TheRPGSite

I normally never read enworld, but lately they've had a number of threads about wizards casting in armor.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/246147-wizards-armour-collective-consciousness-6.html

 They had some highly educated examples:
Sir Gawain and the Green Knight
Malagigi/Maugris from the Legends of Roland/Charlemagne
Atlantes from Orlando Furioso

There are, of course, modern fiction examples:
Elric, Grey Mouser, Thulsa Doom, etc.

However, while reading the thread I realized that I was tremendously inspired by the legends and not at all inspired by the traditional pulp fantasy.  I don't care about Elric right now.  Malagigi, on the other hand, fills me with the urge to start a new campaign.

The thing about legendary magic is that it wasn't chopped up into divine vs. arcane, armor-wearing vs. non-armor-wearing.  It was not burdened with those particular Gygax-tastic tropes which have dominated a *lot* of games, both on the tabletop and on computers.

Since my GURPS Steampunk is going nowhere, I'm thinking of putting it on hold and doing GURPS Thaumatology as a campaign basis instead.  The idea would be to get as much "legend" feel as possible.

I'd *like* to get medieval/Renaissance history-of-magic in there as well, but of course historical occultists sometimes led very boring lives compared to Ray Harryhausen stars.  Giordano Bruno getting arrested for heresy, compared to Sinbad sword-fighting animated skeletons ... it's kind of hard for me to bridge that gap.

Edit:
For example, in many pre-modern cities, many educated and middle-class men were allowed to wear swords.  Anyone who picked up a sword might be able to use it, and so when one reads of Giordano Bruno wearing a sword to walk the streets, it's primarily asserting that he was not lower-class.  It's not saying that he got into a lot of sword-fights.  Furthermore, old grimoires often either depict the magician holding a ritual sword or else demand that he must have several swords -- so swords are not exactly alien to legendary accounts of magical training.  Of course Gygax didn't read any grimoires that I'm aware of.

Another example: The Count of St. Germain was claimed (by C.W. Leadbeater) to wear a suit of golden chain mail for certain occult rituals.  This is not quite a legend of the count fighting battles in chain mail, but it's a pleasant break from Gygaxian D&D-isms.

Suggestions are welcome, especially on literary and historical sources that show enchantment as part of ordinary life.

I'm not sure what exactly your goal is, here. Are you trying to make your wizards less Gygaxian; are you trying to make your wizards more historically accurate; are you trying to make them closer to how they're depicted in a certain selection of literary sources which probably doesn't make them historically accurate at all; or just what?

It's hard to offer any meaningful insight without knowing what you're exactly trying to achieve; but as far as historical wizards are concerned, I don't think they would make very viable adventurers, at least not in a D&D-ish dungeoncrawling kind of way. Now, I'm not really familiar with European medieval and renaissance wizardry, but I did study a bit of Arabic magic at university, which in turn borrows many things from ancient Greek thaumaturgy.

And, well, most of these spells are by and large rather slow. At the very quickest, you need to perform some symbolic act of purification and segregation, then do some handiwork creating a mixture of components or embroidering something in a napkin and chant or say something. The slower ones involve long chants, waiting for the proper time of night and going out into the countryside, or leaving the offerings in the room for a day. These kinds of spells do not exactly lend themselves to casting in the middle of a heated battle. :)

Of course, you might still be able to use them for a different kind of roleplaying campaign, like Ars Magica does.

Gerald of Wales Journey to Wales (http://www.amazon.com/Journey-Through-Description-Penguin-Classics/dp/0140443398/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228479617&sr=8-4) is a good starting point. He mixes in 'real life' observations of 12th century wales with plenty of folk lore and myth that show enchantment as part of ordinary life. It doesn't discuss people doing magic but has lots about faeries, curses and saints and shows how belief in the supernatural formed an integral part of everyday belief in the world.  

For that matter I would think most of the hagiographies would be useful as one of their purposes is to show how the subject's inherent holiness creates miracles around them. The lesser and more historical saints are probably better as the writers had to really struggle to put a magical spin on real life events (one of St Anselm's miracles has something to do with rabbits).

Any book about medieval medicine would also do you I think. Astrology, belief in humours and sympathetic magic formed a core part of the high middle ages canon of medicine along with herbalism. Although they tries to place it within a framework of reason (heavily influenced by Galen and Arabic writers), there is lots of everyday enchantment there as well.

There's the Malleus Maleficium as well, although again thats the lurid imaginations of what magicians are supposed to get up to rather than their own reports.

I'm a big fan of the Gygax-isms myself, but appreciate what you want to do. I agree with Premier about historical European magic - it's time consuming and involves carefully prepared rituals. You could try going the route of say, Call of Cthulhu, with fewer, more powerful spells (with far more unsettling restrictions than just armor) or the Fantasy Wargaming route with a focus on alchemical formulae and astrological magic which may only work 'when the stars are right'.

