TheRPGSite

From a thread I was surfing over at RPGnet:

QuoteOriginally posted by Ramien Meltides

Games Workshop is failing to succeed due to a number of reasons. As for my credentials - I am a GW gamer over over 12 years and worked at the GW US HQ in the Studio (I was not an order taker - I was in the middle of things happening on the creative/editing side of White Dwarf) for about 15 months.

GW is failing, that's plain to see. Fewer games being played in my area, fewer new gamers being brought into the fold, fewer painting competitions, fewer everything.

The question is, why?

Reason #1: Fire all the creative people.
GW's made it a habit in the last four years or so to purge themselves of valuable employees. Andy Chambers was one such, and there are other big-name developers who went as well, but I'm also talking about other folks who helped make GW succeed before. They got rid of the guy in charge of the Outrider program. They got rid of most of their events staff (and got rid of the last guy in charge of it recently, I'm not sure who replaced him). They went through several purges at the US HQ targeting marketing, editing, modeling support - no department was safe. I myself was cut along with 14 others, including some of their best modelers and painters who made the displays in White Dwarf and on the web so eye-catching and memorable.

Reason #2: Raise the prices sky-high.
GW's been through a period lately of price "adjustments" that have pushed their products right out of the "hobby" niche and into the "luxury hobby" niche. The price of a box of 10 space marines has increased something like 300% in the last five years. These price increases have pushed things to the point where you have to pay around $10 per model for an individual piece, when you need a minimum of 5 models to fill the unit (the example I am using here is the Wraithguard).

Reason #3: Make sure everyone knows you don't give a damn about the games.
GW's upper echelon made a decision sometime around 2001 that they would no longer sell games. GW was in the business, they decided, of selling miniatures (and paints, brushes, carrying cases, and modeling tools) - but not games. Therefore, everything began to revolve around selling the miniatures at the expense of the games themselves. Support was pulled from making the new and interesting games GW had been famous for in the past (blood bowl, necromunda, etc.) and focused instead on marketing. FAQs and errata became things of the past.

"We don't need FAQ's, because our games aren't the reason we're in business." They were heard to say over and over. Veteran gamers became frustrated with a rule set that badly needed attention. One reasonably proficient editor could have cleared up dozens of rules issues, but GW refused to address this problem. In fact, GW expressly came out and said "NO MORE FAQS" in 2006.

Reason #4: Make sure you don't give a damn what your customers or fans think.
GW made it a policy in the last several years to ignore and belittle any criticism from its loyal fanbase. The official GW forums, for instance, agressively deleted any critical comments, leaving only a "love fest" and a few unanswered questions. GW eventually got rid of its forums altogether in late 2006, preferring instead to carry on as if everything were just fine and dandy. Over in the UK, a similar condition existed, as the once-popular White Dwarf feedback forum was reduced to "positive comments only" and then eliminated altogether.

Reason #5: Take your flagship, internationally recognized magazine and turn it into crap.
White Dwarf has gone over 300 issues worldwide and is translated into quite a few different languages. It has gone through many changes over the years, but up until recently, it was a good magazine for a GW fan - battle reports, new rules, exciting fiction, backstory for the 40K and Warhammer universes, gorgeous paintjobs, and featuring armies played by other GW fans just like the reader. Unfortunately, GW decided that the magazine was not serving its purpose of selling miniatures. Therefore, the company made the following changes: No more rules in the magazine, ever. No more battle reports produced anywhere but in the UK. No more submissions by fans or freelancers - everything to be produced in house (by the reduced staff). No more fiction or backstory information. The US White Dwarf staff has struggled valiantly to try and carry on the previous tradition, going so far as to split the US edition into "US Content" and "International Content", but that effort has been curtailed as well. Now, the magazine is primarily a catalog, shilling paints, brushes, army cases, and miniatures with a few paltry pages dedicated to a UK-generated battle report or painting article.

There are more reasons - I could go on at length about the company's failures with its yearly worldwide campaigns, or how the chain stores strangle out FLGS competition. I could discuss the low pay, long hours, and upper management attitude. I could talk about how the UK management stifles anything not created in England. But all that's for another time.

GW's successes these days lie in their fiction arm - Black Library is doing fantastically well - their video games (Dawn of War, specifically) - and their miniatures still for the most part are very well sculpted and dynamic. What they're lacking is some good games to use those miniatures in, or at least well-supported games. They're getting their tails absolutely stomped over in Europe by Rackham's Confrontation game and in the US by Privateer Press, who seems determined to do right everything that GW has done wrong...and continues to do so.

When GW got rid of their fan forums, I was tempted to say that they've fallen into a death spiral. Time will tell.

If true then words are barely adequate in conveying the idiotic incompetence displayed by the upper echelons of GW. As a gamer I broke away from them around the time they stopped supporting WFRP and transformed White Dwarf into a glorified catalogue, but still. There's an enormous creative legacy within the company that certain parties seemed determined to smother into extinction. Of course, they're still a huge part of the gaming industry, and have more money than Croesus, but if this is what passes for corporate policy then I can't see them being around for more than a few years. One has to wonder at the real motives of those at the top.

Thoughts?

I never played the miniatures stuff since I hate paiting and paying for them. However once i went into my local GW interested in the 40K ccg, which I actually like, and was told they don't stock it.

Hmmmn.

Quote from: DrewOf course, they're still a huge part of the gaming industry, and have more money than Croesus

Ooh. Don't we read the classics. ;)

Interesting article, though. For my own part, I spent a long-time as a "Holy shit those are cool" type enthusiast, staring at their great minis and creative settings - 40K grabbed me from the first instant I saw it, and that love affair lasted until I discovered Necromunda, which was both more my speed and more my price range.

Some years later I got that life's first paycheck one summer, and I set off down to the local Games Workshop store to buy myself some gangers, paints, and whatnot. I walk in, walk around the shelves, and ask the clerk where I would find their Necromunda figs.

"Oh, Necromunda's been discontinued."
:eek:
"Yeah, we can't sell the minis we had in stock for it either."
:aaa:

They've never gotten a dime of my money. Even if they go under completely, it'll just make WFRP 2e a 'dead' game, and some people would sell it for cheap. :D

Quote from: DrewFrom a thread I was surfing over at RPGnet:




If true then words are barely adequate in conveying the idiotic incompetence displayed by the upper echelons of GW. As a gamer I broke away from them around the time they stopped supporting WFRP and transformed White Dwarf into a glorified catalogue, but still. There's an enormous creative legacy within the company that certain parties seemed determined to smother into extinction. Of course, they're still a huge part of the gaming industry, and have more money than Croesus, but if this is what passes for corporate policy then I can't see them being around for more than a few years. One has to wonder at the real motives of those at the top.

Thoughts?

Greed, they start to loose money so put a tighter strangle hold on things,
things get worse so they increase the strangle hold, their greed feed fear of the lose of money clouds their understanding so they will continue to strangle themselves to death,

You reap what you sow,

In the eyes of armchair quaterbacks, Games Workshop has now been self destructing for as long as I can remember.

They are gonna be right one day, probably, but 'even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day' was invented for situations like this.

Me? I think they do well because of the way they operate.






But jesus guys - get a new song. GW are a big evil company who don't care about poor fans who really care. We get it. I even understand how unfair it is that they don't listen to you. If you want to be a big fish in a small pond instead of a small fish in a big pond then GW probably isn't for you.

Remember kiddies - if you don't want it, don't buy it, but don't think you'll be missed if you don't.

See, you get morons who say things like:-

QuoteLast I heard, GW expected to keep their average customer for 2 years, so they weren't really that worried about chewing them up and spitting them out, because they already had the next generation coming in.

And we all see how well that works.  

YES! DUMBASS! WE DO SEE HOW WELL IT FUCKING WORKS, KNOBEND! ITS HOW GAMES WORKSHOP OPERATE DIPSHIT! YOU KNOW! GAMES WORKSHOP! BY FAR THE BIGGEST COMPANY IN MINIATURES GAMING! OPERATES A CHAIN OF SHOPS! HAS NEVER GONE BUST, WHICH IS SOMETHING DnD CAN'T SAY! ACUTALLY MAKES A DECENT PROFIT OUT OF GAMING! IF YOU DON'T OPERATE LIKE GW YOU SHOULD BE ASKING YOURSELF WHY!

MORON! FOOL! PILLOCK!

Quote from: Erik BoielleIn the eyes of armchair quaterbacks, Games Workshop has now been self destructing for as long as I can remember.

They are gonna be right one day, probably, but 'even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day' was invented for situations like this.

Me? I think they do well because of the way they operate.






But jesus guys - get a new song. GW are a big evil company who don't care about poor fans who really care. We get it. I even understand how unfair it is that they don't listen to you. If you want to be a big fish in a small pond instead of a small fish in a big pond then GW probably isn't for you.

Remember kiddies - if you don't want it, don't buy it, but don't think you'll be missed if you don't.

Yeah, but this is the first time I've joined the choir. ;)

The information presented in the comments I quoted seems pretty credible, and coincides with GW's announcement of shrinking profits and tumbling share prices. It's no secret that they aren't doing anywhere near as well today in terms of growth or even market retention.

Normally I'd just let stuff like this slide and wait to see what happens, but when what appears to be a genuine insight into the company's misfortunes appears then I tend to sit up and listen. For better or worse GW have been one of the constants of the international gaming scene for over 25 years, there's a huge body of work they can be justifiably proud of. Hearing things like this though casts real doubts in my mind as to whether the company can survive in the long term if it remains on its current trajectory.

Meh. It how they have always done things.

Charging to much and Not Listening To The Fans are, as near as I can, Why GW succeeds, not its problems.

Fans are stupid. Listening to them is stupid. You gotta figure out what people actually do, not what they say they do or wish they would do.

In short:- first, shoot all the trekkies.

--

GW has an enormous number of disgruntled ex-employees - in part because they really can say - if you don't like it quit - you are easy to replace.

This is no fun for the employees, and certainly something you should consider before working for them, but its also not acutally a bad way to run their business.

Just don't, y'know, work for them. Keep it as a hobby and let some other poor dumb schmuck figure out hes just another cog in the machine.

Quote from: Erik BoielleSee, you get morons who say things like:-



YES! DUMBASS! WE DO SEE HOW WELL IT FUCKING WORKS, KNOBEND! ITS HOW GAMES WORKSHOP OPERATE DIPSHIT! YOU KNOW! GAMES WORKSHOP! BY FAR THE BIGGEST COMPANY IN MINIATURES GAMING! OPERATES A CHAIN OF SHOPS! HAS NEVER GONE BUST, WHICH IS SOMETHING DnD CAN'T SAY! ACUTALLY MAKES A DECENT PROFIT OUT OF GAMING! IF YOU DON'T OPERATE LIKE GW YOU SHOULD BE ASKING YOURSELF WHY!

MORON! FOOL! PILLOCK!

Why don't you stop being so subtle and beating around the bush and just say whats on your mind,

:pundit:

Jeez dude up set much?
GW may have been the "BIGGEST COMPANY IN MINIATURES GAMING"
but that was then, what will be could be very diffirent

Quote from: pathfinderapbut that was then, what will be could be very diffirent

Meh. Its like waiting for the fall of the American Empire - It'll come, but it could take a couple of centuries, and theres no guarantee you'll like what comes next more.

Better to just not worry, and make hay while the sun shines.

But seriously, that thread has people calling GW a 'might have been'.

ARE THEY CRAZY OR JUST STUPID!

CHRIST, THATS SO FUCKING DUMB!

Quote from: Erik BoielleMeh. Its like waiting for the fall of the American Empire - It'll come, but it could take a couple of centuries, and theres no guarantee you'll like what comes next more.

Better to just not worry, and make hay while the sun shines.

But seriously, that thread has people calling GW a 'might have been'.

ARE THEY CRAZY OR JUST STUPID!

CHRIST, THATS SO FUCKING DUMB!

No, you have someone talking from the perspective of someone who has worked at GW, first hand knowledge, seen it from the inside out,
If he claims things there are wrong, how can you dispute this?, do you work there?

Quote from: Erik BoielleSee, you get morons who say things like:-



YES! DUMBASS! WE DO SEE HOW WELL IT FUCKING WORKS, KNOBEND! ITS HOW GAMES WORKSHOP OPERATE DIPSHIT! YOU KNOW! GAMES WORKSHOP! BY FAR THE BIGGEST COMPANY IN MINIATURES GAMING! OPERATES A CHAIN OF SHOPS! HAS NEVER GONE BUST, WHICH IS SOMETHING DnD CAN'T SAY! ACUTALLY MAKES A DECENT PROFIT OUT OF GAMING! IF YOU DON'T OPERATE LIKE GW YOU SHOULD BE ASKING YOURSELF WHY!

MORON! FOOL! PILLOCK!

heh!  I love this place.  Never the less, GW's profits just keep falling.  I think if they moved their target window up to 3 years retention they could probably turn that around with the extra $1000 per person they'd make.

It's pure greed.

I had considered getting into Warhammer but after seeing the prices of the miniatures I chose not too (Along with the fact that they change things to make past miniatures obsolete and whatnot).

It took awhile but now they have competition from other companies and their greed is coming back to bite them.

Serves them right

GW continues to be one of the strongest companies in gaming.  For one thing, it IS a company and not two dudes in a garage like half my favorite outfits in the game 'industry'.  On the other hand War Machine seems to be slowly replacing 40K as the game of choice for the people who dig that sort of thing.  At least locally.

I think it´s not wise to not actually support the game system underneath anymore.

Quote from: Erik BoielleIn the eyes of armchair quaterbacks, Games Workshop has now been self destructing for as long as I can remember.

My thought exactly.  Back in 1989-90, an acquaintence of mine was working for GW's North American operations out of Vancouver B.C.  He had a falling out with them and described almost the same situation that we read about in the quote.  Granted, he didn't predict their imminent doom, but here we are, almost 20 years later, and GW is still trying to kill itself despite their success.

!i!

At least in Germany, they are expanding. And loosened some of their rules: You are allowed to play with unpainted or partially painted minis now.

EDIT: But Confrontation is big here, really big. Gives them some trouble.

Quote from: SettembriniEDIT: But Confrontation is big here, really big. Gives them some trouble.

Are we discussing the German national character here, or is there a competing minis game I'm not familiar with?

!i!

Confrontation is a minis game by Rackham, a french firm. Very nice sculpts.

Take a look:

http://www.rackham-store.com/boutique_us/liste_rayons.cfm?code_lg=lg_us

My next big purchase will be oodles of AT-43 pre-painted sci-fi minis.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaAre we discussing the German national character here, or is there a competing minis game I'm not familiar with?

!i!

Hyuck hyuck hyuck.

Don't get me wrong.  I love Germans.  Really.  And their rather...direct...nature is one of the very things that endears them to me. :)

Oh, and Rackham.  Right.  I was more familiar with AT-43 for some reason, not Confrontation.

!i!

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Hyuck hyuck hyuck.

Got a chuckle out of that one myself. :D

Meanwhile, two inconsequential observations from the greatest minis ignorant in gaming (me):

1) GW have been dead to me ever since what they did to White Dwarf.

2) Holy SHIT, Rackham minis are AWESOME. Why do they not rule teh world yet? I hadn't heard of them until last year when they published some Dragon mini or other, and I was thinking, "why do people salivate over the WOTC dragons? This is the shit!"

If I were 15 again and had unlimited funds, Rackham and Privateer would pwn me.

PS: That should actually read: "If I were 15 again, had unlimited funds, could paint my way out of a wet paperbag, wouldn't suck at wargaming and weren't a sore loser..."

