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So the Embers of the Imperium RPG was recently released. An RPG set in the Twilight Imperium (Board game) universe.
I loves me some TI, but the Genesys system doesn't sound like something I'd like to play. The idea of drama dice, or whatever they're called.
Anyone got opinions on the system? Is it great and I'm being a moron? Is it awful and I should stay far away? Somewhere in-between?

I think the problem with Genesys is that it's a niche system which is more about prompting a group of improv roleplayers than generating simple yes-no answers. Most of the symbols are in pairs which cancel out, so it is less cumbersome than it seems upon reading, but it still is a cumbersome system. Usually the dice work well enough, but not all of the symbols in the core mechanic match to all situations equally well, so you occasionally have to spend a moment staring into the void when you are trying to figure out what rolling a bunch of Despair means because it isn't obvious for this specific circumstance.

(https://i.redd.it/ipynh9ltdy701.jpg)

All in all, I think Genesys is perhaps a touch more clunky than percentile. The difference is that the clunkiness of percentile is more front-loaded with arithmetic, and the results come out in a binary yes-no. Genesys is more back-loaded, with assembling the pool being an almost thoughtless process and all your effort getting spent on interpretation. It isn't that the system itself is excessively clunky, but that the clunk comes in at a weird spot in time which doesn't jive well with someone who is used to classic RPG or OSR gameplay.

TL;DR: It's a weird system which not everyone will enjoy. I don't. But I also don't quite revile it. I can't possibly GM it well. But I might play it with a GM who likes it, and I might buy a splatbook using it...with the understanding that I'm going to tear the system out of it because I don't like Genesys.

Let me speak as someone who generally thinks that funky and overbuilt dice pools are probably the future of the RPG hobby; Genesys is a "don't let this happen to you," RPG. The problem with Genesys is that it forces you to use its overbuilt features. You must use custom dice, you must roll all the symbols, you must interpret all the symbols. You have to do this. Every. Single. Time. What's worse, 90% of the time these features are not particularly relevant and just getting in the way of the game. That makes it sound like I think Genesys is a terrible game when that's not quite true; a lot of RPGs have this fault, sometimes even to the same extreme degree once you know what you're looking at. But Genesys is such an oddball system that the fault is glaringly obvious.

If you are going to make a massively overbuilt system, players need options to be able to turn the overbuilt features OFF when they don't want to mess with them.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 08, 2023, 05:47:32 AM
So the Embers of the Imperium RPG was recently released. An RPG set in the Twilight Imperium (Board game) universe.
I loves me some TI, but the Genesys system doesn't sound like something I'd like to play. The idea of drama dice, or whatever they're called.

While I'm not familiar with Genesys, my group did jump into FFG's previous Edge of the Empire pretty heavily back in the day. I definitely have an opinion on the dice system (and I will by using the Star Wars nomenclature in case this has changed for Genesys).

As you know, there are two axis of results: Success/Fail and Advantage/Threat which means there are four possible outcomes of any roll (Success+Advantage, Success+Threat, Fail+Advantage, & Fail+Threat). However, the issue is that all the dice have both sets of symbols on them so the four possible results are only equally likely if the number Positive and Negative dice are roughly equal. This situation of fairly common at low levels of play. But the advancement system in the game tends to specialize the particular characters over time, meaning they will be rolling much more and much better dice for any action that they are good at. The end result of this is that characters performing actions that they were built to excel at will almost always get Success+Advantage but performing all other actions they will almost always get Fail+Threat.

While uber-specialized characters succeeding all the time is bad, the other outcome is much worse. In a game like D&D, if a magic-user makes a melee attack the worst that can happen is he fails and does nothing. But with these dice the way they are, in the FFG SW game, a character performing a low odds attack will almost always generate an excessive amount of Threat points which will hurt the entire party. The result of this mechanic is that the players quickly become adverse to any sort of low odds roll. A devastating outcome if you are trying to run a high flying game like Star Wars.

As the problem comes from the dice themselves you can't just house rule this problem away although the designers have stated that when they run the game they will often ignore the Advantage/Threat result. The main way that GMs handle this problem is to adjust the difficulty of the roll according to the skill of the PC. Neither of these techniques are particularly satisfying.

I think you can greatly help the game if you change the small square dice to only having Success/Fail results on them. Thus allowing you to adjust the difficulty without also affecting the Advantage/Threat axis.

Genesys is for all intents and purposes a mechanically heavier PbtA game: a storygame designed not to accurately model a fictional reality but to consistently produce implausible results for the sake of "the narrative". It's pure shit just like PbtA, every Star Wars need is better served by WEG Star Wars.

Quote from: Vestragor on May 08, 2023, 10:17:40 AM
Genesys is for all intents and purposes a mechanically heavier PbtA game: a storygame designed not to accurately model a fictional reality but to consistently produce implausible results for the sake of "the narrative". It's pure shit just like PbtA, every Star Wars need is better served by WEG Star Wars.

Because as we all know, the Star Wars source material is completely devoid of implausible results for the sake of "the narrative".

The only relationship Genesys bears with PbtA is that the possibility exists for a "you succeed but" or a "you fail but" result.  In PbtA, the half-failed result is the most likely outcome of any roll regardless of whether it's done at 0, +1, or +2.  In Genesys, it happens for a reason.  Do you have a bunch of black dice?  Well it's because you were tapdancing on an oil slick at midnight.  Have a bunch of blue dice?  Your party was assisting you, you have good tools.  It's not arbitrary.  Of course there's always rolls where the dice screw you, but the presence or absence of the good or bad dice is entirely due to the situation and is controllable by the players' choices.

hedgehobbit's experiences are more in alignment with my own from doing Star Wars, though I'll note that the game doesn't scale as it's not level-based.  So unlike say Pathfinder, the beginner party isn't going up against DC 15 stuff and the advanced party isn't going up against DC 30 stuff.  If a character is an okay lockpicker, they don't become a shitty lockpicker later in the campaign because the world magically became more difficult.  The scaling of the game comes through different tiers of enemies, minions, rivals, and nemeses.  If your wizard is running up to try to punch Darth Vader or the barbarian is trying to out-smooth Lando Calrissian, yes, that is a bad idea and tears will flow, but I feel that's sort of how it should be.  If you're up against a master in their field, you shouldn't expect to come out well if the extent of your expertise is having watched a YouTube video on the topic.  If someone doesn't have something they can directly do against a powerful opponent in an encounter, at the very least they can act to assist party members who are more in their element and give them extra boost dice.

GM paralysis over coming up with how to deal with complications or bonuses is a learning curve for the system, though for many skills there are cheat sheets of suggested ways to handle threat or advantage results, and in any case there's a default "threats cause strain, advantages heal strain" if you're at a total loss to come up with a narrative result.