If you want rapid-fire spellslinging, try looking at a few non-European sources. The divisions between magic users and non-magic users is much blurrier, and the magic itself is usually done quickly and with a lot of flash.

1,001 Arabian Nights (Middle Eastern)
Mahabarata/Ramayana (Indian)
Romance of the Three Kingdoms/Journey to the West (Chinese)

For a more modern take on the fighting magician, look for Lin Carter's novel Kellory the Magician, a tale of a swordswinging, chainmail wearing, spell-slinging badass.

Finally, the computer role-playing game Darklands (available as abandonware around the net) is set in medieval Germany, and has a very interesting magic system involving alchemy, saints, and astrology.

I recall, as a teen, reading 1st edition Chivalry & Sorcery and being impressed with the magical model the authors pursued.  My recollection isn't good enough to comment on its authenticity now, but I do recall the Demonologist character class (or was it Necromancer?) that was described in loving detail as holing up in a secluded tower for months at a time, performing research that was dreadfully easy to interrupt, and performing elaborate and intricate invocations that were even easier to interrupt.  Frankly, it was all a little unplayable, but I'd love to have another look at it a couple and a half decades on.

Kellri's suggestion of adopting Call of Cthulhu magic to your game is a good one.  While not 100% authentic (after all, unlike in the real world, this magic really works), it shies decidedly away from the flash-boom school of magical casting and at least tries for verisimilitude (with, of course, the exception that it really works in the game).  You might also check out the Nephilim core book, and its counter-supplement Liber Ka, both of which can be had on the cheap, and both of which detail a more ceremony-dependent and condition-influenced style of magic.  Arguments will be made for and against the authenticity of either book, but if it's a workable model you're looking for, I'd suggest either.

!i!

The Savage worlds of Soloman Kane also has a nice ritual based magic system, which is rather simple and flexible.

I've read a bit on mainly late classical magic. Curses, luck, and mind bending along the lines of love spells were the most common. Location often mattered - for example a curse tablet against the opposing chariot team might have to be buried under the track. A curse or charm might have to be hidden under the bed.
 
Various kinds of astrology/prediction/portents were common too.  
 
Arcana Mundi by Georg Luck has quite a few translations of original sources.

Oh, yeah, and if you're doing steampunk you better check out Manly Wade Wellman's Silver John novels. Back-country ritual magician who's not afraid to use a gun.

The book Fantasy Wargaming, already mentioned, had a lengthy discussion of role-playing in a more medieval-like society, including magic. From memory there were different magical traditions for different social classes and religions. The group that were most like role-playing wizards were upper-class Christians. They were believed to be devil-worshippers, but they themselves believed their magic came from God, and their rituals involved various kinds of purification (wearing unsullied white garments for example).

Quote from: Premier;271419I'm not sure what exactly your goal is, here. Are you trying to make your wizards less Gygaxian; are you trying to make your wizards more historically accurate; are you trying to make them closer to how they're depicted in a certain selection of literary sources which probably doesn't make them historically accurate at all; or just what?

... These kinds of spells do not exactly lend themselves to casting in the middle of a heated battle. :)

I should have been more specific.  I had several purposes:
1) Typical fan-boy gushing about how much I love these sources;
2) An appeal for people to share their favorite sources (which several folks have already kindly done);
3) A reflection on how Gygaxisms are pervasive and how to design a game without them.

You mentioned "casting spells in the heat of battle."  Definitely, most people did not do magic as such in battle -- they didn't even pray with long, elaborate ceremonies in battle.  A quick "Deus Lo Volte" might make the cut, but anything longer didn't get chanted, for the most part.

However, people definitely had battle frenzies, and some of them interpreted those experiences mystically.  Likewise, if one takes psionics to be rooted in fact, any warrior who had a quick, inexplicable intuition that he must dodge a danger he couldn't see is having an in-battle psionic experience.

I guess that I should make a list of Gygaxisms:
1) Wizards are self-contained, fragile artillery pieces;
2) Wizards do not wear armor/armor causes spell failure;
3) Arcane magic cannot do any kind of healing effect;
4) Magic runs on energy (rather than being a nonlocal effect);
5) Magic spells are easily seen and noticed, like comic-book superhero stuff;
6) Magic is a special class ability and ordinary folks can't do it;
7) The dynamics of magic don't lead to a worldview;

I bet there are more.

The first three are game-focused, IMHO.  But (4), (5), and (6) make me wonder how many comic books Gygax had to read in order to turn traditional legends of magic inside out.

The legends of magic don't seem to be highly constrained by energy, ammunition, and similar modern ideas.  Magic has an infinite amount of force.  The limits are that one must be purified of mundane concerns, one must concentrate one's mind, and possibly the external (e.g. astrological) factors must be right, etc.   This notion was appropriate for humans living in a world that felt dominated by natural forces far beyond human control -- e.g. the seasons, the motions of the stars, etc.  Doing magic was a utilization of cosmic force for many ancient philosophers.  (Of course, beliefs about magic were highly diverse.  Not everyone was a Hermetic Monist.)

