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I'm still struggling with, as a GM, turning an idea or a goal into an activity with challenging, multiple steps. This is a problem for me REGARDLESS of whether the goal/activity is generated by me or the players, and REGARDLESS of whether or not I'm pre-planning OR improving (based on a "Situation"). Both my players and I find this unsatisfying.

EXAMPLE:

we have the goal "rescue the people kidnapped from the tavern by Orcs" turns into "follow the Orks trail, then deal with them to get the hostages" which isn't even two scenes of activity.

TRIED:

Creating Antagonists w/ Goals (in the above example, Orc doesn't wants to keep his captives as slaves, but that doesn't turn into anything for the players to do besides rescue them).

Creating steps for the Antagonists a la Fronts/Dangers (Orc kidnaps people and takes them back to lair).

The problem is that you're setting up pins for them to knock down. Instead, take a different approach.

1. Come up with the basic problem situation (orcs have stolen some people)

2. Add detail. Where do the orcs live? What's the world like in between? Where were they stolen from? What other groups are nearby? Who else cares that the orcs are being bad? Who is interested in propping up the orcs, if only for selfish reasons? Who else wants the stolen people back, but is controlling, manipulative, and/or has secondary goals that might threaten the mission?

3. Now up the difficulty. What if there are too many orcs for them to take in a fight? What if the orcs are few, but tough? Do the orcs have layers of defense? Flunkies? Are they moving soon? (Have they already moved?) Who can they call on for help? What else would try if you were a group of orcs and some badasses shows up to try to steal your lunch?

Don't solve the problem for the players (even in your head), that's their job. Let them thrash around a bit looking for allies, clues, obstacles, advantages.

Quote from: PencilBoy99;940206we have the goal "rescue the people kidnapped from the tavern by Orcs" turns into "follow the Orks trail, then deal with them to get the hostages" which isn't even two scenes of activity.

Maybe you need to come up with a more complex situation than arriving at a tavern where a few hours ago a bunch of orcs dragged hostages into the wild.

For example

A bunch of orcs raided a roadside tavern three days ago. This section of road is not patrolled well. The local baron been pocketing some of the royal funds that supposed to go to hire guard. The PCs happened to come across the tavern and find out from the tavernkeeper about the raid. He quite worried about his own reputation and throw himself on the mercy of the PC. He has some coin but best he can do is offer a room as a regular place to stay for free for the party.

The PCs goes off and find the days old trails and starts investigating. They manage to track the trail back to a small hamlet of orcs on the edges of the Blood Forest. After a sharp fight in which the PC triumph, they find out the hostages were sold as slave to one Ogg the Bold, an ogre who lives deeper in the forest. They also learn enough to get a sense there is an entire evil society living in the forest. That Ogg the Bold is a small but important slave merchant.

Luckily the PCs learn where Ogg lives. They have a window of opportunity to get the victims back but need to be properly equipped and prepared. They go back to the tavern and get geared up. During the course of explaining things to the tavernkeeper, one of the baron's men overhears. The conversation is reported and the Baron is worried that the PCs will eventually talk to a Royal Offical. So he begin preparations.

The PCs leaves and enters the Blood Forest. After a challenging adventure they managed to liberate the hostages and kill Ogg. Also learning more about the Blood Forest including the fact that a Hill Giant Chief, Matdock, is planning a pillaging raid on the Baron's Keep. When they bring the hostage outs, they are met by a small force from the Baron who have been ordered to intercept the PCs and kill everybody covering up his incompetence.

Comment

I realize that I wrote this as a story but what you do is setup the pieces. The tavern, the baron, the orc hamlet, the ogre steading, the blood forest, the hill giants. Come up with the plans and the interconnections. Then develop the initial event, the kidnapping.

Then afterwards you play it by ear. It may be that the party slaughters the orc hamlet and totally misses the fact that the hostages were sold to an ogre. Or any number of possible problems or failure mode.

But by detailing all this you create a mini sandbox that could go any number of ways. To make things easier you can use your experience to make predictions about how you think your players will act. Add a little leeway and prepare accordingly. Just don't be welded to a particular chain of events.

See what Fuseboy said? That's what you do.

You're looking at your own idea as two-dimensional binary options, and not giving your own creations their own motives and breathing space.

All the things Fuseboy said are spot on. The extrapolations from those very questions which lead to your situation are themselves potential situations unto themselves. That's how your game gains its own momentum and starts to live and breathe within your sandbox.

The GAME is what emerges from your PC's interacting with these situations.

So the orcs kidnapped the villagers. Why? What are some possibilities that would motivate the orcs to do this? If you make it black and white - well they're orcs they like kidnapping people in taverns - you're creating your own problem. Add a dash of complexity to the nascent adventure - a dragon is forcing them to do it. Or they've been incentivized to do so by some other party (wizard, dragon etc.) - that leads to the *real* adventure. Maybe the orcs have a good reason to do it? They needed help only someone in particular in the tavern - (orcs can't tell them apart so they took everyone) - so when the adventurers catch up to them, the kidnapped people are actively trying to help the orcs from some threat under the guidance of their intended target.

I could go on and on. The point is - let your players approach these plot ideas at their own pace. But you need to feed it and know why these things are happening as cause-and-effect and your campaign will start, in many ways, to run itself. You just provide the space and flesh it out as you go.

Quote from: fuseboy;940210The problem is that you're setting up pins for them to knock down. Instead, take a different approach.

1. Come up with the basic problem situation (orcs have stolen some people)

2. Add detail. Where do the orcs live? What's the world like in between? Where were they stolen from? What other groups are nearby? Who else cares that the orcs are being bad? Who is interested in propping up the orcs, if only for selfish reasons? Who else wants the stolen people back, but is controlling, manipulative, and/or has secondary goals that might threaten the mission?

3. Now up the difficulty. What if there are too many orcs for them to take in a fight? What if the orcs are few, but tough? Do the orcs have layers of defense? Flunkies? Are they moving soon? (Have they already moved?) Who can they call on for help? What else would try if you were a group of orcs and some badasses shows up to try to steal your lunch?

This, so much this.