Also, just a side-tip, if you have players who can't handle counting numbers of things on dice, they do have a dice app on phones that will roll and auto-interpret the results for you.  VTTs of course also automatically interpret the whole success/failure advantage/threat canceling.

Quote from: rgalex on May 08, 2023, 11:26:38 AM

Quote from: Vestragor on May 08, 2023, 10:17:40 AM
Genesys is for all intents and purposes a mechanically heavier PbtA game: a storygame designed not to accurately model a fictional reality but to consistently produce implausible results for the sake of "the narrative". It's pure shit just like PbtA, every Star Wars need is better served by WEG Star Wars.

Because as we all know, the Star Wars source material is completely devoid of implausible results for the sake of "the narrative".

Adding random events, results and mishaps which have no plausible exaplanation in the simulated world is not the same thing as having a green goblin as tall as a piss bucket that can mow down soldiers by the dozens simply because is a Jedi master.
The problem with Genesys is the same one that plagues PbtA: every roll acts as a random events tables of some sort, even when there's zero in-game justification for it to be so.

Quote from: Vestragor on May 08, 2023, 11:45:57 AM

Quote from: rgalex on May 08, 2023, 11:26:38 AM

Quote from: Vestragor on May 08, 2023, 10:17:40 AM
Genesys is for all intents and purposes a mechanically heavier PbtA game: a storygame designed not to accurately model a fictional reality but to consistently produce implausible results for the sake of "the narrative". It's pure shit just like PbtA, every Star Wars need is better served by WEG Star Wars.

Because as we all know, the Star Wars source material is completely devoid of implausible results for the sake of "the narrative".

Adding random events, results and mishaps which have no plausible exaplanation in the simulated world is not the same thing as having a green goblin as tall as a piss bucket that can mow down soldiers by the dozens simply because is a Jedi master.
The problem with Genesys is the same one that plagues PbtA: every roll acts as a random events tables of some sort, even when there's zero in-game justification for it to be so.

That is not at all my experience.  I've ran 2 campaigns of Star Wars and played Genesys and own most of the material.  I actually really enjoy the system.

Quote from: Vestragor on May 08, 2023, 11:45:57 AM
Adding random events, results and mishaps which have no plausible exaplanation in the simulated world is not the same thing as having a green goblin as tall as a piss bucket that can mow down soldiers by the dozens simply because is a Jedi master.
The problem with Genesys is the same one that plagues PbtA: every roll acts as a random events tables of some sort, even when there's zero in-game justification for it to be so.

That seems more like GM error to me.  It should be obvious that not every action invokes weird random stuff to just start happening.  If someone's doing something straightforward and simple, they shouldn't be rolling in the first place, and if someone's doing something straightforward but challenging enough to call for a roll, there are dead-simple, not-weird results that a GM can call, "It's taking longer than you thought."  "It's taxing you, take strain."  "You aced it, recover strain." 

Now if you the GM know that there's a bunch of security goons around a corner and somebody gets a pile of threat while trying to open a lock, it's an obvious call at that point, "You raised a ruckus, you hear boots stomping down the hallway and see the beam of a flashlight around the corner."  But you don't have to fabricate the goons just because threat was rolled.  You don't have to do anything.  A party rolled some threat while trying to finagle a console in a Star Wars game I was running, so I had a red light start blinking on it.  That was it.  But they were paranoid as fuck about it from that point onward.  If I am running a game, and I have an interesting idea rattling around in my head, I'll keep an eye out for threats or advantages to provide an opportunity to bring it in.  Otherwise I don't let it bog me down.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 08, 2023, 05:47:32 AM
So the Embers of the Imperium RPG was recently released. An RPG set in the Twilight Imperium (Board game) universe.
I loves me some TI, but the Genesys system doesn't sound like something I'd like to play. The idea of drama dice, or whatever they're called.
Anyone got opinions on the system? Is it great and I'm being a moron? Is it awful and I should stay far away? Somewhere in-between?

  I have the system book and the Fantasy setting book....I want to like it a lot.  But it seems to just not be my flavor, I think I would have to try it as a player with a good gm first to see if it is for me.  I know I judged Savage worlds without playing it for years and it was a lot better on the table than on the page.  Could be the same with genesys....but for the past couple years it has rested on the book shelf.

Ah, another 'you must buy multiple sets of our proprietary dice just to be able to play' system. Apart from the added expense, I always wonder how good a system is, that was primarily built to sell dice.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of the concept of the custom dice, if nothing else because you're up the creek for finding any in 10-15 years down the road.  In this instance at least their dice app is free, so there is a non-paying route for play, but I prefer physical dice when not on a VTT.

Quote from: Valatar on May 09, 2023, 02:02:25 AMIn this instance at least their dice app is free, so there is a non-paying route for play, but I prefer physical dice when not on a VTT.

The App won't last more than a few years either.

Not a fan of the system used in Edge of the Empire (to be as kind as possible) specifically because of all those damn dice. It feels way too meta and breaks immersion quite a bit. There's a big difference between rolling a d20 (or 5d6 if you're playing WEG SW for instance) and seeing if you hit a target number and trying to figure out what multiple symbols mean on multiple dice. Like two steps too many.

I think it'd make a decent mechanic for a board game or something which makes sense considering the publisher. As an RPG system, no thanks. There is an app to speed up play, but if you NEED an app to play an RPG, you're already moved past an RPG into something else.

Quote from: Brad on May 09, 2023, 09:27:31 AM
I think it'd make a decent mechanic for a board game or something which makes sense considering the publisher. As an RPG system, no thanks. There is an app to speed up play, but if you NEED an app to play an RPG, you're already moved past an RPG into something else.

Something very similar already does:  "Roll for the Galaxy".  Not to be confused with the more deterministic parent game, "Race for the Galaxy".  Not that Roll for the Galaxy is perfect.  It's a bit clunky in places.  But the dice are generally a big plus, not part of the problem. 

Roll for the Galaxy is helped by the fact that once you get enough dice, most rolls have a few dice that simply aren't useful for anything, get stuck into their default spots just in case, and thus don't require a lot of thought until/unless they are invoked by the actions of someone else. 

Quote from: oggsmash on May 08, 2023, 05:54:44 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 08, 2023, 05:47:32 AM
So the Embers of the Imperium RPG was recently released. An RPG set in the Twilight Imperium (Board game) universe.
I loves me some TI, but the Genesys system doesn't sound like something I'd like to play. The idea of drama dice, or whatever they're called.
Anyone got opinions on the system? Is it great and I'm being a moron? Is it awful and I should stay far away? Somewhere in-between?

