TheRPGSite

by Bill Seligman

What?? I hear you scream. Impossible, you cry; Gandalf was at least 30th, 40th, even 50th level!! After all, he was an Istari, and he had lived at least 2000 years! Oh, really?, I reply. Let us take a look at all the magic he ever performed, and see what was so high level about him.

First, let us leaf through the Hobbit. In order, Gandalf's spells were: 1) To make fancy colored smoke rings and have them fly about the room. This is no more than a variant on Pyrotechnics, with perhaps a bit of Phantasmal Force mixed in. 2) Tricking the trolls with Ventriloquism, a first level spell. 3) Lightning Bolts from his staff to kill the Orcs as they kidnapped the Dwarves and Bilbo. Third level spell. 4) Pyrotechnics to confuse the Orcs to rescue the Dwarves and Bilbo. Second level spell. 5) Lighting the way for the Dwarves and Bilbo while in the caves, with a glow from his staff. Second level spell. 6) Making pine cones catch fire and tossing them down upon the Wargs from a tree. A variant on Fireball, Pyrotechnics, and even the Druid spell Produce Flame. It is not specifically a spell mentioned on the D&D lists, but it is not terribly powerful all the same. 7) Tossing Sauron out of Dol Gul-dur. He did this in combination with the White Council, and so this does not count as an individual effort. (Besides, as I shall later show, Sauron was no more, or not much more, than 7th or 8th level.) 8) A combination of either Lightning Bolt or Light from his staff to warn the "good" side of the Battle Of Five Armies to get together, as you wish. Depending on the spell system you use, you may be able to change these figures by a level or two, but so far Gandalf has shown no abilities above 5th level.

Now, let us go to The Fellowship of The Ring. 1) His fireworks display at Bilbo's party: again, assuming they were magical, which does not have to be true, a variant on Phantasmal Forces, Pyrotechnics, etc. No more than second level. 2) Lightning Bolt battle with the Nazgul. Third level spells. (All right, if you wish to call the taming of Shadow-fax magical, O.K. After the episode at the gates of Moria, there is no reason why Gandalf could not speak Equine, but a "Charm Animal" spell would be easier than Charm Person anyway.) 3) Adding fighters to the foam of the river that was overflowing the Nazgul. Phantasmal Force, perhaps a variant on Monster Summoning I (since we have not a hint as to the level of these fighters). 4) Lighting a fire in the middle of the snowstorm. A touch of Fireball, or even Produce Flame. (Note here Gandalf reveals how even this simple bit of magic can be detected for such a large distance. This shows the magical "weakness" of Tolkien's Middle Earth. Ah ha, you say, I see where you are wrong! Hold on, I'll come to that point later.) To continue: 5) the flames when fighting the Wargs. Variant on Fireball, 3rd level. 6) Lighting the way in Moria. 1st level spell. 7) Fighting the Balrog. In his description of the battle, it seems to me he used only, or mostly, Lightning Bolts, with perhaps some Fireballs if you are generous. Still only third level. 8) Being resurrected. But this is not done by Gandalf, he was "sent back"back" and therefore had nothing himself to do with the feat.

On to The Two Towers: 1) The bursting into flame of Legolas' arrow. A mild Fireball, perhaps even an unusual form of Protection from Normal Missiles. 2) The awakening of Theoden. A combination of Lightning, Light, and Darkness. No more than 3rd level. 3) The breaking of Saruman's staff. This could have been a natural result of one Istari saying that to another, a mild Charm Person effect, or something of that nature. It is not spectacular enough, in any case, to go beyond third level spell-casting.

And now, The Return of The King: 1) The beams of light used to rescue Faramir. No more powerful than Lightning Bolt, for all the effect they had. They could have been the 3rd level spell Firebeam described in, I believe, Alarums and Excursions #12. 2) In the Battle of Slag Hills, when Gandalf should perhaps have used the maximum amount of his powers, he did nothing mentioned in the book. Perhaps he used Lightning Bolt of Fireball/-beam, but still this is no higher than 3rd level spells. 3) Talking mind-to-mind with Elrond and Galadriel. You don't need any more than ESP to make this work.

And that is it. If I have left any spells out, like Gandalf using the
Hold Portal or Wizard Lock in Moria, it is not intentional. But I do not think that they would go beyond 3rd level. If the words I have used such as "variant" make you think that he must have been at least 11th level to research the spells, remember that he had his Staff, and the ring Narya the Great, which was associated with fire-type spells anyway. Since he was forced to use them several times, when, as I have shown, a 5th level mage did not need them, perhaps he was even less than 5th level, but I shall not try to press my point too far. If you ask how he lasted so long battling a Balrog, I reply that that is a fault with the D&D combat system, so the point that a 5th level mage could not withstand the blows of the 10th level Balrog does not quite hold water. (I am referring only to the Balrog in D&D, not including the Eldritch Wizardry characteristics, as this type of Balrog is usually said to be too weak for a true Tolkien Balrog. In fact, when placed in perspective with Gandalf's battle with one, the Balrog described by Gygax and Arneson originally was of normal strength. As far as I am concerned, the type VI demon is a type VI demon, not a Balrog.) As for Sauron: without going to too much detail, Clairvoyance, ESP, and perhaps an advanced Wizard's Eye, with much longer ranges than described in D&D. But since he had the Palantir, maybe he let the thing do most of the work for him, and his "Red Eye". If you are going to be nasty, then let him have Control Weather, which makes him 12th level. Still not spectacular, when there are those who regard Sau-ron as 75th level or so.

So how do we reconcile our intuition with the bare facts? Well, for one thing, as I hinted above, the universe of LOTR was magic-weak. It is easy to assume that it was run by " a very tough DM" who rewarded experience so slowly that it would take 2000 years for a pseudo-angel to get to the 5th level, and 6000 years or so for an EHP to reach 12th. But it is still unsettling. I would rather place the blame on the scale we are using: the D&D magic system. It seems a more likely thing for Gygax and Arneson to misjudge the spell levels. So what can we do? Change the spell system, the experience system or the levels of the spells, or all of the above? What is your response?

Well, not to rein on anyones parade, but my response is *yawn*

Rein? Au contraire, it's finally summertime in the Bay Area.

I've heard that the Gandalf Issue will finally be solved in 4E.

An oldie but a goodie.

Still my alltime favorite Dragon piece, narrowly edging out "Believe it or not, Fantasy has reality" and "Orgies, Inc."

Quote from: joewolzAn oldie but a goodie.

Yeah, the "type VI demon" kind of gives it away...

I hate this argument and the "nerds know best" assumptions it makes with fiery murderous passion. :mad:

Considering how magic poor Middle Earth is (compared to any of the published D&D settings) I don't see a problem with your logic. If you consider his Istar (sp) status a few of the listed spells might even be inherent abilities (the light spells for instance).

Quote from: ghost ratI hate this argument and the "nerds know best" assumptions it makes with fiery murderous passion. :mad:

It was just a bit of fun, an attempt to puncture the power gaming assumptions of the day.

I wouldn't read too much into it.

Yeah, in context it was a response to a lot of over-the-top nonsense.  Not that I'm against over-the-top nonsense, mind you.

I firmly believe in playing a fifth-level mage with the ass-kicking "I know the secrets of eternity" attitude of Gandalf.

But then, I firmly believe in playing a first-level mage with that same confidence.  "Check-it-out!  I can kill a guy by THINKING AT HIM.  What do you mean it's only once a day?  BY THINKING!  Better recognize, or tomorrow's gonna be a real thoughtful day for you!"

See, I'd wait until 2nd level to think I was hot shit, because at that point I could burning hands some fools and charm the barmaid on the same day.

Quote from: DrewIt was just a bit of fun, an attempt to puncture the power gaming assumptions of the day.

I wouldn't read too much into it.

Yeah, I guess I have a residual sore spot about piss-weak wizards from past DMs.

Quote from: jrientsSee, I'd wait until 2nd level to think I was hot shit, because at that point I could burning hands some fools and charm the barmaid on the same day.

See, I'd be all Burning Hands with the barmaid and Charming the fools...

Wait! Would that be Sweating Hands?

-clash

Quote from: Calithenaby Bill Seligman ...

Perhaps this is just to show that a truly Great Wizard is judicious in their spell usage?   A conservation of energy strategy perhaps?   I mean there is nothing to say that he *couldn't* have cast more powerful spells.  

Besides according to this:

Gandalf Definition (http://www.glyphweb.com/Arda/default.asp?url=http://www.glyphweb.com/Arda/g/gandalf.html)

Gandalf was a Maiar, the lesser powerful Ainur, who were the most powerful beings in the Tolkien Universe.  So there is no way that he was a measly 5th Level.   He was 6th Level!!!   Sheesh.   Pikers.

Quote from: jrientsSee, I'd wait until 2nd level to think I was hot shit, because at that point I could burning hands some fools and charm the barmaid on the same day.

Heh.  Some of us don't need a spell for that latter bit.  People just think it's magic :D

Did Gandalf ever get laid?

 Go dancing with Tavern Wenches?

 Not that I remember.

SO, why would I ever want to play a mage like Gandalf?  Hell, at least Aragorn and Samwise get married when the whole thing is done.  Racial differences put aside - I think Sam got the better looking wife of the two ladies.

Frodo? Never left his uncle's basement .,..um I mean house before that big adventure.

 So yeah Lord of the Rings is a nice read and all - but its mostly  fun when you're still in Junior High or early High School.

 Original D&D may have been inspired by LOTR , but it went o9r strayed a different direction.

Still, the movies are fun.


- Ed C.

I always got a strong impression that Gandalf was far more powerful than he necessarily let on, but chose to limit his usage of power.

