So over here on this blog (http://www.1000d4.com/2013/02/14/how-true-are-your-d20s/), the authors repeated Lou Zocchi's infamous demo picture about stacking up a bunch of dice from different manufacturers to see if the resulting dice towers were of even height:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v198/Melan/dice-unified-final-smaller_zps1a30a973.jpg) (http://www.1000d4.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/dice-unified-final-big.jpg)
Those dice still stack up - and when they retested them with precision equipment, it turned out the standard deviation of their face width is only a half of Koplow, their closest competitor. This means that, as discerning gamers have already known for a long time, Gamescience stays the undisputed gold standard of diceness in gaming. :pundit:
Please, gamers that want to roll like Sauron use thorn dice:
(http://images1.sw-cdn.net/model/picture/674x501_126266_102638_1338413386.jpg)
Stack those up, baby.
Too bad the dice are always fucked up from where they clip them off the frame. I have two out of three d20s with a face that essentially can't be landed on; its not as big a deal with with the d4s - d12s.
The gem gamescience are really nice looking with their numbers filled in. I even kind of dig the opaque ones when carefully done.
Quote from: Angry_Douchebag;632027Too bad the dice are always fucked up from where they clip them off the frame. I have two out of three d20s with a face that essentially can't be landed on; its not as big a deal with with the d4s - d12s.
Take an X-acto knife. Place the blade horizontally, resting on one of the faces with the clip thing. Gently cut the clip crap off as you move the blade towards it. Go on the other face, place the blade horizontally, parallel to it, and do the same thing towards the clip. Repeat as necessary, until you have a nice clean angle in line with the faces.
My powder blue gamescience dice are royally fucked up. In addition to issues with the sprue, the facing numbers are so shallow they don't hold crayon.
not happy, Bob. Not. Happy.
Quote from: Benoist;632030Take an X-acto knife. Place the blade horizontally, resting on one of the faces with the clip thing. Gently cut the clip crap off as you move the blade towards it. Go on the other face, place the blade horizontally, parallel to it, and do the same thing towards the clip. Repeat as necessary, until you have a nice clean angle in line with the faces.
I've never had to do this with any Chessex dice I've bought.
Quote from: Benoist;632030Take an X-acto knife. Place the blade horizontally, resting on one of the faces with the clip thing. Gently cut the clip crap off as you move the blade towards it. Go on the other face, place the blade horizontally, parallel to it, and do the same thing towards the clip. Repeat as necessary, until you have a nice clean angle in line with the faces.
Yeah, I was able to do that with one and it worked great. The unfortunate problem with the other two was that when they were clipped at the factory, part of the die face broke off at the same time. One is missing the edge completely between two vertices, and the edge on another is badly messed up, too. Still I got a really cool opaque red set out of the sets I bought that I filled in with white.
edit:Also, the red set I only just bought a few months ago, the two gem sets I picked up at a con five or six years ago now; I'm not sure if it was a QC issue that's since been rectified.
Somewhat soon, we will be buying a 3d printer.
And you know one of the first things I am doing with that bad boy is printing dice. Dice with no spurs. Dice which are accurate down to 50 microns (50 microns = 0.05 mm = 0.00196850394 inches″). That, or down to 30 microns (we're undecided on which machine we're buying still).
Quote from: jeff37923;632033I've never had to do this with any Chessex dice I've bought.
Good on ya!
Quote from: Angry_Douchebag;632034Yeah, I was able to do that with one and it worked great. The unfortunate problem with the other two was that when they were clipped at the factory, part of the die face broke off at the same time. One is missing the edge completely between two vertices, and the edge on another is badly messed up, too. Still I got a really cool opaque red set out of the sets I bought that I filled in with white.
edit:Also, the red set I only just bought a few months ago, the two gem sets I picked up at a con five or six years ago now; I'm not sure if it was a QC issue that's since been rectified.
Yeah that's more problematic. I own about ... five sets, plus some d3, d5 and the like, and I have not run into a critical problem like that.
GamePseudoScience... not again :rolleyes:
I actually prefer the old low impact dice from the B/X sets. Gamescience are cool too. At least you can still color them yourself.
Quote from: Benoist;632049Good on ya!
Why, thank you!
Really, though, it is easy to find and purchase effective useful dice right from the box when you don't fall for a bullshit advertising gimmick.
My gamescience dice are so fucking full of flaws I don't even think they would stack.
