We all know the generic functions of dragons in a game: big iconic boss monster, treasure piñata, one-monster town wrecker, well-documented apex threat for PCs to anticipate fighting, and in some interpretations a vehicle for 'cool' dialogue and a conspiracy linchpin.
But I feel that sometimes the place that dragon species occupy in many fictional universes is a little vague or poorly thought out, especially in relation to humanoids (which are often supposed to be special despite standing in the shadow of reptilian demi-gods) and the treasure hoards they accumulate for some reason.
What have been your favorite implementations of dragons as setting element, not just a game element? Non-game examples are welcome.
Dragons as transport, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragonriders_of_Pern) of course!
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;954718We all know the generic functions of dragons in a game: big iconic boss monster, treasure piñata, one-monster town wrecker, well-documented apex threat for PCs to anticipate fighting . . .
Really?
(http://dungeonsmaster.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/elmore-dragon-slayers.jpg)
Larry Elmore's art makes me want to squirt brown gravy but he absolutely fucking nails the niche of dragons in early
D&D with that. All that 'dragons as DEMI-GAWDS!' shit stunk up fantasy roleplaying later.
I like dragons as roving flying tanks. They are crazy dangerous, but can be taken down by mid-level heroes.
RuneQuest had a cool idea that there were Real Dragons who were scary gawds, but their dreams created violent, avaricious dragons who were encountered out in the world and were tough, but killable.
Rifts has a cool take on dragons, and definitely made them viable PCs.
My latest 5th ed campaign uses dragons as an anamorphic stand-in for forms of government or lack thereof. Example: An ancient white dragon annihilated the dwarf's king and government and turned their crop lands into an arctic waste. So they've been driven underground with no system for governance and no clear way of recreating society. He's basically a personification of anarchy.
Here's how we addressed them in
ZWEIHÄNDER:
QuoteNo creature has entered the mythos of different cultures
more than the legendary dragon. They are a symbol of might,
intelligence and worship... or at least they once were.
Dragons used to rule the land, sentient and highly intelligent
creatures who would ravage farmlands and destroy entire
cities when their wrath was piqued. They were massive
reptilian creatures, born aloft on leathery wings and being
lined with scales as hard as steel. In the early ages, they were
considered to be the de facto rulers of all they surveyed, worshipped
by frightful mortals who sacrificed virginal maidens
at the mouths of their great lairs. However, legends tell
of a powerful warrior-princess who banished the mightiest
of dragons, slaying its brood and casting the rest into the
deep darkness of the Abyss. Within the endless pit, over the
ages the dragons slowly mutated and lost their intelligence,
turning into little more than pure killing machines. Most of
these new Pit Dragons are thankfully stuck within the confines
of the Abyss, but an unlucky Æthereal breach can cause
one to return to the Material Realm once again.
Pit Dragons are terribly vile and lustful brutes - their main
weapon either being their rending claws or their trademark
breath of flames and bile. Note that not all Pit Dragons are
the same - some may be born aloft on feathered wings or
Magickal energies, while other may breathe toxic miasma or
even biting frost. Many myths abound about Pit Dragons,
the most common being their tendency to hoard treasure in
their lair. This is true to an extent - Pit Dragon nests tend to
be full of tarnished metal, broken coins and shattered jewels,
but that is only because the Pit Dragon cannot digest
these items as they once did, meaning that most of them
were probably vomited back up. Though the energies of the
Abyss have made them feral, every once in a while a gleam
of their former intellect shines through. Some Pit Dragons
have been said to have moments of complete lucidity before
descending back into snarling beastdom.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;954734Larry Elmore's art makes me want to squirt brown gravy but he absolutely fucking nails the niche of dragons in early D&D with that. All that 'dragons as DEMI-GAWDS!' shit stunk up fantasy roleplaying later.
