My plan:
(http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/n552/Junkyinthethrunky/7673647aff60a458fd6c176ec0998b82_zpsul13fbcf.jpg)
Nice. What would you say is your strategy if you were to articulate it?
Quote from: Arminius;834352Nice. What would you say is your strategy if you were to articulate it?
Assume, since the problem is near universal, that the usual methods are garbage, rather than assume the players are all lazy assholes. Proceed by finding another way.
My way is to do discrete one page datamaps like this. If I disire more detail, I just tighten the scale- Datamaps like this can be nested within one another like russian dolls.
Quote from: Aos;834356Assume, since the problem is near universal, that the usual methods are garbage, rather than assume the players are all lazy assholes. Proceed by finding another way.
My way is to do discrete one page datamaps like this. If I disire more detail, I just tighten the scale- Datamaps like this can be nested within one another like russian dolls.
Teaching the players to find things did have the negative of having to update the Index often. However, as it is an online wiki, they have all gotten in that habit.
Quote from: Aos;834356Assume, since the problem is near universal, that the usual methods are garbage, rather than assume the players are all lazy assholes. Proceed by finding another way.
My way is to do discrete one page datamaps like this. If I disire more detail, I just tighten the scale- Datamaps like this can be nested within one another like russian dolls.
Based on your example, I would add that you're making the process of absorbing the data kind of fun. It doesn't require a linear read-through--it can be traversed based on interest. It's allusive not comprehensive, which piques the reader's curiosity and leaves them wanting more. In short you're slyly encouraging an active approach to discovering/exploring the setting.
What players are so jaded they aren't curious about a setting that has a fucking MURDER MOON in it?
MURDER MOON.
As a GM I hate reading setting text. So much mental overhead to keep, and I feel chained by it because there's an expectation that you will stay true to the setting.
Short bits and pieces is what I do, and how I relay it to the players.
Quote from: Arminius;834368Based on your example, I would add that you're making the process of absorbing the data kind of fun. It doesn't require a linear read-through--it can be traversed based on interest. It's allusive not comprehensive, which piques the reader's curiosity and leaves them wanting more. In short you're slyly encouraging an active approach to discovering/exploring the setting.
Yeah, exactly. This map is made to be left on the table and looked at during lulls or whatever. Also, I try to distill the data presented down to 'take away points' because I think a lot is lost after a first reading anyway. Also no page flipping.
I love it. I've always believed setting detail should be boiled down to one page for player dissemination. The rest should be revealed during play in some meaningful way.
I'm working on another pdf, and I am going to use this sort of caption on the illustrations, but I hink that I want to make a screen and cover it with stuff like this too.
(http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/n552/Junkyinthethrunky/fd867179f1f4bc234e094df4a5cbb89a_zpspzpsh8mp.jpg)
As it's powered by a heart, i can understand why it'd be exploring a belly-button, but i presume it's a naval vessel? ;)
Quote from: One Horse Town;834425As it's powered by a heart, i can understand why it'd be exploring a belly-button, but i presume it's a naval vessel? ;)
Well, shit.
Quote from: Aos;834350My plan:
(http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/n552/Junkyinthethrunky/7673647aff60a458fd6c176ec0998b82_zpsul13fbcf.jpg)
I like it. I think symbolic maps like that are a great way to get the players interested. I'm always reminded of the map from White Plume Mountain.
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y219/Black_Majik/ADD/S2WhitePlumeMountain001.jpg)
Useless for hex based exploration. Great for the player to gaze at and wonder who Dragotha is, or what potions Thinizarrd offers.
On a side note, for my current 2nd ed campaign writeup, I'm trying not to front-load world info. I feel the problem is that infodumps are boring without context. And at the beginning of a campaign, there's little context or time to process setting details. IMO that stuff should be woven into adventures in bits and bites, and be put in as they are relevant to the scenario.