Rackham minis doesn't rule the world yet because their figures look like they were sculpted by Rob Liefield when he was too drunk to stand.  Some of us, lots of us prefer realistically proportioned and posed minis.  Even GW has come a long way towards more realistic figures in recent years.  The heads and hands stayed the same size but the figures got taller :D

I think Rackham are moving to prepainted plastics for confrontation as well as AT-43.

I gotta say, I think that this could be intersting. I know I'd have been much better off with prepainted minis in my youth - I can paint now (decently enough), but I sucked a lot and played with unpainted minis most of the time.

I wanna see what The Shop will do.

Is that the actual game board the figures are standing on?

http://www.rackham-store.com/boutique_us/fiche_produit.cfm?type=748&ref=ATSET01&code_lg=lg_us&pag=1&num=48

Oh man... and they ARE pre-painted. Once again I thank the good lord for my utter lack of wargaming skillz.

Too bad DP9 is dead. A Tribe 8 minis game by Rackham--even I would buy that.

I was reading the IHT Thursday and the business pages mentioned that GW had had another profits warning and was noting that investors were starting to abandon the company.

I have to admit, I hadn't known it was sufficiently big to merit that kind of coverage, but the coverage was far from positive.

I can't speak as to why, and Erik is correct that historically they have performed well, but they've had some serious profit warnings for a while now and personally I would short their stock rather than hold it.

@Erik:

Sure, GW bashing is mostly Swine-talk. And they are succesful for a reason. But even as a house and promotional magazine, White Dwarfs quality is totally ridiculous these days. The battles don´t match the rules. The paintings aren´t up to say, 2003. There´s nothing inspiring in them, not even inspiring to buy more stuff.

And they stopped making fucking FAQs.

I´d say:  GW should go back to the quality of shrewd business savvyness of the nineties. Right now, they steer themselves into trouble. Because they aren´t investing into the market they used to. They are losing their Mojo, the exact Mojo that made them immune to Swine-Talk in former years.

@Confrontation: The minis are way too "french-weird" for me, as the GW minis are way too "british-fascist-porn" for me (nowadays, that is. When I was fourteen...).

The above mentioned article reminds me strikingly of TSR in its late days.

GW has done all kinds of boneheaded moves over the years, and while some of this article could be put aside as the rantings of a disgruntled employee, the article also omitted the biggest flaw (from a business perspective) that GW committed: Its trying to be both a retailer and a wholesaler.

Likewise, from the pov of the RPG world, they're massive dicks for having failed to support the WFRP2e game in any way. Had GW backed them up, WFRP2e might have become a really serious competitor to D&D, especially in Europe. But they refused to even sell it in their GW stores.  I mean, that's fucked up: You cannot buy the Warhammer RPG in Games Workshop Stores!

RPGPundit

Especially as they could even sell more minis via the RPG. Long-term customer relation via Sourcebooks and novels and personal history. It could smash D&D in Europe, be the D&D here, if done shrewdly. But the recent GW seems to lack vision and shrewdness.
And the recent Edition of WHFRP wouldn´t lend itself well to it either, I´d argue.

I think not doing stupid stuff like wasting shelf space that could be selling minis on RPGs that is part of the reason that GW, unlike TSR, are still in business.

You also can't get rotten haddocks in GW stores.

Honestly dude, if GW make boneheaded moves what does that make the rest of the 'industry'?

There is no industry.

Quote from: RPGPunditYou cannot buy the Warhammer RPG in Games Workshop Stores!

RPGPundit

 Here in the US the GW store employees have a big "It's NOT role-playing" vibe going on in the few GW stores I entered.

It's ironic because GW stores carry Blacklibrary fiction books (wasting shelfspace on non mini items) - but not the black industries (a division of the black library) WHFRP RPG.

It's doubly ironic because the background of WHFRP was "updated" to match the current state of the wargame. Much to the horror of the origional fan base, in an attempt to draw in new blood from the minis game.

 Yet it's not being sold or pushed in any way to the one group who might actually care that the background was updated for them.


.

You can't get Dawn of War in GW stores either.

And yet it still sells in the millions...

The original WFRP fanbase was a half dozen crotchety old men on Strike to Stun. Not marketing to huge, untapped markets like that is another reason GW do so well.

Actually, I think WFRP2 goes to far to appease the trekkies and not enough to appeal to the wider Warhammer fanbase.

You know, all the people who actually like the little men instead of people who don't like GW very much...

WFRP (ESPECIALLY v2) has very little to do with warhammer as defined in the wargames and novels and whatnot.

Quote from: RPGPunditThe above mentioned article reminds me strikingly of TSR in its late days.

GW has done all kinds of boneheaded moves over the years, and while some of this article could be put aside as the rantings of a disgruntled employee, the article also omitted the biggest flaw (from a business perspective) that GW committed: Its trying to be both a retailer and a wholesaler.

Likewise, from the pov of the RPG world, they're massive dicks for having failed to support the WFRP2e game in any way. Had GW backed them up, WFRP2e might have become a really serious competitor to D&D, especially in Europe. But they refused to even sell it in their GW stores.  I mean, that's fucked up: You cannot buy the Warhammer RPG in Games Workshop Stores!

RPGPundit

You're right. WFRP2e COULD have been a serious contender to D&D, but GW blew it. The game shares many of the same fantasy tropes of D&D, with the whole hobbit, elf, dwarf, orc thing that people love, yet it retains its own special vibe. Plus, GW has more marketing muscle than most other game companies (other than WoTC). It would have been a simple matter for them to pimp the Hell out of the rpg. Doing so would have reinforced the IP of their other non-rpg games.

GW didn't really market the rpg at all, so yeah, they really dropped the ball on this one.

See? Roleplayers are stupid. And possibly dilusional.

This is why listening to your fans is tantermount to corporate suicide.

If that dwarf on the cover hadn't had a mohawk (and sunglasses???), and if the German names weren't so silly, I'd probably be playing WHFRPG. But as things stand, no way.

Quote from: Erik BoielleSee? Roleplayers are stupid. And possibly dilusional.

This is why listening to your fans is tantermount to corporate suicide.

Excuse me, junior? Did I just hear some comments from the peanut gallery over here?  :)

Look, man....spreading their IP over several different types of games is just common sense. OBVIOUSLY, it isn't the Warhammer rpg alone that would make GW strong. GW will always make more money from minis, and potentially from computer games. The strength of Warhammer is in its IP. The rpg could potentially act as a catalyst for improving sales for their minis. There IS gamer overlap between rpgs and wargames, after all.

Hell, ONE shelf in each of the GW stores devoted to their rpgs, and putting in a little rpg advertising on their part, would have made a difference in bridging the popularity gap between the Warhammer and D&D rpgs (and the Warhammer rpg is still popular anyway). That ONE shelf in an entire GW store is not going to demolish the profits of the store. They already sell Warhammer novels there, right? ONE shelf devoted to rpgs is just reinforcing the strength of their IP.

By the way, does GW sell any of their Warhammer computer games at their stores? :confused:  If not, they should consider it. :)

Well, I see that Eric has gracefully taken the mantle of being our resident unheilig.

Poor little crybaby.

Quote from: RPGPunditLikewise, from the pov of the RPG world, they're massive dicks for having failed to support the WFRP2e game in any way. Had GW backed them up, WFRP2e might have become a really serious competitor to D&D, especially in Europe. But they refused to even sell it in their GW stores.  I mean, that's fucked up: You cannot buy the Warhammer RPG in Games Workshop Stores!

I've been saying this for a while now. They should have promoted the living shit out of it, backed it up with quality prepainted plastic figures a la WotC and emphasised it's ties with the war game. The trouble is they're so desperate to hold on to miniature sales that they now see anything rpg-related as a direct threat to miniatures and paint, little realising that if you can score roleplaying customers at a young enough age you could well have them for life. They need to think beyond this 'teen market only' crap and consider the potentially huge customer base that moves on from the wargame and is completely uncatered for.

It's obvious that the current business model just isn't working, only time will tell if their egos can acommodate the idea that they're fucking this one up badly.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityIf that dwarf on the cover hadn't had a mohawk (and sunglasses???), and if the German names weren't so silly, I'd probably be playing WHFRPG. But as things stand, no way.

If that's all that's holding you back then you really ought to give it a try. Seriously, Dwarven mohawks and funny place names account for about 0.001% of what the game is actually about.

And there aren't any sunglasses on either editions cover.

Damnit! Theres a Dork Tower comic I always want to post when this comes up.

The shoutly little one is lecturing a FLGS owner on how to run his shop:-

It goes

'YOU SHOULD OFFER DISCOUNTS LIKE STORE X!'

'You mean the store that went out of business last week?'

'YOU SHOULD PROVIDE GAMING SPACE LIKE STORE Y!'

'They have been out of business for three years'

'YOU SHOULD...'

etc.

Unfortunatly, I never seem to be able to find it.

Quote from: Erik BoielleUnfortunatly, I never seem to be able to find it.

That's a shame. It would have elevated your contribution to this thread even higher.

Sorry dude, GW may be having issues (I mean, they do every once in a while - usually they fire some people and raise their prices and it goes away) but anyone who thinks it would HELP for them to piss away money marketing an RPG is dreaming.

Thats just the way it is. You don't have to like it, or think it is fair, but there it is.

Erik

The business pages of the IHT and the analysts advising shorting the stock, are they disgruntled fans also?

Companies in good health do not issue successive profits warnings.

Investors didn't rate them historically because they were fans but because they were profitable.  Now, they're not.

Quote from: Erik BoielleSorry dude, GW may be having issues (I mean, they do every once in a while - usually they fire some people and raise their prices and it goes away) but anyone who thinks it would HELP for them to piss away money marketing an RPG is dreaming.

Like I said, there's a vast untapped market of ex-wargamers out there who GW aren't catering to. Marketing in this case would simply be devoting some shelf space, talking it up in-store and running a few demos. It needn't cost an arm and a leg.

QuoteThats just the way it is. You don't have to like it, or think it is fair, but there it is.

In most cases I'd agree, but GW are in the unique position of having hundreds of dedicated stores frequented by customers who've already bought into the Warhammer mythology. It's not like someone would be trying to spring an all-new paradigm on them, especially given the abundance of fiction and setting material that sells so well. I'd even go as far to say that it's a golden opportunity for revitalising the rpg hobby. And lets face it, their current model just isn't working for them in the same way any more.

QuoteThe business pages of the IHT and the analysts advising shorting the stock, are they disgruntled fans also?

Yeah, but do you think it would help to be nicer or sell RPGs or do any of the shit the AQs here think they should?

For instance:

QuoteLike I said, there's a vast untapped market of ex-wargamers out there who GW aren't catering to.

Bullshit.

Sorry dude, after a while you just get old and no one cares about you any more.

Quote from: Erik BoielleBullshit.

Any more pearls of wisdom to be found in your scathing rebuttal?

Thought not.

Quote from: DrewAny more pearls of wisdom to be found in your scathing rebuttal?

Thought not.

How about you invest your life savings on that bet.

Go on. Put your money and your kids future where your mouth is.

I'll be waiting here with the popcorn when you lose it all.

Quote from: Erik BoielleHow about you invest your life savings on that bet.

Go on. Put your money and your kids future where your mouth is.

I'll be waiting here with the popcorn when you lose it all.

Your challenge would only be in the slightest bit appropriate if you asked me to bet a tiny fraction of my annual income, as that's all it would cost GW to promote WFRP.

Still. Nice try.

Quote from: DrewAny more pearls of wisdom to be found in your scathing rebuttal?

Thought not.

It's not a rational behavior anyway, birthed as it is more from insecurity, fear, and guilt than any logical consideration.

There's a wierd embattled mindset to the diehard GW fan that's not entirely dissimilar from that of Palladium fans, the end product of being hated and abused both by the company they claim to love, and the rest of folks who're no longer fans.  "I still love him, even though he beats me."

I think it also comes from that price point, from having spent such an ungodly amount of money on the things, and not wanting to admit that maybe that wasn't such a good idea, that the company they've poured thousands of dollars into would rather them dead, and the rest of the gaming community just sees them as patsies, too stupid to realize that their loyalty is given out foolishly.  

So they go apeshit over the slightest hint of suggestion that their golden calf might be tarnishing.  In several cases on RPGnet, unheilig and his posse even deliberately tried to get threads like these banned or shunted off to smaller forums where no one would read them.

It all sort of has the ring of the patriot in the totalitarian state.

Quote from: J ArcaneIt's not a rational behavior anyway, birthed as it is more from insecurity, fear, and guilt than any logical consideration.

There's a wierd embattled mindset to the diehard GW fan that's not entirely dissimilar from that of Palladium fans, the end product of being hated and abused both by the company they claim to love, and the rest of folks who're no longer fans.  "I still love him, even though he beats me."

I think it also comes from that price point, from having spent such an ungodly amount of money on the things, and not wanting to admit that maybe that wasn't such a good idea, that the company they've poured thousands of dollars into would rather them dead, and the rest of the gaming community just sees them as patsies, too stupid to realize that their loyalty is given out foolishly.  

So they go apeshit over the slightest hint of suggestion that their golden calf might be tarnishing.  In several cases on RPGnet, unheilig and his posse even deliberately tried to get threads like these banned or shunted off to smaller forums where no one would read them.

It all sort of has the ring of the patriot in the totalitarian state.

Yeah, being asked to bet my life savings on the outcome of a strategy GW are steadfastly refusing to employ is certainly one of the loonier challenges I've had online.

I've no idea what Erik's real beef is, but I'm pretty much done with him in this thread.

I note Erik is ignoring my points on business page and analyst's comments.

Erik has always had problems responding to inconvenient facts.

Quote from: BalbinusI note Erik is ignoring my points on business page and analyst's comments.

Erik has always had problems responding to inconvenient facts.

Quote:
The business pages of the IHT and the analysts advising shorting the stock, are they disgruntled fans also?  


Yeah, but do you think it would help to be nicer or sell RPGs or do any of the shit the AQs here think they should?

For instance:


Quote:
Like I said, there's a vast untapped market of ex-wargamers out there who GW aren't catering to.  


Bullshit.

Sorry dude, after a while you just get old and no one cares about you any more.

--

I THINK GWs issues relate to the fact that they just arn't growing anything like as fast as they were when the Lord of the Rings stuff was doing really well on the back of the movies, and that they haven't grown in the US as fast as they have been promising for a while.

I don't think that this has anything to do with them ignoring whinging old ex fans or their SOP (the afore mentioned being bastards).

Quote from: BalbinusI note Erik is ignoring my points on business page and analyst's comments.

I think he's of the opinion that if everyone just shut up and let GW take care of business then it'll all work out somehow. Because of course, as "fans", we have nothing valuable to contribute whilst he does.

It's rare that I see someone trying so hard to stifle discussion, on a message board of all places.

Quote from: DrewBecause of course, as "fans", we have nothing valuable to contribute whilst he does.

If you think GW pushing roleplaying games would be a sensible business decision you don't have anything valuable to contribute.

Might as well rate the superhunks.

Quote from: DrewI think he's of the opinion that if everyone just shut up and let GW take care of business then it'll all work out somehow. Because of course, as "fans", we have nothing valuable to contribute whilst he does.

It's rare that I see someone trying so hard to stifle discussion, on a message board of all places.

It's what rpg.net banned him for, he did the exact same thing defending Cyberpunk v.3.

His credibility suffered, prior to his banning, when it came  out he was aggressively shouting down critics but hadn't actually seen the game yet.  He was making up stuff so he could defend it sight unseen.

Fuck knows why, it's just something he does.

Quote from: BalbinusIt's what rpg.net banned him for, he did the exact same thing defending Cyberpunk v.3.

His credibility suffered, prior to his banning, when it came  out he was aggressively shouting down critics but hadn't actually seen the game yet.  He was making up stuff so he could defend it sight unseen.

Fuck knows why, it's just something he does.

Some people just hate being told when they are obviously talking crap.

