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Spin-off of the Mummy: The Curse thread that featured some people stating their nWoD preferences.

What nWoD games do you read, play and enjoy?

I've read Requiem, Forsaken, Awakening, Lost and Vigil, and I love them all to bits. Alas, Promethean and Geist elude me still.

I've played in a Changeling: The Lost mini-campaign that was pretty kick-ass, and now I'm playing Requiem after several years without playing Masquerade. It's great to revisit the classics, e.g. last session's torching down a biker bar after a big honkin' battle between berserk vampires and the customers turns the place into a giant Masquerade breach.

I have yet to run anything nWoD but I'd love to take a shot at

Mage: The Awakening. I fell in love with the nWoD's red-headed stepchild since reading Dave Brookshaw's Broken Diamond AP thread over at RPGnet.

Hunter: The Vigil. All-mortal monster-hunter games, pre-Reckoning, were some of the best oWoD sessions that I ran. Also, WoD: Slasher is tits.

Werewolf: The Forsaken. I haven't read Territories yet, but I feel the premise -- "mark a territory as your own, defend it against fucking everyone in this world and the next" -- can be as strong a procedure for sandbox campaigns as D&D's dungeon crawls or Traveller's speculative trading.

What about you?

I'd love to try nWoD. I was a *huge* oWoD fan, but I moved away from my gaming group shortly before nWoD came out, and I haven't found a group since then that's interested in it.

To be honest, I'm not sure how much I'd like some parts of oWod--for example, Requiem doesn't grab me that much (not nearly as much as VtM), but I've only read it, not played. But other parts look very cool.

Whats the difference between the two, is it setting or system?

Quote from: The Traveller;595352Whats the difference between the two, is it setting or system?

Between oWoD and nWoD? Both. As with WW games in general, the mechanics remain roughly similar in that they are based on d10 pools for counting successes, but the details differ: for example, the newer system always uses a fixed target number of 8, features an altered attribute set in a 3x3 grid, and resolves all attacks through a single roll. (Also, this variant's called Storytelling as opposed to the older Storyteller.)

Setting-wise, there's no continuity from the earlier WoD, and in fact no metaplot at all. The basic game is all about ordinary mortal PCs who find themselves up against supernatural threats, with ghosts as the sample monster. Each of the lines like Vampire: The Requiem then introduces a supernatural character template which can be applied to those PCs, with related setting material that GMs may pick and choose from as they wish. Unlike the old titles, these aren't standalone RPGs, more like expansion sets which still require the core rules.

The only nWoD line that I've personally been interested in, with the possible exception of that mortal core, is Changeling: The Lost. And pretty much the only things that it has in common with its oWoD predecessor is the fey theme and a handful of mostly redefined leftover terminology.

The blue book mortals was actually the first thing that made me go "Wow I want to play this!" As NWoD held, to me, a deeper brooding sort of creeping horror over the more gonzo aspects of CWoD. I still love CWoD. I started playing it around 94-95 and ended up reading or playing just about every line and supplement they had.

NWoD I haven't had much time to play with my old group as people moved away, we went on to careers,etc. Currently Mage and Hunter rank as my favorites of the line. Hunter as it's extension of what I thought was a very good approach to playing mortals in the game line. Mage ended up working out for me despite my RL dislike for Gnostic notions due to it really pushing that yes, it's ok to actually DO magic. Ascension was a favorite in my CWoD days but left a bad taste in my mouth a the years went by.

Vampire I like but I'm still a bit burned out on vampires in rpgs as it was the game of choice for tabletop and LARPing where I was. Requiem hit a lot of the right mechanical buttons for me with things like Bloody Potency, the tighter clans, Predator's Taint, Nosferatu I would actually play. But I never get around to actually playing it.

Werewolf despite liking it's better workable power level has never grabbed me. None of the tribes, Lodges,etc have made me go, "Yes I want to play that!"

Again while I don't know if I'll ever play it Changeling looks amazing. I was lucky enough to have a copy of the Dark Ages Changeling book that came out for CWoD to a lot of praise. Lost hit on a lot of the classical mythical feel that made that book work.

Promethean and Geist just do not generate any interest to me.

While Demon sounds intriguing due to the big departure from metaplot that can happen with it compared to old Demon. I am going to wait and see. The Earthbound was an amazing supplement so if it can capture any of that magic I will check it out.

Being a history nut, egypt-o-phile, Lovecraft fan,etc. Mummy has hit all my buttons so I suspect it will slide in as my favorite NWoD game after I've had the chance to read it.

Mortals and Magi are my favorites.  The new systems and the non-metaplot wearing supernaturals are the best parts of the nWoD, in my opinion.

The generic basic system lends itself well to a variety of settings, such as my Old West game, 1930's Bootlegging, Weird War II and lots of others.

I have only run Requiem and Mortals nWoD, and I love it more than Masquerade. I'm interested in other games of nWoD, but never got around to reading and running them.

I own Mage: Awakening and it happened to me the same thing that with Ascension. I just can't bring myself to finish the fucking book. There is something in it preventing me from doing it.

Changeling: The Lost is an absolutely brilliant game with a brilliant premise. Imagine the Z'bri from Tribe 8 crossed with the Cenobites from Hellraiser and you have The Fae, creatures that have abducted your character and turned them into something not-quite human. Then, somehow, you escaped. Or at least think you did.

Quote from: TristramEvans;595500Imagine the Z'bri from Tribe 8 crossed with the Cenobites from Hellraiser and you have The Fae, creatures that have abducted your character and turned them into something not-quite human.

Hellraiser would actually be rather easy to adapt into CtL. For example, just picture the Cenobites as loyalists, Hell's Labyrinth as an Arcadian Realm, Leviathan as a True Fae, and the Lament Configuration as a more powerful and reusable version of travel tokens.

Requiem v. Masquerade

I like Requiem, but it seems watered down next to the Masquerade.  I can't help but think they basically shoehorned stuff on purpose into the "no-metaplot" paradigm.  How can we prevent 1,000-year old vampires from running the world? - Make sure the 1,000-year old vampires torpor up every 75-150 years, and can't remember everything so who knows if you're 1,000 years old or 10,000?  Meh.

