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I get the feeling there was some giant hubbub in the misty past on RPG.Net about Exalted but I know fuck-all about said hubbub.

I know what the game is like, but it seems to be something of a sore spot over there.

Can someone fill me in on the history of the forum drama there? I feel like asking on .Net itself will just start a fight somehow.

Also: no idea if this is in the right subforum for this question.

It seems to me that quite a lot of the mods and 'inner circle' posters have worked on it in some capacity or other.

Quote from: Zak S;612127I get the feeling there was some giant hubbub in the misty past on RPG.Net about Exalted but I know fuck-all about said hubbub.

I know what the game is like, but it seems to be something of a sore spot over there.

Can someone fill me in on the history of the forum drama there? I feel like asking on .Net itself will just start a fight somehow.

Also: no idea if this is in the right subforum for this question.

As far as I can tell there is a lot of "love the setting, hate the system" going on.

I get the feeling that the game REPRESENTED something something in some gamer culture war but I can't figure out what or why or who was on what side or anything....

Quote from: Zak S;612132I get the feeling that the game REPRESENTED something something in some gamer culture war but I can't figure out what or why or who was on what side or anything....

I do recall it being quite the obsession for a long while. Like everything should be run using Exalted.

And then at some point everyone started hating the system.

Quote from: Zak S;612132I get the feeling that the game REPRESENTED something something in some gamer culture war but I can't figure out what or why or who was on what side or anything....

The established philosophy of the game is that standard fantasy gaming tropes of starting at low level, not being more dangerous than sewer rats, having limited/no magic initially and being heavily based on Lieber, Tolkien, Carter, et al is anathema and fantasy that has characters starting at the demi- or minor god level (and going up from there) and being heavily based on Anime is best.

This is gonna rub some people the wrong way.

Quote from: Piestrio;612130As far as I can tell there is a lot of "love the setting, hate the system" going on.

Not indy forgey enough, probably. 'Needs moar metagame edgy mechanics, dude.'

Quote from: thedungeondelver;612134The established philosophy of the game is that standard fantasy gaming tropes of starting at low level, not being more dangerous than sewer rats, having limited/no magic initially and being heavily based on Lieber, Tolkien, Carter, et al is anathema and fantasy that has characters starting at the demi- or minor god level (and going up from there) and being heavily based on Anime is best.

1. And people fought about this on RPG.net?

2. And, if so: so it was basically a proto-4e Edition War with all the same lines drawn?

Quote from: Zak S;612132I get the feeling that the game REPRESENTED something something in some gamer culture war but I can't figure out what or why or who was on what side or anything....

Not really.  It was just a fun game.  It didn't serve any larger purpose in the war versus whomever and whomever, except for a lot of people who really wanted a RIFTS-like kitchen sink game but didn't want to play in Palladium's system anymore.  That, for most of the people I knew, was the real attraction -- it was unapologetically a game that allowed you to play a guy with badass martial arts and a giant sword fighting chthonic beasts and kung fu demigods, with the occasional giant robot, death ray satellite, and dwarf with a minigun thrown in.

When it first came out, it had a very strong, very positive fanbase at RPG.net, but sometime just before or just after 2ed came out, the whole thing soured (arguably because the people doing rules for the new edition were not tracking them with consistency anymore, or because of substantive changes in 2e, or what-have-you.)  The game seemingly got more popular, with more threadspace taken, but the vibes were far more critical and nasty, until a lot of people just checked out.  

When WW got bought by CCP, the game slowly began to strangle on the vine until some fans basically started working on it, at which point there's been a handful of releases with a lot of positive response.  They're now working on a 3rd edition, so people are doing the normal pre-release dance of either being hopeful or critical.  

As I said, the initial fanbase at RPG.net was one of the coolest ones on the web, for my money -- the only things I can compare it to are the old Fading Suns mailing list, and the Delta Green and Unknown Armies fanbases.  But nowadays, I don't even read RPG.net's Exalted threads, and if I want to get a read off of people, I check out the WW Exalted forums.

(In the interest of honesty, I've worked as a freelancer for both previous editions of Exalted, and wrote a portion of one of those recent releases, Shards of the Exalted Dream.  And if you're going to take the time to tell me the game sucks, honestly, I don't care.  I freely admit it's not for everybody, and that supplements have been hit or miss over the years.)

Quote from: Zak S;6121371. And people fought about this on RPG.net?

2. And, if so: so it was basically a proto-4e Edition War with all the same lines drawn?

1. Don't know; people over there will fight over anything until the mods pick a side, step in, and ban the people they don't agree with.

2. I don't think so.  I think it was more wrapped up in a lot of deep WW "game politics" that would require multiple searches and hours of research I in no way am going to conduct to disentangle.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;612138And if you're going to take the time to tell me the game sucks, honestly, I don't care.

Furthest thing from my mind.

Just curious about why it seems like such a sore spot rather than just another game some people like and some people don't.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;612134The established philosophy of the game is that standard fantasy gaming tropes of starting at low level, not being more dangerous than sewer rats, having limited/no magic initially and being heavily based on Lieber, Tolkien, Carter, et al is anathema and fantasy that has characters starting at the demi- or minor god level (and going up from there) and being heavily based on Anime is best.

This is gonna rub some people the wrong way.

Not just "anime", originally, but also ancient greek, indian, etc. mythological heroes. Then it got all Dragonball Z later on. But also apparently has rules for handling lowest-of-the-low mortals?

Anyway, it seems like less a fight, more a gradual disappointment.

I think it was pretty much how FVB laid out.

One thing i have noticed about the RPGnet Exalted fans (and i don't know if it is also representative of other online Exalted communities) is that what seemed to be a not insubstantial portion of threads and posters seemed more interested in the setting cannon and metaplot than the actual game.

I got back into gaming around the time that Exalted was transitioning from 1e to 2e, I guess.

The game didn't hold much interest for me, and at most I've glanced at some quick-start rules. Well, that and the infamous Savant & Sorcerer cover. I've gotten the impression that dislike of the game comes from a few things:

1. The rules sounded like a mess, with people complaining about combining Charms (whatever those are) and a bunch of other junk to roll gigantic dicepools and calculate combat results.

2. It's got a strong special snowflake vibe. In fact, some character types are defined as being one of the only X in the setting. (Which, actually, I think is fine, but if I could put my finger on it, I'd still say that special-snowflake-ism is a turn-off.)

3. There's the weeaboo angle, which at least for me is different from being averse to anime. I mean, I like a lot of anime. But the type of anime which features superspecial teenagers who emote a lot and who win out in the end because of a story logic that says "If you want it hard enough and just beeeelieeve, you can do anything include beat the bad guy's magic spells" turns me off. Maybe I'm off-base on this, since I'm really just going on surface impressions.

4. For a while, it was the game that got recommended in every single "what system should I use for X" thread. Every single one.

5. It was by White Wolf.

6. Rebecca Borgstrom did at least one of the supplements.

7. Overall publication structure was very splat-y. You buy a book, you can play a given (set of) character types. Ad infinitum.

Anecdotally and third or fourth hand, I seem to recall a conversation here or on Pundit's blog where someone said that "Exalted is an okay game, it's just played by the worst sort of people."

Whatever, I enjoyed this summary (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Exalted) of the setting's history. I have no idea if it's accurate.

Quote from: Zak S;612140Furthest thing from my mind.

Oh, please don't take offense, that wasn't aimed at you.

QuoteJust curious about why it seems like such a sore spot rather than just another game some people like and some people don't.

There's a lot of history over a lot of threads, and a lot of people are very wedded to their view of the game, which causes a lot of the disconnect.  People will just argue past each other for page after page.  In addition, a lot of people really loved it, so when it let them down, they really took it personally.  And given the rules dysfunction that popped up, imagine the worst parts of a D&D3 or 4 rules debate with the angst that took place over Mage: The Ascension's Revised edition.  It's like a perfect storm created to generate flamewars.

Quote from: Ladybird;612141Not just "anime", originally, but also ancient greek, indian, etc. mythological heroes. Then it got all Dragonball Z later on.

I always got the impression that yes, it was "influenced" by those mythos - as they were represented in various anime (RG Veda and Orion, to name a couple).  I feel the game always had it's anime on, full blast, all the time.

QuoteBut also apparently has rules for handling lowest-of-the-low mortals?

I think the rules mention something about "hey, you could totally play a normal human, just for a laugh!  Just remember to stand out of the way when the real heroes start fighting!" - but it's been years since I even cracked the rulebook TBH.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;6121456. Rebecca Borgstrom did at least one of the supplements.

Who is she and what does she represent to people who have a problem with her?

Quote from: thedungeondelver;612147I think the rules mention something about "hey, you could totally play a normal human, just for a laugh!  Just remember to stand out of the way when the real heroes start fighting!" - but it's been years since I even cracked the rulebook TBH.

The initial 1st edition ruleset, which is the one I still use until 3e comes out, had a very elegant system -- the basic ruleset was designed for terribly ugly sword & sorcery brutality, with very short health tracks, ugly bleeding, crippling wounds, primitve-world medical treatment, and nasty infections taking you out if you got injured too badly.  Sorcery was nearly totally off-limits, prayers were rarely answered without bribery or sacrifice, etc.

Over this framework, you had the rules for Exalted, which basically said, "Okay, for these guys, nobody gets infections, their wounds stop bleeding, they can increase their health tracks, and they have magical Charms which allow them to do stuff like turn peasants into special forces troops over a handful of weeks."  

The 1e skeleton was pure ugly brutality, but the game on top was about playing the top-tier heroes of the setting, but if you wanted, you could strip it down and play at the level of normal humans any time you wanted.  My PenDragon-Blooded game, which combined Pendragon's campaign framework with a very low-powered game on the frontier, really used that fucked-up low-level framework to good measure.  It'd still be my choice for a game like ASOIAF or Conan, frankly.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;612147I think the rules mention something about "hey, you could totally play a normal human, just for a laugh!  Just remember to stand out of the way when the real heroes start fighting!" - but it's been years since I even cracked the rulebook TBH.

To be honest, the game is *much* more playable if you run solely for mortals or at least weaker characters. After a certain power level the game became rocket tag, where offensive ability rapidly outclassed defense, and as such it was vitally important for a viable character to have a contingency for any situation and combat came down to who had the most motes of essence (basically mana points). They improved that somewhat in 2.5 by making defensive abilities beefier while making the really powerful stuff cost more, but that by and large was just a stopgap measure. So, 3rd Edition.

Quote from: Zak SWho is she and what does she represent to people who have a problem with her?

She writes Nobilis, a diceless roleplaying game, and Pundit hates her because reasons. Which is why there's antipathy towards her on this site as well. :p

Something something THE SWINE, basically.

