I can't fucking wait. This will drive the rpg sjw crowd nuts.
https://www.geeknative.com/134247/goblin-slayer-controversial-anime-to-get-a-tabletop-rpg/
This should be entertaining.
I like the manga so this will likely be a buy for me. The world of GS isn't really that fleshed out, so I'm wondering how much of the actual setting is in the game. I could see this being a case where a lot of the world-building is left up to the GM to figure out. If they do expand on the world, it'd be cool to see an actual map of the setting.
Also, this would be a must-have for GMs who struggle to come up with names for NPCs all the time.
YES YES YES!
YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!
I have wanted to play this TRPG FOR AGES! IT'S SO RARE FOR FOREIGN LANGUAGE RPGS TO GET TRANSLATIONS!
I'm still sore that the Polish language only Witcher RPG Wiedźmin: Gra Wyobraźni never got a translation. I love the R Talsorian RPG, but I would have loved to see it. There was a translation on project on 4chan, but it was abandoned part way through. it looked like a fun D6 system with elements of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay.
Quote from: Brand55 on August 20, 2021, 09:52:50 PM
Also, this would be a must-have for GMs who struggle to come up with names for NPCs all the time.
Lol, yeah everyone is named just like in Keep of the Borderlands.
I was just reading the first manga in Side Story 2: Dai Katana and it has some fun D&D campaign ideas in it-
- City built right next to megadungeon that is full of adventurers
- Temple has a bunch of mortally wounded adventurers in stasis that you can revive for a price. They couldn't afford to be raised from the dead so were preserved instead. It's like a store where you can buy npc hirelings.
- Priests available for identifying magic items.
- Gladiator arena where adventurers fight undead from the dungeon for cash
From what I remember - the whole setting is basically just a D&D setting which ran with the 'should you kill goblin babies?' idea, to think if they really are inherently evil. Goblin Slayer's setting just made them so horrible that the answer is "yes, yes you definitely should".
A mix of grimdark but with more hopefulness than something like Warhammer would have.
Oh boy. Someone make some popcorn, I'll go get the sodas. This is gonna be comedy gold, watching the SJWs freak out.
I have only watched a season of the animated version; I guess I do not get the controversy. The series literally played like a dungeons and dragons table top game, just with a DM willing to TPK 1st level characters, well, and I guess that can be considered controversial (not the killing, but the other stuff the DM felt necessary to happen to a female character) in the first episode I saw. But the killing babies I missed as being controversial at all, especially seeing how goblins come into the world.
Seems like it would be a great video game more than a TTRPG, though I know the anime features a lot of dice rolling offscreen 'gods' (ie players & GM). I'm not sure what having a dedicated ruleset adds that I can't do with D&D?
QuoteThe game engine needs 2d6, which are called Fate dice,...
But it's not 'Fate' fate, is it?
Also "Controversial anime..." sounds so 90's. That should be 'Problematic' anime :P
Cos I was interested in this when it was announced, I've done a bit of internet searching today. From what I can pick up (but I may be wrong) I'm reasonably certain that the basis of the game is popular Japanese rpg Sword World. It's been modified to match the Goblin Slayer universe (ie adventurers have 10 levels, porcelain -> platinum, 8 playable classes Warrior, Martial Artist, Ranger, Scout, Wizard, Priest, Dragon Priest And Spirit Messenger (4 Martial, 4 Spell Casters), Playable Races Human, High Elf, Half Elf, Dwarf, Lizard Folk, Rhea) and the Japanese version of Goblin Slayer TTRPG was released about the same time as Sword World 2.5 (which I assume the Goblin Slayer TTRPG is based upon). A Goblin Slayer Supplement (Japanese) was released in 2021.
This is a must have. I really enjoyed Goblin Slayer and need MOAR!
Quote from: oggsmash on August 21, 2021, 02:24:38 AM
I have only watched a season of the animated version; I guess I do not get the controversy.
The manga is quite a bit more graphic than the anime both in violence and rape. And where modern gamers seem to love cutesy goblins and even play goblin pc's in their games today, GS goes full on genocide mode on truly evil goblins.
Quote from: Hakdov on August 21, 2021, 09:10:13 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 21, 2021, 02:24:38 AM
I have only watched a season of the animated version; I guess I do not get the controversy.
The manga is quite a bit more graphic than the anime both in violence and rape. And where modern gamers seem to love cutesy goblins and even play goblin pc's in their games today, GS goes full on genocide mode on truly evil goblins.
I know. That is not controversial to me I guess, given the medium. I thought the graphic rape was over the top (as I get older, I find I dont care to see graphic violence or rapes, or even sexual encounters, simply suggesting it is enough for me to know what happened), but often in RPGs gms will suggest a "bad group" is doing all sorts of terrible stuff. So i felt the audience that would most care for Goblin Slayer (Manga, anime, or table top rpg fans/players) are not exactly going to be shocked by what goes on there.
I also think I have a pretty complete disconnect from modern gamers. At least in a sense of what they may be expecting an RPG session to be, as all the people I play with are Conan fans for instance, and though Howard never went into graphic details about sexual assault, he did suggest it a good bit, and wallowed in graphic violence. I guess my perspective (Conan fans, of say Howard's work and Savage Sword of Conan fans) are not going to find anything controversial about GS. I would have to be around these folks playing cute gobbers maybe to get a better read on that mind set.
It's already a banned topic at TBP.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on August 21, 2021, 10:29:52 AM
It's already a banned topic at TBP.
I find that hilarious. :D
I'm intrigued about this game. Ill definitely check it out.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on August 21, 2021, 10:29:52 AM
It's already a banned topic at TBP.
Took six whole entire minutes, too.
Quote from: S'mon on August 21, 2021, 03:49:37 AM
Seems like it would be a great video game more than a TTRPG, though I know the anime features a lot of dice rolling offscreen 'gods' (ie players & GM). I'm not sure what having a dedicated ruleset adds that I can't do with D&D?
I'm not sure it does. For anyone wanting to play in the GS world, it would be easy to homebrew something with D&D, Savage Worlds, d6, or a ton of other systems. This version just does the work for you, and I expect it will have compiled information on the setting so that will save a prospective GM a fair bit of work since that info is spread across dozens of manga chapters and light novels.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on August 21, 2021, 10:29:52 AM
It's already a banned topic at TBP.
If that crowd is the example of "modern gamers" I think I can much more clearly see the controversy now.
Quote from: Hakdov on August 20, 2021, 09:28:06 PM
I can't fucking wait. This will drive the rpg sjw crowd nuts.
https://www.geeknative.com/134247/goblin-slayer-controversial-anime-to-get-a-tabletop-rpg/
FATE dice? I'll pass.
Goblin slayer is trash. Just because it makes sjws jump doesn't mean it's good.
As a setting it has barely a unique bone in its body, so a rpg based purely off of shock factor is bleh.
Nice! We're supposed to be getting an English release of the Konosuba RPG later this year as well.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on August 21, 2021, 12:01:15 PM
Quote from: Hakdov on August 20, 2021, 09:28:06 PM
I can't fucking wait. This will drive the rpg sjw crowd nuts.
https://www.geeknative.com/134247/goblin-slayer-controversial-anime-to-get-a-tabletop-rpg/
FATE dice? I'll pass.
No, Fate dice, not FATE dice. It's not the same as the Western FATE RPG system.
Quote from: Cave Bear on August 21, 2021, 12:35:38 PM
Nice! We're supposed to be getting an English release of the Konosuba RPG later this year as well.
now I want an rpg for demon slayer kimetsu no yaiba
Quote from: Thornhammer on August 21, 2021, 11:01:23 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on August 21, 2021, 10:29:52 AM
It's already a banned topic at TBP.
Took six whole entire minutes, too.
such a bastion of free speech. They are scared to even talk about legit rpg's. I guess I'll have to go spread this on other boards now. :)
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on August 21, 2021, 12:25:54 PM
Goblin slayer is trash. Just because it makes sjws jump doesn't mean it's good.
As a setting it has barely a unique bone in its body, so a rpg based purely off of shock factor is bleh.
Honestly I enjoy it mainly because of the generic fantasy tropes. It's unabashedly based on D&D.
Never heard of it, but then I'm not really into comics ('cept for some old stuff).
That said, I couldn't give a fig if it's good or a pile 'o poo. I'm buying this instantly, so I can bath is SJW tears.
Quote from: Hakdov on August 21, 2021, 01:07:57 PMHonestly I enjoy it mainly because of the generic fantasy tropes. It's unabashedly based on D&D.
Then you have a very large dirth of options (in anime), almost all better than it.
Il start you off with dungeon meshi
Even the first sentence from the article in the link is great:
Quote from: www.geeknative.com on August 21, 2021, 01:31:46 PMGoblin Slayer is a controversial anime that begins with scenes of sexual violence, murder and violence.
They literally promise two doses of violence in every game session!
I am also buying this on pure general principle, because:
It is a 100% legit RPG based on a popular Anime. Not Myfarog not Rahowa, not HOL, or alpha-blue and similar games.
Yet they will still cry...
I will always support such beautiful things.
The system sounds vaguely like a version of sword world, which would be good to see an English translation of the system.
Quote from: Torque2100 on August 20, 2021, 10:01:48 PM
...
I'm still sore that the Polish language only Witcher RPG Wiedźmin: Gra Wyobraźni never got a translation. I love the R Talsorian RPG, but I would have loved to see it. There was a translation on project on 4chan, but it was abandoned part way through. it looked like a fun D6 system with elements of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay.
Got a link for the part-done English version?
It's a shame they couldn't put out an English translation rather than R.Talsorian coming in with their house system.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 21, 2021, 01:31:46 PMThat said, I couldn't give a fig if it's good or a pile 'o poo. I'm buying this instantly, so I can bath is SJW tears.
Thats a very sjw mindset. Spite consumerism is always dumb.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on August 21, 2021, 04:04:54 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 21, 2021, 01:31:46 PMThat said, I couldn't give a fig if it's good or a pile 'o poo. I'm buying this instantly, so I can bath is SJW tears.
Thats a very sjw mindset. Spite consumerism is always dumb.
Yeah, I agree here, especially with regard to this setting, it seemed to be extremely generic.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on August 21, 2021, 03:00:04 PM
Quote from: Hakdov on August 21, 2021, 01:07:57 PMHonestly I enjoy it mainly because of the generic fantasy tropes. It's unabashedly based on D&D.
Then you have a very large dirth of options (in anime), almost all better than it.
Il start you off with dungeon meshi
I read a couple of those but found it got boring fairly quickly. The whole eating everything shtick didn't keep my interest.
One small series of light novels (unfortunately never turned into manga) I did enjoy that are similar to GS but much tamer are The Adventures of Duan Surk
https://www.amazon.com/gp/bookseries/B00CKCUROA/ref=dp_st_159532870X
Here's what the Japanese version looks like-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUY7yWDDlvQ
Quote from: ponta1010 on August 21, 2021, 06:45:52 AM
Cos I was interested in this when it was announced, I've done a bit of internet searching today. From what I can pick up (but I may be wrong) I'm reasonably certain that the basis of the game is popular Japanese rpg Sword World. It's been modified to match the Goblin Slayer universe (ie adventurers have 10 levels, porcelain -> platinum, 8 playable classes Warrior, Martial Artist, Ranger, Scout, Wizard, Priest, Dragon Priest And Spirit Messenger (4 Martial, 4 Spell Casters), Playable Races Human, High Elf, Half Elf, Dwarf, Lizard Folk, Rhea) and the Japanese version of Goblin Slayer TTRPG was released about the same time as Sword World 2.5 (which I assume the Goblin Slayer TTRPG is based upon). A Goblin Slayer Supplement (Japanese) was released in 2021.
If it is based on Sword World then that is pretty bemusing as Stord World started out as a BX D&D campaign that was novelized then turned into the anime Record of Lodoss War. TSR denied permission to adapt Lodoss to D&D so eventually they developed their own RPG.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on August 21, 2021, 12:25:54 PM
Goblin slayer is trash. Just because it makes sjws jump doesn't mean it's good.
As a setting it has barely a unique bone in its body, so a rpg based purely off of shock factor is bleh.
I'd say its more in the same vein as Warhammer. One of those brutal settings where death is around every corner. Theres quite a few. Each with their own take on the concept. This one just plays up the violence factor in its own way. Theres others out there exponentially more violent.
Quote from: Omega on August 21, 2021, 05:40:52 PMI'd say its more in the same vein as Warhammer.
Warhammer has more style, and it plagarized from better sources. This is more akin to an isekai, except the protagonist isn't from a different dimension. But considering how faceless he is, he could as well be.
Quote from: Hakdov on August 21, 2021, 05:17:48 PMOne small series of light novels
.
Is it more isekai-like stuff? Dungeon meshi has the theme of food through the whole story, but the worldbuilding, ecology, and party dynamics Id say are second to none.
In terms of a 'logical' dungeon, Dungeon Meshi does it the best.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on August 21, 2021, 05:57:03 PM
Is it more isekai-like stuff? Dungeon meshi has the theme of food through the whole story, but the worldbuilding, ecology, and party dynamics Id say are second to none.
No, it wasn't isekai (which I generally dislike). It was like GS in that the world was very much like an rpg setting and adventuring was a profession with levels.
Quote from: oggsmash on August 21, 2021, 04:09:46 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on August 21, 2021, 04:04:54 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 21, 2021, 01:31:46 PMThat said, I couldn't give a fig if it's good or a pile 'o poo. I'm buying this instantly, so I can bath is SJW tears.
Thats a very sjw mindset. Spite consumerism is always dumb.
Yeah, I agree here, especially with regard to this setting, it seemed to be extremely generic.
If you want to see more games that do not bend the knee to the SJW narrative; then they need to be supported.
Granted, if money matters in your personal financial situation; then don't buy something you will never play.
It looks to be a Sword world derivative:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUY7yWDDlvQ
I've always wanted to dig into the fantasy game that beat D&D on its native soil - so now I'll get to see what the system is like. (I just like studying different systems...)
Also: The wailing, moaning and gnashing of teeth that the Goblin Slayer RPG exists.
So I get to hit two birds with one stone.
A win-win for me.
Quote from: Jaeger on August 21, 2021, 06:38:39 PM
If you want to see more games that do not bend the knee to the SJW narrative; then they need to be supported.
Granted, if money matters in your personal financial situation; then don't buy something you will never play.
I've always wanted to dig into the fantasy game that beat D&D on its native soil - so now I'll get to see what the system is like. (I just like studying different systems...)
Also: The wailing, moaning and gnashing of teeth that the Goblin Slayer RPG exists.
So I get to hit two birds with one stone.
Indeed... That's one of the reasons I buy games like these, in order to facilitate future production of indie or more 'controversial' material - not that I see this as particularly problematic after reading about it. I mean, who didn't see Legend of the Overfiend back int he day?? I also support plenty of indie devs who's stuff I might not like as much as other stuff. Same as I watch people's youtube channels.
And if people see me 'supporting' indie devs as 'spite consumerism' and shallow I'm completely alright with that. ;D
And as a bonus, I delight in schadenfreude of censorious SJW dweebs.
Im not for anti-sjw products. Im for GOOD products.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on August 21, 2021, 09:09:01 PM
Im not for anti-sjw products. Im for GOOD products.
Good for you!
So is this a bad product then?
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 21, 2021, 09:10:18 PMGood for you!
So is this a bad product then?
I think its source material is trash and largely dime a dozen among modern anime. Pissing off SJWs with rape is about its only noteworthy feature.
Almost all of fantasy anime uses extremely generic fantasy tropes (grounded in wizardry and dragon warrior).
Maybe its amazing and defies source material standards, but I doubt it.
This forum had a 14-page thread about a $3500-dollar kickstarter with <200 backers (http://"https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/fat-self-care-is-the-future-sjws-want-for-the-hobby/"), but do go on about how hysterical SJWs are. So much tee-heeing over how mad the libs are gonna be about some niche weeb shit. You guys creaming your jeans about wasting money on a game you'll never play are embarassing yourselves. I'll bet no one gives a shit about this game, any more than they do F.A.T.A.L., or the Project Veritas "expose" of Hasbro that no one remembered two days after it happened. Don't let me stop the circlejerk, though. You fellas carry on.
DP
Quote from: Tubesock Army on August 21, 2021, 09:46:32 PM
This forum had a 14-page thread about a $3500-dollar kickstarter with <200 backers (http://"https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/fat-self-care-is-the-future-sjws-want-for-the-hobby/"), but do go on about how hysterical SJWs are. So much tee-heeing over how mad the libs are gonna be about some niche weeb shit. You guys creaming your jeans about wasting money on a game you'll never play are embarassing yourselves. I'll bet no one gives a shit about this game, any more than they do F.A.T.A.L., or the Project Veritas "expose" of Hasbro that no one remembered two days after it happened. Don't let me stop the circlejerk, though. You fellas carry on.
That's great and all, but how do you know I (or we) won't play it?
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 21, 2021, 09:51:55 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on August 21, 2021, 09:46:32 PM
This forum had a 14-page thread about a $3500-dollar kickstarter with <200 backers (http://"https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/fat-self-care-is-the-future-sjws-want-for-the-hobby/"), but do go on about how hysterical SJWs are. So much tee-heeing over how mad the libs are gonna be about some niche weeb shit. You guys creaming your jeans about wasting money on a game you'll never play are embarassing yourselves. I'll bet no one gives a shit about this game, any more than they do F.A.T.A.L., or the Project Veritas "expose" of Hasbro that no one remembered two days after it happened. Don't let me stop the circlejerk, though. You fellas carry on.
That's great and all, but how do you know I (or we) won't play it?
Call it a hunch that some "edgy" anime game won't become the runaway tabletop hit of the year.
So, there are at least four (more if you count translations) things in the "Goblin Slayer" franchise, that I know of:
-A series of light novels that are, from what I've heard, decently written for a light novel, but tend to dwell on the rape and ultra-violence. Like a lot.
-Manga interpretations of the light novels (including a prequel series) from two different authors. The manga are, as far as I can tell, lower quality than the light novels but not crap. The manga collections include audio dramatizations of the light novels in some editions.
-An anime series and attending movie-length animated feature that cover the first bit of the light novels, but lighten things up a bit (but not enough to avoid horrifying particularly sensitive folks --especially at rpg.net). These are widely regarded as craptastic.
-The rpg, now translated into English. From the reviews I've seen around, it's based on a solid Japanese Fantasy role-playing system, and is mostly a well-done setting book for the light novels, using art from the manga.
I don't know if any of this helps.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on August 21, 2021, 10:09:48 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 21, 2021, 09:51:55 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on August 21, 2021, 09:46:32 PM
This forum had a 14-page thread about a $3500-dollar kickstarter with <200 backers (http://"https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/fat-self-care-is-the-future-sjws-want-for-the-hobby/"), but do go on about how hysterical SJWs are. So much tee-heeing over how mad the libs are gonna be about some niche weeb shit. You guys creaming your jeans about wasting money on a game you'll never play are embarassing yourselves. I'll bet no one gives a shit about this game, any more than they do F.A.T.A.L., or the Project Veritas "expose" of Hasbro that no one remembered two days after it happened. Don't let me stop the circlejerk, though. You fellas carry on.
That's great and all, but how do you know I (or we) won't play it?
Call it a hunch that some "edgy" anime game won't become the runaway tabletop hit of the year.
That still does'nt mean I (or we) won't play it though. And no one has said that it will be the next 'big hit' of the year. And no one expects it to be either...
But carry on.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on August 21, 2021, 09:46:32 PMYou guys creaming your jeans about wasting money on a game you'll never play are embarassing yourselves.
Yes, I very much agree with this sentiment. Consuming to 'Own da libs' is a really shitty mindset. It is very much akin to the people that back stupid shit like the myriad of SJW RPGs on kickstarter that do the same thing just politically different.
Foreign RPG systems are very interesting to me. Goblin Slayer I could take or leave, though I do appreciate a group of generic anime adventurers all being killed by a goblin with a sling because they were too stupid to wear helmets, and I'm curious if the RPG is as unforgiving as combat in the source material.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on August 21, 2021, 10:24:26 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on August 21, 2021, 09:46:32 PMYou guys creaming your jeans about wasting money on a game you'll never play are embarassing yourselves.
Yes, I very much agree with this sentiment. Consuming to 'Own da libs' is a really shitty mindset. It is very much akin to the people that back stupid shit like the myriad of SJW RPGs on kickstarter that do the same thing just politically different.
The difference here is that Goblin Slayer isn't a political product. It has no agenda to support or oppose. It's just a popular-ish story/comic/cartoon. Buying it won't send cash to an ideologue who propped up some garbage on kickstarter just to have some kind of message, it'll send cash to some Japanese guy who made his edgy D&D game into a book.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 21, 2021, 10:12:57 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on August 21, 2021, 10:09:48 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 21, 2021, 09:51:55 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on August 21, 2021, 09:46:32 PM
This forum had a 14-page thread about a $3500-dollar kickstarter with <200 backers (http://"https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/fat-self-care-is-the-future-sjws-want-for-the-hobby/"), but do go on about how hysterical SJWs are. So much tee-heeing over how mad the libs are gonna be about some niche weeb shit. You guys creaming your jeans about wasting money on a game you'll never play are embarassing yourselves. I'll bet no one gives a shit about this game, any more than they do F.A.T.A.L., or the Project Veritas "expose" of Hasbro that no one remembered two days after it happened. Don't let me stop the circlejerk, though. You fellas carry on.
That's great and all, but how do you know I (or we) won't play it?
Call it a hunch that some "edgy" anime game won't become the runaway tabletop hit of the year.
That still does'nt mean I (or we) won't play it though. And no one has said that it will be the next 'big hit' of the year. And no one expects it to be either...
But carry on.
I look forward to your session reports.
Quote from: Valatar on August 21, 2021, 10:31:15 PMThe difference here is that Goblin Slayer isn't a political product.
Im not talking about the product. Im talking about the reaction. Multiple people have stated they will support GARBAGE if it means 'Ownin da SJWs'. I think thats a stupid thing to do.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on August 21, 2021, 10:24:26 PM
same thing just politically different.
Not really, for me... In fact, politics has fek all to do with it as I'm an old school leftie. For some reason, you and them have turned RPGs into a political thing - Which I don't care about.
It's about 'their' forced authority over others, censorship, the insertion of overly politically correct material, and the sensitization of 'art'.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on August 21, 2021, 10:39:33 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 21, 2021, 10:12:57 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on August 21, 2021, 10:09:48 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 21, 2021, 09:51:55 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on August 21, 2021, 09:46:32 PM
This forum had a 14-page thread about a $3500-dollar kickstarter with <200 backers (http://"https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/fat-self-care-is-the-future-sjws-want-for-the-hobby/"), but do go on about how hysterical SJWs are. So much tee-heeing over how mad the libs are gonna be about some niche weeb shit. You guys creaming your jeans about wasting money on a game you'll never play are embarassing yourselves. I'll bet no one gives a shit about this game, any more than they do F.A.T.A.L., or the Project Veritas "expose" of Hasbro that no one remembered two days after it happened. Don't let me stop the circlejerk, though. You fellas carry on.
That's great and all, but how do you know I (or we) won't play it?