God dammit! Bloody Mike had been saying since bloody CP2020 stopped what he was going for with V3!

It is not my fault that some stupid people hadn't read the interviews, didn't understand them, thought Maximum Mike was lying, didn't buy anything for CP2020 after the core book, or exercised really goddam selective memory about what was in them.

Christ! I was right! I knew what I was talking about! I had done the research! I had followed developement with interest! I had tracked down available information and analysed it correctly! It does happen! Maybe not to you but it does!

Quote from: BalbinusIt's what rpg.net banned him for, he did the exact same thing defending Cyberpunk v.3.

His credibility suffered, prior to his banning, when it came  out he was aggressively shouting down critics but hadn't actually seen the game yet.  He was making up stuff so he could defend it sight unseen.

Fuck knows why, it's just something he does.

I just ran a search on his name in Trouble Tickets.

Hoo shit, now I get it.

Quote from: J ArcaneSo they go apeshit over the slightest hint of suggestion that their golden calf might be tarnishing.  In several cases on RPGnet, unheilig and his posse even deliberately tried to get threads like these banned or shunted off to smaller forums where no one would read them.

It all sort of has the ring of the patriot in the totalitarian state.

Okay, that's a bit of bullshit right there.  Unhelig went off GW and even anti GW for a whole month and a half once.  :D  I wish I'd bookmarked the damn thing.  I think he's right to be pissed off at people with nothing better to do than thread crap on fan discussions.

I mean, I've probably got $2500 in GW product and if someone starts a "Should I Get Into Warhammer" thread I'll be first in line to say "Not if you're sane or financially responsible."  Having just started a new Bretonian army I can't claim to be either.  (I should've gone Bretonian a long time ago)  'lig got pissed at me many times for suggesting cheap alternative lines of miniatures too.

But all told, I can't blame any fan who hates thread crapping in fan threads.  I mean, if someone asks if they should play D&D or HARP or writes an extended rant on why people who hate D&D (like myself, good grief and people accuse GW of being evil!) are all wrong minded infidels.  Hell yes, I'll post a scathingly silly over reaction.  But if guys are talking about the game and such.  Nope, I try not to do that.  It's rude.

QuoteOkay, that's a bit of bullshit right there. Unhelig went off GW and even anti GW for a whole month and a half once.  I wish I'd bookmarked the damn thing. I think he's right to be pissed off at people with nothing better to do than thread crap on fan discussions.

someone started a thread almost exactly like this one, only reporting an actual Games Workshop press release about their financial difficulties, and 'lig and Doghooter spent the entire fucking thing crowing about how the thread shouldn't be allowed in Other Games.  They eventually got it locked if I recall correctly.

QuoteI think he's right to be pissed off at people with nothing better to do than thread crap on fan discussions.

Yeah, this is the thing.

I just like the damn toys. You will be far happier if you make your peace with Games Workshop being Games Workshop - no, they don't care about you, and frankly caring about you would be bad for their business.

Now, can you just shut the fuck up and let people who haven't burned out yet enjoy it?











Also - I can't find my IPod. Where the fuck is my IPod. It is YOUR FAULT I can't find my IPod.

errr...ipod...what ipod?...this ipod?...no no no...this is my ipod...they just look alike...they all look alike really...spent all my money on games workshop and couldn't afford one?  Yeah...okay you got me...keep your damn ipod...it's the wrong size to use as a movement tray anyhow...I was just checking...honest...fricken' lance formation...grumble...grumble...grumble...

.

QuoteTotal size of worldwide tabletop RPG business in 2006:

~$80-$100 million (retail sales)

Total revenue generated by Games Workshop in 2006:

~$237 million (that's GAW revenue, not retail, but part of their revenue is at full retail. Actual retail sales figure is probably about $350 million)

Games Workshop is the largest and most successful publisher in hobby gaming, except in outlier years when a Pokemon or Yu-Gi-Oh! temporarily inflates the figures of Wizards of the Coast or Upper Deck.

When they make their next report, we anticipate that they'll indicate 2007 revenues declined to around $210 million, still about twice the size of Wizards of the Coast.

GAW has, over the past 20 years, been the best managed company in hobby gaming, showing incremental year-over-year growth whilst its competition has engaged in a series of roller-coaster business cycles (and an entire category, tabletop RPGs, has melted down).

GAW has licenses in place for both Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40K for MMORPGs with credible publishers which mean they'll get most of the benefits with none of the risks (the estimated investment in the two games by EA and THQ exceeds $100 million).

Its very hard to argue that GW has made any significant errors in its business.

They're having problems now, but those problems are far from unfixable.

Ryan
__________________
----------------
Ryan S. Dancey

Or, in short -

Dear armchair pundit.

You don't know shit, and you are talking crap. STFU. Noob.

(I mean, he may be Ryan Dancey, but he bought TSR. What have you done recently?)

Quote from: J ArcaneWell, I see that Eric has gracefully taken the mantle of being our resident unheilig.

Christ, the fact that I know who you're talkin' about and that I've never actually participated in any discussions with him, tells me I've been lurking around message boards, too damn much.

Regards,
Davd R

Quote from: David RChrist, the fact that I know who you're talkin' about and that I've never actually participated in any discussions with him, tells me I've been lurking around message boards, too damn much.

Regards,
Davd R

Well, you can take comfort in the fact that unheilig's monstrous ego, bully tactics, and tendency to form little cults around him makes it rather hard NOT to notice him.

uhm yeah, 'cause that really raises the level of discussion and makes you right about every thing.

I don't always agree with Unhelig or his attitude but honestly, any discussion of who started crapping on who first at rpg.net seems to be a very pointless topic.

We get it, you don't like Unhelig, fine.  Now talk about something we actually care about.

Quote from: David Johansenuhm yeah, 'cause that really raises the level of discussion and makes you right about every thing.

I don't always agree with Unhelig or his attitude but honestly, any discussion of who started crapping on who first at rpg.net seems to be a very pointless topic.

We get it, you don't like Unhelig, fine.  Now talk about something we actually care about.

Well, this thread was doomed to be dull as dishwater the moment Eric showed up.  I really didn't care much to hear the same "LALALALALA! I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" I got so tired of on RPGnet.  I brought up unheilig because he was part of a similar cadre of self-appointed convo police on the other site.  

Maybe if fucksticks like Eric weren't so insecure that even the vaguest hinting that Games Workshop is anything but the Great and Allpowerful Leader who Will Lead Us to The Promised Land sent them into a frenzied attempt to shout it down lest their perfect image of the Great And Glorious Future prove to have a bit of a chink in it, it might actually be half way possible to have a genuinely intelligent conversation on the subject.

But until that magical day should arrive on this Earth, I will continue to make the best of matters by amusing myself at the expense of the delusional.

Does that meet with your approval, Commisar?

Not really.  Now if you were talking about Wizards of the Coast and D&D I'd totally agree with you.  Is there an I'm a complete and utterly morally bankrupt hypocrit smiley.  I seem to be needing one :D

This thread has descended into the most depraved depths of shitassery, but

Quote from: Erik BoielleThe original WFRP fanbase was a half dozen crotchety old men on Strike to Stun. Not marketing to huge, untapped markets like that is another reason GW do so well.

is the funniest fucking thing I've read all week.

Good lord, I had no idea little pewter* figurines could incite such passion.

*Tin?

That's because these so-called pewter (tin?) figures are the symbolic representation of gamers :raise:

Regards,
David R

Gee, look at my current name level. I wonder if there's a GW apothecary mini. It would have to be a gnome, though. Everyone knows that all apothecaries are gnomes.

The last time a gnome was seen in a GW product was the late eighties.  Rumour has it they were eaten by the tyranids.

Quote from: BalbinusIt's what rpg.net banned him for, he did the exact same thing defending Cyberpunk v.3.

His credibility suffered, prior to his banning,

For defending Cyberpunk V3 it's not a surpise his credibility has suffered.

Quote from: pathfinderapGreed, they start to loose money so put a tighter strangle hold on things,
things get worse so they increase the strangle hold, their greed feed fear of the lose of money clouds their understanding so they will continue to strangle themselves to death,

You reap what you sow,

Sounds like a certain recording industry association here in the United States...

QuoteWFRP (ESPECIALLY v2) has very little to do with warhammer as defined in the wargames and novels and whatnot.

That´s pretty right.

Again, Erik:

I´m not saying GW should give fuck about some old fatbeards. They should do, what is economically sound. Which they didn´t in the last years.

Now, they can afford to loose that much. They are big and professional. But they are in a crisis. Period.

Quote from: SettembriniThat´s pretty right.

Again, Erik:

I´m not saying GW should give fuck about some old fatbeards. They should do, what is economically sound. Which they didn´t in the last years.

Now, they can afford to loose that much. They are big and professional. But they are in a crisis. Period.

Indeed. All that their current revenues indicate is that they have the capital to dig themselves out their current hole, if they smarten up. Bloody-mindedly pushing on with their curret policies in the hope that everyone will eventually come back to their way of thinking is pretty unwise, though. Shrinking profits of the magnitude quoted above spells real trouble, especially when coupled with the corporate mentality I quoted in my opening post.

The thing is I like Games Workshop, or at least their intellectual property. I don't want to see them go the way of the dodo due to mismanagement, it'd be one of the great tragedies of gaming if narrow-sighted short term money grabbing wrecked everything.

Yeah, they should return to longsighted-strategic money grabbing. They were good at that.

I don't begrudge them trying to turn a profit, but when it's done at the expense of the entire company and results in forum closure, seemingly random sackings and an anti-errata policy then my attitude swiftly changes.

Quote from: Drew... it'd be one of the great tragedies of gaming if narrow-sighted short term money grabbing wrecked everything.

One of many. :brood:

Quote from: Erik BoielleYeah, this is the thing.

I just like the damn toys. You will be far happier if you make your peace with Games Workshop being Games Workshop - no, they don't care about you, and frankly caring about you would be bad for their business.

Now, can you just shut the fuck up and let people who haven't burned out yet enjoy it?

But you know what would be an even better idea?, you shut the Fuck up :D

Anybody would think this whole thread was set up to be some sort of personal attack on you, by your reaction,  

Quote from: Erik BoielleAlso - I can't find my IPod. Where the fuck is my IPod. It is YOUR FAULT I can't find my IPod.

Yeah you're right, you can find it up your butt, next time don't piss me off

Quote from: Erik BoielleThe original WFRP fanbase was a half dozen crotchety old men on Strike to Stun. Not marketing to huge, untapped markets like that is another reason GW do so well.

Actually, I think WFRP2 goes to far to appease the trekkies and not enough to appeal to the wider Warhammer fanbase.

You know, all the people who actually like the little men instead of people who don't like GW very much...

WFRP (ESPECIALLY v2) has very little to do with warhammer as defined in the wargames and novels and whatnot.

I seem to recall after you posted a series of drive-by trolls at StS, it was revealed that you've never actually played WFRP and really don't know anything about the game.

Played a year long campaign, and a number of failed starts at The Enemy Within old son.

You old fatbeard you.

I stand by my opinion that the best thing that could happen to WFRP is to forget you ever existed.

Maybe then they could produce some actual warhammer material.

Quote from: SettembriniEspecially as they could even sell more minis via the RPG. Long-term customer relation via Sourcebooks and novels and personal history. It could smash D&D in Europe, be the D&D here, if done shrewdly. But the recent GW seems to lack vision and shrewdness.
And the recent Edition of WHFRP wouldn´t lend itself well to it either, I´d argue.

Except that minis is a much, much better business to be in than RPGs.

It's like a diamond store also selling aspirin and batteries. Sure, more people need those than diamonds, but that's not their market.

Quote from: Erik BoiellePlayed a year long campaign, and a number of failed starts at The Enemy Within old son.

You old fatbeard you.

I stand by my opinion that the best thing that could happen to WFRP is to forget you ever existed.

Maybe then they could produce some actual warhammer material.

Oh right, the solo campaign where you played the King of Bretonnia with your half-retarded brother GMing for you. You couldn't get Enemy Within off the ground? One of the most GM-friendly campaigns ever, which practically runs itself? No wonder you're bitter.

I once appreciated your quirky, obtuse posting style, but somewhere along the way you must've suffered a medical trauma that turned you into a spastic, annoying shitmouth. GW really doesn't need apologists like you fighting their battles for them.

Quote from: Erik BoielleYES! DUMBASS! WE DO SEE HOW WELL IT FUCKING WORKS, KNOBEND! ITS HOW GAMES WORKSHOP OPERATE DIPSHIT! YOU KNOW! GAMES WORKSHOP! BY FAR THE BIGGEST COMPANY IN MINIATURES GAMING! OPERATES A CHAIN OF SHOPS! HAS NEVER GONE BUST, WHICH IS SOMETHING DnD CAN'T SAY! ACUTALLY MAKES A DECENT PROFIT OUT OF GAMING! IF YOU DON'T OPERATE LIKE GW YOU SHOULD BE ASKING YOURSELF WHY!

MORON! FOOL! PILLOCK!

Neither D&D, nor any company who has published D&D, has ever gone bust.

Who's the pillock now?  Don't you ever get tired of saying such retarded things?  Fucking clownshoe.

KoOS

Meh - being forced in to a humiliating sale to WotC through genuine boneheaded business dealings* is close enough.

Try harder.

*That these include publishing Planescape and Spelljammer (and probably Buck Rogers XXVc, which I think is peachy) just highlights the unfairness of it all. Still, such is life. Only a cretin would think otherwise. Hence my comments really. You don't have to like it, but you should at least be aware of it.

Sdly, many people just arn't bright enough to understand such deep concepts.

Quote from: Erik BoielleMeh - being forced in to a humiliating sale to WotC through genuine boneheaded business dealings* is close enough.

How is that humiliating?  Was it also humiliating when WotC was sold in short order to Hasbro?  The simple fact is that D&D has always been profitable and no corporate stupidity has ever managed to undermine this simple fact, contrary to what you claimed in your idiotic post.  Do yourself a favour and don't talk about business -- you betray your stunning lack of cluefulness with every post you make.  Not that you don't look similarly twattish in your other comments, but on business matters your ignorance is even more appallingly obvious.

KoOS

Quote from: Pierce InverarityGee, look at my current name level. I wonder if there's a GW apothecary mini. It would have to be a gnome, though. Everyone knows that all apothecaries are gnomes.

There is, in fact, a series of Apothacary miniatures from GW. However, they are NOT gnomes. They are 8 foot tall genetically engineered super-soldier monks wearing the finest armor in the Galaxy and carrying the Holy Bolter as their side arm.  They know no fear for they are the Angels of Death, the Emperors Finest...

... They are Space Marines.


:what:

QuoteHow is that humiliating?

Do some research old son.

Wouldn't want to look ill informed, would we.

Erik, for all I know every factual claim and personal opinion you've offered in this thread is right as rain.  I don't know.  I lack the information to really judge one way or the other.  What I do know is that you are coming off as a rabid attack dog with an axe to grind.  Are there others on the thread with agendas?  Probably.  But the flaws in the arguments of your opposition are flying under the radar because you are coming off as a big jerk.

Erik doesn't use the internet for discussion. It's all about catharsis. He can spout his ideas without having to undergo the challenge of securing a willing listener.

You see, Erik blames the fact that he can't find any players on the games themselves. If only game companies weren't catering to all the wrong-headed fans out there, maybe Erik could find someone to play with.

I suppose I could always rant about D&D for a spell, to make him look articulate and rational. ;)

He's one of the many clowns of this circus. It's almost a clynical case.

QuoteErik doesn't use the internet for discussion

No no, he does. But first he feels you need to get rid of the retards, who, for instance think no one likes Space Marines or Griffons.

How is the traffic at strike to stun these days? Still humming is it? Still gets lots of posts? Hmmm? Hmmm?