Maybe in Ye Olde Zocchi days they were great, but the ones put out under the name now are pure fucking overpriced excrement.
It's completely irrelevant if they have flaws or not. Just use a dice cup (or your hands) and slam - don't roll - your dice down on the table surface. Any perceived effects of uneven weight distribution, rounded edges, irregular surfaces and whatnot will be cancelled.
It is true, the QA of the new Gamescience dice is not the same, HOWEVER, as I've said before, if you order order dice from Gamestation.net and they come fucked up, they will send you new ones.
Basically, I think a liberal replacement policy is standing in for eyeball inspection at the factory, but the end result is, all my GS dice are great, because any ones that aren't, I get new ones (they don't even want the old ones back).
Does that help you if you buy them from a FLGS or someplace else? No, and that's a problem, so I just order them direct and don't worry about it.
Quote from: jeff37923;632072Why, thank you!
Really, though, it is easy to find and purchase effective useful dice right from the box when you don't fall for a bullshit advertising gimmick.
I guess gamers are like dice: they come in all shapes and sizes. Personally, I don't have dice from a single manufacturer but a whole bunch of different ones, including Chessex AND GameScience sets. I like the feel of the GS dice. I like the way they roll. I like to paint the numbers myself. And shave the bits too. I like to paint minis and the like so, it's no biggie, for me. I certainly don't consider having been victim of some "bullshit advertising gimmick." *shrug* Yeah. Whatever.
The test was not neutral, in that the Gamescience dice were deliberately turned away from their sprue-faces.
The only good test for dice randomness is to roll the dice and record the numbers, lots and lots of times, and see if there's a statistically significant deviation from randomness. No other test will do.
No problem if you like Gamescience, of course, that's up to you, I'm not judging. I'm also not going to pay their inflated prices for unfinished dice.
Quote from: P&P;632117The only good test for dice randomness is to roll the dice and record the numbers, lots and lots of times, and see if there's a statistically significant deviation from randomness. No other test will do.
No problem if you like Gamescience, of course, that's up to you, I'm not judging. I'm also not going to pay their inflated prices for unfinished dice.
I've run tests like this on d20's and d6's. The gs d20's were more fair but not dramatically so. Their d6's, however, were the least fair of those I tested.
Quote from: mhensley;632167I've run tests like this on d20's and d6's. The gs d20's were more fair but not dramatically so. Their d6's, however, were the least fair of those I tested.
It would be interesting to see the results if you'd repeat those tests using a dice cup.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;632058I actually prefer the old low impact dice from the B/X sets. Gamescience are cool too. At least you can still color them yourself.
That little d20 of yours is practically round now dude...
Quote from: Benoist;632030Take an X-acto knife. Place the blade horizontally, resting on one of the faces with the clip thing. Gently cut the clip crap off as you move the blade towards it. Go on the other face, place the blade horizontally, parallel to it, and do the same thing towards the clip. Repeat as necessary, until you have a nice clean angle in line with the faces.
I tried this with my D24, which had a huge sprue chunk on a facing.
I got it down to a bump, and sanded it down a bit, but I was concerned with gouging the die face, so left a bit of a bump there.
I remain unconvinced that the deviation of other dice is a big concern to the average gamer. The numbers I've seen are in the 100's or 1000's of rolls, and I really don't give too much of a fuck about that.
Quote from: YourSwordisMine;632355That little d20 of yours is practically round now dude...
Old Brownie is retired. It doesn't get used in games anymore. I just keep it in the dice bag so all the other dice can absorb its awesomeness. :)
Oh, I'm a Gamescience man, for sure. I don't roll with any other brand. I purged my bags of all other dice some time ago (a few non-Gamescience survivors with sentimental value were removed to a smaller dice bag for safekeeping. I know it's all part of a dice fetish, but oh well.
I love getting a new set of dice, sitting down with my marker, and inking them. Perhaps it's because I order them from other companies than Gamescience, or I've just been lucky (the ones from Noble Knight might be pre-Gamestation, judging from package--their "ugly dice" set is a steal), but I've not had quality issues yet with them.
I am not a big fan of the game science dice personally.
Quote from: Benoist;632103I guess gamers are like dice: they come in all shapes and sizes. Personally, I don't have dice from a single manufacturer but a whole bunch of different ones, including Chessex AND GameScience sets. I like the feel of the GS dice. I like the way they roll. I like to paint the numbers myself. And shave the bits too. I like to paint minis and the like so, it's no biggie, for me. I certainly don't consider having been victim of some "bullshit advertising gimmick." *shrug* Yeah. Whatever.
