WE jump to the "worse evil DM scenario" because we didn't get that you were actually asking "how do you deal with surprise actions from your players?"

Like I said in the other thread about "GM Contrivances," there is nothing surprising to me in the initial scenario.  The players can do any possible action, so a player deciding to switch sides is just another action.  There is nothing to "think fast" ABOUT.

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So if the players decide to take off after the dread highwayman Celerus the Nutpuncher, they could never find him, they could fight him and get punched in the nuts, they could throw in with him and join his Squeaky Men, or one of the PCs could punch HIM in the nuts and declare that SHE is the new Celerus the Nutpuncher! Like Dread Pirate Roberts, only with more nut punching.

Or, the PCs could say, "Sod this, we're going to hire a boat and look for the Island of Concupiscent Redheads to find the shy and gentle Huge-Hootered Winklekisser."

Or the female PCs could say "To hell with you, WE're going to sail to the Island of Male Swimmers and Gymnasts who Cook and Give Foot Rubs."

Or something else.

Quote from: trechriron;939095I don't understand how, after reading the scenario I posited, that everyone is inferring so much background. Also, why are you all jumping to the worse Evil DM scenario?

In the part you quoted me from this thread, I was responding to the people in this thread on a tangent asserting that every GM has big bosses, trying to talk about that distinction.

QuoteWhat if several clues discovered during previous adventures pointed to the possibility of this scepter being both a source of power and a way to bypass the BigBadEvilGuy's defenses? Now, why does this mean this is the ONLY way to bypass his defenses?

Er, perhaps because you wrote in the OP: "All the clues point to one solution - the heroes MUST toss the scepter into the fires in the deep chasm or BIGBAD will be too powerful to defeat."?

QuoteWhy assume that this DM in the scenario is railroading his players?

Well, it sounds to me like he likely is, from the bit I mentioned. Which is why in my reply to the original thread, I went into so much detail about how I might do it if somehow that were a scenario in a game I were running. I mentioned many possible ways it could go, and I don't recall any of them being railroads.

QuoteYou know what's even more disconcerting about this thought exercise?

The setup placed YOU as the GM. YOU are GMing the scenario. I made no mention of how you got there, or the setup, or anything. In media res you find yourself at this moment, and then I ask "What do you do?".

This leads me to believe that the bulk of people admonishing this terrible GM are actually admonishing themselves! It's also an interesting dive into the psychology of people. Even with all the power, all the imagination, all the ability to frame your response with you being in control - you still pissed all over the GM (yourselves). Weird.

Maybe, understanding the purpose of [Think Fast] - some of you want to stop pissing on yourselves and answer the question with "the FULL power of your fully operational GMing capabilities"?

I'm not sure entirely where you're coming from with this. In my case, in that thread, I think I was pretty clear that if it were my game, what the situation and background would tend to be like, which seemed needful to answer the question in a meaningful context. I didn't say the GM was terrible, but how I might have set it up and many ways it might go. I avoided saying I would do one particular thing, because I wanted to emphasize that it could go many ways, much of which would have to do with the players and how the action played out.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;939052I think he means that he doesn't create bosses as gates to pass through to advance the party along a central storyline but instead worlds for the PCs to rattle around in with 'bosses' as lesser and greater challenges that players may or may not choose to work against and eventually have to deal with.

But that's how the 'Quest' works, whether or not he's telling a story, a human (and I use the term loosely to represent NPC's that will likely hinder the players in some fashion, also likely to be combative) will be a 'gate' that the players will need to pass.  The whole Boss thing is a construct that existed LONG before video games.  And will continue as long as we mouth breathers exist.

Quote from: trechriron;939095I don't understand how, after reading the scenario I posited, that everyone is inferring so much background.

Because without prior setup we have to make guesses on our own.

Quote from: trechriron;939095Also, why are you all jumping to the worse Evil DM scenario?

Ignoring the fact that this is the RPGSite, the home of the dispossessed dregs of the Big Purple, and that's what we do, human nature often immediately assumes the worse.  And when you have people who champion the old vs. the new, is this really such a surprise?

Quote from: trechriron;939095You know what's even more disconcerting about this thought exercise?

The setup placed YOU as the GM. YOU are GMing the scenario. I made no mention of how you got there, or the setup, or anything. In media res you find yourself at this moment, and then I ask "What do you do?".