  I have the system book and the Fantasy setting book....I want to like it a lot.  But it seems to just not be my flavor, I think I would have to try it as a player with a good gm first to see if it is for me.  I know I judged Savage worlds without playing it for years and it was a lot better on the table than on the page.  Could be the same with genesys....but for the past couple years it has rested on the book shelf.

I have a lot of experience with the system, and I can tell you that it plays much better at the table than it reads.  Players also pick up the dice system surprisingly very quickly in all my experiences with it.

Quote from: Grognard GM on May 09, 2023, 02:30:07 AM

Quote from: Valatar on May 09, 2023, 02:02:25 AMIn this instance at least their dice app is free, so there is a non-paying route for play, but I prefer physical dice when not on a VTT.

The App won't last more than a few years either.

The app has been out the better part of a decade or more already.  It started with the FFG Star Wars games.

Quote from: Valatar on May 09, 2023, 02:02:25 AM
Yeah, I'm not a fan of the concept of the custom dice, if nothing else because you're up the creek for finding any in 10-15 years down the road.  In this instance at least their dice app is free, so there is a non-paying route for play, but I prefer physical dice when not on a VTT.

It's the future. We have replicator technology.
Genesys Dice (https://cults3d.com/en/3d-model/game/genesys-dice-math-rocks-for-an-underrated-rpg-found-in-the-first-book-of-the-bible)

Quote from: Brad on May 09, 2023, 09:27:31 AM
Not a fan of the system used in Edge of the Empire (to be as kind as possible) specifically because of all those damn dice. It feels way too meta and breaks immersion quite a bit. There's a big difference between rolling a d20 (or 5d6 if you're playing WEG SW for instance) and seeing if you hit a target number and trying to figure out what multiple symbols mean on multiple dice. Like two steps too many.

I think it'd make a decent mechanic for a board game or something which makes sense considering the publisher. As an RPG system, no thanks. There is an app to speed up play, but if you NEED an app to play an RPG, you're already moved past an RPG into something else.

I mostly agree.  It is not nearly as immediately intuitive as other systems.  In play though, most players I've seen pick it up pretty quickly. 

It's also nice for those math-challenged types. I've got one guy in my group that just can't do basic addition or subtraction without a calculator or his fingers.  I'm talking D&D 5e attack rolls or HP tracking type math.  With the Genesys dice though, he can immediately count the couple die faces of symbols.

I also like the range of results the dice give over the binary pass/fail.  I've mostly played the L5R version, which uses a slightly modified system from the SW or generic Genesys.  The way the dice help ramp up the social tension in game was a nice feature and made for some interesting meta choices (yeah, yeah, hang me for dirty immersion-breaking sins).

Quote from: Brad on May 09, 2023, 09:27:31 AM
Not a fan of the system used in Edge of the Empire (to be as kind as possible) specifically because of all those damn dice. It feels way too meta and breaks immersion quite a bit. There's a big difference between rolling a d20 (or 5d6 if you're playing WEG SW for instance) and seeing if you hit a target number and trying to figure out what multiple symbols mean on multiple dice. Like two steps too many.

I prefer it over d20 stuff specifically because I dislike a simple pass/fail resolution mechanic for skill tests.  There's no room for nuance in a d20 and a DC, and the skill system for d20 was still basically the same bolt-on that it was in 2E AD&D.

I miss when FFG was still just a comic book distributor. I knew them way back when Twilight Imperium was still just in the works. Still have several of the comics even.

Well, saturday was our monthly TI game, and afterwards I picked up the RPG.
I doubt I'll get around to playing it anytime soon, I mostly got it for the lore and art. But the punchline is, the book is a sourcebook, and does not include even a bare-bones version of the Genesys core system. At 50 bucks.

I just found that kinda wonky.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 08, 2023, 05:47:32 AM.
Anyone got opinions on the system? Is it great and I'm being a moron? Is it awful and I should stay far away? Somewhere in-between?

I like/dislike it. Having played FFG Starwars when you run the game as is (aka using the challenge difficulties the game suggests) it kinda sucks. But as soon as the GM pushed the difficulty down by 1-2 dice we had far more fun. The reason for this was pretty simple, it was to common to have 3-4 negative dice plus 2+ added onto the situation for average rolls. Which frequently took away your successes.When the GM changed the difficulty we saw success a bit more frequently and more importantly where able to use advantages far more often.

Now, when we then played again following the exact rules and where rping as scrappy heroes the base rules felt better as we succeed about half the time and the other half of the time was risk management which I'm a fan of. So I feel it's all about framing the game.

One thing which was a bit tedious was figuring out everything you could do with Advantages and Disadvantage and how alot of it was future proofing or future hindrances. So in that regard I'd say it was clunky.

But after we made some cheat sheets and we understood how the rules worked, we found the game overall fun. I think the core concept is pretty neat and I liked how the game tried to make use of Advantages as much as it could, like linking them to weapon qualities and special actions. But overall, I felt the game is clunky.

Still. I had fun with it. It's certainly not a great game. But it can be a fun game if you like rolling click clacks and then reading the runes. It however sucks that almost everyone prefers using the app because it's just more practical.   

Considering the old 2e D&D settings, my comment about Embers not including the core rules was probably unfair. Anyway...

After having read the book, I'm fairly happy with the setting work and scenario concepts. The characters are assumed to be members of the Keleres (A faction that wants everyone to play nice) who go around trying to maintain some semblance of civilized behavior while disparate factions vie for power. The thing I like is the concept of having personal agendas. So a Druaa (telepathic snake people aliens) character may work for the Keleres, but still wants the Naluu (Their racial faction) to get galactic power and influence. Kelres attitudes range from apathetic, to self-interested, to enthusiastic. It's a setup that fits the board game very well, IMO.
The extremely antagonistic factions are reserved to be bad guys. So you can't play a Nekro computer virus creature, or a Vul'Raith cultist. But you can play a Sardakk'Norr aggressive bug person.
Many call outs to the board game components are sprinkled into the RPG setting. All the ship types have stats, except the War Sun, which is probably for the best. War Suns are the equivalent to small Death Stars and rare enough to be a special event and not just any ship floating around.

If I had to DM it right now, I'd probably use Starfinder or Stars Without Number and wing conversions at the table. I may get the Genesys system eventually, but it's not a high priority on my gaming list right now.

I enjoy Genesys a lot.  I like dice pools.  I find doing math in regular D20 games to be immersion breaking for me.  You roll and then have add and subtract a bunch of things to see what happens.  With Genesys you just count the successes. 

I love the narrative options of the advantage/disadvantage mechanic.  I think the people that dislike it tend to be the rules lawyer type that want the system to define every outcome.  I like the creative aspect of the story telling that comes with it.