EDIT: There's another reason for conflict when it comes to the Exalted fanbase, and that's that when White Wolf was bought by CCP Exalted was basically left hanging. In order to address this the freelancers writing for the line created a group called the Ink Monkies which basically released a lot of new crunch and setting material. They also released official books, like Glories of the Most High and Masters of Jade. The response was mixed: some of the things they wrote weren't well balanced and there was definitely a lot of antipathy towards their attempts to explain some of the mysterious things in the setting that were originally meant as blanks that were to be filled in by GM's. For example, "The Daystar" which revealed that the setting's sun was a literal warmachine with a dragon sleeping inside it to make it hot. Most people rather just liked the idea of the sun being the sun.

Quote from: Zak S;612152Who is she and what does she represent to people who have a problem with her?

I think she's a computer scientist of no small brain, but also the author of Nobilis. I can't fully explain what annoys people about Nobilis, though it seems it has something to do with:

Amber
Bizarre terminology
Some sort of mechanic that borders on story-gamey regimentation of GM powers

I'm sure Grimgent will be by shortly to explain, and by explain I mean make entirely unclear yet also illustrate exactly the problem that people have with Nobilis.

Quote from: One Horse Town;612142I think it was pretty much how FVB laid out.

One thing i have noticed about the RPGnet Exalted fans (and i don't know if it is also representative of other online Exalted communities) is that what seemed to be a not insubstantial portion of threads and posters seemed more interested in the setting cannon and metaplot than the actual game.

I had a lot of fun with it during the playtest and during the original release, I want to say... Origins 2003-2004?

I liked the original setting, and the fast pace. Never did get the core Rulebook until after 2nd ed. came out, and the changes really bogged down the play, so I stopped playing this around 2006 or so.

It was good, but there was so many disputes around playing this, I switched to playing L5R.

All I remember was that people thought it was the shit, and then this cover came out and all hell broke loose

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_LSIlUCixAQ0/SiRPSznn3mI/AAAAAAAAAhg/1FqkOidF_AA/s400/ExaltedSavantandSorceror.jpg)

That was certainly a big part of it, yes.

But from what I can tell, RPG.net breaking up with Teh New Hawtness was because a lot of people (including me) thought a deliberate pastiche of Western fantasy, wuxia and Hindu demigod drama was an awesome idea, and then we made the mistake of actually reading the rules.  :D

JG

It was an RPG.net darling, that soured.
Bitches can't hate, something they never loved, so very, very much.

Quote from: James Gillen;612256That was certainly a big part of it, yes.

But from what I can tell, RPG.net breaking up with Teh New Hawtness was because a lot of people (including me) thought a deliberate pastiche of Western fantasy, wuxia and Hindu demigod drama was an awesome idea, and then we made the mistake of actually reading the rules.  :D

JG

THis is of course a heinous and outrageous lie.

It is impossible to read that which does not exist!  There's 500+ pages of Naruto meets Fullmetal Alchemist fanfic, but no rules to be found at all.  You take that back.

Quote from: Zak S;612152Who is she and what does she represent to people who have a problem with her?

One of the worst writers working today.  Awful pretentious tripe to a level that defies all reason and coherency, but nonetheless looks clever enough on the surface to get swallowed up by the shallow flash-obsessed posters on RPGnet.  

If you ever want to give yourself an almost Gor-level aneurysm, check out "Hitherby Dragons" some time in Google or whatever other search engine you use.

As for Exalted, it was basically the Official RPGnet System for a very long time, to the extent that it drowned out other game discussion and had a number of people desperately lobbying for a subforum for the game, as the main forum had practically become to White Wolf what ENWorld is to Wizards.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;612387THis is of course a heinous and outrageous lie.

It is impossible to read that which does not exist!  There's 500+ pages of Naruto meets Fullmetal Alchemist fanfic, but no rules to be found at all.  You take that back.

No, it has rules, based on the transitional period between oWoD "Storyteller" and nWoD "Storytelling."
It's just that in the Second Edition, they decided that those rules didn't have detail, and they added so many more that I find it impossible to play.  And I play HERO System and Star Fleet Battles.  :D

JG

Quote from: J Arcane;612390One of the worst writers working today.  Awful pretentious tripe to a level that defies all reason and coherency, but nonetheless looks clever enough on the surface to get swallowed up by the shallow flash-obsessed posters on RPGnet.  

If you ever want to give yourself an almost Gor-level aneurysm, check out "Hitherby Dragons" some time in Google or whatever other search engine you use.

I would agree.

Quote from: Zachary The First;612412I would agree.

Her main habit that drives me nuts is that creates a ton of jargon and uses words in non conventional ways but doesn't get around to defining these news terms until sometimes chapters after she starts using them rendering most of the material incomprehensible until you can go back and translate.

I will say that personally she seems like a nice enough person. I just can't wrap my head around her writing style.

Quote from: Nexus;612413I just can't wrap my head around her writing style.

It's what i like to call 'smoke & mirrors' writing. Labyrinthine, arcane, gibberish, but with just enough knowing pretension to it to make some stupid people think it's meaningful.

Quote from: One Horse Town;612416It's what i like to call 'smoke & mirrors' writing. Labyrinthine, arcane, gibberish, but with just enough knowing pretension to it to make some stupid people think it's meaningful.

It's like a photo-negative of Gary Gygax's writing style; Gary colored his writing with baroque words and phrases.  That's all Borgstrom's work is.  Imagine ordering a peppersteak and getting a heaping bowl of black peppercorns with a little blob of meat somewhere inside.

Quote from: One Horse Town;612416with just enough knowing pretension to it to make some stupid people think it's meaningful.

This is exactly what I've always thought of movies like American Beauty and Donnie Darko.

The illusion of meaning is not meaning!

I ended up bowing out of in depth discussion of Exalted on rpg.net save for some peripheral commentary due in on small part that if I wanted mechanical and setting discussion I have the White Wolf forums, with far far less assholes involved compared to rpg.net. Particularly due to a lack of "Yes I'm threadcrapping Exalted threads and will outright say I am." on the White Wolf forums. Also it helps they banned Jon Chung so that's a plus.

As an aside, there's a new gamer in my group who loves AD&D but must never, ever discover Exalted.  If she does, we're doomed.

Borgstrom wrote Nobilis, right?

Quote from: Benoist;612434Borgstrom wrote Nobilis, right?

Yes, she did

Quote from: One Horse Town;612416It's what i like to call 'smoke & mirrors' writing. Labyrinthine, arcane, gibberish, but with just enough knowing pretension to it to make some stupid people think it's meaningful.

That's the GNS to a "T". "Smoke & Mirrors" pisses me off whenever I read it. I'm even more pissed off when people insist that obscurity = wisdom or insight. Here's the rule:

Just because it's hard to understand, doesn't mean it's insightful.

Applies to movies, music, and all other forms of communication. "Smoke & Mirrors" can be found everywhere.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;612454That's the GNS to a "T". "Smoke & Mirrors" pisses me off whenever I read it. I'm even more pissed off when people insist that obscurity = wisdom or insight. Here's the rule:

Just because it's hard to understand, doesn't mean it's insightful.

Applies to movies, music, and all other forms of communication. "Smoke & Mirrors" can be found everywhere.

Or to put it another way, if you can't blind them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.

Quote from: The Traveller;612459if you can't blind them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.

Based on your posts, this should be your sig.

To understand the rise and fall of exalted's popularity on RPG.net, or at least souring, since even now it retains a pretty strong fanbase, you need to understand the Fucking Enormous Spoiler Threads*. There had been ones like them before, but Exalted was the first game to really institutionalise them into these mini-communities within the larger forums that started months before a book's release, and then often continued to rage weeks afterwards as well.

The first and biggest of them all was helped along by a particularly amusing troll of the kind you simply couldn't get with today's moderation, as they'd be stamped out before they got the chance to rile people up this much, but subsequent ones gathered a momentum of their own as well, often helped along by the official writers.

Here's a timeline of the biggest ones. If you have a few days to follow them through, you should get a clear picture of both what made us fall in love with it at the start, and what soured people on it as time went on.


http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?53388-Necro-R-Borgstrom-Any-Sidereal-spoilers-for-us

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?86272-Exalted-Players-guide-spoilers-and-discussion

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?97175-Why-is-Exalted-so-popular

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?115348-Exalted-Savant-and-Sorcerer-sheet-is-up

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?116774-Exalted-The-Fair-Folk-Official-Teaser-Thread

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?159473-Exalted-The-Alchemicals-Official-Teaser-Thread

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?229609-Exalted-second-edition-official-spoiler-thread

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?249557-Exalted-Why-did-do-the-Lunars-suck

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?252195-Exalted-2nd-Does-anyone-already-have-it

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?258826-Exalted-Wonders-of-a-Lost-Age

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?276057-Exalted-Anyone-got-the-new-dragon-blooded-book-yet

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?284267-Exalted-Auto-kun-creep-continues

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?319835-Exalted-Lunars-First-Impressions

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?356958-Exalted-Disappointed-by-Sidereals

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?388528-Exalted-Abyssals

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?393443-I-can-has-Dreamz-of-the-First-Age-Yes-I-canz

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?443803-Exalted-Infernals-Spoilers-I-Mean-It-This-Time!

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?498930-Exalted-Ze-Alchemicals-book-I-haz-it!

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?529500-Exalted-Return-of-the-Scarlet-Empress-is-out!

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?610143-Exalted-Reasons-to-dislike-Solars-(and-how-you-d-fix-them)

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?639128-Exalted-3rd-edition-What-do-you-absolutely-not-want-to-see


*Not an official acronym

Quote from: Kaz;612422This is exactly what I've always thought of movies like American Beauty and Donnie Darko.

The illusion of meaning is not meaning!

Donnie Darko is a great movie precisely because it's incomprehensible mystery captures perfectly the feeling of portentiousness that is such a part of adolescence.  See also Brick in which the high school characters talk like characters in a noir film.  It's a world way from American Beauty which is just pretentious.

(You actually can get the full explanation for what is going on in Donnie Darko - it all makes sense but adds nothing whatsover to the experience of watching the film.)

Never minded Moran much when it came to Exalted. I've not read her other rpg material and most of her Exalted contributions were never terribly esoteric. The 1e Sidereal base Charmset was marked as a highpoint in the line and areas of issue were for the most part, a result of the core system being poor.

Quote from: Kaz;612422This is exactly what I've always thought of movies like American Beauty and Donnie Darko.

The illusion of meaning is not meaning!

I never did Grok Donny Darko, or understand why it was popular. American Beauty however, is a masterpiece of satire and irony that clearly demonstrates the uniquely American obsession of creating trivial drama in order to enhance an otherwise meaningless existence.

Quote from: GameDaddy;612485American Beauty however, is a masterpiece of satire and irony that clearly demonstrates the uniquely American obsession of creating trivial drama in order to enhance an otherwise meaningless existence.

Quote from: Dog Quixote;612463Donnie Darko is a great movie precisely because it's incomprehensible mystery captures perfectly the feeling of portentiousness that is such a part of adolescence.

You guys are KILLING me.

:D

Meanwhile, I'll be over here with my Jim Jarmusch films.

Quote from: Kaz;612422This is exactly what I've always thought of movies like American Beauty and Donnie Darko.

The illusion of meaning is not meaning!

I found great meaning in Mena Suvari's breasts.