Very few people can operate with an improv scenario on the fly.  I've been doing it for 30 years.  And the only reason I haven't responded to this because I don't know the players involved, because I've never played with them.  However, if they were a gaming crew I played, which meant trusted, I'd already have thought of a circumstance for them to resolve.  But again, I don't know this imaginary table well enough to make any sort of assumptions.

Quote from: trechriron;939095This leads me to believe that the bulk of people admonishing this terrible GM are actually admonishing themselves! It's also an interesting dive into the psychology of people. Even with all the power, all the imagination, all the ability to frame your response with you being in control - you still pissed all over the GM (yourselves). Weird.

See above.  Most DM/GMs plan ahead, and when someone throws a screwball some don't know how to react, so they pause the game and think on it.  But it often boils down to 'Who am I gaming with'.  Because what you do WILL depend on who is at the table.  Personal experience:  I will react different if I'm running a con table than with my friends to the same scenario.

Quote from: trechriron;939095Maybe, understanding the purpose of [Think Fast] - some of you want to stop pissing on yourselves and answer the question with "the FULL power of your fully operational GMing capabilities"?

It's the RPGSite, I don't think that will happen any time soon.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;939388But that's how the 'Quest' works, whether or not he's telling a story, a human (and I use the term loosely to represent NPC's that will likely hinder the players in some fashion, also likely to be combative) will be a 'gate' that the players will need to pass.

You're assuming that there is a 'Quest' in the first place.  And not just a quest, but an Important-Enough-To-Be-Capitalized, Big-Q Quest.  If the PCs aren't being shoehorned into a quest, much less The Quest, then it doesn't matter how The Quest works.

And then you go on to assume that there's a 'gate' which the PCs need to pass.  There can just as well be multiple routes to whatever destination the PCs want to reach, potentially allowing them to get there without climbing the Hierarchy of Evil to ultimately face The Boss.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;939388The whole Boss thing is a construct that existed LONG before video games.  And will continue as long as we mouth breathers exist.

Agreed, it has been around forever in stories, and probably always will.

The thing is, a story takes a single path.  There may be several alternate paths it could have taken, but they're not a part of whatever story is told.  In an RPG, however, all of those paths are (or at least can be) open, allowing the players to choose whichever path they want to follow, including those which do not inevitably lead to The Boss.

Quote from: nDervish;939406And then you go on to assume that there's a 'gate' which the PCs need to pass.  There can just as well be multiple routes to whatever destination the PCs want to reach, potentially allowing them to get there without climbing the Hierarchy of Evil to ultimately face The Boss.

I think that this is just one type of scenario, there are many other types which don't include meeting a big boss.

Quote from: nDervish;939406Agreed, it has been around forever in stories, and probably always will.

The thing is, a story takes a single path.  There may be several alternate paths it could have taken, but they're not a part of whatever story is told.  In an RPG, however, all of those paths are (or at least can be) open, allowing the players to choose whichever path they want to follow, including those which do not inevitably lead to The Boss.

Sure, in such a scenario, the PCs could well take other paths that don't include the Big Boss and that makes it a different scenario. However, sometimes they just need a confrontation.

A gang of criminals, led by a mastermind intent on ruling the area, won't stop until their leader is killed/arrested/stopped. The PCs will keep on running into the criminals until they stop the leader.

A cult intent on opening a doorway into Hell and freeing their demonic lord won't stop until their high priest is stopped. This is an excellent setup for a confrontation between PCs and High Priest trying to summon his Master. If the PCs don't want to get involved, then either carry on dropping hints, putting the cult against the PCs or let the High Priest summon the demon and let the PCs deal with the aftermath.

Quote from: trechriron;939095I don't understand how, after reading the scenario I posited, that everyone is inferring so much background. Also, why are you all jumping to the worse Evil DM scenario?

What if several clues discovered during previous adventures pointed to the possibility of this scepter being both a source of power and a way to bypass the BigBadEvilGuy's defenses? Now, why does this mean this is the ONLY way to bypass his defenses? Why assume that this DM in the scenario is railroading his players?

You know what's even more disconcerting about this thought exercise?

The setup placed YOU as the GM. YOU are GMing the scenario. I made no mention of how you got there, or the setup, or anything. In media res you find yourself at this moment, and then I ask "What do you do?".