Quote from: fuseboy;940210Don't solve the problem for the players (even in your head), that's their job. Let them thrash around a bit looking for allies, clues, obstacles, advantages.

This trick is, still giving them a chance to pick a strategy that will work, or maybe bending a little when they want a specific one to work.

The key element is multiple ends for the same goal.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;940214This trick is, still giving them a chance to pick a strategy that will work, or maybe bending a little when they want a specific one to work.

The key element is multiple ends for the same goal.

Agree with this!  There is a goal - rescue hostages - just because You know how to get it done best, does not mean you have to give that info to the players or push them into that direction.  

Sometimes we as GMs know it was orcs, but do the townspeople know the difference between an orc, elf, or troll?  Do they even know or have ever interacted with orcs?

If they are getting close to the goal for you too early, did the orcs sell the townspeople as slaves, meat, other?
Can the Orcs hold off the players by asking for a favor for release?

Remember with an RPG (as some of us forget at times) leave no path blocked, no door closed, and no outcome off limits.  Let the players run off on a side mission, get distracted by a treasure hunt, or just get it all wrong and let them go with it.

From your opening post it looks like you at least have an idea that you are supposted to be doing whats been suggested but end up not.  

I dont have that problem.  I have two suggestions.  First more prep.  Very much like suggested above.  Second try making a random table of complications.  Any time your adventure looks too linear make a roll or two.  Actully that sounds like something pundit or Geaser might already have.  

Hope this helps and not what but how.

Quote from: fuseboy;940210Don't solve the problem for the players (even in your head), that's their job.

Just making sure this doesn't get overlooked.

You create the situation and then you REACT to what the players and their characters do.

So.... why do the players care?

If the kidnapped people stay kidnapped, or get killed, or whatever, what reasons do the PCs have to care at all?

Thinking in complications helps too. Just be careful not to overcomplicate the adventure.

Maybe the Orcs get back to their lair and find that some Bugbears have decided to move in while they were gone.
Or one of the kidnapped villagers is actually working with/for the orcs.
I agree the orcs need more motivation as well. Are the going for ransom? Are the villagers special somehow? Why would the orcs risk the anger of the townspeople?

Well, MAYBE the Orcs did the kidnapping, maybe they didn't. Maybe there's multiple tribes who could've done it. Maybe they were hired.

The discussion, above, about motivation is important, as are the comments about approaching the Orcs from the standpoint of how they think. I assume if it's a straight grab and dash, they have to know someone's going to come looking, so they're going to be prepared for it. If it's a lot of someones, they might even be dealing with a large, armed contingent.

We have a somewhat similar situation in our current campaign involving the disappearance of the Mage's mentor. On the surface, the obvious kidnappers look like a sketchy temple/cult active in spreading doomsday notions, and sporting symbols linked to a second campaign thread. Of course, the Temple DOES want the guy. But so does the cult the players don't know about, the disease-spreading sect planted not far from town, the ones responsible for the latest outbreak in their home town.

Neither of them, however, has the guy. The person responsible for the kidnapping is an opportunistic merchant who knows both will pay big for the guy, so he's pitting them against each other. Just to be safe, he's had another pair of associates take charge of hiding the mentor in a location he doesn't know. He gets a little protection and some deniability if someone tries to connect him. Eventually, he'll drive the price up, get the loot, then get word to the local Lord about the disease cult, so they can be wiped out (he's not THAT bad a guy, he thinks). He doesn't know what the Temple is up to, but, to him, they look harmless enough--buncha crazies spreading their nutty message (but, if they get ahold of said mage, then we have a MUCH bigger problem in the offing, in the form of some nasty-ass ancient magic shit, the location of which said Mage knows, and has been waiting to share with his protege--if they ever actually find him).

Anyhoo, the party has done just enough spying on the merchant (a business rival of the Halfling in our group) to have seen the merchant's associates arrive in town one night, stay over, then leave before dawn. The party caught wind of  the same two guys again when they headed south for a completely unrelated task. Found out the dudes belong to a bandit troop that's been knocking over caravans (then kicking back some dough to the merchant, who's been providing them selected deliveries--this they DON'T know--yet). As of this writing, they're planning to look into the bandits, which would lead them right to the mentor--unless the Mage convinces them they need to pay a visit to the temple to check for his mentor there (where they ALL believe the guy is).

Okay, so that's a long, boring example of what's happening, but, from the campaign standpoint it has certain advantages, not the least of which is personal investment--they KNOW the missing person. So they're motivated to pursue the lead. Second, they've also had run-ins with the temple priest and the rival merchant. So they want to stick it to them, if they can. Third, they've seen signs of the disease (which the cleric has deduced is not natural, and really wants to look into, but can't because he's already agreed to help with the missing Mage [and he's a goody two shoes]). As the merchant associates are on the radar because halfling PC really wants to stick it to his rival, HE'S pushing to find out what they're up to, and pursue THAT lead, which is closer to their current location (they think). Through mistaken ID, he's already gotten hold of a delivery schedule (which the banditos are gonna figure out really quickly, and come looking for THEM). In the end, there are several points of entry into this web, any of which could turn the whole thing a different direction.

So, I guess my point is, no matter who's doing what, if you know WHY they're doing it, and how that plays into the PC motivations, it makes it easier to weave additional threads to complicate your tapestry.

The simplest answer to me, though, is to put yourself in the adversary's shoes, and play them intelligently (if they're actually cunning). One would think your Orcs would either (a) cover their tracks to avoid future problems with snoops, or (b) leave a wide open trail, because, hey, they're so damned bad ass, they're DARING someone to come along to take their "tiny canon," er, I mean, victims. The PCs want to succeed in their aims. So do their enemies. When there's no telling who's gonna come out on top, that leads to some great gaming.

If you play computer games, think of it this way: don't try to design a main questline, just design sidequests.

As others have said, create a little world where there are a bunch of people with real personalities - simple ones, but real nonetheless - and real histories, all living in a land with real geography. Conflicts are always happening, and the PCs find out about them and decide where they'll step in. For example, "rescue the hostages from the orcs" can have a bit more to it.