Yeah, really. You're woefully ignorant about the history of Dragons as a mythological beast if you think that stupid Elmore picture is actually representative of what Dragons were. Hell, if anything, D&D pussified them, by allowing small teams of puny humans to be able to hurt one of them. All the legends, myths, lies and stories about them, natural disasters blamed on them because the average human being a mere 400 years ago was still a superstitious coward with no inkling of how the basics of physics worked (and it's the AVERAGE HUMAN BEING here, not the scholars I'm talking about and even they had weird ideas that we've managed to debunk.) They all have one thing in common, Dragons were thought to be unstoppable raging engines of destruction that only armies or the greatest of heroes could defeat, and a lot of the time, they needed help to do so.
We can ever pick a more recent tale, one that a lot of people still consider relevant: The Hobbit, and the Dragon, Smaug. Not some mere tiny thing with a box of of treasure, this beast decided that he wanted a Dwarven home and all the treasure in it for himself. And NOTHING stopped him from taking it.
Dragons have always been seen as big, nasty and nearly impossible to defeat.
Go read, it might do you some good.
The great picture by Elmore is from the 2e PHB I believe. And 2e is where dragons got a HUGE boost in power, making them and giants among the most powerful monsters on the Prime Material Plane.
I always liked that conception of dragons as it seems to fit the myth of dragons as the most fearsome monsters around well. Previously they felt underpowered against a party although I guess that could be argued to be in line with the sole knight killing a dragon myths.
One of my fondest memories of 2e was an epic fight against a dragon, think it was a huge ancient red one, that ended with only the paladin surviving and managing just, but just to kill it. The rest of the party died suddenly in the last few rounds.
I've imported some of 2e's rules about spellcasting, magic resistance and very high armor class into 5e for that reason. Haven't had a real knock down drag out fight with one yet though (just the appearence of the green dragon in Lost Mine of Phandelver but the party was smart enough to avoid that fight).
I think it was in Council of Wyrms for 2e that they had some cool details about the lifecycle of a dragon and its relationship to its treasure that I really liked and want to steal.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;954791We can ever pick a more recent tale, one that a lot of people still consider relevant: The Hobbit, and the Dragon, Smaug. Not some mere tiny thing with a box of of treasure, this beast decided that he wanted a Dwarven home and all the treasure in it for himself. And NOTHING stopped him from taking it.
Can someone remind me why Smaug sat on treasure all day?
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;954828Can someone remind me why Smaug sat on treasure all day?
Because he's a dragon. The dragons in old Germanic tales often did the same (Beowulf for instance)
I think the best detailed RPG description of dragons that I have seen is in the Scandinavian Dragons & Demons (Drakar och Demoner) Monster Book (I have the Danish version). The powers of the dragon relates directly to its age: young dragons are dangerous but relatively manageable, but old dragons can wreak serious havoc, and an ancient dragon is a one-individual superpower. There's lots of other good info in there too.
I've read that Dave Arneson's Adventures in Fantasy had a really good dragon generator.
Chinese dragons have interesting roles in the world, affecting the weather and so on. Various types and personalities and effects. Worth a look.
Quote from: Trond;954829Because he's a dragon.
So no reason, no magical, mythical, spiritual, psychological or ecological justification appeared at any point in Tolkien's work? Not even a single sentence? I can understand that in old Germanic tales of course, but I'm a bit surprised regarding the Hobbit.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;954791You're woefully ignorant about the history of Dragons as a mythological beast if you think that stupid Elmore picture is actually representative of what Dragons were.
You are so fucking stupid (https://www.google.com/search?q=st+george+and+the+dragon&safe=strict&espv=2&biw=1920&bih=988&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjdvMjG8IPTAhWEULwKHW38B1QQ_AUIBigB).
I quite like the implementation of Dragons in Cakebread and Walton's Pirates & Dragons. Dragons used to rule an empire and be worshiped as gods, then the fought a war (with the ancient Adalantans) and lost. Now they are exiled to the Dragon Isles (the not-Carribean of the game's setting).
Youngling dragons squabble, fight, and jockey for position on the less desirable islands. They are possesed of only rudimentary intelligence, have no magic and cannot fully mature until they displace one of the Great Dragons from its home.