Call it a hunch that some "edgy" anime game won't become the runaway tabletop hit of the year.
That still does'nt mean I (or we) won't play it though. And no one has said that it will be the next 'big hit' of the year. And no one expects it to be either...
But carry on.
I look forward to your session reports.
Yeah, I have my quill and a notepad ready for you. It'll be riveting...
Quote from: ScytheSong on August 21, 2021, 10:10:12 PM
So, there are at least four (more if you count translations) things in the "Goblin Slayer" franchise, that I know of:
-A series of light novels that are, from what I've heard, decently written for a light novel, but tend to dwell on the rape and ultra-violence. Like a lot.
-Manga interpretations of the light novels (including a prequel series) from two different authors. The manga are, as far as I can tell, lower quality than the light novels but not crap. The manga collections include audio dramatizations of the light novels in some editions.
-An anime series and attending movie-length animated feature that cover the first bit of the light novels, but lighten things up a bit (but not enough to avoid horrifying particularly sensitive folks --especially at rpg.net). These are widely regarded as craptastic.
-The rpg, now translated into English. From the reviews I've seen around, it's based on a solid Japanese Fantasy role-playing system, and is mostly a well-done setting book for the light novels, using art from the manga.
I don't know if any of this helps.
Also, there are 3 spin off novel and manga lines- Year 1, Brand New Day, and Dai Katana.
Plus, the hilarious Goblin Slayer Abridged which is even better than the actual anime.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5i2qquegdB4
Quote from: Valatar on August 21, 2021, 10:26:19 PM
Foreign RPG systems are very interesting to me. Goblin Slayer I could take or leave, though I do appreciate a group of generic anime adventurers all being killed by a goblin with a sling because they were too stupid to wear helmets, and I'm curious if the RPG is as unforgiving as combat in the source material.
Sounds a little like Rolemaster in that regard. I recall several nasty crits that were greatly reduced if the victim was wearing a helmet.
This has come up on another site and it seems like the key points are also relevant here.
The first point-
I'm a fan of the Goblin Slayer anime. My initial reaction to the news of this RPG was that I'd probably never buy it and that I didn't see the need for it to exist. The setting is explicitly a generic D&D-style fantasy world where every trope and cliche is dialled up to 11- the idea is, this could be your D&D world. Or any generic fantasy CRPG with levels and classes.
The theme of the anime is that of a clash between the light-hearted heroic escapism of modern fantasy games and the brutal reality that going down into a dark cave for a desperate life or death struggle against inhuman monsters is a horror story not a romantic adventure.
And this is why I saw no need for the game. Because it's so explicitly a generic fantasy world you could run the episodes of the anime as adventures for any OSR retroclone and have a reasonable expectation that things would work out the same. Not 5e or Pathfinder because even at first level a TPK is harder to achieve in those and Goblin Slayer is all about OSR lethality and danger. But I assume that everyone reading this already owns their D&D-like ruleset of choice (Worlds Without Number for me) and it's not like even the most inexperienced GM would struggle to adapt the setting.
Which brings us to the second point-
The reason that anyone would want to buy Goblin Slayer is the rules. (Explaining this in full is going require a bit of a history lesson that a lot of the grognards here might be familiar with already, so apologies if you lnow this already.)
When the D&D craze was first hitting its peak way back when, Japan was obviously a target. But there was a big problem- no access to all the funny dice that D&D requires. Japan had no miniature wargames scene like the English-speaking world did and so no matter how hard it was to get hold of polyhedral dice for gamers who didn't live near a specialty store, in Japan it was harder to the point of impossibility. But a lot of Japanese still wanted to play this new game that was the latest worldwide fad.
Enter a game called Sword World. This was written by Japanese gamers explicitly to use nothing but the standard and easily available d6. It was also published by a company that printed collected volumes of Manga, in the same size as those and with Manga-style illustrations. It was also distributed to the same stores as the Mangas they were already publishing. Anyone with even the vaguest knowledge of how RPGs work as a business won't be surprised to learn that this was very successful to the point that Sword World occupies the same dominant role in Japanese TTRPGs that D&D does in the west.
That whole anime genre where you get anime-fied versions of D&D? That started with Sword World. Record of the Lodoss War was in fact set in the official setting of the Sword World RPG and others (Rune Soldier Louie) have been inspired by campaigns of SW that the writers played in.
So I've been very curious about what the Sword World game is like since first hearing about it in the 90s. Unfortunately there's never been an English translation of the rules. Until now, because Goblin Slayer is a licensed adaption of the Sword World system in the same way that you got all of those settings slapped onto the D&D 3.5e rules in the 00s. They've apparently done this with sufficiently popular anime/manga in the past, it's just that Goblin Slayer is the first one someone has looked to do an English translation for.
TL;DR is that nobody- not even fans of the anime like myself- needs to buy a Goblin Slayer RPG for the setting. There are, however, some people who aren't necessarily fans of the anime at all who might be interested in finally seeing what the Sword World rules actually look like.
Quote from: Tantavalist on August 22, 2021, 07:25:24 AM
This has come up on another site and it seems like the key points are also relevant here.
The first point-
I'm a fan of the Goblin Slayer anime. My initial reaction to the news of this RPG was that I'd probably never buy it and that I didn't see the need for it to exist. The setting is explicitly a generic D&D-style fantasy world where every trope and cliche is dialled up to 11- the idea is, this could be your D&D world. Or any generic fantasy CRPG with levels and classes.
The theme of the anime is that of a clash between the light-hearted heroic escapism of modern fantasy games and the brutal reality that going down into a dark cave for a desperate life or death struggle against inhuman monsters is a horror story not a romantic adventure.
And this is why I saw no need for the game. Because it's so explicitly a generic fantasy world you could run the episodes of the anime as adventures for any OSR retroclone and have a reasonable expectation that things would work out the same. Not 5e or Pathfinder because even at first level a TPK is harder to achieve in those and Goblin Slayer is all about OSR lethality and danger. But I assume that everyone reading this already owns their D&D-like ruleset of choice (Worlds Without Number for me) and it's not like even the most inexperienced GM would struggle to adapt the setting.
Which brings us to the second point-
The reason that anyone would want to buy Goblin Slayer is the rules. (Explaining this in full is going require a bit of a history lesson that a lot of the grognards here might be familiar with already, so apologies if you lnow this already.)
When the D&D craze was first hitting its peak way back when, Japan was obviously a target. But there was a big problem- no access to all the funny dice that D&D requires. Japan had no miniature wargames scene like the English-speaking world did and so no matter how hard it was to get hold of polyhedral dice for gamers who didn't live near a specialty store, in Japan it was harder to the point of impossibility. But a lot of Japanese still wanted to play this new game that was the latest worldwide fad.
Enter a game called Sword World. This was written by Japanese gamers explicitly to use nothing but the standard and easily available d6. It was also published by a company that printed collected volumes of Manga, in the same size as those and with Manga-style illustrations. It was also distributed to the same stores as the Mangas they were already publishing. Anyone with even the vaguest knowledge of how RPGs work as a business won't be surprised to learn that this was very successful to the point that Sword World occupies the same dominant role in Japanese TTRPGs that D&D does in the west.
That whole anime genre where you get anime-fied versions of D&D? That started with Sword World. Record of the Lodoss War was in fact set in the official setting of the Sword World RPG and others (Rune Soldier Louie) have been inspired by campaigns of SW that the writers played in.
So I've been very curious about what the Sword World game is like since first hearing about it in the 90s. Unfortunately there's never been an English translation of the rules. Until now, because Goblin Slayer is a licensed adaption of the Sword World system in the same way that you got all of those settings slapped onto the D&D 3.5e rules in the 00s. They've apparently done this with sufficiently popular anime/manga in the past, it's just that Goblin Slayer is the first one someone has looked to do an English translation for.
TL;DR is that nobody- not even fans of the anime like myself- needs to buy a Goblin Slayer RPG for the setting. There are, however, some people who aren't necessarily fans of the anime at all who might be interested in finally seeing what the Sword World rules actually look like.
I fit in the category of wanting to try the sword world ruleset. Ive long been intrigued by it but never really had the chance to. I have a few friends who love the anime to id be willing to GM it. I myself am indifferent to the setting but imo its worth it to get an official trabslation if Sword World rules.
Quote from: Tantavalist on August 22, 2021, 07:25:24 AMTL;DR is that nobody- not even fans of the anime like myself- needs to buy a Goblin Slayer RPG for the setting. There are, however, some people who aren't necessarily fans of the anime at all who might be interested in finally seeing what the Sword World rules actually look like.
As an enthusiast for international systems, this actually changes my perspective around. I may actually support this for the context.
Quote from: Slambo on August 22, 2021, 08:46:00 AM
I fit in the category of wanting to try the sword world ruleset. Ive long been intrigued by it but never really had the chance to. I have a few friends who love the anime to id be willing to GM it. I myself am indifferent to the setting but imo its worth it to get an official trabslation if Sword World rules.
I too am intereted in getting an official translation of a
version of the Sword World rules.
Someone got close to translating SW2.0,
but never finished?. Just after I wrote this I wondered just how far they got. Apparently due to Covid further than I thought. The wiki http://swordworld.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Main_Page (http://swordworld.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Main_Page) may contain a complete translation for those interested.
Given the page numbers listed, I can't see that Goblin Slayer will be a full translation of the 3 Sword World books, but the Goblin Slayer rpg that has adapted Sword World to its setting. I know I'm sort of nitpicking, but Goblin Slayer seems to have 10 levels of advancement matching 'rankings' of adventurers. Sword World 2.0 only had 6 if I'm correct, and I have no knowledge about 2.5
Quote from: Tantavalist on August 22, 2021, 07:25:24 AM
This has come up on another site and it seems like the key points are also relevant here.
The first point-
I'm a fan of the Goblin Slayer anime. My initial reaction to the news of this RPG was that I'd probably never buy it and that I didn't see the need for it to exist. The setting is explicitly a generic D&D-style fantasy world where every trope and cliche is dialled up to 11- the idea is, this could be your D&D world. Or any generic fantasy CRPG with levels and classes.
The theme of the anime is that of a clash between the light-hearted heroic escapism of modern fantasy games and the brutal reality that going down into a dark cave for a desperate life or death struggle against inhuman monsters is a horror story not a romantic adventure.
And this is why I saw no need for the game. Because it's so explicitly a generic fantasy world you could run the episodes of the anime as adventures for any OSR retroclone and have a reasonable expectation that things would work out the same. Not 5e or Pathfinder because even at first level a TPK is harder to achieve in those and Goblin Slayer is all about OSR lethality and danger. But I assume that everyone reading this already owns their D&D-like ruleset of choice (Worlds Without Number for me) and it's not like even the most inexperienced GM would struggle to adapt the setting.
Which brings us to the second point-
The reason that anyone would want to buy Goblin Slayer is the rules. (Explaining this in full is going require a bit of a history lesson that a lot of the grognards here might be familiar with already, so apologies if you lnow this already.)
When the D&D craze was first hitting its peak way back when, Japan was obviously a target. But there was a big problem- no access to all the funny dice that D&D requires. Japan had no miniature wargames scene like the English-speaking world did and so no matter how hard it was to get hold of polyhedral dice for gamers who didn't live near a specialty store, in Japan it was harder to the point of impossibility. But a lot of Japanese still wanted to play this new game that was the latest worldwide fad.
Enter a game called Sword World. This was written by Japanese gamers explicitly to use nothing but the standard and easily available d6. It was also published by a company that printed collected volumes of Manga, in the same size as those and with Manga-style illustrations. It was also distributed to the same stores as the Mangas they were already publishing. Anyone with even the vaguest knowledge of how RPGs work as a business won't be surprised to learn that this was very successful to the point that Sword World occupies the same dominant role in Japanese TTRPGs that D&D does in the west.
That whole anime genre where you get anime-fied versions of D&D? That started with Sword World. Record of the Lodoss War was in fact set in the official setting of the Sword World RPG and others (Rune Soldier Louie) have been inspired by campaigns of SW that the writers played in.
So I've been very curious about what the Sword World game is like since first hearing about it in the 90s. Unfortunately there's never been an English translation of the rules. Until now, because Goblin Slayer is a licensed adaption of the Sword World system in the same way that you got all of those settings slapped onto the D&D 3.5e rules in the 00s. They've apparently done this with sufficiently popular anime/manga in the past, it's just that Goblin Slayer is the first one someone has looked to do an English translation for.
TL;DR is that nobody- not even fans of the anime like myself- needs to buy a Goblin Slayer RPG for the setting. There are, however, some people who aren't necessarily fans of the anime at all who might be interested in finally seeing what the Sword World rules actually look like.
Interesting stuff, thanks.
Hm, might be worth considering, as much for the rules as for the JRPG-feel setting. I always have a 'no raping the PCs' rule IMCs, not sure how that would work with Goblin Slayer though - maybe just fade to black if the bad stuff happens.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on August 21, 2021, 05:57:03 PM
Quote from: Omega on August 21, 2021, 05:40:52 PMI'd say its more in the same vein as Warhammer.
Warhammer has more style, and it plagarized from better sources. This is more akin to an isekai, except the protagonist isn't from a different dimension. But considering how faceless he is, he could as well be.
Quote from: Hakdov on August 21, 2021, 05:17:48 PMOne small series of light novels
.
Is it more isekai-like stuff? Dungeon meshi has the theme of food through the whole story, but the worldbuilding, ecology, and party dynamics Id say are second to none.
In terms of a 'logical' dungeon, Dungeon Meshi does it the best.
1: The main character is pretty much what you get when you have a higher level character dealing with a lower level dungeon as it were. They are going to pretty much pulverize alot of starter monsters. Which goblins tend to be.
2: Dungeon Meshi has a suprisingly well thought out background with everything more or less interlocking fairly well with the economy and ecology of dungeons. And it gets that all across in a fairly simple manner too without alot of needless complexity.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on August 21, 2021, 10:42:38 PM
Quote from: Valatar on August 21, 2021, 10:31:15 PMThe difference here is that Goblin Slayer isn't a political product.
Im not talking about the product. Im talking about the reaction. Multiple people have stated they will support GARBAGE if it means 'Ownin da SJWs'. I think thats a stupid thing to do.
Agreed. Is it a good RPG? Or like alot of older anime based RPGs of the 80s and 90s, a good sourcebook. Macross, Votoms, Dominion, and some others all made for interesting little sourcebooks AND were good RPGs too.
No matter how much you do or don't like the story, there is barely anything there to interact with that makes it worth making a full game. You get a couple of nation names, a landmark or two, and some bog standard fantasy tropes that you can find in anything else ever. The big draw is the edgy goblin menace, sort of a Tucker's Kobold thing with extra edgelord.
And this coming from somebody who enjoys the damn thing! Rapey stuff aside, the idea of an adventurer culture that doesn't take goblins seriously and almost gets wiped out by a green horde is worth a look. But... this can happen in any setting. It is an adventure hook, not a full game. Nothing else there is particularly interesting.
Sort of like the Princess Bride RPG, I guess. I love the movie, sure, but two country names and a fire swamp does not a game setting make.
The only thing I understand that makes this at all special is that Sword World is attached to it. If you like or want Sword World, I hope that it has enough of the rules to satisfy your curiosity!
The setting then is nearly the same as BX's Karameikos setting. You get a map, some place names and a sentence or two on some kingdoms. X expanded on this with... a tiny paragraph on a few kingdoms. heh.
But it feels like someones going to have to do alot of creation from whole cloth to flesh out Goblin Slayer.
I'm playing just japanese TTRPGs the whole time.
In japanese TTRPG you mostly do one shots or very short campaigns, and the focus is about recreating the reference tone, there's not much simulative space for players (there will be way more "immersion"). One should forget about D&D long lasting freeform campaigns. The rules of SRS engine aren't even so good for levelling up consistently.
Quote from: Manic Modron on August 23, 2021, 01:24:45 PM
No matter how much you do or don't like the story, there is barely anything there to interact with that makes it worth making a full game. You get a couple of nation names, a landmark or two, and some bog standard fantasy tropes that you can find in anything else ever. The big draw is the edgy goblin menace, sort of a Tucker's Kobold thing with extra edgelord.
And this coming from somebody who enjoys the damn thing! Rapey stuff aside, the idea of an adventurer culture that doesn't take goblins seriously and almost gets wiped out by a green horde is worth a look. But... this can happen in any setting. It is an adventure hook, not a full game. Nothing else there is particularly interesting.
Sort of like the Princess Bride RPG, I guess. I love the movie, sure, but two country names and a fire swamp does not a game setting make.
The only thing I understand that makes this at all special is that Sword World is attached to it. If you like or want Sword World, I hope that it has enough of the rules to satisfy your curiosity!
To me it stands out as a black comedy setting - light heroic JRPG tropes meets simulationist horror, with a bit of fan service. As a 'straight' setting I agree there's not much there. As a setting where eg the low level PCs get eaten or worse while the high level PCs ignore the world-shaking threat to focus on farming goblins, it seems great for a short campaign.
Quote from: S'mon on August 24, 2021, 08:48:12 AM
As a setting where eg the low level PCs get eaten or worse while the high level PCs ignore the world-shaking threat to focus on farming goblins, it seems great for a short campaign.
My point before was that you don't need a sourcebook for that. I mean, my experience with Old School D&D and similar systems is that this is what happens in those games anyway. Or has your experience with these shown different? ;)
Quote from: Tantavalist on August 24, 2021, 09:07:44 AM
My point before was that you don't need a sourcebook for that. I mean, my experience with Old School D&D and similar systems is that this is what happens in those games anyway. Or has your experience with these shown different? ;)
;D ;D ;D
No, running open world OSR (or 5e) obviously neither is uncommon, and my Faerun Adventures 1359 DR campaign already does a few things reminiscent of Goblin Slayer (though afaicr I've not had rape goblins in a campaign since ca 1996). In particular the lowbie PCs fighting goblins, skeletons & orcs while offstage Gareth Dragonsbane & the Tiamat-killing Heroes of Bloodstone save the world for the umpteenth time.
I think for an explicitly comedy game, having a dedicated ruleset (with art) might work well. But yes I can imagine taking a day with eg Swords & Wizardry or OSRIC and doing a decent GS adaptation.
Quote from: Tantavalist on August 22, 2021, 07:25:24 AM
TL;DR is that nobody- not even fans of the anime like myself- needs to buy a Goblin Slayer RPG for the setting. There are, however, some people who aren't necessarily fans of the anime at all who might be interested in finally seeing what the Sword World rules actually look like.
This right here is another reason I am hugely anticipating this release, and I hope it leads to YenPress getting the rights to officially translate more Sword World material into English.
There are so many things about DnD that annoy me: Vancian Casting, Baked in cosmological assumptions, Clerics as spellcasters ETC. As a result of that, and getting into RPGs during the OGL era has really given me a soft spot for Fantasy Heartbreakers.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on August 21, 2021, 04:04:54 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 21, 2021, 01:31:46 PMThat said, I couldn't give a fig if it's good or a pile 'o poo. I'm buying this instantly, so I can bath is SJW tears.
Thats a very sjw mindset. Spite consumerism is always dumb.
Eeh, I would like to support people who don't cave to the SJWs.
FATAL called, it wants its edginess back.
After watching the anime series, most of it seems to hinge on two things: evil goblins and a protagonist who keeps his full-face helmet on at all times.
The monsters are right bastards and use hapless adventurers as playthings and food. This I like, as I'm tired of some major trends in the RPG industry turning monster cultures into nothing more than a sack of HP to bop out of existence: the monsters in Goblinslayer seem to be downright evil, with no argument as to their motives being anything but abhorrent. While people may not like this aspect, it makes sense for evil creatures. It also makes sense why the protagonist also is a 'Goblin slayer'. I'm sure people can guess the rest of the reasons at this point.
The only thing controversial about this is the monsters act like the evil creatures they are. Suck it up people. No one has to play-act the scenes, and a fade to black can easily solve this issue at a table. Even something like 'They now have captured your character, who is now lost forever' would work for tables who seem to suffer from that paradoxical idea of killing ok, other things not. No one is being forced to participate in roleplaying everything, so I don't get why other forums auto-banned it, as the very concept of monsters being evil must be too hard to deal with. Whatever...
The helmet thing seems to be a running joke for our typical few words protagonist. I'm guessing the helmet thing may be so viewers can picture themselves in the role of the main character more easily: actually a pretty clever idea turned into a decent plot hook in the series.
All hinges around a classic tavern city idea, hired adventurers for bulletin adventure board jobs to clear out dungeons, etc. with an overarching main event with demons that I'm sure will become more apparent as I think they got a green light for Season 2. I like this sort of classic RPG trope of microcosm player involved and macrocosm events out of their scope, so while repetitive dungeon crawling, still fun to watch.
Look forward to trying out the system mechanics and getting my character to silver status (another clever idea with the dog tags idea).
We should support initiatives like this from other countries as it seems so rare it happens. It might lead to others seeing success and deciding to do it too and we all benefit from seeing other perspectives on the RPG scene. It worked well for countries like Germany, so why not Japan?
Quote from: rocksfalleverybodydies on August 27, 2021, 11:38:34 AM
After watching the anime series, most of it seems to hinge on two things: evil goblins and a protagonist who keeps his full-face helmet on at all times.
The monsters are right bastards and use hapless adventurers as playthings and food.
We should support initiatives like this from other countries as it seems so rare it happens.
Pretty much sums it up for me. Although, I've not seen the anime yet. But I like the sound of monsters being 'evil', just as it should be. Trying to explain why 'not all monsters are evil' for the sake of someone's feefees is pathetic. They can fuck off. Orcs and Goblins are freakin' evil, get over you bunch of sjw dweebs.
And I'm also happy to support non-mainstream work and its creators.
A lot of the most controversial stuff happened in the first episode/story/chapter/whatever it was before anime.
I think this was probably a deliberate move. So many people have "Subverted the Trope" of the Evil Races by making them sympathetic that by this point it's becoming more like the standard option. Inevitably the first thing that would come up if the idea of something like Goblin Slayer came out was someone asking "But who is really the villain here?" and questioning if evil was just down to point of view.
I've heard of a lot of reactions to the first episode of Goblin Slayer. The only thing I've not heard of is anyone who saw it not feeling that the Goblins needed to be exterminated. Mission accomplished as far as I'm concerned.
deleted
Quote from: Valatar on August 21, 2021, 10:31:15 PM
...The difference here is that Goblin Slayer isn't a political product. It has no agenda to support or oppose. It's just a popular-ish story/comic/cartoon. Buying it won't send cash to an ideologue who propped up some garbage on kickstarter just to have some kind of message, it'll send cash to some Japanese guy who made his edgy D&D game into a book.
Exactly.
Goblin Slayer anime has
less on-screen rape, and
less on screen nudity
* than the Game of Thrones tv series.
Virtually all the "controversial content" is literally in just 30 seconds of the first episode.
And it is animated, as opposed to filming real Actors and Actresses doing those scenes.
Literally
less edgy than a popular live-action fantasy series that millions of people watched.
So why all the visceral hate!?
It is seriously disproportional to the actual Goblin Slayer content.
IMHO, fundamentally it is
This:
Quote from: rocksfalleverybodydies on August 27, 2021, 11:38:34 AM
After watching the anime series, most of it seems to hinge on two things: evil goblins and a protagonist who keeps his full-face helmet on at all times.