Back when Exalted was first released, the White Wolf forums pretty much sucked, so RPGNet became the default Exalted forum. There were tons of great threads on the game.

I honestly think the release of 2e is what killed the game for many people. I was a huge fan of 1e up until the Lunars book, which was just trash. Exalted also began to get way too over-explored as time went on, which also hurt it's standing.

Quote from: Benoist;612136Not indy forgey enough, probably. 'Needs moar metagame edgy mechanics, dude.'

No, just shitty, shitty system that really isn't designed to handle that sort of scale, and piles ever-increasing complexity upon itself.

Quote from: Kiero;612525No, just shitty, shitty system that really isn't designed to handle that sort of scale, and piles ever-increasing complexity upon itself.

Mechanical, I don't think Exalted does one thing right. The combat system was clunky and slow, the crafting rules were not well thought out, the artifact system was inspiring, but not equal to in value, the magic system was not worth investing, the martial arts system was either too good or not worth investing, the social conflict system didn't have teeth and was rather boring, the emotional traits didn't really have a point and the game required buckets of dice. The game failed on every account.

Oh, let's not even bring up how long it took to make an NPC.

I ran a three-year-long Exalted campaign using the game's 1st Edition, and ended it just after 2nd Edition arrived.  It's a good thing that I did because the mechanics were already starting to strain, as was the setting premises, and that was with just one Perfect Brotherhood of Dragon-Blooded Dynasts (and a Sidereal PC who tried very, very hard to stay under cover; he provided much comic relief).  Had things gone on, as I intended, the follow-up would have broken both elements within a year.

Second Edition did little to allay my concerns, so I sat out this edition, and now I am cautious about this new Third Edition.  I really want to see folks that know statistics, probability, etc. hammering away at the forge of mechanical design while economists, geographers, geologists, religious scholars, occultists, martial artists, philosophers and so on all contribute their expertise.  (Graduate students and top-tier undergraduates are cheap and good enough in terms of expertise.)

I want a business manager planning the releases NOW.  I want that man to be able to clearly, concisely answer questions like "What is the expected buy-in?", "What is your new user acquisition strategy?" and "What is your user retention strategy?" with things like "Players spend $30 and buy one boxed set.", "A marketing campaign aimed at college-aged young adults who fit both the Classics-familiar and the Anime/Wuxia-familiar demographics, w/ a gameplay experience that replicates the key features of both sources." and "We've signed a contract with the RPGA to launch a Living Creation Campaign, where participating players will influence future product releases by their gameplay results at major conventions over the fiscal year."

In other words, I want a fucking serious business approach.  Show me.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;612530I ran a three-year-long Exalted campaign using the game's 1st Edition, and ended it just after 2nd Edition arrived.  It's a good thing that I did because the mechanics were already starting to strain, as was the setting premises, and that was with just one Perfect Brotherhood of Dragon-Blooded Dynasts (and a Sidereal PC who tried very, very hard to stay under cover; he provided much comic relief).  Had things gone on, as I intended, the follow-up would have broken both elements within a year.

Second Edition did little to allay my concerns, so I sat out this edition, and now I am cautious about this new Third Edition.  I really want to see folks that know statistics, probability, etc. hammering away at the forge of mechanical design while economists, geographers, geologists, religious scholars, occultists, martial artists, philosophers and so on all contribute their expertise.  (Graduate students and top-tier undergraduates are cheap and good enough in terms of expertise.)

I want a business manager planning the releases NOW.  I want that man to be able to clearly, concisely answer questions like "What is the expected buy-in?", "What is your new user acquisition strategy?" and "What is your user retention strategy?" with things like "Players spend $30 and buy one boxed set.", "A marketing campaign aimed at college-aged young adults who fit both the Classics-familiar and the Anime/Wuxia-familiar demographics, w/ a gameplay experience that replicates the key features of both sources." and "We've signed a contract with the RPGA to launch a Living Creation Campaign, where participating players will influence future product releases by their gameplay results at major conventions over the fiscal year."

In other words, I want a fucking serious business approach.  Show me.

Flat out: You will be disappointed and should not buy third edition.  

That is simply such an incomprehensible goal for a company the size of Onyx Path right now that you are doomed to disappointment.  I also think "(Graduate students and top-tier undergraduates are cheap and good enough in terms of expertise.)" shows a deep, abiding ignorance of the economic realities of 99% of game companies out there.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;612530I want a business manager planning the releases NOW.  I want that man to be able to clearly, concisely answer questions like "What is the expected buy-in?", "What is your new user acquisition strategy?" and "What is your user retention strategy?" with things like "Players spend $30 and buy one boxed set.", "A marketing campaign aimed at college-aged young adults who fit both the Classics-familiar and the Anime/Wuxia-familiar demographics, w/ a gameplay experience that replicates the key features of both sources." and "We've signed a contract with the RPGA to launch a Living Creation Campaign, where participating players will influence future product releases by their gameplay results at major conventions over the fiscal year."

In other words, I want a fucking serious business approach.  Show me.

Side question:
Given that, presumably, you can still run any game you want with your group and run it however y'all decide, why do you care about all this business-end and target-demographic stuff?

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;612530I want a business manager planning the releases NOW.  I want that man to be able to clearly, concisely answer questions like "What is the expected buy-in?", "What is your new user acquisition strategy?" and "What is your user retention strategy?" with things like "Players spend $30 and buy one boxed set.", "A marketing campaign aimed at college-aged young adults who fit both the Classics-familiar and the Anime/Wuxia-familiar demographics, w/ a gameplay experience that replicates the key features of both sources." and "We've signed a contract with the RPGA to launch a Living Creation Campaign, where participating players will influence future product releases by their gameplay results at major conventions over the fiscal year."

In other words, I want a fucking serious business approach.  Show me.

Do you expect this from any other publishers?

Quote from: Future Villain Band;612534Flat out: You will be disappointed and should not buy third edition.

Likely so.

QuoteThat is simply such an incomprehensible goal for a company the size of Onyx Path right now that you are doomed to disappointment.  I also think "(Graduate students and top-tier undergraduates are cheap and good enough in terms of expertise.)" shows a deep, abiding ignorance of the economic realities of 99% of game companies out there.

I'm tired of hearing this whine.  If you're good enough to figure out how to work around the collapse of traditional publishing, then you're good enough to figure out how to work around the other economic issues out there.  (If not, then get the fuck out and go back to your day job.)

You can get this work done for free.  Contact a public university.  You'll find that a lot of them now offer Independent Studies.  That's the alternative to the traditional Internship, and this is how you get that shit done.  The deal is much like an internship in that you're trading work experience that matters in return for the student's availability and expertise.  The catch is that you've got to get the school to sign off on it, and you've got to revise expectations to fit the student's schedule--it's part-time at best, only during the term (semester, etc.) and the student is not treated like an employee; he's doing consulting work, not flunky work--but as more public institutions are opening to Independent Study (especially in graduate work) this sort of thing will be more commonplace (likely in addition to an internship over the summer).

Seriously, this is not hard to do anymore.  For fuck's sake, a goodly amount of useful and relevant information can be had even cheaper and easier just by making proper fucking use of Wikipedia and hitting up the local university libraries now and again.  If you're going to do like Barker--and Exalted does, to a significant degree--then its on the designer and publisher to do that heavy lifting well before it goes to press.  I don't give a fuck that it takes time or effort; this ain't pre-transmedia time anymore- either you have a full fucking plan, and you make use of all this expertise lying about going unused, or you go fucking home.

Christ.  Only in TRPGs is anything like this looked at askance.  Cloning D&D is something doable on the cheap like that.  This?  Fuck no.  There is no longer any successful not-D&D TRPG (much less a fantasy game) that doesn't require a metric fuckload of useful research and development.  I don't give a fuck what their size is, or their finances, or whatever the bitchfest is this week: this is what is required now, so either put up or shut up- success is for closers.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;612543I'm tired of hearing this whine.  If you're good enough to figure out how to work around the collapse of traditional publishing, then you're good enough to figure out how to work around the other economic issues out there.  (If not, then get the fuck out and go back to your day job.)

You can get this work done for free.  Contact a public university.  You'll find that a lot of them now offer Independent Studies.  That's the alternative to the traditional Internship, and this is how you get that shit done.  The deal is much like an internship in that you're trading work experience that matters in return for the student's availability and expertise.  The catch is that you've got to get the school to sign off on it, and you've got to revise expectations to fit the student's schedule--it's part-time at best, only during the term (semester, etc.) and the student is not treated like an employee; he's doing consulting work, not flunky work--but as more public institutions are opening to Independent Study (especially in graduate work) this sort of thing will be more commonplace (likely in addition to an internship over the summer).

Seriously, this is not hard to do anymore.  For fuck's sake, a goodly amount of useful and relevant information can be had even cheaper and easier just by making proper fucking use of Wikipedia and hitting up the local university libraries now and again.  If you're going to do like Barker--and Exalted does, to a significant degree--then its on the designer and publisher to do that heavy lifting well before it goes to press.  I don't give a fuck that it takes time or effort; this ain't pre-transmedia time anymore- either you have a full fucking plan, and you make use of all this expertise lying about going unused, or you go fucking home.

Christ.  Only in TRPGs is anything like this looked at askance.  Cloning D&D is something doable on the cheap like that.  This?  Fuck no.  There is no longer any successful not-D&D TRPG (much less a fantasy game) that doesn't require a metric fuckload of useful research and development.  I don't give a fuck what their size is, or their finances, or whatever the bitchfest is this week: this is what is required now, so either put up or shut up- success is for closers.

Dude, if it's this simple, then you do it.  The reason why you won't, and can't, is because it's not this simple.  Expertise is not free, and if it is free, it's because the people involved absolutely love the subject-matter and are doing it as a hobby, which comes with its own pitfalls, such as people taking their own sweet-ass time doing things.

I mean, you go off like this and sound very authoritative, but people with real expertise charge for that expertise.  All that undergraduate and post-graduate manpower just laying around wants to be paid, and if they can't be paid, they're busy working at Starbucks and are too tired to work their ass off for you for free.

I mean, seriously, that's ludicrous.  What the hell is the RPG field going to offer, internships?  Hey, you too can make less than you'd make schlepping tables at Applebees.  Let me just push past the throng waiting outside my door to start the interviews.  Independent study?  For one guy who claims he's a game designer but works out of his kitchen when he's not doing his dayjob?

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;612543Likely so.

I'm tired of hearing this whine.  If you're good enough to figure out how to work around the collapse of traditional publishing, then you're good enough to figure out how to work around the other economic issues out there.  (If not, then get the fuck out and go back to your day job.)

You can get this work done for free.  Contact a public university.  You'll find that a lot of them now offer Independent Studies.  That's the alternative to the traditional Internship, and this is how you get that shit done.  The deal is much like an internship in that you're trading work experience that matters in return for the student's availability and expertise.  The catch is that you've got to get the school to sign off on it, and you've got to revise expectations to fit the student's schedule--it's part-time at best, only during the term (semester, etc.) and the student is not treated like an employee; he's doing consulting work, not flunky work--but as more public institutions are opening to Independent Study (especially in graduate work) this sort of thing will be more commonplace (likely in addition to an internship over the summer).

