Hi guys.
I'm looking at starting a game set in Europe in the dark ages only with monsters myths and magic added in. The exact time is meant to be indistinct, particularly because the campaign may involve some jumping back and forth through time via fairy magic.
I'm still in the early stages and trying to settle on a system and looking for good dark ages adventures (which don't necessarily have to be for that setting).
Some game systems I am looking at so far include:
D&D 4e Feudal Lords (Alea Publishing)
Ars Magica
Dragon Warriors
HarnMaster
d20 Legends of the Dark Ages (RPG Objects)
d20 Medieval Players Manual + Relics & Rituals: Excalibur
Pendragon
Song of Fire and Ice (Green Ronin version)
My questions to all of you are:
1) What system would you recommend & how does this system compare to the others on my list that you have played?
2) Which dark age themed adventures would you recommend? Which ones are worth converting to other game systems?
You might also want to look at the Darklands CRPG for DOS, which delivers exactly what you talk about and might be worth some inspirations.
In regards of system, I've experienced similar settings in Vampire: Dark Ages (sucked massively)and Savage Worlds (worked okay, although it felt a bit too flashy for my idea for gritty darrrk ages when men were real men etc.)
There isn't anyway the one system that allows to do everything perfect - you should be more specific about what you want to get out for your game, what the musts are and where your dealbreakers lie.
I've also whipped up an 72h game on the base of Risus for Darklands'ish hexploration with closet-satanist hamlets, witch gathering places in the wilderness and all the other tropes, including a subsystem to generate area and fill it with content.
It's in German, but as this sub-system just spans 6 pages and consists mostly of random tables, I might translate it next week-end if you're interested. That should give you some adventure seeds at the very least.
I guess I don't have anything really specific I am looking for. In my minds eye I see the players being from a variety of backgrounds with at least one or two knights and at least one wizard type.
I'd like the game to include everything from political intrigue and romance to bloody battles and dungeon crawls. There will probably be some loose Arthurian themes, but the players will basically end up wandering most of ancient Europe. They will get to visit King Arthur's court at the height of its glory in one time and see the ruins of camalot overrun by monsters in another. In another time they might also get to meet up with Robin Hood and team up with his merry men to foil the evil Prince John. In another time and place they might get a chance to join Charlameign's paladins.
I will probably need some overarching plots to tie it all together, but right now I'm in an "if it sounds fun, lets throw it into the pot" stage. Hence the wide variety of systems under consideration.
So there are no wrong answers, this is all brainstorming, and sharing your own preferences for Dark Ages roleplaying.
Basically, I'm looking for the stregnths and weaknesses of my options before settling on the specifics of what I want out of my game.
Of the games you listed, Ars Magica (http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=AG0204) is the one that leaps out at me as being almost written for the purpose from the get-go. Take the setting and scroll the action back about 250 years, and you're good to go. The system is very workable, though it has more of an emphasis on magical resolution than physical combat resolution and is definitely more Narr than Sim, but you can look to AM-derived resources such as Rune (http://runegame.com/runerpg.php) for combat tweaks. (See the Jump Start Rules .PDF for all of the basics.) So, you have the Dark Ages, high magic, brutal combat, and monsters galore at your disposal. And all for free!
!i!
In regards of my preferences, I'd probably want to have a.) a more gritty game, where PCs are regularly munched and crunched and easily replaced and b.) to take advantage of the instable political landscape, where just two day trips from the emperors castle a vassal might be planning to overthrow him, and where he might be successful, and where a simple string of bad harvests might turn a major power-player in the area into the prey of the decade for all the neighbours. (The east expansion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostsiedlung) of the Holy Roman empire might be a prime example for such an opportunity.)
So, a lot of potential for sandbox play where PCs might achieve something big, but might also die to the blunt club of a random bandit just because of bad luck.