It seems that Requiem sucks out all the historical coolness of Vampire.  It does add a tragic surrealism to it though as Vampires may or may not recognize enemies, allies, who have been lost to time.  Almost seems like the premise is better for a vignette episodic campaign rather then a traditional one.

Quote from: CRKrueger;595516Requiem v. Masquerade

I like Requiem, but it seems watered down next to the Masquerade.  I can't help but think they basically shoehorned stuff on purpose into the "no-metaplot" paradigm.  How can we prevent 1,000-year old vampires from running the world? - Make sure the 1,000-year old vampires torpor up every 75-150 years, and can't remember everything so who knows if you're 1,000 years old or 10,000?  Meh.

It seems that Requiem sucks out all the historical coolness of Vampire.  It does add a tragic surrealism to it though as Vampires may or may not recognize enemies, allies, who have been lost to time.  Almost seems like the premise is better for a vignette episodic campaign rather then a traditional one.

I think it was a deliberate decision to give modern-day neonate PCs a shot at becoming movers and shakers. In Masquerade, joining any faction is like working at a corp in which everyone from middle management up is fucking immortal and will never, ever retire, and if nothing changes you're going to remain an intern forever yourself. Requiem's intermittent torpor means that there's some opening for PCs to rise to Sheriff, Primogen, Harpy, etc. and maybe even Prince if they play their cards right.

Quote from: Imperator;595480I own Mage: Awakening and it happened to me the same thing that with Ascension. I just can't bring myself to finish the fucking book. There is something in it preventing me from doing it.

I'm running Awakening at the moment and we are really struggling with the system because no one else wants to read through the book to grok all the rules well enough :(
I've read it a few times but nothing sticks and I have to keep looking things up during the game. :confused:

Quote from: CRKrueger;595516How can we prevent 1,000-year old vampires from running the world? - Make sure the 1,000-year old vampires torpor up every 75-150 years, and can't remember everything so who knows if you're 1,000 years old or 10,000?  Meh.

I remember reading somewhere, possibly on the WW boards, that the Fog of Eternity is one of those aspects of the game that The Strix Chronicle (a.k.a. "Sexmurder", a.k.a. Requiem Revised) is going to change.

Quote from: The Butcher;595541I think it was a deliberate decision to give modern-day neonate PCs a shot at becoming movers and shakers. In Masquerade, joining any faction is like working at a corp in which everyone from middle management up is fucking immortal and will never, ever retire, and if nothing changes you're going to remain an intern forever yourself. Requiem's intermittent torpor means that there's some opening for PCs to rise to Sheriff, Primogen, Harpy, etc. and maybe even Prince if they play their cards right.

I have been playing in a VtM game for a while now, and just started running a VtR game. I think you are right on the money here.

VtM is so jam-packed with darkness and highly detailed, stratified society, that it ceases to be horrific to me - its not about "vampires" but more about an undead society specific to WW that calls itself vampires.

There are a great number of mechanical differences, changes to disciplines, etc between the two. The more I touch VtR the more I agree that nWOD is an entirely new game with the VtM flavors added.

One thing I have discovered about VtR (and nWOD) is that I feel more comfortable simply tossing out systems and rules. While I dont think nWOD is quite a universal system, its far more modular, and WW seems to anticipate you'll make a lot of your own changes. For example, in the game I just started, I tossed out clans (for the most part). It changes the game but it doesn't fly apart at the seams.

Quote from: CRKrueger;595516Requiem v. Masquerade

I like Requiem, but it seems watered down next to the Masquerade.  I can't help but think they basically shoehorned stuff on purpose into the "no-metaplot" paradigm.  How can we prevent 1,000-year old vampires from running the world? - Make sure the 1,000-year old vampires torpor up every 75-150 years, and can't remember everything so who knows if you're 1,000 years old or 10,000?  Meh.

It seems that Requiem sucks out all the historical coolness of Vampire.  It does add a tragic surrealism to it though as Vampires may or may not recognize enemies, allies, who have been lost to time.  Almost seems like the premise is better for a vignette episodic campaign rather then a traditional one.

Yeah sure. If you want to ignore the insetting and meta reasons in V:TM that players and characters could get tired of. It's "watered down" in your sense if the point was to make V:tM part Deux:Electric Boogaloo.

There's nothing that says you HAVE to have ancient Kindred running the shots, manipulating or otherwise lording over their lesser undead.

And if Requiem sucks all the historical coolness out of Vampire then all that time I spent reading the clanbooks, Ancient Mysteries or Requiem for Rome were mere fantasy.

Quote from: MrMephistopheles;595616Yeah sure. If you want to ignore the insetting and meta reasons in V:TM that players and characters could get tired of. It's "watered down" in your sense if the point was to make V:tM part Deux:Electric Boogaloo.

There's nothing that says you HAVE to have ancient Kindred running the shots, manipulating or otherwise lording over their lesser undead.

And if Requiem sucks all the historical coolness out of Vampire then all that time I spent reading the clanbooks, Ancient Mysteries or Requiem for Rome were mere fantasy.

Don't get me wrong, I was a huge Masquerade canon/metaplot nerd back in the day. The guys and I would go into lengthy debates of the finer points of VtM trivia, e.g. "what's the deal with the Giovanni? What did they do to Narses, Prince of Venice? Narses is older than Augustus Giovanni, he should've kicked their asses! But wait, this was about the same time as the Anarch Revolt, did Narses declare for the Camarilla or the Sabbat? No way man, he was a Heresiarch with the Cainite Heresy, he probably got burned at the stake in the 1200s." And so on, and so forth.

Now canon-wank is a time-honored nerd hobby that's at least as old as plastic Vulcan ears, but what makes for the best fiction is not necessarily the same that makes for the best gaming. Playing Masquerade with a neonate (or even elder, with the Elysium rules) PC could feel constraining, a la Forgotten Realms with all the über-NPCs, where you can't walk a dozen yards without bumping into Elminster or Drizzt or whoever.

Incidentally, this is my pet theory about the popularity of the bizarre 1994 Masquerade supplement, Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand. By offering PCs a chance to belong to the darkest and most secret vampiric conspiracy, it made the canon NPCs (mostly ignorant of the True Black Hand's existence and nature) look positively retarded, as it was the TBH PCs who were "clued in" to what was really happening in the Jyhad and during the Final Nights. It was crap storytelling (which is why WW literally nuked it) but it was actually pretty good gaming fodder, and I kind of regret badmouthing it back in the day when I was a canon zombie.