Ex. If there's a big assassin's guild, don't tell the players, show them by having the King assassinated.
"Show, don't tell" for RPG scenario design.
I only bother with hexes on a smaller scale.
Really like the phantasmagoric text. You're not dumping information; you're hinting at things left unsaid, and letting their imaginations run wild.
If I were to make one suggestion, I'd recommend building the text more into the map. Right now, it's just a bunch of paragraphs next to a picture, each kinda sorta nearish the the thing it describes. Arrows, call out balloons, text spilling into or off the map, alternate black and white boxes, that kind of thing.
Acid Lake: Put a comma after "live".
Freak City: Is "Ragling" correct?
Outpost 15: Do they know what outposts are? Because you didn't describe it, at all.
Weird Woods: m-dash after the first "dreams"
The Wurm: Umlaut, or no?
Outpost 17: Another m-dash.
Skarn: "Skarn, the Jewel"
Empire Roads: Add "and" in front of "keep".
Quote from: Pat;834466Really like the phantasmagoric text. You're not dumping information; you're hinting at things left unsaid, and letting their imaginations run wild.
If I were to make one suggestion, I'd recommend building the text more into the map. Right now, it's just a bunch of paragraphs next to a picture, each kinda sorta nearish the the thing it describes. Arrows, call out balloons, text spilling into or off the map, alternate black and white boxes, that kind of thing.
Acid Lake: Put a comma after "live".
Freak City: Is "Ragling" correct?
Outpost 15: Do they know what outposts are? Because you didn't describe it, at all.
Weird Woods: m-dash after the first "dreams"
The Wurm: Umlaut, or no?
Outpost 17: Another m-dash.
Skarn: "Skarn, the Jewel"
Empire Roads: Add "and" in front of "keep".
Haha, thanks, man. I'll fix it tomorrow.
Ragling is correct.
Outposts are another map.
I thought about using arrows, tbh, but it changes the feel.
(http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/n552/Junkyinthethrunky/33ca75070842de7b98c4bbe37bcf1490_zpsrnocftch.jpg)
You nailed it Aos. One page with a catchy visual is exactly the best way to present setting info to players. I absolutely envy your ability to draw.
Quote from: Aos;834429Well, shit.
Sorry! :o
I like it, and work like this should get bounced up to the top of the topic page. But outside of short and sweet text alluding to interests and mysteries, the process seems to elude me. Main problem, I doodle for shit. I sketch mindlessly and let images bubble up, but they look all abstract and incoherent in the end.
I don't know if you could break down so organic looking a product into its component process. Is there some creative format that guides your work? Or is it more fluid philosophically, like Bob Ross and "No Mistakes, Only Opportunities," and "Happy Little Trees."
I mean, take Torgo and the Sentinel (and the Murder Moon, who can forget the now immortal Murder Moon?). That stuff has to come from somewhere before you plop them on a map. I'd just end up with a blob of erased line remains instead and ruin my map.
Quote from: One Horse Town;834510Sorry! :o
Navel is the proper american spelling, terrorist, or so I choose to believe. FREEEEDOM!
Quote from: Opaopajr;834542I like it, and work like this should get bounced up to the top of the topic page. But outside of short and sweet text alluding to interests and mysteries, the process seems to elude me. Main problem, I doodle for shit. I sketch mindlessly and let images bubble up, but they look all abstract and incoherent in the end.
I don't know if you could break down so organic looking a product into its component process. Is there some creative format that guides your work? Or is it more fluid philosophically, like Bob Ross and "No Mistakes, Only Opportunities," and "Happy Little Trees."
I mean, take Torgo and the Sentinel (and the Murder Moon, who can forget the now immortal Murder Moon?). That stuff has to come from somewhere before you plop them on a map. I'd just end up with a blob of erased line remains instead and ruin my map.
I find that I am unable to explain myself, but I am pretty sure anyone can come up with equally good nonsense.