Seriously, this is not hard to do anymore.  For fuck's sake, a goodly amount of useful and relevant information can be had even cheaper and easier just by making proper fucking use of Wikipedia and hitting up the local university libraries now and again.  If you're going to do like Barker--and Exalted does, to a significant degree--then its on the designer and publisher to do that heavy lifting well before it goes to press.  I don't give a fuck that it takes time or effort; this ain't pre-transmedia time anymore- either you have a full fucking plan, and you make use of all this expertise lying about going unused, or you go fucking home.

Christ.  Only in TRPGs is anything like this looked at askance.  Cloning D&D is something doable on the cheap like that.  This?  Fuck no.  There is no longer any successful not-D&D TRPG (much less a fantasy game) that doesn't require a metric fuckload of useful research and development.  I don't give a fuck what their size is, or their finances, or whatever the bitchfest is this week: this is what is required now, so either put up or shut up- success is for closers.

Are you in some business related manner, a confidant of either staff with CCP/White or with Onyx Path? Do you have any sort of regular contact with the writers and developers involved with 3e and can share non NDA material not yet disclosed about the development of Exalted 3rd edition?

Quote from: One Horse Town;612416It's what i like to call 'smoke & mirrors' writing. Labyrinthine, arcane, gibberish, but with just enough knowing pretension to it to make some stupid people think it's meaningful.

For awhile (maybe its still in use) there was a term "Borgstromancy" for those with the "gift" to decipher her writing...

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;612454That's the GNS to a "T". "Smoke & Mirrors" pisses me off whenever I read it. I'm even more pissed off when people insist that obscurity = wisdom or insight. Here's the rule:

Just because it's hard to understand, doesn't mean it's insightful.

Applies to movies, music, and all other forms of communication. "Smoke & Mirrors" can be found everywhere.

This is what I try to tell people about Immanuel Kant.

JG

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;612543I don't give a fuck what their size is, or their finances, or whatever the bitchfest is this week: this is what is required now, so either put up or shut up- success is for closers.

To the best of my knowledge, there's only one person on DrivethruRPG who has their name on more platinum-selling titles than I do. I think that makes me a rather odd person to quote Glengarry Glen Ross to.

Quote from: Holden;612779To the best of my knowledge, there's only one person on DrivethruRPG who has their name on more platinum-selling titles than I do. I think that makes me a rather odd person to quote Glengarry Glen Ross to.

(http://rantlister.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_housesnap.gif)

Just curious, who's number one?

Not commenting on the feasibility of cheaply affordable quality research, just want to point out that what Bradford is talking about isn't research for free, it's research for credits.  I've never known a grad student who wasn't trying finagle the last few credits needed from somewhere.

Quote from: CRKrueger;612781(http://rantlister.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_housesnap.gif)

Just curious, who's number one?

I believe at the moment, Michael Goodwin has one more title than I do.

That's not counting art director credits, of course, or Brian Glass would smoke everyone else by a country mile.

Quote from: Ladybird;612141Not just "anime", originally, but also ancient greek, indian, etc. mythological heroes.

That's what I'd heard when I decided to check it out. I read maybe a half-dozen sentences of the introduction, my eyes glazed over, and I put it back on the shelf and never looked at it again.

Quote from: Ladybird;612141Not just "anime", originally, but also ancient greek, indian, etc. mythological heroes. Then it got all Dragonball Z later on. But also apparently has rules for handling lowest-of-the-low mortals?

Anyway, it seems like less a fight, more a gradual disappointment.

This is a lie told by Exalted fanboys to sell books to non-weeaboos.
Exalted is anime as fuck.

Quote from: J Arcane;612789This is a lie told by Exalted fanboys to sell books to non-weeaboos.
Exalted is anime as fuck.

 I've never heard anyone say to the otherwise. I suppose that anime(which you know, has it's own foundations in it's origins and what inspired it) and ancient world epics, wuxai,etc are all mutually exclusive as inspirations for a game world.

Don't see also Tanith Lee Flat Earth series, The Black Company, Journey to the West, Gods of Pegana, and Traveler in Black among other pieces. Which are also things "Exalted fanboys." lie* about to others to tell books to non-weeaboos.











*by lie I mean have the capacity to read and find out what inspired Grabowski and others in the creation of the game setting.

I never felt the system did much to support the idea of PCs as mythological heroes other than "can do super-powerful stuff".  

It just felt too systematized and gamey.  PCs are members of a superior caste of people who all draw their power from the sun, didn't really capture the uniqueness of mythological heroes.  Nor did the system really do anything much to encourage the mythological element in play.  (I don't remember the 'Limit Break' ever seeing play).  Pendragon does a much better job of facilitating the kind of play I'd want for these characters with it's passions system.

I did really like a lot of the early setting books however.

P.S.  What on earth is "weeaboo"?

Quote from: soviet;612461Based on your posts, this should be your sig.

Really, yeah? You're just going to trail that butthurt across the entire internet threadcrapping as you go? Actually keep doing this, it just gets funnier.

Quote from: Crabbyapples;612527Mechanical, I don't think Exalted does one thing right.

To be fair the battle wheel works very well.

Quote from: Dog QuixoteP.S. What on earth is "weeaboo"?

Its the heir to the throne of "wapanese", a non Japanese person that seeks to emulate certain specific elements of Japanese culture, cf most of the TBZ fan club. The entertaining Xiaorishu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GL5BNyW-LgI) explains it better.

Quote from: Dog Quixote;612802P.S.  What on earth is "weeaboo"?

Westerners obsessed with Japanese culture.

Quote from: J Arcane;612789

Quote from: Ladybird;612141Not just "anime", originally, but also ancient greek, indian, etc. mythological heroes. Then it got all Dragonball Z later on. But also apparently has rules for handling lowest-of-the-low mortals?

Anyway, it seems like less a fight, more a gradual disappointment.

This is a lie told by Exalted fanboys to sell books to non-weeaboos.
Exalted is anime as fuck.

White Wolf's marketing talk was this:

"I don't want to say too much about Exalted's setting, except that it is
inspired far more by Homer than it is by Tolkien, looks more like
Katsuhiro Otomo than it does John William Waterhouse and feels more like
Final Fantasy than it does Dungeons & Dragons."

Tim Avers (White Wolf) in an issue of InQuest

Quote from: Black Vulmea;612788That's what I'd heard when I decided to check it out. I read maybe a half-dozen sentences of the introduction, my eyes glazed over, and I put it back on the shelf and never looked at it again.

For me, it was the mechanics. I don't really like dice pools at the best of times, and Exalted - with it's large dice pools - magnifies the problem. They're slower to resolve than comparing against static difficulty numbers, by their very nature. But admittedly, that's a very personal niggle - I find arithmetic far faster than success-counting.

I also don't like the charop-intensive CCG nature of the charm system, or the simplistic WW morality mechanics.

So, no. It's not for me, either.

Quote from: Ladybird;612832For me, it was the mechanics. I don't really like dice pools at the best of times, and Exalted - with it's large dice pools - magnifies the problem. They're slower to resolve than comparing against static difficulty numbers, by their very nature. But admittedly, that's a very personal niggle - I find arithmetic far faster than success-counting.

I also don't like the charop-intensive CCG nature of the charm system, or the simplistic WW morality mechanics.

So, no. It's not for me, either.

That's fine, but erm... Exalted doesn't have morality mechanics.

Quote from: Holden;612849That's fine, but erm... Exalted doesn't have morality mechanics.

I'm curious as to why you don't think the Virtue system can be construed as "morality mechanics".  It defines the ethics of the setting insofar as it has them, and it can compel PCs to take or not take certain actions.  Of course the player has some agency in whether or not to adhere to their Virtues, but it comes at a mechanical cost.  It seems to me like an in-system way of imposing a certain model of "heroic morality".  Or are you referring to 3rd edition, which of course I wouldn't be privy to?

Quote from: Mathias;612852I'm curious as to why you don't think the Virtue system can be construed as "morality mechanics".  It defines the ethics of the setting insofar as it has them, and it can compel PCs to take or not take certain actions.  Of course the player has some agency in whether or not to adhere to their Virtues, but it comes at a mechanical cost.  It seems to me like an in-system way of imposing a certain model of "heroic morality".  Or are you referring to 3rd edition, which of course I wouldn't be privy to?

Because the Virtues have no ethical assertions. They're personality mechanics, and amoral in nature; they can push you toward acting like a saint or a giant a-hole with equal ease, depending on the circumstances. Sometimes both at once.

Mostly, they're there to enforce behavior that lines up with the kind of things you see in Grecian and Chinese epics-- the sort of behavior players are generally inclined to look at and go "my character wouldn't do that," when according to genre, yes, he probably should, and you're saying he shouldn't because it would seriously fuck up your plans if he did.

Quote from: MrMephistopheles;612799Don't see also Tanith Lee Flat Earth series, The Black Company, Journey to the West, Gods of Pegana, and Traveler in Black among other pieces. Which are also things "Exalted fanboys." lie* about to others to tell books to non-weeaboos.

I can't vouch for the others, but despite what Grabowski was or claimed to have been inspired by, Exalted does a rather shit job at emulating anything from Black Company.

Quote from: Holden;612874Because the Virtues have no ethical assertions. They're personality mechanics, and amoral in nature; they can push you toward acting like a saint or a giant a-hole with equal ease, depending on the circumstances. Sometimes both at once.

Mostly, they're there to enforce behavior that lines up with the kind of things you see in Grecian and Chinese epics-- the sort of behavior players are generally inclined to look at and go "my character wouldn't do that," when according to genre, yes, he probably should, and you're saying he shouldn't because it would seriously fuck up your plans if he did.

That's a fair interpretation.  I just think that mechanics which dictate how your character ought to act, whether that's because of an objective standard of right and wrong (which Exalted doesn't have*) or because of genre expectations (which Exalted does have, as you point out above), can be fairly characterized as "morality mechanics" because they dictate what your character should do in any given situation.  Plenty of people in the real world act like what you call "giant a-holes" because they are acting in alignment with what they call morality.

*Other than, I suppose, the idea that the Solars as lawgivers have or had Divine backing on their actions, and the presence of things like Holy charms, but I'm not really interested in arguing that those are "morality mechanics" and I'm fairly certain they're not what Ladybird was referring to.

Quote from: Mathias;612901That's a fair interpretation.  I just think that mechanics which dictate how your character ought to act, whether that's because of an objective standard of right and wrong (which Exalted doesn't have*) or because of genre expectations (which Exalted does have, as you point out above), can be fairly characterized as "morality mechanics" because they dictate what your character should do in any given situation.  Plenty of people in the real world act like what you call "giant a-holes" because they are acting in alignment with what they call morality.

*Other than, I suppose, the idea that the Solars as lawgivers have or had Divine backing on their actions, and the presence of things like Holy charms, but I'm not really interested in arguing that those are "morality mechanics" and I'm fairly certain they're not what Ladybird was referring to.