I mean, for fuck's sake, the guy survived hand to hand combat with a damn balrog for crying out loud.

I'd be willing to bet Gandalf was the Shaft/Sam Jackson/Alaganza Mack of middle Earth. He was up to his knees in hobbit pussy!

Y'know, here's something I posted to this very site over a year ago...

Quote from: me, some time ago, a reposting of an even older articleThe article below which is the meat of this particular post is the last thing I wrote and had posted to the Middle-earth d20 site at EN World. Again, it used 3.0 rules, but I don't think that matters too much in this case (Aragorn's "Wilderness Lore" would now be "Survival," that kind of thing).

Anyway:

Was Gandalf Only A Fifth Level Character?
In the March 1977 issue of Dragon Magazine (called then The Dragon) was an article by Bill Seligman entitled Gandalf Was Only A Fifth Level Magic-User. Seligman presented examples from the text of The Lord of the Rings to argue his case, and he did a pretty good job of it. Although D&D Third Edition/d20 is a bit of a different game than D&D circa 1977, much of his argument holds true for the latest edition of the game. Matter of fact, Seligman's article sounds very much like similar discussions going on today, especially on internet message boards.

Seligman asserts that Gandalf need not have been more then 5th level to do any of the things he did in the book. He also asserts that Sauron himself need not have been any higher than 7th or 8th level, possibly 12th at the highest. Although the argument regarding Sauron was, and is, not especially strong - Seligman's article concedes that some of the ranges for the divination spells Sauron used would have been beyond those in D&D, and Sauron's apparent control of Mount Doom's erupting is beyond even many Epic Level spells - I thought it might be interesting to include the Dark Lord in this exercise. One could rationalize, perhaps, that Sauron did not actually control Mount Doom, but could divine when it was going to erupt, and planned accordingly. In any event, I made Sauron 8th level, just to illustrate the point.

I decided to include the entire Fellowship in this, using Gandalf as the upper-level benchmark. In any cases where his spell list includes divine spells, they work the same, but are considered arcane spells for Gandalf. His spells were chosen according to Seligman's article and my own reading of Lord of the Rings, and should accomodate just about anything he did, especially if one considers that he could have altered the appearance of his spell effects. That is, the white bolts he apparently shoots at the Nazgul when rescuing Faramir could easily use the stats for Lightning Bolt (of course, the "bolts" he "shoots" may actually have been just the reflection of light off Narya as he turned the Nazgul as a cleric, but that's another article...)

By the way, if Mr. Seligman, or anyone who knows him, is reading this, I hope he drops us a line. It'd be interesting to hear what he thinks now.

Note: I didn't repeat information from any of the Core Books that weren't really necessary to repeat; virtual feats gained due to belonging to certain classes, detailed breakdown of racial qualities, etc.


Gandalf the Grey

Male Istar Wiz5; Medium; HD 5d4+10 (Wizard); hp 25; Init +1; Spd 30; AC 14; Atk +2 base melee, +3 base ranged; +4 (1d8+2, +2 Longsword); AL LG; SV Fort +3, Ref +2, Will +10; STR 11, DEX 12, CON 14, INT 16, WIS 18, CHA 14.

Skills: Alchemy (fireworks) +11, Concentration +10, Gather Information +3, Knowledge (Middle-earth arcana) +11, Knowledge (Middle-earth History) +11, Knowledge (Local (the Shire)) +8, Knowledge (Nobility (Free Peoples)) +8, Knowledge (Politics (Western Middle-earth) +7, Spellcraft +11

Feats: Iron Will, Martial Weapon Proficiency: Longsword, Scribe Scroll, Spell Mastery (3), Spell Mastery(3)

Possessions: Staff: as a staff of Fire (Charges: 50); Ring: Narya (Combines the effects of a ring of Elemental Resistance (Major), and a Necklace of prayer beads (blessing)); Robes act as a Cloak of resistance (+1), and also confer +3 AC; Glamdring (+2 longsword, glows blue in the presence of orcs); Traveler's Outfit

Spells Known:

0 -- Arcane Mark, Dancing Lights, Daze, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Disrupt Undead, Flare, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Open/Close, Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost, Read Magic, Resistance

1st -- Burning Hands, Comprehend Languages, Detect Secret Doors, Hold Portal, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, True Strike, Ventriloquism

2nd -- Charm Person or Animal, Continual Flame, Detect Thoughts, Knock, Shatter

3rd -- Flame Arrow, Lightning Bolt

Spells Prepared on a day Gandalf expects trouble (Wiz 4/4/3/2):

0 - Detect Magic, Disrupt Undead, Flare, Read Magic

1st - Comprehend Languages, Detect Secret Doors, True Strike, Ventriloquism

2nd - Continual Flame, Detect Thoughts, Knock

3rd - Flame Arrow, Lightning Bolt.

So where are his spell books? He doesn't have, or need, any.


Aragorn

Male Human Rgr4: Medium Humanoid; HD 4d10+16 (Ranger); hp 39; Init +6; Spd 30; AC 12; Atk +5 base melee, +6 base ranged; AL LG; SV Fort +8, Ref +3, Will +6; STR 13, DEX 15, CON 18, INT 13, WIS 17, CHA 15.

Skills: Concentration +5, Heal +9, Intuit Direction +4, Knowledge (Middle-earth History) +2, Knowledge (nature) +5, Knowledge (Middle-earth Nobility) +2, Listen +7, Move Silently +5, Ride +4, Search +3, Speak Language (Quenya) +1, Spot +7, Wilderness Lore +9

Favored Enemy: Orc

Feats: Alertness, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Track

Spells Known (Rgr --/1):

1st - Alarm, Animal Friendship, Delay Poison, Detect Animals or Plants, Detect Snares and Pits, Entangle, Magic Fang, Pass without Trace, Read Magic, Resist Elements, Speak with Animals, Summon Nature's Ally I.

Spells Prepared (Rgr --/1):

1st - Pass without Trace.

Possessions: Ranger pin (Amulet of natural armor (+2)); Ring of Barahir (ring of Protection +2); shards of Narsil; Explorer's Outfit


Boromir

Ftr3: Medium Humanoid; HD 3d10+9 (Fighter); hp 29; Init +2; Spd 30; AC 12; Atk +6 base melee, +5 base ranged; +3 (1d10+3, Sword, bastard, Masterwork); AL LG; SV Fort +6, Ref +3, Will +1; STR 17, DEX 14, CON 16, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 13.

Skills: Climb +6, Jump +6, Ride +8, Swim +4

Feats: Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Sunder.

Possessions: Horn of Gondor; Sword, bastard, Masterwork; Shields: Shield, large, steel, Masterwork


Frodo Baggins

Hobbit Ari1: Small Humanoid ; HD 1d8+1 (Aristocrat); hp 8; Init +1; Spd 20; AC 12; Atk +0 base melee, +1 (+2 with thrown weapons) base ranged; SQ: Halfling traits (Ex); AL LG; SV Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +6; STR 9, DEX 12, CON 13, INT 12, WIS 13, CHA 12.

Skills: Climb +1, Diplomacy +3, Hide +5, Jump +1, Knowledge (arcana) +2, Knowledge (History of Middle Earth) +2, Knowledge (Local (the Shire)) +5, Knowledge (Shire Gentry) +2, Knowledge (Shire Politics) +2, Listen +4, Move Silently +4, Perform (Sing) +4, Sense Motive +3, Spot +2, Wilderness Lore +2

Feats: Iron Will

Possessions: Traveler's Outfit


Sam Gamgee

Male Hobbit Com1: Small Humanoid; HD 1d4+2 (Commoner); hp 7; Init +1; Spd 20; AC 12; Atk +0 base melee, +1 (+2 with thrown weapons) base ranged; SQ: Halfling traits (Ex); AL LG; SV Fort +3, Ref +2, Will +3; STR 10, DEX 12, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 11, CHA 10

Skills: Climb +2, Handle Animal +1, Hide +5, Jump +2, Listen +2, Move Silently +3, Profession (Cook) +3, Profession (Gardener) +3, Spot +2, Use Rope +2

Feats: Iron Will

Possessions: Cooking gear; Traveler's Outfit


Merry Brandybuck

Male Hobbit Ari1: Small Humanoid; HD 1d8+1 (Aristocrat); hp: 9; Init: +1; Spd 20; AC: 12; Atk +0 base melee, +1 (+2 with thrown weapons) base ranged; SQ: Halfling traits (Ex); AL LG; Saves: Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +4; STR 10, DEX 12, CON 13, INT 11, WIS 9, CHA 12

Skills: Climb +2, Gather Information +2, Hide +5, Listen +5, Move Silently +5, Spot +3, Wilderness Lore +2

Feats: Iron Will

Possessions: Traveler's Outfit


Pippin Took

Male Hobbit Ari1: Small Humanoid; HD 1d8+1 (Aristocrat); hp 9; Init: +1; Spd 20; AC: 12; Atk +0 base melee, +1 (+2 with thrown weapons) base ranged; SQ: Halfling Traits (Ex); AL LG; Saves: Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +3; STR 11, DEX 12, CON 13, INT 11, WIS 7, CHA 12

Skills: Climb +2, Gather Information +2, Hide +5, Listen +3, Move Silently +5, Spot +2, Wilderness Lore +0

Feats: Iron Will

Possessions: Traveler's Outfit


Gimli

Male Dwarf, Hill Ftr2: Medium Humanoid ; HD 2d10+6 (Fighter); hp 22; Init +0; Spd 15; AC 15; Atk +3 base melee, +2 base ranged; +4 (1d8+1, Battleaxe); SQ: Darkvision (Ex), Dwarven traits (Ex); AL LG; SV Fort +6, Ref +0, Will +0; STR 13, DEX 10, CON 16, INT 11, WIS 11, CHA 10.