I'd probably also want to let faith play a major role, and to let it have some actual oomph mechanically, not just as fluff. This shouldn't be limited to full-blown clerics - every character and even lowly NPCs should have the potential to tap into the powers of faith, even if it might just be explained away as a psychological effect, or something very minor as boni to fame/reaction rolls/social rolls etc.
One also shouldn't forget to include the inversion of this, devil cults. I guess the desperation of a grittily colored DA combined with the intangability of celestial rewards might drive more then some people into stuff that actually seems to work and provides quick results, at least in a more fantasy settings where demons are real and can actually be encountered.
This isn't to say that religion has to be the main focus and has to be the main part of every character - actually, I'd guess a good share of folks would yet be short-sighted knaves who seek out the easy road without searching out devils either, sanctimonious who rather look to look faithful and to be known for it in their community, and of course folks who just forget the teachings when it's convenient, except for penance here and there to don't stray too far from the path to heaven.
One has to be careful however to stay clear from the tropes that seem to come automatically with such a set-up - greedy, faithless church officials, bloodthirsty and witch-burning inquisitors (who belong into a later age, not the dark ages, and haven't been overall that Torquemadaesque as popular culture claims), misunderstood satanists, and of course wise pseudo-Wiccan Gaia-worshipping pagan witches who are just being hated for being independently thinking and knowledgeable about healing herbs.
A few bits might be OK (there has been quite a bit of corruption and superstition in the Catholic church before the purges of the counter-reformation, and there might also be some Dr. Faustus fates among devil-cultists who originally intended well), but as soon as all religion in the setting looks like this, I'd probably leave the table, as a.) it's far, far divorced from historical reality and b.) sounds like wish-fulfillment for a counter-clerical GM who just wants to rub the players noses into The Truth(TM).
I'm not quite sure what exactly you mean by "Dark Ages". I mean, for me, that would mean the time between the collapse of the Roman Empire and the beginning of the 11th century, more or less. Axe-wielding pagan barbarian people roaming the continent looking for a homeland, founding future kingdoms, or pillaging for the hell of it: the Vikings, the Franks, the Visigoth, the Saxon, the Mongols, etc.. The closest thing to the well-known, plate mail-clad knight are probably the Byzantine Cataphracts, and they're anything but chivalric. For the greatest part of the age, building a multi-floor stone building is probably beyond the skill of most people.
At the same time, however, the specific examples you bring up pertain to the High Middle Ages - Robin Hood (and by association, King John and Richard Lionheart); the romanticized versions of Charlemagne and Arthur (the historical figures did live in the Dark Ages, but had pretty little to do with the image presented by literature. This is the age of knights, the crusades, and the building of huge castles and fancy cathedrals like the Notre Dame.
Of course, you're absolutely not constrained by historical accuracy; however, I personally think that these two ages have so different sensibilities and tropes that it would be hard to mix them: if you go with grim and gritty, then shining knights will feel out of place; if you go with chivalric, then the barbarians will.
Quote from: Premier;278875I'm not quite sure what exactly you mean by "Dark Ages". I mean, for me, that would mean the time between the collapse of the Roman Empire and the beginning of the 11th century, more or less.
I usually associate "Dark Ages" with the period from about 500-1000 AD, maybe stretching it back a couple of centuries earlier. Looking back on my earlier post, I think I fell into that Dark Ages/Middle Ages conflation. I should revise the post to say "...scroll the action back about 250 to 750 years..."
!i!
Dragon Warriors defualt setting is very much a Dark Ages one.
As it were, I myself am gearing up for a campaign set in a world influenced by the Dark Ages (and Antiquity, but that's neither here nor now). For what it's worth, I'll be happy to share a couple of practical choices and decisions I've made to facilitate the sort of "feeling" I wish to capture. Note that the game will be using houseruled AD&D 1E, so a few D&D-isms might creep in:
- A number of abilities taken for granted in standard 'Ye Olde Fantasy' are not available by default, and must be learned. Most notably, literacy, archery and (in certain cultures) horseback riding.
