Seems like others covered it.

I'm unfamiliar with WFRP. Don't own it. Never played it.

Quote from: apparition13;842574Are you familiar with WFRP, because this looks like you aren't. It means the problem some people (not me) had with some careers being clearly better than others has been addressed by evening out skills. It also means that if you have a certain career in mind you don't have to plan some complex route to get to it, especially given that some careers can't get to others.

Knowing nothing about the career system in WFRP I made the same interpretation as you did. To me that is the natural, straightforward, and obvious reading.

Quote from: Bren;842756Seems like others covered it.

I'm unfamiliar with WFRP. Don't own it. Never played it. Knowing nothing about the career system in WFRP I made the same interpretation as you did. To me that is the natural, straightforward, and obvious reading.

WFRP has four classes, the standard warrior, wizard, rogue and priest. From there your character randomly rolls their starting career, which is a specific occupation of the Old World, defined by a collection of skills a character can learn and some bonuses to attributes they can earn. There are natural career progressions you can follow, with one career leading to the next, like apprentice to wizard or seam to ships captain to buccaneer etc, or you can simply start at another basic career as dictated within the course of the game. It's not much like the classes of wotc D&D, rather closer in idea to 2e's kits

Quote from: TristramEvans;842782WFRP has four classes, the standard warrior, wizard, rogue and priest. From there your character randomly rolls their starting career, which is a specific occupation of the Old World, defined by a collection of skills a character can learn and some bonuses to attributes they can earn. There are natural career progressions you can follow, with one career leading to the next, like apprentice to wizard or seam to ships captain to buccaneer etc, or you can simply start at another basic career as dictated within the course of the game. It's not much like the classes of wotc D&D, rather closer in idea to 2e's kits

Almost never played wotc D&D (maybe twice a around 2000?) I never played 2e unless the game run by the guy who had his dungeon completely mapped out at 25mm scale so he could pull out every room or passage for actual play was 2e. It was some kind of AD&D. I just meant that it isn't hard to grasp that a game might have careers that were uneven in the benefits they provided.

Certainly Honor+Intrigue careers do that. but since the PCs get 4 careers that the player selects it doesn't much matter if Farmboy kind of sucks as a career compared to Alchemist. Besides who wants their dashing swashbuckler fussing around alembics and retorts and smelling like rotten eggs all the time? Far better to get a Trusted Companion and let them be the Alchemist.

Quote from: Bren;842797Almost never played wotc D&D (maybe twice a around 2000?) I never played 2e unless the game run by the guy who had his dungeon completely mapped out at 25mm scale so he could pull out every room or passage for actual play was 2e. It was some kind of AD&D. I just meant that it isn't hard to grasp that a game might have careers that were uneven in the benefits they provided.

Certainly Honor+Intrigue careers do that. but since the PCs get 4 careers that the player selects it doesn't much matter if Farmboy kind of sucks as a career compared to Alchemist. Besides who wants their dashing swashbuckler fussing around alembics and retorts and smelling like rotten eggs all the time? Far better to get a Trusted Companion and let them be the Alchemist.

The careers were uneven, but it was kinda the philosophy behind the game. It was more focused on "this is logically what the career would have" than trying to maintain some sort of balance. However, since career progression was meant to line up with what was actually happening in the game, instead of following a level/bonus structure, and most of the advance careers required in-game activities dependant on the GM, like finding a teacher or master to apprentice to, I never thought there was really a problem with it, as long as the Gm applied a bit of common sense. There also was the option in the game like what you've described with Honor+Intrigue, of creating characters with multiple careers, which was quite common in the games I played in.

However, there was something awesome about starting the game with a group consisting of a street charlatan, a bawd, a scribe, and a ratcatcher (with a small but vicious dog). WFRP wasnt a game about playing "big damn heroes", though. It was more like Discworld meets Gilliam's Jabberwocky. It had nothing to do with dungeon-exploring adventurers, more like a Renaissance Call of Cthulhu.

I can see the appeal of playing a ratcatcher in a game where being a mage is powerful and that sort of power literally corrupts you.