Skills: Appraise +2, Craft (Blacksmithing) +0, Craft (Metalworking) +0, Craft (Stonecarving) +2, Craft (Stonemasonry) +2, Craft (Weaponsmithing) +0, Profession (Armorsmith) +2, Profession (Blacksmith) +2, Profession (Metalworker) +2, Profession (Miner) +5, Profession (Stonemason) +2, Profession (Weaponsmith) +2

Feats: Cleave, Power Attack, Weapon Focus: Battleaxe.

Possessions: Battleaxe; Chainmail; Flint and steel.


Legolas

Male Sindar Elf, Ftr2: Medium Humanoid ; HD 2d10+2 (Fighter); hp 18; Init +4; Spd 30; AC 14; Atk +2 base melee, +6 base ranged; +3/-6 (1d8, Longbow; 1d4, Dagger); SQ: Elven traits (Ex); AL CG; SV Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +0; STR 11, DEX 18, CON 12, INT 11, WIS 11, CHA 11

Skills: Handle Animal +2, Listen +4, Search +2, Spot +4

Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus: Longbow.

Possessions: Longbow; Dagger; Arrows (20); Explorer's outfit


Sauron

Male Maia (Fallen) Necromancer8; Medium; HD 8d4+32 (Wizard); HP: 58 Init: +3; Spd: 30; AC: 14; Atk +4 base melee, +4 base ranged; Special Abilities: Acid/Cold/Electrical/Fire Resistance 20, Immune to poison; AL: Lawful Evil; SV Fort +8, Ref +7, Will +11; STR:18, DEX:17, CON:18, INT:19, WIS:17, CHA:21

Skills: Alchemy +13, Concentration +15, Craft (Gemcutting) +15, Craft (Metalworking) +15, Intimidate +10, Knowledge (Arcana) +15, Knowledge (History) +15, Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) +15, Scry +15, Spellcraft +15

Feats: Empower Spell, Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Forge Ring, Maximize Spell, Scribe Scroll

Possessions: Palantir (Crystal Ball with Telepathy); Cloak of Resistance +2

Spells Castable/Known
Wizard (0: 4+1, 1st: 5+1/ 2nd: 4+1; 3rd: 4+1; 4th: 3+1)

Known Spells:

O level: Arcane Mark, Dancing Lights, Daze, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Disrupt Undead, Flare, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Open/Close, Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost, Read Magic, Resistance

1st level: Cause Fear, Charm Person, Chill Touch, Hypnotism, Identify, Mage Armor, Ray of Enfeeblement, Summon Monster I, True Strike

2nd level: Arcane Lock, Darkness, Detect Thoughts, Ghoul Touch, Knock, Locate Object, Scare, See Invisibility, Shatter, Spectral Hand, Summon Monster II

3rd level Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Dispel Magic, Halt Undead; Hold Person, Lightning Bolt, Nondetection, Slow, Summon Monster III, Vampiric Touch

4th level: Arcane Eye, Bestow Curse, Charm Monster, Confusion, Contagion, Detect Scrying, Emotion, Enervation, Fear, Locate Creature, Scrying, Shout, Summon Monster IV

Innate Spells: Darkness 3x/day; Desecrate; Poison 3x/day; Unholy Blight

By the way, the above doesn't reflect my own take on the Fellowship or Gandalf.  It's more a thought exercise than anything else, to see if it could work within the parameters given. Personally, I think Gandalf, Aragorn, and Boromir are pretty high level - Gandalf and Aragorn at least in the high teens, if not approaching D&D "epic" levels, while Boromir is at least in the mid-teens. Legolas  seems to be of moderately high mod-levels, maybe 8-10th. Gimli seems right about there, but a bit less powerful than Legolas.

I'm curious to see if 4e can be used even better for this.

Colonel, thanks for reposting that article.  I missed it the first time around.

Does anybody have the old White Dwarf issue that offered a trimmed down version of Moria as a starting adventure?  If I recall correctly, Gandalf was something like a cleric 6.

I don't have that, but speaking of Moria...Decipher's Moria box set is actually pretty good. It has a system where it can be customized so no two Moria's are alike, and also, as i recall, includes a system that simulates how the denizens become alert to the PC's presence if certain things happen. Again, as I recall, the latter system reminded me of an earlier, similar system Fiery Dragon used for some of its d20 adventures.

Colonel, I salute you.  I would totally play that game.

My take on things is this -
Gandalf wasn't human, he was a magical/divine entitiy who's mission was to stop Saruon without the involvement of pitting the gods and demigods directly against each other.
His "Rules of Engagement" for want of a better term, was that he could only match force with force. I therefore see his 'level' as scaling up or down depending on the foe.
When with a few hobbits, he was limited to a few low level illusion spells. Versus a horde of Orcs, he could open up a bit (not being a D&Der, how high a level wizard do you have to be to have gained significant melee combat skills alongside magical power?), and against the Balrog, with no other mortals to get caught in the crossfire.
 
 
Or perhaps the entire LOTR is a lot lower powered than first impressions. From what I remember of the Silmarillion, Elven heroes were capable of taking out Balrogs and the older and nastier Dragons. Smaug, who was amongst the mightiest of his race, was slain by a single, well placed arrow from a human longbow.

Maybe we just have an inflated idea of what levels are suppposed to represent these days as compared to original D&D.  A level 4 fighter in the brown books (Hero), after all, was supposed to be equivalent to 4 men in terms of staying power.  A level 5 wizard (Thaumaturgist) isn't too shabby by that metric, either, being as powerful as 3 men.  And level 3 spells are where things start to get kickass; higher level spells allow you to do some pretty incredible things, when you really think about it.

Just another way of looking at things.

Then again, I do remember reading that the Istari were not to show their full power in ME as the Valar did not want to risk another sundering of the world as had happened at the end of the second age.

Quote from: O'Borg... Smaug, who was amongst the mightiest of his race, was slain by a single, well placed arrow from a human longbow.

Yes, but it was Bard's special "black arrow" (which had been in his family for generations, iirc), arguably a 'magic item' of some sort.

Quote from: AkrasiaYes, but it was Bard's special "black arrow" (which had been in his family for generations, iirc), arguably a 'magic item' of some sort.

Direct inspiration for the Arrow of Slaying, I would venture.

Quote from: jrientsDirect inspiration for the Arrow of Slaying, I would venture.

...and Millenia later  I bet a good Watcher would give that arrow to his Slayer.

I'd forgotten that article, many thanks Calithena.

I think it still has a lot to say actually, part of what it says is you can have truly epic fantasy (and LotR is pretty damn epic) which is magic rich but which isn't necessarily all that overpowered.

For me, I'd go for sixth or seventh level as he casts third level spells more than once per day I think sometimes, but one point of that article is that you could have an epic fantasy like LotR with the only magic in the game being a fifth level mage (able to use a sword, but JRTT wasn't writing for DnD after all) and a bad guy with lots of scrying powers.

We don't need magic items a go-go, we don't need power to level cities, we just need imagination, a sense of wonder and a sense that magic is magical.  

Great article, glad to see it again.

Quote from: Koltar...and Millenia later  I bet a good Watcher would give that arrow to his Slayer.

Koltar, looking sharp my man :cool:

Quote from: jrientsDoes anybody have the old White Dwarf issue that offered a trimmed down version of Moria as a starting adventure?  If I recall correctly, Gandalf was something like a cleric 6.

White Dwarf #38 (Feb 1983)

Gandalf: man, 8th level cleric
Aragorn: man, 7th level ranger-paladin (Lew Pulsipher made this class up for the purpose of that article/module)
Boromir: man, 7th level fighter
Gimli: dwarf, 4th level fighter
Legolas: elf, 4th level fighter
Frodo: hobbit, 2nd level fighter
Sam, Pippin, and Merry: all hobbits, 2nd level thief

Quote from: DrewIt was just a bit of fun, an attempt to puncture the power gaming assumptions of the day.

I'd say amongst some, it still persists today. Or at least, as of the publishing of the Epic Level Handbook for 3e. There's an annoying tendency to place figures of legend at levels 20+ when level 10+ has, when you look at it, some pretty darn legendary stuff in it.

I was under the impression Gandalf kept things relatively tame so as not to give himself away. Doesn't he say at some point that the use of his power pretty much tells everybody the fellowship is hiding out from where they are? That said, I'm all for low powered epic fantasy, but I think that magic items screw the balance up more than any given character ability.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadI'd say amongst some, it still persists today. Or at least, as of the publishing of the Epic Level Handbook for 3e. There's an annoying tendency to place figures of legend at levels 20+ when level 10+ has, when you look at it, some pretty darn legendary stuff in it.

Indeed. There's always been a tendency for gamers to imagine their favourite fictional characters as mega-powerful, an idea that's been encouraged by settings like the Forgotten Realms where it's patently the case.

As you say it's all relative. In a world where a 5th level fighter is considered to be a master swordsman a 7th level wizard who can whip off a fireball or two would be viewed with awe and dread. One method I've used to achieve this is by setting caps on NPC levels which are equal to the sum of their two highest ability modifiers +1. Thus a cleric with Wisdom 16 and Constitution 14 could advance no higher than level 6. Major NPC's (epic heroes & villains, heads of state etc.) are exempt, as of course are the PC's. It leads to the kind of world that is low in overall magic but still has the potential for the rare legendary figure who's capable of going toe-to-toe with a Fire Giant. It also helps emphasise the heroic nature of the party without having to award extra benefits and such.

I'll be using this method for my True20 Wilderlands campaign. Should be cool.