As for Requiem and history, I tend to see it as a blank canvas for the GM to paint in whatever color they desire. I adore Requiem's (mis)appropriation of names and concepts from Masquerade, humorous (Bruja FTW!) or otherwise. When I run Requiem, I rename the Invictus the Camarilla (far more fitting for both the faction and the word), either Belial's Brood or VII should be the Sabbat, and maybe the Carthians should be the Anarchs (what is a "Carthian" anyway?). I've renamed the Osite bloodline as Cappadocians. Hell, I even considered a Black Hand covenant for my nWoD, with a rite-based (a la Crúac or Theban Sorcery) necromantic discipline and an axe to grind with the Ordo Dracul.

Quote from: The Butcher;595624Don't get me wrong, I was a huge Masquerade canon/metaplot nerd back in the day. The guys and I would go into lengthy debates of the finer points of VtM trivia, e.g. "what's the deal with the Giovanni? What did they do to Narses, Prince of Venice? Narses is older than Augustus Giovanni, he should've kicked their asses! But wait, this was about the same time as the Anarch Revolt, did Narses declare for the Camarilla or the Sabbat? No way man, he was a Heresiarch with the Cainite Heresy, he probably got burned at the stake in the 1200s." And so on, and so forth.

Now canon-wank is a time-honored nerd hobby that's at least as old as plastic Vulcan ears, but what makes for the best fiction is not necessarily the same that makes for the best gaming. Playing Masquerade with a neonate (or even elder, with the Elysium rules) PC could feel constraining, a la Forgotten Realms with all the über-NPCs, where you can't walk a dozen yards without bumping into Elminster or Drizzt or whoever.

Incidentally, this is my pet theory about the popularity of the bizarre 1994 Masquerade supplement, Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand. By offering PCs a chance to belong to the darkest and most secret vampiric conspiracy, it made the canon NPCs (mostly ignorant of the True Black Hand's existence and nature) look positively retarded, as it was the TBH PCs who were "clued in" to what was really happening in the Jyhad and during the Final Nights. It was crap storytelling (which is why WW literally nuked it) but it was actually pretty good gaming fodder, and I kind of regret badmouthing it back in the day when I was a canon zombie.

The rumor on DSotBH was that the main writer(I don't remember offhand how many writers were involved with it) was pissed at White Wolf for some reason and included some stupid stuff on purpose. Probably just an rpg urban legend but dunno.

I mean I liked a lot of metaplot. I dived straight into the Transylvania crossovers and spent three hours or so with a friend on a cough back in 99' or 00' going over as much of the history of VtM and metaplot as I could remember when he asked me bout V:tM and wanting to get into it. Thing could wear and that can happen with really anything but it definitely did for me with CWoD. Vampire and Werewolf especially were favorites but no small part of my diving into Exalted was taking time to get away from the grim weight on your PC's shoulders that the game world could put on you.

Not to pile on what CRK is saying but as a player of both CWoD and NWoD I want them to stand distinctly. Too much comparison gets old.

Except, you know, I wasn't a heavily invested WoD player, didn't buy every single novel in the series, wasn't a "metaplot whore" playing Electric Boogaloo or any of this other horseshit that boils down to " you not like something I like, WARGBARGL".

Yes, you can play a historical game set in Rome, and then unlike VtM, if your characters make it to the modern nights, you'll have absolutely no clue what you actually did.  That's all I was saying, if the character's cannot remember a 300 year old unlife, then there's no sense of history there to invest in the character, instead it's replaced with the Fog of Eternity.  Which, BTW, is a different way to explore the character, but comes at the cost of diluting the sense of history.  Sorry, it's pretty clear cut, if you can't remember it, you don't have a sense of it, do you?  Kinda definitional.

Now I agree that to a 13th gen brand new Vamp that got made yesterday, the whole "you know all that political, lying, kissass bullshit you went through during your deadend job every day?  Congrats, now it's forever, fuck up and you'll die again in ways so painful humans can't comprehend." can be stifling, boring and definitely unfun, but that's not the only way to play.  There's always katana and sunglasses.  :cool:  I know that's why they did it, but when I can so obviously see the design choices behind the framework, it constantly pokes me.

Looking at the WoD boards, which I don't do much, I see there's a lot of Edition War stuff between oWoD and nWoD, so I guess we can leave comparisons out, apparently the wounds are too fresh, but just like the D&D crap that goes on here, criticism isn't edition warring, and disagreement doesn't mean you're a {insert particular game's catchphrase for the other side in the edition war}.

WTF is Sexmurder?  Is that just the Project Codename for Strix Chronicles?  I also see they're taking that God-Machine stuff and turning that into a metaplot for nWoD?

So that's what WW is taking from the success of oWoD reprints, people want metaplot?  I guess they figure they can sell new metaplot to oWoD fans who might incorporate it, and people who don't like metaplot can use it like just another idea as opposed to the idea.

Has there been any other reference to the God-Machine other then that in the NWoD book?

The concept seems like a "Cosmology Defining Event", like MtA was to the original WoD, but maybe it's not meant to be integrated.  Do the different lines of nWoD have much intersection?

Quote from: The Butcher;595541I think it was a deliberate decision to give modern-day neonate PCs a shot at becoming movers and shakers. In Masquerade, joining any faction is like working at a corp in which everyone from middle management up is fucking immortal and will never, ever retire, and if nothing changes you're going to remain an intern forever yourself. Requiem's intermittent torpor means that there's some opening for PCs to rise to Sheriff, Primogen, Harpy, etc. and maybe even Prince if they play their cards right.

You are spot on, confirmed by Justin Achilli. They wanted to make neonates able to impact cities without having to face eternal ancients that wouldn't budge ever.

Quote from: GrimGent;595590I remember reading somewhere, possibly on the WW boards, that the Fog of Eternity is one of those aspects of the game that The Strix Chronicle (a.k.a. "Sexmurder", a.k.a. Requiem Revised) is going to change.

I'd like to know more about this chronicle.