Defensive much?
Quote from: jeff37923;632465Defensive much?
Offensive much?
Quote from: Benoist;632468Offensive much?
Apparently only to those whose personal identity is based on what brand of dice they use....:D
Quote from: jeff37923;632483Apparently only to those whose personal identity is based on what brand of dice they use....:D
Nah, see. Since that isn't my case, I can tell you you can come off as an asshat to other people too.
But don't we all at some point or other, heh? Just keep fucking that chicken, my friend. :D
Quote from: Benoist;632488Nah, see. Since that isn't my case, I can tell you you can come off as an asshat to other people too.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
Quote from: Benoist;632488But don't we all at some point or other, heh? Just keep fucking that chicken, my friend. :D
:popcorn:
Jeff, being an asshole to his peers? Must be a day of the week ending in "ay".
Quote from: Benoist;632030Take an X-acto knife. Place the blade horizontally, resting on one of the faces with the clip thing. Gently cut the clip crap off as you move the blade towards it. Go on the other face, place the blade horizontally, parallel to it, and do the same thing towards the clip. Repeat as necessary, until you have a nice clean angle in line with the faces.
Wouldn't that then ruin the Scientific Precision?
RPGPundit
Bah! All you Doubting Thomases will be left behind at the Dice Rapture™. :hand:
Quote from: RPGPundit;632805Wouldn't that then ruin the Scientific Precision?
RPGPundit
I don't know about "scientific precision", but you can do it properly and in fact, eliminate the problem of these little bits of plastic sticking out, which I guess would establish more precision if they were problematic in the first place.
Quote from: Melan;632809Bah! All you Doubting Thomases will be left behind at the Dice Rapture™. :hand:
:rotfl:
You owe me a monitor wipe.
Quote from: Melan;632809Bah! All you Doubting Thomases will be left behind at the Dice Rapture™. :hand:
You win the thread! :)
I haven't done my own empirical testing on the randomness of my GameScience dice, I do love them because of their texture and colour.
Quote from: Benoist;632811I don't know about "scientific precision", but you can do it properly and in fact, eliminate the problem of these little bits of plastic sticking out, which I guess would establish more precision if they were problematic in the first place.
Maybe YOU could do it properly.. I'd probably end up with a half a die.
RPGPundit
Speaking of dice fetishism, I stumbled on this Kickstarter for "precision machined RPG dice" (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/623394548/precision-machined-role-playing-dice-hyper-precisi?ref=live). Your choice of 1 of 7 metals; precise to 'exact tolerances'; laser-etched markings.
Those are freaking ugly, and not in a good way.
Quote from: K Peterson;635560Speaking of dice fetishism, I stumbled on this Kickstarter for "precision machined RPG dice" (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/623394548/precision-machined-role-playing-dice-hyper-precisi?ref=live). Your choice of 1 of 7 metals; precise to 'exact tolerances'; laser-etched markings.
Those need polishing. But I could go for a bronze set ...
Magnesium dice? I guess those would be useful if you get lost while gaming in the woods and need to start a fire? Just be careful to shave off all sides evenly.
Quote from: Melan;635583Those are freaking ugly, and not in a good way.
I agree.
But they're making titanium dice. I love titanium.
It's a good thing I'm not working full time or I would be sorely tempted to waste the better part of $100 on titanium dice.
Although I do see that they're putting a coating on the dice, so that would likely negate titanium's silky texture.
re. Magnesium dice; it actually makes sense to me, one of the negative points about metal dice is how heavy they are, so I woudl prefer magnesium dice to pretty much any other metal aside from titanium or (uncoated) bronze.
Plus, I know at least one person who purposely uses a magnesium pencil sharpener for the potential firestarter aspect.
They look dumb. And I wonder just what level of "precision" they are.
Quote from: RPGPundit;635883They look dumb.
I don't think they're "dumb" or "ugly". They're certainly not pretty dice, but I expect that people would buy them because they're machined, precision dice not because they're sparkly pretties. I find casino dice to be pretty damn ugly, but they serve a purpose.
QuoteAnd I wonder just what level of "precision" they are.
The Kickstarter advertises them as being "machined from solid raw materials to exact tolerances down to .001 of an inch". By comparison:
- Casino dice "must be exact to a tolerance of .0005".