Quote from: ReadyPlayerOne on June 15, 2024, 03:57:17 AMI enjoy Genesys a lot.  I like dice pools.  I find doing math in regular D20 games to be immersion breaking for me.  You roll and then have add and subtract a bunch of things to see what happens.  With Genesys you just count the successes. 

I love the narrative options of the advantage/disadvantage mechanic.  I think the people that dislike it tend to be the rules lawyer type that want the system to define every outcome.  I like the creative aspect of the story telling that comes with it.

I think Genesys really benefits from knowing and using the soft rule of "if the outcome of a challenge isn't dramatically significant, don't roll for it" far more than classic rule systems. For roll-appropriate challenges, it's usually very easy and fluid to spend Advantage/Threat/Trimph/Despair. Conversely, if you are having trouble imagining what to do with those results, it was likely a situation that didn't call for a roll.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 14, 2023, 06:10:26 AMWell, saturday was our monthly TI game, and afterwards I picked up the RPG.
I doubt I'll get around to playing it anytime soon, I mostly got it for the lore and art. But the punchline is, the book is a sourcebook, and does not include even a bare-bones version of the Genesys core system. At 50 bucks.

I just found that kinda wonky.

That is fairly standard for campaign books. I assume it stats out stuff at least?

Quote from: Omega on June 15, 2024, 07:45:14 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 14, 2023, 06:10:26 AMWell, saturday was our monthly TI game, and afterwards I picked up the RPG.
I doubt I'll get around to playing it anytime soon, I mostly got it for the lore and art. But the punchline is, the book is a sourcebook, and does not include even a bare-bones version of the Genesys core system. At 50 bucks.

I just found that kinda wonky.

That is fairly standard for campaign books. I assume it stats out stuff at least?

Yes, it does have stats for the included species of aliens, several setting-specific talents, lots of gear, and vehicles from personal transports (bikes, etc.) up to dreadnoughts and carriers. Most starships are given a baseline and then modifiers for 3-4 species that signficantly diverge from that baseline. Very unique aliens (usually "Galactic Threats") get listings for their unique vessel types.

I have run and played a few different flavors of it.  It works okay.  Interpreting the dice pools can be a bit of a pain.  In a lot of cases, it's unneeded complexity.  I just need to know whether the character succeeds or not.  There are a lot of options for how to spend advantage that are spread out all over the place which can give some players analysis paralysis.  The more material you are using, the worse this issue gets. 

Quote from: Omega on June 15, 2024, 07:45:14 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 14, 2023, 06:10:26 AMWell, saturday was our monthly TI game, and afterwards I picked up the RPG.
I doubt I'll get around to playing it anytime soon, I mostly got it for the lore and art. But the punchline is, the book is a sourcebook, and does not include even a bare-bones version of the Genesys core system. At 50 bucks.

I just found that kinda wonky.

That is fairly standard for campaign books. I assume it stats out stuff at least?

Yep. It's got plenty of crunch to go with the lore.

I did eventually pick up a used Genesys rulebook and a dice pack. I've read over the rules a few times. I think if I had to run it, and honestly, I'd rather do that than spend time re-inventing the wheel for another system, I'd probably try to run it as a simple pass-fail system, and only use the advantage/threat/triumph/despiar where noted in the rules for skills and talents and gear.

How does combat play out in Genesys? Can players do cool shit? Hopefully it's more satisfying than 5e combat...

Quote from: Monero on June 17, 2024, 12:54:45 PMHow does combat play out in Genesys? Can players do cool shit? Hopefully it's more satisfying than 5e combat...

Yes, but...

The "but" being that it takes effort to suss out how the die mechanics truly work. If you're up for it and approach it with an open mind, it can be fun so long as everyone is ready to play it. If you have resistant players at the table that balk at the mechanics, you might need to uninvite them from the game, because it does take player buy-in (but, then, so do all games).

I have played and run a shit-ton of Edge of the Empire/Age of Rebellion. I've probably posted more on the system than anyone on this forum. I'll give a brief run-down (from memory)

1) I was intensely skeptical of this system for all the obvious reasons a) the Dice b) I love d6 Star Wars, so why do I need this?

Eventually I watched a bunch of videos from Runeslinger, and it convinced me that the system *isn't* as narrative bullshit as people pretend it to be (He's right).

So the contention is Genesys is PbtA of a different stripe/i.e. narrative bullshit. It is nothing like PbtA if the assertion is that there are degrees of success or that the PC's can potentially "change the narrative" of a scene.

PbtA has "narrative change mechanics" as part of its normal gameplay. Genesys does not. It's an OPTION. Everything about the system uses hard values which the GM interprets in terms of degree of success.

1) You're supposed to roll only when it matters.
2) You do Stat d8's + Skill in a dicepool. The *type* of dice you use is dependent on your skill rank (i.e. you upgrade your d8's to d12's for every Skill rank. Difficulty dice (d8's) are added to the pool. These are upgraded only in resisted checks, or if there are extenuating circumstances. These are *normal* die-pool mechanics. Failures cancel out successes. Any successes left over from the roll indicate success (and the degree of success).
3) Threat/Advantage - these are merely the things GM's and players can leverage for mechanical benefits. They do *not* cancel one another out. If a player has any Advantages they can a) Activate features on their gear/weapons, use them to help other members of their group, etc. Likewise if the player has Threat the *GM* can cause bad shit to happen - like your magazine is emptied on your attack, or reinforcements arrive, a stray shot hits a pipe and now fills the area with smoke, etc.
4) Booster/Setback dice - These are EASY. They're simply anything that enhances the situation environmentally the players or GM can think of that are relevant to the scene. A player might be trying to negotiate a slope, and a heavy wind kicks up, the GM might toss in a Setback die into the players Athletics check to negotiate the berm. Likewise the player might have survival gear which grants him a Booster die on all such checks. BOTH dice go into the pool.

Now you do have things like "Destiny Points" (not sure what they're called in Genesys) to represent the Force which *can* be used to do stupid narrative shit if the GM wants to, OR they can be used to give you a mechanical benefit (adds a d8 to your pool, or upgrade a d8 in the pool to a d12). THAT'S IT.

If the discussion is whether or not the Genesys system is Narrative Asshattery - it's not. But you can certainly make it that way in the same way you could do it to any system. Does it give you the option to do so? Sure. But it is entirely up to the GM. If the idea that it's Narrative Trash is important for labeling reasons - then there are a lot of other systems that also will fall into this category - which means any system with a Luck system (Savage Worlds, CP2020, Marvel Superheroes, DC Heroes, etc. etc.)