Gygaxism (4) implies that external circumstances short of an "anti-magic field" or armor on the wizard are irrelevant, but the internal limit of whether the wizard has enough spell slots is very important.  This Gygaxism turns magic inside out for me.  Magic is no longer cosmic or monistic, but rather another specific chunk of a world.

(5) drives me crazy.  The whole reason magic was special was that it was almost always invisible.  People saw unexplained things and they didn't know -- is this magic or not?  Is my son sick because he just got sick, or is he sick because a witch cursed him?  Does the old, abandoned house feel creepy because I'm a scaredy cat or because I'm sensing a ghost I can't quite see?  

This leads into (6), the fact that most people believed they could infer the presence of magic even if they weren't wizards. This way that ordinary people felt that they could almost sense magic,that magic words were always on the tip of the tongue, but not quite conscious -- this is a defining aspect of magic for me.


Many thanks for the references suggested so far!  I will try to gather them into a list and check them systematically.  Many of the cited references are familiar to me, such as Arcana Mundi and Fantasy Wargaming.  Some sources, such as Journey to Wales, I have not encountered before.

Quote from: Ian Absentia;271446Kellri's suggestion of adopting Call of Cthulhu magic to your game is a good one.  While not 100% authentic (after all, unlike in the real world, this magic really works), it shies decidedly away from the flash-boom school of magical casting and at least tries for verisimilitude (with, of course, the exception that it really works in the game).  You might also check out the Nephilim core book, and its counter-supplement Liber Ka, both of which can be had on the cheap, and both of which detail a more ceremony-dependent and condition-influenced style of magic.  Arguments will be made for and against the authenticity of either book, but if it's a workable model you're looking for, I'd suggest either.

!i!

Back in the 1980s and early 1990s, I ran a lot of Call of Cthulhu.  In retrospect, I shouldn't have; while I love Lovecraft, and I love the BRP framework, I really hate Call of Cthulhu.  Unfortunately it took a few years of pain for me to stop the cycle of problems.

I love Nephilim.  It's not suitable for my current group, but I might be getting a new group.

The key difference between Nephilim and anything put out by White Wolf is that the creators of Nephilim (seem to have) loved occultism and (seem to have) respected occultists, whereas White Wolf seemed to hate occultism and seemed to feel contempt for occultists.  Ironically, some former White Wolf writers are scraping by, making ends meet by selling articles to occult magazines.  

Anyway,IMHO, Nephilim does a much-better-than-average job of getting the feel of occultism into gameplay.  I could look up a few specific examples -- I think the feast of the Dying God is an effect that might have been inspired by some real-life occult orgies.  Of course, in the TRPG, the magic can't be disrupted by outside interruptions, and in real life occult orgies are quite vulnerable to police raids.

Quote from: riprock;2715975) Magic spells are easily seen and noticed, like comic-book superhero stuff;

Charm Plants
Clairaudience
Clairvoyance
Clone
Comprehend Languages
Confusion
Contact Other Plane
Distance Distortion
Erase
ESP
Extension
Feign Death
Fools Gold
Forget
Fumble
Glassee
Hold Portal
Infravision
Knock
Legend Lore
Locate Object
Magic Jar
Massmorph
Mending
Permanency
Polymorph Self, Other, Any Object
Push
Remove Curse
Shape Change
Sleep
Suggestion
Tenser's Floating Disc
Trap the Soul
Unseen Servant
Ventriloquism
Water Breathing
Wizard Lock
Write

Ars Magica, and Harnmaster Magic are two that attempt to have a more medieval feel to their magic. Ars Magica in particular has tried to encompass the full range of folklore and history in their rules and supplements.

Quote from: StormBringer;271602Charm Plants
Clairaudience
Clairvoyance
Clone
Comprehend Languages
Confusion
Contact Other Plane
Distance Distortion
Erase
ESP
Extension
Feign Death
Fools Gold
Forget
Fumble
Glassee
Hold Portal
Infravision
Knock
Legend Lore
Locate Object
Magic Jar
Massmorph
Mending
Permanency
Polymorph Self, Other, Any Object
Push
Remove Curse
Shape Change
Sleep
Suggestion
Tenser's Floating Disc
Trap the Soul
Unseen Servant
Ventriloquism
Water Breathing
Wizard Lock
Write

All of those are spells which are more atmospheric and less comic-book-y.  So if you intended them as counter-examples, point well taken.

I know they didn't get a lot of play in most actual play situations I've seen -- the big winners were magic missile, invisibility, fireball, fly.

Quote from: estar;271620Ars Magica, and Harnmaster Magic are two that attempt to have a more medieval feel to their magic. Ars Magica in particular has tried to encompass the full range of folklore and history in their rules and supplements.