Quote from: CRKrueger;595647Yes, you can play a historical game set in Rome, and then unlike VtM, if your characters make it to the modern nights, you'll have absolutely no clue what you actually did.  That's all I was saying, if the character's cannot remember a 300 year old unlife, then there's no sense of history there to invest in the character, instead it's replaced with the Fog of Eternity.  Which, BTW, is a different way to explore the character, but comes at the cost of diluting the sense of history.  Sorry, it's pretty clear cut, if you can't remember it, you don't have a sense of it, do you?  Kinda definitional.

But you can keep detailed journals, records and all that and try to preseve them for the next time you awake. Even if you can know for sure if they have been tampered with. The flavor text of Requiem for Rome shows brilliantly this phenomenon.

Quote from: CRKrueger;595650So that's what WW is taking from the success of oWoD reprints, people want metaplot?  I guess they figure they can sell new metaplot to oWoD fans who might incorporate it, and people who don't like metaplot can use it like just another idea as opposed to the idea.

Has there been any other reference to the God-Machine other then that in the NWoD book?

The concept seems like a "Cosmology Defining Event", like MtA was to the original WoD, but maybe it's not meant to be integrated.  Do the different lines of nWoD have much intersection?

Indeed many people likes metaplot. It is only natural they sell it to them. As they are doing it in a completely, apart of the line, this-won't impact-any-other-book product, I cannot see a problem with it.

Also, nWoD lines are ready for crossover at the level of systems, but they don't need to intersect at all. It's up to each GM-

I have all the NWoD games published so far. I like them all in different ways. My favorites are Vampire the Requiem and Promethean the Created. I own quite a number of supplements pertaining to the former, and all the latter's.

Quote from: CRKrueger;595650WTF is Sexmurder?  Is that just the Project Codename for Strix Chronicles?  I also see they're taking that God-Machine stuff and turning that into a metaplot for nWoD?

"Sexmurder" was the tongue-in-cheek working title for The Strix Chronicle, which will essentially be a revised edition of Vampire: The Requiem and won't require the earlier book. The God-Machine Chronicle for the basic game won't go quite that far, but will still introduce significant rules updates in addition to that new "default setting" material. The mythology of the God-Machine itself has been hinted at throughout the different lines, but never elaborated on in any greater detail (which I always felt was a bit of a missed opportunity, frankly).

I suspect that the "modular metaplot" aspect of the chronicle books will be treated in the same pick-and-choose toolkit fashion that's been characteristic of the nWoD until now. Equinox Road's "up to the GM" approach to the dilemma of the two Arcadias is a good crossover example.

Quote from: CRKrueger;595647Except, you know, I wasn't a heavily invested WoD player, didn't buy every single novel in the series, wasn't a "metaplot whore" playing Electric Boogaloo or any of this other horseshit that boils down to " you not like something I like, WARGBARGL".

Chill, Krugs. I'm fine with you preferring Masquerade to Requiem and I don't know what it is that we've said that makes you think this is a pissing match. We all had different experiences and I don't see anyone trying to suggest that yours was "wrong" or anything.

Quote from: CRKrueger;595647Yes, you can play a historical game set in Rome, and then unlike VtM, if your characters make it to the modern nights, you'll have absolutely no clue what you actually did.  That's all I was saying, if the character's cannot remember a 300 year old unlife, then there's no sense of history there to invest in the character, instead it's replaced with the Fog of Eternity.  Which, BTW, is a different way to explore the character, but comes at the cost of diluting the sense of history.  Sorry, it's pretty clear cut, if you can't remember it, you don't have a sense of it, do you?  Kinda definitional.

No, it's not clear-cut, and you could have been a tad more clear about it, because "historicity" means fuck-all to me. No need to assume bad faith where there was only failure to communicate.

I think having a PC elder vamp trying to investigate and make sense of what actually happened and what was Fog of Eternity nightmare stuff makes for a nice element that can actually play up a contrast between history and memory. (I never actually liked the idea of immortals with unlimited memories anyway.) It's a nice theme to a certain sort of game and actually smacks of film noir to me -- where's the truth in all of this?

Quote from: CRKrueger;595647Now I agree that to a 13th gen brand new Vamp that got made yesterday, the whole "you know all that political, lying, kissass bullshit you went through during your deadend job every day?  Congrats, now it's forever, fuck up and you'll die again in ways so painful humans can't comprehend." can be stifling, boring and definitely unfun, but that's not the only way to play.  There's always katana and sunglasses.  :cool:  I know that's why they did it, but when I can so obviously see the design choices behind the framework, it constantly pokes me.

What happened with Masquerade was a shift in the implied mode of play. 1e took the Punk in Gothic-Punk fairly seriously actually, and pretty much assumed from the start and all the way that the PCs would default to the one and only sane response to such a preternaturally static and oppressive system, i.e., put on a trenchcoat, sling a katana across your back and join the Anarchs. 1e books used "the Anarchs" and "the PCs" interchangeably.

But at some point gaming the hierarchy and exploring the ages-old intrigues and mysteries of the Jyhad started being treated as the default. I have no idea why this happened but I suspect organized LARP play (the Camarilla fan club) was at least partly to blame.

Quote from: CRKrueger;595647Looking at the WoD boards, which I don't do much, I see there's a lot of Edition War stuff between oWoD and nWoD, so I guess we can leave comparisons out, apparently the wounds are too fresh, but just like the D&D crap that goes on here, criticism isn't edition warring, and disagreement doesn't mean you're a {insert particular game's catchphrase for the other side in the edition war}.

We're good then. :)

Quote from: GrimGent;595668"Sexmurder" was the tongue-in-cheek working title for The Strix Chronicle, which will essentially be a revised edition of Vampire: The Requiem and won't require the earlier book. The God-Machine Chronicle for the basic game won't go quite that far, but will still introduce significant rules updates in addition to that new "default setting" material. The mythology of the God-Machine itself has been hinted at throughout the different lines, but never elaborated on in any greater detail (which I always felt was a bit of a missed opportunity, frankly).

I suspect that the "modular metaplot" aspect of the chronicle books will be treated in the same pick-and-choose toolkit fashion that's been characteristic of the nWoD until now. Equinox Road's "up to the GM" approach to the dilemma of the two Arcadias is a good crossover example.