Quote from: AosI was under the impression Gandalf kept things relatively tame so as not to give himself away. Doesn't he say at some point that the use of his power pretty much tells everybody the fellowship is hiding out from where they are?

The Wizards, or Istari, were sent to Middle-earth to aid its peoples against the Dark Lord. Three of them are mentioned by name in The Lord of the Rings - Radagast the Brown, Saruman the White, and Gandalf the Grey. Two others are mentioned in material unpublished in Tolkien's lifetime (check Unfinished Tales for the story), Alatar and Pallando, called the Blue Wizards. These latter two went into the east and were never heard from again, apparently. All of the Istari are Maiar, and were permitted only to match power with power when absolutely necessary. Wielding such power openly could attract Sauron's attention, as Gandalf says at the Redhorn Pass. He battled the Black Riders at Weathertop, which, until he became the White, was his most open display of power.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonThe Wizards, or Istari, were sent to Middle-earth to aid its peoples against the Dark Lord. Three of them are mentioned by name in The Lord of the Rings - Radagast the Brown, Saruman the White, and Gandalf the Grey. Two others are mentioned in material unpublished in Tolkien's lifetime (check Unfinished Tales for the story), Alatar and Pallando, called the Blue Wizards. These latter two went into the east and were never heard from again, apparently. All of the Istari are Maiar, and were permitted only to match power with power when absolutely necessary. Wielding such power openly could attract Sauron's attention, as Gandalf says at the Redhorn Pass. He battled the Black Riders at Weathertop, which, until he became the White, was his most open display of power.

Yes, the Istari's remit was to provide counsel and inspiration rather than blow shit up. IIRC it was a direct response by the Valar to the world having it's teeth kicked in during the wars with Morgoth. Matching power with power was seen as the surest route to destroying everything they were trying to preserve.

Of course the achilles heel of the plan was reducing the 5 Maiar who travelled from the west to a more or less mortal scale. As such they appeared far more vulnerable to temptation and corruption than if they'd maintained their semi-deific abilities and forms. Ultimately the tradeoff was worth it, but one has to wonder what would have happened if Gandalf had lost his way too. Radagast wasn't anywhere near as effectual, the two Blues disappeared and Saruman's descent was one of the greatest threats to the west. Food for thought, anyway.

Quote from: Drewthe two Blues disappeared

The wiki entry I was reading referred to a letter Tolkien wrote towards the end of his life which indicated that the Blue Wizards may, in fact, have been very successful in their mission. They were to go into the east and help the people there throw off Sauron's yoke. Apparently Tolkien related that they did, indeed, play a pivotal role in reducing and delaying the armies Sauron had available from the east, thus helping to save the west. But they did it "off stage." It's something I hadn't read before, and I liked the sound of it.

Sounds like good fodder for a campaign, actually.

I have no contribution to this thread, except to say - Colonel, I like your writeup of the Fellowship a lot! :D

Quote from: ColonelHardissonThe wiki entry I was reading referred to a letter Tolkien wrote towards the end of his life which indicated that the Blue Wizards may, in fact, have been very successful in their mission. They were to go into the east and help the people there throw off Sauron's yoke. Apparently Tolkien related that they did, indeed, play a pivotal role in reducing and delaying the armies Sauron had available from the east, thus helping to save the west. But they did it "off stage." It's something I hadn't read before, and I liked the sound of it.

Yeah, that does sound pretty cool.

Care to take a stab at the Balrog, Colonel?

::hands the Colonel Glamdring:: ;)

A Fiendish, Large Fire Elemental that uses a Flaming +1 greatsword and whip instead of the Fire Elemental's natural attacks could fit the bill. You'll have to wait on the stats...

And yeah, I got the pun :)

Genius! I was thinking demon or devil, but naturally those don't fit very well. Why fiendish template?

I have to admit, I really, really like taking a concept and tweaking D&D to fit it. It's a lot more interesting to slap a Balrog down than a Fire Elemental.

How do you figure Gandalf caused the Balrog to fall? Shatter spell?

Fiendish because it just fits the background of the critter, and provides it with a few extra abilities that are in keeping with what we saw in the books.

I really would have to sit down and put on my thinking cap to figure out how Gandalf defeated the Balrog. This is especially true because of Gandalf's account of his battle all the way down and then back up again to the top of the mountain with the creature.

Col, if you haven't seen it, check out E6 (http://esix.pbwiki.com/f/E6v041.pdf), a modification to D&D that is supposed to let PCs be heroic (by scaling down the rest of the world) but not superheroes. I think it was inspired by D&D: Calibrating your expectations (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html), an article in the vein of Seligman's piece.

In a nutshell, you only advance to 6th level. After that, every 5,000xp you can take a feat, but gain no HD, skill points, etc (although you can still take Feats that give you those things). The author has a wiki with some suggested Feats (http://esix.pbwiki.com/Feats) that unlock certain pre-reqs and signature class abilities that would otherwise be unnatainable.

I've always liked low-level D&D, so these what ifs really get me pumped up to play the game.

So Colonel, any more thoughts about Gandalf & the Balrog?

No, I have to admit that I've had quite a bit on my plate lately. I'll have to let the tacticians here tackle the problem, if they're inclined to do so.

No problemo, I understand. I honestly don't think it's possible to stat up a 5th level wizard capable of rasslin' a Fiendish Fire Elemental with D&D. :D

Shoot, must've failed my Taunt check.

I know this won't serve as a good answer but maybe if something gets posted, other ideas will come.   Gandalf studied a number of spells which would only work in unique situitions.  If I remember my D&D, you could make a "narrow" spell which was powerful but limited ("For Ye Olde Balrog...")and get it lowered a level or two.  Gandalf just happened to have such a spell ready...could he read the future:raise:

Quote from: cr0mShoot, must've failed my Taunt check.

Actually, I agree with you. Well, I don't know if it's impossible, it's just very unlikely that a 5th level Wizard, regardless of edition, could accomplish such a feat. As he relates in the book, Gandalf fell with the Balrog, hewing him all the way down as they fell, then chased the beast all the way to the top of the mountain and laid the smack down on him there. Makes me tired just thinkin' about it.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonAs he relates in the book, Gandalf fell with the Balrog, hewing him all the way down as they fell, then chased the beast all the way to the top of the mountain and laid the smack down on him there.

Yeah right. Thing broke its neck in the fall. G only survived because he landed in a vat of bleach.

Quote from: Erik BoielleYeah right. Thing broke its neck in the fall. G only survived because he landed in a vat of bleach.

True. We only know what Gandalf said. He was careful not to push it too far and claim the Balrog begged for his life by offering fellatio or some such.

LOL, bleach.

It depends a lot on the style of the game. I could see shatter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shatter.htm) being allowed to destroy the bridge (50lbs of stone might be enough to crack the bridge and the Balrog's weight does the rest).

A Fly (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fly.htm) spell is sufficient for Gandalf to smack him all the way down--although you have to wonder why he didn't fly off of Orthanc then... maybe he didn't have it memorized? :)

What happens to a Balrog when he hits the water? The rules say water is an impassable barrier to a fire elemental, but are silent about immersion. Anyway, if you're the type of GM that just let Gandalf fight all the way down, you might also be the type who would suppress his "Burn" ability and ding the Balrog for some massive amount of damage... just enough for Gandalf to chase him down and smote all kinds of ruin on his ass.

Sounds awesome! Did I forget anything?

Quote from: cr0mWhat happens to a Balrog when he hits the water?

According to what Gandalf said, his fire was doused and he became slimy. He only burst into flame again once he and Gandalf came out on the peak of Zirak-zigil. How that translates into game terms, I don't know.

It's almost as if Tolkien didn't have a PHB handy.;)

Right, slimy. Well, as long as we're approximating a Balrog, it's not unreasonable to say "his fire is out for 4d6 rounds" and color it by saying he becomes slimy.

I draw your attention to:

The Battle of Gandalf vs. the Balrog (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbYlq6O9QkE)

Now then.   Please.  Can we put away this nonsense about Gandalf being a measly rinky dinkiny 5th Level Magic User?   Please?  

He was 6th Level, you fools.  Clearly.

Cool little cut and paste job.

I think Gandalf was E6.

Hello all,

I suppose an argument could be made that the method by which Gandalf can take low level spells and remaster them into something more complex points to his master of the spell that is beyond the "entry" level for that spell. Certainly it is clear that a fifth level mage can throw a fireball, but to be able to make a fireball (or lightning bolt) do more than what your everyday, generic, run-of-the-mill AD&D fireball can do takes mastery that points to eons of development.  Gandalf made it look easy, perhaps because he had the time to master it.  Perhaps an argument can be made that his SPELL LEVEL was lower, but certainly his EXPERIENCE LEVEL is much higher.

With the higher level of master (assumably) comes the higher level spells, but he just never used them (that we can tell), cared to study to get them, or was prohibited to try.

Just a thought.

I read this whole article, and I still don't know whether Gandalf could beat Kirk.

Kirk? Are you high? Gandalf couldn't even take Mighty Mouse.

Quote from: Age of Fable;228465I read this whole article, and I still don't know whether Gandalf could beat Kirk.

They would fight to a standstill, then each would realize the other was a good guy, then set about teaming up against the bad guy who had them fight.

Happens in comic books all the time.

Didn't this exact subject get a good working over back in 1977? I'm sure it featured in the letters pages of Dragon or somesuch magazine back 'in the day'.

Exactly the same conclusion.

Thanks for the Fellowship writeup, Col. I remember you breaking that down long ago. "Arcane Eye" for Sauron, indeed...

I guess if you want to get REALLY old school Gandalf was a Wizard and the Balrog was a Balrog...not going to look up what their odds against each other are in Chainmail just now...