Count Barnacle rules a small county on the seacoast, with its capital his keep and market town, known as Seaview. A rare kind of fish is found here, the Babelfish, it tastes awful but its liver is used in a Potion of Speak In Tongues which lets the two people drinking it understand one another despite no common language. It gets mixed in with wine when two merchants sit down to bargain, there's a bit of ritual around it. Taxes on this bring in a steady revenue. Count Barnacle has two children, a 16yo son Johann and a 20yo daughter Marie. They don't like each-other much. As daughter, Marie would not inherit the county unless there were no male heir.

Further up the river is a much smaller county, the March, ruled by William the Ugly. The Babelfish actually spawn in his part of the river, but the King granted the right to harvest them to Barnacle, so what can he do. William is unmarried, and has his eye on Marie. A woman can rule alone, but if she marries, her husband will rule.

Seaview sits beside a river that comes down the valley from the mountains, with its main source on Mount Finicky, so-called because it's rocky and hard to traverse, impossible on horseback. It's also bleak as fuck and nothing grows there. Of course this is where the orcs live in a series of underground caverns and dungeons. In ancient times, dwarves lived in those hills, but they are all gone now. Sometimes the orc tunnel into those old dwarven ruins but the undead and traps take their toll.

The orcs recently had a new chief come to power - he killed and ate his predecessor - Bagolog Stonefist. One day one of Stonefist's raiding parties took a young woman, Sally, who was the daughter of Barnacle's engineer, Harold. From her he got an idea - why not get Harold to help digging into the dwarven ruins? So one day his orcs captured a work party working on a bridge over the river, and took Harold prisoner.

So now the Count wants his people rescued, and especially his engineer. His son Johann wants to prove himself. Barnacle is considering sending 50 of his men-at-arms to deal with the orcs, with Johann leading them. Marie argues that it would be better to send a small group of adventurers, but Johann doesn't want to be associated with rabble. However she strongly urges that Johann go out into facing hundreds of orcs with a small group of armed people. Can you think why?

The party must travel through the March to get to Mt Finicky, by the way, and will need to stop for rest and provisions along the way. The river sometimes flood and there are rockfalls along some of the passes, it would help to have a local guide from the March. Count William would be glad to provide one. Can you think why?

You can also think, will Chief Stonefist mistreat engineer Harold, or will he pay him well and give him access to captured wine and food, or women if Harold is interested? So maybe the guy they're rescuing doesn't want to be rescued? And willing or not, will his advice help the orcs have better defences against assault?

So let's say the PCs go in and kill some or all of the orcs and rescue the prisoners. Did they save them all? Or not? Will this change how the various nobles feel about them? Will the PCs want to go in and explore the deeper dwarven ruins themselves?

And so on and so forth. You create real people with real motivations and real geography, conflicts pop up and the PCs can get into all that. On the other hand they could just charge on into the ruins, kill things and take their stuff. It's up to them.

Think sidequest, not mainquest. In computer games it is what it is. In tabletop games, a mainquest is just a sidequest that went on longer than expected.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;940288If you play computer games, think of it this way: don't try to design a main questline, just design sidequests.

As others have said, create a little world where there are a bunch of people with real personalities - simple ones, but real nonetheless - and real histories, all living in a land with real geography. Conflicts are always happening, and the PCs find out about them and decide where they'll step in. For example, "rescue the hostages from the orcs" can have a bit more to it.

Count Barnacle rules a small county on the seacoast, with its capital his keep and market town, known as Seaview. A rare kind of fish is found here, the Babelfish, it tastes awful but its liver is used in a Potion of Speak In Tongues which lets the two people drinking it understand one another despite no common language. It gets mixed in with wine when two merchants sit down to bargain, there's a bit of ritual around it. Taxes on this bring in a steady revenue. Count Barnacle has two children, a 16yo son Johann and a 20yo daughter Marie. They don't like each-other much. As daughter, Marie would not inherit the county unless there were no male heir.

Further up the river is a much smaller county, the March, ruled by William the Ugly. The Babelfish actually spawn in his part of the river, but the King granted the right to harvest them to Barnacle, so what can he do. William is unmarried, and has his eye on Marie. A woman can rule alone, but if she marries, her husband will rule.

Seaview sits beside a river that comes down the valley from the mountains, with its main source on Mount Finicky, so-called because it's rocky and hard to traverse, impossible on horseback. It's also bleak as fuck and nothing grows there. Of course this is where the orcs live in a series of underground caverns and dungeons. In ancient times, dwarves lived in those hills, but they are all gone now. Sometimes the orc tunnel into those old dwarven ruins but the undead and traps take their toll.

The orcs recently had a new chief come to power - he killed and ate his predecessor - Bagolog Stonefist. One day one of Stonefist's raiding parties took a young woman, Sally, who was the daughter of Barnacle's engineer, Harold. From her he got an idea - why not get Harold to help digging into the dwarven ruins? So one day his orcs captured a work party working on a bridge over the river, and took Harold prisoner.

So now the Count wants his people rescued, and especially his engineer. His son Johann wants to prove himself. Barnacle is considering sending 50 of his men-at-arms to deal with the orcs, with Johann leading them. Marie argues that it would be better to send a small group of adventurers, but Johann doesn't want to be associated with rabble. However she strongly urges that Johann go out into facing hundreds of orcs with a small group of armed people. Can you think why?

The party must travel through the March to get to Mt Finicky, by the way, and will need to stop for rest and provisions along the way. The river sometimes flood and there are rockfalls along some of the passes, it would help to have a local guide from the March. Count William would be glad to provide one. Can you think why?

You can also think, will Chief Stonefist mistreat engineer Harold, or will he pay him well and give him access to captured wine and food, or women if Harold is interested? So maybe the guy they're rescuing doesn't want to be rescued? And willing or not, will his advice help the orcs have better defences against assault?

So let's say the PCs go in and kill some or all of the orcs and rescue the prisoners. Did they save them all? Or not? Will this change how the various nobles feel about them? Will the PCs want to go in and explore the deeper dwarven ruins themselves?

And so on and so forth. You create real people with real motivations and real geography, conflicts pop up and the PCs can get into all that. On the other hand they could just charge on into the ruins, kill things and take their stuff. It's up to them.