Quote from: Erik BoielleHow is the traffic at strike to stun these days?

Better than on Games Workshop's own forums, that's for sure.

I wonder how much of a ding GW has taken from the growth of pre-painted minis.  I don't think people who have invested $1000+ are suddenly going to switch hobbies.  But there are probably a fair number of teenagers who opted to get into pre-painted instead of GW.  I know several individual cases who were had played GW for a while and stopped - when they restarted, they went with prepainted rather than getting back into expensive and time consuming figures.  But I'm not sure how common these people are - these cases are both miniature and rpg players, not hardcore mini players.

I'm not predicting doom but prepainted could easily account for a 10% drop in sales and a drop in long term growth.

Quote from: NicephorusI wonder how much of a ding GW has taken from the growth of pre-painted minis.  I don't think people who have invested $1000+ are suddenly going to switch hobbies.  But there are probably a fair number of teenagers who opted to get into pre-painted instead of GW.  I know several individual cases who were had played GW for a while and stopped - when they restarted, they went with prepainted rather than getting back into expensive and time consuming figures.  But I'm not sure how common these people are - these cases are both miniature and rpg players, not hardcore mini players.

I'm not predicting doom but prepainted could easily account for a 10% drop in sales and a drop in long term growth.

All I know is that if they released a range of affordable, quality WFRP-compatible miniatures then pretty much everyone I know would be buying them. That may not be indicative of the genral gaming population, but if WotC's success with the Star Wars and D&D ranges are anything to go by it would likely be a runaway hit.

Now I recall where I know Eric Boille from. HE was the guy in the CP v3 debates that rabidly tore into my informal review of it, then three days later revealed he hadn't actually seen it yet!

Aha! I knew I knew him from somewhere!

Imagine my shock, having sat there, book in 'hand' so to speak (PDF, really) only to realize the guy telling me I hadn't read what I had actually read, hadn't read what I'd read at all. It wasn't a miscommunication, it wasn't a 'different interpretation' it was blind, rabid defense of something based on knee jerk, instinctive protectiveness.

Apparently, by reading the book at the earliest possibility, I hadn't done my research. :raise:

Quote from: SpikeApparently, by reading the book at the earliest possibility, I hadn't done my research. :raise:

You monster.

!i!

QuoteApparently, by reading the book at the earliest possibility, I hadn't done my research.

Well, like I say, Mike had made it VERY clear what he was doing with V3, so it wasn't a surprise to me at all.

Like I say, not my fault if people hadn't bothered to read what he was selling before buying. I knew, and I hadn't seen it. Whats your excuse? Didn't read the previews and interviews properly maybe?

Quote from: Erik BoielleWell, like I say, Mike had made it VERY clear what he was doing with V3, so it wasn't a surprise to me at all.

Like I say, not my fault if people hadn't bothered to read what he was selling before buying. I knew, and I hadn't seen it. Whats your excuse? Didn't read the previews and interviews properly maybe?

Are you saying that Mr. Pondsmith is only interested in selling his product to people who have done the research?  Otherwise, I don't understand this argument you are making.  I expect core books to stand on their own and not need supplemental preliminary material to understand.

Quote from: jrientsAre you saying that Mr. Pondsmith is only interested in selling his product to people who have done the research?  Otherwise, I don't understand this argument you are making.  I expect core books to stand on their own and not need supplemental preliminary material to understand.

Please, please, please don't encourage the little troll.

If you really want to know, google up some of the threads on the subject from RPGnet circa the game's release.

The last thing this thread needs is someone encouraging Eric to diversify his apparent insanity.

No, encouraging him would be to repeat some of my most stinging critisisms so that he could attempt, once more, to rebutt them by using his amazing powers of... wait, what are these amazing powers again? Oh yeah, to read and judge a book without actually, you know, reading the damn book.

Knowing the designers 'intent' doesn't actually mean they don't have to put out a decent product.  

In other words: Bill Gates could tell me the next version of Windows will clean my house for me, but if the damn thing barely runs at all, and doesn't even look at the dust, much less take care of it, well his intent isn't worth the air it took him to spew it.

Quote from: jrientsAre you saying that Mr. Pondsmith is only interested in selling his product to people who have done the research?  Otherwise, I don't understand this argument you are making.  I expect core books to stand on their own and not need supplemental preliminary material to understand.

It does stand up on its own. Its great anime inspired technofantasy with some interesting musing on the nature of cyberpunk. It's filled with great ideas and cool big guns and whatnot.

Its a piss poor low fantasy conservative Shadowrunning game. The complaints were basically that it wasn't low fantasy conservative Shadowrunning game (or a generic cyberpunk toolkit). And he'd said that it wasn't a low fantasy cyberpunk game. It was VERY much in keeping with the later cyberpunk (firestorm shockwave/stormfront)/cybergeneration stuff, but STUPID PEOPLE kept claiming it came out the the blue because it wasn't just like their heavily houseruled campaign they had built up over twenty years without ever seeing anything except the core 2020 rulebook (or, I should point out, the pre release material that explained in some detail what the book was inteneded to be).

You'll note that this is a different position from my comments on GW - GW is big, professional and interested in selling stuff people will buy, Mr. Pondsmith is basically a hobbyist producing shit he thinks is cool - more people might have liked it if it was non-imaginative low fantasy conservative cyberpunk, but the dude had no interest in producing same.

If people could fucking figure out which is which things would go a lot smoother. Y'know - stop expecting GW to act like hobbyists or hobbyists to act like GW.

Quote from: Erik BoielleYou'll note that this is a different position from my comments on GW - GW is big, professional and interested in selling stuff people will buy, Mr. Pondsmith is basically a hobbyist producing shit he thinks is cool - more people might have liked it if it was non-imaginative low fantasy conservative cyberpunk, but the dude had no interest in producing same.

But your basic message remains the same (as always): "stupid, unimaginative, low-fantasy gamers are ruining your fun."

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeBut your basic message remains the same (as always): "stupid, unimaginative, low-fantasy gamers are ruining your fun."

Surely he can't be saying that AND praising GW?

- Q

Erik: Not being a major corporation, but being a 'hobbiest' does not excuse him from putting out a shoddy product.  In fact, you are somewhat disingenious for suggesting that it does, given that Mr. Pondsmith (or Uncle Mike to the fans...) has a long and distinguished history of putting out quality product and innovative games.

You can disagree with me and anyone you like about the coolness of the setting until you are blue in the face.  That doesn't, however, begin to address the fact that the book itself... as a product, as a set of rules, was utter shit.

Likewise, saying that GW makes barrels of money every year does not mean they aren't slowly losing ground in the market place or that their models are hideously overpriced. Just because someone is a fan does not automatically mean they are talking out of their ass about business either. Many gamers, particularly the crowd you address on line are well educated and knowledgeable outside of their hobby.  

There is a world of difference between saying 'Space marines should have Str 8 bolters for every model' fanspeak and 'Games workshop is overcharging for their models and I won't be buying them anymore... and this is a trend I see that is going to hurt their business over the long term'.

One is fan wankery, the other is a reasoned position. Right or wrong, it is reasoned and reasonable. You, for reasons best known to you, however, treat all such observations not only as fan wankery but also as a personal attack.  

If it wasn't so much fun to punch your buttons I'd probably IL you. Well, that and my aversion to walking around with blinders on. Warts like you make humanity all the more facinating.

Quote from: QuireSurely he can't be saying that AND praising GW?

According to Erik, WFRP would be more successful if the default PC was a griffon-riding beefcake mage with an oversized magical weapon. But much to Erik's dismay, the old v1 codgers at Strike-to-Stun are curbing GW's creative agenda by insisting on playing pig farmers and rat catchers.

Quote from: Herr Arnulfepig farmers and rat catchers.

I would totally buy those armies!

Quote from: Pierce InverarityI would totally buy those armies!

The Bretonnian army's got lots of mucky, toothless peasants. Some very nice models. :)

Erik has built an exaggerated dichotomy between the Warhammer IP and WFRP by pointing to the most extreme elements of their respective poles, ignoring everything in between, and blaming the Old Guard of WFRP for his own failure to find players.

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeAccording to Erik, WFRP would be more successful if the default PC was a griffon-riding beefcake mage with an oversized magical weapon. But much to Erik's dismay, the old v1 codgers at Strike-to-Stun are curbing GW's creative agenda by insisting on playing pig farmers and rat catchers.

Well yes - DnD, Exalted, Games Workshop, World of Warcraft, 300, Frank Miller in general and a whole bunch of other computer games suggest I'm right. I think they are crazy not to realise this. You look up mainstream in the dictionary and there is Games Workshop staring back at you.

Do you seriously think otherwise?

Comeon. Be honest. Real world now, not the fantasy of Strike to Stun where people don't Really like GW, or their novels, or their models, etc.

It selfish, apart from anything else. People love this shit. They really do. But miserable old men on the internet would rather they didn't, and won't shut up and let them.

Quoteand blaming the Old Guard of WFRP for his own failure to find players.

Actually, the thing is that out in meatspace games don't act like people wished they did on the internet. You make dick jokes and break shit. Thats what roleplaying is, more or less. Theres some other stuff but breaking shit is the core.

What people really need is material on breaking shit, or ideally breaking shit with an overtone of story and roleplaying.

But, because of stupid delusional fucks instead they produce stuff that simply isn't going to work well for most of the groups I've played in.

You are gonna get players who want to break shit, and GMs who think that breaking shit is badwrongfun.

This is stupid. Far better to take a long, hard look at what people want from games ESPECIALLY from the ubermainstream GW.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityI would totally buy those armies!

For instance, no other fucker would. In the real world.

Erik is right about WFRP.

GW artwork (40k especially) is all about testosterone laden brit-fascism and violence porn.

WFRP is about...rat-catchers and Cthulhoid entities called Zahnarzt (german for dentist).

There is a severe disconnect, which you can see in the disconnect between players of the respective franchise.

Now, for us RPG folks, WFRP is terrific. but it is so, in spite of being set in the GW Universe, not because of.

Quote from: Erik BoielleFor instance, no other fucker would. In the real world.

So you're saying no one plays Empire?  Or Brettonia?

I don't recall that being the case at my FLGS . . .

Quote from: Erik BoielleWell yes - DnD, Exalted, Games Workshop, World of Warcraft, 300, Frank Miller in general and a whole bunch of other computer games suggest I'm right. I think they are crazy not to realise this. You look up mainstream in the dictionary and there is Games Workshop staring back at you.

Do you seriously think otherwise?

Comeon. Be serious. Real world now, not the fantasy of Strike to Stun where people don't Really like GW, or their novels, or their models, etc.

I believe the last time you trolled StS it was discovered that the majority of posters over there do (or have) played WFB and follow the current fluff. If you think the anti-GW crowd at StS has any meaningful impact on WFRP development, you're just plain wrong. Your quixotic crusade is based on lies and self-justification.

Quote from: Erik BoielleWhat people really need is material on breaking shit, or ideally breaking shit with an overtone of story and roleplaying.

But, because of stupid delusional fucks instead they produce stuff that simply isn't going to work well for most of the groups I've played in.

Of course, this might speak more about the groups you play in than it does about the flaws you perceive in the game. The fact that you regard WFRP (especially v2) as de-emphasizing combat only shows that you haven't a clue what you're talking about.

Quote from: SettembriniThere is a severe disconnect, which you can see in the disconnect between players of the respective franchise.

Now, for us RPG folks, WFRP is terrific. but it is so, in spite of being set in the GW Universe, not because of.

WFB takes place on the battlefields of the Warhammer world. WFRP takes place (mostly) in the towns, cities and forests. You don't see hordes of Bloodletters running rampant through towns on a regular basis.

It's sort of like the difference between playing a modern military wargame and a modern detective RPG. They're both set in the same world but you won't be encountering tanks and fighter jets in your detective game.

Quote from: Erik BoielleActually, the thing is that out in meatspace games don't act like people wished they did on the internet. You make dick jokes and break shit. Thats what roleplaying is, more or less. Theres some other stuff but breaking shit is the core.

What people really need is material on breaking shit, or ideally breaking shit with an overtone of story and roleplaying.

But, because of stupid delusional fucks instead they produce stuff that simply isn't going to work well for most of the groups I've played in.

You are gonna get players who want to break shit, and GMs who think that breaking shit is badwrongfun.

This is stupid. Far better to take a long, hard look at what people want from games ESPECIALLY from the ubermainstream GW.

Wow.  I must have an entirely wrong impression of WFRP.  Until now I thought that you wandered around the campaign map getting into trouble and killing stuff.  Fat Gregor (http://www.criticalmiss.com/issue8/jameswallisruined2.html) lied to me!

I'm sure Erik is spot on re. GW vs. WHFRPG.

He is also a very boring person who boringly argues for the triumph of boredom. In short, a man without taste, utterly lacking in discrimination, and who seeks to fill that gaping void of refinement by repeated statements of the obvious. Not somebody a dandyist such my fine self would ever associate with.

Gnome apothecaries vs. pig farmers!

QuoteThe fact that you regard WFRP (especially v2) as de-emphasizing combat only shows that you haven't a clue what you're talking about.

That you think it doesn't shows you have never played a computer game.

Possibly you have heard of them. Its a huge industry, bigger than movies. While StS is a half dozen whinging old men...

Quote from: Erik BoielleThat you think it doesn't shows you have never played a computer game.

Possibly you have heard of them. Its a huge industry, bigger than movies. While StS is a half dozen whinging old men...

Computer games are far better at handling combat than PnP games anyway, so it's really not a valid comparison.

But you can do your own dialog in cutscenes in RPGs.

I like to think of it as:-

You can play a fat twat whose boat sinks, or, you can load up the playstation and be Solid Snake.

So, not only do you need to get people to give up on the graphics, you also need them to give up on being cool. Possibly there are some who don't like the cool characters in video games, comics and novels, but, when it comes down to it, niche market, and anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves.

Quote from: Erik BoielleYou can play a fat twat whose boat sinks, or, you can load up the playstation and be Solid Snake.

I think you'll be a much happier man/boy if you just stick with your Playstation.

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeI think you'll be a much happier man/boy if you just stick with your Playstation.

See, if only you could come to terms with being a lunatic fringe, you could cream off burnouts from the Great Unwashed Masses.

Unfortunatly, a refusal to compromise or shut the fuck up dooms the hobby to a faster decline while at the same time selfishly denying a lot of people a lot of fun (and, not to mention, the nice people at BI a good chunk of income).

The fringe needs the mainstream.

Quote from: SettembriniErik is right about WFRP.

GW artwork (40k especially) is all about testosterone laden brit-fascism and violence porn.

WFRP is about...rat-catchers and Cthulhoid entities called Zahnarzt (german for dentist).

There is a severe disconnect, which you can see in the disconnect between players of the respective franchise.

Now, for us RPG folks, WFRP is terrific. but it is so, in spite of being set in the GW Universe, not because of.

Yup, Erik is correct both that WFRP and WFB are very different animals and he is also correct IMO that WFRP would sell better were it more like WFB.

As it is, I think it moved closer to WFB with second edition, but not enough to generate those extra sales while still being enough to piss off the old guard.  If they were doing it just for the loot (which I don't remotely think they were) they should have gone much further than they did, as it is I think they did the minimum to bring it into line with the wargame that they could and even that was too much for many.

Erik is also correct that rpg sales will not save GW, they are just way too insignificant.  I do think though rpg sales could have been used as a means to lure rpgers into the minis hobby more effectively and I think they could have been used as a means of strengthening brand loyalty.

But Erik is not interested in nuance, he's not interested in looking at whether rpgs could have been used beneficially by GW, he'd rather caricature that as saying that people think GW would have been saved by rpg sales because he can rebut that but he can't deal with reasoned argument.