Quote from: Mithras;228603Didn't this exact subject get a good working over back in 1977? I'm sure it featured in the letters pages of Dragon or somesuch magazine back 'in the day'.

Exactly the same conclusion.

Well, yeah. My original post in this thread (#20) was a direct response to that Dragon article from 1977, and I directly referenced it and the guy who wrote it.

Sometimes it does pay to read the thread before posting.

Personally I've always found LoTR to be much better stated out when you base it around the Warhammer rules.  Everything actually fits into place then.  You get your skilled fighter types, your almost non-gay elves and you get your really powerful but not extremely diverse spell casting wizards that could kick the shit out of a Balrog.

kryst, I'd like to see what you come up with for G and the gang, if you're up for it.

See, Gandalf fits much better in the Riddle of Steel world- Magic is much more dangerous there. In the main book, the wrong thing can actually destroy the world. Gandalf had a few botches in his history, so he appeared ancient, and was careful with his magic because he didn't want to ruin the world!

:D

Quote from: cr0m;229368kryst, I'd like to see what you come up with for G and the gang, if you're up for it.

That would require - free time.  But I may see what I can whip up.  I should at least be able to throw the career paths together.

Just for Balbinus:

Exalted can totally do Gandalf and Middle Earth. Just use these house rules...

(page of blather)

In honor of D&D 4e, we really need an update to this article to be consistent with the latest rule changes.

Someone should write something along the lines of "Superman was only a 1st level fighter".  :D

Quote from: jgants;229465In honor of D&D 4e, we really need an update to this article to be consistent with the latest rule changes.

I'd consider doing it, but I just got the PHB, and have yet to get the rest of the books. My initial assessment, after giving a fairly cursory look/skim of the PHB, is that while it would be fairly easy to keep Gandalf and the other "big guns" at 3rd/4th/5th level, the hobbits would be harder to depict, especially at the beginning of the story. At least, in my opinion. The classes of 4e seem more powerful at first level than the hobbits seemed to me at the opening of the book, and there aren't any NPC classes in 4e. It might be worthwhile to use 3e's NPC classes, or strip away some of the powers/abilities 4e's classes have at first level, and have them progress through one or two "zero levels" before hitting first.

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;229498I'd consider doing it, but I just got the PHB, and have yet to get the rest of the books. My initial assessment, after giving a fairly cursory look/skim of the PHB, is that while it would be fairly easy to keep Gandalf and the other "big guns" at 3rd/4th/5th level, the hobbits would be harder to depict, especially at the beginning of the story. At least, in my opinion. The classes of 4e seem more powerful at first level than the hobbits seemed to me at the opening of the book, and there aren't any NPC classes in 4e. It might be worthwhile to use 3e's NPC classes, or strip away some of the powers/abilities 4e's classes have at first level, and have them progress through one or two "zero levels" before hitting first.

Hence my sarcastic comment that someone as powerful as Superman would only count as a first level fighter.

Quote from: jgants;229502Hence my sarcastic comment that someone as powerful as Superman would only count as a first level fighter.

I got what you were getting at, but I'd actually been thinking about doing what you mentioned in the first part of the post.

If an anime company ever does LotR, I am sure the 4e rules will do Gandalf and crew just fine.

And hot damn, I would love to see that.

Halfling Tears           Halfling Attack 0
You burst into tears compelling those affected to comfort you, and say wise, compassionate things.
At will* martial fail
Standard Action         Halfling
Targets: Other halflings, elves, cranky wizard guys
Attack: Charisma vs Will
Hit: All parties shift up to three squares and begin patting you on the back. someone will also be compelled to mention how strong you and all the little folk are. Targets will be unable to do anything but offer comfort or eat elf toast until the end of your next turn.

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;142283I really would have to sit down and put on my thinking cap to figure out how Gandalf defeated the Balrog. This is especially true because of Gandalf's account of his battle all the way down and then back up again to the top of the mountain with the creature.

Maybe Gandalf made it all up. Maybe he just ran away. I mean, did he ever present any proof he'd slain the Balrog? A head, or even a big toe? Nope!

Combine that with "oh yes I'm terribly powerful but if I use it I'll draw nasty attention to us," and what you get is that Gandalf was a level 5 Magic-User, and a level 10 Bullshitter.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;229634Maybe Gandalf made it all up. Maybe he just ran away. I mean, did he ever present any proof he'd slain the Balrog? A head, or even a big toe? Nope!

Combine that with "oh yes I'm terribly powerful but if I use it I'll draw nasty attention to us," and what you get is that Gandalf was a level 5 Magic-User, and a level 10 Bullshitter.

You've got it all wrong.  Gandalf was, lore speaking, a demi-god.  He was definitely powerful enough.

Where he tended to bullshit was in fact making himself seem weaker than he really was.  

It's a sort of religious thing, really, the way he works.  He could do more, but that would interfere too much, kinda like God committing too many miracles would destroy faith, Gandalf letting go too much of his power in front of the normies would lead them to not rely enough on their own strength instead.

He's a manipulative bastard, really.  Even that whole showy transformation to the White Wizard is basically a way of him just using more of the power he already had, but having a "story excuse" to get away with it and still not spook the locals.

Quote from: Calithena;229446Just for Balbinus:

Exalted can totally do Gandalf and Middle Earth. Just use these house rules...

(page of blather)

Come the revolution, while you may not be first against the wall, I shall certainly be sure to save you a spot just for this post.

All I need now is for someone to explain how Dogs is the ideal game for LotR and I shall shout thread bingo...

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;229634Maybe Gandalf made it all up. Maybe he just ran away. I mean, did he ever present any proof he'd slain the Balrog? A head, or even a big toe? Nope!

Combine that with "oh yes I'm terribly powerful but if I use it I'll draw nasty attention to us," and what you get is that Gandalf was a level 5 Magic-User, and a level 10 Bullshitter.

It really depends which books you use doesn't it?

Just the Hobbit, he ain't that tough.

LotR, he's fairly tough, but it seems pretty limited and as you say we take a lot of it on faith.

Silmarillion, he's a madwhack voodoo ninja.

Huh. I guess DitV could do it. Gandalf, Radagast, those guys could be Dogs. Then Saruman would be a fallen Dog who summoned demons...hmm...yep, Frodo and Sam passing judgment on Gollum, Gandalf on the Steward of Minas Tirith, it's all there. This is totally a Dogs adventure.

Actually, though, I think Wushu would be an even better fit. I mean, yes, Tolkien does go into lots of quasi-historic and descriptive detail, even describing the equipment people bring on some occasions, and the fighting seems pretty naturalistic, but since you just bring your own descriptions in, Wushu would work great. Oh, and the Uruk Hai are totally mooks. Totally. The hobbit fighting style involves a lot of sneaking and hiding, but...

*BAM*

Yeah, I hate this kind of post too.

Quote from: Balbinus;229678It really depends which books you use doesn't it?

Just the Hobbit, he ain't that tough.

LotR, he's fairly tough, but it seems pretty limited and as you say we take a lot of it on faith.

Silmarillion, he's a madwhack voodoo ninja.

Coincidentally, my Risus write-up for the big G has Madwhack Voodoo Ninja [4] as one of his cliches.

Quote from: Calithena;134344So how do we reconcile our intuition with the bare facts? Well, for one thing, as I hinted above, the universe of LOTR was magic-weak. It is easy to assume that it was run by “ a very tough DM” who rewarded experience so slowly that it would take 2000 years for a pseudo-angel to get to the 5th level, and 6000 years or so for an EHP to reach 12th. But it is still unsettling. I would rather place the blame on the scale we are using: the D&D magic system. It seems a more likely thing for Gygax and Arneson to misjudge the spell levels. So what can we do? Change the spell system, the experience system or the levels of the spells, or all of the above? What is your response?

My response is that the game rules are doing their job, and that it's best for me to actually change my own perspective to fit OD&D's frame rather than try and alter the D&D game in ways that just create more problems elsewhere.

This post is an awesome read. I just had to resurrect the thread for those who might have missed it.

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;134432Y'know, here's something I posted to this very site over a year ago...

Wow. That's awesome too (click quote arrow to see what the Colonel is quoting).

Quote from: jrients;229741Coincidentally, my Risus write-up for the big G has Madwhack Voodoo Ninja [4] as one of his cliches.

I pretty sure thats a Rifts OCC.

If not, it would make a great splatbook.

Quote from: Benoist;442169My response is that the game rules are doing their job, and that it's best for me to actually change my own perspective to fit OD&D's frame rather than try and alter the D&D game in ways that just create more problems elsewhere.

This post is an awesome read. I just had to resurrect the thread for those who might have missed it.

Indeed. Never once while playing Traveler did anyone whine because you can't "beam up" like in Star Trek, or cross the galaxy in a couple of hours as in Star Wars. Traveler isn't Star Wars or Star Trek.

D&D isn't Tolkien -deal with it.

Traveller is a terrible example.
Everyone I knew bitched about the lack of blasters. Everyone.

Quote from: Aos;442192Traveller is a terrible example.
Everyone I knew bitched about the lack of blasters. Everyone.

I'd run Stars Without Number anyway. Distortion Cannons and Plasma Projectors FTW! :D

Quote from: Aos;442192Traveller is a terrible example.
Everyone I knew bitched about the lack of blasters. Everyone.

Then they were SOBs that bitched too much.

 TRAVELLER had better guns like Plasma Gun/Man Portable weapons and Laser rifles - a beam weapon is just a beam weapon.

Sounds like you played with a bunch of whiners.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;442201Then they were SOBs that bitched too much.

Yeah. Failure at imagination and all that. :D

I made the mistake of starting on page one.

From Gandalf casting spells, to people complaining about blasters, or the lack thereof.

Dayum, what a meanderation.