The Great Dragons are intelligent, many have magic, rule tribes of islanders who worship and serve them and often have undead servants as well. Each has its own unique personality and foibles. Some are able to change shape into human form as well. The dragons gain their power by subduing the spirits of the islands they inhabit and bending them to their will. Great dragons will occasionally mate and lay eggs, but otherwise do not seem to have sexes or genders relating to anything beyond the personality of the dragon.
All in all it makes the dragons unique creatures, while following much of the common lore about big, flying, fire-breathing, gold-hoarding, magical lizards.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;954791Dragons have always been seen as big, nasty and nearly impossible to defeat.
Really? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_George_and_the_Dragon) Dragon size and ability has always been all over the map literally and figuratively.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;954791Go read, it might do you some good.
Physician, heal thyself.
Quote from: Trond;954829Because he's a dragon. The dragons in old Germanic tales often did the same (Beowulf for instance)
Smaug basically is the Beowulf dragon, because The Hobbit is an inverted retelling of Beowulf itself.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;954851So no reason, no magical, mythical, spiritual, psychological or ecological justification appeared at any point in Tolkien's work? Not even a single sentence? I can understand that in old Germanic tales of course, but I'm a bit surprised regarding the Hobbit.
The dragons are, like they are in Beowulf, the physical embodiment of Greed and Selfishness, anathema to both the Pagan Anglo-Saxon mind, with its emphasis on gift-giving and hospitality, as well as early Christianity.
Specifically, they were later expanded and defined to be monstrous reptiles bred by Morgoth in the First Age and corrupted and invested with his evil spirit, transformed much like the great werewolves were. Without being under Morgoth's control to be used in battle, and left to their own devices, they would concern themselves most with staying alive, as well as amassing huge amounts of wealth as a way to satisfy their greed and prove their power. After taking the Lonely Mountain, the only thing that might have been better would be Moria itself, but doing battle with the Balrog probably wasn't high on Smaug's to-do list considering what he had attained at Erebor.
CF also Fafnir vis Smaug. Tolkien was cribbing so much from folklore and legend for the Hobbit he probably felt it wasn't needed to "justify" Smaug.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;954865You are so fucking stupid (https://www.google.com/search?q=st+george+and+the+dragon&safe=strict&espv=2&biw=1920&bih=988&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjdvMjG8IPTAhWEULwKHW38B1QQ_AUIBigB).
Quote from: CRKrueger;954904Really? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_George_and_the_Dragon) Dragon size and ability has always been all over the map literally and figuratively.
It's nice that you can do internet searches, so there's a step up in my expectations of you, but you're still wrong.
Simply because according to legend, it took FOUR OX CARTS to carry the bits of slain dragon after St. George killed it, who by the way, was NOT a normal man, he was a SAINT, which meant he would be far above the average man, out of the town.
Game try, but you're still wrong, especially since the ancient artists renditions get the size of the dragon wrong. Ox carts might not be huge, but they're two wheeled square conveyances, designed to carry a lot of mass.
And finally, the dragon lived in a lake and CAUSES A PLAGUE! That's some substantial power.
Would you two like to try that again?
Quote from: Christopher Brady;954982It's nice that you can do internet searches, so there's a step up in my expectations of you, but you're still wrong.
Simply because according to legend, it took FOUR OX CARTS to carry the bits of slain dragon after St. George killed it, who by the way, was NOT a normal man, he was a SAINT, which meant he would be far above the average man, out of the town.
Game try, but you're still wrong, especially since the ancient artists renditions get the size of the dragon wrong. Ox carts might not be huge, but they're two wheeled square conveyances, designed to carry a lot of mass.
And finally, the dragon lived in a lake and CAUSES A PLAGUE! That's some substantial power.
Would you two like to try that again?
Not sure anyone (except you apparently) would call the Tropical Rat Flea powerful, but they've killed hundreds of millions of people through plague. You know, that's kind of the selling point of killing people with disease and poison...it takes no actual strength or power at all. ;)
Do some research yourself. Slavic dragons are not Chinese Dragons, African Dragons are not Norse Dragons. Many dragon legends are tied directly to dinosaur fossils, large snakes and crocodiles, not "and when the dragon fell to earth, his bones made the mountains." What is a dragon? Does it have wings, can it fly, does it have legs, can it breathe fire or something else, does it have a tail, can it talk, is it physical or a spirit? Ask people from 20 different cultures, you'll get 40 different answers.