The PROBLEMS with the Genesys system which I've heard they updated poorly is with their "crafting" and "gear". It's garbage and greatly affected our games because we had "gear monkey" type PC's that had to struggle to make anything good.

There are other smaller issues, but it's very playable. I personally never understood the "I can't read the dice" argument, since it's just counting up symbols on the dice. Which is small addition. There is nothing particularly abstract about it - even if you don't like coming up with fun interesting things for Threat/Advantage, because you can literally convert Threat/Advantage directly into mechanical penalties/bonuses if you're not up to the task. It's trivial and completely non-narrativist.

I should add - I own *everything* from their Star Wars lines (Edge/Age/Force) - and they are extremely well produced. HOWEVER...

With the advent of SWADE, and its Companion series - I'll likely never run Star Wars using this system again. Genesys as a "universal system" is *nowhere* in the ballpark of ease of use compared to Savage Worlds. It's not even close. That said - you could run D&D style gaming well into the "sweet spot" of D&D play (up to 10th level or so) without much effort.

Would I recommend it? Honestly, no. Unless you're simply looking for a novel dice-pool game. But even then, I'd probably recommend d6.

Quote from: yosemitemike on June 16, 2024, 04:50:26 AMI have run and played a few different flavors of it.  It works okay.  Interpreting the dice pools can be a bit of a pain.  In a lot of cases, it's unneeded complexity.  I just need to know whether the character succeeds or not.  There are a lot of options for how to spend advantage that are spread out all over the place which can give some players analysis paralysis.  The more material you are using, the worse this issue gets. 

It kind of sounds like this issue could be tweaked by having different "levels" of dice resolution. Climbing a wall/bribing a guard and want a simple low resolution skill check? Ignore/downplay advantage/threat. Want to "zoom in" more on a particular skill roll(dramatic combat), then those pips can come more into play and focus.

Fate Core handled this well in that in that how you roll really comes down to how much "resolution" you want in that scene. A sniper shot might be a conflict(combat), simple check, or contested check depending on how much time/effort you want to spend on the PC shooting that NPC.

Quote from: tenbones on June 18, 2024, 10:12:09 AM3) Threat/Advantage - these are merely the things GM's and players can leverage for mechanical benefits. They do *not* cancel one another out.

This is incorrect. Threat/Advantage *do* cancel one another. Because of this, it is impossible for a single roll to result in both Threat and Advantage. However, there are the more rare (and more powerful) Despair/Triumph results that do *not* cancel one another. It is possible for a single roll to produce both Despiar and Triumph.

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 18, 2024, 11:21:28 AM

Quote from: tenbones on June 18, 2024, 10:12:09 AM3) Threat/Advantage - these are merely the things GM's and players can leverage for mechanical benefits. They do *not* cancel one another out.

This is incorrect. Threat/Advantage *do* cancel one another. Because of this, it is impossible for a single roll to result in both Threat and Advantage. However, there are the more rare (and more powerful) Despair/Triumph results that do *not* cancel one another. It is possible for a single roll to produce both Despiar and Triumph.

My bad. Like I said - from memory. Still doesn't mean the system is narrative trash.

Quote from: Dracones on June 18, 2024, 10:45:04 AMIt kind of sounds like this issue could be tweaked by having different "levels" of dice resolution. Climbing a wall/bribing a guard and want a simple low resolution skill check? Ignore/downplay advantage/threat. Want to "zoom in" more on a particular skill roll(dramatic combat), then those pips can come more into play and focus.

Depends on if it "matters". If it's a simple check, and there is no reason a PC with normal ability couldn't scale the wall, you might just handwave it. But what if you know there are guards in the area that the PC is unaware of? Or the PC has a wound or whatever, where the wall might be not so simple.

The cool thing about the system is that you can set the difficulty specific to the task at hand. Case in point - a normal difficulty is two-difficulty dice. But if you think its relevant, there might be mitigating factors like the PC has to time it due to a panning camera - so a Setback die. Or whatever. It's not that scaling the wall itself got harder, (if that were the case you'd raise the Difficulty die to 3) but the circumstances themselves cause potential problems. Hence the Setback die.

Likewise the player (or GM) can rationalize their own potential Booster dice for making the circumstances easier.

I don't distinguish how this is any different from other systems where you're factoring in bonuses/penalties into a die-roll. It's just a little more granular and allows for negotiation. /shrug.

Quote from: tenbones on June 18, 2024, 10:12:09 AMThere are other smaller issues, but it's very playable. I personally never understood the "I can't read the dice" argument, since it's just counting up symbols on the dice. Which is small addition. There is nothing particularly abstract about it - even if you don't like coming up with fun interesting things for Threat/Advantage, because you can literally convert Threat/Advantage directly into mechanical penalties/bonuses if you're not up to the task. It's trivial and completely non-narrativist.

Well, with "standard" dice, like WEG D6 or a D20 system you roll a number. Big number better than small number. Easy peasy.
In Genesys, there are six(?) symbols spread out among six different dice types. Here-

(https://www.gamescapesf.com/assets/webimages/gns01_dice_names.png)

Each dice type (color) has a different matching dice (good dice, bad dice) and each set of results has a different matching dice result (good result, bad result). That's a lot of categories of dice and results to consider, versus even the D6 system.

I'm glad you chimed in since you have run the system. It gives me hope that if I ever get a chance to run TI, I can run the system as pass/fail and not "interpret dice".

Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 18, 2024, 04:34:20 PMEach dice type (color) has a different matching dice (good dice, bad dice) and each set of results has a different matching dice result (good result, bad result). That's a lot of categories of dice and results to consider, versus even the D6 system.

It gives you two axes success--failure and advantage--threat. Results of triumph and despair can sprinkle in some extra good and bad. It's not complicated and can actually allow a lot of effects (equipment-based, environment-based, ability/talent-based to have possible impacts rather than guaranteed ones). It plays much better than it reads, so I'd suggest giving it a try for a few sessions.

As long as you can grock the symbols its not horrible. Its just needlessly complicated by it.

I suspect players familliar with the FATE system and its funky dice will grasp this slightly easier.

Quote from: Omega on June 19, 2024, 08:50:29 PMAs long as you can grock the symbols its not horrible. Its just needlessly complicated by it.

I suspect players familliar with the FATE system and its funky dice will grasp this slightly easier.

You say needlessly complicated, but how would you build a system that produces two axes of results with Yes/But and No/And weighted more heavily than Yes/And and No/But (because if you get a lot of successes, you probably don't have many Advantages, likewise the reverse and carry this over to not being likely to get a lot of both negative outcomes)?

If you say that you don't see the need for a system to generate such outcomes, then you don't appreciate the appeal of Genesys to its fans.