... the very concept of monsters being evil must be too hard to deal with. Whatever...
...
The Goblin Slayer setting goes against
The Narrative.
That. Cannot. Be. Tolerated.
So cue the Wailing and Gnashing of Teeth...
*In the Goblin Slayer anime, in all the "naked" depictions (And it is literally just a handful for the whole series...), scraps of clothing, and hair, conveniently obscure the private bits.
Quote from: Jaeger on August 27, 2021, 03:39:15 PM
Quote from: Valatar on August 21, 2021, 10:31:15 PM
...The difference here is that Goblin Slayer isn't a political product. It has no agenda to support or oppose. It's just a popular-ish story/comic/cartoon. Buying it won't send cash to an ideologue who propped up some garbage on kickstarter just to have some kind of message, it'll send cash to some Japanese guy who made his edgy D&D game into a book.
Exactly.
Goblin Slayer anime has less on-screen rape, and less on screen nudity than the Game of Thrones tv series.
And it is animated, as opposed to filming real Actors and Actresses doing those scenes...
Literally less edgy than the popular live-action fantasy series that millions of people watched.
So why all the visceral hate!?
It is seriously disproportional to the actual Goblin Slayer content.
IMHO, fundamentally it is This:
Quote from: rocksfalleverybodydies on August 27, 2021, 11:38:34 AM
After watching the anime series, most of it seems to hinge on two things: evil goblins and a protagonist who keeps his full-face helmet on at all times.
... the very concept of monsters being evil must be too hard to deal with. Whatever...
...
The Goblin Slayer setting goes against The Narrative.
That. Cannot. Be. Tolerated.
So cue the Wailing and Gnashing of Teeth...
It's factually incorrect to say that GOT didn't invite tons and tons of criticism. Critique of it spawned the phrase "rape as wallpaper." It's been criticized numerous times for its exploitative, gratuitous, racist, misogynistic (http://generalhamfannery.blogspot.com/2014/09/the-sexism-of-game-of-thrones-why-it.html), etc content.
Outside of the torture-porn GOT is much better written than GS because G.R.R. Martin was a seasoned writer when he wrote it. GS has huge tonal issues. GOT's tone is consistently grimdark as opposed to being grimdark torture-porn in the first episode and then subsequent episodes are typical lighthearted anime hijinks like GS.
The manga version of GS
is hardcore pornographic. I'm not gonna link it here, but if you look for it you'll find that it is full of women being gang raped and framed in a hardcore pornographic fashion.
Furthermore, GS has been criticized by 4chan of all places (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Goblin_Slayer) for reasons other than the torture-porn. The worldbuilding is non-existent and the basic conceits of the setting are contradictory.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 27, 2021, 03:55:59 PM
...
It's factually incorrect to say that GOT didn't invite tons and tons of criticism.
Please show the line in my post where I have the words: "Game of Thrones was never criticized..."
Oh wait, I said no such thing. Nice try.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 27, 2021, 03:55:59 PM
Critique of it spawned the phrase "rape as wallpaper." It's been criticized numerous times for its exploitative, gratuitous, racist, misogynistic (http://generalhamfannery.blogspot.com/2014/09/the-sexism-of-game-of-thrones-why-it.html), etc content.
You forgot the:
"It's not Porn, it's HBO!" puns...
Both A Song of Ice and Fire Roleplaying, and A Game of Thrones (role-playing game), Were released when the content of the books was well known.
Zero locked threads on any RPG forums.
There are
Long threads about the Game of Thrones TV Series in the pop-culture sections on the same Forums that locked the Goblin Slayer Threads, while the series was airing, and all the criticisms known...
Zero locked discussions.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 27, 2021, 03:55:59 PM
Outside of the torture-porn GOT is much better written than GS because G.R.R. Martin was a seasoned writer when he wrote it. GS has huge tonal issues. GOT's tone is consistently grimdark as opposed to being grimdark torture-porn in the first episode and then subsequent episodes are typical lighthearted anime hijinks like GS.
Blah, blah, blah...
Goblin Slayer is not Shakespeare.
In other news: Water is Wet.
And thank you for helping me further highlight the hypocrisy and double standards of the Forums that freely discussed the GoT tv Series and RPG's.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 27, 2021, 03:55:59 PM
The manga version of GS is hardcore pornographic. I'm not gonna link it here, but if you look for it you'll find that it is full of women being gang raped and framed in a hardcore pornographic fashion.
Nobody is referencing the Magna version.
From the blurb about the games release, to the locked threads on the other Forums: They are all referencing the
Anime.
It is all about "Controversial anime to get a tabletop RPG"
https://www.geeknative.com/134247/goblin-slayer-controversial-anime-to-get-a-tabletop-rpg/
Missed that headline did you?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 27, 2021, 03:55:59 PM
Furthermore, GS has been criticized by 4chan of all places (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Goblin_Slayer) for reasons other than the torture-porn. The worldbuilding is non-existent and the basic conceits of the setting are contradictory.
So just like D&D then.
I give you a 2 out of 5 for trying to obfuscate the hypocrisy of your fellow travelers.
For those who aren't familiar with GS, the manga is most explicitly NOT hardcore pornography. You see nipples and that's it. It's bloody and dark in places, but there are no depictions of genitalia or actual penetration. And the scenes where you do see any nudity are almost entirely portrayed in a way that 99% of people wouldn't find titillating. There's always that 1%, of course.
Moreover, Japan's laws wouldn't allow for any genitalia to be shown, anyway. Plenty of series try to get around this by either showing outlines or slightly obscuring the character's naughty bits, but GS is not one of those series. If GS was intended as pornography, you can bet there'd be a lot more focus on the nudity (which honestly doesn't pop up all that often).
Quote from: Brand55 on August 27, 2021, 07:21:48 PM
For those who aren't familiar with GS, the manga is most explicitly NOT hardcore pornography. You see nipples and that's it. It's bloody and dark in places, but there are no depictions of genitalia or actual penetration. And the scenes where you do see any nudity are almost entirely portrayed in a way that 99% of people wouldn't find titillating. There's always that 1%, of course.
Moreover, Japan's laws wouldn't allow for any genitalia to be shown, anyway. Plenty of series try to get around this by either showing outlines or slightly obscuring the character's naughty bits, but GS is not one of those series. If GS was intended as pornography, you can bet there'd be a lot more focus on the nudity (which honestly doesn't pop up all that often*).
So BoxCrayon
straight-up Lied to try and give his weak-sauce talking points some weight...
Quell surprise.
Perhaps he is not sure what hard core pornography looks like? I am sure there has to be a dude somewhere over 30 who is not sure what it looks like, even in the age of the internet.
Quote from: oggsmash on August 27, 2021, 07:52:22 PM
Perhaps he is not sure what hard core pornography looks like?
Or a bit of a god botherer. Down with that sort of thing!
Don't get me wrong, Goblin Slayer definitely isn't something I'd recommend to one of my young nieces as a way to get her introduced to D&D or manga. But it pales in comparison to stuff that actually IS pornography. Another series I read, Hagure Idol Jigokuhen, is an interesting martial arts manga cloaked in hardcore porn. The first "arc" consists of the main character fighting 100 men, one at a time, to keep them from gangbanging her. And then it only gets crazier and more explicit from there. Compared to a series like that, Goblin Slayer might as well be My Little Pony . . . with a little goblin rape, of course.
To bring it back to the rpg, most of the more explicit stuff would likely be a "fade to black" scene or just not narrated in explicit detail by the GM. I expect the vast majority of players would play it like that, and it would be no more graphic than most other games.
Quote from: Brand55 on August 27, 2021, 08:17:33 PM
To bring it back to the rpg, most of the more explicit stuff would likely be a "fade to black" scene or just not narrated in explicit detail by the GM. I expect the vast majority of players would play it like that, and it would be no more graphic than most other games.
Exactly... Players would be dealing with of off screen consequences of vile monsters' actions. I don't think any normal players would want a blow by blow account, or any graphic detail.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 27, 2021, 08:26:31 PM
...
Exactly... Players would be dealing with of off screen consequences of vile monsters' actions. I don't think any normal players would want a blow by blow account, or any graphic detail.
Add my Exactly to this as well.
Normal players don't go into graphic detail. Fade to Black is a long standing, and time honored tradition in RPG's...
It really is a Total non-issue. It's not like the idea of orcs/goblins raping captives was invented by the writer of Goblin Slayer after all...
IMHO, it is all the pearl-clutching crowd projecting onto normal players the actions and fears borne from within their own 'progressive' community.
With all the nerfing of charm and sleep spells, the increased rarity of PC death, and the rise of RPG "safety tools": I'm really warming up to the notion that Koebel was just a typical example of a 'male-feminist' that got caught out in public...
Quote from: Jaeger on August 27, 2021, 09:25:56 PM
Add my Exactly to this as well.
Normal players don't go into graphic detail. Fade to Black is a long standing, and time honored tradition in RPG's...
It really is a Total non-issue. It's not like the idea of orcs/goblins raping captives was invented by the writer of Goblin Slayer after all...
IMHO, it is all the pearl-clutching crowd projecting onto normal players the actions and fears borne from within their own 'progressive' community.
With all the nerfing of charm and sleep spells, the increased rarity of PC death, and the rise of RPG "safety tools": I'm really warming up to the notion that Koebel was just a typical example of a 'male-feminist' that got caught out in public...
I remember my first introduction to half-orcs presented them mostly as products of human women being raped by orcs. None of the people I played with back then blinked an eye at that, and we certainly didn't go out and roleplay it. We had half-orc PCs and NPCs and it was just a part of the world.
Another thing to keep in mind with GS is that goblins are actually just one small fraction of the enemies in the world. The series focuses on them because it's about Goblin Slayer, but most adventurers don't even give them a second thought. It would be incredibly easy to never take on a goblin-slaying quest. You could have a group of adventurers that never even need to fade to black in the first place.
Ummmm people, I've just had a thought.....
You do realise that we're debating something that may not occur - the Goblin Slayer (English) RPG may not actually contain any reference to 'rape'!
The original Japanese webnovel (or at least the English (fan) translation that I can locate online) did contain rape. Obviously the manga and anime also have this (haven't actually seen the manga).
But I've just located what I believe to be the official English release of the first novel, and the chapter in the first dungeon doesn't contain any direct rape scene. A search of the novel reveals three references to 'rape', purely as hypotheticals.
On a number of occasions readers have complained about English translations of Japanese light novels removing controvertials scenes/plots, so why wouldn't this occur with GS RPG (assuming that the Japanese RPG did contain such a reference)?
Quote from: Tantavalist on August 27, 2021, 12:30:14 PM
A lot of the most controversial stuff happened in the first episode/story/chapter/whatever it was before anime.
I think this was probably a deliberate move. So many people have "Subverted the Trope" of the Evil Races by making them sympathetic that by this point it's becoming more like the standard option. Inevitably the first thing that would come up if the idea of something like Goblin Slayer came out was someone asking "But who is really the villain here?" and questioning if evil was just down to point of view.
I've heard of a lot of reactions to the first episode of Goblin Slayer. The only thing I've not heard of is anyone who saw it not feeling that the Goblins needed to be exterminated. Mission accomplished as far as I'm concerned.
There is another anime out before Goblin Slayer with a similar theme who's name eludes me.
Base idea was people from earth wake up in a fantasy world and are thrust into a very very deadly environment with a system that seems built to keep these arrivals trapped as adventurers. The goblins for example are very much a threat and very hostile. But in the background they are shown playing games and having some sort of society. Far as I could tell it was never explained exactly why everyones fighting. But the baseline is the monster races are hostile to varying degrees and co-existence seems impossible.
You can have hostile beings with culture and still be utterly hostile for whatever reasons.
The problem with SJWs is that they have lied to the point alot of folk think the lie us the truth. That a monsters alignment listed in especially D&D is some sort of set in stone edict from GOD and there were never ever ever anything else allowed ever.
Because they never actually read the damn books.
Quote from: ponta1010 on August 28, 2021, 02:21:05 AM
Ummmm people, I've just had a thought.....
You do realise that we're debating something that may not occur - the Goblin Slayer (English) RPG may not actually contain any reference to 'rape'!
But I've just located what I believe to be the official English release of the first novel, and the chapter in the first dungeon doesn't contain any direct rape scene. A search of the novel reveals three references to 'rape', purely as hypotheticals.
On a number of occasions readers have complained about English translations of Japanese light novels removing controvertials scenes/plots, so why wouldn't this occur with GS RPG (assuming that the Japanese RPG did contain such a reference)?
I was wondering about this too. Didnt know that the censoring was kicking in again with this stuff.
The main difference between Goblin Slayer and Game of Thrones is I still want to read more Goblin Slayer. After the boring ass slog that was A Dance with Dragons, I no longer care if Martin lives to finish the series. Especially now that we know how lame the ending will be. Also. I'll take rape over the torture porn that the GoT series has turned into any day.
Quote from: Jaeger on August 27, 2021, 05:57:08 PM
I give you a 2 out of 5 for trying to obfuscate the hypocrisy of your fellow travelers.
I wasn't trying to say they weren't hypocritical. I don't visit RPGnet, but from what you're saying they do sound hypocritical.
Quote from: Jaeger on August 27, 2021, 07:44:54 PM
So BoxCrayon straight-up Lied to try and give his weak-sauce talking points some weight...
Quell surprise.
I was mistaken. "Lying" means deliberately telling an untruth. That's not what I did.
I'm not inclined to glance at more than a few panels from the manga to double-check exactly how softcore or hardcore pornographic it was because I found it gratuitous, exploitative, cruel, sadistic and generally repugnant. It depicts numerous girls being introduced only to be gang raped and then, if they survive, discarded by the narrative. In terms of horrid stuff I remember reading in manga that aren't intended to be porn, it's tied with the factory assembly line that dismembers girls in
Elfen Lied and that one whose title I don't recall with a criminal resembling Jabba the Hutt who rapes boys until they explode into piles of gore.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 27, 2021, 08:26:31 PM
Exactly... Players would be dealing with of off screen consequences of vile monsters' actions. I don't think any normal players would want a blow by blow account, or any graphic detail.
Well, sure. But do we really need to suggest (or outright state) that rape is involved in the first place?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 30, 2021, 12:54:11 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on August 27, 2021, 05:57:08 PM
I give you a 2 out of 5 for trying to obfuscate the hypocrisy of your fellow travelers.
I wasn't trying to say they weren't hypocritical. I don't visit RPGnet, but from what you're saying they do sound hypocritical.
Quote from: Jaeger on August 27, 2021, 07:44:54 PM
So BoxCrayon straight-up Lied to try and give his weak-sauce talking points some weight...
Quell surprise.
I was mistaken. "Lying" means deliberately telling an untruth. That's not what I did.
I'm not inclined to glance at more than a few panels from the manga to double-check exactly how softcore or hardcore pornographic it was because I found it gratuitous, exploitative, cruel, sadistic and generally repugnant. It depicts numerous girls being introduced only to be gang raped and then, if they survive, discarded by the narrative. In terms of horrid stuff I remember reading in manga that aren't intended to be porn, it's tied with the factory assembly line that dismembers girls in Elfen Lied and that one whose title I don't recall with a criminal resembling Jabba the Hutt who rapes boys until they explode into piles of gore.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 27, 2021, 08:26:31 PM
Exactly... Players would be dealing with of off screen consequences of vile monsters' actions. I don't think any normal players would want a blow by blow account, or any graphic detail.
Well, sure. But do we really need to suggest (or outright state) that rape is involved in the first place?
Greetings!
Geesus. Just stick to rated G games then. Yes, in a game for adults, that depicts a brutal, medieval-like fantasy world, things like conquest, torture, and fucking rape happen. All the time. It's a common occurrence throughout history.
There's no need to tap-dance an write a product like it is aimed at blushing old women or children.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 30, 2021, 12:54:11 PM
Well, sure. But do we really need to suggest (or outright state) that rape is involved in the first place?
[/quote]
Well... if you want to use the cannon as is, then you do. But again, this is more of a plot device, in order to spur the players into kicking the shit out of goblins and other evil folk. It highlights just how vile they really are. And it just shows how much the heroes are needed to protect the innocent. Remember, were not talking about showing the rape per se or letting it happen to a player. It something that occurs in a 'nebulous' fashion, it sexists in 'concept' and not in physical form per.
Of course you could 'redact' this element from the game for the sake of someone's fee fees. But then, I suspect this game is not for them in the first place, and they would be better off with 5e, and a fluffy Ravenloft setting or some such.
I can never fathom why people (sjw + weirdo religious types) are so squeamish around silly little game of make believe. It's not as if anyone is off recreating the game in real life or saying 'rape' is a good thing.
One: Because you don't have to play them.
Two: They're not real - it's a game of imagination, just play the games you feel comfortable with instead of playing something dark.
Three: Who has the moral authority to tell me (or anyone for that matter) what games we should or shouldn't play?
Four: Never bow to artistic censorship - So feck those woke or hyper religious types.
In closing that's why you need to be able to mention it in a game imo. :)
Quote from: SHARK on August 30, 2021, 01:19:31 PM
Geesus. Just stick to rated G games then. Yes, in a game for adults, that depicts a brutal, medieval-like fantasy world, things like conquest, torture, and fucking rape happen. All the time. It's a common occurrence throughout history.
There's no need to tap-dance an write a product like it is aimed at blushing old women or children.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Indeedy! Pretty much what I was saying. :)
Quote from: SHARK on August 30, 2021, 01:19:31 PM
Greetings!
Geesus. Just stick to rated G games then. Yes, in a game for adults, that depicts a brutal, medieval-like fantasy world, things like conquest, torture, and fucking rape happen. All the time. It's a common occurrence throughout history.
There's no need to tap-dance an write a product like it is aimed at blushing old women or children.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
D&D is a hobby for both children and adults.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 30, 2021, 01:29:14 PM
Well... if you want to use the cannon as is, then you do. But again, this is more of a plot device, in order to spur the players into kicking the shit out of goblins and other evil folk. It highlights just how vile they really are. And it just shows how much the heroes are needed to protect the innocent. Remember, were not talking about showing the rape per se or letting it happen to a player. It something that occurs in a 'nebulous' fashion, it sexists in 'concept' and not in physical form per.
Is it not enough for them to kill and eat people? To butcher villages?
When a quarter of the male population in real life
admits to being violent rapists (https://www.unwomen.org/en/news/stories/2013/9/half-of-men-report-using-violence-and-a-quarter-perpetrate-rape-according-to-un-survey) (with plenty more not admitting to it), it's hard for me to see rape as a indicator of inhuman evil.
Being a rapist or a victim is the normal state of existence for billions of people.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 30, 2021, 01:49:04 PM
Quote from: SHARK on August 30, 2021, 01:19:31 PM
Greetings!
Geesus. Just stick to rated G games then. Yes, in a game for adults, that depicts a brutal, medieval-like fantasy world, things like conquest, torture, and fucking rape happen. All the time. It's a common occurrence throughout history.
There's no need to tap-dance an write a product like it is aimed at blushing old women or children.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
D&D is a hobby for both children and adults.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 30, 2021, 01:29:14 PM
Well... if you want to use the cannon as is, then you do. But again, this is more of a plot device, in order to spur the players into kicking the shit out of goblins and other evil folk. It highlights just how vile they really are. And it just shows how much the heroes are needed to protect the innocent. Remember, were not talking about showing the rape per se or letting it happen to a player. It something that occurs in a 'nebulous' fashion, it sexists in 'concept' and not in physical form per.
Is it not enough for them to kill and eat people? To butcher villages?
When a quarter of the male population in real life admits to being violent rapists (https://www.unwomen.org/en/news/stories/2013/9/half-of-men-report-using-violence-and-a-quarter-perpetrate-rape-according-to-un-survey) (with plenty more not admitting to it), it's hard for me to see rape as a indicator of inhuman evil. Being a rapist or a victim is the normal state of existence for billions of people.
Couple of things.
RPGing is a game for everyone. True...
That said, this particular game is not and like many other dark games, it's aimed at mature adults. Same as horror films or disturbing media, you don't allow your kids to view, or play them. And most adults, who don't like that stuff have the common sense to stay away from it. No X-Cards around here... Step up and take responsibility for yourself and what you consume.
Now this other 'facts' you bring up (quarter of all men, I find that a touch dubious?). I would very much doubt it's that high (not in Ireland anyway).
But what the actual fcuk have they that got to do with an imaginary game? I tell you what, not a jot. This is the usual classic diversionary tactic. 'But but but... rape in the real world. Cesor... censor...censor'. What has that got to do with me? Or most other 'normal' males? nothing, we don't abuse women.
Incidentally, I teach women self-defense, so I have a real problem with males who abuse women. Any man that uses violence against women (or a weaker person) is a P.O.S. and should be punished harshly by the authorities.
Now back to your whataboutisim, lets talk about 'real world problems' as depicted in 'imaginary rpg games'. If rape is so bad to have in 'passing', for the game's actual cannon. I presume you think it is a problem for women and somehow promotes violence or normalizes it in the real world Or that us white dudes have no empathy? I'd like to see some scientific evidence for that correlation (in rpg, games and violent films, etc.).
So we can't have rape mentioned 'off-screen' but yet we can have, god knows what, in other RPGs? All other violence and mayhem is acceptable. Drugs, cannibalism, torture, vile magic, human sacrifice, killing of children, vile monsters that do unspeakable things, sexual deviants, Xenomorphs that rape men and women - who's spawn erupts from a victims belly. I could go on and on... But you get the idea. Do those games propose people go off and do those things? Nope.
Basically, I find your problem with rape 'off screen' hypocritical considering burning people to death and eating women and children is okay. Go figure...
But would you not be better off just ignoring these games in the first place?
But hey, you do you as the saying goes.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 30, 2021, 02:20:19 PMThat said, this particular game is not and like many other dark games, it's aimed at mature adults.
Well mature in the sense of being un-squimish. I wouldn't really call Goblin Slayer 'Mature'. Its like how Family Guy is technically mature animation.
But overall having rape in games isn't really all that different then murder or slaughter or the like.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on August 30, 2021, 02:51:09 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 30, 2021, 02:20:19 PMThat said, this particular game is not and like many other dark games, it's aimed at mature adults.
Well mature in the sense of being un-squimish. I wouldn't really call Goblin Slayer 'Mature'. Its like how Family Guy is technically mature animation.
But overall having rape in games isn't really all that different then murder or slaughter or the like.
Greetings!
Yep, my friend! In a world that has slasher flicks with people being hacked apart by chainsaws, stabbed to death with ice-picks, or slowly skinned alive, with anal sex being taught to 6th graders in elementary schools, the joys of dildos, and 12 year old girls are watching gang-bangs on Pornhub on their Smart Phones every day...
I find someone having a stroke about "Rape" being mentioned in a hard-core fantasy RPG being pearl-clutching, and way out of the times.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 30, 2021, 02:20:19 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 30, 2021, 01:49:04 PM
Quote from: SHARK on August 30, 2021, 01:19:31 PM
Greetings!
Geesus. Just stick to rated G games then. Yes, in a game for adults, that depicts a brutal, medieval-like fantasy world, things like conquest, torture, and fucking rape happen. All the time. It's a common occurrence throughout history.