Regardless, I think you can agree that it's not equivalent to something like vampire's Humanity track, or nMage's Wisdom, which are what people generally mean when they talk about "white wolf morality mechanics." That is the equivalency I responded to.

Quote from: Mathias;612901That's a fair interpretation.  I just think that mechanics which dictate how your character ought to act, whether that's because of an objective standard of right and wrong (which Exalted doesn't have*) or because of genre expectations (which Exalted does have, as you point out above), can be fairly characterized as "morality mechanics" because they dictate what your character should do in any given situation.  Plenty of people in the real world act like what you call "giant a-holes" because they are acting in alignment with what they call morality.

*Other than, I suppose, the idea that the Solars as lawgivers have or had Divine backing on their actions, and the presence of things like Holy charms, but I'm not really interested in arguing that those are "morality mechanics" and I'm fairly certain they're not what Ladybird was referring to.

I wasn't, and you've pretty much nailed it here. "Morality mechanics" is a handy shorthand for it.

As far as I'm concerned, Pendragon has the best morality mechanics. Pendragon characters can talk back to the player and tell them "no, I'm going to do this instead, actually".

Quote from: Ladybird;612915Pendragon characters can talk back to the player and tell them "no, I'm going to do this instead, actually".

How does that work, exactly?

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;612917How does that work, exactly?

Quote from: wikipediaPersonal Traits

These are thirteen opposing values that represent a character's personality. The Traits are: Chaste / Lustful, Energetic / Lazy, Forgiving / Vengeful, Generous / Selfish, Honest / Deceitful, Just / Arbitrary, Merciful / Cruel, Modest / Proud, Pious / Worldly, Prudent / Reckless, Temperate / Indulgent, Trusting / Suspicious, and Valorous / Cowardly. The values on the left side are Virtues and the values on the right are Vices. The Traits are 1-20 points split between the opposing values (e.g., 10/10, 14/6, 5/15). For every point above 10 on a Virtue, a point must be placed below 10 on another Virtue.
 A d20 roll is made to use a Virtue (Merciful to show mercy towards a captive mortal enemy) or resist a Vice (Deceive a friend). If the roll is at or below the value, it Succeeds and the desired result occurs. If the roll exceeds the value, it is a Failure and the opposite result occurs. If a Virtue or Vice is rated at 20, the opposite is rated at 0; any roll on this trait is automatically successful (e.g., an Energetic character's attempt to persist in a difficult or arduous task) or automatically unsuccessful (e.g., an Indulgent character who must use Temperate to resist gluttony or intoxication). This is congruent with Arthurian legend, in which a hero's weaknesses are his downfall (like Lancelot's lust for Guenevere) or a villain has a moment of nobility (like King Uriens of Gore showing mercy to Prince Arthur rather than striking him down).
 The Chivalric Virtues are: Energetic, Forgiving, Generous, Just, Modest, and Valorous. Characters possessing point values in these six Virtues totaling above 80 are granted a bonus to Chivalry rolls. Christian Characters possessing one or more of these traits at a value of 16+ gain a Religious bonus.
 The Vices are: Vengeful, Selfish, Deceitful, Cruel, and Suspicious. Characters possessing point values in these five Vices totaling above 80 are granted a penalty to Chivalry rolls.
 The Romantic Virtues are: Forgiving, Generous, Sincere, Just, Merciful, and Trusting. Characters possessing point values in these six Virtues totaling above 65 are granted a bonus to Romance rolls.

Because characters are rewarded mechanically for having high values in appropriate traits, it influences their behaviour; so a knight with high ratings in the chivalric virtues will follow them, because they'll be more likely to make any relevant virtue checks (Or fail any relevant vice checks). If you try to act against what the character believes in, you'll be less likely to succeed, because of this character push-back.

Obviously, as a player, you could just do whatever you want anyway. But where's the fun in that?

You can also ask your character questions, and if you can phrase them in the form of a virtue / vice pair, your character can tell you what they want to do in any given situation.

Great system, great mechanic.

Quote from: Holden;612908Regardless, I think you can agree that it's not equivalent to something like vampire's Humanity track, or nMage's Wisdom, which are what people generally mean when they talk about "white wolf morality mechanics." That is the equivalency I responded to.

Ah, ok.  Yeah I can agree with that.

Quote from: Ladybird;612920Great system, great mechanic.

Thanks. That's definitely a unique mechanic.

Quote from: vytzka;612880I can't vouch for the others, but despite what Grabowski was or claimed to have been inspired by, Exalted does a rather shit job at emulating anything from Black Company.

I doubt it's actually trying to emulate it. Inspiration is not always so direct. As for what parts of that inspired some aspects of Exalted. You could always I suppose ask him. Also not my point. I was replying to a post that was skirting along the lines of, if not crossing it, into lying.

Quote from: Benoist;612136Not indy forgey enough, probably. 'Needs moar metagame edgy mechanics, dude.'

More the opposite: there were too many pointless and edgy mechanics.  It can turn into a giant diceroll fest, and none of the dice matter.  Or it you'd end up with ruleslawyery quibbling over what constitutes an Attack or Improvised Weapon, because this leads to things like knowing someone a hundred miles away said something mean about you and bitchslapping his argument with a breadroll.  And the splatbooks tended to aggravate the problem, especially since many of them were incompletely written (the Fae book repeatedly references rules that were dropped somewhere before printing) or had keyword problems requiring a mass of houseruling and/or errata.  Fan-made Battle Wheels are the only reasonable way to keep the game's time-consuming and confusing combat sequences in line, character sheets get ugly really fast, and there's always (too much) opportunity for a time-consuming character build to get ashed.

And a lot of the fandom tries to get people to play Dragonball Z or Tennen Toppen Gurren Lagann, despite that really not being a good place to start with the system.

Quote from: Ladybird;612141Not just "anime", originally, but also ancient greek, indian, etc. mythological heroes. Then it got all Dragonball Z later on. But also apparently has rules for handling lowest-of-the-low mortals?

Oddly enough, the mechanics work best on levels that involve only Heroic Mortals or God-blooded, despite or because of the authors doing such a terrible, terrible job on the 2E Heroic Mortal splatbook.  

Of course, you have to go into the game assuming your character will lose a limb and die of gangrene.

Quote from: Ladybird;612920Because characters are rewarded mechanically for having high values in appropriate traits, it influences their behaviour; so a knight with high ratings in the chivalric virtues will follow them, because they'll be more likely to make any relevant virtue checks (Or fail any relevant vice checks). If you try to act against what the character believes in, you'll be less likely to succeed, because of this character push-back.

Obviously, as a player, you could just do whatever you want anyway. But where's the fun in that?

You can also ask your character questions, and if you can phrase them in the form of a virtue / vice pair, your character can tell you what they want to do in any given situation.

Great system, great mechanic.

In 5e of Pendragon, if a character had an 18 in a Trait, he could not usually go against the pull of personality. Was this different in earlier editions?

Quote from: Crabbyapples;612961In 5e of Pendragon, if a character had an 18 in a Trait, he could not usually go against the pull of personality. Was this different in earlier editions?

I've only played 4 and 5, but it works in basically the same way in 4. High ratings really mean something.

(Some players don't like losing control of their character, and that's fine I guess, but... these characters have obviously been alive, in the game world, for however long before the players showed up. They don't need the players to move them around. And just because you know your character is, say, being honest, doesn't mean that you can't elaborate on that fact yourself, on how they are being honest; you're still able to play the character. It provides great roleplaying challenges, however you use the system.)

Quote from: Ladybird;612970I've only played 4 and 5, but it works in basically the same way in 4. High ratings really mean something.

(Some players don't like losing control of their character, and that's fine I guess, but... these characters have obviously been alive, in the game world, for however long before the players showed up. They don't need the players to move them around. And just because you know your character is, say, being honest, doesn't mean that you can't elaborate on that fact yourself, on how they are being honest; you're still able to play the character. It provides great roleplaying challenges, however you use the system.)

And you've got to work pretty damn hard to get an 18 in Trait post-character creation. Players don't have to take an 18 in a Trait, but it does help with Glory. And if they feel like it's taking away control, he can spend his Winter Phase action to raise the opposing trait by 1 point. A waste, yes, but at least the character keeps some behaviour agency.

Plus, I find forcing behaviour keeps high passions (20+) fair. You are forced to go along with your passion, no matter how much you would like to go against it.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;612827White Wolf's marketing talk was this:

"I don't want to say too much about Exalted's setting, except that it is
inspired far more by Homer than it is by Tolkien, looks more like
Katsuhiro Otomo than it does John William Waterhouse and feels more like
Final Fantasy than it does Dungeons & Dragons."

Tim Avers (White Wolf) in an issue of InQuest

Odysseus didnt have a Limit Break and Jason was an Argonaut, not an Invincible Sword Princess.

The game is layered thick with Orientalist pastiche, and has absolutely fuck all to do with anything that actually happens in the Greek epics, where the heroes were most often shit scared and getting eaten by the handful by creatures far older and more poweeful than themselves.

If WW thinks Exalted looks like Homer, I'd like to see what the hell translation theyve been reading.

It's never been anything but marketing bullshit. Exalted is anime and wuxia and fighting games and JRPGs, and trying to sell it to people on the basis of comparing it to other shit it is grossly unsuited for is dishonest at best, and potentially outright fraudulent.

Quote from: J Arcane;613045Odysseus didnt have a Limit Break and Jason was an Argonaut, not an Invincible Sword Princess.

The game is layered thick with Orientalist pastiche, and has absolutely fuck all to do with anything that actually happens in the Greek epics, where the heroes were most often shit scared and getting eaten by the handful by creatures far older and more poweeful than themselves.

If WW thinks Exalted looks like Homer, I'd like to see what the hell translation theyve been reading.

It's never been anything but marketing bullshit. Exalted is anime and wuxia and fighting games and JRPGs, and trying to sell it to people on the basis of comparing it to other shit it is grossly unsuited for is dishonest at best, and potentially outright fraudulent.

Homer no.  But if you squint real hard you can kind of make an argument for emulation of the Mahabharata.  It's not that far off that you couldn't actually make it work, if all the players and the GM were on the same page and had some familiarity with the source material.

Quote from: vytzka;612880I can't vouch for the others, but despite what Grabowski was or claimed to have been inspired by, Exalted does a rather shit job at emulating anything from Black Company.

Maybe if you ignore the Dominator, The Lady, Limper, Soulcatcher, etc. Exalted emulate them quite well.

Quote from: J Arcane;613045Odysseus didnt have a Limit Break and Jason was an Argonaut, not an Invincible Sword Princess.

Achilles is more the Invincible Sword Princess, both in terms of combat monstrosity and in terms of breaking into rage attack and depressed sob modes.   Odysseus and Jason are present in other capabilities.  Odysseus with his bowmanship and subterfuge, Jason with social-fu from hell.