Hell, he can't deal much with unreasoned argument.  He's still sore of course that Cyberpunk v3 was such a miserable piece of crap that is conspicuous only by its utter failure in the market.  Now GW is going down the tubes too, and that is also to much for him.

Past performance does not prove future performance, GW was a great and well run business, was.

Balbinus: what do you think BI could have done to bring WFRP more in line with WFB?

Quotewhat do you think BI could have done to bring WFRP more in line with WFB?

It's a hoary old argument, but

(http://www.games-workshop.de/warhammer/erweiterungen/sdc/bilder/sdc2004-wallpaper-1024.jpg)

You shoulda know it was coming.

Actually, these are better:-

http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/media/video/easterEggs/WAR_Promo_081606.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3pOljQqvX8

Yep, I knew it was coming. Of course, you'll now fail to explain in actual words why WFRP can't do that picture.

In part because some knobend on the forum would tell you you were doing it wrong. Tell me I'm mistaken.

That said, the chances of getting a starting character who is a complete wuss and insufficent healing would likly limit your ability to act like  characters from video games.

Better if default dudes act like the fanbase would expect.

Quote from: Erik BoielleIn part because some knobend on the forum would tell you you were doing it wrong. Tell me I'm mistaken.

That said, the chances of getting a starting character who is a complete wuss and insufficent healing would likly limit your ability to act like  characters from video games.

Better if default dudes act like the fanbase would expect.

Never mind that most characters in WFB die in droves, generally have crappy healing and otherwise don't act a hell of a lot like video game characters? Sure.

Actually, crappy healing aside, I played in two Warhammer campaigns under the same GM. The first one saw fate points slipping away to the toon of two or three a session. I lost a fate point every freaking game. Not cool.

The second, however, saw the lowly scum of the earth (the PC's) slaughter all that opposed them, ranging from some sort of vampire thing in an abandoned tower, a necromancer's horde of skeletons and a really nasty ghost.  We didn't have half the magic of the first group, and at least on my part we weren't half as prepared for combat (I went from a super strong, but somewhat weedy militia man to a really pathetic gambler).  Damned if we didn't feel fairly Video Gamey killing all that shit. We even explored a dungeon of sorts... surviving the mess that wiped out nearly all the NPC's by the simple expedent of being better killers than the bad thing.






Oh, and that picture sucks eight shades of dog's balls. Least. Dynamic. Duel. EVAR!

Quote from: SpikeNever mind that most characters in WFB die in droves, generally have crappy healing and otherwise don't act a hell of a lot like video game characters?

Its worth noting they always get better for the next battle.

Characters never die - they just fall over and crawl off to lick their wounds. Says so in White Dwarf often enough.

--

See, I mean THESE are warhammer:-

http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/media/podcast/files/WAR-VotM_2007-03_Login.html

http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/media/video/files/Marauder-exclusive.html

It not actually my idea of warhammer, which is far more blanchian and stylish, but I dunno - some mutherfuckers are always trying to iceskate uphill.

QuoteOh, and that picture sucks eight shades of dog's balls. Least. Dynamic. Duel. EVAR!

I just like it because it has Unlikly Middenheim in the background, and has a big war coming down to single combat between the leaders of the armies - things almost guaranteed to start the geriatric half dozen clucking like angry hens.

But, I mean you get the idea:-

(http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/behindTheScenes/theMakingOf/images/OrcvsDwarf_final.jpg)

(http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/media/artandillust/images/Chosen_Bright_Wizard.jpg)

(http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/media/artandillust/images/DwarfSlayervsBlackOrc.jpg)

See, those are better. Still not the greatest in the world, but better.

That first pic? Yeah, looked like the two central characters were bad actors holding a pose waiting for the director to come back from lunch and shout 'action'.

Seriously.

Quote from: SpikeSee, those are better. Still not the greatest in the world, but better.

Hey - its warhammer - they got me young.

I think its the muscles.

Quotelooked like the two central characters were bad actors holding a pose waiting for the director to come back from lunch and shout 'action'.

I've spent much though pondering how to work the classic 'pose and grimace' warhammer moneyshot in to gaming - in a computer game you could have a special button you push where time slows down and your guys line up like they are on the cover of White Dwarf and grimace and wave their axes in the air before doing a special attack.

In short, I think its part of the charm :-)

Easy to do tabletop, in video games it's always a cutscene sort of thing.

Otherwise you have one character (yours) posing up a storm while the other guy (comp or otherwise) continues to beat the snot out of you...

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeI think you'll be a much happier man/boy if you just stick it in your Playstation.

Fixed yer typo :D

Sorry Erik, that's how I read the post on the first pass...;)

Quote from: Erik BoielleIn part because some knobend on the forum would tell you you were doing it wrong. Tell me I'm mistaken.

Since when did you start caring about what others think of you? People will go ahead and play the games they want, and if they're happy they won't seek validation on the internet.

Quote from: Erik BoielleThat said, the chances of getting a starting character who is a complete wuss and insufficent healing would likly limit your ability to act like  characters from video games.

Better if default dudes act like the fanbase would expect.

The obvious solution would be to start off with 3,000 XP characters. People have been doing this in D&D for years when they don't want to start at level 1. An WFRP character can be rolled up and advanced in 30 minutes.

Quote from: David JohansenFixed yer typo.

Now that's just mean. :p

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeBalbinus: what do you think BI could have done to bring WFRP more in line with WFB?

Hyped up the power level, more bigass magic as standard, more death metal vibe stuff, lots of things that you can do with the current ruleset but made as default rather than as a possibility.  Aim it squarely at 13 year olds.

I'm damn glad they didn't do it incidentally, the rpg and the wargame are different beasts and I'm very happy to see them remain that way, but I suspect going for Erik-esque adolescent power fantasy as the baseline (as opposed to as a possibility within the ruleset) would have brought it closer and potentially made it more profitable.

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeThe obvious solution would be to start off with 3,000 XP characters. People have been doing this in D&D for years when they don't want to start at level 1. An WFRP character can be rolled up and advanced in 30 minutes.

Quite, you can do it but it's not the default.  What Erik is trying to suggest, but struggling due to his bizarre inability to communicate politely, is that the game would have been closer to the wargame and commercially more successful had that been the default rather than an option.

The thing is, guys steeped in a game as you are often see more flexibility than some kid coming to it for the first time will.  I'm not saying that flexibility isn't there, but the kid will want to pick it up and play it as written and have fun.

Erik's changes, which if implemented would result in my never touching the game again, achieve that and as such make considerable commercial sense IMO.  The fact you can do it by spending 3000 xps of advances is ultimately pretty irrelevant, it's not the game's default setting.

Quote from: BalbinusHyped up the power level, more bigass magic as standard, more death metal vibe stuff, lots of things that you can do with the current ruleset but made as default rather than as a possibility.  Aim it squarely at 13 year olds.

I'm damn glad they didn't do it incidentally, the rpg and the wargame are different beasts and I'm very happy to see them remain that way, but I suspect going for Erik-esque adolescent power fantasy as the baseline (as opposed to as a possibility within the ruleset) would have brought it closer and potentially made it more profitable.

All that's really needed is a section on creating more experienced adventurers. Rewrite the character creation chapter to include pc's with 10, 20 and 30+ advances and you're pretty much there. High xp WFRP characters are fairly epic as it stands, anyway.

Quote from: DrewAll that's really needed is a section on creating more experienced adventurers. Rewrite the character creation chapter to include pc's with 10, 20 and 30+ advances and you're pretty much there. High xp WFRP characters are fairly epic as it stands, anyway.

It would help, but I suspect to really pull in the mouthbreathing 13 year old crowd (the thoughtful 13 year old crowd would run a mile at this) you need to go straight in for Erikist play, so the default would be hyperpowered, characters would reset healing all wounds including fatal between games, some kind of point buy element to ensure fairness between players, iconics, a whole bunch of changes we would all hate.

Also, I think people underestimate how much adolescents tend to play by the rules as written, seeing houseruling as a form of cheating, and they often look down on munchkins and powergamers while wanting to munchkin and powergame.  You need I think to really market well to dress it up, to make it all about the kewl powerz but pretend it's something more than that so they can kid themselves that they're doing something more than they are.

Hm, I seem to be reinventing some other company's marketing strategy here now...

Quote from: BalbinusIt would help, but I suspect to really pull in the mouthbreathing 13 year old crowd (the thoughtful 13 year old crowd would run a mile at this) you need to go straight in for Erikist play, so the default would be hyperpowered, characters would reset healing all wounds including fatal between games, some kind of point buy element to ensure fairness between players, iconics, a whole bunch of changes we would all hate.

Oddly enough I think they'd be more receptive to the D&D model-- weak beginning characters with the option of more powerful individuals with additional levels/expertise if the mood suits.

QuoteAlso, I think people underestimate how much adolescents tend to play by the rules as written, seeing houseruling as a form of cheating, and they often look down on munchkins and powergamers while wanting to munchkin and powergame.  You need I think to really market well to dress it up, to make it all about the kewl powerz but pretend it's something more than that so they can kid themselves that they're doing something more than they are.

Thinking back to my own experiences as a teen there's an undeniable truth here, but younger players seem to feel more comfortable earning their powers rather than starting out with them by default. The gamesmanship angle- and the opportunity for progressive improvement it affords -can't be overstated in terms of importance. It's exactly the same model as adopted by MMO's and the like.

QuoteHm, I seem to be reinventing some other company's marketing strategy here now...

There's no shame in that. Speculating on how GW could be doing things differently was part of the original point of the thread. :)

Good points on the powerup model Drew, D&D uses it and I would be nervous at criticising anything central to the D&D play model as being bad design or unappealing to kids, if D&D does something then it would take someone foolhardier than I am to argue it doesn't work for adolescent newbies.

Oh, to protect me from the hypersensitive out there, yes I do think D&D is excellent for adolescent newbies, that doesn't mean I think it's only excellent for them.  Like Coca-Cola, it's good for people of all ages.

Quote from: BalbinusGood points on the powerup model Drew, D&D uses it and I would be nervous at criticising anything central to the D&D play model as being bad design or unappealing to kids, if D&D does something then it would take someone foolhardier than I am to argue it doesn't work for adolescent newbies.

Yeah, there's some pretty obvious correlations between a character growing in power and the player growing up. That it happens so much more quickly in-game than in life is a huge part of the appeal, I suspect.

QuoteOh, to protect me from the hypersensitive out there, yes I do think D&D is excellent for adolescent newbies, that doesn't mean I think it's only excellent for them.  Like Coca-Cola, it's good for people of all ages.

Agreed. D&D is an excellent game.

Quote from: BalbinusIt would help, but I suspect to really pull in the mouthbreathing 13 year old crowd (the thoughtful 13 year old crowd would run a mile at this) you need to go straight in for Erikist play, so the default would be hyperpowered, characters would reset healing all wounds including fatal between games, some kind of point buy element to ensure fairness between players, iconics, a whole bunch of changes we would all hate.

Also, I think people underestimate how much adolescents tend to play by the rules as written, seeing houseruling as a form of cheating, and they often look down on munchkins and powergamers while wanting to munchkin and powergame.  You need I think to really market well to dress it up, to make it all about the kewl powerz but pretend it's something more than that so they can kid themselves that they're doing something more than they are.

Hm, I seem to be reinventing some other company's marketing strategy here now...

I may be entirely out of touch with the '13 year old boy' demographic, but somehow I don't think they're going to be very interested in PnP RPGs to begin with. Things were different when we were kids. There weren't any alternatives to red box D&D, so PnP roleplaying was the next step after we outgrew Star Wars action figures. Nowadays there are computer games, CCGs and clicky toys, all of which are more accessible and visually stimulating than RPGs.

Nowadays, I don't think you're going to capture PnP RPG gamers until they reach, say, the 16-18 bracket. And by that time, most of them are looking for something that will set them apart from the younger kids, whilst still allowing them to kill imaginary monsters.

As you noted, I'm biased by my close attachment to classic WFRP. However, I can't help but think that alienating the existing WFRP fanbase with the vague hope of converting 13 year old boys into roleplayers could have easily been tantamount to financial suicide for BI. If they really wanted to attract the pre-teen demographic, they'd have been wiser to re-release AHQ with a slightly more roleplay focused ruleset.

Edit: I do agree with the previous comments that space should have been allotted in the core WFRP rulebook to provide guidelines for starting games at higher power levels.

Herr Arnulfe, what did you make of the second edition generally?  I'm interested in what a WFRP grognard made of it and if you thought it an improvement or not?

Quote from: BalbinusHerr Arnulfe, what did you make of the second edition generally?  I'm interested in what a WFRP grognard made of it and if you thought it an improvement or not?

Two steps forward and one step backwards. After the playtest, I spent a few months waffling over whether to switch from v1. The biggest hurdle was coming to grips with the new skill system, which significantly lowered the overall competence of PCs. In v1, even the lowliest Beggar had a reasonable chance of success at a variety of tasks (through Standard Tests). However, the skill/talent split and universal resolution systems are good, and I managed to houserule skill proficiencies without mangling the basic mechanic, so this is no longer an issue for me.

I'm lukewarm on the idea of balanced races/careers, but I can understand why it was done, considering the new skill system.

My other major reservation concerned the handling of non-combat skills. Even when I started playing WFRP at age 15, a major appeal was the attention given to non-combat skills like Performance, Construct, Bribery etc. I was, in truth, still looking for an excuse to kill monsters, but the v1 rules seemed to actually care about my Entertainer's unique abilities. This created a sense of verisimilitude in the gameworld, and made killing monsters even more enjoyable. In v2, the non-combat stuff seemed more like an afterthought. So I was a bit reticent after seeing only the WFRP corebook, but BI has since demonstrated their interest in fleshing out other aspects of the setting through supplements.

As a miniatures gamer, I enjoy most aspects of the new combat system. I do find myself getting bored with protracted die-rolling in combat (maybe spoiled by computer games?) but WFRP isn't about back-to-back combats anyways, so it's not a big deal.

Hmm, what else. The new magic system is pretty good and is better suited to the setting. Magic might be too cheap, XP-wise, but v1 magic was too expensive so overall it's an improvement.

I'd have liked to see the monster profiles given a bit more attention in terms of adapting them to an RPG, insead of simply translating their WFB stats, but the extra background entries in the Bestiary are good and useful.

The 'missing link' in WFRP has always been mass combat and linking the game with WFB. There should either be a narrative combat system, or else a solid conversion mechanic to WFB (or both). Also some guidance on how to merge the two scales in terms of PC storylines. But I've winged it many times in the past incorporating WFB armies into sessions, so it's not a huge obstacle.

Overall I'm pleased. The game went nearly 20 years without a new edition so a few hiccups had to be expected. If/when BI does a v3, I'm sure many of the problems will be ironed out.

Quote from: DrewAgreed. D&D is an excellent game.

But also like Coca-Cola, Too much will make certain parts of your anatomy rot,

Quote from: pathfinderapBut also like Coca-Cola, Too much will make certain parts of your anatomy rot,

Too much of anything will make certain parts of you rot. ;)

Quote from: DrewToo much of anything will make certain parts of you rot. ;)

not so :)

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeHowever, I can't help but think that alienating the existing WFRP fanbase with the vague hope of converting 13 year old boys into roleplayers could have easily been tantamount to financial suicide for BI.

I disagree. I don't believe the existing WFRP fanbase you speak of exists outside of Strike to Stun.

Its is GAMES WORKSHOP. Its HUGE! They make Novels and Comics and Minis and Computer Games and EVERYTHING.

And with the exception of WFRP, its all bloody violence porn! Thats what they sell! I know if I'm looking at a warhammer product I'm looking for violence porn. If I wasn't, I'd be somewhere else!

And DnD and Exalted and Vampire are the big games in roleplaying. Its not just the crucial preteen agegroup that likes this stuff.