I had heard about both supplements but I had no idea they were introducing major system changes. I'm looking forward to both.

Do you have a link where this is announced or discussed?

Quote from: CRKrueger;595647Except, you know, I wasn't a heavily invested WoD player, didn't buy every single novel in the series, wasn't a "metaplot whore" playing Electric Boogaloo or any of this other horseshit that boils down to " you not like something I like, WARGBARGL".

Immaterial commentary to a comparison of VtR and VtM where VtR is said to be watered down because it's "not V:tM."

Quote from: CRKrueger;595647Yes, you can play a historical game set in Rome, and then unlike VtM, if your characters make it to the modern nights, you'll have absolutely no clue what you actually did.  That's all I was saying, if the character's cannot remember a 300 year old unlife, then there's no sense of history there to invest in the character, instead it's replaced with the Fog of Eternity.  Which, BTW, is a different way to explore the character, but comes at the cost of diluting the sense of history.  Sorry, it's pretty clear cut, if you can't remember it, you don't have a sense of it, do you?  Kinda definitional.

So a strawman argument about the Fog of Ages is supposed to bear on someone's enjoyment of a historical setting for a chronicle....ok.

Quote from: CRKrueger;595647Looking at the WoD boards, which I don't do much, I see there's a lot of Edition War stuff between oWoD and nWoD, so I guess we can leave comparisons out, apparently the wounds are too fresh, but just like the D&D crap that goes on here, criticism isn't edition warring, and disagreement doesn't mean you're a {insert particular game's catchphrase for the other side in the edition war}.

Not really. The discussion crops up in threads very infrequently. You can go a quarter of a year without even seeing a single thread on the subject.

Quote from: The Butcher;595683I had heard about both supplements but I had no idea they were introducing major system changes. I'm looking forward to both.

Do you have a link where this is announced or discussed?

Point of clarification. And the VtR boards has some discussion with Russel on it. But Sexmurder isn't metaplot in the traditional sense. It's a self contained chronicle dealing with the overall setting of V:tR. It has an internal metaplot but the events and metaphysical realities it presents wont have any impact on what other material has in the sand box approach. Likewise for the God-Machine Chronicles and the Werewolf one IF it gets made.

Quote from: MrMephistopheles;595687where VtR is said to be watered down because it's "not V:tM."

That part where you deliberately mischaracterize what I actually said because what I actually said you can't deal with - yeah that doesn't work here, try harder.

Quote from: MrMephistopheles;595687So a strawman argument about the Fog of Ages is supposed to bear on someone's enjoyment of a historical setting for a chronicle....ok.

Interesting that you should mention strawman arguments while you're making 100% one yourself.  Lets look at what actually happened shall we?

• I pointed out one aspect of VtR I found problematic compared to VtM.
• You really don't like that and respond with such stunningly crafted gems as "oh yeah I used to be a metaplot nerd too before I saw the light" and something about VtM: Electric Boogaloo.
• I clarify, pointing exactly to what I'm talking about, namely having a sense of history as the character moves through time, something that by definition you don't have without memory, the foggy surrealistic memory or discovering yourself through epistolary means not being the same thing at all.
• You define strawman and then make a strawman argument yourself, going back to the claim that I was apparently arguing something like Requiem for Rome isn't historical.  

Maybe the first time you may have misinterpreted (Butcher didn't get what I was saying either, so ok, first time was on me) but since I've specifically said twice now what I was really talking about, you persisting in arguing that I was saying otherwise is just netwarz bullshit.

Quote from: MrMephistopheles;595687Not really. The discussion crops up in threads very infrequently. You can go a quarter of a year without even seeing a single thread on the subject.

The people in this thread (http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=68096) seem to think it's a little more prevalent then you do, but whatever.  I'll stick to nWoD from now on in the thread. ;)

nWoD Changeling is awesome.
Vampire is pretty good.
Werewolf and Mage are just plain awful. Especially considering how great the oWoD versions were.

I found a press release here. (http://theonyxpath.com/release-schedule-august-2012-august-2013/)

Quote from: press releaseMidway through the schedule we're going to be presenting a new idea for the WoD "blue books" and Vampire the Requiem with the God Machine and Strix Chronicles respectively. These both begin with a fiction anthology that combines the best fiction from the last eight years of game books with all new works that immerse the reader in the world as envisioned by the Chronicle. And when we say Chronicles, these aren't just big adventures but entire reimaginings of the game-line viewed through a strong storyline. These books are designed to present a default setting that Storytellers and players can look to as the consistent story-rich WoD core or VTR setting. They will contain the rules changes it is clear were needed after eight years of critical thinking and fan commentary, as well as mention of the various WoD tools that have been developed in that time such as the Tiers, SASs, etc. Basically, here are Chronicles that can be used whole-cloth or in pieces as you see fit, but which are there in their entirety with a rich and immersive background that can be enjoyed for it's own sake as well. And then, in August there is Demon: The ???- where we continue our rich tradition of not revealing the subtitle although, frankly, none of us remember why we always do that. Demon will build on the setting revealed in the God Machine Chronicle, but will stand entirely on its own as a new and terrifying supernatural game line in 2013.

So apparently they are going to be "Cosmology Defining Events" but only for that Chronicle, which is optional.  Metaplot with gigantic backstory that explains everything only if you want it to.

Very interesting, but if all the rules changes are only going to be in the Chronicles books then that usually has the effect of making the "optional" default settings de facto since everyone needs to buy the book to get the new rules, so why not use all this stuff we already bought?

The Fog of Eternity is not this "all or nothing" thing in Requiem. It's actually a wonderful role playing tool both to build the sandbox through the NPCs memories and the PCs take on it. You might have forgotten. You might remember something. You might even think you remember everything in detail of a past period of activity and get it mostly right... or completely wrong. It's a really great tool to set up things in the collective and individual memories of the vampires in the by Night, and for the players to play with it and come up with the characters, however delusional, they truly want to play.

Quote from: danbuter;595692nWoD Changeling is awesome.
Vampire is pretty good.
Werewolf and Mage are just plain awful. Especially considering how great the oWoD versions were.

Without comparing and contrasting WtA to WtF, what about WtF specifically didn't you like?

Forsaken and Awakening are the weak links for me too, I must say.