Of course, the non-sword-fu skills don't get the sort of attention that combat does, since they're even less fun than the already messy normal combat mechanics.

I'd argue Odysseus did limit break: slaughtering people for having the audacity to court your wife when you've been thought dead for a decade isn't supposed to be a healthy reaction even by Roman or Greek standards, hence why Aphrodite needs to intervene to prevent Odysseus' wife's suitor's fathers from warring.  Some of the villains do limit break, too, such as Ajax's cow-murder spree and suicide, for example.

Would I be correct in assuming this "Exalted has to be about anime! No it doesn't!" line of argument came up a lot back in the day?

Quote from: Zak S;613085Would I be correct in assuming this "Exalted has to be about anime! No it doesn't!" line of argument came up a lot back in the day?

Yes. Also the obligatory "Anime isn't a genre it's a medium, so stop criticizing it!" dodge.

Quote from: Zak S;613085Would I be correct in assuming this "Exalted has to be about anime! No it doesn't!" line of argument came up a lot back in the day?

It happened, yes.  The important thing to take away is that there were hundreds of little issues like that one which cropped up over and over again and created factions and counter-factions, and their ideological struggles pervaded every Exalted thread.  These heated discussions encompassed both lore and mechanics and the interaction between the two. It the game's heyday, over 50% of the threads on the main rpg.net forum were about Exalted at any given time.  I don't think there was "some giant hubbub" about Exalted so much as the game was so popular at one time that discussion of it has left an indelible mark on the forum's culture.

Quote from: Piestrio;613086Yes. Also the obligatory "Anime isn't a genre it's a medium, so stop criticizing it!" dodge.

It is a dodge. What people mean when they say Exalted is like anime is that it is like shonen anime.  People know what the nay-sayers mean, they just don't want to admit it.

Exalted actually feeling like Shonen anime on the other hand is a completely different subject.

Quote from: Mathias;613091It the game's heyday, over 50% of the threads on the main rpg.net forum were about Exalted at any given time.  I don't think there was "some giant hubbub" about Exalted so much as the game was so popular at one time that discussion of it has left an indelible mark on the forum's culture.

I see.

I suppose this is because D&D had its own forum (enworld), Palladium was off the table, Vampire (et al) and Cthulhu have always either played nicely or played separately, 40k was still technically all miniatures rules and the arty games had their own forums?

Izzat about right?

Quote from: Zak S;613098I see.

I suppose this is because D&D had its own forum (enworld), Palladium was off the table, Vampire (et al) and Cthulhu have always either played nicely or played separately, 40k was still technically all miniatures rules and the arty games had their own forums?

Izzat about right?

Certainly some of the other games had their own thriving forums, but it was just the RPGnet Darling of the day. I remember logging in on Big Purple one day back in '06 or so, and there were seriously all of two threads on the main page not referencing Exalted in some manner. Now, it wasn't always that severe, but they did have a majority or near-majority of threads over there for a good while. Exalted Mania knew no bounds. :)

Quote from: Dog Quixote;613067Homer no.  But if you squint real hard you can kind of make an argument for emulation of the Mahabharata.  It's not that far off that you couldn't actually make it work, if all the players and the GM were on the same page and had some familiarity with the source material.

Mahabharata works because of the Orientalist pastiche. ;-)

Unfortunately, it's also not the one that always gets brought up.

If they compared it to that more, or better style the Chinese mythic history it constantly apes, I think there wouldn't even be an argument.

Quote from: J Arcane;613045Odysseus didnt have a Limit Break and Jason was an Argonaut, not an Invincible Sword Princess.

The game is layered thick with Orientalist pastiche, and has absolutely fuck all to do with anything that actually happens in the Greek epics, where the heroes were most often shit scared and getting eaten by the handful by creatures far older and more poweeful than themselves.

If WW thinks Exalted looks like Homer, I'd like to see what the hell translation theyve been reading.

It's never been anything but marketing bullshit. Exalted is anime and wuxia and fighting games and JRPGs, and trying to sell it to people on the basis of comparing it to other shit it is grossly unsuited for is dishonest at best, and potentially outright fraudulent.

The Greeks weren't the only ones writing epics, man. There's a hell of a lot of Romance of the Three Kingdoms in there, especially as you cast an eye toward the Realm.

Quote from: Holden;613119The Greeks weren't the only ones writing epics, man. There's a hell of a lot of Romance of the Three Kingdoms in there, especially as you cast an eye toward the Realm.

*points to previous post* ;)

Quote from: danbuter;613072Maybe if you ignore the Dominator, The Lady, Limper, Soulcatcher, etc. Exalted emulate them quite well.

Except that all of them could be punked by mortals and that happened on a semi-regular basis. Mortals can do jack shit to Solaroids, and that tendency has been increasing for most of the lifetime of the line.

Hell, do I have to dig out Neph's "mortals never win" quote?

Quote from: Holden;613119The Greeks weren't the only ones writing epics, man. There's a hell of a lot of Romance of the Three Kingdoms in there, especially as you cast an eye toward the Realm.

So, you admit Exalted doesn't actually do a good job at portraying Greek epics, despite the advertising?

Quote from: Zak S;613085Would I be correct in assuming this "Exalted has to be about anime! No it doesn't!" line of argument came up a lot back in the day?

It really didn't come up. More often if there were any more arguments along that lines it was more of what influence was the dominant one.

Quote from: Zak S;613098I see.

I suppose this is because D&D had its own forum (enworld), Palladium was off the table, Vampire (et al) and Cthulhu have always either played nicely or played separately, 40k was still technically all miniatures rules and the arty games had their own forums?

Izzat about right?

Good question.  I honestly have no idea exactly why Exalted was as popular as it was on that forum.  I don't think anyone could point to one particular reason.  I suppose it was just the right game at the right time for the right audience, in an extremely localized fashion.  I don't think the game's popularity in the non-internet world is reflected by it's rpg.net fame.

I first discovered rpg.net during the period when Exalted was king.

I quickly got tired of the phrase "It's all about looking cool."

Quote from: Mathias;613185Good question.  I honestly have no idea exactly why Exalted was as popular as it was on that forum.  I don't think anyone could point to one particular reason.  I suppose it was just the right game at the right time for the right audience, in an extremely localized fashion.  I don't think the game's popularity in the non-internet world is reflected by it's rpg.net fame.

It was the second most popular game WW had, after Vampire, which was during that period arguably the second most popular game in the hobby.  I know that its releases regularly chart on Drivethru and stay there -- Shards has been in the top 10 major company releases since it came out, and Shards is late-era, came along at the nadir of popularity Exalted.  And other forums which specialized in Exalted, like EC, had very high traffic during the 1e-2e period.  (At a guess, during the 1e period EC had higher traffic than therpgsite does now, if that's an illustration of anything.)

Plus, even when I was in Miami, which had no gaming scene whatsoever, I could buy Exalted books at Borders or the one game shop in the area.  So clearly, it was wider than just the RPG.net audience, unless RPG.net is much larger than I ever gave it credit for.

Quote from: Dimitrios;613188I first discovered rpg.net during the period when Exalted was king.

I quickly got tired of the phrase "It's all about looking cool."

It was popular enough that people wanted their own separate forum for it.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;613197It was popular enough that people wanted their own separate forum for it.

I think the people who said that (and I was probably one of them) did so because they didn't like Exalted (or just plain weren't interested in it) and were sick of it dominating the board.

Quote from: soviet;613201I think the people who said that (and I was probably one of them) did so because they didn't like Exalted (or just plain weren't interested in it) and were sick of it dominating the board.

Fair enough.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;613203Fair enough.

And given the amount of mods and favoured posters who have white wolf ties, it was no shock that the exalted ghetto didn't happen. But as none of the mods AFAIK have WotC ties, the D&D ghetto remains. Funny that.

Quote from: soviet;613216And given the amount of mods and favoured posters who have white wolf ties, it was no shock that the exalted ghetto didn't happen. But as none of the mods AFAIK have WotC ties, the D&D ghetto remains. Funny that.

There were also allegations at the time that WW was employing the same viral marketing group that CCP used (and this was before the merger), who would create sockpuppet accounts on gaming forums to drice up discussion of their games.

And of course, you had jackasses like Justin Achilli as semi-regular members, getting the usual preferred treatment also employed for Borgstrom and Edwards.

Quote from: J Arcane;613229There were also allegations at the time that WW was employing the same viral marketing group that CCP used (and this was before the merger), who would create sockpuppet accounts on gaming forums to drice up discussion of their games.

And of course, you had jackasses like Justin Achilli as semi-regular members, getting the usual preferred treatment also employed for Borgstrom and Edwards.

Some of the white wolf guys over there seem fine - Ethan Skemp in particular comes across well I find. But if you were to just look at the top 20 worst mods and posters, a surprising number of them are either white wolf developers or hardcore white wolf fans.

Quote from: soviet;613235Some of the white wolf guys over there seem fine - Ethan Skemp in particular comes across well I find. But if you were to just look at the top 20 worst mods and posters, a surprising number of them are either white wolf developers or hardcore white wolf fans.

Um... yes. I'm glad you shed light on this -- typical rpg.net moderator/favored poster hypocrisy. and I love how these people get away with so much bullshit because they're in that WW clique.

I have no faith Exalted 3rd will be a game I want to go back to. And I ran and played Exalted 1e for a long time. 2nd, which made the system more complicated, killed it for me.  I was tired of spending hours making battle-worthy NPCs and rolling upwards of hundreds of D10s per round as a player was fucking stupid.  It's at terrible system that hardly did anything what the setting said you could do.

Everyone involved in 3rd is still preoccupied with math-balancing charm sets and the system as a whole which is a fine goal but one I couldn't give a damn about.  I know that some people want that kind of math-heavy, complex ruleset but I don't.  I'd much rather use M&M 3e or something far more straightforward.

As for the popularity of Exalted on rpg.net vs. the TRPG hobby overall, it's clearly an anomaly.  If I'm aware of 20 rpg groups in my metropolitan area, 2 of them played Exalted back in the day. No one else did. Ever.  I've been going to multiple cons per year for 20 years throughout the country -- GenCon/Origins-aside (and even the most esoteric games get run at the big cons), I've seen about 3 exalted games run TOTAL. At my local game store, you can ask around and point to an Exalted book on the shelf and no one has played it.  Seriously.  I know this is just anecdotal bullshit and everyone's got a different story but I live in Los Angeles which has a sizeable anime/J-culture audience and Exalted is just a game that is barely known. No one plays it.

And quoting drivethrurpg/rpgnow stats is worthless.  The number acquired to achieve the best-seller list shifts all the time, 'metal' levels are proportionate, and frankly you could probably see something sell 10 copies in close succession and it would end up on that list.  The hobby is very small and pdf purchasers are a niche of that.  Sales rankings there are worthless.

Quote from: soviet;613216And given the amount of mods and favoured posters who have white wolf ties, it was no shock that the exalted ghetto didn't happen. But as none of the mods AFAIK have WotC ties, the D&D ghetto remains. Funny that.