It just so ODD.

Quote from: Erik BoielleI disagree. I don't believe the existing WFRP fanbase you speak of exists outside of Strike to Stun.

Its is GAMES WORKSHOP. Its HUGE! They make Novels and Comics and Minis and Computer Games and EVERYTHING.

And with the exception of WFRP, its all bloody violence porn! Thats what they sell! I know if I'm looking at a warhammer product I'm looking for violence porn. If I wasn't, I'd be somewhere else!

The posters at BIf and RPGnet are also part of the WFRP fanbase, and they're very happy with v2. Convert the game into AHQ: the RPG as you suggest, and you'd see them drop like flies. Sure you might pick up some new converts, but it's no guarantee.

An RPG that's just violence porn with no other redeeming elements is just dull and GW would be foolish to take marketing advice from you on this matter. There's a reason why GW's minis games are violence porn: they're battle games. They're not supposed to be about anything else.

Such things are relative - GW is HUGE, so even a small fraction of its fanbase if a decent sector.

Dawn of War has sold like two million copies though, so, yknow. Relative.

QuoteAn RPG that's just violence porn with no other redeeming elements is just dull and GW would be foolish to take marketing advice from you on this matter. There's a reason why GW's minis games are violence porn: they're battle games. They're not supposed to be about anything else.

Their SUCCESSFUL book publishing arm is mostly violence porn. Their SUCCESSFUL computergames are violence porn. I think there is a pattern here.

Its what they sell. They are stupid to sell anything else.

Not, as it happens, that there isn't room for other things, but surely the place is in fanzines and such instead of GW central?

Quote from: Erik BoielleTheir SUCCESSFUL book publishing arm is mostly violence porn. Their SUCCESSFUL computergames are violence porn.

Its what they sell. They are stupid to sell anything else.

I can't speak for the 40K fiction, but aside from the Slayer series, you're wrong about the fantasy novels - there's plenty of mystery, social conflict etc. to go along with the combat.

And who wants to play a computer game as an RPG? Every attempt to convert a computer game property to an RPG has failed.

My observations:

* It seems to me that GW is missing the boat by not doing pre-painted minis.  I think if they went the pre-painted route, they'd blow the competition out of the water.  

I know I might actually play them again, then.  Dropping a load of money on minis is one thing.  Dropping a load of minis and then spending thousands of hours trying to paint them is another.

* Like Balbinus, I think Erick has a point about WHFRP.  If it approached character generation like Exalted or Palladium/Rifts, where characters start out heroic and get more heroic as time goes on, I believe it would have been a larger success overall (perhaps less RPG sales, but increased mini sales from cross-marketing).

* I think they are making an even bigger mistake with the not-yet-released 40K RPG.  People will want to play Space Marines, Dark Eldar, etc - not Inquisitors and Free Traders or whatever.

Quote from: Erik BoielleI just like it because it has Unlikly Middenheim in the background, and has a big war coming down to single combat between the leaders of the armies - things almost guaranteed to start the geriatric half dozen clucking like angry hens.

But, I mean you get the idea:-

(http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/behindTheScenes/theMakingOf/images/OrcvsDwarf_final.jpg)

(http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/media/artandillust/images/Chosen_Bright_Wizard.jpg)

(http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/media/artandillust/images/DwarfSlayervsBlackOrc.jpg)

So these pics are Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, right? I have the WRFP 2e corebook, and those pictures look like they could be something straight out of the setting.

Quote from: Erik BoielleSuch things are relative - GW is HUGE, so even a small fraction of its fanbase if a decent sector.

Dawn of War has sold like two million copies though, so, yknow. Relative.




Their SUCCESSFUL book publishing arm is mostly violence porn. Their SUCCESSFUL computergames are violence porn. I think there is a pattern here.

Its what they sell. They are stupid to sell anything else.

Not, as it happens, that there isn't room for other things, but surely the place is in fanzines and such instead of GW central?

Have you seen the cover to WFRP 2e? It looks like violence porn to me. The game can do violence porn easily, and it can do lower-powered stuff as well. To the best of my knowledge, WFRP 2e is in the top 5 list for rpgs. Has WFRP 2e sold more copies of their core book than Vampire or Exalted? I've heard that Warhammer Fantasy is actually bigger than Vampire worldwide (just not in North America), though I can't recall where I've heard this. Can someone enlighten me? :confused:

Quote from: Erik BoielleIts is GAMES WORKSHOP. Its HUGE! They make Novels and Comics and Minis and Computer Games and EVERYTHING.

Except for the fact, y'know, that GW doesn't make the computer games. Relic Entertainment made Dawn of War - all GW did was license it. GW hasn't produced a computer game since 1986.

I just thought I'd duck in and say that I'm loving WFRP2 for being exactly what it is - low-powered, violent fantasy that tends towards the heroic, especially at higher levels.

I have never played v1, I have no idea what strike to stun even is, I have friends who play the wargame but I've never played myself.

If it were power fantasy gaming I were looking for, I'd just play more high-level D&D.

-O

Quote from: Erik BoielleI disagree. I don't believe the existing WFRP fanbase you speak of exists outside of Strike to Stun.

Yeah, but you're wrong.

I don't know what Strike to Stun is, I'm guessing a fan forum (and a very nice one too if Herr Arnulfe is a representative), but WFRP has a lot more fans than are reflected in one fan forum.

Hell, if it didn't the plug would already have been pulled on it.

Herr Arnulfe, thanks for the replies.  Sounds about right, lots improved, a few things you'd have preferred done differently.  For a new edition that's not so bad.

Quote from: BalbinusYeah, but you're wrong.

I don't know what Strike to Stun is, I'm guessing a fan forum (and a very nice one too if Herr Arnulfe is a representative), but WFRP has a lot more fans than are reflected in one fan forum.

Hell, if it didn't the plug would already have been pulled on it.

Herr Arnulfe, thanks for the replies.  Sounds about right, lots improved, a few things you'd have preferred done differently.  For a new edition that's not so bad.

StS is a bit of a grognardy WFRP site. They still have a "what do you think the next edition will be like?" thing on their front page! But they mean well. :)

Ahem.

Anyway, as far as the appealing to the teenage demographic... yeah, you could make it more about the griffon-riding knights and whatnot, but wouldn't that conflict with the wargame (which is going to do big battles better anyway)?

I know my WFRP games have always been very violent, but it's a Western bar brawl and kicking in someone's head in an alley rather than the battle of Helm's Deep. I know a few thirteen year olds who think the WFRP brawling stuff is the chicken's elbows - not all adolescents are the same.

Some people like the LotR films, some people like The Mummy. I'd say the wargame does the first better (the fighty bits, that is) and WFRP would be better and the latter.

Quotebut WFRP has a lot more fans than are reflected in one fan forum.

Yes - exactly. But the 'old guard' Mr. Arnulf is refering to is the WFB hating uberwhingers of StS* instead of the wider majority of games who almost all have an opinion on Games Workshop, whatever it is. And given they sell lots of stuff, presumably some of them actually like what they make, rather than something almost, but not entirely, wholy unalike WFB and wouldn't mind seeing some roleplaying stuff to go with their models and their novels etc.

*These would be the sorta Outpost Galifrey equivalent. By pretty much ignoring them and instead making something for THE REST OF THE FUCKING COUNTRY, the latest version of Doctor Who has brought entertainment to a great number of people. You can't MOVE for Doctor Who at the moment.

WFRP2 made a terrible mistake in listening to the Outpost Galifrey guys, who made the mistake of thinking they were the only people who had ever seen Dr. Who.

I see your point Erik, I'm not sure I entirely disagree with you, though I would say had you been a bit less hyperbolic earlier I'd probably have agreed with some of your points sooner.

If you toned down the whole attack bunny schtick you'd be much more persuasive.

Quote from: Erik Boielle*These would be the sorta Outpost Galifrey equivalent. By pretty much ignoring them and instead making something for THE REST OF THE FUCKING COUNTRY, the latest version of Doctor Who has brought entertainment to a great number of people. You can't MOVE for Doctor Who at the moment.

WFRP2 made a terrible mistake in listening to the Outpost Galifrey guys, who made the mistake of thinking they were the only people who had ever seen Dr. Who.

Speaking as a lifelong Doctor Who fan who can only take OG in very small doses, that's a damn good analogy. :cool:

Quote from: William G. GruffSpeaking as a lifelong Doctor Who fan who can only take OG in very small doses, that's a damn good analogy. :cool:

It also ignores the substantial community of long-time WFRP fans who are far more moderate in their approach, as well as the large number of brand new fans who love second edition without ever having laid eyes on first ed.

Seriously, there are enough false propositions in this thread-- pretty much all of them from the same source --to make one's eyes bleed.

Balbinus: thank you for the kind words.

Quote from: Erik BoielleYes - exactly. But the 'old guard' Mr. Arnulf is refering to is the WFB hating uberwhingers of StS* instead of the wider majority of games who almost all have an opinion on Games Workshop, whatever it is. And given they sell lots of stuff, presumably some of them actually like what they make, rather than something almost, but not entirely, wholy unalike WFB and wouldn't mind seeing some roleplaying stuff to go with their models and their novels etc.

*These would be the sorta Outpost Galifrey equivalent. By pretty much ignoring them and instead making something for THE REST OF THE FUCKING COUNTRY, the latest version of Doctor Who has brought entertainment to a great number of people. You can't MOVE for Doctor Who at the moment.

WFRP2 made a terrible mistake in listening to the Outpost Galifrey guys, who made the mistake of thinking they were the only people who had ever seen Dr. Who.

You repeatedly miss a key point here. WFRP v2 was NOT designed to appease GW-hating v1 diehards. The setting pretty much reflects current WFB to the letter. In case you haven't played WFB since 4th edition, it's no longer the Herohammer game of the early 90's. Magic items are limited availability and oftentimes it's not worth buying them for your heroes. A few rank-and-file troops can, in fact, defeat most hero characters toe-to-toe, and Wizard Lords are rarely worth the points in an average-sized army. Characters like Gotrek, who can carve through hordes of goblins singlehandedly, are the exception rather than the norm. Most heroes are grizzled, ugly men who die in droves. Epic-level heroes are NOT the default character type in Warhammer Fantasy. WFB is a game where a single cannon crewman can get lucky and kill your General (this has happened to my army several times). WFRP v2 reflects this pretty well.

And if you hadn't already been banned from both BIf and RPGnet, you'd know that WFRP v2 is in fact drawing new players. But just keep railing against a half-dozen old skool fans from StS - it only makes you look more pathetic and discredits your position, which can only be a good thing.

QuoteYou repeatedly miss a key point here. WFRP v2 was NOT designed to appease GW-hating v1 diehards.

No. It really was.

Just imagine what a totally fresh GW produced roleplaying game might look like. One with no baggage, written in GWs house style.

I'm talking like Dawn of War the roleplaying game here.

That people are so invested in their mythical v1 that they can't see this really bugs me.

Erik, just to check, do you currently play WFB according to the now current ruleset?

Quote from: Erik BoielleNo. It really was.

Just imagine what a totally fresh GW produced roleplaying game might look like. One with no baggage, written in GWs house style.

I'm talking like Dawn of War the roleplaying game here.

That people are so invested in their mythical v1 that they can't see this really bugs me.

Ah, right. I keep forgetting you're the guy who wants Warhammer Fantasy to become more like 40K, and all your opinions of 'what GW should be' are based on the 40K universe.

Erik, you keep bringing up Dawn of War like it's some sort of holy talisman of gaming, and at all relevant to RPG's (electronic or otherwise).

WTF?

I mean, I fucking played the game all last week like an addicted crack monkey until I beat the Tau campaign line. It's a lot of fun, sure. It's got 40k armies that feel like 40k armies, sure. Hell, you have 'wargear' for your leader that are based off the tabletop, sure.

But it's about as roleplayee 'violence porn' as command and conquer. Which is to say, not at fucking all.  You have a little dude with a bunch of other little dudes... and I do mean LITTLE running around shooting other little dudes, and everything dying in droves, but since you keep making more little dudes, no one cares.

And almost none of those little dudes have names, much less personalities.  

So: Apparently you are suggesting that the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying Game should be about and endless succession of faceless, nameless characters that run out and do nothing but battle endlessly? In fact, that this should be the model for all RPGs?

I suspect not. That being the case, please stop tossing around the existance of DoW as some sort of template for RPGs. It's a RTS. A fast paced, fun, RTS but it has about as much relevance to RPG design as a Monopoly set.

QuoteErik, just to check, do you currently play WFB according to the now current ruleset?

Nah - I just don't want a 40K rpg tainted by the same crap as Warhammer. My black templars are kitted out in a way I think is Competetive rather than how i'd like though - bloody hate predators - close combat terminators and dreadnought are the shit).

--

Seriously though, the rank and file dudes are all big muscle bound chaps. That there are lots of them doesn't mean they arn't all badass.

It's an attitude see. An army of Conans fighting an army of Lurtzes. Thats certainly what Warhammer Online seems to sell itself as. Is there something wrong with that assesment?

300 (the movie) vs. Blackadder Goes Fourth.

Dawn of War vs. Barbarosa to Berlin (although its worth noting that the PCs in DoW are the commanders, with everyone else an NPC henchman).

(I like dawn of war cause it has sorta enough story without not being Warhammer any more - er, all the stuff in the first campaign with the corrupt librarian and Chaos/Ork pacts and the gribbly demon.

Much angst about destroying your homeworld. I think. And in Dark Crusade, all that stuff about 'Commander X demanded the planetary governor withdraw. He refused. So the Blood Ravens went to war with the Imperial Guard. You know. In the funky voice.).

How about a follow-up question then. Have you ever played WFB?

Quote from: Erik BoielleIt's an attitude see. An army of Conans fighting an army of Lurtzes. Thats certainly what Warhammer Online seems to sell itself as. Is there something wrong with that assesment?

Yes, there is. Human rank-and-file in WFB have a strength of 3, which is human average. Conan probably has a Strength 5. Lurtz is an Orc Boss, and you're limited to 3-5 of those in a WFB army.

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeHow about a follow-up question then. Have you ever played WFB?

I've got half an empire army. Were it finished, every man in it would be badass.

Truth be told, were I to put in the effort required to finish one, I'd go for a hard core chaos knight army. You can do that right? People like having hardass chaos knights right?

--

Its this kinda thing that I think makes Dawn of War particularly suitable for examination for roleplaying conversion:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj7I_EAJuu0

Incidentally, are you fat, and do you have a beard?

Quote from: Erik BoielleIncidentally, are you fat, and do you have a beard?

I'm 6'4", 200 lbs., beardless, and could mop the floor with your wussy ass.

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeI'm 6'4", 200 lbs., beardless, and could mop the floor with your wussy ass.

Sure you are, fatbeard.

Quote from: Erik BoielleSure you are, fatbeard.

Ken Burnside knows me. Ask him. Unless you've been banned over there as well.

Herr Arnulfe, that's completely uncalled for.  If Erik wants to argue that WFRP (a game he doesn't play) should be more like Warhammer Fantasy (another game he doesn't play) that's his right.  I fail to see the point, but that's his right.

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeI'm 6'4", 200 lbs., beardless, and could mop the floor with your wussy ass.

Arnulfe, you are better than that. You can make posts far better than that. Don't let the troll get at you.

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeKen Burnside knows me. Ask him. Unless you've been banned over there as well.

I have. More or less. Told him SITS was a worst case example of grognard fanwank over playability.

Principally because it is. I've not played that either, but I did spend a couple of weeks writing a program to automate the damage system, so I know

1: It takes to long

and

2: It doesn't work.

In fact, I told him that two years ago, but the sumbitch wouldn't listen. Now he's completely rewriting the system.

Almost as if I told him so.

Ah well, some people never listen...