Quote from: Benoist;595694The Fog of Eternity is not this "all or nothing" thing in Requiem. It's actually a wonderful role playing tool both to build the sandbox through the NPCs memories and the PCs take on it. You might have forgotten. You might remember something. You might even think you remember everything in detail of a past period of activity and get it mostly right... or completely wrong. It's really great as a tool to set up things in the collective and individual memories of the vampires in the by Night, and for the players to play with it and come up with the characters, however delusional, they truly want to play.

It certainly can be a wonderful roleplaying tool - however, it is not the same wonderful roleplaying tool that comes from correctly remembering your passage through time, and those two tools are, to a certain degree, exclusive.

Quote from: CRKrueger;595698It certainly can be a wonderful roleplaying tool - however, it is not the same wonderful roleplaying tool that comes from correctly remembering your passage through time, and those two tools are, to a certain degree, exclusive.

You're right.

It's actually better, if you know how to use it.

And no. They are not actually exclusive.

Quote from: CRKrueger;595691That part where you deliberately mischaracterize what I actually said because what I actually said you can't deal with - yeah that doesn't work here, try harder.

You made a direct comparison of the games based on mechanical considerations for elders in your first post with your own words. There's nothing to strawman.

QuoteI like Requiem, but it seems watered down next to the Masquerade. I can't help but think they basically shoehorned stuff on purpose into the "no-metaplot" paradigm. How can we prevent 1,000-year old vampires from running the world? - Make sure the 1,000-year old vampires torpor up every 75-150 years, and can't remember everything so who knows if you're 1,000 years old or 10,000? Meh.

If that was not the comparison you wanted to make....then don't make it. BUT you did make it. Running to "You're being a strawman hypocrite!" does not change that. The rest of what you're saying is just more running away from that first statement. Preferring one or the other is one thing. But you specifically went beyond that.

Quote from: CRKrueger;595691The people in this thread (http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=68096) seem to think it's a little more prevalent then you do, but whatever.  I'll stick to nWoD from now on in the thread. ;)

You should probably not pick a thread that I'm participating in when you're trying to be smarmy and act like I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to the threads there. Particularly when the nice fellow that started the thread...if you paid attention...is mentioning inter group discussion starting his irritation outside the forums.

Quote from: MrMephistopheles;595707If that was not the comparison you wanted to make....then don't make it. BUT you did make it.

and, according to all accounts from people upthread, I was 100% right about that aspect, it was intentional to prevent elders from controlling a campaign in the designer's own words.  As I also said, the fact that I can so obviously see the design goal in the framework bugs me.  However, the wonders of multiple sentences is, I can actually say multiple things, like one other effect of the Fog is the effect on the historical sense of the setting, which you also took separate umbrage at, by misinterpreting (I'm starting to think deliberately) to mean that Requiem for Rome isn't historical.

@forum stuff - You say once a quarter, Shock in that thread says 'Every day it seems', maybe once a quarter seems like every day to him.  Go yell at him if he betraying the Orthodoxy.

Quote from: Benoist;595700You're right.

It's actually better, if you know how to use it.

Really? In all situations? No matter what you actually wanted out of a campaign involving immortals, a hazy and indistinct memory is always, objectively better?

Quote from: Benoist;595700And no. They are not actually exclusive.

Eh, maybe it's my German engineering genes clashing with your French philosophy genes, but to me, if I 100% recall events incorrectly, that is actually quite different then 100% recalling events correctly.  At some point they can be mutually exclusive, yes.  I cannot have perfect memory and imperfect memory simultaneously.  At least not speaking English.

Quote from: Benoist;595696Forsaken and Awakening are the weak links for me too, I must say.

Yeah, but why?  Forsaken didn't really do it for me either, but I can't really put my finger on why.

I have heard people mention that the nWoD lines, since they are divorced of metaplot and rely upon mere premise, can be hard to get into, and for some people, require a few key books to really get you engaged.

Quote from: The Butcher;595683I had heard about both supplements but I had no idea they were introducing major system changes. I'm looking forward to both.

Do you have a link where this is announced or discussed?

You may want to check up on the WW blog entries like this one (http://whitewolfblogs.com/blog/2012/09/26/seeing-in-the-dark/). At least over at RPGnet, Emprint compared The God-Machine Chronicle's relation to the WoD core as similar to that of D&D 3.5 to 3.0, and mentioned that it'll only include the mechanical details which have been revised. The Strix Chronicle, on the other hand, will include the complete vampire-related mechanics like VtR did, overhauled.

(Here (http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=66276) is that forum thread about the changes to the physical Disciplines, mentioned on the blog. It also touches on some of the changes to weapon damage and armour and such.)

Quote from: CRKrueger;595695Without comparing and contrasting WtA to WtF, what about WtF specifically didn't you like?

Werewolves are weak. They are also basically trapped in one area, defending a cairn. I don't like this at all. The cosmology/theme isn't that hot, either.

(And yes, I LOVED the whole theme of oWoD Werewolf (ecoterrorist fighting the Wyrm), and the fact that a werewolf was a combat machine, because they should be, dammit!)

Quote from: CRKrueger;595726I have heard people mention that the nWoD lines, since they are divorced of metaplot and rely upon mere premise, can be hard to get into, and for some people, require a few key books to really get you engaged.

Well, without additional books there is no metaplot, only background material. Even that sort of information admittedly tends to be less fixed in the nWoD: consider, say, the three alternative versions of VII from which GMs may choose whichever suits their own Requiem campaigns. But as newbie-friendly ready-to-run settings go, for instance Requiem's section on New Orleans is far more comprehensive than Masquerade's couple of pages on Gary, Indiana.

I've occasionally heard folks complain that they've found especially the earliest nWoD cores terribly dry, though.

Quote from: CRKrueger;595713Really? In all situations? No matter what you actually wanted out of a campaign involving immortals, a hazy and indistinct memory is always, objectively better?

Well, given that in one case (Masquerade) you are dealing with a certainty of rememberance, so really one single possibility, and in the other you are dealing with a nigh infinite spectrum of possibilities (remembering completely and accurately, remembering something inaccurately, remembering nothing etc.), I'm tempted to say "yes, in every case, unless your game concept needs that single one possibility at the exclusion of all others to properly work at the game table". Note I said "tempted" though, not that this is objectively the case.