Think sidequest, not mainquest. In computer games it is what it is. In tabletop games, a mainquest is just a sidequest that went on longer than expected.

This setup is better than any module WotC has ever written.

"Don't design a main quest, design a bunch of side quests."

Perfect advice.

Also, REMEMBER:  In every scene, each individual wants something, and they will attempt to move the scene in a way that gets them what they want.  SO, what do the Orcs want, and why does capturing humans help them get it?  Figure this out and the rest will fall out naturally.  In fact, that's all you need for this adventure:  "Some Orcs captured some villagers for the reason of X."  There's your adventure writeup.  Ready, set, go.

>"Don't design a main quest, design a bunch of side quests."

I love that advice.

I've actually had players complain that there's no "main quest" for them to focus on before.

It's just a thought I've had playing Fallout 4 and Skyrim over the last year. Usually the main quest is quite linear, and there are no real choices: you either do it or you don't. And "doing it" usually involves, "go here and kill these dudes." The side quests are usually more interesting, involving not just killing but theft and persuasion, and let you meet more NPCs and see more of the game world.

Now in a computer game all that stuff is programmed in, so however much you love some bunch of NPCs and their side quests, they remain the side quests, and there's only so far you can take them. The benefit of tabletop gaming is that even the dumbest DM is smarter than a computer. What's the main quest? Whichever one the players decide to focus on!

Your campaign world is a loosely-woven mat. It's up to the players which thread they follow to unravel the mat.

Quote from: robiswrong;940267So.... why do the players care?

If the kidnapped people stay kidnapped, or get killed, or whatever, what reasons do the PCs have to care at all?

Well one might assume the players (but not necessarily the PCs) arent emotionless robots incapable of caring or helping a stranger.

Quote from: fuseboy;940210Don't solve the problem for the players (even in your head), that's their job.

Yup.  My greatest GMing epiphany was the day I realized that, no matter how hard I tried to create situations that the PCs could only get out of in one possible way, my players always managed to solve it in a different way than the "right" solution.  So I stopped creating "right" solutions and started putting them in situations with no idea of how they might deal with them.

Quote from: robiswrong;940267So.... why do the players care?
If the kidnapped people stay kidnapped, or get killed, or whatever, what reasons do the PCs have to care at all?

Quote from: Omega;940340Well one might assume the players (but not necessarily the PCs) arent emotionless robots incapable of caring or helping a stranger.

Except of course that the player characters aren't the only people in the game world. Even if there were no reliable  law enforcement to turn to, do the victims not have friends and relatives? And do the player character not have their own priorities?

Obviously one should not read too much into what is just an example and there is argument to say that if you turn up to the play the game, then play the damn game. But they "why" is very important and can make the difference between a routine game experience and a great one.

In a superhero game saving innocents is what your character signed up for, it part of your job description. It's the whole "with great power come great responsibility". In some other genres the "great power isn't always as obvious" and the "great responsibility" bit is absolutely questionable. So if want to run the sort of game where the players character take time to rescue strangers, probably worth addressing that during character generation.

Of course the pure sandbox model makes that less an issue because the GM is no longer bring a goal to the table, just a range of different opportunities. But then not all games are part of ongoing campaigns or well suited for sandboxing, and even then if all the player characters int he sandbox go off in different directions following each individuals motivations, it may not  provide the best gaming experience. So working out as a group the "why" still matters.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;940288If you play computer games, think of it this way: don't try to design a main questline, just design sidequests.

I actually thought this would be an especially good approach to urban adventures like Cyberpunk or Mutant Chronicles. A bunch of sidequests inspired by the meta-events happening in the city. So there's a "story", but the players arrive at it holographically. (https://valarotaku.com/2014/09/05/holographic-storytelling-bablyon-5/) "Man, there's a lot of cybersnatching going on lately, maybe something's up."

I actually have liked doing a setup similar to a lot of TV shows (for some types of games).  Apparently unrelated situations, with some of them tying into a larger overarcing situation, even if it's not immediately obvious at the time.

Quote from: PencilBoy99;940206I'm still struggling with, as a GM, turning an idea or a goal into an activity with challenging, multiple steps. This is a problem for me REGARDLESS of whether the goal/activity is generated by me or the players, and REGARDLESS of whether or not I'm pre-planning OR improving (based on a "Situation"). Both my players and I find this unsatisfying.

EXAMPLE:

we have the goal "rescue the people kidnapped from the tavern by Orcs" turns into "follow the Orks trail, then deal with them to get the hostages" which isn't even two scenes of activity.

TRIED:

Creating Antagonists w/ Goals (in the above example, Orc doesn't wants to keep his captives as slaves, but that doesn't turn into anything for the players to do besides rescue them).

Creating steps for the Antagonists a la Fronts/Dangers (Orc kidnaps people and takes them back to lair).

Didn't we do this a few years ago? Maybe someone else's thread.

There are several ways of doing this.

One way is to write each scenario step in turn, which leads the PCs along a path. The danger with this is that it soon turns into "You should do this, then do this, then do this, then the end", so the players don't have much choice with what happens. So, you would have an event (People kidnapped from the tavern by orcs), so you have the "Question people at the Tavern", "Find a clue about orc activity in the Blue Forest", "Go to the Blue Forest", "Find an abandoned orc camp", "Track orcs to their main camp", "Fight orcs to rescue hostages". In this way, you imagine how the PCs should solve the problem and build the scenario around that.

Another way would be to write the steps, as above, but allow the PCs to find their way around. So, instead of making them go through all the steps, one PC might try to find some tracks near the tavern and follow the orcs and the GM can drop the pre-prepared scenes into the scenario as and when they are encountered. This can be difficult, as the GM prepares scenes that might never be used, or PCs do things that are unexpected so the GM must invent things on the fly and improvise.

An extreme way is to not prepare anything, but just have an idea where the orcs are and improvise everything. So, the GM reacts to what the PCs do and produces scenes on the fly when and where required. This allows the PCs to solve the scenario in whatever way they want, with the GM simply arbitrating each step and deciding what happens after each one.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;940288Count Barnacle rules a small county on the seacoast, with its capital his keep and market town, known as Seaview.