There's no need to tap-dance an write a product like it is aimed at blushing old women or children.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
D&D is a hobby for both children and adults.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 30, 2021, 01:29:14 PM
Well... if you want to use the cannon as is, then you do. But again, this is more of a plot device, in order to spur the players into kicking the shit out of goblins and other evil folk. It highlights just how vile they really are. And it just shows how much the heroes are needed to protect the innocent. Remember, were not talking about showing the rape per se or letting it happen to a player. It something that occurs in a 'nebulous' fashion, it sexists in 'concept' and not in physical form per.
Is it not enough for them to kill and eat people? To butcher villages?
When a quarter of the male population in real life admits to being violent rapists (https://www.unwomen.org/en/news/stories/2013/9/half-of-men-report-using-violence-and-a-quarter-perpetrate-rape-according-to-un-survey) (with plenty more not admitting to it), it's hard for me to see rape as a indicator of inhuman evil. Being a rapist or a victim is the normal state of existence for billions of people.
Couple of things.
RPGing is a game for everyone. True...
That said, this particular game is not and like many other dark games, it's aimed at mature adults. Same as horror films or disturbing media, you don't allow your kids to view, or play them. And most adults, who don't like that stuff have the common sense to stay away from it. No X-Cards around here... Step up and take responsibility for yourself and what you consume.
Now this other 'facts' you bring up (quarter of all men, I find that a touch dubious?). I would very much doubt it's that high (not in Ireland anyway).
But what the actual fcuk have they that got to do with an imaginary game? I tell you what, not a jot. This is the usual classic diversionary tactic. 'But but but... rape in the real world. Cesor... censor...censor'. What has that got to do with me? Or most other 'normal' males? nothing, we don't abuse women.
Incidentally, I teach women self-defense, so I have a real problem with males who abuse women. Any man that uses violence against women (or a weaker person) is a P.O.S. and should be punished harshly by the authorities.
Now back to your whataboutisim, lets talk about 'real world problems' as depicted in 'imaginary rpg games'. If rape is so bad to have in 'passing', for the game's actual cannon. I presume you think it is a problem for women and somehow promotes violence or normalizes it in the real world Or that us white dudes have no empathy? I'd like to see some scientific evidence for that correlation (in rpg, games and violent films, etc.).
So we can't have rape mentioned 'off-screen' but yet we can have, god knows what, in other RPGs? All other violence and mayhem is acceptable. Drugs, cannibalism, torture, vile magic, human sacrifice, killing of children, vile monsters that do unspeakable things, sexual deviants, Xenomorphs that rape men and women - who's spawn erupts from a victims belly. I could go on and on... But you get the idea. Do those games propose people go off and do those things? Nope.
Basically, I find your problem with rape 'off screen' hypocritical considering burning people to death and eating women and children is okay. Go figure...
But would you not be better off just ignoring these games in the first place?
But hey, you do you as the saying goes.
Greetings!
*Laughng* Exactly, Rob!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on August 30, 2021, 02:51:09 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 30, 2021, 02:20:19 PMThat said, this particular game is not and like many other dark games, it's aimed at mature adults.
Well mature in the sense of being un-squimish. I wouldn't really call Goblin Slayer 'Mature'. Its like how Family Guy is technically mature animation.
But overall having rape in games isn't really all that different then murder or slaughter or the like.
Yep, I'm talking about 'mature' as in an R rated or 18+. A lot of anime tends to be a little bit juvenile for my tastes (or has some very silly elements in it). I'm not a huge fan unless it's like the original Vampire Hunter D or something.
That's what I would think too. Especially given the fact, that it's of screen so-to-speak where as you could be slashing people to bits in game. Or gunning someone down in the street or having drug addiction, etc. Again, you could say these are comparable in some aspects to 'real life' events, that affect real people. But these are fine of course.
At the end of the day, if people want to be prudish or sensitive about certain subjects that's fine. It's really none of my business, and I don't care what they play, just as long as they don't try and control others.
Quote from: SHARK on August 30, 2021, 03:04:51 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 30, 2021, 02:20:19 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 30, 2021, 01:49:04 PM
Quote from: SHARK on August 30, 2021, 01:19:31 PM
Greetings!
Geesus. Just stick to rated G games then. Yes, in a game for adults, that depicts a brutal, medieval-like fantasy world, things like conquest, torture, and fucking rape happen. All the time. It's a common occurrence throughout history.
There's no need to tap-dance an write a product like it is aimed at blushing old women or children.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
D&D is a hobby for both children and adults.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 30, 2021, 01:29:14 PM
Well... if you want to use the cannon as is, then you do. But again, this is more of a plot device, in order to spur the players into kicking the shit out of goblins and other evil folk. It highlights just how vile they really are. And it just shows how much the heroes are needed to protect the innocent. Remember, were not talking about showing the rape per se or letting it happen to a player. It something that occurs in a 'nebulous' fashion, it sexists in 'concept' and not in physical form per.
Is it not enough for them to kill and eat people? To butcher villages?
When a quarter of the male population in real life admits to being violent rapists (https://www.unwomen.org/en/news/stories/2013/9/half-of-men-report-using-violence-and-a-quarter-perpetrate-rape-according-to-un-survey) (with plenty more not admitting to it), it's hard for me to see rape as a indicator of inhuman evil. Being a rapist or a victim is the normal state of existence for billions of people.
Couple of things.
RPGing is a game for everyone. True...
That said, this particular game is not and like many other dark games, it's aimed at mature adults. Same as horror films or disturbing media, you don't allow your kids to view, or play them. And most adults, who don't like that stuff have the common sense to stay away from it. No X-Cards around here... Step up and take responsibility for yourself and what you consume.
Now this other 'facts' you bring up (quarter of all men, I find that a touch dubious?). I would very much doubt it's that high (not in Ireland anyway).
But what the actual fcuk have they that got to do with an imaginary game? I tell you what, not a jot. This is the usual classic diversionary tactic. 'But but but... rape in the real world. Cesor... censor...censor'. What has that got to do with me? Or most other 'normal' males? nothing, we don't abuse women.
Incidentally, I teach women self-defense, so I have a real problem with males who abuse women. Any man that uses violence against women (or a weaker person) is a P.O.S. and should be punished harshly by the authorities.
Now back to your whataboutisim, lets talk about 'real world problems' as depicted in 'imaginary rpg games'. If rape is so bad to have in 'passing', for the game's actual cannon. I presume you think it is a problem for women and somehow promotes violence or normalizes it in the real world Or that us white dudes have no empathy? I'd like to see some scientific evidence for that correlation (in rpg, games and violent films, etc.).
So we can't have rape mentioned 'off-screen' but yet we can have, god knows what, in other RPGs? All other violence and mayhem is acceptable. Drugs, cannibalism, torture, vile magic, human sacrifice, killing of children, vile monsters that do unspeakable things, sexual deviants, Xenomorphs that rape men and women - who's spawn erupts from a victims belly. I could go on and on... But you get the idea. Do those games propose people go off and do those things? Nope.
Basically, I find your problem with rape 'off screen' hypocritical considering burning people to death and eating women and children is okay. Go figure...
But would you not be better off just ignoring these games in the first place?
But hey, you do you as the saying goes.
Greetings!
*Laughng* Exactly, Rob!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Cheers mate. :)
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 30, 2021, 02:20:19 PM
So we can't have rape mentioned 'off-screen' but yet we can have, god knows what, in other RPGs? All other violence and mayhem is acceptable. Drugs, cannibalism, torture, vile magic, human sacrifice, killing of children, vile monsters that do unspeakable things, sexual deviants, Xenomorphs that rape men and women - who's spawn erupts from a victims belly. I could go on and on... But you get the idea. Do those games propose people go off and do those things? Nope.
Basically, I find your problem with rape 'off screen' hypocritical considering burning people to death and eating women and children is okay. Go figure...
But would you not be better off just ignoring these games in the first place?
But hey, you do you as the saying goes.
I agree with you, actually. I think there's this weird preoccupation with gamers running these weird atrocity contests where we try to see who can design the most vicious monsters, generally with the intent to piss off distant SJWs. I'm satisfied with monsters being plain old bags of loot and XP. I don't need their actions to be detailed beyond "they do bad things, so we have to stop them." Real life is already chock full of awful shit like addiction, disenfranchisement, torture, modern day slavery, endemic rape, etc that's easily the equal of all but the most extreme grimdark fiction. I don't need that detailed in my elf-games because it ruins the escapism for me, unless we're playing heroes who end slavery or whatever.
I wouldn't mind a book about "adult themes" that discusses dealing with such issues in a nuanced and respectful manner for those interested. But in general I think fiction takes a rather flippant attitude towards violence that does a disservice to people who suffer it.
Quote from: SHARK on August 30, 2021, 03:03:03 PM
In a world that has slasher flicks with people being hacked apart by chainsaws, stabbed to death with ice-picks, or slowly skinned alive, with anal sex being taught to 6th graders in elementary schools, the joys of dildos, and 12 year old girls are watching gang-bangs on Pornhub on their Smart Phones every day...
This is precisely why I shy away from gruesome violence and sexual violence. It wrecks my escapism and comes across in poor taste.
When real teenage boys are being trained by their phones to see sex as a brutal act of violence and domination, seeing the same thing repeated in Japanese comics except with thinly-veiled "monsters" just reminds me of how shitty real life is. Humans are the real monsters.
I've been lurking here for a few months now, thinking about creating an account, but since I'm actually reading the Goblin Slayer light novels right now, this makes as good a thread as any to make my debut.
I'm really excited for the TTRPG. There is world building in the novels that isn't in the anime, and being based on roleplaying games in the first place means that it would translate quite easily to a playable experience, mechanically and narratively. This is a TTRPG for fans of the property, so sanitizing it so that it no longer represented the property would defeat the purpose of its very existence. And arguing that its existence is unnecessary is selfish.
Japan, in general, has always been more okay with extremity in their entertainment. In many ways, that's why Japanese entertainment is popular in the West, among both men and women (yaoi being an example of something that couldn't have come from anywhere but Japan). When Japan remakes a US or Korean show, they tend to add edge to it where none existed, and when the US or Korea remakes a Japanese property, they ultimately remove the sharp edges (Battle Royale vs Hunger Games, for example).
Judging, criticizing, and ultimately changing Japanese works solely from the perspective of an American is... we need a word that means the opposite of "cultural appropriation"... Cultural oppression, maybe? Cultural colonization? Nonconsensual cultural penetration?
I say let Japan keep the edge. After all, manga is currently outselling the entire US comic book industry 100 to 1. They must be doing something right.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 30, 2021, 01:49:04 PM
D&D is a hobby for both children and adults.
Not necessarily at the same time. That's a bit like saying "television is for both children and adults", ignoring the fact that Mickey's Clubhouse isn't intended for adults, and Spartacus: Blood and Sand isn't intended for children.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 30, 2021, 01:29:14 PMWhen a quarter of the male population in real life admits to being violent rapists (https://www.unwomen.org/en/news/stories/2013/9/half-of-men-report-using-violence-and-a-quarter-perpetrate-rape-according-to-un-survey) (with plenty more not admitting to it), it's hard for me to see rape as a indicator of inhuman evil. Being a rapist or a victim is the normal state of existence for billions of people.
According to your link, 10,000 men were interviewed across nine sites in Bangladesh, Cambodia, China, Indonesia, Sri Lanka and Papua New Guinea - all third world countries with high poverty, high crime, and outdated social norms. To my knowledge, they aren't releasing Goblin Slayer TTRPG in Cambodia or Sri Lanka, so the number of rapists there is irrelevant nor representative of the environment in which the game will be released.
Quote from: Squidi on August 30, 2021, 03:33:09 PM
Judging, criticizing, and ultimately changing Japanese works solely from the perspective of an American is... we need a word that means the opposite of "cultural appropriation"... Cultural oppression, maybe? Cultural colonization? Nonconsensual cultural penetration?
Censorship. It's censorship.
Anyway, I support free speech. While I think stories like
Captain Marvel,
Twilight,
50 Shades of Grey,
Goblin Slayer,
Shield Hero,
Redo of Healer, etc are all poorly written garbage, I support the rights of creators to create them and consumers to consume them.
If you legalize censorship to censor ideologies you don't like, then you open the possibility it will be used against you in turn. The best way to fight bad ideas is with education, debate, and experimentation.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 30, 2021, 03:10:26 PMAt the end of the day, if people want to be prudish or sensitive about certain subjects that's fine. It's really none of my business, and I don't care what they play, just as long as they don't try and control others.
Agreed. I would even argue it would be good to be polite to those that are squeemish, as long as its not a social or lawful mandate.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 30, 2021, 03:50:38 PM
Censorship. It's censorship.
Well, I've heard some argue that it is "localization".
Regardless, it's obvious that saying "that's censorship" has no affect on the outcome of the discussion. The problem isn't that it is or isn't censorship, the problem is the censor doesn't care - I'd argue because they believe the ends justify the means. Censorship is only bad if it doesn't produce the desired outcome. What's the saying? "No bad tactics, only bad targets"?
The only defense for an edgy work like the Goblin Slayer TTRPG existing is that it is good. RPGnet can ban discussion about it all they want, but if it is good, people will still find it and they will enjoy it (maybe even despite prejudices against it), and the censorship becomes toothless.
One can argue that they don't like Goblin Slayer, but it is quite popular and well liked. It gets highly rated and has a high involvement rate among fans. I've seen it recommended often (even among forums where discussion of it is banned). It's had multiple successful spinoffs (including the TTRPG - localizing a Japanese RPG is rather uncommon, if not unprecedented). All the censorship of all the purple forums in the world won't make a dent in this.
And that's what angers them the most. That there is a substantial market for Goblin Slayer and there's nothing they can do about it... except, perhaps, making it seem even more desirable through their disapproval.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on August 30, 2021, 03:50:59 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 30, 2021, 03:10:26 PMAt the end of the day, if people want to be prudish or sensitive about certain subjects that's fine. It's really none of my business, and I don't care what they play, just as long as they don't try and control others.
Agreed. I would even argue it would be good to be polite to those that are squeemish, as long as its not a social or lawful mandate.
I gave up on being polite to the prude patrol decades ago. Moreso after seeing just how insane they can and will get.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 30, 2021, 03:29:15 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 30, 2021, 02:20:19 PM
So we can't have rape mentioned 'off-screen' but yet we can have, god knows what, in other RPGs? All other violence and mayhem is acceptable. Drugs, cannibalism, torture, vile magic, human sacrifice, killing of children, vile monsters that do unspeakable things, sexual deviants, Xenomorphs that rape men and women - who's spawn erupts from a victims belly. I could go on and on... But you get the idea. Do those games propose people go off and do those things? Nope.
Basically, I find your problem with rape 'off screen' hypocritical considering burning people to death and eating women and children is okay. Go figure...
But would you not be better off just ignoring these games in the first place?
But hey, you do you as the saying goes.
I agree with you, actually. I think there's this weird preoccupation with gamers running these weird atrocity contests where we try to see who can design the most vicious monsters, generally with the intent to piss off distant SJWs. I'm satisfied with monsters being plain old bags of loot and XP. I don't need their actions to be detailed beyond "they do bad things, so we have to stop them." Real life is already chock full of awful shit like addiction, disenfranchisement, torture, modern day slavery, endemic rape, etc that's easily the equal of all but the most extreme grimdark fiction. I don't need that detailed in my elf-games because it ruins the escapism for me, unless we're playing heroes who end slavery or whatever.
I wouldn't mind a book about "adult themes" that discusses dealing with such issues in a nuanced and respectful manner for those interested. But in general I think fiction takes a rather flippant attitude towards violence that does a disservice to people who suffer it.
Quote from: SHARK on August 30, 2021, 03:03:03 PM
In a world that has slasher flicks with people being hacked apart by chainsaws, stabbed to death with ice-picks, or slowly skinned alive, with anal sex being taught to 6th graders in elementary schools, the joys of dildos, and 12 year old girls are watching gang-bangs on Pornhub on their Smart Phones every day...
This is precisely why I shy away from gruesome violence and sexual violence. It wrecks my escapism and comes across in poor taste.
When real teenage boys are being trained by their phones to see sex as a brutal act of violence and domination, seeing the same thing repeated in Japanese comics except with thinly-veiled "monsters" just reminds me of how shitty real life is. Humans are the real monsters.
We can't really use that study you posted. I mean, it does'nt correlate to the West per se. That's not to say, that we don't have a problem here with abuse. We do! But it would be a far far cry from those statistics. So RPGs don't really come into it as a factor. In fact, it's very telling that the scale is so huge in those Asia pacific countries, and why they treat women like shit. Hmm... I wonder what that could be? ;)
Another problem with people saying that certain material ruins their 'escapism' is personal tastes. So, I grew up watching horror films: Phantasm, Alien, The Thing, Evil Dead, etc. Yes, my Mum loved horror and allowed me watch it when I was very young. Some people (actually a shitloads) are drawn to dark stuff as their form of escapism.
In some cases violence is glorified or extreme so it may come across as flippant - But basically only because it's nonsense and pure escapism. But we are all pretty normal people. Because (unlike the sjws) we can easily divorce ourselves intellectually from the media we consume. Only someone who's mentally fucked up can't, and they need professional help in most cases.
Teenage boys and pornography is a problem (science tells us so) - The kids need to be well educated on the subject and then understand that it's porn and not reality. But that is a subject far beyond role playing games of make believe. Sure, it should be for over 18s and harder to access but now that genies out of a bottle through unscrupulous vendors.
Don't get me wrong, I've nothing against (legal) pornography, but parents are not doing their kids any favors by keeping it all under wraps. Kids need to understand consent (especially men!). When I was a kid, it was all about top-shelf magazines. Mind you, tasteful pornography like that didn't stop or add to men abusing women in the 70' and 80s.
What I'm trying to say is, don't blame a person's actions on weaponizing the usual suspects: Porn, violent video games, manga, sex work, 18+ RPGs, violent or horror movies (or insert X bogyman here). Unless there is sufficient scientific data, and we can't count aberrant behavior from some psycho mad fucker. Personally, I'd be far more worried about some religious extremist nutter.
But you shying away from violence or horror is fine. You playing a family friendly elf game is fine. But that would bore the shit out of me personally. It's only when people try and interfere with what other people find enjoyable it becomes a problem. AKA - the bed wetters on twitter. As far as I'm concerned, as long as it's consenting adults and people know what they are getting into beforhand then it's fine. That's not to say I revel in extreme violence in RPGs. Most of my adventures are pretty banal. They will have no sex, but probably a shitload of violence and a good mystery. Oh, And a lot of damage to humans in the form of being brutally murdered or sacrificed, if it's in Call of Cthulhu. The dark gods need their blood.
As for people being edge lords just for the sake of it. I think is pretty rare these days in 2020. And now, in horror/violent games there is nearly always a big chunk on player's safety and fee fees. I'm a bit cynical for that myself, as I don't think any 'normal person' can be 'damaged' by an imaginary RPG. And if they can, it might be better that they took some responsibility and played games that they could handle. If you decide to play Kult or CoC and the GM tells you that it's for mature people with 18+ content, then I'm sorry, but you got the memo...
I mean, making a game just to be edgy seems a bit juvenile. However, given the recent blow back from the strident woke crowd and zealot weirdo Christians I'm happy if people want to make shit just to piss them off. Nothing wrong with some obnoxious humor and satire just to rattle the cage every now and then. That's why we need LoTFP and Jame's Raggi, etc. Alas, we can no longer rely on WFRP anymore.
I do agree with you however... Humans are the only monsters you'll ever meet. I've been teaching self-defense for years (men & women) and virtually everyone I've trained has a very horrific story to tell.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on August 30, 2021, 03:50:59 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 30, 2021, 03:10:26 PMAt the end of the day, if people want to be prudish or sensitive about certain subjects that's fine. It's really none of my business, and I don't care what they play, just as long as they don't try and control others.
Agreed. I would even argue it would be good to be polite to those that are squeemish, as long as its not a social or lawful mandate.
Yeah, I don't advocate being 'mean' to someone, especially if they are interested in gaming with you (or pop into a facebook group). It's more the twatter crowd but never the casual gamer. As far as I'm concerned everyone should be welcome to play RPGs - Unless their an asshole.
Quote from: Squidi on August 30, 2021, 03:33:09 PM
Judging, criticizing, and ultimately changing Japanese works solely from the perspective of an American is... we need a word that means the opposite of "cultural appropriation"... Cultural oppression, maybe? Cultural colonization? Nonconsensual cultural penetration?
"Cultural Sanitization" would be how I would put it...
Quote from: Squidi on August 30, 2021, 04:11:36 PM
...
The only defense for an edgy work like the Goblin Slayer TTRPG existing is that it is good. RPGnet can ban discussion about it all they want, but if it is good, people will still find it and they will enjoy it (maybe even despite prejudices against it), and the censorship becomes toothless.
One can argue that they don't like Goblin Slayer, but it is quite popular and well liked. It gets highly rated and has a high involvement rate among fans. I've seen it recommended often (even among forums where discussion of it is banned). It's had multiple successful spinoffs (including the TTRPG - localizing a Japanese RPG is rather uncommon, if not unprecedented). All the censorship of all the purple forums in the world won't make a dent in this.
And that's what angers them the most. That there is a substantial market for Goblin Slayer and there's nothing they can do about it... except, perhaps, making it seem even more desirable through their disapproval.
Very much This.
As proven in this thread, when it comes to its alleged 'Edgyness' - it is no more edgy than The Game of Thrones tv series...
The censoring of all things GS in the RPG community is
over-the-top when you take an objective look at its
actual content.Why does Goblin Slayer seems to be singled out for a special level of visceral hate?
Ok kids, uncle Jaeger is about to go off of the deep end again - Prepare yourselves...
*adjusts Tin-Foil Hat that knows no limit*Just look at the GS 'adventuring party':
(https://image.photocnc.com/aoaodcom/2020-03/04/202003040718458ed2dd4c24578b3e409cacb2bc78dbab.jpg.h400.jpg)
You have a lizard man (which no one bats an eye at), old due with a ponytail and ear plugs, Elf girl, Priestess girl, and a dude in armor.
With nonsense worldbuilding, Cutesy Anime art, a gender and racially diverse adventuring party; On the surface, Goblin Slayer ticks all the right boxes for a new-school Woke Anime & RPG!
The cool kids should be eating this up!
And I'm willing to bet that at a first glance many of them wanted to.
After all, Slayers are cool right? Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Goblin Slayer, 'i's' dotted and 'T's' crossed; From the name of the series to the composition of the main cast, this one sure looks like a made for SJW fandom winner! Right!
Right?
But then:
BOOYAKASHA BITCHES!
(https://ytimg.googleusercontent.com/vi/uXO-hWUdJYY/mqdefault.jpg)
Expectations. Subverted. Motherfuckers.
They
love to dish it out, but...
They really, really, really, have a hard time choking it down when it comes back the other way...