For me, there's another reason D&D dragons should be kill targets at mid-level...'cuz its called Dungeons & Dragons. There's a built in expectation FOR ME that my D&D experience should involve a copious amount of those two aspects. Kinda like my expectations for Runequest and Shadowrun.
Thus, I am always good for the existence of different tiers of dragons.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;954718What have been your favorite implementations of dragons as setting element, not just a game element? Non-game examples are welcome.
First off how Dragon depicted vary wildly in real world mythology. There are a bewildering variety of large reptilian beasts in myth and legend that could be classified as Dragons. So there is no "right" answer for a given campaign. Only the answer the referee thinks is right for his setting.
D&D take on dragon is works well for a lot of referee and I have no complaints about it other than the fact that for AD&D Dragons seemed less than epic unless they are of the highest age category. Over time for the Majestic Wilderlands I altered dragons in various ways to make them more mysterious, more epic. PCs can take them on especially with good planning but overall I feel my take is much more mythic than D&D's take.
I will give a gold star to D&D 5th edition their Dragons. The addition of lair actions I think really make the most powerful dragon something to be truly feared and a epic challenge for any PC group.
This is my take on Dragons
QuoteThe god Set created the dragons as elite shock forces against the Demons during the Uttermost War. After the war the Demons were imprisoned in the Abyss. A ward was placed around the entrance to bar them from returning to the Wilderlands. The ward was comprised of crystals placed in several towers around the entranceway. The Dragons were charged to act as guardians and to protect them against any outsiders.
After a thousand years some Dragons began to be bored of this duty and yearned for the freedom of the Wilderlands. When the Black Lord arrived seeking aid in the Crystal Wars these dragons eagerly agreed to join him. For betraying their duty these dragon became known as the Black Dragons. After arriving in the Wilderlands some of the Black Dragons chafed at aiding the Black Lord. They instead left to make their own way. These Dragons became known as the Copper Dragons.
The remaining dragons resolved that the Black Dragons betrayal shall not go unpunished. They sent out a small contingent of loyal Dragons to aid the Black Lord's foes and to bring the Black Dragons to justice. They adopted silver as their color. When the Crystal Wars ended with the destruction of the Black Lord, the Black Dragons scattered. Some of the loyal Dragons were changed by the war. They became obsessed, believing that any means was acceptable in hunting down the Black Dragons. These Dragons changed their color to Blue.
The dragons that remained behind to guard the towers adopted Gold as their color and still await the return of their brethren.
Dragons are reptilian with four limbs, tails, and wings folded into their front limbs. Their hide is made of scales and is one of the toughest substances known in the Wilderlands.
Dragons have the ability to breathe fire, and change the color of their hides. They do not speak as normal people do but instead use telepathy to speak mind to mind.
A Dragon sense of time/sense is very different. They know their ends as well as their beginnings. They perceive time as one moment. This ability doesn't extend to the mortal races, including Elves, only to themselves. It is for this reason that Dragons will actively involve mortals in their plans. It is only through mortal action that a Dragon's fate can be altered.
A Dragon is extremely confident of himself and his position in the world. They believe that they are the highest form of creation and view other races as children or with contempt. A few dragons, notably the Silver Dragons, have come to understand the ability of mortal races to alter their fate and actively involve themselves with mortals.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;954791Yeah, really. You're woefully ignorant about the history of Dragons as a mythological beast if you think that stupid Elmore picture is actually representative of what Dragons were. Hell, if anything, D&D pussified them, by allowing small teams of puny humans to be able to hurt one of them. ........
Quote from: Black Vulmea;954865You are so fucking stupid (https://www.google.com/search?q=st+george+and+the+dragon&safe=strict&espv=2&biw=1920&bih=988&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjdvMjG8IPTAhWEULwKHW38B1QQ_AUIBigB).