I've never played Harnmaster: that magic looked a lot like Andre Norton/Leigh Brackett/Jack Vance psionics.  That's a compliment, by the way.

Ars Magica, in its original edition, definitely got a lot of medieval atmosphere into the game.  I'm not entirely crazy about that game, but it definitely warrants praise.

Quote from: riprock;271947All of those are spells which are more atmospheric and less comic-book-y.  So if you intended them as counter-examples, point well taken.

I know they didn't get a lot of play in most actual play situations I've seen -- the big winners were magic missile, invisibility, fireball, fly.

That's true, but it depends on how combat oriented a particular group is.  Mostly, it was dungeon delving, so the flashy spells got the spotlight much of the time.  In a more urban, intrigue focused game, these spells would get much greater use.

If you change the casting time for these from rounds to hours, or even days, you will have a bit more of the medieval flavour you are seeking.   Granted, the list is a good deal shorter than the overall list of Magic-User spells, however.  The list can be beefed up a somewhat with mid- to high-level Illusionist spells, such as Minor or Major Creation, Demi-Shadow Monsters, or Astral Spell.

Quote from: riprock;271597You mentioned "casting spells in the heat of battle."  Definitely, most people did not do magic as such in battle -- they didn't even pray with long, elaborate ceremonies in battle.  A quick "Deus Lo Volte" might make the cut, but anything longer didn't get chanted, for the most part.

As a tidbit, when pre-Islamic Arab tribes went to war, they'd bring along their shamans, who would wait until the armies are assembled for battle, then declaim some magic spells towards the enemy. A common feature of these spells was that they rhymed. This magic was so feared that the enemy army would then quickly duck or throw themselves on the ground so that the rhymes flying through the air would miss them.

Of course, there are lots of similar things in history. Early Christian Celts would have a monk display a highly valuable religious book towards the enemy to ensure divine aid - or if you wish to put it differently, the book's "magic" - will favour them and ham the enemy.

Spells like stat boosts, bless/blight. and prayer are similar to what Premier described - a small boost to a large group taht might give them the edge.  If a game has morale, spells/items that raise/lower it would be reasonable.

Riprock, if you can read Spanish, get Aquelarre. It does exactly what you want, and it does it better than any other game out there.

Quote from: Premier;271998As a tidbit, when pre-Islamic Arab tribes went to war, they'd bring along their shamans, who would wait until the armies are assembled for battle, then declaim some magic spells towards the enemy. A common feature of these spells was that they rhymed. This magic was so feared that the enemy army would then quickly duck or throw themselves on the ground so that the rhymes flying through the air would miss them.

Of course, there are lots of similar things in history. Early Christian Celts would have a monk display a highly valuable religious book towards the enemy to ensure divine aid - or if you wish to put it differently, the book's "magic" - will favour them and ham the enemy.

No wonder the Crusaders got as far as they did.  With warrior monks hamming the doughty Saracens, Allah must have looked with disfavor...

*cough*

...Okay, I can't take that joke any farther.

It's interesting to hear about dodging the rhymes by physically ducking.  I'll have to look into that.  Any titles you can recommend would help.

QuoteSpells like stat boosts, bless/blight. and prayer are similar to what Premier described - a small boost to a large group taht might give them the edge. If a game has morale, spells/items that raise/lower it would be reasonable.

I've actually been looking at The Imperial Age, which is heavily d20.  It isn't so good that I would recommend it, but it does have a clunky ritual magic system.  My main objection is that the d20 tropes are stuck in my head with all my old gaming habits and that my creative juices refuse to flow.  Perhaps if I took The Imperial Age and then heavily restricted the spell list, it would work...

Quoteif you can read Spanish, get Aquelarre. It does exactly what you want, and it does it better than any other game out there.

I can't but one of my players is fluent.  He is also lazy and in love with his Wii, but if I buy the book, I can go to his apartment and demand translations.

I've been looking for legends of medieval magic, but I've stumbled across vampire stories where the vampires resemble living enchanters, not undead monsters.


Bram Stoker's vampire set the dominant tropes, but I've recently learned that the 19th century explosion of British vampire fiction was inspired by a glut of German vampire fiction.

The German fiction seems to have been derived from an outbreak of historical accusations that malevolent dead persons were teleporting out their graves, causing mischief (poltergeist phenomena, killings, etc.) and then teleporting back into their graves.    Blood-drinking doesn't appear to be a big focus of the stories; the evil spirits behave much like any other kind of evil spirit. These vampires don't have to bite you to kill you -- they can just make you sicken, wither, and slowly die. When exhumed, the bodies in question were not decomposed, and were dark with blood.  In some cases, they actually seemed to contain dozens of gallons of blood when cut open.  These corpses were destroyed by various means, notably decapitation, removal of the heart, and fire. (I have looked for folklore about stakes through the heart, but have not found any.  Some peasants ripped out the entire heart and shredded it.  Apparently the peasant life made some people rough-and-ready for that kind of butchery.)  Empress Maria Theresa of Austria sent her physician to investigate, and he concluded that the peasants were superstitious idiots.From that point on, vampires were a respectable fiction topic, but not a legal topic.