That displays a lack of knowledge of how the d20 board split happened, the reasons for which IIRC were fairly public.  

The one thing I'm beginning to enjoy over here is the wild conspiracy theories  about this or that.  Your first mistake with any of these is assuming the moderators over there give a shit about this stuff to the degree you guys do.  

Speaking of crazy conspiracy theories:

Quote from: J Arcane;613229There were also allegations at the time that WW was employing the same viral marketing group that CCP used (and this was before the merger), who would create sockpuppet accounts on gaming forums to drice up discussion of their games.

And of course, you had jackasses like Justin Achilli as semi-regular members, getting the usual preferred treatment also employed for Borgstrom and Edwards.

I knew pretty much every Exalted poster during the peak days, and nobody was a WW-paid sock, nor did WW have any ties to CCP until well after Exalted reached its peak.  And believe me, I certainly would have accepted payola to fuck over the game of anyone's choice if they were throwing MMORPG money around.  I'd piss on my beloved copy of 2e Fading Suns for some cash, cocaine and a groupie.  Just like the bad DJ on that episode of WKRP where they exposed the cash-for-airplay scandal.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;613191It was the second most popular game WW had, after Vampire, which was during that period arguably the second most popular game in the hobby.  I know that its releases regularly chart on Drivethru and stay there -- Shards has been in the top 10 major company releases since it came out, and Shards is late-era, came along at the nadir of popularity Exalted.  And other forums which specialized in Exalted, like EC, had very high traffic during the 1e-2e period.  (At a guess, during the 1e period EC had higher traffic than therpgsite does now, if that's an illustration of anything.)

Plus, even when I was in Miami, which had no gaming scene whatsoever, I could buy Exalted books at Borders or the one game shop in the area.  So clearly, it was wider than just the RPG.net audience, unless RPG.net is much larger than I ever gave it credit for.

I have doubts about forum culture/traffic reflecting what actually goes on in gaming groups in the real world.  As for books being available readily at Borders at the time, that's neither surprising nor an indication of any particular level of popularity.  I could regularly find copies of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, Uresia Grave of Heaven, and the Serenity RPG in Borders four or so years ago.  I wouldn't argue that any of those were anywhere near as popular as say, D&D.

Quote from: Mathias;613253I have doubts about forum culture/traffic reflecting what actually goes on in gaming groups in the real world.  As for books being available readily at Borders at the time, that's neither surprising nor an indication of any particular level of popularity.  I could regularly find copies of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, Uresia Grave of Heaven, and the Serenity RPG in Borders four or so years ago.  I wouldn't argue that any of those were anywhere near as popular as say, D&D.

Nobody's arguing anything's as popular as D&D.  But Exalted was reliably a heavy seller during its heyday, and clearly the people at WW were happy enough to give it two steady editions and a heavy release schedule, even when they were releasing five book lines.

But seriously, this isn't one of those things where I feel the urge to particularly get into a lengthy argument.  I mean, the game did well, according to people I knew privy to sales figures.  A bunch of guys on the Internet saying, "Hey, it sucked, nobody played it..."  Well, okay, you win, nobody played it, it sucked.  You win the argument.  What shall we talk about next?

Quote from: Future Villain Band;613191It was the second most popular game WW had, after Vampire, which was during that period arguably the second most popular game in the hobby.  I know that its releases regularly chart on Drivethru and stay there -- Shards has been in the top 10 major company releases since it came out, and Shards is late-era, came along at the nadir of popularity Exalted.  And other forums which specialized in Exalted, like EC, had very high traffic during the 1e-2e period.  (At a guess, during the 1e period EC had higher traffic than therpgsite does now, if that's an illustration of anything.)

Plus, even when I was in Miami, which had no gaming scene whatsoever, I could buy Exalted books at Borders or the one game shop in the area.  So clearly, it was wider than just the RPG.net audience, unless RPG.net is much larger than I ever gave it credit for.

It's more. The White Wolf Exalted forum is close to if not bigger than every other game forum put together. Still got a huge fanbase waiting for 3e.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;613191Plus, even when I was in Miami, which had no gaming scene whatsoever, I could buy Exalted books at Borders or the one game shop in the area.  So clearly, it was wider than just the RPG.net audience, unless RPG.net is much larger than I ever gave it credit for.

That's less popularity, and more WW doing proper marketing.
Which happens so infrequently in the RPG market, it should be lauded.

Exalted was never my bag, but every time I went into a busy game store, there were just as many people looking at those books as D&D.

For whatever that's worth.

Quote from: Ian Noble;613247And quoting drivethrurpg/rpgnow stats is worthless.  The number acquired to achieve the best-seller list shifts all the time, 'metal' levels are proportionate, and frankly you could probably see something sell 10 copies in close succession and it would end up on that list.  The hobby is very small and pdf purchasers are a niche of that.  Sales rankings there are worthless.

Incorrect. Best-seller is proportional within a timeframe, but metal levels are non-proportional and track lifetime sales. Although if metal levels were proportional, that would be even more impressive, as it would make them harder to earn as the number of items on the site grew.

Quote from: Dimitrios;613188I first discovered rpg.net during the period when Exalted was king.

I quickly got tired of the phrase "It's all about looking cool."

It is better to look good than to feel good.
If you know what I mean.
And I think that you do.

JG

Quote from: Holden;613290Incorrect. Best-seller is proportional within a timeframe, but metal levels are non-proportional and track lifetime sales. Although if metal levels were proportional, that would be even more impressive, as it would make them harder to earn as the number of items on the site grew.

Sorry, furry, I don't want to take your platinum-crown away from you.

I don't think there's any big mystery why Exalted was so popular on RPG.net for a time:

1. It was not D&D.
2. It was done by White Wolf.

For quite a while, RPG.net was inundated with the old-school Swine, the White Wolf Swine (of course, at the start of the period we're talking about, the Forge didn't even exist yet).  It was always full of a considerable number of people who were actively hostile to D&D.
It became, in fact, a kind of a refuge for these people; first against the success of D&D 3.0 and its dethroning of White Wolf's position as the ideological vanguard of the hobby, and then later to a certain extent against the Forge Swine themselves, and the fact that even getting to pretend to be the hobby's "avant garde" had been taken away from them.

It stopped being so popular because you can only keep up that kind of reality bubble for so long.  Gradually there came to be more and more Forge Swine displacing the old-guard White Wolf Swine on the forum, and while White Wolf-style Swine capos like Bruce Baugh or Borgstrom/Moran are still respected over there, the specific value or fashionability of holding up Exalted as the majestic "alternative" to D&D is not relevant anymore.

RPGPundit

The mindset of Exalted's design is really interesting to me, especially how it dovetails into the swinyness (as it were).  In AD&D the method for dealing with powerful characters is to send them tougher opponents.  In Exalted the baked-in rules for dealing with powerful characters is to - whether the players want it or not - make them do horrible horrible things even if they don't want to.  A co-worker of mine was explaining Exalted to me and I posited that the "limit break" would be like an AD&D paladin doing so much good for the poor that he realizes that they'd all be better off in heaven, so he kills them all.  To which said co-worker said (enthusiastically) "Right, yeah, essentially!"

Ugh.

Do not want.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;613806A co-worker of mine was explaining Exalted to me and I posited that the "limit break" would be like an AD&D paladin doing so much good for the poor that he realizes that they'd all be better off in heaven, so he kills them all.  To which said co-worker said (enthusiastically) "Right, yeah, essentially!"

Remind me not to play with that coworker, especially as a GM.

  That's really not how it's supposed to work. For Solars, Limit is gained by :
- Suppressing your Primary Virtue.
- Encountering your Limit Break Condition.
- Believing something, and then repressing that, such as by resisting the effect of mental influence.
- Being subject to an attack that increases limit (rare, not terribly effective).

It's not about some sort of problem with virtues -- there are other systems to point out that Compassion doesn't necessarily mean compassionate to humans any more than it means compassionate to leaves of grass -- as that acting in opposition to what you really want isn't easy.

So you could create, say, a high-Compassion Character whose limit break of Red Ring Of Tears compels them to destroy when in batshit crazy mode.  But you'd never hit that limit break by simply help the sick.  You'd have to resist the urge to help the sick, or see a lot of sick people that you could not help, or be attacked by a Primordial.  And even then, it's supposed to involve attacking causes of the sickness or suffering, or uninvolved things, in preference to killing the sick.  Valor's the one toward killing for the sake of killing, if I remember correctly.

((In theory, limit break's also supposed to be a reasonably rare thing.  If your Solar is constantly a monster, that's not just because of the Great Curse, but because he or she has drastically different values from normal humanity.  Limit Break can be a part of that, since your character is supposed to rationalize his or her behavior under limit break and that can affect values, but even if you don't want to roleplay, the Usurpation still makes sense with Solars only being monsters once-a-century, when you consider what damage even a middling Essence-5 Solar can do in a scene.))

EDIT: That's for Solars.  The Lunar (seeing the full moon) and especially Infernals (Abyssic plates at 0 willpower, wtf) occur slightly more often.

EDIT2: It's also largely independent from level or experience: your Essence doesn't determine limit break (excepting to the degree that you're more dangerous the higher-Essence you are).  There are really powerful enemies for the GM to throw at you, and while many are poorly written, that's because those enemies are cthulhu monsters, or were shitty people before they Exalted or became gods or whatever.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;613806The mindset of Exalted's design is really interesting to me, especially how it dovetails into the swinyness (as it were).  In AD&D the method for dealing with powerful characters is to send them tougher opponents.  In Exalted the baked-in rules for dealing with powerful characters is to - whether the players want it or not - make them do horrible horrible things even if they don't want to.  A co-worker of mine was explaining Exalted to me and I posited that the "limit break" would be like an AD&D paladin doing so much good for the poor that he realizes that they'd all be better off in heaven, so he kills them all.  To which said co-worker said (enthusiastically) "Right, yeah, essentially!"

Ugh.

Do not want.

Why does that remind me of Warcraft with Prince Arthas in Stratholme?
Talk about destroying the city in order to save it.

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;614112Why does that remind me of Warcraft with Prince Arthas in Stratholme?
Talk about destroying the city in order to save it.

Reminds me of Kult actually.

Although, to be honest, it's more of an Abyssal solution, not a Solar one.

The old saw about two US soldiers walking out of the bombed-out ruins of a town in western France : "We sure liberated the hell out of that place, didn't we?"

Quote from: Benoist;612136Not indy forgey enough, probably. 'Needs moar metagame edgy mechanics, dude.'

I'm a long time veteran of the Exalted wars over at rpgnet.  No, the main reason that Exalted gets so much play there is because a large number of RPGNet dwellers and mods are White Wolf fans and devs, is all.

And the whole storygame thing has never come up.  Generally, WW sucks ass in terms of developing mechanics, and it costs money to pay writers to actually develop and playtest rules systems.  So, Exalted has this grotesquely cool S&S meets manga setting that is not emulated at all by the exception based mechanics.

Exalted is one of those games people desperately want to play but can't because the crap systems won't let them.