- Player characters are strongly expected to have at least some 'civilian' skills. The economical realities of the era do not lend themselves well to large standing armies of professional soldiers, nor to raiders who can supply themselves completely via their warlike activities. Most fighting men will be expected by the village to pull their weight when it comes to sowing, harvesting, fixing up the buildings and the like.
- No Common language that everyone conveniently speaks. Highly educated people (wizards in this case) will probably know one or several ancient languages (based on the historical role of Latin and Greek) with which they can communicate with each other. The common people, however, will either need to pick up the languages of neighbouring peoples (especially if they're trader, travellers or mercenaries), or stay home.
- Certain weapons and armour would feel out of place, so they're eliminated. No plate armour, the heaviest protection they can get is Roman-style Lorica Segmentata, and even that is rare. All the fancy renaissance polearms are gone. There are spears, longer pikes/sarissa/whatever, and bardiches which are basically axes with a very long haft. Similarly, two-handed (non-polearm) weapons such as great swords are rather rare, since constructing them with the necessary structural strength is beyond the skill of blacksmiths. They might exist, but are rare, excepting two-handed axes. Bowyery is also less developed, and I'm thinking of eliminating longbows altogether, leaving only (ordinary) bows and composite bows for exotic horseman nomads. Crossbows are also largely out, tolerated as representatives of the technological skill of ancient cultures and maybe highly advanced regions beyond the limits of the known world.
Quote from: ConanMK;278837I guess I don't have anything really specific I am looking for. In my minds eye I see the players being from a variety of backgrounds with at least one or two knights and at least one wizard type.
I'd like the game to include everything from political intrigue and romance to bloody battles and dungeon crawls. There will probably be some loose Arthurian themes, but the players will basically end up wandering most of ancient Europe. They will get to visit King Arthur's court at the height of its glory in one time and see the ruins of camalot overrun by monsters in another. In another time they might also get to meet up with Robin Hood and team up with his merry men to foil the evil Prince John. In another time and place they might get a chance to join Charlameign's paladins.
I will probably need some overarching plots to tie it all together, but right now I'm in an "if it sounds fun, lets throw it into the pot" stage. Hence the wide variety of systems under consideration.
So there are no wrong answers, this is all brainstorming, and sharing your own preferences for Dark Ages roleplaying.
Basically, I'm looking for the stregnths and weaknesses of my options before settling on the specifics of what I want out of my game.
Well, if you've got the same heroes jumping between King Arthur and Robin Hood, it sounds like you're looking for something more over-the-top and cinematic rather than gritty historical .
Personally, I ran a Vikings campaign for a while, and I've also played a number of games set in Harn (using HarnMaster and Burning Wheel). For the Vikings game, one of the things that I wanted to emphasize that was very distinct was that this was a rural society. That is a huge difference, really, from much of typical fantasy.
You never go into town to stay at the inn -- you stay at someone's house. You don't go into a shop and buy things -- you get it from someone. (There are no shops and no prices. There were coins, but most transactions didn't use them -- they were either gifts or barter.) And most importantly, characters didn't have differing professions and were never hired to do things. All the characters were farmers, and all the men were fighters. They had different but overlapping skills. They did things for the people they were loyal to, or they did favors for allies who would help them in return.
I used RuneQuest with the Vikings campaign pack and a number of house rules.
My game High Valor, is set in a fantasy world inspired by the Dark Age myths and legends. (With enough of my own spin to make it mine.)
It should be out soon, if you'd like to take a look at it--bear in mind its unedited, just plain text at this point, you'd be welcome to:
Here is an important snippet:
Possible Themes and Goals of High Valor
Anyone can become a hero.
Heroes may be asked to hunt down and slaying evil, dangerous monsters.
Heroes may be avenging kin who have been slain or wronged. Fulfilling inherited blood-feuds.
They may owe allegiance to a great lord (or lady) and do his or her bidding.
High Valor heroes may raid enemy lands, or raid enemy lands while facing greater trials of faith and will.
They may hire out as mercenaries.
