've known very few, if any, GMs who would not tell the player the modifiers for all factors which the character is aware of.  In other words, the player can be privy to the exact modifiers if he cares enough to ask.  This is, IMO, no more arduous a requirement than if the player had to look up the modifiers in the rules or, worse, if he had to memorize all potential modifiers to know what they are.

Which relates back to;  what percentage of die rolls per session are having hidden modifiers?
For me going back and looking through my notes I realized there wasn't that many.  So why were the players having to play 20 questions to get the modifiers for or why do they have to ask?

Quote from: nDervish;8190323) I have not seen anyone here arguing in favor of "hidden" modifiers except in the specific case of modifiers resulting from factors which the character is not aware of either.  e.g., The character knows that the table's height, etc. would give him a -3 to jump onto it, so the player is told about that, but the character doesn't know that someone has cast a Slipperiness spell on the tabletop, so the player will need to "make a proficiency throw of 20+ each round or fall down." (Text quoted directly from the ACKS Player's Companion, p.141 - i.e., a codified rule, not a GM judgment call.)  Not being told about something you wouldn't know if you were actually in the situation does not harm verisimilitude; on the contrary, I would argue that verisimilitude is harmed if you are told about things you would not be aware of if the situation were real.

Is the Slipperiness spell invisible?
What I found was GMs having hidden modifiers that shouldn't be.

Quote from: Bren;819052I started out with the assumption that Sommerjon was one of those people who erroneously, but honestly think completeness is possible in an RPG.

Still see you are confused.

Quote from: Warthur;819058So what happens in your games when as GM you direct your attention to player 4 only to find that they've gone off and done a hundred different things (some of which completely rewrite your gameworld) whilst you were dealing with players 1-3?

I wouldn't give him my notes?

Quote from: Sommerjon;819364Still see you are confused.

Not at all.

Quote from: Sommerjon;819007your precious traditional gaming

Quote from: Sommerjon;819007your precious control over every. single. action. taken. by. the. players

Jesus Wept.

Quote from: Sommerjon;819364I guess it depends on where you think you sit at on the RP and G spectrum.

Where would you say you sit relative to the rest of us?

QuoteWhich relates back to;  what percentage of die rolls per session are having hidden modifiers?
For me going back and looking through my notes I realized there wasn't that many.  So why were the players having to play 20 questions to get the modifiers for or why do they have to ask?

They have to ask because you don't know ahead of time what they're going to attempt, so you can't provide them with an exhaustive list of all the modifiers relevant in a particular situation.

QuoteIs the Slipperiness spell invisible?
What I found was GMs having hidden modifiers that shouldn't be.

Let's assume that it is for the purpose of this conversation.

QuoteI wouldn't give him my notes?

Why should that stop them doing what they want to do?

Quote from: Warthur;819471Where would you say you sit relative to the rest of us?

Personally?
From the posts here, Closer to the RP side.
I do still play in games that are heavy into the Game side.

Quote from: Warthur;819471They have to ask because you don't know ahead of time what they're going to attempt, so you can't provide them with an exhaustive list of all the modifiers relevant in a particular situation.

Unless you are playing with complete strangers, predicting what your buddys  will do has never been hard, for me anyways.

Quote from: Warthur;819471Let's assume that it is for the purpose of this conversation.

They would "make a proficiency throw of 20+ each round or fall down."?

Quote from: Warthur;819471Why should that stop them doing what they want to do?

Time?
Player 4 couldn't have gone off and done a hundred different things (some of which completely rewrites the gameworld), going from player 1 to 2 to 3 doesn't give player 4 all of their time to go and muck things up it is all happening at the same time.