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;616022I'm a long time veteran of the Exalted wars over at rpgnet.  No, the main reason that Exalted gets so much play there is because a large number of RPGNet dwellers and mods are White Wolf fans and devs, is all.

Which came first: the interest in Exalted or the lots-of-people-there-being-WW-employees?

Quote from: RPGPundit;613785It stopped being so popular because you can only keep up that kind of reality bubble for so long.  Gradually there came to be more and more Forge Swine displacing the old-guard White Wolf Swine on the forum, and while White Wolf-style Swine capos like Bruce Baugh or Borgstrom/Moran are still respected over there, the specific value or fashionability of holding up Exalted as the majestic "alternative" to D&D is not relevant anymore.

RPGPundit

Fact time -

It actually still is hella popular, because it's WW's fantasy game (and therefore more approachable than their horror RPGs) and it actually has a pretty damned awesomely written setting.  Also, it's as traddy as traddy can be, except for it's stunt system (which is actually represented as an in-setting thing.) It's only real failing is that it's mechanics are uniformly awful in it's published second edition.  As one of the fans, I hold that Exalted needs it's own house system and should dump Storyteller, but my opinion is neither here nor there, as the current team is moving forward.

Also, it wallops the hell sales wise out of anything except D&D(in which I include PF but not the most OSR and clones, which are IMO indy games in terms of market.)  Dollars talk.

Quote from: Zak S;616026Which came first: the interest in Exalted or the lots-of-people-there-being-WW-employees?

I think the latter.  RPGNet has always had a strong WW staffer presence amongst users and mods AFAIK.

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;616028Also, it wallops the hell sales wise out of anything except D&D

Do you know if it's outperforming the Warhammer 40k-based RPGs? Whenever I go to a hobby shop I just see mostly that, D&D and Path

Quote from: Zak S;616055Do you know if it's outperforming the Warhammer 40k-based RPGs? Whenever I go to a hobby shop I just see mostly that, D&D and Path

Anectdotally, A pal of mine who runs a hobby shop in northern NJ tells me that sales for the 40K cores run at about 80% of the level Exalted did when the 1E and 2E cores were released.  Also, Exalted products are regularly gold and silver best sellers on DTRPG.

Quote from: Zak S;616055Do you know if it's outperforming the Warhammer 40k-based RPGs? Whenever I go to a hobby shop I just see mostly that, D&D and Path

Part of the issue is that WW sells exclusively online or via POD, and doesn't use the hobby store channel anymore.

At the largest game store around here Great Escape Games, 40k RPGs are a huge seller, but that place has a ginormous gameroom and hosts a ton of official 40k tournaments (Magic too).  As a result, there's crossover for 40k players who like the fluff and stuff in the RPG books.

At a FLGS north of LA with a large stock of used stuff and also of new stuff, everything White Wolf was on sale (50% off, IIRC), except Exalted. To me, that says that Exalted is way, way better selling than Mage or Vampire or Scion. That was ~2 years ago.

The "trick" with Borgstromancy is that she always means exactly what she says. It may be weird, but it's really straightforward. When, for example, you are apparently being instructed to make a melee attack with an army against someone's love of their father, that's what you do.

That works great for duels of pure ego in a fluid reality.

IIRC, she also did a lot of the charm work for Exalted, and then someone went back through and removed half the keywords. That's vaguely like someone went through a DnD spell list and deleted half of the stat block lines at random.

Savant and Sorcerer is actually my favorite Exalted splat (I WISH it had a different cover). It has a great system for dealing with demons (which is worth stealing for other games, unlike many mechanics), one of the best efforts at a writing a crafting system that I've seen, and a write-up for sorcery that has costs you might care about. Also, it has the rules for building Manses (an important game element - houses which are so spiffy that they give you magic jewelry. But, if your players are building dungeons, you're doing something right).

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;616088Part of the issue is that WW sells exclusively online or via POD, and doesn't use the hobby store channel anymore.

That's also part of the issue why large segments of the gaming population think WW went out of business (and still is).

Quote from: fectin;616195At a FLGS north of LA with a large stock of used stuff . . .

The Last Grenadier?

Quote from: fectin;616195Also, it has the rules for building Manses (an important game element - houses which are so spiffy that they give you magic jewelry. But, if your players are building dungeons, you're doing something right).

Oh shit, that's one of the things that intrigues me about Exalted. Vancian.

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;616022I'm a long time veteran of the Exalted wars over at rpgnet.  No, the main reason that Exalted gets so much play there is because a large number of RPGNet dwellers and mods are White Wolf fans and devs, is all.

And the whole storygame thing has never come up.  Generally, WW sucks ass in terms of developing mechanics, and it costs money to pay writers to actually develop and playtest rules systems.  So, Exalted has this grotesquely cool S&S meets manga setting that is not emulated at all by the exception based mechanics.

Exalted is one of those games people desperately want to play but can't because the crap systems won't let them.

Palladium: The Kitchensinking

Quote from: Novastar;616197That's also part of the issue why large segments of the gaming population think WW went out of business (and still is).

This.  For all we talk about e-commerce, what happens in TRPGs is akin to what goes on elsewhere in the economy: we use retail stores as showrooms, then go buy it from Amazon (or whatever) and trade some lag time for a cheaper cost (which doesn't mean much since we're rarely playing TPRGs more than once a week).  If it's not in the showroom, most people won't even think to look anywhere else, online or not.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;616204The Last Grenadier?

The Last Grenadier rocks, but they have a lot less room since they moved out of downtown Burbank.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;616281This.  For all we talk about e-commerce, what happens in TRPGs is akin to what goes on elsewhere in the economy: we use retail stores as showrooms, then go buy it from Amazon (or whatever) and trade some lag time for a cheaper cost (which doesn't mean much since we're rarely playing TPRGs more than once a week).  If it's not in the showroom, most people won't even think to look anywhere else, online or not.

Well, to be fair the "showroom" isn't just brick and mortar game shops, it's also online discussions and what's on your buddies' bookshelves and what people in your wider gaming community (if you are part of one) are playing.

But then again in my experience a lot of those folks are still perfectly happy with their oWoD/early nWoD/1E Exalted stuff, so my overall impression of White Wolf is of a company who haven't put out a game which caused any significant ripples for years.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;616204The Last Grenadier?

That sounds right, but it was a while ago.

Storefront part of a row of shops; counter and sales on the right; gaming area on the left; back left had boxes of used RPGs and minis.

Quote from: Warthur;616287Well, to be fair the "showroom" isn't just brick and mortar game shops, it's also online discussions and what's on your buddies' bookshelves and what people in your wider gaming community (if you are part of one) are playing.

But then again in my experience a lot of those folks are still perfectly happy with their oWoD/early nWoD/1E Exalted stuff, so my overall impression of White Wolf is of a company who haven't put out a game which caused any significant ripples for years.

Not true.  They've been coming out with a steady stream of stuff ever since they ramped up their whole online/POD thing. Also, W20, M20, Mummy and Exalted 3 are all in the pipeline.

Quote from: kaiu keiichi;616353not true.  They've been coming out with a steady stream of stuff ever since they ramped up their whole online/pod thing. Also, w20, m20, mummy and exalted 3 are all in the pipeline.

w20? M20?

I'm assuming 20-year Anniversary sets for Mage and Wraith, similar to what's been done with Vampire and Werewolf.

Quote from: fectin;616195The "trick" with Borgstromancy is that she always means exactly what she says. It may be weird, but it's really straightforward.

Well, most of the time.  She doesn't keep to it constantly, and it doesn't help that many of the other writers for the splat don't write like that.  So a Sidereal can shoot you with an arrow made of your own forgotten name, but killing a river spirit just makes the river less predictable, and Malfeas' rage is more a green nuclear fire than anything Borgstromantic.

((And even where there isn't author-editor squabbles, it doesn't always work.  She's consistent about it in Nobilis, but it still ends up trite when it doesn't have mechanical or GM-mandated impact.  And "betraying betrayal" sounds like a cartoon villain thing.))

QuoteIIRC, she also did a lot of the charm work for Exalted, and then someone went back through and removed half the keywords.  That's vaguely like someone went through a DnD spell list and deleted half of the stat block lines at random.

She has writing credits for the 1E Sidereal book, 1E Fae book, and the 2E corebook, as well as some of the background 1E books (Savant and Sorcerer, Outcastes, I think one or two others).  So she's responsible for the original incarnation of a lot of charms, but the game's changed so much since then that they've had some... issues.  It's not that someone edited out Dr. Moran's keywords.  It's that they didn't have or need keywords when she wrote them, and then someone copied Shun The Smiling Lady into the 2E splatbook without groking keywords or Duck Fate without looking at the mote economy.

So it's more like someone a splat from AD&D2 to D&D3 without realizing thac0 was depreciated, and at times forgetting that higher AC was a good thing now.

That's a consistent issue from book to book for Exalted, though.  There's authors that do a lot of communication with co-writers and either grok or avoid the nastier mechanics bits, and then there's whoever came up with Zeal or the first half of Infernals.

(Not that the 1E Fae book was exactly perfect, either.  One of the errata guys had a hilarious story where apparently itwas slapped together overnight at the last minute to get rid of a lot of Grim-style faerie junk out of it.))

Quote(But, if your players are building dungeons, you're doing something right).

It is nice to actually have a reason for the random trap-laden demon-filled dungeons out in the middle of nowhere, yes.

Re:  The Last Grenadier FLGS...

What a small world.  I grew up in Glendale and that store was mecca for me back in the day.  The last time it moved I think it was on to Hollywood Way.  Is it still there, or has it moved again?

Quote from: Drohem;616409Re:  The Last Grenadier FLGS...

What a small world.  I grew up in Glendale and that store was mecca for me back in the day.  The last time it moved I think it was on to Hollywood Way.  Is it still there, or has it moved again?

Yep, it's still there. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=last+grenadier) :)

Sorry, had to do it.

Furthering the threadjack a lil' bit, I'll be in California (LA and San Francisco) for a couple of weeks and I'm looking for game store recommendations. Feel free to PM me with them. Black Vulmea, CRKrueger and other Californians, feel free to PM-bomb me with them. ;)

Quote from: CRKrueger;616446Yep, it's still there. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=last+grenadier) :)

Sorry, had to do it.

Cool, if I actually get a trip to visit the heads and family this year I'll be making a stop there.  It's a shadow of its former self now, but I'll still make the visit out of nostalgia.

Quote from: Warthur;616381w20? M20?

Werewolf 20th Anniversary edition, Mage: The Ascension 20th anniversary edition.

Vampire: The Masquerade 20th anniversary edition was highly successful, and the next two anniversary editions are highly anticipated by WW fans.  W20 and M20 will both have kickstarters, W20's has already started and has already met it's goal.

Quote from: gattsuru;616408She has writing credits for the 1E Sidereal book, 1E Fae book, and the 2E corebook, as well as some of the background 1E books (Savant and Sorcerer, Outcastes, I think one or two others).

She wrote at least one third of Games of Divinity: the rather evocative chapter on Malfeas, Yozi, and demons.