Great stuff but I'd probably cut it down to just the map with its wonderfully evocative keys, myself. As a player having just that map would make me foam at the mouth to play and I'd have a hard time choosing which cool thing to go find out about.
Some players will read a ten-page document, some will not.
Having one-page summaries are great, especially if they can be strewn on a gaming table. Having lots of one-page summaries turns into a ten page summary, which some players will not read.
Quote from: soltakss;834575Some players will read a ten-page document, some will not.
Having one-page summaries are great, especially if they can be strewn on a gaming table. Having lots of one-page summaries turns into a ten page summary, which some players will not read.
Really, that only happens if you lay them out all at once. How hard is it to think this sort of shit through? Jesus fuck.
A (very) little more detail on the setting and a class and some arts:
http://themetalearth.blogspot.com/2015/06/state-of-empire-and-leech-class.html
The OP seems like a good way to get across the vital info. Graphics help. Blocks of precious GM-written text is usually a fast way to get players to stop reading. I usually give a player a 3x5 of important info the character should be aware of and tell them anything else as needed in the course of play. Most info dumps by GMs are full of irrelevant stuff they just think is awesome because they authored it.
Quote from: Aos;834588Really, that only happens if you lay them out all at once.
My experience is that even if you put out one sheet, some players will read it straight away, some will read it when they need it and some players will never read it.
Your experiences may differ of course.
Good luck with getting players to read all that material, whether you put it out one sheet at a time, or all at once.
Quote from: Aos;834588How hard is it to think this sort of shit through? Jesus fuck.
I thought this through a long time ago and no longer produce material for the players to read. If they need to read something, I'll show them on a Tablet PC.
Quote from: Aos;834557I find that I am unable to explain myself, but I am pretty sure anyone can come up with equally good nonsense.
I don't know... your nonsense has that graphic panache. I think I can craft good nonsense with words. But with actual art supplies, I fear not so much.
(I see misterguignol has lain at your feet the responsibility of the title page for his new Arksylvania setting. I sympathize with his struggle of self-criticism.)
Quote from: soltakss;834709My experience is that even if you put out one sheet, some players will read it straight away, some will read it when they need it and some players will never read it.
Your experiences may differ of course.
Good luck with getting players to read all that material, whether you put it out one sheet at a time, or all at once.
I thought this through a long time ago and no longer produce material for the players to read. If they need to read something, I'll show them on a Tablet PC.
Haha. You are not making any sense, but you are patronizing and superior, at least.
Quote from: Aos;834757Haha. You are not making any sense, but you are patronizing and superior, at least.
Not at all, I was just sharing my experience with getting players to read text.
Hopefully your handouts will work for your players.
Quote from: Aos;834588Really, that only happens if you lay them out all at once. How hard is it to think this sort of shit through? Jesus fuck.
Quote from: Aos;834757Haha. You are not making any sense, but you are patronizing and superior, at least.
The one page is nicely executed. If I could draw, I might try something similar. But there really isn't any reason to be a dick to people who don't provide you with solely positive feedback.
Quote from: Bren;834785The one page is nicely executed. If I could draw, I might try something similar. But there really isn't any reason to be a dick to people who don't provide you with solely positive feedback.
2/10
Allow me to be contrarian. I love Aos' art. The text leaves me unmoved, however. Are the players onboard with "cool! necrotic heart powered submarines!!" Because I would prefer more traditional, pseudo-historical fare. A setting where all seems to be one-liners that flitted into mind from late-night lava-lamp gazing sessions doesn't grab me. I would doubt there is a lot of depth or consistency to it, just a lot of phantasmagorical throwaways.
This is basically a taste thing, I admit.
Quote from: The_Shadow;834983Allow me to be contrarian. I love Aos' art. The text leaves me unmoved, however. Are the players onboard with "cool! necrotic heart powered submarines!!" Because I would prefer more traditional, pseudo-historical fare. A setting where all seems to be one-liners that flitted into mind from late-night lava-lamp gazing sessions doesn't grab me. I would doubt there is a lot of depth or consistency to it, just a lot of phantasmagorical throwaways.