Why on Earth was this necro'd?

*yawn*

Quote from: Aos;442192Traveller is a terrible example.
Everyone I knew bitched about the lack of blasters. Everyone.

Blasters? What about lightsabers?

Quote from: Doltar;442201Then they were SOBs that bitched too much.

 TRAVELLER had better guns like Plasma Gun/Man Portable weapons and Laser rifles - a bean weapon is just a beam weapon.

Sounds like you played with a bunch of whiners.

- Ed C.

Foreheadfuck you, cosplay.
We played with the original 3 LBB's. There was only a lazer gun and it required a power pack. We were 13-14 years old.

Quote from: Elfdart;442210Blasters? What about lightsabers?

Luke carried a lightsaber, man; were were all about Solo.

Quote from: Benoist;442199I'd run Stars Without Number anyway. Distortion Cannons and Plasma Projectors FTW! :D

Today, I'd just house rule something in. My friends at the time were uncomfortable with deliberate houseruling, although we did it without realizing it all the time.
I know another guy who although really, really smart, was completely turned off by the navigation math (he was in 7th grade at the time) and ditched the game over it as well.

Quote from: Aos;442217Today, I'd just house rule something in. My friends at the time were uncomfortable with deliberate houseruling, although we did it without realizing it all the time.
I know another guy who although really, really smart, was completely turned off by the navigation math (he was in 7th grade at the time) and ditched the game over it as well.

Traveller never really made it in France. It just wasn't part of my role playing landscape when I was a kid. Star Wars d6, however, was HUGELY popular. We played the hell out of it. One of the first RPG I really played (as opposed to run) regularly after I started introducing people to RPGs in school (the other was Rolemaster. Yes. At 12 years old we played Rolemaster). So there was no trouble getting our fix in terms of blasters and lightsabers, if you see what I mean.

Quote from: Aos;442213Foreheadfuck you, cosplay.
We played with the original 3 LBB's. There was only a lazer gun and it required a power pack. We were 13-14 years old.

Too cheap to spring for LBB 4:MERCENARY and LBB 5: HIGH GUARD back then?

 Or did no one love you enough to give them to you as a Birthday or Holiday presents?


Zheesh, you are a whiner.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Benoist;442225Traveller never really made it in France. It just wasn't part of my role playing landscape when I was a kid. Star Wars d6, however, was HUGELY popular. We played the hell out of it. One of the first RPG I really played (as opposed to run) regularly after I started introducing people to RPGs in school (the other was Rolemaster. Yes. At 12 years old we played Rolemaster). So there was no trouble getting our fix in terms of blasters and lightsabers, if you see what I mean.

We switched to Space Opera after a year or two. We played in a cobbled together Star Wars Universe (this was before D6).
Space Opera was a shit game, but it had everything you needed in the original box. This brings me to another point; I lived in a small town. We had to travel like 30 miles to the nearest gaming store.  If it wasn't AD&D and it wasn't in the core book, we would almost certainly never see it, much less buy it or make use of it. Prior to the early 90's, I think I only bought two supplements: HPL's Dreamlands for CoC and the Ringworld Companion- but I was really in to HPL and Niven's known space, so i tracked these fuckers down while on a trip to the big city. So you know Traveller might have had a bunch of stuff in the supps but I never laid eyes on it.

Quote from: Koltar;442228Too cheap to spring for LBB 4:MERCENARY and LBB 5: HIGH GUARD back then?

 Or did no one love you enough to give them to you as a Birthday or Holiday presents?


Zheesh, you are a whiner.


- Ed C.

Ed, I lived in a small town as I stated in the post above. Furthermore, you are correct: nobody loved me enough to buy me those books, as I was raised by impoverished, abusive and neglectful drunks; times were good when I had enough to eat. Thank you for asking.

I have, however, amidst all my whining and despite some pretty serious disadvantages, managed to live an extraordinary life full of laughter, mystery, joy and, especially, achievement.

I wont bother to relate my opinion of you, as I cant seem to find a thesaurus with scope adequate enough for the task.

Cheers.

My group came to Trav from a different direction, that being Niven, Asimov, Cherryh books and movies like Outland and Logan's Run and 2001: A Space Odyssey and Alien. Throw in a bit of Blade Runner later on and that's my Trav, so mentioning it is perfectly apropos for me.

slightly related:
http://1d8.blogspot.com/2011/02/evolution-of-fighter-in-d.html

Good post, and I found his analysis interesting; it seems sound but i didn't check the math.

Quote from: J Arcane;229639You've got it all wrong.  Gandalf was, lore speaking, a demi-god.  He was definitely powerful enough.

Where he tended to bullshit was in fact making himself seem weaker than he really was.  

It's a sort of religious thing, really, the way he works.  He could do more, but that would interfere too much, kinda like God committing too many miracles would destroy faith, Gandalf letting go too much of his power in front of the normies would lead them to not rely enough on their own strength instead.

I call bullshit on this. If Gandalf had anything as potent as a lightning bolt, fireball or even a couple of sleep spells, his party could have absolutely smoked the goblins in Moria instead of fighting the donnybrook they had in Balin's tomb.

QuoteHe's a manipulative bastard, really.  Even that whole showy transformation to the White Wizard is basically a way of him just using more of the power he already had, but having a "story excuse" to get away with it and still not spook the locals.

If I were a Tolkien/Gandalf fanboy (and I'm not, thank goodness!) I'd prefer that Gandalf was just weak compared to other spellcasters in fiction. The idea that he was holding back because... well, because makes him seem like a douche nozzle.

Quote from: Elfdart;442467I call bullshit on this. If Gandalf had anything as potent as a lightning bolt, fireball or even a couple of sleep spells, his party could have absolutely smoked the goblins in Moria instead of fighting the donnybrook they had in Balin's tomb.

If I were a Tolkien/Gandalf fanboy (and I'm not, thank goodness!) I'd prefer that Gandalf was just weak compared to other spellcasters in fiction. The idea that he was holding back because... well, because makes him seem like a douche nozzle.

I am a Tolkien/Gandalf fanboy, and I agree with this. There seems to be this weird assumption that because you're a demigod (or a demi-demigod, in the Maiar's case), then you ought to be able to make mountains explode, fly like superman and so on. The superhero/comics brand of a demigod, if you will. And that's something that I find puzzling, to be honest.

Personally, I'd stat Gandalf up as a high-level Bard variant. He has access to vast amounts of lore, leads and inspires others, fights in melee, and has magical powers.....though he doesn't display army-destroying artillery magic. That works for me.

Quote from: Elfdart;442467... If Gandalf had anything as potent as a lightning bolt, fireball or even a couple of sleep spells, his party could have absolutely smoked the goblins in Moria instead of fighting the donnybrook they had in Balin's tomb...

Well, in The Hobbit Gandalf does use a lightning bolt in his confrontation with the great goblin.  And when the party later is being chased by wargs, he uses something resembling 'fireballs' against them (enflamed pinecones, iirc; perhaps they're closer to fire 'magic missiles').

Magic in The Hobbit strikes me as more traditional or 'D&D-ish' than magic in LotR.

Gandalf is fucking full of excuses for not taking action or telling people what they need to know. He is also famous for tapping into every one else's weed stash.
Gandalf is an asshole.

Quote from: Akrasia;442555Well, in The Hobbit Gandalf does use a lightning bolt in his confrontation with the great goblin.  And when the party later is being chased by wargs, he uses something resembling 'fireballs' against them (enflamed pinecones, iirc; perhaps they're closer to fire 'magic missiles').

Magic in The Hobbit strikes me as more traditional or 'D&D-ish' than magic in LotR.

The pinecones sound like fire seeds -an absurdly high-level druid spell (absurd in that it's a 6th-level spell that is about as powerful as a 2nd-level spell: a whopping 2d8 in damage). Lightning bolt is still a 3rd-level spell and thus available to 5th-level magic-users.

What I find silly is the notion that Gandalf is way into double-digit levels in D&D terms. If that were the case, the goblins, trolls and even the Balrog should have been running away from him.

Imagine a wall of fire or cloudkill or any number of other 3rd to 5th-level spells being used against the orcs at Minas Tirith.

Quote from: Elfdart;442579Imagine a wall of fire or cloudkill or any number of other 3rd to 5th-level spells being used against the orcs at Minas Tirith.

Aah, cloudkill. If fireball is the nuke, cloudkill is the neutron bomb. I do have a couple of great memories of that spell...

Oh, for fuck's sake. Why is it that D&D nerds must always try to 'stat up' Gandalf & Co and then get into arguments over discrepancies? Wakey, wakey, people, The Lord of the Rings is not a fucking D&D novel! It doesn't map to the rules, not supposed to.

Why don't you all go and argue a bit about what level Dumbledore was, or Merlin, or Harry Dresden? They're all wizards, and they're all just as (not at all) meaningful to D&D as Gandalf.

Quote from: Premier;442597Oh, for fuck's sake. Why is it that D&D nerds must always try to 'stat up' Gandalf & Co and then get into arguments over discrepancies? Wakey, wakey, people, The Lord of the Rings is not a fucking D&D novel! It doesn't map to the rules, not supposed to.

Why don't you all go and argue a bit about what level Dumbledore was, or Merlin, or Harry Dresden? They're all wizards, and they're all just as (not at all) meaningful to D&D as Gandalf.

Maybe I will. I mean, Dragon Magazine used to publish stats for all kinds of fictional characters, as did D&DG. If you can list stats for Conan, Elric and others, why all the ass-hurt over Gandalf getting the same treatment?

What I find strange is people just assume Gandalf was a wizard in the same way characters in D&D were wizards (even though they were called magic-users).

Gandalf wasn't even human (or elf or dwarf or halfling for that matter). He had spell-like powers.