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 20, 2024, 02:24:21 AM

Quote from: Omega on June 19, 2024, 08:50:29 PMAs long as you can grock the symbols its not horrible. Its just needlessly complicated by it.

I suspect players familliar with the FATE system and its funky dice will grasp this slightly easier.

You say needlessly complicated, but how would you build a system that produces two axes of results with Yes/But and No/And weighted more heavily than Yes/And and No/But (because if you get a lot of successes, you probably don't have many Advantages, likewise the reverse and carry this over to not being likely to get a lot of both negative outcomes)?

If you say that you don't see the need for a system to generate such outcomes, then you don't appreciate the appeal of Genesys to its fans.

A home brew rule I use in my D&D game is two dice, a d20 and a d8.  The d20 is used in the normal fashion and the d8 is to adjudicate secondary events.  I don't always use the d8 but I always have my players call it out.

Here's a simple example on how I use the D8:  A rogue is picking a lock in an alley off a busy street.  His primary effort is to open the lock and that is decided by the d20 but whether a passer-by happens to catch him doing it is determined by the d8. Almost always, the meaning and consequences of the d8 roll are hidden from the players.  This way the Rogue won't find out he's been spotted right away but rather four hours later when confronted by the local sheriff when he's relaxing at the tavern and thinking he got away Scott free. 

Quote from: BadApple on June 20, 2024, 07:07:13 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 20, 2024, 02:24:21 AM

Quote from: Omega on June 19, 2024, 08:50:29 PMAs long as you can grock the symbols its not horrible. Its just needlessly complicated by it.

I suspect players familliar with the FATE system and its funky dice will grasp this slightly easier.

You say needlessly complicated, but how would you build a system that produces two axes of results with Yes/But and No/And weighted more heavily than Yes/And and No/But (because if you get a lot of successes, you probably don't have many Advantages, likewise the reverse and carry this over to not being likely to get a lot of both negative outcomes)?

If you say that you don't see the need for a system to generate such outcomes, then you don't appreciate the appeal of Genesys to its fans.

A home brew rule I use in my D&D game is two dice, a d20 and a d8.  The d20 is used in the normal fashion and the d8 is to adjudicate secondary events.  I don't always use the d8 but I always have my players call it out.

Here's a simple example on how I use the D8:  A rogue is picking a lock in an alley off a busy street.  His primary effort is to open the lock and that is decided by the d20 but whether a passer-by happens to catch him doing it is determined by the d8. Almost always, the meaning and consequences of the d8 roll are hidden from the players.  This way the Rogue won't find out he's been spotted right away but rather four hours later when confronted by the local sheriff when he's relaxing at the tavern and thinking he got away Scott free. 

Is that d8 outcome totally random, or can the PC's choices/gear/talents impact it in some way? Also, if the outcome is hidden, how will the player know how to impact it?

As someone who GMed Genesys for years, it really takes the right group of players with strong abstract thinking skills to work. It's also a bit restrictive for a GM, trying to satisfy the conditions imposed by the dice whether the situation really warrants it or not.

Quote from: SmallMountaineer on June 20, 2024, 04:35:17 PMAs someone who GMed Genesys for years, it really takes the right group of players with strong abstract thinking skills to work. It's also a bit restrictive for a GM, trying to satisfy the conditions imposed by the dice whether the situation really warrants it or not.

I agree. In the "restrictive on the GM" part, I again urge not to have the players roll unless you feel all of the various outcomes are both possible and interesting.

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 20, 2024, 02:24:21 AM

Quote from: Omega on June 19, 2024, 08:50:29 PMAs long as you can grock the symbols its not horrible. Its just needlessly complicated by it.

I suspect players familliar with the FATE system and its funky dice will grasp this slightly easier.

You say needlessly complicated, but how would you build a system that produces two axes of results with Yes/But and No/And weighted more heavily than Yes/And and No/But (because if you get a lot of successes, you probably don't have many Advantages, likewise the reverse and carry this over to not being likely to get a lot of both negative outcomes)?

If you say that you don't see the need for a system to generate such outcomes, then you don't appreciate the appeal of Genesys to its fans.

Percentile system or a variant on various DM Emulators that broaden things into a three-way axis of Yes, No and neutral combos. Or add weight like Mythic does. (Though Mythic can be way wayyyy more overcomplicated than Genesys.)

Quote from: Omega on June 19, 2024, 08:50:29 PMAs long as you can grock the symbols its not horrible. It's just needlessly complicated by it.

...

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 20, 2024, 02:24:21 AMYou say needlessly complicated, but how would you build a system that produces two axes of results with Yes/But and No/And weighted more heavily than Yes/And and No/But (because if you get a lot of successes, you probably don't have many Advantages, likewise the reverse and carry this over to not being likely to get a lot of both negative outcomes)?

If you say that you don't see the need for a system to generate such outcomes, then you don't appreciate the appeal of Genesys to its fans.

I side with Omega on this.

The combination of symbols and different dice types makes it needlessly fiddly for what it is trying to do. (Different levels of success.)

Several people have noted that the funky-die system is straight wonky: (I have the EoE rulebook.)
https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/37670/roleplaying-games/review-star-wars-force-and-destiny
https://illuminatinggames.wordpress.com/2014/09/19/star-wars-age-of-rebellion-a-deep-dive-on-dice-probabilities/

The FFG funky dice are a needless obstacle to learning the game, created by designers trying to be too clever by half...

In my opinion; you just don't need the funky dice to get more than a pass/fail result on a roll.

From my d6 starwars homebrew game:

Stat + Skill rated 1-5 each.
D6 die pools with a success on 5-6.
One of the dice is a red 'wild die' that explodes on a six, to re-roll for additional successes.

From this I can get five different "results":

Critical Failure/Fumble.
Failure.
Success, But...
Success.
Critical success.

1: 0 successes, and half of the dice are ones: You fail, and you suffer an additional setback that further hinders you in the situation.
2: 0 successes, and less than half of the dice are ones: You did not succeed at your task.
3: 1 Success - You succeed but with an additional complication, or obstacle thrown into the mix.
4: 2-4 Successes: You succeed at what you are doing.
5: 5 Successes, a 'Crit': You succeed at what you are doing, and you gain a bonus - either to your current situation, or a bonus die to your next roll as you pursue your goal.