Is this where we sign up for the Count Barnacle campaign? I've got a couple sheets of loose leaf, and I have sharpened the shit out of my penci. I am fired up!

Thanks all! Here's a summary of my notes from the various sites

Make the given immediate problem part of a larger, more subtle problem (i.e., Front). Ideally, add multiple, conflicting problems.
Make the NPCs and opposition more complex, with motives that can entangle the players. NPC's always want something, and may require concessions or leverage to motivate them. Add complexity to the opposition's goals (they did this bad thing because of some larger issue). In every scene, each individual wants something, and they will attempt to move the scene in a way that gets them what they want
Make the journey towards achieving the goal interesting and challenging. Are the players really passing through an "empty space" w/out people, creatures, or terrain? Journeys should include hazards (terrain, weather, encounters).
The objective / the antagonist's plans occur in a place, and are affecting and affected by it (e.g., unrelated parties that may want to cover things up or take advantage of the situation)
Use Murphy's Law (sparingly), make things go wrong (food spoilage, hit w/ poisoned arrows requiring healing)
Make the objective difficult to deal with head on, so that the players need to obtain resources or plan (e.g., antagonists outnumber them, potential allies have been set against them, allies cannot be harmed by physical weapons).
Build the problem in layers
Come up with the basic problematic situation
Add detail, asking questions and answering them. Why did the antagonists do this thing? Why were they in that situation? Who else is affected by this situation? Which antagonists have competing or secondary agendas.
Increase the difficulty. Add resources to the antagonists. What could the antagonists possibly do to protect themselves and ensure their success. Play the opposition intelligently
Conceal the necessary information (as it would be in the real world). They will need to learn, and go down other paths, as they find the real opposition. Have them encounter other issues as they do this.

EN World, Google+, TheRPGSite

Quote from: PencilBoy99;940206EXAMPLE: we have the goal "rescue the people kidnapped from the tavern by Orcs" turns into "follow the Orks trail, then deal with them to get the hostages" which isn't even two scenes of activity.

Add more obstacles.

A lot of the advice in this thread is indirectly aiming at this fundamental truth (and nothing wrong with that), but the simplest version is:

1. Add one or more obstacles which prevent the PCs from accomplishing their goal.

2. Add one or more obstacles to each of those obstacles (i.e., to prevent the PCs from accomplishing the goal of overcoming the original obstacle).

Repeat until you've reach a level of fractal complexity which feels right to you.

In your example, you've already started this process: The orcs have the captives, and the PCs will need to fight them in order to get the hostages back. To this you add the obstacle of needing to find the orcs first (by tracking them perhaps).

Don't stop: What obstacles can we add to finding them? What if they've laid a false trail? What if they've booby-trapped their path? What if they've left a rear-guard behind them that the PCs will need to fight or avoid? What if some of the captives died on the trip and the PCs will need to investigate their bodies?

And keep going: Complicate the false trail by having it lead to the lair of some of other monster. The bobby-traps are poisoned and they need to find the antidote. The rear-guard is actually made up of mind-controlled captives and the PCs need to figure out how to fight them without killing them. It looks like one of the "dead" captives was faking and there's a new set of tracks leading off into the wilderness.

One of the most basic ways to do this is to simply add a dungeon between the PCs and whatever their goal is: The dungeon can be of any arbitrary length, extending the challenge to whatever length you'd like. In this case, the orcs take the captives back to their caves. The PCs are going to have get down through all the caves in order to get to wherever the captives are. Fill those caves with as much content as you need/want.

On top of all this, don't be afraid to lie to your players.

I don't mean like that, jesus son, have a heart!

No. You set up a clear problem and instead of complicating it, it turns out that the people telling the party about the problem are mistaken... or are in fact lying.  Anyone involved could be lying about something, for some damn fool reason.  Obviously, you don't tell your players that they were just lied to.

SO the players find the orcs, kill the orcs and...

no hostages.


You don't even really need to know why there are no hostages (only if you are comfortable driving that game with no pants!... or if you REALLY suck at keeping secrets!). That's for the player characters to figure out. They don't get paid if they don't deliver the hostages safely back to their families, right? So let them tell you where the hostages are!

NO, not like that! Damn!

Listen to what the ideas they are throwing out, the plans they are making to find that information.  One thing that always goes wrong when making investigations in adventures is that players get fixated on teh 'wrong idea' and never see the naked and howling clues teh GM so carefully planted right in front of them. The solution is to make sure that the Players have the right idea... by letting them give it to you.

Of course, you let them waste time on the clearly stupid ideas, and when the do something that sounds halfway smart you pat them on the head like they were the smartest children in the spelling be and you 'reward' them with the clue you totally made up to send them in the direction that sounded best to you.... from their own ideas!!!!

THat way they'll never get too fixated on something wrong, becuase they always have the right idea somewhere in their playbook.


I know. I know.  This is utterly immoral and its cheating the players and all that.

But right now they are bored. So give it a shot.  Join the dark side.

Just remember: Even if they always have the right idea (because you cheat!) it doesn't mean they always get to win.

Actually Spike's point is good because it ties into the main thrust of advice you've been given from the beginning (from fuseboy's excellent first response,): your presentation lacks uncertainty.

The quest sounds formally given. Everyone speaks the Truth with a capital 'T' from a position of perfect knowledge. All complications between the heroic unified PC party and the path to the villainous unified orc marauders is glazed over as mere inconveniences, not real challenges. The only logical resolution is an honorable fight to the death. And so on...

There is too much certainty in presentation.

That's why rumor & encounter tables existed; that's why surprise, distance, reaction, and morale rolls added value. They shook up the world's certainty. When there are unknowns, there is doubt, which in turn manifests real choice.

You can front-load such uncertainty during preparation, or you can back-load such uncertainty through randomized content contextualization. But in the end you are as GM being asked to present a world where choice has consequence that matters. And one of the most foundational ways to make choice matter is when there is depth of potential.