They may join or beget expeditions of exploration and trade, or seek to conquer new lands.
They may be arranging plans to marry one's sons & daughters well. (Either following heritage demands of dowry, oaths, or following their individualistic drive to do right by their children.)
Demonstrating their verbal prowess through oration at official functions through storytelling, through singing or through games (riddles, word play, boasting)
Hunting great mythic or legendary beasts (Magical Stags, Manticores, Dragons, Trolls).
Pilgrimages to places renowned for the passing or acts of various Saints
Carrying treasure to one's lord or distributing it to one's followers.
Spreading one's fame and bringing glory to one's name, ones lord, or ones people.
Achieve respect and patronage of famed noblemen, learned sages, or ranking priests.
Improving one's status (thrall-->churl-->thane-->earl-->king).
Gaining followers and clients as ones status dictates.
Gain allies by making friends with valorous men and women
Showing up ones rivals.
Showing ones faith, valor or will through actions.
Fashioning a safe homestead, complete with a great hall free of the dark things which haunt Aeia.
Bring renown to one's lineage, tribe, clan, or band.
Make a showing against fell evils.
Die well.
If you like d20 system, the Mongoose Conan (a modified 3.5) would make a dark and gritting system with magic being uncommon. It has knights, barbarians, savagers, priests, thieves etc.
TT.
Quote from: ConanMK;2788141) What system would you recommend & how does this system compare to the others on my list that you have played?
2) Which dark age themed adventures would you recommend? Which ones are worth converting to other game systems?
I've used
Pendragon and
HeroQuest to run Dark Ages games. If you'd like to take a look at the tweaks I made, you can find them at http://pddarkages.pbwiki.com/ and http://hqdarkages.pbwiki.com/
I never used much in the way of published adventures for these games, but I stole a lot from books on folklore and history. You'll find that a lot of
Pendragon adventures are thinly veiled Dark Ages stories.
I read the thread title, and what flashed through my mind was, "You mean 1977?"
Quote from: Silverlion;278924My game High Valor, is set in a fantasy world inspired by the Dark Age myths and legends. (With enough of my own spin to make it mine.)
It should be out soon, if you'd like to take a look at it--bear in mind its unedited, just plain text at this point, you'd be welcome to:
Here is an important snippet:
Possible Themes and Goals of High Valor
Anyone can become a hero.
Heroes may be asked to hunt down and slaying evil, dangerous monsters.
Heroes may be avenging kin who have been slain or wronged. Fulfilling inherited blood-feuds.
They may owe allegiance to a great lord (or lady) and do his or her bidding.
High Valor heroes may raid enemy lands, or raid enemy lands while facing greater trials of faith and will.
They may hire out as mercenaries.
They may join or beget expeditions of exploration and trade, or seek to conquer new lands.
They may be arranging plans to marry one's sons & daughters well. (Either following heritage demands of dowry, oaths, or following their individualistic drive to do right by their children.)
Demonstrating their verbal prowess through oration at official functions through storytelling, through singing or through games (riddles, word play, boasting)
Hunting great mythic or legendary beasts (Magical Stags, Manticores, Dragons, Trolls).
Pilgrimages to places renowned for the passing or acts of various Saints
Carrying treasure to one's lord or distributing it to one's followers.
Spreading one's fame and bringing glory to one's name, ones lord, or ones people.
Achieve respect and patronage of famed noblemen, learned sages, or ranking priests.
Improving one's status (thrall-->churl-->thane-->earl-->king).
Gaining followers and clients as ones status dictates.
Gain allies by making friends with valorous men and women
Showing up ones rivals.
Showing ones faith, valor or will through actions.
Fashioning a safe homestead, complete with a great hall free of the dark things which haunt Aeia.
Bring renown to one's lineage, tribe, clan, or band.
Make a showing against fell evils.
Die well.
I don't know if this is the place, maybe you should open another thread or something, but I'd like to know more about your game. It sounds like something I might like. :)