IMHO - The fact that Goblin Slayer didn't do any of this intentionally just makes their reaction all the more ridiculous.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 30, 2021, 07:07:50 PM
As for people being edge lords just for the sake of it. I think is pretty rare these days in 2020. And now, in horror/violent games there is nearly always a big chunk on player's safety and fee fees. I'm a bit cynical for that myself, as I don't think any 'normal person' can be 'damaged' by an imaginary RPG. And if they can, it might be better that they took some responsibility and played games that they could handle. If you decide to play Kult or CoC and the GM tells you that it's for mature people with 18+ content, then I'm sorry, but you got the memo...
I mean, making a game just to be edgy seems a bit juvenile. However, given the recent blow back from the strident woke crowd and zealot weirdo Christians I'm happy if people want to make shit just to piss them off. Nothing wrong with some obnoxious humor and satire just to rattle the cage every now and then. That's why we need LoTFP and Jame's Raggi, etc. Alas, we can no longer rely on WFRP anymore.
Oh gawds yas this. I've been so baffled by the constant sjw claim that they know people who were hurt by the depiction of orcs or drow.....and I'm like in what way? But no satisfactory answers. How has Daniel Kwan been hurt by Oriental Adventures? I've never found an answer. I'm gonna sound like a green blooded vulcan but.....it's so illogical.
Quote from: Jaeger on August 30, 2021, 07:14:06 PM
Expectations. Subverted. Motherfuckers.
They love to dish it out, but...
They really, really, really, have a hard time choking it down when it comes back the other way...
IMHO - The fact that Goblin Slayer didn't do any of this intentionally just makes their reaction all the more ridiculous.
Yup, they love to dish it out but when we throw the term 'woke' at them they sure hate it. Just like they throw the term 'bigot' out anytime they want.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on August 30, 2021, 11:55:25 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 30, 2021, 07:07:50 PM
As for people being edge lords just for the sake of it. I think is pretty rare these days in 2020. And now, in horror/violent games there is nearly always a big chunk on player's safety and fee fees. I'm a bit cynical for that myself, as I don't think any 'normal person' can be 'damaged' by an imaginary RPG. And if they can, it might be better that they took some responsibility and played games that they could handle. If you decide to play Kult or CoC and the GM tells you that it's for mature people with 18+ content, then I'm sorry, but you got the memo...
I mean, making a game just to be edgy seems a bit juvenile. However, given the recent blow back from the strident woke crowd and zealot weirdo Christians I'm happy if people want to make shit just to piss them off. Nothing wrong with some obnoxious humor and satire just to rattle the cage every now and then. That's why we need LoTFP and Jame's Raggi, etc. Alas, we can no longer rely on WFRP anymore.
Oh gawds yas this. I've been so baffled by the constant sjw claim that they know people who were hurt by the depiction of orcs or drow.....and I'm like in what way? But no satisfactory answers. How has Daniel Kwan been hurt by Oriental Adventures? I've never found an answer. I'm gonna sound like a green blooded vulcan but.....it's so illogical.
It's utter nonsense... People's fee fees hurt by orcs. Those people are clearly not right in the head, or are looking for a bogus cause they can 'champion'. It's a completely made up narrative. Orcs are not black people or any other minorities. Their savagery is based on the book (or games) plot only. Basically, being set up as the bad guys.
Daniel Kwon, the epic oxygen thief, is clearly a waste of atoms. His arguments are as ridiculous as his man-bun.
What I love about these people is, as you've pointed out that there is no evidence at all to prove any of their points. It's all this emotive mumbo jumpo pleading.
Quote from: Jaeger on August 30, 2021, 07:14:06 PM
Quote from: Squidi on August 30, 2021, 03:33:09 PM
Judging, criticizing, and ultimately changing Japanese works solely from the perspective of an American is... we need a word that means the opposite of "cultural appropriation"... Cultural oppression, maybe? Cultural colonization? Nonconsensual cultural penetration?
"Cultural Sanitization" would be how I would put it...
Quote from: Squidi on August 30, 2021, 04:11:36 PM
...
The only defense for an edgy work like the Goblin Slayer TTRPG existing is that it is good. RPGnet can ban discussion about it all they want, but if it is good, people will still find it and they will enjoy it (maybe even despite prejudices against it), and the censorship becomes toothless.
One can argue that they don't like Goblin Slayer, but it is quite popular and well liked. It gets highly rated and has a high involvement rate among fans. I've seen it recommended often (even among forums where discussion of it is banned). It's had multiple successful spinoffs (including the TTRPG - localizing a Japanese RPG is rather uncommon, if not unprecedented). All the censorship of all the purple forums in the world won't make a dent in this.
And that's what angers them the most. That there is a substantial market for Goblin Slayer and there's nothing they can do about it... except, perhaps, making it seem even more desirable through their disapproval.
Very much This.
As proven in this thread, when it comes to its alleged 'Edgyness' - it is no more edgy than The Game of Thrones tv series...
The censoring of all things GS in the RPG community is over-the-top when you take an objective look at its actual content.
Why does Goblin Slayer seems to be singled out for a special level of visceral hate?
Ok kids, uncle Jaeger is about to go off of the deep end again - Prepare yourselves...
*adjusts Tin-Foil Hat that knows no limit*
Just look at the GS 'adventuring party':
(https://image.photocnc.com/aoaodcom/2020-03/04/202003040718458ed2dd4c24578b3e409cacb2bc78dbab.jpg.h400.jpg)
You have a lizard man (which no one bats an eye at), old due with a ponytail and ear plugs, Elf girl, Priestess girl, and a dude in armor.
With nonsense worldbuilding, Cutesy Anime art, a gender and racially diverse adventuring party; On the surface, Goblin Slayer ticks all the right boxes for a new-school Woke Anime & RPG!
The cool kids should be eating this up!
And I'm willing to bet that at a first glance many of them wanted to.
After all, Slayers are cool right? Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Goblin Slayer, 'i's' dotted and 'T's' crossed; From the name of the series to the composition of the main cast, this one sure looks like a made for SJW fandom winner! Right!
Right?
But then:
BOOYAKASHA BITCHES!
(https://ytimg.googleusercontent.com/vi/uXO-hWUdJYY/mqdefault.jpg)
Expectations. Subverted. Motherfuckers.
They love to dish it out, but...
They really, really, really, have a hard time choking it down when it comes back the other way...
IMHO - The fact that Goblin Slayer didn't do any of this intentionally just makes their reaction all the more ridiculous.
Greetings!
Fucking GREAT! I love it! The subverted expectations! *laughing* The surprised look of horror...the sobbing...oh my god...*Laughing*
Let the PLUNDERING BEGIN!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 31, 2021, 07:06:23 AM
It's utter nonsense... People's fee fees hurt by orcs. Those people are clearly not right in the head, or are looking for a bogus cause they can 'champion'. It's a completely made up narrative.
It's a form of emotional manipulation designed to give them a moral dominance over the debate. You can't argue against them, because that would be arguing against minorities or something.
For me, the real problem is where they invent problems where none exist, not to give them a sense of superiority, but as a way to insert themselves into discussions and properties that otherwise would not give them the time of day. "The Problem With Apu" isn't about Apu, much less the Simpsons. It's about the guy who made the documentary (who even puts his face on the poster). He uses his grievance to piggyback on the popularity and success of the Simpsons, because otherwise, nobody would notice him or his documentaries - what terrifies him at night is obscurity.
There is not a problem with orcs. There is a problem with the people who say there is a problem with orcs. Even they don't believe their own malarky. Yes, it makes them look crazy. Yes, everybody thinks they are full of crap. But it's too late. At the point you are noticing that Daniel Kwon exists, he's already accomplished his goal.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on August 30, 2021, 11:55:25 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 30, 2021, 07:07:50 PM
As for people being edge lords just for the sake of it. I think is pretty rare these days in 2020. And now, in horror/violent games there is nearly always a big chunk on player's safety and fee fees. I'm a bit cynical for that myself, as I don't think any 'normal person' can be 'damaged' by an imaginary RPG. And if they can, it might be better that they took some responsibility and played games that they could handle. If you decide to play Kult or CoC and the GM tells you that it's for mature people with 18+ content, then I'm sorry, but you got the memo...
I mean, making a game just to be edgy seems a bit juvenile. However, given the recent blow back from the strident woke crowd and zealot weirdo Christians I'm happy if people want to make shit just to piss them off. Nothing wrong with some obnoxious humor and satire just to rattle the cage every now and then. That's why we need LoTFP and Jame's Raggi, etc. Alas, we can no longer rely on WFRP anymore.
Oh gawds yas this. I've been so baffled by the constant sjw claim that they know people who were hurt by the depiction of orcs or drow.....and I'm like in what way? But no satisfactory answers. How has Daniel Kwan been hurt by Oriental Adventures? I've never found an answer. I'm gonna sound like a green blooded vulcan but.....it's so illogical.
I think people who say that are just liars. If Oriental Adventures hurt Danial Kwan, then the Shaw Brothers literally decapitated him.
Quote from: Squidi on August 31, 2021, 11:18:51 AM
There is not a problem with orcs. There is a problem with the people who say there is a problem with orcs. Even they don't believe their own malarky. Yes, it makes them look crazy. Yes, everybody thinks they are full of crap. But it's too late. At the point you are noticing that Daniel Kwon exists, he's already accomplished his goal.
Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head. He's known now.
Quote from: oggsmash on August 31, 2021, 11:21:53 AM
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on August 30, 2021, 11:55:25 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 30, 2021, 07:07:50 PM
As for people being edge lords just for the sake of it. I think is pretty rare these days in 2020. And now, in horror/violent games there is nearly always a big chunk on player's safety and fee fees. I'm a bit cynical for that myself, as I don't think any 'normal person' can be 'damaged' by an imaginary RPG. And if they can, it might be better that they took some responsibility and played games that they could handle. If you decide to play Kult or CoC and the GM tells you that it's for mature people with 18+ content, then I'm sorry, but you got the memo...
I mean, making a game just to be edgy seems a bit juvenile. However, given the recent blow back from the strident woke crowd and zealot weirdo Christians I'm happy if people want to make shit just to piss them off. Nothing wrong with some obnoxious humor and satire just to rattle the cage every now and then. That's why we need LoTFP and Jame's Raggi, etc. Alas, we can no longer rely on WFRP anymore.
Oh gawds yas this. I've been so baffled by the constant sjw claim that they know people who were hurt by the depiction of orcs or drow.....and I'm like in what way? But no satisfactory answers. How has Daniel Kwan been hurt by Oriental Adventures? I've never found an answer. I'm gonna sound like a green blooded vulcan but.....it's so illogical.
I think people who say that are just liars. If Oriental Adventures hurt Danial Kwan, then the Shaw Brothers literally decapitated him.
Yeah, very true... I see a lot of these woksters just virtue signalling so they can gain a bit of a following, and then wheedle themselves into the industry. Mind you, it worked for little Dani Kwon.
Worth a watch in case you missed it, on the Legion of Myth's YT channel they obliterated their arguments against Oriental Adventures. They also offered to debate the little man bun, but he ran to the hills and blocked all the 'nasty men'. LOL
I don't have any respect or time for someone who spouts out claims, but refuses to hear any counter points to their argument.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 31, 2021, 01:01:48 PM
Worth a watch in case you missed it, on the Legion of Myth's YT channel they obliterated their arguments against Oriental Adventures. They also offered to debate the little man bun, but he ran to the hills and blocked all the 'nasty men'. LOL
I don't have any respect or time for someone who spouts out claims, but refuses to hear any counter points to their argument.
oh, didn't know that. I'll look em up.
Quote from: Squidi on August 31, 2021, 11:18:51 AM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 31, 2021, 07:06:23 AM
It's utter nonsense... People's fee fees hurt by orcs. Those people are clearly not right in the head, or are looking for a bogus cause they can 'champion'. It's a completely made up narrative.
It's a form of emotional manipulation designed to give them a moral dominance over the debate. You can't argue against them, because that would be arguing against minorities or something.
For me, the real problem is where they invent problems where none exist, not to give them a sense of superiority, but as a way to insert themselves into discussions and properties that otherwise would not give them the time of day. "The Problem With Apu" isn't about Apu, much less the Simpsons. It's about the guy who made the documentary (who even puts his face on the poster). He uses his grievance to piggyback on the popularity and success of the Simpsons, because otherwise, nobody would notice him or his documentaries - what terrifies him at night is obscurity.
There is not a problem with orcs. There is a problem with the people who say there is a problem with orcs. Even they don't believe their own malarky. Yes, it makes them look crazy. Yes, everybody thinks they are full of crap. But it's too late. At the point you are noticing that Daniel Kwon exists, he's already accomplished his goal.
Exactly man... It's this emotive and disingenuous rhetoric thrown about in order to gain sympathy for a 'cause'. Don't have a proper cause to defend? Lets make one up, like orcs, and then make a disingenuous connection to muh' racism.
Indeed, the problem is not with the imaginary orcs but with the oxygen thieves who make up these imaginary 'demons'. And when you ask for the facts to back any of it up you get nothing tangible. A perfect example of this was when Box Car pointed to a study of how bad men were (in Asia). But what has that study got to do with violence in RPGs, Western men, and women being mistreated? NOTHING!!! :(
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on August 31, 2021, 01:12:41 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 31, 2021, 01:01:48 PM
Worth a watch in case you missed it, on the Legion of Myth's YT channel they obliterated their arguments against Oriental Adventures. They also offered to debate the little man bun, but he ran to the hills and blocked all the 'nasty men'. LOL
I don't have any respect or time for someone who spouts out claims, but refuses to hear any counter points to their argument.
oh, didn't know that. I'll look em up.
It's a great channel. The main dude, I can't remember his name at the moment, is as sharp as a blade and takes no fucking prisoners. And his wife is Japanese, so he knows a lot about the culture. :)
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 31, 2021, 01:14:09 PMExactly man... It's this emotive and disingenuous rhetoric thrown about in order to gain sympathy for a 'cause'. Don't have a proper cause to defend? Lets make one up, like orcs, and then make a disingenuous connection to muh' racism.
These arguments only work on the fence sitters. The "agnostics", if you will. People who haven't committed one way or the other can still be swayed - if not completely to one side, at least to the point where they rush to the defense of the ones that appear to be victims.
They find people who look for... not conformity, but more like harmony. They create discord precisely because it is uncomfortable for this segment of people, but they say, "look, it's not being a jerk. I'm the victim of the real jerks". And the fence sitters look at the cause and go, I guess that kind of does look like a problem. Rape is a real problem and maybe we shouldn't support works that endorse or trivialize it (ignoring the fact that Goblin Slayer is anything but pro-rape - it is literally a fate worse than death in the novels)
If you look at the things that really get under the skin of the purple forum crowd, it's stuff like Goblin Slayer and Rising of the Shield Hero - not harder stuff like Berserk or Interspecies Reviewers. The reason is because Goblin Slayer is a threat to them is precisely because it can speak directly to the fence sitting crowd. It is kind of fence sitting itself (edgy, but not too edgy, and noteworthy beyond its edginess). They have to play up the sins of Goblin Slayer to scare off normies from trying it, because if they try it and like it, the entire narrative collapses.
Similarly, The Problem With Apu was not created for diehard Simpsons fans, and Daniel Kwan was not speaking to D&D grognards. NetFlix's adaptation of Cowboy Bebop is not made for people who have watched Cowboy Bebop. The new Saint's Row is not being made for fans of the previous games. Anita Sarkesian's Tropes Against Women was not made for gamers.
All these things are squarely targeted towards the cultural agnostics - the fence sitters who have no stake in the argument, but who are willing to retweet on behalf of it.
Quote from: Squidi on August 30, 2021, 04:11:36 PM
The only defense for an edgy work like the Goblin Slayer TTRPG existing is that it is good.
You say it is good because it is profitable/popular. To that I say:
Captain Marvel and
Twilight.
Quote from: Squidi on August 31, 2021, 01:39:24 PM
Rape is a real problem and maybe we shouldn't support works that endorse or trivialize it (ignoring the fact that Goblin Slayer is anything but pro-rape - it is literally a fate worse than death in the novels)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect you're misunderstanding the arguments being made by the SJWs here (which is fair, they don't articulate it well). GS, like a lot of fiction actually and particularly grimdark/grimderp fiction, uses rape purely for shock value in a gratuitous and exploitative fashion. It doesn't change any hearts or minds on the topic of rape (we already know it's bad, we don't need to be told twice), and in fact may very well contribute further to the prevalence of already pernicious pervasive harmful rape myths: in this case, that rape is only ever committed by roving rape gangs, only ever against women and girls, and that the victims are left damaged goods forever, all of which is emphatically not the case in real life. These myths are pervasive in real life and contribute to the continued stigmatization of survivors in real life.
Altho
Redo of Healer is worse. While I give it credit for defying common myths by making the male protagonist a rape survivor who is abused by those in a position of trust, it immediately goes completely off the deep end of poor taste by having him use his trauma as an excuse to become a serial killer/torturer/rapist/mind-rapist. The script still treats him as the hero thru all this and expects us to sympathize with him. No, it's not supposed to a tragedy, this is a genuine wish-fulfillment story. It's like
I Spit on Your Grave except instead of killing her rapists the heroine tortured and mutilated them for a while, used magic to heal their injuries, brainwashed them into fucking each other, made them her harem and pegged them with cactuses whenever she felt bored. As an abusee myself who had to be talked down from attempting to murder my abuser (who totally deserved it btw), I find this not only disgusting but personally offensive and not remotely cathartic or empowering.
This sort of flippant and exploitative treatment of abuse is churned out by the truckloads all the time. None of this endorses rape, no, but it definitely trivializes it. It's the equivalent of writing anti-Semitic fiction in a world where the Holocaust never ended and was artificially extended by the Nazis breeding Jews on farms specifically for the purpose of torturing them and posting it to PornHub. Except we do live in a world where sex trafficking, rape, female infanticide, etc are huge global problems. At the very least the grimderp fiction is tone-deaf.
I'm almost done with the second light novel and came across this passage:
"The goblins never thought for a second that they were attacking the adventurers.
It was they who were under attack. Goblins saw themselves as victims in all things, and so it was everyone else's fault if the goblins fought back."
Maybe the real reason why Goblin Slayer is disliked by SJWs is that it hits too close for home?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 31, 2021, 03:32:28 PMYou say it is good because it is profitable/popular. To that I say: Captain Marvel and Twilight.
It's more like, because it is good, it has an audience. With enough marketing, you can force anything to appear popular. Captain Marvel was certainly omnipresent at the time, but since then, it rarely gets mentioned in a positive light. Literally nobody is looking forward to Captain Marvel 2 (which is why it isn't named after Captain Marvel anymore), while lots of people are still reading the Goblin Slayer novels and looking forward to a second season.
QuoteGS, like a lot of fiction actually and particularly grimdark/grimderp fiction, uses rape purely for shock value in a gratuitous and exploitative fashion.
I'd argue that Goblin Slayer is doing exactly the opposite. There's absolutely nothing gratuitous or exploitative about the rape in Goblin Slayer (at least, as far as I've read so far). Its very presence is what people are objecting too, regardless of how relevant or important it is to the plot, characters, and world building. There is no amount of rape that is acceptable to them.
Quotein this case, that rape is only ever committed by roving rape gangs, only ever against women and girls, and that the victims are left damaged goods forever, all of which is emphatically not the case in real life. These myths are pervasive in real life and contribute to the continued stigmatization of survivors in real life.
It is how the goblins propagate their species, though procreation is just one aspect of the rape. They are also extremely evil creatures that take sadistic pleasure in the horrors they commit (which makes it justifiable that GS would feel no remorse in killing them, even goblin children). Calling them rape gangs undersells the pure evil of these creatures. They are self centered hedonism personified. Desire without restraint.
As for the damaged goods part, the goblins don't exactly stop at rape. The Sword Maiden, who is admitted damaged from her experiences, has scars all over her body and her eyes were burned to near blindness by torches. Her character is one of the world's heroes, having stopped the resurrection of the demon lord. She's the head of law and justice in the frontier, and a very powerful and respected woman. She purposefully hides her damage from others, partly because they wouldn't understand (which is why she confides in GS), but also because she is ashamed and impure. This makes her a much more three dimensional character than a typical quest giver, and gives her betrayal of the adventurers a tragic gravitas.
I understand that she will continue to show up in further novels, and is even featured in a prequel novel series, and to be perfectly honest, she is a tragic character than can hold the weight of a story without it being exploitative or gratuitous. She is a much more interesting character than, say, Priestess, who has thus far largely taken the role of Watson to GS' Holmes (to be fair, she is shown working to overcome the trauma of her first encounter with goblins, and has gained a quiet strength in her attempts to catch up to GS).
QuoteAltho Redo of Healer is worse.
I agree. It did not seem to have the tragic strength of Goblin Slayer, nor the frustrating pathos of Rising of Shield Hero. I felt it reveled a bit too much in its sadism, and I admit that I didn't stick around more than a few episodes.
QuoteNone of this endorses rape, no, but it definitely trivializes it.
I could not disagree more, at least as far as Goblin Slayer is concerned. Many of the characters are traumatized by goblins on a deep psychological level, and it manifests in very different way. GS's trauma is completely internalized, and he's lost the ability to see anything beyond his vengeance (at least, until he joined an adventuring party). Priestess would probably be broken by her experience, if not for her hero worship of GS giving her the strength to keep going and an example to follow (it is similar for the girl in the GS movie). Sword Maiden keeps it as a hidden weakness, while the rest of the world admires her strength and what she represents.
They are all touched by trauma and deal with it in different ways. But none of them are defeated by it. It is something they carry with them at all times. In many ways, it defines them. It has certainly changed them, fundamentally and forever. But at the same time, they don't succumb to it. They are, in fact, both made weaker and stronger by it.
How does that trivialize their trauma? It is taken quite seriously. It is never something they just overcome during a commercial break or which is forgotten about between episodes. Nor is it ever something that happens to them on a whim or in a contrived way to move the plot forward artificially, or fill the screen time with a quota of ripped bodices. It is established early on as a consequence of living in a world with goblins, and not taking them seriously as a threat.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 31, 2021, 03:32:28 PMGS, like a lot of fiction actually and particularly grimdark/grimderp fiction, uses rape purely for shock value in a gratuitous and exploitative fashion.
Yes. Id say without that Rape scene, the show is largely generic NOTHING. Its on the pile of trash like Shield hero, 'The time I woke up naked in a monster high school!?'.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 31, 2021, 01:18:10 PM
It's a great channel. The main dude, I can't remember his name at the moment, is as sharp as a blade and takes no fucking prisoners. And his wife is Japanese, so he knows a lot about the culture. :)
Oh my gosh. Thanks for the tip. I'm loving these guys. I loved when he asked his wife if Oriental Adventures offended her and she's like....nah. LOL
Quote from: Squidi on August 31, 2021, 11:18:51 AM
It's a form of emotional manipulation designed to give them a moral dominance over the debate. You can't argue against them, because that would be arguing against minorities or something.
For me, the real problem is where they invent problems where none exist, not to give them a sense of superiority, but as a way to insert themselves into discussions and properties that otherwise would not give them the time of day. "The Problem With Apu" isn't about Apu, much less the Simpsons. It's about the guy who made the documentary (who even puts his face on the poster). He uses his grievance to piggyback on the popularity and success of the Simpsons, because otherwise, nobody would notice him or his documentaries - what terrifies him at night is obscurity.