Shallow context potential leads to shallow choice, which in turn leads to shallow satisfaction. Or, as Eddie Izzard illuminates, this concept is clear in his "Cake or Death?" joke. The choice is too easy.

Some basic questions I'd have about this idea just about the start of the adventure:

How did this community even pop up if it's so poorly defended?
Was there some specific reason for a lapse in the village defenses that allowed the orcs to pull off this raid?
What has now suddenly allowed for this disruption of every-day life?
How has this tribe of orcs been allowed to live in the area if they are such a threat?
Why can't the townsfolk round up a posse and hunt them down?
What is the barrier that makes this an adventure that can't just be taken up by everyone and their mother?
What happens while following the trail?
Did the orcs take any measures at all to avoid being followed?
What information can the PCs gather along the way that will make the difference between success and failure?
If the goal is to free the kidnapped people, not necessarily slay the orcs, could this by itself consist of three different activities--exploration, execution, and escape?
What are the consequences, good or bad, visited upon the heroes in the aftermath?

First, there's exactly one sentence from Spike's post I agree with: don't give your players perfect information.
From my GMing book, which might be ready this year, but probably wouldn't be...
"Don't "just give" your players perfect information for the goal they start chasing, unless it fits the setting. It doesn't fit almost any kind of fantasy setting, and the people who give you the info can be mislead, mistaken or ill-intentioned even in technologically advanced SF settings. (Just ask the SF police, they'd tell you a lot about it).
An aristocrat hiring the party to save the kidnapped princess (cliche, I know) doesn't just tell you where the princess is, when and why she was kidnapped, and what the dragon who keeps her eats.
Not that he's necessarily unwilling to share this info. He doesn't have it, or he believes he has it, but it's a rumour, prejudice, or folk belief that's not meant to inform you - just to keep you from going in the dragon's lair.
That's without even beginning to talk about "the dragon they directed you to is the wrong dragon because one of his rivals wanted to send random violent adventurers to his lair, and masquaraded as him". Which might have happened, too - though there should be at least some hints they could find (probably by talking to witnesses of the dragon's attack, or the dragon's passing towards the place of the attack, or something)."

Quote from: PencilBoy99;940206I'm still struggling with, as a GM, turning an idea or a goal into an activity with challenging, multiple steps. This is a problem for me REGARDLESS of whether the goal/activity is generated by me or the players, and REGARDLESS of whether or not I'm pre-planning OR improving (based on a "Situation"). Both my players and I find this unsatisfying.

EXAMPLE:

we have the goal "rescue the people kidnapped from the tavern by Orcs" turns into "follow the Orks trail, then deal with them to get the hostages" which isn't even two scenes of activity.

TRIED:

Creating Antagonists w/ Goals (in the above example, Orc doesn't wants to keep his captives as slaves, but that doesn't turn into anything for the players to do besides rescue them).

Creating steps for the Antagonists a la Fronts/Dangers (Orc kidnaps people and takes them back to lair).

Goal: Rescue people kidnapped from tavern by Orcs. (I might have to add that to the aforementioned book;)).

• Where do Orcs live? Is the path to their place dangerous even if you follow their trail? (You bet it is. The local gnolls are letting them pass due to a long-standing agreement between the tribes. You're obviously not covered by the agreement. Whether the Orcs also traded some of the captives in exchange for provisions is up to you, just decide it in advance. Oh, and gnoll runners are going to warn the Orcs if you attack them).
• How do you approach unseen? Approaching in an obvious manner probably means you're going to be dealt with the way Orcs deal with trespassers (hint: they feed them to their pet Ogre). Or at least, they would prepare for you if the negotiations fail. (What are the Orcs village's defenses against bands of roaming marauders and adventurers? They wouldn't even be alive if there were none! If they saw you, a frontal attack should be hard - and I mean really fucking hard, by Tucker's name! Hint: cover, traps and hit-and-run tactics have worked for many tribes in history, and they would work for your Orcs, too.  Example: make your Orcs live in a hill in a swamp that you reach by a narrow, winding, underwater trope. There are caltrops under the water, too...in places the Orcs know, but you don't. Incidentally, they make you stop in places where the Orc sentries can shoot at you from behind cover, and Orc berserkers might charge you with long weapons...and possibly push you off the trope. Check the stats of quicksand in whatever system you're using, and combine them with drowning: that's a swamp for you.
  
• If you negotiate...do you really expect Orcs, of all tribes, to have reasonable demands? (Kobolds might have, but then a frontal attack against Tucker's kobolds would be even harder).
• Whatever your approach, how much time elapsed? Some of the captives might have Stockholm syndrome by now. (If in doubt, assign a probability and roll). Variant: are you sure all of them were really "captives" and not "escapees"? (That's information that the quest-givers might well omit intentionally, too. But they still aren't paying you unless you bring them back). Even if no such complications arise, did some captives get traded already (possibly to repay a debt)? If yes, you have to go there and free them, too...but now you also have to make sure the captives are clothed, fed and warm along the way. Oh, and if you make them tag along, forget about stealth.
• When you return them, do the NPCs have the money to pay you as you promised? Or did they overreach their means? What do you do?

Just some ideas.

Quote from: Opaopajr;940684"Cake or Death?" The choice is too easy.

Death. Er, I mean cake!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;940764Death. Er, I mean cake!

In the Forgotten Realms it would be DeathCake. Because in FR even your damn pillow is probably really a monster waiting to eat you. (No. Im not joking. Its in one of the FR MM books. Killer pillows.)

And with FR's occasionally lazy naming convention, it would be called DeathCake! And in 4e D&D you'd get an additional descriptor to create splatted variance, like DeathCake Skirmisher, DeathCake Luchador, & DeathCake Overmind!

Dire half-dragon Deathcake.

Joined by the killer childrens toys, the killer hat, and the killer piece of paper.

In light of this recent thread (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?36278-Where-has-D-amp-D-gone) about the failings of more recent editions of D&D - rules but not many settings or adventures - I think this is a good thread to dig up. If the company isn't producing what you need, you have to do it yourself.

Quote from: Opaopajr;940814And with FR's occasionally lazy naming convention, it would be called DeathCake! And in 4e D&D you'd get an additional descriptor to create splatted variance, like DeathCake Skirmisher, DeathCake Luchador, & DeathCake Overmind!