If you want to have some feeling of historical consistency in your campaign you can make it a theme, maybe have an elder of the primogen or whatnot as a record keeper who, for some reason, would be trusted in this function (maybe he is deemed blessed by the Lancea Sanctum and thus implicitly supported by the Invictus, etc, that in itself potentially creating conflicts as some trust his historical records as "canon" while others very obviously wouldn't, and a sandbox like the "by Night" feeds on conflict, by nature), or some other alternative.

The point is that you can still make historical records and legend about Caine or whatever part of your sandbox (I did reinclude some legends about the biblical Caine in my Paris Alchymique, for instance), but you're not stuck with one line of thought or "canon" record for the setting anymore, and can interpret the Fog of Eternity for each particular NPC on a broad spectrum, instead of again, being stuck with that one default "he remembers everything" unless he'd be Malkavian or whatever odd duck. It makes the setting in general, the PCs themselves and however old they are (and they can be quite old now since that doesn't automatically reflect on their powers), and the sandbox surrounding them.

Quote from: CRKrueger;595713Eh, maybe it's my German engineering genes clashing with your French philosophy genes, but to me, if I 100% recall events incorrectly, that is actually quite different then 100% recalling events correctly.  At some point they can be mutually exclusive, yes.  I cannot have perfect memory and imperfect memory simultaneously.  At least not speaking English.

That bolded part is the problem. It's incorrect: it's not that "100% recall events incorrectly". It's that some will remember half and wonder if that was a dream, others remember nothing but think they got everything right from journals they seem to have written but were fed to them by some other NPC, some are historians gathering these incomplete, many of them false records to try to discover the truth, and yes, some vampires might remember mostly accurately as well. So in one case you have a proposition that INCLUDES the other, and in the other a proposition that is exclusive of everything else.

Hence, the former is in fact not exclusive of the latter, and the former is to me clearly superior from an interpretive, sandbox-building, and conflicts standpoint, and benefits the sandbox campaign concept more at the game table.

And I love both games, by the way. I might actually proclaim Masquerade the superior game overall, from my particular POV, because of the much more prevalent by Night structure with multiple examples to feed from throughout the run of the game, though the massive Damnation City book for Requiem is itself a very interesting take on the subject and can fuel the sandbox in a number of ways, for varying play styles to changing the focus of the game from personal interactions to larger influence games and back and forth.

I like Mage the Awakening the best by far it has far more internal constistency than MtAs. Never played Changeling the Lost but reads whizbang awesome.  Love the Blueline also it's versitile as hell. Vampire and Werewolf don't grab me but are solid games nonetheless. Promethean totally unique premise not sure how playable it is. Haven't heard anything about Mummy or Demon.

Quote from: Marleycat;595827Haven't heard anything about Mummy or Demon.

No one's heard much about Demon at this point. It'll be linked to both the God-Machine mythology and traditional demonology, but their backstory won't involve being engineered from animal stock by aliens, as implied by the "Voice of the Angel" snippet in the WoD core.

Quote from: GrimGent;595949No one's heard much about Demon at this point. It'll be linked to both the God-Machine mythology and traditional demonology, but their backstory won't involve being engineered from animal stock by aliens, as implied by the "Voice of the Angel" snippet in the WoD core.

I'll be tracking it because the God Machine is a big deal for Obrimos mages it's central to their watchtower journey so VERY interested.  If Mummy is well done like the second version count me in also.

I agree with all who said the nWoD is certainly more easy to get into, being both metaplot-free, and kinder to the initial PCs as they relate to the world.

You see, the VtM Elders and Methuselah, WtA Wyrm agents and MtAs Technocracy were always supposed to win in the end, and the games' mechanics reflected that.

So, in order to give the players more agency, the nWoD was, in my opinion, fairly successful, even if some of the themes are dry at first.

That being said, I like all of the lines, but have fewer ideas for running MtAw and Promethean...

Besides GMing VtR now, and CtL on 2011, I did a few sessions of WtF in Victorian Age London and it was a blast, for me the Pure, Hosts and Idigam are better horror antagonists than all Wyrm critters ever were.

Quote from: Bland Joe Dwarf;596002I agree with all who said the nWoD is certainly more easy to get into, being both metaplot-free, and kinder to the initial PCs as they relate to the world.

When I first launched a proper Changeling: The Lost campaign, I based it on the sample Miami set-up and simply went with the assumption that everything in the book was taking place somewhere in the background, even if all that was only vaguely hinted at during the initial scenario. (Instead, it concentrated on one PC's vengeful return from Faerie, where she'd been sold by a mob boss with occult connections in exchange for a fetch that would change her key testimony against him...) The second scenario after that was then all about overthrowing Grandfather Thunder's reign and restoring the seasons: once the dust had settled, he'd been replaced as the Summer King by a Fairest rebel leader called Revanche, which obviously shook up the political landscape of the freehold.

Maybe I am having a problem getting into the spirit of things but what I really want is:

- A nWOD monster book
- Actual modules that aren't tethered to megaplots

Both of the above with no fiction.

While I can see how making a flexible module that works with multiple nWOD games could be difficult, I think there are ways around that. For example, various human organizations machinations that can intertwine with the supernatural, porn industry capturing supernaturals to make snuff films, etc.

Ive thumbed through Antagonists and, while it does provide information on potential enemies, Id like a vast expansion ofthe simpler materials found in both the nWOD rules book and VtR.

Quote from: Lynn;596045Ive thumbed through Antagonists and, while it does provide information on potential enemies, Id like a vast expansion ofthe simpler materials found in both the nWOD rules book and VtR.

The Night Horrors series consists of antagonist books for the various lines. For VtR, those are Immortal Sinners (individual Kindred NPCs) and Wicked Dead (vampiric creatures that aren't Kindred).

At least the CtL book in the series, another collection of NPCs called Grim Fears, includes a number of entries which can rather easily be used in the other lines as well. Autumn Nightmares and Dancers in the Dusk together feature a fair amount of fae critters, but they are specifically supplements to CtL and require greater knowledge of its mechanics.