It looks like Southey was an important figure, with his "Thalaba the Destroyer" in 1801, but the animated corpse in question is "livid" i.e. dark with blood, just like the historical accusations of vampires swollen with gallons of blood.  Southey's vampire is dispatched with a spear through the heart, not a wooden stake.

Byron threw a couple of couplets about vampires into "The Giaour," but most of the poem is not about vampires, so far as I can tell.  Honestly, it's not easy reading.  The vampire bit basically says that vampires are forced to prey on their beloved living relatives, and that by drinking that blood, the vampire suffers, and the relative suffers.

Byron also started a vampire story -- but there's no blood and ghosts.  It's not a typical vampire story at all, it's a wizard story.  It's called "Augustus Darvell."

http://www.simplysupernatural-vampire.com/vampire-Byron-Augustus-Darvell.html

Okay, so this guy can die and rise again -- as himself, not as some kind of animated corpse moved by an unclean spirit.  That's wizard territory.  This guy is not "undead," he's a living guy who can die and come back to life.  Further, this guy doesn't appear to have any interest in blood.  He does have a wizardly interest in omens, talismans, and oaths, and he prances around in bright sunlight.

Quote"'Swear it, by all that ' He here dictated an oath of great solemnity. "There is no occasion for this. I will observe your request; and to doubt me is-' "'It cannot be helped, you must swear.' "I took the oath, it appeared to relieve him. He removed a seal ring from his finger, on which were some Arabic characters, and presented it to me. He proceeded~ "'On the ninth day of the month, at noon precisely (what month you please, but this must be the day), you must fling this ring into the salt springs which run into the Bay of Eleusis; the day after, at the same hour, you must repair to the ruins of the temple of Ceres, and wait one hour.' "'Why?' "'You will see.' "The ninth day of the month, you say?' "'The ninth.'
...
As he sat, evidently becoming more feeble, a stork, with a snake in her beak, perched upon a tombstone near us; and, without devouring her prey, appeared to be steadfastly regarding us. I know not what impelled me to drive it away, but the attempt was useless; she made a few circles in the air, and returned exactly to the same spot. Darvell pointed to it, and smiled- he spoke - I know not whether to himself or to me - but the words were only, "Tis well!'

He even has a stupid assistant, as so many wizards do.  

Polidori's story, The Vampyre, is actually pretty cool.  The first chapter is a rip-off from Byron's story, but that's okay because Byron was ripping off Southey and the Germans.

Polidori's vampire, Ruthven, is more like an "enchanter" in Arthurian romance.  He can cast geases on people, sometimes without appearing to cast a spell.  Anyone who comes into contact with him runs the risk of having a cursed destiny.

That's pretty cool.  I want to underline how much I enjoyed that part of the story.  But Ruthven appears to be, like Darvell, a perfectly human wizard who can rise from the dead.  Ruthven does need moonlight, rather than sunlight, but that's an astrologically-themed wizard story, not a vampire story.  Ruthven's most powerful geas requires a spoken oath, but it's a doozy of an oath.  The story is worth reading to see just how powerful that oath becomes.  Ruthven also appears to have a pulp-mentalist feel -- he has the mesmerizing presence, the hypnotically dead eyes, the mind-controlling brain-washer aspect.

(It appears that stage presentations of vampires tended to play up the moonlight aspect, and used actors "flying" on wires and ascending from trap-doors to blur the line between spirits (who are expected to fly without walking) and embodied creatures (who must walk).)

Le Fanu's story, Carmilla, has a typically medieval element with its almost qabalistic letter-swapping theme.  Carmilla teleports, changes into a beast form, enchants without appearing to cast a spell, and generally mentally dominates those around her -- within the limits of courtesy.  She has a rare power -- she can become ultra-strong in emergencies.   She has few weaknesses - Christian hymns cause her pain and convulsions, and she dies if her body is exhumed from its grave and destroyed, but sunlight is no problem. Carmilla does drink blood.

(I'm shocked to read that Carmilla was published in 1872 and Dracula was published in 1897!)


In closing, I want to note that Bram Stoker was reportedly a member of the G.D., i.e. the Golden Dawn, along with the nonfiction occult writer, Dion Fortune.  Fortune's theory of vampirism was this: it had nothing to do with blood, and everything to do with life-force.  Vampires who died were actually manifesting an astral body that could drain life-force out of living people and storing it in their buried corpses.  That is why, when exhumed, the corpses hadn't rotted -- they were being sustained by an astral connection to various sources of energy.

Your last post contains lots of cool ideas.  I wonder why Dracula became so popular when and all the others faded.

Quote from: riprock;273461It's interesting to hear about dodging the rhymes by physically ducking.  I'll have to look into that.  Any titles you can recommend would help.