"Arrgh! How stupid are you guys? Don't you know that dragons are medium size? This proves that you both are inbred and stink like piss and poop!"
Quote from: Spinachcat;954995For me, there's another reason D&D dragons should be kill targets at mid-level...'cuz its called Dungeons & Dragons. There's a built in expectation FOR ME that my D&D experience should involve a copious amount of those two aspects. Kinda like my expectations for Runequest and Shadowrun.
Huh, well hmm yeah I do expect someone will trip on a dead body at some point when playing The Fantasy Trip.
Quote from: Spinachcat;954995For me, there's another reason D&D dragons should be kill targets at mid-level...'cuz its called Dungeons & Dragons. There's a built in expectation FOR ME that my D&D experience should involve a copious amount of those two aspects. Kinda like my expectations for Runequest and Shadowrun.
Thus, I am always good for the existence of different tiers of dragons.
Related question: how has the apparent prevalence of demons as the 'go-to adversary' for numerous stretches of the game's history, as opposed to dragons, affected the game?
In 1e, many dragons were Large creatures, and even encountered in pairs. Thus, they could be found in dungeons. It wasn't impossible to imagine a 20 foot long dragon maneuvering through 10ft wide corridors. In 2e and beyond, most dragons were Huge creatures and beyond, and thus not really dungeon monsters anymore.
Meanwhile, demons are Medium or Large, and perfect for dungeons.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;954982It's nice that you can do internet searches, so there's a step up in my expectations of you, but you're still wrong.
Simply because according to legend, it took FOUR OX CARTS to carry the bits of slain dragon after St. George killed it, who by the way, was NOT a normal man, he was a SAINT, which meant he would be far above the average man, out of the town.
Game try, but you're still wrong, especially since the ancient artists renditions get the size of the dragon wrong. Ox carts might not be huge, but they're two wheeled square conveyances, designed to carry a lot of mass.
And finally, the dragon lived in a lake and CAUSES A PLAGUE! That's some substantial power.
Would you two like to try that again?
That moment when you realize someone online obviously faps to pictures of dragons....
According to Terry Pratchett, who sold 70 million books -- and I suspect those books were read -- the common "swamp" dragon is about 2 feet long and is prone to indigestion.
Variety in size and power is nice, especially in a game.
Quote from: saskganesh;955163According to Terry Pratchett, who sold 70 million books -- and I suspect those books were read -- the common "swamp" dragon is about 2 feet long and is prone to indigestion.
Variety in size and power is nice, especially in a game.
They are also prized pets for noble women. You could even win a competition with your dragon, especially if it's parents were also winning, which you no doubt have the required documents to prove.
Just, for the sake of whatever you believe in, don't let them eat anything they want...:D
Indeed. They tend to explode then.
Or worse, they grow bigger and hotter;).
Quote from: Tristram Evans;955149That moment when you realize someone online obviously faps to pictures of dragons....
"Spit acid, Great Wyrm!" *
fapfapfapfapfap*
Quote from: Tristram Evans;955149That moment when you realize someone online obviously faps to pictures of dragons....
Yikes.
Vermithrax from
Dragonslayer was scary enough and she was 40' long. The Night Scather from
Beowulf was 50' and was a real terror for the mightiest hero of that age. Smaug is depicted at somewhere between 60' and 80', depending on which Tolkien sketch you want to go by, and he was an iconic dragon and villain. The really huge Godzilla-style dragons always struck me as silly. While I'm not one for fiddling with a detailed ecology for a fanciful creature, I do find it odd that humans would have much to worry about from such a gargantuan creature unless they somehow provoked the beast. If you're a mouse, you have plenty to fear from cats, owls, snakes and other small predators and little to nothing to fear from a tiger. If anything, you'd be glad to have a tiger nearby because it will kill or drive off the smaller predators that
do regard you as lunch. The "small" dragons like Vermithrax and her hatchlings are scarier because they are the right size to make regular meals of humans and livestock, making them a far bigger menace than something bigger than a 747, which would need elephants or whales to feed itself and its offspring.
Dragonwank sucks.