There is not a problem with orcs. There is a problem with the people who say there is a problem with orcs. Even they don't believe their own malarky. Yes, it makes them look crazy. Yes, everybody thinks they are full of crap. But it's too late. At the point you are noticing that Daniel Kwon exists, he's already accomplished his goal.
You speak common sense. I agree with this.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on August 31, 2021, 08:22:23 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 31, 2021, 03:32:28 PMGS, like a lot of fiction actually and particularly grimdark/grimderp fiction, uses rape purely for shock value in a gratuitous and exploitative fashion.
Yes. Id say without that Rape scene, the show is largely generic NOTHING. Its on the pile of trash like Shield hero, 'The time I woke up naked in a monster high school!?'.
Yes. Aside from the controversial content, they're generic and tropey as fuck. 99% of anime/manga/light novels is utter interchangeable tripe. I don't trust fansite rating systems because actual torture-porn like Redo of Healer gets a 6/10.
Torture-porn with no redeeming values is considered "average" by anime standards. [insert reference to Event Horizon where Lawrence Fishburn says "we're leaving" after seeing the video of the Event Horizon crew going to literal hell.]
I've given up on watching/reading anything from Japan unless I feel masochistic and want to metaphorically stab myself in the eyes. I don't have time to swim naked through an ocean of shit to find what few gemstones that exist.
I honestly don't understand how so many people can think all this tripe is genuinely good. Have the SJWs really poisoned pop culture so much that people have become desperate enough to prop up this tripe? Or has humanity always been this tasteless and I just didn't notice?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 31, 2021, 10:20:24 PMYes. Aside from the controversial content, they're generic and tropey as fuck.
Yes. And tropy in a super dull way.
QuoteTorture-porn with no redeeming values is considered "average" by anime standards.
I would have defended against this qoute like 10 years ago, but with how popular the Reincarnation genre is in recent years and the general decline in quality I would say this is now a accurate qoute.
QuoteI honestly don't understand how so many people can think all this tripe is genuinely good. Have the SJWs really poisoned pop culture so much that people have become desperate enough to prop up this tripe? Or has humanity always been this tasteless and I just didn't notice?
Humanity as a whole is utterly tasteless. And for some people the answer is yes.
But for many people Id say this became a sort of 'line in the sand last refuge'.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 31, 2021, 10:20:24 PM
I've given up on watching/reading anything from Japan unless I feel masochistic and want to metaphorically stab myself in the eyes. I don't have time to swim naked through an ocean of shit to find what few gemstones that exist.
A strange, unnecessarily hostile opinion, if I must say. Personally, I don't like to close doors of opportunity through sheer exertion of my own ignorance, but hey, you do you.
QuoteI honestly don't understand how so many people can think all this tripe is genuinely good.
I would have no problem sitting here, writing at extreme length about why I think it is genuinely good - but something tells me that your ears are as closed as your mind, so it would be a wasted effort.
But for the others who are curious, I'll at least say one thing. Having been a writer of tropey fantasy cliches myself, one of the hardest things to write is catharsis (just like the hardest comedy to write is a farce, which is itself, a comedic catharsis). It is something that requires structural support throughout the entire work, building upon emotional Checkov's Guns that have been subtlety worked into the journey. If you do it right, the reader doesn't even recognize that it is going on. It just manifests itself as a longing that they can't quite put their finger on. A gnawing hunger in their soul that demands something, but they don't know what. When done well, you don't even realize it until that perfect event happens that brings down the whole house of cards in a single masterstroke, creating a powerful emotional release as the weight you didn't even know existed has lifted.
The way that I know that Goblin Slayer is not a lazy work is because, in the two novels I've read so far, both have ended with, what I would consider, fairly effective cathartic moments. These are not things you can fake, or stumble upon accidentally. They must be carefully built up, if they are to be effective. The author must recognize things about the characters that goes through their exterior, to their very cores. And the characters must have cores in the first place.
Now, for my money, Astro City is the masterclass in catharsis, though there's certainly others I highly respect for it (like One Piece or Great Teacher Onizuka). Goblin Slayer doesn't quite elevate itself to that level. But it tries, and it doesn't fail. That's more than I can say about a great many works of fiction.
Most Western fiction these days considers victory itself to be satisfaction alone, even when the victory is unearned, or when it has no purpose or value to the characters. Captain Marvel, for example, acts like a super villain during the last act of her movie, but we are supposed to cheer her fighting dirty and mocking her underdog enemies because... what? She's the main character? The lesson is that true power is the power to crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the women - feel free to use your godlike powers trivially, hatefully, and with excessive pettiness, for with great power comes no responsibility
Goblin Slayer is smart enough to realize that the emotional crux of the story is never just victory over the goblins. In the first book, it is about GS no longer being an outsider, and in the second book, it is about the Sword Maiden having someone who, finally, will save her from her own fear. I thought these scenes were quite effective, and made a quality exclamation point on the end of a fun journey.
I should also say that while I watched the anime a while ago, I'm reading the novels now with the knowledge that the TTRPG is coming out. It has made the world building a bit more explicit than it probably would've been otherwise, as I'm actively looking out for it. There is more to the GS world than is suggested by the anime.
I wonder what these pearl-clutching types think of Gate.
Quote from: Squidi on August 31, 2021, 11:49:51 PMThe way that I know that Goblin Slayer is not a lazy work is because, in the two novels I've read so far, both have ended with, what I would consider, fairly effective cathartic moments.
I would say eating a big-mac can be pretty satisfying, and as a whole the thing is a masterwork of culinary engineering, balancing price, with taste, with accessibility.
But outside of the short-term catharcis, the thing is horribly bad for you. Thats my opinion on the new slew of anime, and the whole isekai trend.
I get it, the west has been moving to shut down any source of just enjoyment that isn't propaganda puff pieces. But I find this trend of just carnal power fantasy just as worrying a counter-cultural force.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 01, 2021, 07:40:20 AM
I wonder what these pearl-clutching types think of Gate.
Them pearl clutching doesn't make Gate any less of a JSDF wankfest.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on September 01, 2021, 08:26:09 AM
Quote from: Squidi on August 31, 2021, 11:49:51 PMThe way that I know that Goblin Slayer is not a lazy work is because, in the two novels I've read so far, both have ended with, what I would consider, fairly effective cathartic moments.
I would say eating a big-mac can be pretty satisfying, and as a whole the thing is a masterwork of culinary engineering, balancing price, with taste, with accessibility.
But outside of the short-term catharcis, the thing is horribly bad for you. Thats my opinion on the new slew of anime, and the whole isekai trend.
I get it, the west has been moving to shut down any source of just enjoyment that isn't propaganda puff pieces. But I find this trend of just carnal power fantasy just as worrying a counter-cultural force.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 01, 2021, 07:40:20 AM
I wonder what these pearl-clutching types think of Gate.
Them pearl clutching doesn't make Gate any less of a JSDF wankfest.
I'll take JSDF wanking over retarded SJW behavior any day.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 01, 2021, 09:18:24 AMI'll take JSDF wanking over retarded SJW behavior any day.
Id rather just not read wank. =P
I find myself rather underserved.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on September 01, 2021, 08:26:09 AMI would say eating a big-mac can be pretty satisfying, and as a whole the thing is a masterwork of culinary engineering, balancing price, with taste, with accessibility.
But outside of the short-term catharcis, the thing is horribly bad for you. Thats my opinion on the new slew of anime, and the whole isekai trend.
Well, for one, Goblin Slayer isn't isekai. It's traditional fantasy. And there's nothing wrong with the isekai genre itself, though it has been overplayed by ten. For instance, So I'm a Spider, So What? and Konosuba are really good. And drawing its origins back to Alice in Wonderland and Wizard of Oz, the genre has longer legs than the current trends would suggest.
Second, I'm not arguing that anybody must like Goblin Slayer. My response was against the more objective arguments that it is lazy, poorly written, or overly cliched. Whether you like what is being offered versus what's being offered being objectively poor quality is two very different stances.
QuoteI get it, the west has been moving to shut down any source of just enjoyment that isn't propaganda puff pieces. But I find this trend of just carnal power fantasy just as worrying a counter-cultural force.
Goblin Slayer is in the tradition of highly respected and influential works such as Conan, Berserk, and Mad Max. The character of Goblin Slayer himself reminds me of Harmonica from Once Upon a Time in the West, which is one of my favorite movies.
All these works feature incredibly hostile worlds, which all the normal characters struggle to survive in. Success is impossible, and even survival seems unlikely. Enter the lone outsider, someone born and bred in war, who gave up his humanity a long time ago in pursuit of (usually) vengeance. Conan's strength comes from his abandonment of civilization, trading culture for pure animal power. Through this outsider's strength, these other characters gain the strength to not just survive, but also succeed.
Calling it a "carnal power fantasy" is missing the point of the work. Goblin Slayer isn't doing the raping, and his murdering of goblins is so workmanlike and pragmatic that there is no glory in it. Instead, he represents a single source of strength that allows the other characters to move forward. Even though his mission is simple and unchanging, his presence allows others move past their traumas, to overcome their hostile environment, and possibly for the first time, start thinking about a better tomorrow.
But, like I said, I'm not going to force anybody to enjoy it. I just think that people who write it off because of the presence of rape and violence to be missing the point. It may be that they never care to get the point, but their unwillingness to let others be content in their enjoyment of the work compels me to answer their attacks.
Quote from: Squidi on September 01, 2021, 11:11:07 AMWell, for one, Goblin Slayer isn't isekai. It's traditional fantasy.
The reincranation part of modern isekai are some of the least important parts about it. In general their protagonists are generic slatey (though generally misanthropic) in order for maximum self-insert.
This isn't Labyrinth where the takeaway is for some level of self-growth outside of the fantasy. Its not even Bookworm (which does get OP as fuck eventually), where outsider information is used for at least some level of drama (even if it goes nowhere).
Its not even John Carter of mars where at least the guy has a level of independant personality.
The Goblin slayer by being that generic empty slot may as well be an Isekai protagonist, just without those 5 minutes in the 'real word' set up.
QuoteGoblin Slayer is in the tradition of highly respected and influential works such as Conan, Berserk, and Mad Max.
Just like a Big Mac is in some shape and way related to the tradition of a burger made of quality beef and made at home. Im not a snob that will always look down at a burger. And I will eat at McDs sometimes. But there is a MILE of difference in quality.
Maybe the Light Novel is better (I HIGHLY doubt it considering SOA, and the general truth that most japanese light novels are garbage trash), but the anime is just generic self-insert stuff.
Anime fans (and LN fans) as a whole tend to overhype really shlocky writing out of somekind of embarassment:
'Oh so you see when the love interest goes topless it represents her willingness to use her nudity powers to the fullest finally overcoming the stigma her mother placed on her.
Its actually a metacomentary on sexuality. Not fanservice first that then tries to justify itself in-universe.Reminds me of this:
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on September 01, 2021, 03:07:27 PM
The reincranation part of modern isekai are some of the least important parts about it. In general their protagonists are generic slatey (though generally misanthropic) in order for maximum self-insert.
Isekai literally means "other world". Reincarnation is not strictly necessary, but traveling to a separate dimension/world is for it to belong to that genre. Goblin Slayer has (as far as I've read) no elements/knowledge outside of its self-contained fantasy universe. It's just basic fantasy.
QuoteThe Goblin slayer by being that generic empty slot may as well be an Isekai protagonist, just without those 5 minutes in the 'real word' set up.
I think you'll find that the isekai genre actually has quite a few varieties of protagonist (including a literal vending machine). Most of the tropes in the recent fad (including reincarnation) seem to come directly from the web novel Mushoku Tensei. Now that's a power fantasy of an average guy who gets reborn into a fantasy universe who uses his external knowledge and mad gamer skills to min-max the system to defeat demon lords and build harems. Most of the isekai genre is a variation on that theme, only mixing it up when it comes to protagonists.
Goblin Slayer couldn't be further from that. Goblin Slayer was written by an avid Dungeons & Dragons player (Steve Jackson, Ian Livingstone, Dave Arneson, and Gary Gygax were even thanked in the author's notes) rather than a web novelist following trends or trying to translate their favorite iPhone gatcha game. There are many loving references to western fantasy (the elf archer repeatedly quotes Arthur C. Clarke, a burglar gives GS a riddle of "what's in my pocket") with the second book being a tribute to the kinds of mega dungeons you'd find in an RPG (they even fight a beholder). The author is one of us. His influences are our touchstones.
QuoteAnime fans (and LN fans) as a whole tend to overhype really shlocky writing out of somekind of embarassment: 'Oh so you see when the love interest goes topless it represents her willingness to use her nudity powers to the fullest finally overcoming the stigma her mother placed on her.
Outside of what is essentially the first scene in the first book (which is much tamer in the book than the anime and especially manga), there's no "onscreen" sex or rape. Instead, there are broken people that went through similar experiences, but it is always danced around and never explicitly shown. It's hard to say that it is gratuitous when it always happens off screen, often long before the heroes arrive.
That being said, hating things is easy. Someone who can only call things trash has no opinions worth listening to. Perhaps the anime fan's defense is little more than sophistry, but I'd much rather listen to the impassioned defense of something that inspires such passion rather than the boorish derision of an edgy teenager who can only define themselves in opposition to what is currently popular.
Quote from: Squidi on September 01, 2021, 04:42:34 PMIsekai literally means "other world".
Don't patronize me. Just because I dislike the direction the genre and industry is going in doesn't mean I don't 'watch enough' of this crap.
Isekai has become a slang term and a insult because of how trashy as a whole the genre is.
Goblin Slayer lacks reincarnation or otherworldy portals, but im saying that most modern isekai really don't take advantage of that stuff ANYWAY. Its like a Porno. The real reason your there is for the power fantasy crap. The stuff that orbits around it is generally table-dressing.
Goblin Slayer may not be haxxored, but he is the only compitent guy in the universe in regard to goblins, and so everybody else must be an idiot to make it all about how fuckin badass he is. And everybody must constantly heap praise on him, and the women must all be enamored with him. And anybody that hates him must be proven wrong or be punished by the end.
QuoteI think you'll find that the isekai genre actually has quite a few varieties of protagonist (including a literal vending machine).
Generally gimmicks or the minority. They have a tendency to become waifu trapshit over time regardless.
QuoteGoblin Slayer couldn't be further from that.
It really isn't. I could say its further away from that, but FURTHEST?
QuoteHis influences are our touchstones.
So what. Id say he took the shallowest elements from all the touchstones and made a shallow product from it.
QuoteOutside of what is essentially the first scene in the first book (which is much tamer in the book than the anime and especially manga), there's no "onscreen" sex or rape. Instead, there are broken people that went through similar experiences, but it is always danced around and never explicitly shown.
This is exactly what I mean by hyping mediocrity wrapped in justification.
'Me fucking your corpse (Or sleeping naked whatever) is totally wrapped in my backstory. For real! Its not cringeworthy because its deep and shit!'QuotePerhaps the anime fan's defense is little more than sophistry, but I'd much rather listen to the impassioned defense of something that inspires such passion rather than the boorish derision of an edgy teenager who can only define themselves in opposition to what is currently popular.
Ah the classic
'You only dislike it because your a meenie/you only hate it because its popular/you must hate EVERYTHING' defense, I was wondering when that was gonna pop up.
Anyway In conclusion I think Goblin Slayer is garbage, but its garbage that deserves the same rights as everything else.
I just pre-ordered. Says it should be out sometime in April.
https://smile.amazon.com/Goblin-Slayer-Tabletop-Roleplaying-Game/dp/1975318315/
Last update I had seen from Yen Press was a release date of February 2022, but seeing your post had me go to their site to double check and they are now saying 04/19/22.
https://yenpress.com/9781975318314/goblin-slayer-tabletop-roleplaying-game/
I wonder how long before all the conventions ban people from playing this game.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on August 21, 2021, 10:29:52 AM
It's already a banned topic at TBP.
If it's banned by those bed wetters then it's an instant buy from me.
Honestly, I'm not interested in patronizing a game where the sole selling point is "goblins are raping our women!" It feels tacky and misogynistic.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 17, 2022, 12:54:32 PM
Honestly, I'm not interested in patronizing a game where the sole selling point is "goblins are raping our women!" It feels tacky and misogynistic.
Yeah... But that's not the main selling point, now, is it?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 17, 2022, 12:54:32 PM
Honestly, I'm not interested in patronizing a game where the sole selling point is "goblins are raping our women!" It feels tacky and misogynistic.
If that is what you think is the main selling point of the RPG or even the anime/manga/light novel you have zero clue as to that which you speak.
I've watched the anime and found that it was pretty enjoyable. In no way does the series or the movie glorify rape.
I might pick up the game for the setting background and to just provide support for something that pisses off the woke scolds.
Quote from: lordmalachdrim on January 17, 2022, 01:31:34 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 17, 2022, 12:54:32 PM
Honestly, I'm not interested in patronizing a game where the sole selling point is "goblins are raping our women!" It feels tacky and misogynistic.
If that is what you think is the main selling point of the RPG or even the anime/manga/light novel you have zero clue as to that which you speak.
I tried watching it. The first episode was... repulsive, but I powered thru despite my immediate misgivings. I gave up after the third episode, I think? Aside from the rape, it was bland and generic.
Quote from: jeff37923 on January 17, 2022, 01:56:24 PM
I've watched the anime and found that it was pretty enjoyable. In no way does the series or the movie glorify rape.
I might pick up the game for the setting background and to just provide support for something that pisses off the woke scolds.
Saw doesn't glorify torture either, but it's still torture-porn.
Like most media that depicts rape, GS depicts rape as voyeuristic torture-porn. The victims are voluptuous underage girls (the dialogue says they're 15) who are posed in a manner that shows off their assets. They're raped repeatedly, forced to give birth, flayed alive, and nailed to shields. To say it's repulsive is putting it mildly: This is torture-porn.
I disagree with the wokescolds as much as anyone else, but I'm not going to buy torture-porn to feel good about myself. When I see people get tortured in media, I feel sympathetic pain. Especially when they look they could be my son or daughter. So I don't watch that stuff.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 17, 2022, 03:15:08 PM
The victims are voluptuous underage girls (the dialogue says they're 15) who are posed in a manner that shows off their assets.
You may need to double check your facts on this one because the age of consent in Japan is significantly lower then it is in the US. As such they are not underaged for the culture that this came from. I'm sick and tried of Americans thinking only in terms of their country and culture.
While there is a certain about of exploitation-film style voyeurism, isn't the core point to establish that in setting goblins are utterly, irredeemably evil and their extermination is completely justified?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 17, 2022, 03:15:08 PM
They're raped repeatedly, forced to give birth, flayed alive, and nailed to shields.
Apart from offscreen forced to give birth, I don't recall any of this in the Anime? Is it from the Manga? Or maybe referred to in dialogue?
Quote from: S'mon on January 17, 2022, 05:41:57 PM
Apart from offscreen forced to give birth, I don't recall any of this in the Anime? Is it from the Manga? Or maybe referred to in dialogue?
The anime tones down these elements a bit. The light novels and mangas are a bit, but not tremendously, more graphic.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 17, 2022, 03:15:08 PM
I disagree with the wokescolds as much as anyone else, but I'm not going to buy torture-porn to feel good about myself. When I see people get tortured in media, I feel sympathetic pain. Especially when they look they could be my son or daughter. So I don't watch that stuff.
Pissing christ! What a prude... Feel all the sympathy you want for a graphic novel - It doesn't give a shit, why, because it's not real. Surprise... surprise... no one is getting hurt.
Yeah, more accuracy again. 'Every' single person that buys horror films, and the like, just do it to feel good about themselves. And it's definitely not for 'escapist' entertainment.
Go back to TBH! They'd love your woke censor ass over there. :D
Correction: I don't support censorship because it inevitably leads to totalitarian regimes. That doesn't mean I shouldn't be allowed to criticize, because that's free speech too. Free speech goes both ways.
Anyway. If that's your position on how GS handles rape, then on what grounds can you criticize how DC Comics raped Superman? How are these situations not equivalent?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 17, 2022, 07:40:17 PM
Correction: I don't support censorship because it inevitably leads to totalitarian regimes. That doesn't mean I shouldn't be allowed to criticize, because that's free speech too. Free speech goes both ways.
Anyway. If that's your position on how GS handles rape, then on what grounds can you criticize how DC Comics raped Superman? How are these situations not equivalent?
You can criticize anything you want... That's never the problem. But when you put out bullshit 'false arguments' to defend a position that is not tenable, and then add underhand 'insinuations' like you know how other's think - you are as woke as fuck. Using the exact same tactics without logic, while using that childish emotional black male.
"Ooooh you must be twooly eeevil and support real rape."
Now, what the fuck are you talking about? But please go on and do tell me what 'my personal position on rape' is. And provide links. I'll wait...
More fucking whataboutism bullshit. What the fuck has superman got to do with anything?? I don't read that shit. Furthermore... I couldn't care less if superman was raped with an aircraft carrier with a nuclear submarine strapped to it. It's only a fucking comic!! NO ONE is actually raped or hurt.
It's only fiction.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 17, 2022, 03:15:08 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on January 17, 2022, 01:56:24 PM
I've watched the anime and found that it was pretty enjoyable. In no way does the series or the movie glorify rape.
I might pick up the game for the setting background and to just provide support for something that pisses off the woke scolds.
Saw doesn't glorify torture either, but it's still torture-porn.
Like most media that depicts rape, GS depicts rape as voyeuristic torture-porn. The victims are voluptuous underage girls (the dialogue says they're 15) who are posed in a manner that shows off their assets. They're raped repeatedly, forced to give birth, flayed alive, and nailed to shields. To say it's repulsive is putting it mildly: This is torture-porn.
I disagree with the wokescolds as much as anyone else, but I'm not going to buy torture-porn to feel good about myself. When I see people get tortured in media, I feel sympathetic pain. Especially when they look they could be my son or daughter. So I don't watch that stuff.
I've never seen any of the
SAW movies, they are not my thing, so I won't comment on them.
As far as how
Goblin Slayer the anime depicts rape, there is nothing attractive or titillating about it. It is depicted as a horrible experience done to female adventurers by morally repulsive creatures, it helps to frame the goblins as evil monsters. Now if
Goblin Slayer the RPG has rules for role-playing being raped by goblins at the game table, I'll set the book on fire and proclaim that it is not the kind of game that I want to represent my hobby. Unfortunately, the game book isn't out yet so all of this weeping and wailing from you is without context.
And buddy, if your son or daughter look like anime characters, then you've got more problems than a rape scene in a cartoon.
Quote from: jeff37923 on January 17, 2022, 08:23:33 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 17, 2022, 03:15:08 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on January 17, 2022, 01:56:24 PM
I've watched the anime and found that it was pretty enjoyable. In no way does the series or the movie glorify rape.
I might pick up the game for the setting background and to just provide support for something that pisses off the woke scolds.
Saw doesn't glorify torture either, but it's still torture-porn.
Like most media that depicts rape, GS depicts rape as voyeuristic torture-porn. The victims are voluptuous underage girls (the dialogue says they're 15) who are posed in a manner that shows off their assets. They're raped repeatedly, forced to give birth, flayed alive, and nailed to shields. To say it's repulsive is putting it mildly: This is torture-porn.