Examples:
1: Han solo tries to hack the lock on the endor bunker. He fails and gets a setback. So not only does he fail, but additional blast doors close, making hacking the bunker doors harder.
2: Han solo tries to hack the lock on the endor bunker. He fails, wasting his turn when they should have just waited to let R2D2 take a crack at it to begin with...
3: Han solo hacks the lock on the endor bunker, and succeeds. But with only one success there is a complication: A small squad of stormtroopers rushes the door!
4: Han solo hacks the lock on the endor bunker, and succeeds. Standard success, and there are no stormtroopers rushing the door.
5: Han solo hacks the lock on the endor bunker, and Crits. Not only does the door open but he gets a bonus of some kind: +2d to his next action, an additional action, or his out-of-nowhere hacking moves inspire his party and they all get +1d to their next rolls.


And not a single funky-die needed in the process...

This can all be mapped to a d20 roll as well. It's a matter of establishing your parameters for each result.

It's just not that hard.

... as opposed to in Genesys

Any success symbols left over? Success. Extra Successes = Extra Damage/Results
Any Advantage = Spend on gear/skill abilities. Pass on to other team-mates
Any Threat = Whatever the GM thinks is appropriate? Apply Strain if you don't want to think about it.
Any Triumphs = Give automatic big mechanical bonus, or whatever you think appropriate/establish at your table.
Any Despairs = Critical issue up to the GM.

I honestly feel people are reading WAY into this in terms of difficulty.

When it comes to probability breakdown - you guys are spot on. There are BIG probability issues in longterm "high-level" play. But it's that way with most die-pool games. Likewise there are odd mathematical issues in most RPG's like d20 post 12th-lvl. The whole point of being a good GM is surfing that wave and making it work.

But I find it funny dismissing this as overly complex when it really sounds like people hate it being "gimmicky" - it IS gimmicky. But to me, the question is "does it work"?

It does. If we're talking about "Did they need to do it this way?" Of course not. And yeah I wish they didn't. But they did - and in the early game and mid-power-level zones of play, it works rather nicely. If you try to run campaigns with the depths I run my games, you'll *really* find some warts that are solvable but frankly it's not worth the effort to do so. THAT is what pisses me off about the system. You can get a good surface game experience, but when you try to do a little more depth of play: crafting custom stuff, sandbox-style like I do, it falls apart *because* the designers were totally arbitrary with how they statted stuff.

And it feels cheap, despite the high-quality physical production they put into their books. And frankly, for the cost, you're *NOT* getting anything remotely close to the scalability that you'd get running your favorite setting with your favorite system.

TL/DR - Genesys is for people that *want* to play with this dice-system. Nothing more. It works, it's got novelty if you're into that kinda thing. You have better options.

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 20, 2024, 10:22:08 AM

Quote from: BadApple on June 20, 2024, 07:07:13 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 20, 2024, 02:24:21 AM

Quote from: Omega on June 19, 2024, 08:50:29 PMAs long as you can grock the symbols its not horrible. Its just needlessly complicated by it.

I suspect players familliar with the FATE system and its funky dice will grasp this slightly easier.

You say needlessly complicated, but how would you build a system that produces two axes of results with Yes/But and No/And weighted more heavily than Yes/And and No/But (because if you get a lot of successes, you probably don't have many Advantages, likewise the reverse and carry this over to not being likely to get a lot of both negative outcomes)?

If you say that you don't see the need for a system to generate such outcomes, then you don't appreciate the appeal of Genesys to its fans.

A home brew rule I use in my D&D game is two dice, a d20 and a d8.  The d20 is used in the normal fashion and the d8 is to adjudicate secondary events.  I don't always use the d8 but I always have my players call it out.

Here's a simple example on how I use the D8:  A rogue is picking a lock in an alley off a busy street.  His primary effort is to open the lock and that is decided by the d20 but whether a passer-by happens to catch him doing it is determined by the d8. Almost always, the meaning and consequences of the d8 roll are hidden from the players.  This way the Rogue won't find out he's been spotted right away but rather four hours later when confronted by the local sheriff when he's relaxing at the tavern and thinking he got away Scott free. 

Is that d8 outcome totally random, or can the PC's choices/gear/talents impact it in some way? Also, if the outcome is hidden, how will the player know how to impact it?

The d8 is the y axis from the x axis of the primary check.  It's less impactful but a bit more wild from the perspective of the players as they don't have any conscious direct impact on the roll.

I always take the PCs into consideration when weighting the results of the secondary die and I may even wave the result altogether if the PCs played the encounter correctly or have features that make the likelihood much smaller.  I always have a copy of all the PC sheets so I can reference them before making the call.  The d8 is also used for possible good outcomes as well.  In the end, it's a representative of the luck that players have that they cannot plan for but aren't critical to the central thread of the adventure.

I don't use the D8 with every throw but I don't let the players know what ones are or are not used.  I also don't let on what kind of thing the d8 is used for.  I try to keep it balanced between possible good and bad outcomes and I keep the outcomes a bit restrained so that it doesn't throw the adventure itself out of whack but blends in and bends it a little for more fluid world reaction.

Is the magic item you just picked up charged and ready to go?  Let the d8 decide.
Did the ancient trap you step on give you enough warning for you to try and dodge?  Let the d8 decide.
Does one of your hirelings have a match in his pocket to help the party start a fire?  Let the d8 decide.

In all of these cases, the d8 is a secondary effect to a skill check.   

Quote from: Omega on June 20, 2024, 05:57:38 PMPercentile system or a variant on various DM Emulators that broaden things into a three-way axis of Yes, No and neutral combos.

Do you have an example of a game that uses this? Have you played or ran it?

Quote from: BadApple on June 20, 2024, 08:54:48 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 20, 2024, 10:22:08 AM

Quote from: BadApple on June 20, 2024, 07:07:13 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 20, 2024, 02:24:21 AM

Quote from: Omega on June 19, 2024, 08:50:29 PMAs long as you can grock the symbols its not horrible. Its just needlessly complicated by it.

I suspect players familliar with the FATE system and its funky dice will grasp this slightly easier.

You say needlessly complicated, but how would you build a system that produces two axes of results with Yes/But and No/And weighted more heavily than Yes/And and No/But (because if you get a lot of successes, you probably don't have many Advantages, likewise the reverse and carry this over to not being likely to get a lot of both negative outcomes)?

If you say that you don't see the need for a system to generate such outcomes, then you don't appreciate the appeal of Genesys to its fans.

A home brew rule I use in my D&D game is two dice, a d20 and a d8.  The d20 is used in the normal fashion and the d8 is to adjudicate secondary events.  I don't always use the d8 but I always have my players call it out.

Here's a simple example on how I use the D8:  A rogue is picking a lock in an alley off a busy street.  His primary effort is to open the lock and that is decided by the d20 but whether a passer-by happens to catch him doing it is determined by the d8. Almost always, the meaning and consequences of the d8 roll are hidden from the players.  This way the Rogue won't find out he's been spotted right away but rather four hours later when confronted by the local sheriff when he's relaxing at the tavern and thinking he got away Scott free. 