This leads me to believe that the bulk of people admonishing this terrible GM are actually admonishing themselves! It's also an interesting dive into the psychology of people. Even with all the power, all the imagination, all the ability to frame your response with you being in control - you still pissed all over the GM (yourselves). Weird.

Maybe, understanding the purpose of [Think Fast] - some of you want to stop pissing on yourselves and answer the question with "the FULL power of your fully operational GMing capabilities"?

Joking about genre preference aside, my stumbling block with the suggested scenario is that if I'd been running the game until this point the PC's sudden face heel turn most likely wouldn't have been a total swerve ball barring some OOC failure or massive communication break down which would usaually prompt an OOC solution like pausing the game and talking to the group. Otherwise, I would have something in mind if Cersei Von Maleficent suddenly decided to show her true colors. There would have been some clues to it and build up in game at least.

Quote from: trechriron;938576Let's set the scene: You're GMing a relaxing regular weekly game, everything is swell, people are having fun. The characters finally corner the Lt. BadGuyMiniBigBad in some gods-forsaken corner of the dungeon. The epic battle ensues with melee strikes, kung-fu shenanigans and flying spells. All the clues point to one solution - the heroes MUST toss the scepter into the fires in the deep chasm or BIGBAD will be too powerful to defeat. It is also known in some circles that "he who holds the scepter serves the dark one and channels his powers". Of course. The PCs are convinced this is the source of power for Lt. SadFaceSoggyPants so they can eliminate one Lt. AND have a chance of defeating THE DARK ONE. One of the PCs inches closer to the dais...

... and then picks up the scepter and pledges allegiance to the dark one!

What do you do?

Updated details for the discerning;

1. Lt. MiniBadGuy IS using the scepter - that's where he gets his power. The nebulous connection between the scepter and the BIGBAD GUY is yet to be defined. You made it up as they entered the room. You thought it would be cool to have this Lt. to have some physical connection to his boss.
2. You didn't necessarily set the scenario up this way. Maybe you just improved various reactions and this where you all ended up?
3. The player doesn't normally do things like this, but they did mention that they have an evil heart in their background.

Isay:"Brother Bethel, it's your turn, watcha doin...."

Quote from: Nexus;939443. . . Cersei Von Maleficent . . .

Love it. :cool:


And no, I don't think it's necessary to foreshadow at all. Pure impulse, or the reveal of a dark, dark secret, or whatever-the-fuck-ever, doesn't matter all that much to me. The 'why' is far less important to me than what happens next.

Why did they call the now-evil player's wand a "scepter?"

Cuz everybody's lawful good.... 'cept her!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0neB1b29l8

I dont think its bad DMing at all.

As said. As a DM Id have the villain try to wrestle back the scepter the second their initiative came up. And before or after that I see what the remaining players do depending on their initiative counts.

And as a player the second my initiative comes up someones going to be really sorry. (hopefully not me or my character...)

Quote from: trechriron;938576Let's set the scene: You're GMing a relaxing regular weekly game, everything is swell, people are having fun. The characters finally corner the Lt. BadGuyMiniBigBad in some gods-forsaken corner of the dungeon. The epic battle ensues with melee strikes, kung-fu shenanigans and flying spells. All the clues point to one solution - the heroes MUST toss the scepter into the fires in the deep chasm or BIGBAD will be too powerful to defeat. It is also known in some circles that "he who holds the scepter serves the dark one and channels his powers". Of course. The PCs are convinced this is the source of power for Lt. SadFaceSoggyPants so they can eliminate one Lt. AND have a chance of defeating THE DARK ONE. One of the PCs inches closer to the dais...

... and then picks up the scepter and pledges allegiance to the dark one!

What do you do?

Updated details for the discerning;

1. Lt. MiniBadGuy IS using the scepter - that's where he gets his power. The nebulous connection between the scepter and the BIGBAD GUY is yet to be defined. You made it up as they entered the room. You thought it would be cool to have this Lt. to have some physical connection to his boss.
2. You didn't necessarily set the scenario up this way. Maybe you just improved various reactions and this where you all ended up?
3. The player doesn't normally do things like this, but they did mention that they have an evil heart in their background.

What do you do? You fucking run with it!  That's how it works in RPGs.

You need to have determined whether the scepter actually matters or not. If it doesn't, then obviously nothing happens and then the PC who just swore allegiance to the Dark One has a lot of explaining to do.
If it does, you go with it and see what happens.