Maybe I should stop telling people uncomfortable truths. They don't seem to appreciate it.

Quote from: Erik BoielleIt just so ODD.

As opposed to ADD?

Quote from: jrientsHerr Arnulfe, that's completely uncalled for.  If Erik wants to argue that WFRP (a game he doesn't play) should be more like Warhammer Fantasy (another game he doesn't play) that's his right.  I fail to see the point, but that's his right.

You're right, it was immature. :deflated:

Yeah?  Well, I'm 5'10 1/2", 240 lbs. on a good day, and can be outrun by a snail with a smoker's cough.  To top it off, my hairline is receeding.  And although a white middle-class midwestern suburbanite,  I do not believe I am a) a master swordsman, b) a ninja, or c) a potential pit-fighting champion.  But I can totally do this thing where it looks like my stomach is talking.
 
Let's not start this knob-waving folks.  Clearly, as a specimen, I have you all beat.  As a specimen of what, I'm not quite sure.

There is just too much material in this thread to bounce off of.

First, from the game store point-of-view, WARHAMMER ; both Fantasy and 40k miniatures and related books sell pretty well. Every one of our regulars who plays them complain about the high prices tho.

WARHAMMER:Fantasy Role play has at least 3 or 4 groups that stop by the store on a regular basis and seem to play weekly or monthly.

....and to break a cliche : one of our regular customers who plays WARHAMMER 40k is great looking blonde lady in her mid 20s that works in our mall's branch of Frederick's of Hollywood. She bought a batch of pink six-sided dice just to use with WARHAMMER.

- Ed C.

To expand on Dawn of War, here are the cutscenes from the first game in order:-

Mission 1 intro - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW1Yc9ORnsk

Mission 1 outro - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38mEeQS6-bA

Mission 2 intro - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuTUsziW9QE

Mission 2 outro - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjCin7l_-QI

Mission 3 intro - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=555hsAV_OZo

Mission 3 outro - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMewi3ONna0

Mission 4 intro - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vn79FQ7CdPQ

Mission 4 outro - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVkZDzPMODY

Mission 5 intro - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FPxXoIznCk

Mission 5 outro - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTvurw0vuiI

Mission 6 intro - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhZ4wrIBBv4

Mission 6 outro - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-z8FjCm9ik

Mission 7 intro - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76jzEZ8RCIs

Mission 7 outro - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-l741iVKa_Q

Mission 8 outro - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MieSHnViBI

Mission 9 intro - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZzbAaHHidg

Mission 9 outro - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2ujVI5CPjk

Mission 10 intro - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqd4U-BGQPw

Mission 10 outro - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tfJ2a7wD24

Mission 11 intro - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgazrS9N8Ro

End - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj7I_EAJuu0

Right - theres a story in there. There are characters. Theres brotherhood, betrayal, angst and everything. Bit short on romance possibly, but so are roleplaying games, for the most part.

But the principals are space marines, guard commanders, chaos marines, eldar farseers and whatnot.

THATS warhammer.

Erik, I have no plan to click your links.  I find cutscenes in video games to be an abomination unto the Lord.  For you to argue that an media as freeform and open-ended as an RPG should be more like a cutscene just strikes me a cuckoo crazy.

Cut scenes from a video game ?? Holy Hannah!!

 I thought you guys were talking about the miniatures games and the RPGs based on them .

Did I get that right or not ?

- Ed C.

Quote from: jrientsErik, I have no plan to click your links.  I find cutscenes in video games to be an abomination unto the Lord.  For you to argue that an media as freeform and open-ended as an RPG should be more like a cutscene just strikes me a cuckoo crazy.

Ah well, I find, if I'm honest, the acting in cutscenes tends to be on par with the roleplaying that actually occurs at the table.

If I'm super honest, if a game was as good as the collected cutscenes in dawn of war, we'd be doing really fucking well, considering you are adlibbing, making OOC jokes, not everyone is on the same page or paying attention etc.

Course, in a roleplaying game you make it up as you go along, so its not JUST LIKE a cutscene, what with being able to steer it instead of just watching, but surely that kind of acting is what Warhammer at least is all about.






The ones from DoW are really good anyway. Just watch em.

Quote from: KoltarFirst, from the game store point-of-view, WARHAMMER ; both Fantasy and 40k miniatures and related books sell pretty well. Every one of our regulars who plays them complain about the high prices tho.

Does your store sell more GW minis stuff now that GW has tried to stop internet stores from selling their stuff ?

Quote from: Erik BoielleAh well, I find, if I'm honest, the acting in cutscenes tends to be on par with the roleplaying that actually occurs at the table.

 Wow...way to insult hundreds, maybe thousands of gamers out there with one sentence.

 - Ed C.

Quote from: KoltarDid I get that right or not ?

You were on track.  Erik seems to want to talk about products that GW doesn't even make.  Again I can't quite follow his point.  This for instance:

Quote from: ErikIf I'm super honest, if a game was as good as the collected cutscenes in dawn of war, we'd be doing really fucking well, considering you are adlibbing, making OOC jokes, not everyone is on the same page or paying attention etc.

At my table, the adlibs and OOC jokes and shooting the breeze about comics and quoting Order of the Stick is all considered part of the fun.  And maybe that's part of the fundamental problem here.  Maybe I'm not understanding some of his arguments because Erik takes 40K a hell of a lot more seriously than I take D&D.  To me, WFRP looks like a delightful little romp.

Quote from: Erik BoielleThe ones from DoW are really good anyway. Just watch em.

The ones from Final Liberation were much better.  Try this one-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOi3CzZjV0M

Quote from: KoltarWow...way to insult hundreds, maybe thousands of gamers out there with one sentence.

Can you really ad-lib to the giddy heights even of Neighbours or Eastenders or even a Straight To Video classic?

Its not insulting, its just the nature of the medium. Download some peoples game sessions and listen to them - imagine if it was a radio play instead of a game, and how good you'd think it was.

Witty reparte and nuanced characterisation is just easier if you have a script.

QuoteAt my table, the adlibs and OOC jokes and shooting the breeze about comics and quoting Order of the Stick is all considered part of the fun.

They are - now imagine the Dawn of War cutscene, only the Marine Commander is being played by Phil, who is stoned and the Inquisitor is Steve who spent half the session reading a sourcebook and and the dialogue is interspered with comments and the pacing breaks down every time someone throws the dice and, and there are no graphics and everything has to be described and rendered on the fly in the imagination.

The game is vastly more fun than watching the cutscene, but THE STORY AND THE DIALOGUE AND THE ACTING SURE AIN'T BETTER.

I reckon.

Quote from: mhensleyDoes your store sell more GW minis stuff now that GW has tried to stop internet stores from selling their stuff ?

 Honestly, I have not noticed an uptick in sales because of THAT. I thought we were fetting more GW customers just because word-of-mouth was getting around that we carried them.

By-the-way , Knoxville , TENN ?  You live near one of our other branches. Send me a PM and I'll tell you which store.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Erik BoielleThey are - now imagine the Dawn of War cutscene, only the Marine Commander is being played by Phil, who is stoned and the Inquisitor is Steve who spent half the session reading a sourcebook and and the dialogue is interspered with comments and the pacing breaks down every time someone throws the dice and, and there are no graphics and everything has to be described and rendered on the fly in the imagination.

The game is vastly more fun than watching the cutscene, but THE STORY AND THE DIALOGUE AND THE ACTING SURE AIN'T BETTER.

I reckon.

Phil and Steve wouldn't last very long at my table.  That aside, I don't see how "OMG THIS CUTSCENE ROXXORZ" supports your basic argument here.

QuoteThat aside, I don't see how "OMG THIS CUTSCENE ROXXORZ" supports your basic argument here.

Because its a little story that is AT LEAST as good as the story and acting you get in a (good) roleplaying session, and is also an almost exact rendition of how I see warhammer in computer game form (at least in terms of, yknow, Attitude).

So you can't say Real Warhammer wouldn't work as a roleplaying game because...

Quote from: Erik BoielleBecause its a little story that is AT LEAST as good as the story and acting you get in a (good) roleplaying session, and is also an almost exact rendition of how I see warhammer in computer game form (at least in terms of, yknow, Attitude).

So you can't say Real Warhammer wouldn't work as a roleplaying game because...

If you're concerned the 40K RGP will be about playing rat catchers and pig farmers in space, then you may have misread BI's announcements...

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeIf you're concerned the 40K RGP will be about playing rat catchers and pig farmers in space, then you may have misread BI's announcements...

Eh. They have made comments about Marines being Too Powerful (like battlewizards, I guess), and the guy writing it does things like not list codexes as sources for for fear, he says, of upsetting people.

And the adventures certainly sound like Call of Cthulhu adventures in space. Which would be fine, if there were more ninjas. And less sneaking around being scared and more macho rambo shit.

Irreparable damage, I say.

--

Er, another example - the collected cutscenes from Shinobi -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5lzdO__YGQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wv0muRybM8k

Its about a hardcore ninja (Imperial Eversor Assassin, possibly), but, yknow, its got characters and storys and whatnot. At least to the level required for roleplaying. Even on a very good day.

Quote from: Erik BoielleAnd the adventures certainly sound like Call of Cthulhu adventures in space. Which would be fine, if there were more ninjas. And less sneaking around being scared and more macho rambo shit.

Irreparable damage, I say.

I'm guessing you haven't read any of the Inquisitor novels which the first game will be based on?  It's hard to get more badass than this-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregor_Eisenhorn

Quote from: mhensleyI'm guessing you haven't read any of the Inquisitor novels which the first game will be based on?  It's hard to get more badass than this-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregor_Eisenhorn

In the game, you get to play his henchmen, doing the jobs not important enough for him to bother with personally.

:-/

So once again, as so many shitfuckingly idiotic Erik arguments before, it turns out in the end that he hasn't even fucking played or read any of the games in discussion.  

how entirely unsurprising.

Quote from: J ArcaneSo once again, as so many shitfuckingly idiotic Erik arguments before, it turns out in the end that he hasn't even fucking played or read any of the games in discussion.  

how entirely unsurprising.

If having a half-assed opinion of a game you've never played is a sin, then count me among the sinners.  Admittedly, I've never been as strident about games I don't play as Erik.  'WFRP should be more like Warhammer Fantasy should be more like 40K should be more like this computer game's cutscenes' is just an odd way to construct an argument.

Quote from: J ArcaneSo once again, as so many shitfuckingly idiotic Erik arguments before, it turns out in the end that he hasn't even fucking played or read any of the games in discussion.  

how entirely unsurprising.

I've certainly READ wfb. Articles going back to 1980 something probably. And I've been halfheartedly painting minis for it for at least as long. And I've played everything else. I think.

Arn't you trying to argue that Call of Cthulhu is all about the cosmic horror and not at all about the tommy guns in the other thread there?

AY! ESS ESS! AITCH OH! EL EEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

Quote from: jrients'WFRP should be more like Warhammer Fantasy should be more like 40K should be more like this computer game's cutscenes' is just an odd way to construct an argument.

Computer games are the principle culture of almost everyone under 35 these days.

I reckon.

Quote from: jrientsIf having a half-assed opinion of a game you've never played is a sin, then count me among the sinners.  Admittedly, I've never been as strident about games I don't play as Erik.  'WFRP should be more like Warhammer Fantasy should be more like 40K should be more like this computer game's cutscenes' is just an odd way to construct an argument.

It's just goalpost shifting.  Once he realized everyone else but him had actually played WFB and now knew he hadn't, he had to find a new target.

At it's base, it's still idiotic.  His point is still moot.  D&D already caters quite well to the power fantasy set, and there's no reason to believe that Games Workshop would somehow magically be able to change that over night.  Exalted did it even better, and probably closer to the wankfest Erik is creaming all over, and I don't see it knocking off the top spot anywhere except on RPGnet, which as we all know, is not real life.

What this is really about, is that Erik is a damn troll, with a distinct signature style, and this thread fits that to a tee, right down to it turning out that he doesn't even play the damn games, or know a damn thing about them.

Quote from: Erik BoielleIn the game, you get to play his henchmen, doing the jobs not important enough for him to bother with personally.

:-/

Those that want to play inquisitors ferreting out evil get to buy the 1st book next year.  Those that don't want to get to wait a couple more years when the 3rd one comes out that is built around the Marines.  

But as for the merits of the game, it'll be a quality product that the current WFRPG is.  In fact the first books overall theme will very much be WFRPG in the 40k setting and it's going to sell like mad.

Except that GW seem to do well in the power wank sector of every other market they seem to approach...

Quote from: Erik BoielleIn the game, you get to play his henchmen, doing the jobs not important enough for him to bother with personally.

:-/

See. That is the sort of arguement that would get you more support if you lead with it.

Indeed, why is it assumed that playing the henchmen of an inquisitor or rogue trader is going to be the 'cool way' to play the game? If the game doesn't support my players being the bad-ass inquisitors themselves it's going to be flawed. Nobody wants to play the second stringers.

QuoteIndeed, why is it assumed that playing the henchmen of an inquisitor or rogue trader is going to be the 'cool way' to play the game?

Well, my argument is that it is because of a terribly unhealthy 'we are so better than those morons at GW' culture that sprung up on Strike to Stun and Critical hit, which more or less demanded putting as much space between the mythical WFRPv1 which existed only in their minds and WFB. Which has unfortunatly been conveyed to BI by constant bleating, not smacked down early enough by right thinking people.

Says I.

Quote from: Erik BoielleWell, my argument is that it is because of a terribly unhealthy 'we are so better than those morons at GW' culture that sprung up on Strike to Stun and Critical hit, which more or less demanded putting as much space between the mythical WFRPv1 which existed only in their minds and WFB. Which has unfortunatly been conveyed to BI by constant bleating, not smacked down early enough by right thinking people.

The situations aren't really comparable though. In WFRP, even the flea-ridden Charcoal Burners get to wander around getting into trouble wherever they please. They aren't subordinate to a GMPC. And do you know for certain that DH doesn't support playing an Inquisitor?

Quote from: Erik BoielleComputer games are the principle culture of almost everyone under 35 these days.

Even if that were true (Which I doubt.  Everyone under 35 is a LOT of the world's population.) looking to computer games for how to improve and RPG will only end in tears.  Because everything both media do, the computer can do faster and probably better.

Keep in mind that I don't disagree with your basic idea that many (most) gamers like to kick ass and that on its face WFRP seems written in opposition to that.  But man, you sure do seem to be twisting strangely to support that basic point.

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeAnd do you know for certain that DH doesn't support playing an Inquisitor?

I think it does.

But the default is lackeys, so all the adventures are gonna be for lackeys, its not gonna have the kind of support that Vampire has for playing Vampires that Vampire has, only for playing inquisitors (if you take my meaning - in OWoD the first thing you do is choose what kind of vampire you want to be - do I want to be a cultured vampire who hangs around in bars, or an animalisic vampire who hangs around in bars etc. Its all about your place in Vampire society, and helping you make a character who is gonna make an interesting vampire) and in the final analysis, everyone is gonna play lackeys.

All because of a misguided belief that No One Really Likes That Stupid Games Workshop High Fantasy Macho Shit (arn't I smart fap fap fap).

--

Quotelooking to computer games for how to improve and RPG will only end in tears. Because everything both media do, the computer can do faster and probably better.

Well, it comes from musing on a comment someone made about Dungeons and Dragons not competing with other roleplaying games but instead with anything that people can spend time on. Which means video games, these days.

I think the main selling points of roleplaying over video games are:-

1: Its social - you do it with your mates, face to face
2: You can do your own dialogue
3: The world takes more notice of what you do

But, I mean, the video games I'm playing at the moment are Onimusha: Dawn of Dreams and Shinobido. I like these stories. I like characters like Soki - Oni of the Ash and Goh the Crow. I like the interaction they have with people in the cutscenes.