Deathcake Luchador, that should be your new forum title. :D

Quote from: fuseboy;940210The problem is that you're setting up pins for them to knock down. Instead, take a different approach.

1. Come up with the basic problem situation (orcs have stolen some people)

2. Add detail. Where do the orcs live? What's the world like in between? Where were they stolen from? What other groups are nearby? Who else cares that the orcs are being bad? Who is interested in propping up the orcs, if only for selfish reasons? Who else wants the stolen people back, but is controlling, manipulative, and/or has secondary goals that might threaten the mission?

3. Now up the difficulty. What if there are too many orcs for them to take in a fight? What if the orcs are few, but tough? Do the orcs have layers of defense? Flunkies? Are they moving soon? (Have they already moved?) Who can they call on for help? What else would try if you were a group of orcs and some badasses shows up to try to steal your lunch?

Don't solve the problem for the players (even in your head), that's their job. Let them thrash around a bit looking for allies, clues, obstacles, advantages.

This is still possibly the best advice you've gotten. Everything else does nothing but expand on these points with the poster's favorite words.

I agree with Tod13. Fuseboy wins the Deathcake Luchador award!

That would be a great forum name.

If only we could get a Wayne Reynold's-esque rendering of DeathCake Luchador... we could make it a prize or something. :cool:

Quote from: Opaopajr;940684Actually Spike's point is good because it ties into the main thrust of advice you've been given from the beginning (from fuseboy's excellent first response,): your presentation lacks uncertainty.

The quest sounds formally given. Everyone speaks the Truth with a capital 'T' from a position of perfect knowledge. All complications between the heroic unified PC party and the path to the villainous unified orc marauders is glazed over as mere inconveniences, not real challenges. The only logical resolution is an honorable fight to the death. And so on...

There is too much certainty in presentation.

That's why rumor & encounter tables existed; that's why surprise, distance, reaction, and morale rolls added value. They shook up the world's certainty. When there are unknowns, there is doubt, which in turn manifests real choice.

You can front-load such uncertainty during preparation, or you can back-load such uncertainty through randomized content contextualization. But in the end you are as GM being asked to present a world where choice has consequence that matters. And one of the most foundational ways to make choice matter is when there is depth of potential.

Shallow context potential leads to shallow choice, which in turn leads to shallow satisfaction.

Quoted because fuck yeah.

Quote from: estar;940211Maybe you need to come up with a more complex situation than arriving at a tavern where a few hours ago a bunch of orcs dragged hostages into the wild.

For example

A bunch of orcs raided a roadside tavern three days ago. This section of road is not patrolled well. The local baron been pocketing some of the royal funds that supposed to go to hire guard. The PCs happened to come across the tavern and find out from the tavernkeeper about the raid. He quite worried about his own reputation and throw himself on the mercy of the PC. He has some coin but best he can do is offer a room as a regular place to stay for free for the party.

The PCs goes off and find the days old trails and starts investigating. They manage to track the trail back to a small hamlet of orcs on the edges of the Blood Forest. After a sharp fight in which the PC triumph, they find out the hostages were sold as slave to one Ogg the Bold, an ogre who lives deeper in the forest. They also learn enough to get a sense there is an entire evil society living in the forest. That Ogg the Bold is a small but important slave merchant.

Luckily the PCs learn where Ogg lives. They have a window of opportunity to get the victims back but need to be properly equipped and prepared. They go back to the tavern and get geared up. During the course of explaining things to the tavernkeeper, one of the baron's men overhears. The conversation is reported and the Baron is worried that the PCs will eventually talk to a Royal Offical. So he begin preparations.

The PCs leaves and enters the Blood Forest. After a challenging adventure they managed to liberate the hostages and kill Ogg. Also learning more about the Blood Forest including the fact that a Hill Giant Chief, Matdock, is planning a pillaging raid on the Baron's Keep. When they bring the hostage outs, they are met by a small force from the Baron who have been ordered to intercept the PCs and kill everybody covering up his incompetence.

Comment

I realize that I wrote this as a story but what you do is setup the pieces. The tavern, the baron, the orc hamlet, the ogre steading, the blood forest, the hill giants. Come up with the plans and the interconnections. Then develop the initial event, the kidnapping.

Then afterwards you play it by ear. It may be that the party slaughters the orc hamlet and totally misses the fact that the hostages were sold to an ogre. Or any number of possible problems or failure mode.

But by detailing all this you create a mini sandbox that could go any number of ways. To make things easier you can use your experience to make predictions about how you think your players will act. Add a little leeway and prepare accordingly. Just don't be welded to a particular chain of events.

I'm going to steal that but modify the orcs and ogres into nasty knights for Pendragon. I'll give you 20% commission on whatever I get paid. So probably zero.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;940288Count Barnacle rules a small county on the seacoast, with its capital his keep and market town, known as Seaview.

Okay, so yesterday I sat down and watched the video below to get +1 on DMing skills. I decided to use this thing I'd written in ten minutes as the premise for the game, and just randomly generate the rest. We had lots of fun. Using 3d6 down the line, they rolled up one fighter and two magic-users, luckily both wizards rolled up different spells.

The party decided to take just Johann, but also found a paladin Ivyst who was fleeing a Princess wrongly (she says) accused of arson. They stayed briefly in Betanta Fell, an iron mining town in the wilderness, and from there got a guide Gant, who had many professions behind him - man-at-arms, miner, gambler, dogfighting trainer and drunkard. The party didn't want to watch the dogfighting, for some reason.

Following the player-decided principle of "you don't get a name until you survive your first combat encounter", at twenty minutes before the game's end they insisted on entering an ancient temple and trying to prise the gem eye out of the four-armed statue of a giant ogre-god, which of course came alive and tried to cut them to pieces. But thanks to the NPC tanks they prevailed.

Where will it all lead? I have no fucking clue whatsoever. And a sandbox DM has to be cool with that. See the vid.

[video=youtube;EkXMxiAGUWg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkXMxiAGUWg[/youtube]

The video is worth a watch.