No written source for specifically the rhymes thing, sorry. It was related by the professor as a piece of tidbit, but it didn't come from the reading list. Frazer's The Golden Bough, though, would be a good all-around source for historical magic stuff.

However, if you have any savvy acquaintants who speak Arabic and often travel the area (and are preferably older-looking, bearded academics of anthropology), they might be able to get you some actual spellbooks. The things are still being printed and published unofficially. They're not in the libraries and they don't have any ISBN information, but they can be acquired in some countries, such as Morocco, likely also Algeria, Tunis and Egypt.

Of course, they're all in Arabic and they don't exactly look much on the outside, but still...

A couple of folklore nuggets about Vampirism, the undead and burial practises...

Mourning at a funeral was believed to keep the recently dead from returning to plague the living. If they saw how miserable it was, they wouldn't want to come back.

Water was believed to be able to trap souls (maybe this led to the no reflection in mirrors myth about vampires). So at funerals, or if a village was suffering from a vampire plague, the locals would place bowls of water next to their doors. If a vampire passed it, their undead soul would be sucked into the water.

People were buried standing up to make clawing from the grave harder. To seal the deal, a heavy stone was placed above the buried persons head, above the ground. Yep, headstones.

Nailing a copper wire onto your threshold or window-panes was supposed to stop evil spirits coming into your house.

Often, the only clue that someone was a walking corpse (they did not seem to decompose in the grave) was decomposition of the nose.

Quote from: Nicephorus;273487Your last post contains lots of cool ideas.  I wonder why Dracula became so popular when and all the others faded.

I could speculate about the Golden Dawn having a lot of influence, but I'm too tired to be that speculative.

The subject is deep and I lose hours and hours just doing basic reading for it, so I don't want to start outlining the trivia I've amassed in the past two weeks, researching this.  I haven't been posting here because I've been reading old fantasy stories, and it is a massive time sink.

Quote from: Premier;273501No written source for specifically the rhymes thing, sorry. It was related by the professor as a piece of tidbit, but it didn't come from the reading list. Frazer's The Golden Bough, though, would be a good all-around source for historical magic stuff.

However, if you have any savvy acquaintants who speak Arabic and often travel the area (and are preferably older-looking, bearded academics of anthropology), they might be able to get you some actual spellbooks. The things are still being printed and published unofficially. They're not in the libraries and they don't have any ISBN information, but they can be acquired in some countries, such as Morocco, likely also Algeria, Tunis and Egypt.

Of course, they're all in Arabic and they don't exactly look much on the outside, but still...

I was actually planning to travel in Egypt about seven years ago for pretty much exactly that purpose, and then some idiot started a war in Iraq and put a real crimp in my travel plans.

So I haven't learned Arabic as I had scheduled myself to do.

I have notes somewhere about the grimoires permitted as Islamic "white" magic and the grimoires that are not.  Actually a lot of books that Christians would regard as totally occult are considered by Moslems to be boring descriptions of the theological errors of obscure sects.

I lost a few days to a re-examination of Islamic occultism from about 800 A.D. to 1500 A.D. just before Christmas....

Quote from: One Horse Town;273575Often, the only clue that someone was a walking corpse (they did not seem to decompose in the grave) was decomposition of the nose.

So clearly, Michael Jackson has been dead since about 1988.

Sorry for the thread necro, I was looking up references to Ars Magica. Picked up 4th edition at Half-Price books over the weekend. Looks cool.

Quote from: Age of Fable;271543The book Fantasy Wargaming, already mentioned, had a lengthy discussion of role-playing in a more medieval-like society, including magic. From memory there were different magical traditions for different social classes and religions. The group that were most like role-playing wizards were upper-class Christians. They were believed to be devil-worshippers, but they themselves believed their magic came from God, and their rituals involved various kinds of purification (wearing unsullied white garments for example).

yes, but Galloway's Fantasy Wargaming causes cancer.  So that's right out.

Quote from: Premier;271998As a tidbit, when pre-Islamic Arab tribes went to war, they'd bring along their shamans, who would wait until the armies are assembled for battle, then declaim some magic spells towards the enemy. A common feature of these spells was that they rhymed. This magic was so feared that the enemy army would then quickly duck or throw themselves on the ground so that the rhymes flying through the air would miss them.

Of course, there are lots of similar things in history. Early Christian Celts would have a monk display a highly valuable religious book towards the enemy to ensure divine aid - or if you wish to put it differently, the book's "magic" - will favour them and ham the enemy.

I find the post islamic marabout pretty intriguing as well (and more medieval). the whole concept that magical power was contained in Baraka and could be transferred between individuals and sontained withing fluids etc seems to have a lot of game potential.

Quote from: Werekoala;304621So clearly, Michael Jackson has been dead since about 1988.

Now THERE'S a premise for a modern horror game if ever I saw one!