This is basically a taste thing, I admit.
That's fair. I assure you there is plenty of consistency, but it still comes down to taste. I'm not a fan of traditional historical based stuff, personally, but again that's just taste.
PS. Don't get the wrong idea, though, I am totally down with lava lamps.
Quote from: Aos;835014That's fair. I assure you there is plenty of consistency, but it still comes down to taste. I'm not a fan of traditional historical based stuff, personally, but again that's just taste.
Just so we're clear, if we sit down to play and you say "Hey guys, I scrapped all that necrotic-heart-submarine stuff. My setting is all about historic medieval fantasy now" I will probably flip the table.
Quote from: misterguignol;835016Just so we're clear, if we sit down to play and you say "Hey guys, I scrapped all that necrotic-heart-submarine stuff. My setting is all about historic medieval fantasy now" I will probably flip the table.
I guess we know who is playing the cleric.
Quote from: Aos;8348032/10
FWIW, I didn't see anything patronizing or superior in soltakss' post, either.
Quote from: Pat;835026FWIW, I didn't see anything patronizing or superior in soltakss' post, either.
I found the "good luck getting your players to read all that," comment to be patronizing. I thought the idea that presenting things on a screen or a tablet somehow made them more likely to be read nonsensical.
Bren's post was also nonsensical, as I was not responding to soltkass' feedback, because I don't really see that he provided any one way or the other, his comments were focused on a hypothetical 10 page setting document, not on the one page presentation which was the topic of the thread.
My mistake was responding to soltkass in the first place.
Dead horse is now sufficiently dead, in my opinion.
Torgo vs. The Murder Moon - I want the webcomic now!
Quote from: Aos;835040Bren's post was also nonsensical, as I was not responding to soltkass' feedback, because I don't really see that he provided any one way or the other, his comments were focused on a hypothetical 10 page setting document, not on the one page presentation which was the topic of the thread.
He was responding to idea that you would provide several 1-page documents. to players rather than only 1 page ever. An inference on his part, but one adequately supported by the fact that you had already posted two 1 page documents in this very thread.
I thought you understood the inference and soltakss comment on the difference between a single 1-page document and 10 pages of documents either as a single document or as ten separate 1-pagers. That was the obvious interpretation of what soltakss wrote and of what he was responding to. Your response that you wouldn't put all ten 1-pagers out at the same time actually supports the notion that you did understand what feedback he was providing and that you just didn't find any merit in his comment.
Quote from: CRKrueger;835065Torgo vs. The Murder Moon - I want the webcomic now!
I actually have a whole story with Torgo planned out. I am working out some kinks in my art right now, but plan on going back to the current comic in july. Maybe when that is done.
What I'd really like to see, Aos, is an entire retro-clone presented visually in comic book form. I'd Kickstart that.
(https://41.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4qrosyHAk1r1g40zo1_500.jpg)
Quote from: The_Shadow;835134What I'd really like to see, Aos, is an entire retro-clone presented visually in comic book form. I'd Kickstart that.
(https://41.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4qrosyHAk1r1g40zo1_500.jpg)
That would likely kill me. It is a really cool idea, though.
I have thought about foing some for a setting book though. The OP setting is actually part of a comic idea as well.
This is very cool stuff. Generally, though, I don't try to get players to read setting text, but prefer to reveal setting details to them through actual play.
The idea is more to give a sense of what is out there and build an appetite for exploration than to provide indepth setting knowledge. The bulk of setting detail would still be absorbed during play, of course.
Quote from: Aos;835825The idea is more to give a sense of what is out there and build an appetite for exploration than to provide indepth setting knowledge. The bulk of setting detail would still be absorbed during play, of course.
Yes, and in that sense what you're doing here is great.