Quote from: GrimGent;596061The Night Horrors series consists of antagonist books for the various lines. For VtR, those are Immortal Sinners (individual Kindred NPCs) and Wicked Dead (vampiric creatures that aren't Kindred).

Wicked Dead sounds like it could be it. Ive never had problems coming up with my own arch enemies, but what gets me is a lack of enemies that are just street level, so to speak. Gangbangers and cops are both in the main book, but Id like to see a few more creatures like the hell hound, pcp drug fiend, etc.

Wicked Dead is right up there with Grim Fears (for C:tL) and Wolfsbane (for W:tF) as the three best Night Horrors books.

Immortal Sinners was kind of meh. The Unbidden was good, but it pales before books like Intruders, Summoners and Seers of the Throne (Awakeing has the best antagonists, I swear). I don't even know whether there was a Promethean entry for the Night Horrors series.

You can use MtAw stuff easy in the blue line.  Intruders/Summoners/Seers are insane good. Not sure about the others beyond whatever Changeling the Lost or Skinchangers and anything Hunter the Vigil has out is perfect for a baseline blueline game. Even better than some Pinnacle Deadlands import stuff I use.

While not really into any of the major nWoD game-lines, I did / do enjoy WW's attempts to flesh out other bits and bites of the horror genre; i.e. Midnight Roads (my favorite as I adore automotive focused mayhem - The Car and Duel are two of my most enjoyed films), 13th Precinct, and so on.

I've yet to catch up with their "Mirrors," stuff, though.

Quote from: The Butcher;596118I don't even know whether there was a Promethean entry for the Night Horrors series.

Nope. Out of the limited lines beyond the Big Three, Changeling was the only one to get an NH book, presumably because of its popularity which also earned the additional Dusk and Dawn supplements after the line was already supposed to be finished. As I recall, there are Geist and Promethean fan projects which try to fix that, though.

Quote from: GrimGent;596227Nope. Out of the limited lines beyond the Big Three, Changeling was the only one to get an NH book, presumably because of its popularity which also earned the additional Dusk and Dawn supplements after the line was already supposed to be finished. As I recall, there are Geist and Promethean fan projects which try to fix that, though.

Pity.

I wasn't really aware of the project when it was announced and I remember my elated surprise when I started reading Grim Fears. Man... that's some crazy epic stuff in that book.

So, the first concrete playtest snippet about Demon turned up here (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?679231-NWoD-Demon-How-an-Angel-Dies) instead of any Onyx Path/White Wolf blog. They are definitely dropping more solid tidbits than we had about Mummy at this point, quite possibly because people complained about the lack of teaser information on it even during the actual Kickstarter.

For instance, we know that demons (rogue servitors of a metaphysical machinery which maintains the world's order) are defined by Incarnation (the original function for which they were designed), Catalyst (the event which made them abandon that intended purpose: system-wise this is actually analogous to kiths from Changeling rather than a separate splat), and Agenda (what their plans are now after breaking away from the God-Machine's plans). Even though the game uses the terminology of "fallen angels", really they seem more like rebellious AIs. For high-powered demons, the most fitting example apparently isn't so much Lucifer as Agent Smith from The Matrix.

By the way, especially the "glitches" mentioned in that thread haven't come up before.

We've got Mass: the Effecting (http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/Mass:_the_Effecting) (our merc-oriented game called Transcendence (http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/Mass_Effect_Transcendence)) and Mage: the Awakening (historical, set in 1750 New York province, called The Unforgiving (http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/18thCenturyMage)) on the go right now.

My group will also be doing some Mummy: the Curse with DaveB later in the year.

Quote from: Kiero;637257We've got Mass: the Effecting (http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/Mass:_the_Effecting) (our merc-oriented game called Transcendence (http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/Mass_Effect_Transcendence)) and Mage: the Awakening (historical, set in 1750 New York province, called The Unforgiving (http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/18thCenturyMage)) on the go right now.

I've been noticing a sudden surge of new nWoD fan projects lately, perhaps spurred by all the buzz around the increased number of planned new releases. Personally I've never tried out that sort of thing, and most of them will probably fall by the wayside once the initial enthusiasm cools down, but it's interesting to watch if any of them have the ambition of Genius, Leviathan, or Princess.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;638132I've been noticing a sudden surge of new nWoD fan projects lately, perhaps spurred by all the buzz around the increased number of planned new releases. Personally I've never tried out that sort of thing, and most of them will probably fall by the wayside once the initial enthusiasm cools down, but it's interesting to watch if any of them have the ambition of Genius, Leviathan, or Princess.

Mass: the Effecting has it's own splats (six of), power systems (three of) and rewritten equipment. Is that as ambitious as those other three?

Quote from: Kiero;638304Mass: the Effecting has it's own splats (six of), power systems (three of) and rewritten equipment. Is that as ambitious as those other three?

Well, in a different way. After all, it's an adaptation of an existing science fiction gaming property into the Storytelling System, unlike most of the other fan projects (including Genius (http://sites.google.com/site/moochava/genius), Leviathan (http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/LeviathanTempest:Main_Page), and Princess (http://sites.google.com/site/princessthehopeful)) which tend to be conceived as new lines for the World of Darkness. (And those three in particular have had years of development arguments behind them by now.)

I'm all for DIY gaming but so far, none of the fan-made projects (some of which, as mentioned, have a few years behind them already) did grab my attention.

Even within the published line, I sort of glossed over Promethean (despite Benoist's insistence that I check it out, I will. Eventually) and Geist (which does look snazzy. I did read World of Darkness: Book of the Dead and it rocks). Vampire, Werewolf, Mage and Changeling are my nWoD drugs of choice. Guess there's only so much shelf space and attention I can dedicate to WoD stuff.

Quote from: MrMephistopheles;595418Promethean and Geist just do not generate any interest to me.

For a very small group (1-3 players), Promethean is brilliant. It has a very tight theme. What it reminds me of are the earliest issues of Swamp Thing with Arcane.

Quote from: The Butcher;638451I'm all for DIY gaming but so far, none of the fan-made projects (some of which, as mentioned, have a few years behind them already) did grab my attention.

Courts, kiths, entitlements... I've come up with a fair number of those for Changeling. But working extensively on an actual new major template has never really seemed worth the effort, especially when so many of the ideas that people keep pitching could already be covered by the fae anyway.