RPGPundit

For myself( and I'm sure a lot  of their GM's) I really dislike spells that completely tilt the odd to the players advantage  such as teleportation, polymorthing , cure disease, cure critical wounds, demon/monster summoning. I'm not saying I don't allow any of this stuff, but I want to make it a bit more justified and reasonable ( unless  you found some one-of-the-kind artifact or  the PC is at a super high level). A cure critical/heavy wounds should stop the bleeding, but it  shouldn't mean you can attach your severed arm. Otherwise every Peasant and Swineherder will be whistling dixie  knowing they  can get their hacked  off leg or pox ridden lungs back to normal by their local cleric. :P

Quote from: mrk;304734For myself( and I'm sure a lot  of their GM's) I really dislike spells that completely tilt the odd to the players advantage  such as teleportation, polymorthing , cure disease, cure critical wounds, demon/monster summoning. I'm not saying I don't allow any of this stuff, but I want to make it a bit more justified and reasonable ( unless  you found some one-of-the-kind artifact or  the PC is at a super high level). A cure critical/heavy wounds should stop the bleeding, but it  shouldn't mean you can attach your severed arm. Otherwise every Peasant and Swineherder will be whistling dixie  knowing they  can get their hacked  off leg or pox ridden lungs back to normal by their local cleric. :P

This is only an issue in game worlds where everyone has a huge number of levels. How many people in the bible, or the odyssey, or king arthor, or lord of the rings are powerful enough to cast spells like that? Just don't run a ton of high level npc casters.

Quote from: Cranewings;304737This is only an issue in game worlds where everyone has a huge number of levels. How many people in the bible, or the odyssey, or king arthor, or lord of the rings are powerful enough to cast spells like that? Just don't run a ton of high level npc casters.

It's not about the NPC's but the PC's! And if your playing any edition of Dee N Dee, those spells are easy to come by. For myself,  the games that I GM  it's not much of a issue as I have changed many of the spells, but for other GM's It has to be a real headache! Especially with  the "new" rules.

Quote from: mrk;304734For myself( and I'm sure a lot  of their GM's) I really dislike spells that completely tilt the odd to the players advantage  such as teleportation, polymorthing , cure disease, cure critical wounds, demon/monster summoning. I'm not saying I don't allow any of this stuff, but I want to make it a bit more justified and reasonable ( unless  you found some one-of-the-kind artifact or  the PC is at a super high level). A cure critical/heavy wounds should stop the bleeding, but it  shouldn't mean you can attach your severed arm. Otherwise every Peasant and Swineherder will be whistling dixie  knowing they  can get their hacked  off leg or pox ridden lungs back to normal by their local cleric. :P

I think its a shame that you don't like these sorts of spells as I would say they are staples of the fantasy genre (maybe not so much the cure spells) . as for peasents getting access to such things I think it unlikely. Personally I am still a 2E fan so our clerics all have spheres and quite a few don't even have cure spells, but even if we don't use that then a local 'preist ' in a village chapel would be 1st - 2nd level at best (if not a 0 level human) and require some sort of offering to their gods in return for miracles.
If you look at the 'making magic more medieval' idea this is definitely the case as access to the priestly class was severly restricted for the poor. The best they could hope for would be the local abbey giving out alms or the administration of the basic sacrements by the local priest.

I was looking in my collection last night and would recommend the following texts for an understanding of 'Magick'
Lewis Spence - History of the Occult (good pooted histories of all the big names St Germain, Crowley, Eliphas Levi etc)
Colin Wilson - The Occult (just a great book)
EE Evans-Pritchard - Witchcraft and Magic amongst the Azande (this is the best 'modern' treatise on the logic of magic)
Buck E Schieffelin - The Sorrow of the Lonely and the Burning of the Dancers (good analysis on ritual forms but I might be biased as he was my proff at Uni)
Also if you can trace them down then there are some excellent essays Levi-Strauss's on shaman as psychanalysts (http://www.whalecrow.co.uk/whalec/2009/04/06/shamans-as-psychoanalysts-claude-levi-strauss/) , and Leech's 'Magical Hair'.
Lastly if you are curious this google book has csome good stuff on Baraka and Marabouts (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=bIdQHy2O_MsC&pg=PA150&lpg=PA150&dq=marabouts+and+baraka&source=bl&ots=ob8_3aqAaX&sig=qArYIXUXMxIkSi7mWEOrBTQvf_A&hl=en&ei=3_kcStX4H9Po-QbSzuXWCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#PPA149,M1)

Quote from: jibbajibba;304785I think its a shame that you don't like these sorts of spells as I would say they are staples of the fantasy genre (maybe not so much the cure spells) . as for peasents getting access to such things I think it unlikely. Personally I am still a 2E fan so our clerics all have spheres and quite a few don't even have cure spells, but even if we don't use that then a local 'preist ' in a village chapel would be 1st - 2nd level at best (if not a 0 level human) and require some sort of offering to their gods in return for miracles.
If you look at the 'making magic more medieval' idea this is definitely the case as access to the priestly class was severly restricted for the poor. The best they could hope for would be the local abbey giving out alms or the administration of the basic sacrements by the local priest.
/QUOTE]

I NEVER said I don't have that form of magic in my game only just that it isn't as easy or accessible. I've done my fair share  of powergaming in the past and I just don't have an interest of returning back into that style of gameplay.