I disagree with the wokescolds as much as anyone else, but I'm not going to buy torture-porn to feel good about myself. When I see people get tortured in media, I feel sympathetic pain. Especially when they look they could be my son or daughter. So I don't watch that stuff.
I've never seen any of the SAW movies, they are not my thing, so I won't comment on them.
As far as how Goblin Slayer the anime depicts rape, there is nothing attractive or titillating about it. It is depicted as a horrible experience done to female adventurers by morally repulsive creatures, it helps to frame the goblins as evil monsters. Now if Goblin Slayer the RPG has rules for role-playing being raped by goblins at the game table, I'll set the book on fire and proclaim that it is not the kind of game that I want to represent my hobby. Unfortunately, the game book isn't out yet so all of this weeping and wailing from you is without context.
And buddy, if your son or daughter look like anime characters, then you've got more problems than a rape scene in a cartoon.
I Spit On Your Grave doesn't depict rape as sexy but that doesn't make it not voyeuristic and exploitative. The same applies to GS.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 17, 2022, 10:30:04 PM
I Spit On Your Grave doesn't depict rape as sexy but that doesn't make it not voyeuristic and exploitative. The same applies to GS.
Goblin Slayer episode 1, since AFAICT that's the only time anyone gets raped on-screen.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 17, 2022, 10:30:04 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on January 17, 2022, 08:23:33 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 17, 2022, 03:15:08 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on January 17, 2022, 01:56:24 PM
I've watched the anime and found that it was pretty enjoyable. In no way does the series or the movie glorify rape.
I might pick up the game for the setting background and to just provide support for something that pisses off the woke scolds.
Saw doesn't glorify torture either, but it's still torture-porn.
Like most media that depicts rape, GS depicts rape as voyeuristic torture-porn. The victims are voluptuous underage girls (the dialogue says they're 15) who are posed in a manner that shows off their assets. They're raped repeatedly, forced to give birth, flayed alive, and nailed to shields. To say it's repulsive is putting it mildly: This is torture-porn.
I disagree with the wokescolds as much as anyone else, but I'm not going to buy torture-porn to feel good about myself. When I see people get tortured in media, I feel sympathetic pain. Especially when they look they could be my son or daughter. So I don't watch that stuff.
I've never seen any of the SAW movies, they are not my thing, so I won't comment on them.
As far as how Goblin Slayer the anime depicts rape, there is nothing attractive or titillating about it. It is depicted as a horrible experience done to female adventurers by morally repulsive creatures, it helps to frame the goblins as evil monsters. Now if Goblin Slayer the RPG has rules for role-playing being raped by goblins at the game table, I'll set the book on fire and proclaim that it is not the kind of game that I want to represent my hobby. Unfortunately, the game book isn't out yet so all of this weeping and wailing from you is without context.
And buddy, if your son or daughter look like anime characters, then you've got more problems than a rape scene in a cartoon.
I Spit On Your Grave doesn't depict rape as sexy but that doesn't make it not voyeuristic and exploitative. The same applies to GS.
I've never seen
I Spit On Your Grave, not my thing. When it comes to horror movies for me, I'm more into those that scare then those that shock or cause revulsion. I'm a big Alfred Hitchcock fan.
Quote from: S'mon on January 18, 2022, 12:58:40 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 17, 2022, 10:30:04 PM
I Spit On Your Grave doesn't depict rape as sexy but that doesn't make it not voyeuristic and exploitative. The same applies to GS.
Goblin Slayer episode 1, since AFAICT that's the only time anyone gets raped on-screen.
Pretty much. Though, there may have been another episode where it came up later in the season, but it's been a while since I saw it and my memory is crap, so I can't recall the details. But at least like 90%+ of the anime is rape-free, and mostly about D&D-ish comedic action adventure, and the prevalence of this rape stuff within it has been highly exaggerated by "critics" (i.e. pearl-clutchers and wokescolds).
Quote from: VisionStorm on January 18, 2022, 06:36:05 AM
highly exaggerated by "critics" (i.e. pearl-clutchers and wokescolds).
It's always the way... Tipper Gore syndrome or Mary Whitehouse if you're in the UK.
Same as the wokies: We know what is best for you, and you must all be treated as children because you can't think for yourselves.
Goblin Slayer uses rape a shock factor to attract attention to its rather mundane and un - noteworthy first episode.
Its most certainly exploitative and shlocky trash.
Not worthy of censorship but its a garbage show. I have said that before. And if we want to discuss it further, take it to media.
I kinda like the aspect of Goblin Slayer where its like... little problems that get ignored by "important" or "powerful" people can grow and become a huge problem, so even small problems like goblins should not be ignored or thought of as not important enough to deal with. I have softened a bit on the "goblins are always evil" to a more flexible stance where "goblins can fit what you want in your setting", so yes goblins can be intelligent and have culture if you want in your setting, or they can be savage unintelligent and pure evil, even as young babies, if you want for your setting. I still lean more towards "goblins are always evil" though, and get bored with people who argue for "goblins are always a mixed bag" because I still feel like if you wanted a culture-conflict you could use a PC race instead of a Monster race to make that conflict.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on January 18, 2022, 06:48:06 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on January 18, 2022, 06:36:05 AM
highly exaggerated by "critics" (i.e. pearl-clutchers and wokescolds).
It's always the way... Tipper Gore syndrome or Mary Whitehouse if you're in the UK.
Same as the wokies: We know what is best for you, and you must all be treated as children because you can't think for yourselves.
Greetings!
*Laughing* So true, my friend! All of these do-gooders think they can think for you in every way.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: VisionStorm on January 18, 2022, 06:36:05 AM
... But at least like 90%+ of the anime is rape-free, and mostly about D&D-ish comedic action adventure, and the prevalence of this rape stuff within it has been highly exaggerated by "critics" (i.e. pearl-clutchers and wokescolds).
I'm mildly surprised all this is all still being ragged on (but I probably shouldn't be...) - as shown earlier in the thread: Goblin Slayer (anime and magna) has empirically less rape and nudity than the Game of Thrones Tv series, and books...
The Game of Thrones RPG's were released with
zero controversy.
The pearl-clutchers and wokescolds just have a very visceral level of hate for the Goblin Slayer IP...
Quote from: Jaeger on January 18, 2022, 02:36:13 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on January 18, 2022, 06:36:05 AM
... But at least like 90%+ of the anime is rape-free, and mostly about D&D-ish comedic action adventure, and the prevalence of this rape stuff within it has been highly exaggerated by "critics" (i.e. pearl-clutchers and wokescolds).
I'm mildly surprised all this is all still being ragged on (but I probably shouldn't be...) - as shown earlier in the thread: Goblin Slayer (anime and magna) has empirically less rape and nudity than the Game of Thrones Tv series, and books...
The Game of Thrones RPG's were released with zero controversy.
The pearl-clutchers and wokescolds just have a very visceral level of hate for the Goblin Slayer IP...
Its okay to show humans raping humans. But if you show goblins doing bad things you're a reeeee-acist.
Game if Thrones also had feminist's poo poo it for rape. So get out of your victimhood puddle.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 18, 2022, 03:37:21 PM
Game if Thrones also had feminist's poo poo it for rape. So get out of your victimhood puddle.
For around two weeks tops, then no one gave a shit and forgot about it eventually. No one ever forgets Goblin Slayer or stops exaggerating how bad it supposedly is, even though it isn't.
Quote from: VisionStorm on January 18, 2022, 03:57:35 PMFor around two weeks tops, then no one gave a shit and forgot about it eventually. No one ever forgets Goblin Slayer or stops exaggerating how bad it supposedly is, even though it isn't.
They exaggerated for 2 months before the next season's anime series came out and more clickbait horseshit came to replace it and most people forgot goblin slayer even existed.
At least people remember game of thrones, even if its to say how crap it ended.
Quote from: SHARK on January 18, 2022, 01:28:32 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on January 18, 2022, 06:48:06 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on January 18, 2022, 06:36:05 AM
highly exaggerated by "critics" (i.e. pearl-clutchers and wokescolds).
It's always the way... Tipper Gore syndrome or Mary Whitehouse if you're in the UK.
Same as the wokies: We know what is best for you, and you must all be treated as children because you can't think for yourselves.
Greetings!
*Laughing* So true, my friend! All of these do-gooders think they can think for you in every way.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Hey Shark,
Funny thing is, most of us are old (or middle aged) bastards, who've lived a decent life. Who the hell are they to tell us what we can and can't do? We are not kids, and we are certainly not beholden to any of those woke scold fraggles.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 18, 2022, 04:05:03 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on January 18, 2022, 03:57:35 PMFor around two weeks tops, then no one gave a shit and forgot about it eventually. No one ever forgets Goblin Slayer or stops exaggerating how bad it supposedly is, even though it isn't.
They exaggerated for 2 months before the next season's anime series came out and more clickbait horseshit came to replace it and most people forgot goblin slayer even existed.
At least people remember game of thrones, even if its to say how crap it ended.
To add a bit to this and to be fair they raged about Sheild Hero even louder because it had a galse rape accusation (it also is a pretty mediocre show but thats my critisism). Redo of Healer seems to have gotten less rage despite being the absolute worst of the series mentioned and having the main character be the rapist.
Quote from: Slambo on January 18, 2022, 07:46:41 PMTo add a bit to this and to be fair they raged about Sheild Hero even louder because it had a galse rape accusation (it also is a pretty mediocre show but thats my critisism). Redo of Healer seems to have gotten less rage despite being the absolute worst of the series mentioned and having the main character be the rapist.
Yup, exactly. Each new isekai, or isekai-like needs a new shock factor thing, a new gimmick, and maybe a new fetish, to distinguish itself from the other 65 ones coming out that season.
I liked Drifters, even though its a shlocky, edgy show with reincarnation and has a point where there are prisoners of war that had been raped. But it doesn't follow the formula that every other isekai had followed. So this isn't me being a prude.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 17, 2022, 12:54:32 PM
Honestly, I'm not interested in patronizing a game where the sole selling point is "goblins are raping our women!" It feels tacky and misogynistic.
So again you just parrot the party line instead of actually looking at the material and seeing that isnt the case.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 17, 2022, 03:15:08 PM
Like most media that depicts rape, GS depicts rape as voyeuristic torture-porn. The victims are voluptuous underage girls (the dialogue says they're 15) who are posed in a manner that shows off their assets. They're raped repeatedly, forced to give birth, flayed alive, and nailed to shields. To say it's repulsive is putting it mildly: This is torture-porn.
I disagree with the wokescolds as much as anyone else, but I'm not going to buy torture-porn to feel good about myself. When I see people get tortured in media, I feel sympathetic pain. Especially when they look they could be my son or daughter. So I don't watch that stuff.
And yet you copy-paste their hate screeds ad nausium.
Quote from: Omega on January 20, 2022, 01:22:21 AM
And yet you copy-paste their hate screeds ad nausium.
Indeed he does...
Quote from: lordmalachdrim on January 16, 2022, 09:10:07 PM
Last update I had seen from Yen Press was a release date of February 2022, but seeing your post had me go to their site to double check and they are now saying 04/19/22.
https://yenpress.com/9781975318314/goblin-slayer-tabletop-roleplaying-game/
Sigh... now they have pushed back the release date on Amazon to June 21.
Have you seen those studies that show the Goblin Slayer inspired rapes?
There were huge upticks in rape-crimes all over nowhere.
Quote from: tenbones on January 25, 2022, 11:16:28 AM
Have you seen those studies that show the Goblin Slayer inspired rapes?
There were huge upticks in rape-crimes all over nowhere.
Damn straight, man.
Quote from: tenbones on January 25, 2022, 11:16:28 AM
Have you seen those studies that show the Goblin Slayer inspired rapes?
You got it all wrong, those where inspired RAPS (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_OU2GytpWw)
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 25, 2022, 11:35:01 AM
Quote from: tenbones on January 25, 2022, 11:16:28 AM
Have you seen those studies that show the Goblin Slayer inspired rapes?
You got it all wrong, those where inspired RAPS (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_OU2GytpWw)
Both equally dangerous!
Well...
Tyler, The Creator has a hip-hop album called 'Goblin' and it's full of rape.
We need to get some tax money for a study.
:'( Ugh, cancel everything. Delete All. /sarcasm
To think after Fist of the North Star, Akira, Wicked City, and Ninja Scroll this would be the state of quivering concern across the Pacific thirty years after? :o I blame making playgrounds with safer materials and heights. ;D Oh and those insidious participation award ribbons! >:( Ooooo, so mad! /sarcasm
I just don't believe they can recapture the same lightning in a bottle known as BESM. 8)
Greetings!
Let the cunts sob and cry. People love rape and violence. Look at the MILLIONS of fans of GOT. Rape and violence every fucking week.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Opaopajr on January 25, 2022, 12:49:57 PM
To think after Fist of the North Star, Akira, Wicked City, and Ninja Scroll
Lets not forget about Legend of the Overfiend. And bath in all those woke scold tears. Muhaw!
Quote from: tenbones on January 25, 2022, 11:42:12 AM
Well...
Tyler, The Creator has a hip-hop album called 'Goblin' and it's full of rape.
We need to get some tax money for a study.
This made me laugh. So true...
Anyone here have a sociology degree of some kind that would be willing to be the face for the grant application?
We could literally get paid by Uncle Sam to watch anime and listen to hip-hop albums...
The one that would really send them into conniptions would be an adaptation of Shield Hero. Boy, that one pissed them off right from the start.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on January 25, 2022, 07:28:09 PM
The one that would really send them into conniptions would be an adaptation of Shield Hero. Boy, that one pissed them off right from the start.
Redo of Healer says hello.
Though shield hero definitely strikes a bit too close for comfort to a lot of people. Redo was a bit more over the top.
All those anime are shit though. Not because of their sexual content but because they are boring and stock as fuck.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on January 25, 2022, 07:28:09 PM
The one that would really send them into conniptions would be an adaptation of Shield Hero. Boy, that one pissed them off right from the start.
Thats because they cherry-picked and mis-quoted one line in the original light novel so they could bitch and threaten endlessly about it. Theres some threads here from when the anime was announced with a few of our resident village idiots parroting the party line like good little cattle.
Quote from: Omega on January 26, 2022, 01:56:32 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on January 25, 2022, 07:28:09 PM
The one that would really send them into conniptions would be an adaptation of Shield Hero. Boy, that one pissed them off right from the start.
Thats because they cherry-picked and mis-quoted one line in the original light novel so they could bitch and threaten endlessly about it. Theres some threads here from when the anime was announced with a few of our resident village idiots parroting the party line like good little cattle.
Wait, I wasn't here back then. Which quote from the book? I assumed it was about the false assault allegations (assuming we are still talking about shield hero).
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 25, 2022, 07:39:45 PM
All those anime are shit though. Not because of their sexual content but because they are boring and stock as fuck.
yeah, it's all shit ::)
"Demon Slayer" Manga Outsells Entire US Comics Industry
https://nerdbot.com/2021/05/24/demon-slayer-manga-outsells-entire-us-comics-industry/#:~:text=Demon%20Slayer%20Kimetsu%20No%20Yaiba,is%20around%2015%20million%20units.
Quote from: Hakdov on January 26, 2022, 10:57:23 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 25, 2022, 07:39:45 PM
All those anime are shit though. Not because of their sexual content but because they are boring and stock as fuck.
yeah, it's all shit ::)
"Demon Slayer" Manga Outsells Entire US Comics Industry
https://nerdbot.com/2021/05/24/demon-slayer-manga-outsells-entire-us-comics-industry/#:~:text=Demon%20Slayer%20Kimetsu%20No%20Yaiba,is%20around%2015%20million%20units.
I mean Demon Slayer isnt goblin slayer.
Quote from: Hzilong on January 26, 2022, 03:00:24 AM
Quote from: Omega on January 26, 2022, 01:56:32 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on January 25, 2022, 07:28:09 PM
The one that would really send them into conniptions would be an adaptation of Shield Hero. Boy, that one pissed them off right from the start.
Thats because they cherry-picked and mis-quoted one line in the original light novel so they could bitch and threaten endlessly about it. Theres some threads here from when the anime was announced with a few of our resident village idiots parroting the party line like good little cattle.
Wait, I wasn't here back then. Which quote from the book? I assumed it was about the false assault allegations (assuming we are still talking about shield hero).
There was the usual SJW outrage over now my-soggy-knees the main hero is because after he was robbed and accused of rape by the girl who had wanted to be his adventuring companion... His first thought on seeing a slave girl was wanting to do terrible things to her. Which he promptly shoves aside and proceeds to treat her decently considering his desperate situation. And eventually she becomes his emotional anchor on the road to recovery. But nooooo, hes a horrible nasty mans and yadda yadda ad nausium.
Then theres more fake outrage over once he gets his name cleared he renames her something rather unflattering, rather than have her executed. And probably more over the eventual execution.
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper on August 20, 2021, 10:37:40 PM
From what I remember - the whole setting is basically just a D&D setting which ran with the 'should you kill goblin babies?' idea, to think if they really are inherently evil. Goblin Slayer's setting just made them so horrible that the answer is "yes, yes you definitely should".
A mix of grimdark but with more hopefulness than something like Warhammer would have.
That's what I think is so funny. Other than being a bit graphic, it's really just an extremely trope-y D&D story. It's honestly kind of hard to take seriously, like so many isekai and isekai-adjacent manga, because it plays D&D-isms and/or MMO-isms so straight and literally, like having bona fide classes, skills, and levels as real things in the settings.
Quote from: Hakdov on January 26, 2022, 10:57:23 PM"Demon Slayer" Manga Outsells Entire US Comics Industry
And the US comics industry is also shit (and way deeper shit). And Demon Slayer is just generic shonen with a high animation budget.
Im not some socjus warrior clutching my pearls at goblin rape. Im a guy that wants better writing and more interesting action from an industry that I used to really like. It always had crap, but now it just has way less good stuff as well.
Mamoru Oshii made the sequel to Patlabor in friggin live action, because as he put it, the industry just lacks the creative chops to do the stuff they did in the 80s-90s.
Quote from: Innocent Smith on January 27, 2022, 03:43:43 AMThat's what I think is so funny. Other than being a bit graphic, it's really just an extremely trope-y D&D story. It's honestly kind of hard to take seriously, like so many isekai and isekai-adjacent manga, because it plays D&D-isms and/or MMO-isms so straight and literally, like having bona fide classes, skills, and levels as real things in the settings.
Yup, and if you seen 1, you seen them all because they are the tropiness of anime taken to an extreme.
Quote from: Innocent Smith on January 27, 2022, 03:43:43 AMlike so many isekai and isekai-adjacent manga, because it plays D&D-isms and/or MMO-isms so straight and literally, like having bona fide classes, skills, and levels as real things in the settings.
Um... To my knowledge Goblin Slayer is not an Isekai.
Now game mechanics in a show... Thats its own genre and goes quite a ways back. First one I ever heard of was Dragon Pink. The advertisements for it in VHS showed definite game elements. Theres probably older ones. Not counting cartoons actually set in games like Pac Man. 8)
Goblin Slayer is presented as an actual TTRPG campaign, with dice rolls and such. Not an MMO, not an Isekai. I kinda like its meta-critique of TTRPG tropes.
Quote from: S'mon on January 28, 2022, 04:54:48 AMI kinda like its meta-critique of TTRPG tropes.
I always though that Goblin Slayer was more about this than goblin rape. But if you listen to any criticism against it without ever watching the show, you'd think it was a multi-episode smut film. Yet the show itself is really about making fun of TTRPG tropes, while still trying to highlight the dangers of ignoring threats that brew at the margins of civilization cuz "They're just goblins".
Quote from: S'mon on January 28, 2022, 04:54:48 AM
I kinda like its meta-critique of TTRPG tropes.
Oh bullshit. Thats so out of the anime fans playbook to call lazy tropes played straight "critiques" or "subversion/deconstruction".
Having lazy writing in a universe of morons except the self-insert oc doesn't make for criticism, satire, or deconstruction. Just admit to watching shlock and don't hide your tastes as something they are not.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 28, 2022, 08:12:48 AM
Quote from: S'mon on January 28, 2022, 04:54:48 AM
I kinda like its meta-critique of TTRPG tropes.
Oh bullshit. Thats so out of the anime fans playbook to call lazy tropes played straight "critiques" or "subversion/deconstruction".
Having lazy writing in a universe of morons except the self-insert oc doesn't make for criticism, satire, or deconstruction. Just admit to watching shlock and don't hide your tastes as something they are not.
"I personally consider this show to be shlock and its handling of the material lazy."
Is a weak counterargument to:
"This show is a meta-critique of RPG tropes."
Quote from: VisionStorm on January 28, 2022, 09:08:09 AM"This show is a meta-critique of RPG tropes."
"X is a meta commentary!" -is by the playbook.
Just say you like anime titties and goblins being slayed by a self-insert OC in a world of morons. There is no shame.
I definitely like anime titties. I don't particularly identify with angsty teen protagonists though. I probably identify more with the sensible silver rank adventurers in the other party.
I've watched a couple of episodes on youtube. It's entertaining enough, but then I'm easily entertained. What I find amazing about those who decry the anime for the one scene are hypocritical. They can put what makes them feel good into their games and books but if it offends me, too bad. But I realize they're just being people. We're all hypocritical LOL
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 28, 2022, 09:18:29 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on January 28, 2022, 09:08:09 AM"This show is a meta-critique of RPG tropes."
"X is a meta commentary!" -is by the playbook.
Just say you like anime titties and goblins being slayed by a self-insert OC in a world of morons. There is no shame.
Still not an argument. Just a literal ad hom, used to back up what's essentially another ad hom*.
*perhaps not in the strictest sense of the term, but essentially the same type of fallacy, where you're dismissing an argument on the basis of your low opinion of the subject matter being discussed, rather than on the merits of the arguments or even simple observations that stand on their own.
Quote from: VisionStorm on January 28, 2022, 11:16:48 AM
Still not an argument.
Ok here is it: its not satire, its just low quality writing. You can claim all shallow things are secretly satire. "Michael bay satirizes shallow hollywood action films!".
Anime fans have a tendency to defend shallow writing with claims of commentary or satire.
Edit: what i mean is that by itself "x is really satire" is a irrefutable argument for anything.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 28, 2022, 11:33:04 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on January 28, 2022, 11:16:48 AM
Still not an argument.
Ok here is it: its not satire, its just low quality writing. You can claim all shallow things are secretly satire. "Michael bay satirizes shallow hollywood action films!".
Anime fans have a tendency to defend shallow writing with claims of commentary or satire.
This is pretty much negating reality and reinstating your ad homs again.
The show is literally comedy. Even to the degree that the main character takes himself seriously, it's presented in a comedic way, like "Why the hell is this dude being so serious about low-level dungeon spawn like goblins? WTF?" Saying that it isn't satire is basically negating reality, or at the most charitable, having COMPLETELY different definitions of WTF "satire" even is.
I normally don't watch animated stuff, but I was at a friend's house and ended up watching it. Main reason I kept watching it is because it was funny D&Dish satire. But now the show isn't satire cuz anime fans supposedly use that as an excuse to support bad writing, on your say so.
Quote from: VisionStorm on January 28, 2022, 11:53:52 AMThis is pretty much negating reality and reinstating your ad homs again.