And I was always under the impression that spells in D&D were quite often imitations of powers present in 'monsters'.

Quote from: Elfdart;442612Maybe I will. I mean, Dragon Magazine used to publish stats for all kinds of fictional characters, as did D&DG. If you can list stats for Conan, Elric and others, why all the ass-hurt over Gandalf getting the same treatment?

Well, no one ever argues about how many magic user levels Conan had, and whether it was multi- or dual-classed, and how it could be multi if he was a human, do they? Just because, you know, he used magic in Beyond the Black River. And not a magic item, either - it was a right and proper casting.

So there you have something Conan canonically did and that cannot be possibly explained by D&D rules. But people are never arguing about that, it always must be Gandalf.

I've come to the conclusion that in fact it's some sort of subconscious malformed anti-Tolkien backlash because... hell, I don't know. Maybe because there was a time when Gary Gygax was extremely careful to distance himself from LotR and vocally claim the obvious falsehood that no, it was no inspiration at all. Then that message seeped into the consciousness of unreflecting D&D fanatics and got twisted into some sort of "Hurr, D&D Good, Tolkien Bad, hurr" sentiment. And one way of kicking LotR when you don't have the intellectual capacity to construct any actual criticism (or when there's no place for valid criticism in a given context) is to go and circlejerk about how "weak" it is. Because in the minds of socially outcast jock-harassed D&D nerds, being "weak" equates to some sort of all-encompassing existential inferiority, so let's claim LotR characters are weaker than our favourite characters Mr. Pyro the 16th level wizard and Gronk Dude the 15th level Barbarian, because that proves D&D is better and more mature than LotR. Hurr.

In other news, I'm feeling cranky this [strike]morning[/strike] afternoon.

Quote from: Premier;442637Well, no one ever argues about how many magic user levels Conan had, and whether it was multi- or dual-classed, and how it could be multi if he was a human, do they? Just because, you know, he used magic in Beyond the Black River. And not a magic item, either - it was a right and proper casting.

I remember quite a few people being up in arms over the stats assigned to Conan. Was he just a high-level fighter? a fighter/thief? The bickering was so constant that Gygax created the Barbarian class just so people could play Conan-like PCs.

QuoteSo there you have something Conan canonically did and that cannot be possibly explained by D&D rules. But people are never arguing about that, it always must be Gandalf.

Because people think of Conan as the ass-kicking, bad guy-slaying, babe-shagging, treasure stealing BAMF that he's made out to be in the novels, comic books and movies -not the guy who cast a spell in one book.

As far as Gandalf's stats are concerned, I wouldn't care were it not for some of the less intelligent fanboys insisting that he had to be 20-30th level in D&D terms. In D&D terms, his magic is roughly 5th-8th level with a rather limited spellbook, though he does appear to have some levels as a druid and a fighter, too. I don't consider this a flaw in the character or the story. Quite the opposite.

QuoteI've come to the conclusion that in fact it's some sort of subconscious malformed anti-Tolkien backlash because... hell, I don't know. Maybe because there was a time when Gary Gygax was extremely careful to distance himself from LotR and vocally claim the obvious falsehood that no, it was no inspiration at all.

Gygax never claimed it was no inspiration, just that it wasn't the main one and that he found LOTR a crashing bore.

QuoteThen that message seeped into the consciousness of unreflecting D&D fanatics and got twisted into some sort of "Hurr, D&D Good, Tolkien Bad, hurr" sentiment. And one way of kicking LotR when you don't have the intellectual capacity to construct any actual criticism (or when there's no place for valid criticism in a given context) is to go and circlejerk about how "weak" it is. Because in the minds of socially outcast jock-harassed D&D nerds, being "weak" equates to some sort of all-encompassing existential inferiority, so let's claim LotR characters are weaker than our favourite characters Mr. Pyro the 16th level wizard and Gronk Dude the 15th level Barbarian, because that proves D&D is better and more mature than LotR. Hurr.

That might be true for some, but not in my case. For starters, I was one of the jocks. Second, relative strength or weakness of a character means zilch as far as quality of story or quality of game is concerned. My favorite sorcerer in any movie or novel is still Ulric from Dragonslayer (played by Ralph Richardson). His magic (aside from some very limited divination and telekinesis) consisted of (a) having himself cremated and resurrected and (b) blowing himself up and in doing so, taking out a dragon. Overall, a mid-range spellcaster who used up all his power for two big-time spells.

Besides, most of my favorite game scenarios are for low to mid-level characters, where a few dozen goblins and a troll are a real threat.

QuoteIn other news, I'm feeling cranky this [strike]morning[/strike] afternoon.

Calm down; have some dip!

Funny how much nerd rage can be generated from an argument over how a fictional character in a book maps to a fictional game that has an entirely different setting and logical structures.

Oh and its obvious Gandalf is a 5th level Cleric with a ring of fire, a magic staff and the ability to use swords :)

but even more annoying how does superman turn back time in Superman 2 and wipe Lois Lane's memory. No where in his description in SC heroes does it list out those powers....

Quote from: jibbajibba;442710but even more annoying how does superman turn back time in Superman 2 and wipe Lois Lane's memory. No where in his description in SC heroes does it list out those powers....

It's doable in Icons
Icons pg 7:
Massive Cosmic Success
An effort of 15 or more is enough to achieve a massive success on a test of cosmic (10) difficulty; such a tremendous effort (which requires a decent combination of ability, luck, and determination to achieve at all) is worthy of special note. Essentially, any time you achieve a massive cosmic success, it can accomplish pretty much anything the Game Master is willing to allow: pushing the Earth out of orbit, causing time to flow backwards, pretty much anything you can convince the GM could possibly happen in the game. This depends heavily on the style of game the Game Master is running, and your own ability to make the whole thing sound like a lot of fun

Strictly speaking, in terms of Tolkien's world, Gandalf was actually some kind of angel.

In any case, I think we just have to accept at some point that D&D is not a great emulation for LoTR.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Aos;442578Gandalf is fucking full of excuses for not taking action or telling people what they need to know. He is also famous for tapping into every one else's weed stash.
Gandalf is an asshole.

Exactly.  His MO is all about avoiding actually doing anything himself, while getting other people to do it instead. Disappearing at the worst possible moments, then there's all the potential symbology in the Balrog thing, and so forth.

Gandalf is basically Jesus in a funny hat.  And part of that is knowing when to sling the miracles around.  

Quote from: Premier;442637In other news, I'm feeling cranky this [strike]morning[/strike] afternoon.

Cranky as in on crank?  Because that was some seriously crazy shit you just spouted there.  Maybe you should switch to mellower drugs.  How the hell in any rational mind do you go from people debating Tolkien lore to "D&D players hate Tolkien"?

Actually what level was Jesus ?

He does some cure disease , create food and water, a raise dead, he can cast out spirits and do cure medium wounds lame legs and withered arms.
We don't see him do a lot of offensive magic though ..... maybe James had those bits left out to stop teh Romans killign all the Christians :)

Quote from: J Arcane;442808Cranky as in on crank?

No, cranky as in cranky. (//http://www.google.com/dictionary?q=cranky&langpair=en%7Cen&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XNxqTcjgO83qOZvhuLcL&ved=0CBoQmwMoAA) :)

QuoteHow the hell in any rational mind do you go from people debating Tolkien lore to "D&D players hate Tolkien"?

Through the awesome power of Syllogism.

Major premise: The 5th level Gandalf debate has been repeated so often, so vehemenently, and for such a long time; and some of the returning arguments are just so asinine; that any rational D&D fan would have left it behind long ago.

Minor premise: Some D&D fans have not left it behind long ago.

Conclusion: Some D&D fans are not rational.


At which point it's a guess as to why some* D&D fans are not rational, and I think my explanation is as good as any other I've seen so far. Not that anyone else has actual taken the time and trouble to offer one, mind you.

* Note my argument doesn't imply that all D&D fans are like this, so please don't try to put that word in my mouth like you did.

:P

Or perhaps new people are perennially re-discovering an old argument.

Quote from: jibbajibba;442812Actually what level was Jesus ?

He does some cure disease , create food and water, a raise dead, he can cast out spirits and do cure medium wounds lame legs and withered arms.
We don't see him do a lot of offensive magic though ..... maybe James had those bits left out to stop teh Romans killign all the Christians :)

He's obviously a non-comabt style priest built from the 2e Complete Priests Handbook. What level is the Raise Dead Self spell?

Quote from: two_fishes;442814Or perhaps new people are perennially re-discovering an old argument.

... and don't really give much of a shit if it's not making much sense at all.

... and the same old asinine arguments. :P

EDIT: Damn, ninja'd.

Quote from: Premier;442817... and the same old asinine arguments. :P

Well some things are timeless.

It's not like it's something to get riled up about. I don't know, it's an inane subject of conversation like many others. Some people will like talking about it, others won't. I really don't know how it harms anybody, unless of course one starts to want to go on a huge theory about changing D&D to fit Tolkien. I don't think anybody in this thread ever said something like that, did they?

Quote from: jibbajibba;442812Actually what level was Jesus ?

He does some cure disease , create food and water, a raise dead, he can cast out spirits and do cure medium wounds lame legs and withered arms.
We don't see him do a lot of offensive magic though ..... maybe James had those bits left out to stop teh Romans killign all the Christians :)

He took at least one level of fighter, I seem to remember one story where he was quite handy with a whip (not exactly a cleric weapon, guess it depends on the edition).

Quote from: jibbajibba;442812Actually what level was Jesus ?

Actually Jesus is an easier stat-up than Gandalf, since so much of D&D's clerical magic is traditionally inspired by Biblical miracles. The cleric's focus on healing strikes me as very specifically Christian.