Is that d8 outcome totally random, or can the PC's choices/gear/talents impact it in some way? Also, if the outcome is hidden, how will the player know how to impact it?

The d8 is the y axis from the x axis of the primary check.  It's less impactful but a bit more wild from the perspective of the players as they don't have any conscious direct impact on the roll.

I always take the PCs into consideration when weighting the results of the secondary die and I may even wave the result altogether if the PCs played the encounter correctly or have features that make the likelihood much smaller.  I always have a copy of all the PC sheets so I can reference them before making the call.  The d8 is also used for possible good outcomes as well.  In the end, it's a representative of the luck that players have that they cannot plan for but aren't critical to the central thread of the adventure.

I don't use the D8 with every throw but I don't let the players know what ones are or are not used.  I also don't let on what kind of thing the d8 is used for.  I try to keep it balanced between possible good and bad outcomes and I keep the outcomes a bit restrained so that it doesn't throw the adventure itself out of whack but blends in and bends it a little for more fluid world reaction.

Is the magic item you just picked up charged and ready to go?  Let the d8 decide.
Did the ancient trap you step on give you enough warning for you to try and dodge?  Let the d8 decide.
Does one of your hirelings have a match in his pocket to help the party start a fire?  Let the d8 decide.

In all of these cases, the d8 is a secondary effect to a skill check.   

So it's basically a randomizer attached to GM Fiat, with a GM Veto option added on? Why bother with it then and not just go with full on GM Fiat? The Genesys dice system gives a real mechanic that those wanting to play the game can actually interact with as opposed to just GM mental masturbation churning out some arbitrary second axis.

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 20, 2024, 11:19:57 PMSo it's basically a randomizer attached to GM Fiat, with a GM Veto option added on? Why bother with it then and not just go with full on GM Fiat? The Genesys dice system gives a real mechanic that those wanting to play the game can actually interact with as opposed to just GM mental masturbation churning out some arbitrary second axis.

If that's the view you're arguing with then why use dice at all, ever?  In the words of Gary Gygax, who believed that GMs should do all the rolls, "DMs use the dice for the sound they make."  It's a mechanic I like and one that seems to work for my table.  Every table and every GM is different so maybe I'm a unique use case.

I don't decide on the spot when to use the d8, it's in my notes as well as what the outcomes are.  Any time I drop a scripted result, it's because my best judgement is that the current flow of the game and the player's choices have rendered it moot in some way.  Sometimes it's because they've done things that make it nearly impossible for the result to make sense and in some cases they made the outcome a dead certainty.  In most cases, I'm using modifiers that are directly from the PC's stats or as a numerical representation of preceding events and conditions.  The only time it's arbitrary in my view is when the party has done something unexpected and impactful that I didn't previously account for and I need to do my best to take it into account.

As we have gone on for three pages and a year now, I think I have a slightly more refined opinion on Genesys.

The problem with the system is that it has a bunch of useful, but taxing features which are stuck in the "always on" position because of the custom dice. If the system defaulted to being a simple Pass/ Fail with optional rules to add the other stuff, it would be a genuinely good system because it would have a smoother learning curve and could theoretically transition from being a standard dice pool to providing an interesting narrative prompt when asked, which would mean that it could bridge the gap between crunchy gameplay and narrative gameplay and be a strictly better FATE.

Alas, that isn't the game we have.

I am thankful for Genesys, though, because without it I would not have realized that having features stuck in the "Always On" position is a terrible idea. This is one of those things where the flaw is rather subtle and isn't particularly obvious until you've seen a system properly step in a turd with it.

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 20, 2024, 11:14:13 PM

Quote from: Omega on June 20, 2024, 05:57:38 PMPercentile system or a variant on various DM Emulators that broaden things into a three-way axis of Yes, No and neutral combos.

Do you have an example of a game that uses this? Have you played or ran it?

Lets see.
Scarlet Heroes uses a weighted d20 table emulating the Yes/No-And/But style with a d6 mofifier.

CHRGE an MUNE use a Yes/No plus a And/But/neutral axis. Sadly the designer of CHRGE passed away a few years ago it seems.

Mythic uses a weighted percentile chart and ALOT of modifyers and expanders based on the what when and where as well as a gradually increasing chance something goes not as expected.

Albedo may be one of the earliest with its little table that used a 2d6 to get 5 different possible outcomes. Mostly meant for when the DM is drawing a blank. But it has its uses outside that.

My own system uses a Yes/Neutral/No-And/Neutral/But system using a d10 or percentile. Originally using a d12.

There are others but those were the ones I could remember and dig up quick.

Quote from: Omega on June 22, 2024, 09:11:13 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 20, 2024, 11:14:13 PM

Quote from: Omega on June 20, 2024, 05:57:38 PMPercentile system or a variant on various DM Emulators that broaden things into a three-way axis of Yes, No and neutral combos.

Do you have an example of a game that uses this? Have you played or ran it?

Lets see.
Scarlet Heroes uses a weighted d20 table emulating the Yes/No-And/But style with a d6 mofifier.

CHRGE an MUNE use a Yes/No plus a And/But/neutral axis. Sadly the designer of CHRGE passed away a few years ago it seems.

Mythic uses a weighted percentile chart and ALOT of modifyers and expanders based on the what when and where as well as a gradually increasing chance something goes not as expected.

Albedo may be one of the earliest with its little table that used a 2d6 to get 5 different possible outcomes. Mostly meant for when the DM is drawing a blank. But it has its uses outside that.

My own system uses a Yes/Neutral/No-And/Neutral/But system using a d10 or percentile. Originally using a d12.

There are others but those were the ones I could remember and dig up quick.

Thank you. I'll look into them.

Do you know from memory if players can modify the second axis? It's usually clear how to modify the first axis in most games, but how does, say having a higher strength modify the two axes on an athletics or melee combat roll (substitute another trait/skill/task combo if those are not appropriate for the game in question)?

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 22, 2024, 10:09:00 PMDo you know from memory if players can modify the second axis? It's usually clear how to modify the first axis in most games,

Most are more freeform and focussed on just getting an answer to whatever question was asked.

Closest to player modifyers are Mythic...

And an oddball one called Elminster's Guide to Solo Adventuring. One of my players pointed me at it recently as they know I collect DM emulators and solo systems. Its only a buck on DM's Guild so grabbed it. Its built for 5e D&D and solo play, but can handle groups. Its mostly for playing through published modules. That uses a branching system based on 3 factors. Weight for or against. Have anything that can be applied, and any applicable stats grant a + or -? And from that you derive a DC number and roll against it.