One thing worth doing to build player agency and the feeling of a living world is to prepare several possible plot hooks and let the players decide which one they want to follow.
The kidnapped tavern patrons taken by orcs coud be one. A trading caravan heading for the dwarven mines stopping at the tavern for beer could be another.  Make a few notes about what each hook might lead to, but don't worry about fully developing the details until the players actually choose one.  Keep the unused ideas as you may be able to change a few details and use them later.

It also comes down to point of view.

The players won't necessarily view something as easy that the GM does. You really have to be conscious of the difficulty of mysteries and puzzles within your game. And err on the side of making them too easy by your own perception.

The players are not you. They don't have your point of view. They aren't looking at the situation through your eyes or perspective. And that's a really important thing to be and stay aware of.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;940288You can also think, will Chief Stonefist mistreat engineer Harold, or will he pay him well and give him access to captured wine and food, or women if Harold is interested? So maybe the guy they're rescuing doesn't want to be rescued? And willing or not, will his advice help the orcs have better defences against assault?

Last night this adventure more or less concluded.

So Theo came back to gaming, and rolled up a character. He got a fighter with Strength 17. He appeared as a prisoner in a room whose owlbears the PCs had just killed, hog-tied, smeared with pig fat and wearing a leather mask. Was he being marinaded, or something worse? They equipped him with the gear of fallen foes. Orcish voices were heard in the next room. "Don't be stupid, I'm not going in there, they just killed the owlbears!"

"I CHAAAARGE!" cried Theo and went running in to find 11 orcs. They promptly knocked him down to -4 hit points. Then the rest of the party caught up, the magic-user cast sleep and they quietly slew all the orcs. They stabilised Theo to stop him bleeding out. Now, BtB in AD&D if you go below 0HP then even after healing you spend a week shuffling about mumbling and not able to do anything. They got tired of having weeks off, so I said, "Okay, you can act but... if you cast a spell or try to carry anything or make a roll, that's exerting yourself, you may bust the sutures or whatever, so you make a System Shock roll - if you pass all is good, if you fail you die."

So they make their way through the dungeon with their orc PW and Theo shuffling along behind, and using owlbear heads and gold they intimidate or bribe all the orcs between them and Stonefist's throneroom. The door is stuck.

"I bash in the door!" cries Theo, and rolls 2 on a 1d6 to open, it flings open, giving the party 2 segments of surprise.
"Okay, now make your system shock roll. Con 9, so that's 60%."
Theo rolls... 83.
So he died kicking in a door. He was slain by interior furnishings.

The party bursts in. They see great braziers burning coals lighting the room, a distant drum thumping slowly and rhythmically. Demonic statues are carved into the walls. A dozen naked but for loincloths orcish eunuchs stand about the place with halberds. Women in diaphanous robes and chains are clustered about on the left, Harold the engineer sitting at a feasting table caressing their thighs absently, his daughter Sally sitting next to him looking disgruntled. On benches are the butchered remains of men. To their side on the stairs down into this pit on iniquity is a great boiling cauldron of split pea and hand soup. Ahead them ogres stand on either side of a great wooden throne, whereon sprawls the largest orc they have ever seen, fully seven foot tall with a great belly, naked but for a loincloth and massive gauntlets, absently dropping gems through his great fist onto the floor, tossing them like a a seer casting bones for the fates.

Women scream in terror, running about. The engineer stands up shouting something, his daughter cowers in a corner.

The magic-user Paul casts sleep, and the eunuchs tumble over next to their halberds. They rush forward, hacking into Stonefist as he rises, blades piercing his legs and belly, darts peppering his chest and arms. His great fists cross and uppercut, and crash into the jaw of the henchman paladin Ivyst, sending her flying back six feet to sprawl unconscious on her back, next cracking the ribs of Johann the son of Count Barnacle, making him crumple to the floor, and finally Jon the cleric goes down like a sack of halfling shoes, clumsy, unwanted and unloved.

Meanwhile the men-at-arms are engaged in melee with the ogres, and the magic-user Paul, burned out of spells, frantically tosses burning oil about, accidentally burns two harem women, their silken robes flaming up with their screams of pain and terror. An ogre goes down, burning, and the second picks up the cauldron of split pea and hand and flings it at the magic-user, badly burning him.

Now Bagalog Stonefist steps forward to end it, and the thief Francois leaps on his back and stabs frantically, sending blood spurting from his neck as he tries to prise Francois from it. Stonefist falls. The surviving ogre tries to drag his body away, but Paul pelts him with darts and oil until he, too, falls.

The battle is won, as is much phat loot.

If Conan the Barbarian taught me anything it's that however you set up the adventure, in the end we all want to kill our enemies while they're having a cannibalistic orgy.

Hey, that's a cool video. Of course, he could've presented either book either way, but it's a good contrast that he did. Who is that guy?

Matt Coleville. He's one of my favorite media D&D guys. He runs old school style games with lots of politics and factions involved, and dispenses with advice on his channel to give people a different taste of D&D compared to Matt Mercer. They're all good friends.

Thanks  all!

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;967394Matt Coleville. He's one of my favorite media D&D guys. He runs old school style games with lots of politics and factions involved, and dispenses with advice on his channel to give people a different taste of D&D compared to Matt Mercer. They're all good friends.

Cool, thanks. I don't play D&D much but the insights can be used in pretty well any RPG.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;967394Matt Coleville. He's one of my favorite media D&D guys. He runs old school style games with lots of politics and factions involved, and dispenses with advice on his channel to give people a different taste of D&D compared to Matt Mercer. They're all good friends.

Colville is definitely my favourite online Youtube D&D advice giver. Mercer is not bad but he doesn't do the deeper more thoughtful stuff, his focus is generally on presentation. And there are a lot of terrible "Youtube GMs" giving horrible railroad/fudge/illusionist type GM advice I really dislike. Colville isn't in that paradigm at all, though neither is he some Old School Viking Hat GM - like me, he'll kill your PC but he'll feel bad doing it. :D

I'm still grateful to this thread for inspiring that campaign. I'm starting another one next week here in Melbourne at Goodgames, anyone else around?