Quote from: Benoist;442816... and don't really give much of a shit if it's not making much sense at all.

I quite prefer it that way, really.

Quote from: Premier;442813Major premise: The 5th level Gandalf debate has been repeated so often, so vehemenently, and for such a long time; and some of the returning arguments are just so asinine; that any rational D&D fan would have left it behind long ago.

Calithena set the trap all the way back in 2007, and people still keep falling into it. You have to give props for that, and that doesn't even go into the staying power of Seligman's article. A blatant troll from 1977 (a year I wasn't even born yet), and it still keeps on going.

Quote from: Melan;442870Calithena set the trap all the way back in 2007, and people still keep falling into it. You have to give props for that, and that doesn't even go into the staying power of Seligman's article. A blatant troll from 1977 (a year I wasn't even born yet), and it still keeps on going.

I haven't even bothered with this thread.  I ran a Middle Earth game back in the early 80's, and I realized the problems (and solutions) back then.  I am only taking the time now as it relates to another conversation I am having.

This whole conversation is the ass-underside of Vreeg's First Rule.  
Vreeg's first Rule of Setting Design,
"Make sure the ruleset you are using matches the setting and game you want to play, because the setting and game WILL eventually match the system."

Playing Middle Earth as an RPG and D&D don't match.  Period.  It's actually a good illustration of this.  It's not that Gandalf is only 'X' level; it's that the language used to translate is totally innapropriate and unsuited.  

My only real WTF? moment in the OP and the other versions one reads is the monumental arrogance that exudes from the page.  The attitude that "we must shoehorn everything into D&D, and be amazed enough to write articles when it does not fit", when the proper response is, "Wow, this sure doesn't work together".  Or at least, " What houserules would we need to make this work at all?"

Quote from: Doom;442825He took at least one level of fighter, I seem to remember one story where he was quite handy with a whip (not exactly a cleric weapon, guess it depends on the edition).

really ? pretty sure I would remember that one .... good at being whipped that I can give you.

Quote from: Premier;442813rational D&D fan

I'm going to bag one of these right after I kill me a unicorn.

Quote from: Aos;442892I'm going to bag one of these right after I kill me a unicorn.

I am ashamed to admit I misread that as "Bang"....

Quote from: jibbajibba;442888really ? pretty sure I would remember that one .... good at being whipped that I can give you.

Jesus and the moneychangers, it was a more popular story back when Christianity was more blatantly militant.

The wiki article is as good as any: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleansing_of_the_Temple

Quote from: LordVreeg;442894I am ashamed to admit I misread that as "Bang"....

Whatever it takes, man, whatever it takes.

Actually Gandalf was just Santa Claus who decided to take a vacation by visiting MIddle Earth as a break from his tiny version of Elves - it was also easier to get a smoke away from Mrs. Claus that way.


- Ed C.

Let me, for the record, state that I am indeed much higher than a level 5 wizard.  The reasons for my particular spell use have little to do with my actual ability, as alluded here and explained below:

http://www.glyphweb.com/Arda/g/gandalf.html

QuoteAs a Maia, he had many natural abilities that would seem magical to mortal races, but he also had a great store of knowledge of more 'mechanical' magic, worked through spells and incantations, and especially through the agency of his staff. It is clear that he had far greater power, especially after his return as Gandalf the White, than he ever displayed in Middle-earth.

The Valar sent us to Middle-Earth for specific purposes. Some of us abandoned our call, and disregarded the rules and duties with which we were sent. This is why Sauron could be described as having attained level 75. He had no regard for obedience and adhering to duty. He was evil, after all. A servant of and eventual heir to Melkor. We Maiar certainly could have turned Middle Earth into a battle ground amongst ourselves, but it was appointed for the free peoples of Middle Earth to decide their own fate, with our interference only as needed as compensation for Sauron's.

So you see, I, Olórin, known as Gandalf among the citezens of Middle Earth, was not handicapped by ability, but rather duty. From the beginning, it was given to the people to shape their world. We were only called to advise and aid. Nothing more.

Quote from: Gandalf;590957Let me, for the record, state that I am indeed much higher than a level 5 wizard.  The reasons for my particular spell use have little to do with my actual ability, as alluded here and explained below:

http://www.glyphweb.com/Arda/g/gandalf.html



The Valar sent us to Middle-Earth for specific purposes. Some of us abandoned our call, and disregarded the rules and duties with which we were sent. This is why Sauron could be described as having attained level 75. He had no regard for obedience and adhering to duty. He was evil, after all. A servant of and eventual heir to Melkor. We Maiar certainly could have turned Middle Earth into a battle ground amongst ourselves, but it was appointed for the free peoples of Middle Earth to decide their own fate, with our interference only as needed as compensation for Sauron's.

So you see, I, Olórin, known as Gandalf among the citezens of Middle Earth, was not handicapped by ability, but rather duty. From the beginning, it was given to the people to shape their world. We were only called to advise and aid. Nothing more.

The modern interpretation of Gandalf's (your) character is for a aging homosexual to take the part. Do you think any of the guys from the Knights & Knaves Alehouse could pull off such a role?

Quote from: Calithena;134344What is your response?

Gandalf wasn't playing D&D.

Quote from: Koltar;443029Actually Gandalf was just Santa Claus who decided to take a vacation by visiting MIddle Earth as a break from his tiny version of Elves - it was also easier to get a smoke away from Mrs. Claus that way.


- Ed C.

You're thinking of Narnia.

Yeah, I always thought that the whole "gandalf was 5th level" was silly, when based on the actual material from Tolkien, Gandalf was actually a sort of Angel.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;591658Yeah, I always thought that the whole "gandalf was 5th level" was silly, when based on the actual material from Tolkien, Gandalf was actually a sort of Angel.

I think the fundamental problem with people statting out Gandalf is that many Fantasy RPGs have magic as a reliable source of power. You do X,Y, and Z and blah occurs sort of thing. The impression I currently have after re-reading Lord of the Rings, the Simallirion, the Hobbit for the Nth time is that things happen on several levels in Middle Earth. As far as physical actions goes Gandalf was little better than any other healthy skilled individual who was very wise and knowledgeable. A limitation imposed by assuming mortal form (a form that can be killed or hurt).

However on the spiritual level is where Gandalf retain his "angelic" powers. Which works primarily against similar powers like the shadow of Sauron. Although he able to create and control fire both in the Hobbit and the LoTR. But the healing of Theodan, the driving away of the Nazgul are more potent uses of his supernatural abilities.

One thing I disagree with is the view that Gandalf was to be some passive rah rah cheerleader. Because in both books he was an active participant throughout. The reason he could to this was he was naturally limited by the form he and the other Istari had to take. A limitation that was necessary if he was to serve as a aide and not a crutch for the free people of Middle Earth.

And it is consistent with how the evil side worked. Both Melkor and Sauron were much diminished by their involvement with Middle Earth. By trying to take control of Middle Earth they both lost much of the grace that Eru Illuvatar granted them. Although they both remained immensely powerful compared to the average person.

So to me is not a question that Gandal is only 5th level. I don't think D&D can properly represent Gandalf or Middle Earth magic at all. Unless you do something like my Majestic Wilderlands where you adapt D&D to represent Middle Earth. Which can probably be done with some careful design and a reworked magic system.

Click on the picture for a higher resolution:

(http://enrill.net/documents/scans/TheDragon-LOTR-clip.jpg) (http://enrill.net/documents/scans/TheDragon-LOTR.JPG)

Aside from all the other reasons listed, the main reasons that article is ridiculous is that it
1. assumes that Gandalf used the full measure of his power.
2. makes laughable assumptions about the spells used.
3. is mostly a joke poking fun at people getting out of hand

I always thought the point of the article was that the game/story is epic, not necessarily your character (i.e. you can be playing an epic game, without needing to be "epic level").

Quote from: Novastar;591840I always thought the point of the article was that the game/story is epic, not necessarily your character (i.e. you can be playing an epic game, without needing to be "epic level").

Yes, and that is a good point.

RPGPundit

Quote from: CRKrueger;591755Aside from all the other reasons listed, the main reasons that article is ridiculous is that it
1. assumes that Gandalf used the full measure of his power.

If he's not, then he's an asshole.

"Gandalf the Grey? No, Gandalf the asshole!"

Quote2. makes laughable assumptions about the spells used.

So Galdalf's magic is so awesome that he kills a couple of goblins and...


...what, exactly?

Quote3. is mostly a joke poking fun at people getting out of hand

Of course it was tongue in cheek but that doesn't change that that going by just what is described in the books and shown in the movies, Gandalf's skeleton powers are pretty weak.

Quote from: RPGPundit;591658Yeah, I always thought that the whole "gandalf was 5th level" was silly, when based on the actual material from Tolkien, Gandalf was actually a sort of Angel.

RPGPundit

Pretty weak angel.

Quote from: Elfdart;592179Pretty weak angel.

Yeah, he only engineered the fall of the dark lord, restored the true heir to the throne, and ushered in the 4th age...


But, as much as Gandalf was an angel, in appearance and personality he was actually Tolkien's version of Woden.

Yep, D&D does not model Middle Earth well, except possibly the 1st Age. Gandalf was a a kind of divine being or as other said an Angel (Planatar level perhaps). The Valar and sent him and the other Istari to Middle Earth not to oppose Sauron with force of spell or arms. The Valar were reluctant to do so based upon the myriad of troubles such conflicts had caused in the past, most notably the march of the Valar against Melkor at the end of the 1st Age (and the resulting Breaking of the World).

Lots of interpretations are possible on this point but they are pretty irrelevant, I think.

Or...Gandalf just had a good PR publicist! :p