Also the fact that magic is real and quite abundant in a Gygaxian world, those basic spells would change the world drastically. If you look at it realistically, a basic healing spell could mean stopping a wound from festering or making food out of  air  could put a hold  of or even stop  people from starvation. those basic spells people take for granite in a game would have major consequences upon the world and society  as a whole.

Quote from: mrk;304811I NEVER said I don't have that form of magic in my game only just that it isn't as easy or accessible. I've done my fair share  of powergaming in the past and I just don't have an interest of returning back into that style of gameplay.

Also the fact that magic is real and quite abundant in a Gygaxian world, those basic spells would change the world drastically. If you look at it realistically, a basic healing spell could mean stopping a wound from festering or making food out of  air  could put a hold  of or even stop  people from starvation. those basic spells people take for granite in a game would have major consequences upon the world and society  as a whole.

I definitely agree withe h statement about it changing the game world and where I have a lot of magic tha tis exactly what is does. My games are generally low magic but the PCs are likely the exception to that rule (well they are if they are mages or clerics). I wouldn't take them for Granted though and they certainly wouldn't be available to the masses.

I've always kinda liked the idea of low-powered magic (like cantrips or zero-level spells in 3e) being accessible to most anyone who learns it. I know in many cultures they think (or thought) that almost anyone could cast curses and minor spells, put charms or wards on doors and windows, etc. Save the high-power stuff for true mages and adventurers, but why not let Goody Nestor know "Mend" or something useful to the peasants, but ignored by the mighty?

Never actually done this, mind you, but I don't have a conceptual problem with it.

Some of the best best Cantrips rules I've ever seen is the ones in Arduin Grimoire 7 and 8. I liked them so much I 've actually toyed the idea of expanding them and make them into the primary magic in my  game world- now that's really crippling people wanting to play magic users  :D

Quote from: RPGPundit;304655Now THERE'S a premise for a modern horror game if ever I saw one!

RPGPundit

Nah, Paranoia, only each time a clone is activated, a clone is made of it, with the inevitable presence of errors in the copy. How many do you think he has gone through by now?

A suggestion for D&D (I can't remember where I saw this, maybe the odd74 forum) was for memorized spells to have cantrip like side effects. So if you had fireball memorized, you could do things like light pipes, or anything else you could do with a lighter. Personally I like the idea of Evard's black tentacles setting the dinner table :D

Liber Ka is also good; if you can check out the oWoD Dark Ages Mage that had some changes to the regular Mage system that might be useful as inspirational material if nothing else, as Mage is a little overpowered for a serious medieval setting.

You know, with the exception of Forgotten Realms and Eberron, I've never seen anything in D&D that suggests that magic necessarily has to be "abundant" in any way shape or form.  In my view, PCs are supposed to be special cases, a cut above even the gentry, the heroes and villains of the game world.  There's nothing there that requires every other town to have a 20th level wizard, you could just as easily run a campaign where even a 6th level one would be incredibly rare and revered or feared as a great figure by the local populace, or even thought of as only a legend.  Seems to me this was even the case in old school D&D, that after the mid levels you were approaching some seriously legendary power and that was why the assumption that everyone would move towards consolidating that power in the form of their own kingdom or guild or tower.

that's not the problem as you can run a campaign at any level.  The truth is it's not about the NPC's, but the  PC's and one of my biggest peeves is sometimes the players get  too much power and overbalance the game. Afterall, you don't want the PC's to just easily TELEPORT into the Dungeon, you want them to  WALK inside. Being able to "cheat"  through things just removes a certain aesthetic to the gameplay.That's why I like keeping magic at lower forms of power that way the high level stuff really is special and not just another spell people can cast at their disposal.

Any RPG where players can use magic ceases to be truly "medieval", even Ars Magica, due to the necessity of codification.  Magicians become scientists and engineers purely as a consequences of that necessity, much as their real counterparts did- as discoveries in the recent years reveal, a lot of the ancient world did understand far more about how reality worked (i.e. scientific understanding) than previously believed, and many priesthoods did functional work as scientists, technicians and engineers because that is how they found and kept their "magic".

The answer, therefore, is to remove access to magic-working from the players.

Try getting a book "Magic in the Middle Ages" by Kieckhoffer? IIRC it might give you some ideas. One of the things I've noticed is magic often has subtle effects: warding, healing, etc. That few games focus on. (The significant difference between magic and faith is essentially: Religion propitiates and Magic demands/commands. One says "please help.." the other says "DO THIS..")