- Gamescience dice have been measured with a side to side variation of .002" to .006"
I don't know what the tolerance of Chessex dice (or any other manufacturer's smooth-sided dice) are. A Google search mentioned .0625, or worse. Probably worse.
Seeing how I never have cash money riding on RPGs I can't bring myself to give much of a fuck about pinpoint dice accuracy. So long as dice roll low about as often as they roll high over time (remember, even a perfect random number generator will throw mad streaks from time to time - having a coin come up heads ten times in a row is exactly as likely as any other series of head/tails results, after all) and the individual dice don't look obviously warped and uneven I consider them to be accurate enough for my purposes.
Where I think Gamescience fetishism falls down is that scientific generation of perfectly random numbers may be the functionalistic purpose of dice in an RPG, but that isn't the only reason we use dice - the form of dice is just as important as the function, which is why we don't just all use dicerolling apps on our phones these days (despite the fact that these have the potential to be just as fair, if not more so, than physical dice). The job of a die isn't just to generate numbers; it also needs to provide a satisfying tactile experience when I roll it, and ideally it should also look appealing.
I typically use a set of steel dice (which I usually roll on a book or something to avoid hurting people's tables) - they look fantastic and they're incredibly satisfying to roll. Most of the dice brands in the OP might not be as physically precise as the Gamescience dice, but the Gamescience dice look butt-ugly compared to the others and they've always felt cheap and dissatisfying to me when I've used them.
(Plus, if you're worried about it, you can just not roll the same dice consistently every time - if you randomly select a different D20 from your bag of Chessex dice every time then for the most part any bias in the results from physical variations will balance out, because you're not consistently rolling the same dice each time and the physical variations themselves are just as random.)
(Also, is it just me or are the second set of Koplow dice measured in the OP actually vastly more consistent than the two brands of Gamescience dice shown?)
Quote from: Warthur;635905(Also, is it just me or are the second set of Koplow dice measured in the OP actually vastly more consistent than the two brands of Gamescience dice shown?)
(It isn't just you, but we don't want to offend the people who have already fallen for an advertising gimmick involving dice.)
I just don't like the feel of GS dice (I got them for DCC), as said I am not that worried if the rolls are a little skewed.
That and I did not enjoy clearing the bumps on the GS.
I really like the Chessex frosted dice. So much that I own five different sets. I have, of course, cherry picked the dice from each set that rolled higher numbers than average. There is something to 'skewed' dice. I mean admit it, every gamer you know has their favourites for that very reason.
Point of fact, I recently borrowed a green, speckled d20 for a couple of sessions of Pathfinder. My rolls were very consistent to say the least -- out of twenty-two rolls made during the second session, I had seven natural 20's and alot of 8's. And I was tossing that dice like it was a craps game, too. Oddly enough I don't remember ever seeing my friend use that die in the past. Its just been sitting in his dice stash all this time, waiting to be exploited.
Anyway, I thought for the next campaign I'd do something different. I bought six sets of inked Gamescience dice, plus alot of duplicates (d4s through d10s). Everyone will be ditching their dice, including my above-average-success-GM dice. We'll have our first 'fair dice' game, replete with higher than normal fails, I'm sure.
I agree GS dice are on the ugly side, but they must have improved quality control, because of the 80 or so dice that I have, I'm not seeing any of the excessive nibs or flashing that people have complained about. Maybe it's because they are inked. Yes you can see the break points, some more so than others, but some are so faint you really have to search to find them. I haven't seen the need to file down or cut away on any of them.
Other than the colours, my only disappointment lies with shape of the d4. The apexes are all blunted. I wanted the caltrops reminiscent of the blood prickers found the early TSR box sets.
Quote from: K Peterson;635895The Kickstarter advertises them as being "machined from solid raw materials to exact tolerances down to .001 of an inch". By comparison:
- Casino dice "must be exact to a tolerance of .0005".
- Gamescience dice have been measured with a side to side variation of .002" to .006"
I don't know what the tolerance of Chessex dice (or any other manufacturer's smooth-sided dice) are. A Google search mentioned .0625, or worse. Probably worse.
My real point is that unless you're betting $200 on each "to-hit" roll, precision doesn't actually matter beyond a certain basic minimum.
RPGPundit
Pretty much it, and I'll add that in my opinion people who carefully select unbalanced dice to get higher rolls in their elfgames need to get a life. It's their call (just as baking dice in the oven is), but I don't associate it with traits I want from people I play with.