Quote from: TristramEvans;842782WFRP has four classes, the standard warrior, wizard, rogue and priest.

I'm going from memory, but I think those were more like: Ranger, Academic, Warrior, Rogue.

The academic category holds both initiate and wizard's apprentice, but also many others such as scribe or seer.

This is WFRP1 we're speaking of. WFRP2 did away with those and used a fully random table instead. Or rather, roll twice and choose. Many GMs, including myself allowed to pick a career instead of determining it randomly.

I have no idea what WFRP3 did as I didn't buy any of its ridiculously overpriced products. I have not followed Zweihänder either, as I don't like some of the design choices that have been made. And like GreyICE, I don't like the presentation language used. Phrases like "world-agnostic" and "we divorced system from setting" rub me the wrong way. I used to give snippets of feedback here and there, but found it frustrating. I'm glad that peasants are not mechanically equivalent to ninjas anymore, so that's a plus, I guess.

Quote from: Moracai;842824I'm going from memory, but I think those were more like: Ranger, Academic, Warrior, Rogue.

I believe you are correct. Its been a while for me.

Quote from: TristramEvans;842782WFRP has four classes, the standard warrior, wizard, rogue and priest.

Actually, it has multiple careers, from what I remember.

Quote from: AsenRG;842839Actually, it has multiple careers, from what I remember.

In WFRP 1st edition there were these career classes where you had to qualify for. WS 35+ for warriors, BS 35+ for rangers and so forth. Or something similar. After you determined your career class, you rolled for the specific starting career from the relevant table.

Quote from: Moracai;842841In WFRP 1st edition there were these career classes where you had to qualify for. WS 35+ for warriors, BS 35+ for rangers and so forth. Or something similar. After you determined your career class, you rolled for the specific starting career from the relevant table.

I was just joking, really. The post just means that for me, WFRP2 is the best Warhammer edition. And it doesn't have classes.

Quote from: AsenRG;842847The post just means that for me, WFRP2 is the best Warhammer edition.

Rage! RAGE! Blasphemy! (Just kidding as well)
But the original had an inexplicable and wacky soulshard that WFRP2 lacked.
I've not followed the later developments of Zweihänder. I did in the beginning, and it looked pretty cool. Will definitively check it out.

Quote from: Moracai;842824WFRP2 did away with those and used a fully random table instead.

The Career Compendium had a variety of alternate tables for generating career, including those for basically determining by 1st edition class.

Quote from: Moracai;842824I have no idea what WFRP3 did

You shuffled the Career cards, picked three, decided to stick or twist, then stabbed yourself in the face repeatedly... or something like that.

Hi jadrax!

Quote from: jadrax;842861The Career Compendium had a variety of alternate tables for generating career, including those for basically determining by 1st edition class.

I didn't even remember that as I didn't use that splatbook. Fanmade supplements gave even more similar options.

Quote from: jadrax;842861You shuffled the Career cards, picked three, decided to stick or twist, then stabbed yourself in the face repeatedly... or something like that.

From what I've gathered from internet discussions, that sounds about right

Quote from: AsenRG;842847I was just joking, really. The post just means that for me, WFRP2 is the best Warhammer edition. And it doesn't have classes.

Its a shame 2e tried to price-gauge its customers by releasing a core rulebook that had maybe 25% of the stuff the original game did, and then tried to do the whole supplement mill thing.

Quote from: baragei;842853Rage! RAGE! Blasphemy! (Just kidding as well)
But the original had an inexplicable and wacky soulshard that WFRP2 lacked.
I've not followed the later developments of Zweihänder. I did in the beginning, and it looked pretty cool. Will definitively check it out.

Maybe, I just don't remember it well.
Will also be checking on the Two-Hander RPG, though!

Quote from: TristramEvans;842871Its a shame 2e tried to price-gauge its customers by releasing a core rulebook that had maybe 25% of the stuff the original game did, and then tried to do the whole supplement mill thing.

I can't blame the system for such stunts, though.