Quote from: Elfdart;957508The "small" dragons like Vermithrax and her hatchlings are scarier because they are the right size to make regular meals of humans and livestock, making them a far bigger menace than something bigger than a 747, which would need elephants or whales to feed itself and its offspring.
An excellent point, and a good example of the frustration that started this thread: the trend these days is to make dragons just another part of the ecology, but it often feels half-baked. I wouldn't mind a less-scientific, more fantastic explanation for their presence, but that often feels half-baked too. As I think about my current setting project, I wonder what approach to take.
For my Dragonlance send-up, tentatively named Grimdark Dragonthing, I decided dragons were created as living weapons by the otherwordly, all-conquering serpent folk (think the kaiju in Pacific Rim). This is why they were color-coded for convenience.
While dragons were created initially as dumb beasts, in time (when their empire collapsed) some serpent folk downloaded their extraordinary, magic-adept intelligence into dragon bodies built to support speech and sorcery. This is why some dragons speak and cast spells, and some don't.
Of course, as their dominion crumbled and survivors grasped at the last straws of power, a cadre of particularly crafty serpent folk sorcerer-scientists created (or maybe just unearthed) the ultimate control mechanism for their biological flying tanks, including those piloted by the consciousness of their rogue comrades; the orbs of dragonkind.
The nascent human empires beat back the serpent folk and their dragons, at the cost of countless lives. Surviving dragons sought refuge in the desolated wilderness, typically in the terrains and climates they were specifically designed to operate on. But every now and then the orbs resurface at the hands of some would-be conqueror or doomsday cultist.
Quote from: The Butcher;957527. . . Grimdark Dragonthing . . .
(http://www.gifimagesdownload.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/new-lol-gifs.gif)
Quote from: The Butcher;957527For my Dragonlance send-up, tentatively named Grimdark Dragonthing, I decided dragons were created as living weapons by the otherwordly, all-conquering serpent folk (think the kaiju in Pacific Rim). This is why they were color-coded for convenience.
I rather like this whole premise.
So, an oddball thought I had the first time I watched "How to Train Your Dragon" in the scene where all the dragons bring something to dump into their nest which is a huge volcano:
I immediately thought that Dragons gain their fire-breathing from some relationship with that Volcano, channeling the power of the volcano via regular offerings/sacrifice.
Of course, that's not at all what it turns out to be in the film, but I really liked the idea at the time. I think it is worth exploring in a special setting:
Dragons are flying lizards who get their fire-breathing abilities from a Greater Power that they respect, whether through reasoning, tradition, or even instinct (if they are just brutish creatures rather than the sentient beings that are often depicted).
The film, Dragonslayer is a great inspiration for how fierce and devastating a dragon can be, and how important your weapon and armor might be as well!
Finally, I love the concept of Dragons having to rest before brewing another devastating fire or acid, which is described in the Elric stories by Michael Moorcock.
Quote from: Elfdart;957508Dragonwank sucks.
Well, yes. But the real question is... Do they swallow?
Quote from: Black Vulmea;957536(http://www.gifimagesdownload.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/new-lol-gifs.gif)
Hey, he said it was a working title!
In Dark Albion, Dragons are hugely important, even though they appear to be all but extinct. Along with Elves, they were the other most ancient race. In the long-term Albion campaign, assuming a DM wants to follow with it, the resolution of the campaign involves the reappearance of Dragons.
Quote from: RPGPundit;958730In Dark Albion, Dragons are hugely important, even though they appear to be all but extinct. Along with Elves, they were the other most ancient race. In the long-term Albion campaign, assuming a DM wants to follow with it, the resolution of the campaign involves the reappearance of Dragons.
You doing anything with the Red and White dragons of Welsh myth or a celtic/druidic Earth Dragon (which they tried to show in Excalibur)?
Quote from: CRKrueger;958737You doing anything with the Red and White dragons of Welsh myth or a celtic/druidic Earth Dragon (which they tried to show in Excalibur)?
A little of both, but particularly with Henry Tudor, claiming descent from Welsh royal blood and bearing the standard of the red dragon to battle with him.