Because 'Its satirical' is impossible to argue with. Taken at face value, its impossible to refute. Because its such an easy claim to make, I put it on you to justify its satirical value as good, in place of me having to refute it.
If judged as a comedy, its a weak one with jokes that are extremly stale (WOAH its got Character Classes! And a harem of bimbos following a bland self-insert edgelord MC! How original and uncommon!). It satirizes the MC for taking things seriously, but then justifies them by making the goblins a serious threat.
QuoteThe show is literally comedy.
Its
'Literally' not. Its Dark Fantasy, same category as Berserk and Drifters. Having comedic elements doesn't make something a comedy.
Dragonball has comedic elements (it started out as a comedy even), but doesn't make its later arcs satire or comedy of shonen. Fullmetal alchemist has comedic elements (some people really dislike them), but its not a comedy.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 28, 2022, 12:42:34 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on January 28, 2022, 11:53:52 AMThis is pretty much negating reality and reinstating your ad homs again.
Because 'Its satirical' is impossible to argue with. Taken at face value, its impossible to refute. Because its such an easy claim to make, I put it on you to justify its satirical value as good, in place of me having to refute it.
If judged as a comedy, its a weak one with jokes that are extremly stale (WOAH its got Character Classes! And a harem of bimbos following a bland self-insert edgelord MC! How original and uncommon!). It satirizes the MC for taking things seriously, but then justifies them by making the goblins a serious threat.
QuoteThe show is literally comedy.
Its 'Literally' not. Its Dark Fantasy, same category as Berserk and Drifters. Having comedic elements doesn't make something a comedy.
Dragonball has comedic elements (it started out as a comedy even), but doesn't make its later arcs satire or comedy of shonen. Fullmetal alchemist has comedic elements (some people really dislike them), but its not a comedy.
Judging satire as "satire" is not contingent upon personal taste or opinion. It just has to use "humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people's stupidity or vices", which the show does in basically every single episode. I have seen plenty of comedy films or shows I did not find funny. That did not make them "not comedy, because I personally didn't like them, therefore they aren't".
That's not how taste or personal opinions work. Just because you personally don't find something funny that does include multiple attempts at humor in it that doesn't place the burden of proof on someone else observing that it does in fact include humor in somehow "proving" that it does. You don't have to like a joke to recognize it as a joke unless you're being disingenuous or have some very skewed perspectives on how subjectivity works. Just because you need to like a joke (or know enough to understand the punchline) in order to find it funny that doesn't make jokes some inherently subjective thing that isn't humor unless you personally believe it's humor--it's still humor regardless. You just personally didn't find it funny.
And something being Dark Fantasy doesn't preclude it from also being comedy or satire. Evil Dead was both Horror, AND satire. Lethal Weapon was both, comedy AND an action flick. Buffy the Vampire Slayer was both Dark Fantasy AND comedy. Films, TV shows and literary works (etc.) can belong to multiple genres (or include multiple elements of them) at once.
Even 4chan thinks it's poorly written. https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Goblin_Slayer#Criticism
QuoteAs stated above, this manga has garnered controversy thanks due in part to its inconsistent setting. It's a setting with two opposing sets of gods playing a D&D-like game with the entire world, of which the characters and people in it are distantly aware. Many arguments have been had over whether the worldbuilding is simple and spartan or simply lazy, and particularly over whether it is a realistic fantasy world. As always with Japanese fantasy settings, the usual skub about Adventurers Guilds are frequently brought up.
A common criticism is that goblins are a threat disregarded by most political powerholders in the regions in which the story is set. Despite constantly raiding and destroying villages, killing adventuring parties, and being a constant boogeyman to women everywhere, they continue to be seen as unimportant and low-priority. When multiple parties of adventurers are forced to go after a goblin nest, people complain that this proves the deadliness of goblins and how they should be treated as a far greater danger, particularly in the frontier region in which Goblin Slayer operates.
Another common criticism leveled at the setting is that it is tonally dissonant. Goblin Slayer applies a grim, gritty motif to goblins and all encounters with them: goblins use simple but brutal and effective tactics like poisoned weapons, ambushes, traps, etc. However, the rest of the world is filled with standard JRPG tropes, including common use of Fantasy Armor. As such, when a dragon-killing barbarian is slain by a single cunning goblin, there are complaints that the world is flipping between Heroic Fantasy and Grimdark Low Fantasy only when goblins are involved, written solely to be edgy and "dark".
Finally, one of the major criticisms regards Goblin Slayer and his tactics, which are presented in story as being the result of pragmatic strategizing. In particular, some criticize his choice to use low-end gear to limit the fallout of his death should it be looted by goblins, instead of simply wearing much better gear to both kill more goblins faster and make getting killed by goblins less likely. Others believe his tactics are ridiculously fantastical, or simply tryhard attempts at seeming intelligent.
Quote from: VisionStorm on January 28, 2022, 01:08:25 PMIt just has to use "humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people's stupidity or vices", which the show does in basically every single episode.
Thats such a broad view of satire, this makes anything with a comedic edge a satire or a comedy. I cannot debate such a viewpoint. Under such categorization 95% of all anime, all media even, is a satire or a comedy.
You win the semantics argument because you find it funny, ergo its good satire and comedy.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 28, 2022, 01:23:01 PM
Even 4chan thinks it's poorly written.
I don't care what 4chan thinks, but thats a great summation of everything I see as wrong with the show.
I love the tonal dissonance in Goblin Slayer. It's something I see all the time in RPGs, most obviously when a non-RPG IP like Star Wars gets translated into RPG form and has to deal with real people exploiting the rules. This is a big problem with artificial worlds in general. AFAICT Goblin Slayer is all about pointing out and having fun with this kind of stuff. Plus anime tits.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 28, 2022, 01:23:01 PM
Even 4chan thinks it's poorly written. https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Goblin_Slayer#Criticism
QuoteAs stated above, this manga has garnered controversy thanks due in part to its inconsistent setting. It's a setting with two opposing sets of gods playing a D&D-like game with the entire world, of which the characters and people in it are distantly aware. Many arguments have been had over whether the worldbuilding is simple and spartan or simply lazy, and particularly over whether it is a realistic fantasy world. As always with Japanese fantasy settings, the usual skub about Adventurers Guilds are frequently brought up.
A common criticism is that goblins are a threat disregarded by most political powerholders in the regions in which the story is set. Despite constantly raiding and destroying villages, killing adventuring parties, and being a constant boogeyman to women everywhere, they continue to be seen as unimportant and low-priority. When multiple parties of adventurers are forced to go after a goblin nest, people complain that this proves the deadliness of goblins and how they should be treated as a far greater danger, particularly in the frontier region in which Goblin Slayer operates.
Another common criticism leveled at the setting is that it is tonally dissonant. Goblin Slayer applies a grim, gritty motif to goblins and all encounters with them: goblins use simple but brutal and effective tactics like poisoned weapons, ambushes, traps, etc. However, the rest of the world is filled with standard JRPG tropes, including common use of Fantasy Armor. As such, when a dragon-killing barbarian is slain by a single cunning goblin, there are complaints that the world is flipping between Heroic Fantasy and Grimdark Low Fantasy only when goblins are involved, written solely to be edgy and "dark".
Finally, one of the major criticisms regards Goblin Slayer and his tactics, which are presented in story as being the result of pragmatic strategizing. In particular, some criticize his choice to use low-end gear to limit the fallout of his death should it be looted by goblins, instead of simply wearing much better gear to both kill more goblins faster and make getting killed by goblins less likely. Others believe his tactics are ridiculously fantastical, or simply tryhard attempts at seeming intelligent.
Every argument in the world illustrating how Goblin Slayer's writing is shit is completely and utterly meaningless, even if delivered in such a way that it conclusively PROVES that the show's writing is in fact incoherent garbage, because absolutely NO ONE in the other side of this discussion is claiming that it's high art. The idea that the show's writing is shit is this red herring that gets constantly tossed by critics despite NOBODY here (or perhaps the internet AFAIK) ever, at ANY point, arguing on the basis of the show's writing quality. It's like:
QuoteRandom Commenter 1: You know, I find this show's critique of TTRPG tropes funny.
GS Hater: GS's writing is complete shit, therefore your argument is invalid.
Random Commenter 2: GS is almost all about D&D adventurers with JRPG and MMO elements thrown in.
GS Hater: GS's writing is complete shit, therefore your argument is invalid.
Random Commenter 3: For all the talk about rape in GS, there's only like one or two scenes about it in it, and all the rest is about RPG adventurers killing goblins.
GS Hater: GS's writing is complete shit, therefore your argument is invalid.
NONE of this actually addresses the thing that's being said. It merely makes an irrelevant point and value judgement that in no way invalidates what was actually said. It merely dismisses the subject being brought up as being unworthy of discussion without actually refuting anything.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 28, 2022, 01:37:41 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on January 28, 2022, 01:08:25 PMIt just has to use "humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people's stupidity or vices", which the show does in basically every single episode.
Thats such a broad view of satire, this makes anything with a comedic edge a satire or a comedy. I cannot debate such a viewpoint. Under such categorization 95% of all anime, all media even, is a satire or a comedy.
You win the semantics argument because you find it funny, ergo its good satire and comedy.
It's literally a copy/paste of the Google definition of "satire", with a bit added at the end to mention the fact that the show does this in every single episode.
Quote from: S'mon on January 28, 2022, 01:44:58 PM
I love the tonal dissonance in Goblin Slayer. It's something I see all the time in RPGs, most obviously when a non-RPG IP like Star Wars gets translated into RPG form and has to deal with real people exploiting the rules. This is a big problem with artificial worlds in general. AFAICT Goblin Slayer is all about pointing out and having fun with this kind of stuff. Plus anime tits.
Kind of like Order of the Stick but less disturbing? :)
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 28, 2022, 01:37:41 PM
I don't care what 4chan thinks, but thats a great summation of everything I see as wrong with the show.
I guess that makes two of us.
If I was writing GS, then I'd write it about humans banding together to exterminate all the goblins and other monsters from the face of the planet.
If I was writing a satire of TTRPG tropes, then I'd do that... e.g. I'd satirize the concept of hit points by depicting the character's bodies studded with weapons and missiles like pincushions but suffering no ill effects because their hit points are still above zero, satirize the concept of turning undead by depicting a luddite cleric use turning against windmills to make the mills burst into flames, satirize fantasy armor by having the adventurers (male
and female) dress like strippers, etc. Actually, fantasy anime is already pretty much self-satire/self-parody but completely lacking in any self-awareness.
But I'm already working on stuff. In the scifi setting I'm currently working on, humanity is fighting against an infection that turns crews of infected ships into bio-circuitry. They are still alive and conscious throughout this, so attempts at communication simply return perpetual screaming and warnings of "Libera temet ex inferis!"
Quote from: Ghostmaker on January 28, 2022, 02:52:23 PM
Quote from: S'mon on January 28, 2022, 01:44:58 PM
I love the tonal dissonance in Goblin Slayer. It's something I see all the time in RPGs, most obviously when a non-RPG IP like Star Wars gets translated into RPG form and has to deal with real people exploiting the rules. This is a big problem with artificial worlds in general. AFAICT Goblin Slayer is all about pointing out and having fun with this kind of stuff. Plus anime tits.
Kind of like Order of the Stick but less disturbing? :)
You havent read much Order of the Stick then.
Goof Lord! Goblin slayer is the anime adaption of Order of the Stick!!! It all makes sense now. Thank you.
Quote from: VisionStorm on January 28, 2022, 02:20:47 PMEvery argument in the world illustrating how Goblin Slayer's writing is shit is completely and utterly meaningless to me.
Im glad you confirmed it. ;D
Quotebecause absolutely NO ONE in the other side of this discussion is claiming that it's high art.
I said its shlock, and thats OK, and you got all defensive and claimed 'meta-commentary'.
Bullshit. Arguing politics is about on the same level as arguing with anime fan about the merit of anything.
Im not even discussing the shows sanctity or the like, or claiming its part of rape culture. You want to play it off like your fine calling it the shlocky low-tier seasonal anime trash that it is, but the second its criticized you get immensly defensive.
Arguing artistic merit of any sort (even of shlock in terms of relative shlock), is IMPOSSIBLE with you. Because its all subjective, but if you claim its shlock then it doesn't matter except all the criticisms are totally wrong anyway. You positioned your argumentation in such a way where its impossible to have a discussion about merits at all unless its praise.
??? Mad Max's Thunderdome was a better way to resolve such disagreements than endless forum posts. Maybe the RPG will have bitchin' goblin games -- of violence! 8) With an extra helping of violence!
(Oh, who am I kidding? It'll be ruined by a lack of anime tiddies... :-[)
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 28, 2022, 08:03:39 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on January 28, 2022, 02:20:47 PMEvery argument in the world illustrating how Goblin Slayer's writing is shit is completely and utterly meaningless to me.
Im glad you confirmed it. ;D
Quotebecause absolutely NO ONE in the other side of this discussion is claiming that it's high art.
I said its shlock, and thats OK, and you got all defensive and claimed 'meta-commentary'.
Bullshit. Arguing politics is about on the same level as arguing with anime fan about the merit of anything.
Im not even discussing the shows sanctity or the like, or claiming its part of rape culture. You want to play it off like your fine calling it the shlocky low-tier seasonal anime trash that it is, but the second its criticized you get immensly defensive.
Arguing artistic merit of any sort (even of shlock in terms of relative shlock), is IMPOSSIBLE with you. Because its all subjective, but if you claim its shlock then it doesn't matter except all the criticisms are totally wrong anyway. You positioned your argumentation in such a way where its impossible to have a discussion about merits at all unless its praise.
Whatever, dude. You're not arguing against anything I'm actually saying. And I explained it to you, and your response is to STILL argue against things I'm not saying and armchair psychoanalyze my presumed motivations as an "anime fan" despite the fact that IM NOT A FUCKIGN ANIME FAN. I've barely even watched animated shit in ANY CAPACITY (Japanese or otherwise) in my entire adult life and barely even give a shit about this show. In fact, I even got put off by anime as a teen cuz some of my friends kept watching it instead of playing TTRPGs the days we had agreed to play, when i didn't even like cartoons that much to begin with. The only reason I'm even responding is because your arguments are shit and I lack the bone in my head to ignore fallacious arguments or outright falsehoods, like the idea that GS somehow doesn't have satire, when its main redeeming feature is that it IS satirical. But apparently you don't understand WTF a red herring or logical fallacy even is.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 28, 2022, 02:57:17 PM
If I was writing GS, then I'd write it about humans banding together to exterminate all the goblins and other monsters from the face of the planet.
That happens in the second(?) book. Not off the planet, but all the adventurers band together to stop a goblin invasion. GS is largely a slice of life series based around a single town and its inhabitants, but the goblins are an infestation that is getting stronger and more dangerous due to a cult trying to resurrect the dark lord.
Quote...satirize fantasy armor by having the adventurers (male and female) dress like strippers, etc.
GS does, in fact, satirize this as well. Several times.
I think this conversation would be far more constructive if anybody here had bothered to actually read the light novels. The anime only covers the first two and a half volumes (the movie is volume 4), and skips a lot of the dialogue and explanation that answers a lot of complaints made against the series. For instance, the books go into great detail about why GS uses cheap, disposable weapons when fighting goblins, and yet that 4chan quote criticizes it as if there wasn't an explanation for it. Likely because whoever wrote that bit only watched the anime - likely dubbed and in the background while browsing reddit on their phone.
I gather the GS RPG is out, anybody looked at it?
Quote from: worrapol on August 16, 2022, 10:15:47 PM
I gather the GS RPG is out, anybody looked at it?
Is! I just ordered it. Will be here Friday, in theory.
Wish I could have gotten the Extra Special Deee-luxe Japanese version, but I value something I can actually read and won't take six months to get here.
Plus, like twenty bucks shipped. Not bad.
I am not familiar with this product, but the first few posts already show great potential for entertainment.
I preordered it and have had it for a little while. Have not had time for an in depth reading and to generate a few characters and try sole combat and spells, but it looks pretty good from a quick skim through it. Very thick book. Manga digest size and paper/print quality. Sparse B&W art.
Quote from: Myrdin Potter on August 17, 2022, 12:40:57 AM
I preordered it and have had it for a little while. Have not had time for an in depth reading and to generate a few characters and try sole combat and spells, but it looks pretty good from a quick skim through it. Very thick book. Manga digest size and paper/print quality. Sparse B&W art.
Yes, what I've seen of it, this rpg seems to be designed for the fans who already own practically everything related to the manga. That's also why it contains so little art. It was pretty much the same with the Konosuba ttrpg.
This is on my Amazon wish list, and I'll probably be purchasing it soon.
I'm not sure if GS is satire, homage, or involuntary humor, but maybe a bit of each:
---
Non-Prayer Characters (ノンプレイヤーキャラクター (祈らぬ者) Nonpureiyākyarakutā), also referred to as Non-Prayers, Non-Players, Non-Praying or the Unpraying[1] is a loose term used to categorize beings aligned with Chaos. Most antagonists in the series are Non-Prayers, including goblins.
Overview
The name comes from how they do not pray to the gods of order like Prayers, and such, monsters are generally classified as Non-Prayer characters. Individuals and people such as the Evil Sect and the Demon Lord are also classified as Non-Prayers due to their alignment.
I may buy just out of spite because I know the Right Thinkers will make every effort to try and sabotage this game. The anime is cool, my wife and I are currently watching it, and from the reviews on amazon the game seems solid.
Wow...It turns out Goblin Slayer is controversial even here. I read the manga, and do enjoy it, but I'm not going to claim it's some kind of amazing literature. Haven't seen the anime, but I'd review the manga as a fun slice-of-life fantasy serial with occasional loving nods to classic D&D tropes and lurching shifts into grimdark. It might not be entirely inaccurate to call it "bubblegum-pop Berserk", but like a lot of manga/anime, it skates by on being charming and basically inoffensive.
I do disagree with the idea that it's meant as a serious satire or commentary on fantasy tropes. There's a little dose of that in the early issues, but it pretty much dissolves as the manga goes on. I'll give the caveat, though, that from what I've heard the original light novels are considerably darker and more serious. For me, the chief appeal of the manga is precisely that it is almost completely sincere and without irony. The heroes are heroic, the villains are villainous, and the good guys always win.
As to the RPG, I'm reserved about buying it. Grim Jim did a video review, and I get the impression it's just a generic fantasy RPG with Japanese mechanics. That's to be expected though, since the Goblin Slayer setting might as well just be "Generic D&D Land". There's absolutely no reason why you couldn't run Goblin slayer in any old school fantasy game.
There's also the issue that the game is going to carry the baggage of the controversy around it. It's the same problem with Tales of Gor. I really like the Gor setting, but if I decided to run it, my more normie players are going to go Google the setting and get a bunch of misinformation back that I'm then going to have to waste time trying to disabuse them of.
Quote from: ForgottenF on August 17, 2022, 01:21:40 PM
Wow...It turns out Goblin Slayer is controversial even here. I read the manga, and do enjoy it, but I'm not going to claim it's some kind of amazing literature. Haven't seen the anime, but I'd review the manga as a fun slice-of-life fantasy serial with occasional loving nods to classic D&D tropes and lurching shifts into grimdark. It might not be entirely inaccurate to call it "bubblegum-pop Berserk", but like a lot of manga/anime, it skates by on being charming and basically inoffensive.
The way Goblin Slayer is singled out is
completely over the top given its actual content.
Earlier in the thread I give my reasons why I think that is so - but it is completely ridiculous.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on August 17, 2022, 12:51:16 PM
I'm not sure if GS is satire, homage, or involuntary humor, but maybe a bit of each:
---
Non-Prayer Characters (ノンプレイヤーキャラクター (祈らぬ者) Nonpureiyākyarakutā), also referred to as Non-Prayers, Non-Players, Non-Praying or the Unpraying[1] is a loose term used to categorize beings aligned with Chaos. Most antagonists in the series are Non-Prayers, including goblins.
...
IMHO this kind of thing must be Japanese RPG conceits, as you see things like this throughout the book.
The Examples of play literally just call the PC's: Shield Fighter, and Magic Archer...
I feel it has a certain kind of charm to it.
It's interesting how the 2d6 based system does things just that bit differently than Western RPG's.
You have 7 ability scores: 4 primary; Strength, Psyche, Technique, intelligence. Then 3 Secondary; Focus, Endurance, Reflex.
But none of your checks use those scores directly. You use the number from the grid on the PC Sheet where the Primary, and secondary scores are added to together. These are also use to figure into 'saves' like Spell Resistance.
The classes: Fighter, Monk, Ranger, Scout, Sorcerer, Priest, Dragon Priest, Shaman. These classes with 'levels' work kind of like Barbarians of lemuria does careers as skills.
You also have your Adventurer level which is different from your class levels. Your adventurer level gets added into some rolls as well, depending...
Then you have your "skills" which are divided into "Adventurer" skills, and "General" Skills. Except that they work more like D&D style feats and WFRP Talents - depending on what they are doing...
Rolling high is king...
For a standard roll you add the relevant ability score combo, + relevant class 'level', + any skill that helps, +2d6. Combat uses opposed rolls.
The higher you roll the more d6's are added to the weapon d6's when rolling for damage. Damage can be reduced by Armor, or you can try to block it.
Spells do things similarly with the number rolled having an effect on how big an effect the spell can have.
Fate points can help your PC in these rolls.
Also, your PC's 'life force' = Hit Points. But when you are hit you don't subtract from your life force. You start adding 'wounds'. When your wounds are more than your life force score you start adding fatigue every round. When your wounds are more than double your life force; you're fucking dead.
You also have a Fatigue track, that runs off your Attrition track, that you check off every round of combat. i.e. You need to kill enemies FAST. Or you tire yourself out, and life starts to suck...
For a 2d6 game it packs some crunch!
Monsters have morale scores. (Just throwing that out there...)
It has a good index. Because you need it. The Japanese have different ideas about RPG organization. Grimjim spoke truth in his review; Everything seems to just run together, it does not have the 'page breaks' that a western RPG has.
Haven't really dived into the setting, monsters, or treasure sections yet beyond a quick skim. Although the setting which is called The Four-Cornered World dives head first into early D&D naming (or lack of) conceits unironically and with no apologies. It gives a list of famous people with 3-4 paragraph blurbs about them.
Their names? Literally: The King, Sword Maiden, Female Merchant, Female General, The Golden Knight (a place), The Elf With the Flower Crown, Hero, The Informant, The Knight of Diamonds.
The Japanese keep it Gangster.
Alert! I could not find any wilderness travel rules, or any delving, or exploration procedures. So obviously this is an incomplete RPG.
Yes, I actually own the Goblin Slayer RPG. Ask me anything...
Thanks for sharing that info. It certainly has raised my interest in the game.
It has Vampire Killer as a weapon option.
By name. There is a listing for a generic whip, and a listing for Vampire Killer, a holy whip that deals extra damage to the undead.
Badass.
It's interesting how Tunnels and Trolls' DNA has been baked into Japanese games. d6, the use of "saving throws" as feats/actions, etc as well as the feel of the setting. You could run Goblin Slayer with T&T more seamlessly than D&D. 7th edition would be a perfect match.