And I mean, these guys arn't exactly unusual in the computer game world.

I reckon these dudes are the 'Heros' of current likly roleplayers. Er, I'm old enough to dig lara Croft* and Grove Champion** the most, but I can't imagine The Youth don't love theirs as much.

So, in essence, if you deny people the ability to play these kinds of characters in these kinds of stories, not only do you need to find people who arn't playing computer games RIGHT NOW, you almost need people who ACTIVELY DON'T LIKE VIDEO GAME CULTURE, which is a dwindling source, right?

That is a tangent of my own though, although I think it shows my working.

*Tomb Raider. No bloody II. No bloody III and Certainly no bloody angel of darkness:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a0FosttxRY

**And oh god did I love Interstate 76:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JCGZFQZkdc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1itNvx7CsY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJ9JuGBR1Ro

Quote from: Erik BoielleAnd I mean, these guys arn't exactly unusual in the computer game world.

    ??   ???    ?????
So, in essence, if you deny people the ability to play these kinds of characters in these kinds of stories, not only do you need to find people who arn't playing computer games RIGHT NOW, you almost need people who ACTIVELY DON'T LIKE VIDEO GAME CULTURE, which is a dwindling source, right?

 WRONG

 NOT "everyone" is playing fricking computer games - even those younger than 35.

 I actively don't like video game culture.

...and no that isn't a dwindling source.
Those online "WoW" kind of things eat up a lot of time and money. What I see more of is people trying to switch away from those or lessen the amount of time that they spend online with those things.
Some couples almost break up over one of the partners spending too much timne online on those games - uinless they figure  out a way to play then together.

 At least with a roleplaying "ata table" type game a couple could play it together, at the same time. The same is true for WARHAMMER miniatures at a table.
Remember the young lady I mentioned earlier in the thread? I believe she plays with her boyfriend and their friends once a month. Its something they do together.  (She happened to stop in the store just before my shift was ending tonight.)

Erik B., I think you are working with a lot of assumptions that just arn't true.

- Ed C.

Sorry, a little late to the party. Brief foray back onto topic...

I knew a chap (in the UK) who worked in the local GW store. He was a big fan of everything GW (and was a good evangelist too, got me playing Necromunda and a few other things) and after a couple of years he ended up as the manager of the store. That's when it all went a bit wrong. He never really said why he left the store and the hobby but he wasn't happy with the way it went.

I think it was not the big evil corporation but the change that happens when your hobby that you enjoy to relax in your own way becomes your job and livelihood. He connected GW with fun because that was his hobby. When he was simply a drone at the store (painting, working the tills, demonstrating games) he was really doing his hobby. When he got to see the workings of GW, he must have felt quite disappointed that behind his fun hobby was something unscrupulous.

I don't have enough san left to continue participating in this thread.

Quote from: BalbinusI don't have enough san left to continue participating in this thread.

It veered off topic and became The Comedy Stylings of Erik Boille a long time ago...:rolleyes:

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeThe situations aren't really comparable though. In WFRP, even the flea-ridden Charcoal Burners get to wander around getting into trouble wherever they please. They aren't subordinate to a GMPC. And do you know for certain that DH doesn't support playing an Inquisitor?

If you can't then their potential sales just halved. It's like that LUG star trek game where you had to fudge the rules just to allow players to play the sort of characters the game is meant to emulate, not Joey Redshirt.

Dark Heresy has the pc's starting off as part of an Inquisitor's retinue, performing various different missions at the behest of their master. With time and experience they can eventually attain the rank of Inquisitor, although it'll be a tough and deadly goal that only are capable of attaining.

Alternatively you could just start the game with experienced characters who are already in the Inquisitor career.

Quote from: DrewWith time and experience they can eventually attain the rank of Inquisitor, although it'll be a tough and deadly goal that only are capable of attaining.

Or, yknow, I can load up the playstation and be Solid Snake.

In fact, I think I will.





Excuse me.

Quote from: Erik BoielleOr, yknow, I can load up the playstation and be Solid Snake.

In fact, I think I will.





Excuse me.

Or you could get some exercise, or kiss a girl, or do any one of a million things that have fuck all to do with Dark Heresy.

Quote from: DrewOr you could get some exercise, or kiss a girl, or do any one of a million things that have fuck all to do with Dark Heresy.

Well exactly. But if you want to play the game you have to sell the game to your players.

And you are in competition with DnD or Metal Gear Solid, or going to the pub or whatever.

Quote from: Erik BoielleWell exactly. But if you want to play the game you have to sell the game to your players.

And you are in competition with DnD or Metal Gear Solid, or going to the pub or whatever.

...or you could state the bleedin' obvious.

Quote from: Erik BoielleWell exactly. But if you want to play the game you have to sell the game to your players.

And you are in competition with DnD or Metal Gear Solid, or going to the pub or whatever.

You are a bit of an idiot aren't you.

You do realise that those other activities are vastly more popular than roleplaying. Right?

And even within roleplaying, DnD and Vampire and Exalted are vastly more popular than anything else.

Sure, in the long run roleplaying is gonna disappear but I see no reason to make it worse than it needs to be. Especially for one of the few names who might be able to bring new people in.

I just don't think its a good idea to end up with things that not only ARN'T video games, but arn't even about the same things that enormously popular video games are about.

Quote from: Erik Boielle
I just don't think

I cut out all the useless parts to narrow in on what you really are trying to say through all that verbal diarrhea.  The existence of RPG's are not hinging on one game despite whatever pedestal you have set it up on and then promptly knocked it off of.  Video game fans are not going to go and snap up the RPG because it's based on similar content any more then the are going to rush down to their local hobby store and start buying mini's because they like Dawn of War.  Get your head out of your ass and stop trolling.  Dark Heresy has an audience it's as simple as that.  Changing the game one way or another is going to pick up fans and loose others.  You can't base popularity of a game, yet released, based on the braying of internet fanboys.

Quoterush down to their local hobby store and start buying mini's because they like Dawn of War.

Actually, GW seem to talk a lot about Blood Ravens these days, and they have done three novelisations, which is a tie in.

(http://www.csgoto.com/dow.ht10.jpg)

(http://www.csgoto.com/ascens11.jpg)

(http://www.csgoto.com/tempes12.jpg)

(http://www.minivault.com/images/BRCmdrFace.JPG)

(http://www.minivault.com/images/BrScoutsGroup1.JPG)

(http://www.minivault.com/images/BRS3Group.JPG)

(http://fr.games-workshop.com/40k/space_marines/BloodRavens/armee_turner/img/Blood_raven%20army%20shot.jpg)

(http://photofile.ru/photo/belfast/2097856/large/34388768.jpg)

(http://grafika.cytadela.pl/articles/328e.jpg)

(http://www.beyondbeyond.com/miniatures/warhammer/bloodravenvet.jpg)

(http://fr.games-workshop.com/40k/space_marines/BloodRavens/armee_straw/img/armyshot.jpg)

(http://grafika.cytadela.pl/articles/328d.jpg)

(http://photofile.ru/photo/belfast/2097856/large/34388766.jpg)

http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/painting-blood-ravens/1/

QuoteDark Heresy has an audience it's as simple as that.

It just isn't as big as it could be.

Kryyst ,
 You need to get some sort of prize for that.

 He still posted -  right after you nailed him to the wall

- Ed C.

Erik, what are all the pretty pictures supposed to be proving?

Erik: why don't you write up a serious proposal and mail it to GW. I mean, you'd have to seriously tone down your Crazy Man schtick, and you'd probably also benefit from getting a recognizable 'name' onboard. Go the full 9 yards - do a market demographics section, write up a few sample pages of rules and scenario ideas. I'd avoid spamming them with GW artwork, but you could reference the computer game properties in the 'Atmosphere and Themes' section.

It seems the energy you waste yelling at people over the internet could be better spent designing this Holy Grail of RPGs you envision. Heck, if your theory is right you could even get rich! :D

Quote from: jrientsErik, what are all the pretty pictures supposed to be proving?

Sorry - the Blood Ravens are a chapter invented for dawn of war - they are the guys you play in the campaign in the first game.

All those pictures are of Blood Raven minis people have rushed to the store to buy after playing the game.

Course, not all of them might be video gamers with no prior interest in minis (I mean, if they are and they can paint that well it isn't fair), but there you go.

Quote from: Erik BoielleSorry - the Blood Ravens are a chapter invented for dawn of war - they are the guys you play in the campaign in the first game.

All those pictures are of Blood Raven minis people have rushed to the store to buy after playing the game.

Course, not all of them might be video gamers with no prior interest in minis (I mean, if they are and they can paint that well it isn't fair), but there you go.

Do you have any info on the production numbers for those figures?  If they are in line with any other line, then I would conclude that they are simply the hot thing among the already extant 40K fanbase.  If they produced and sold ten times as many as any other marine chapter, then you could argue we've got a crossover hit here.

Quote from: Erik BoielleCourse, not all of them might be video gamers with no prior interest in minis (I mean, if they are and they can paint that well it isn't fair), but there you go.

No, not all of them might be video gamers....  I'd wager that almost none of them  were video gamers, that suddenly said "HOLY CRAP there's a mini game based on this - I gotta get a piece of that action".   You have an amazingly skewed perception of reality.  I mean sure it's good humor to post off of but if you believe even half the shit you are trying to spew you need to stand back and take a look at the bigger picture.

GW produces 40k the hugely successful mini-game.  They then license it out to THQ to make a video game based on it.  That video game sells primarily to 40k fans who like video games, it's secondary crowd are pure video game fans, and it's tertiary crowd are 40k fans who aren't big video game fans.

Dawn of War sells well and gets raving reviews - So time to put marketing to work.  They have a line of books on almost all their other source material so it's simple enough to release a line of books based on Dawn of War.  Since 40k  [mini] fans are buying the game they might as well pander to them and release a line of mini's to go along with the game.  It's a pretty direct path.  A long the way a few video game fans who were generally oblivious to the 40k mini game may step in and pick it up but it's far from the norm.

None of this at all of course has any bearing on the RPG, which is being released in 3 stages.  Dark Heresy is localized effectively WFRP in space.  Next they hit up Rogue Trader and send the gaming to the fringes of the world, pretty much Firefly in space if you will.  Then they step in with the big guns and release which will basically be the Space Marine rpg.  Of course over this entire time line other books are going to be released flushing out the 40k world into an rpg format, a very daunting task in it's own right.  So you want your Space Marine rpg - you just get to wait longer.

Quote from: Erik BoielleI just don't think its a good idea to end up with things that not only ARN'T video games, but arn't even about the same things that enormously popular video games are about.

Then you'd probably be better off on a fucking video games forum, instead of continually threadcrapping here with this tired old shit.

Seriously. Name five rpgs based off 'enormously popular' video games that have gone on to dominate the tabletop market. If it were the simple equation you claim it to be then the market should be littered with such examples.

Quote from: DrewSeriously. Name five rpgs based off 'enormously popular' video games that have gone on to dominate the tabletop market. If it were the simple equation you claim it to be then the market should be littered with such examples.

Well, I mean LOTS of video games stole DnDs clothes (onimusha:dod characters have levels and hp and gain xp for instance).

Exalted stole Final Fantasies clothes, more or less.

And that right there is most of the gaming that gets done isn't it?

Games like video games do dominate gaming, for one reason or another. That is the mainstream - and if you arn't going for that then you are going for a fringe market.

You know, I play a lot of video games, it's a big part of the stuff I enjoy.

I don't want my rpgs to be like video games, I have video games for that.

It's like making the novels I read more like video games, it's a category error.

Put another way, WTF?

So, Erik.  Why can't I think of a 40K lookalike RPG that's popular?  Mutant Chronicles is due out for a new edition, but that hasn't been exactly a breakout hit.  Rifts is comparable in many ways, but has a cult following at best and a cult CULT following at worst.  Am I missing something?

Quote from: Erik BoielleWell, I mean LOTS of video games stole DnDs clothes (onimusha:dod characters have levels and hp and gain xp for instance).

I asked you to name successful rpg's that were based off video games, not the other way around. Did you bother to read my post?

QuoteExalted stole Final Fantasies clothes, more or less.

If you polled a representative sample of Exalted gamers the most likely influences you'd be cited are anime and manga, followed by ancient mythology, followed by Final Fantasy as a distant third. Have you actually read any of Exalted, in either addition? More importantly, have you played it? I'm guessing not. Big swords and combos does not constitute "stealing clothes," unless there's a hidden population of Moogles in the game no-one told me about.

QuoteAnd that right there is most of the gaming that gets done isn't it?

How you reached this conclusion (especially in light of my first point) is a complete mystery. You've categorically failed to respond to my challenge, so I'll repeat it again:

Name five rpgs based off 'enormously popular' video games that have gone on to dominate the tabletop market.

Quote from: jrientsSo, Erik.  Why can't I think of a 40K lookalike RPG that's popular?

On the plus side, there arn't any popular scifi rpgs that arn't like 40K.

:-)

Meaning scifi rpgs haven't really approached DnD or Exalted levels.

Nor will any kind of 40K RPG, probably, but such things are relative.

By the same standard there arn't really any fantasy games that approach DnD or even Exalted levels that arn't like them. Er. I think.

A 40K rpg focusing on muscles, oversized swords and big guns would be conceptually similar to DnD and Exalted. It would have the backing of the Games Workshop name.

As an aside, I'd totally try a tabletop RPG where you played an Italian plumber who bonked evil mushrooms with a mallet while trying to save a princess from a maniacal turtle.

Quote from: jrientsAs an aside, I'd totally try a tabletop RPG where you played an Italian plumber who bonked evil mushrooms with a mallet while trying to save a princess from a maniacal turtle.

Everything's possible on Al Amarja...

Exalted doesn't begin to approach D&D levels of popularity, to speak of them in the same sentence is not really right.

Nothing approaches D&D levels of popularity.

I'll even give Erik a helping hand, as he seems to be struggling here:

EverQuest RPG: Failed

World of Warcraft d20: Failed

Streetfighter RPG: Failed

But I'm sure he's aware of this, and right now is busily gathering data to utterly annihilate my challenge...

Quote from: Erik BoielleMeaning scifi rpgs haven't really approached DnD or Exalted levels.

Traveller once occupied the second chair held later by Vampire and Exalted, but that was a long time ago.

Speaking of a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, the most popular sci-fi RPG I can name right now isn't set in anything resembling a grim future of only war, and the dudes in heavy armor are generally the bad guys.

Quote from: jrientsAs an aside, I'd totally try a tabletop RPG where you played an Italian plumber who bonked evil mushrooms with a mallet while trying to save a princess from a maniacal turtle.

Exalted would be perfect for this...

Sorry. Wrong Message Board. ;)

Quote from: jrientsSpeaking of a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, the most popular sci-fi RPG I can name right now isn't set in anything resembling a grim future of only war, and the dudes in heavy armor are generally the bad guys.

Its got Jedi. Who are unberbadases.

Dark Maul isn't a million miles away from a Chaos Space Marine.

If you squint.

I mean, I'm talking conceptually here. Dark brooding warriors and all that.

Right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOIxOQD2zRA





I mean, I used to play it as rebels in a freighter (ALWAYS! EVERY FUCKING TIME CALLED THE ALUMINIUM MALLARD! AND TWICE THAT WAS BECAUSE I FOOLISHLY MADE A JOKE ABOUT HOW THE SHIP ALWAYS ENDED UP CALLED THE ALUMINIUM MALLARD AND HOW SILLY THAT WAS!!!!! ARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHH!). And I was happy with it.

But I just don't know if the kids wouldn't rather be Jedi...

I mean, a Star Wars high powered Jedi campaign is just the sort of thing I'd want from a Space Marine game.

It all comes down to an almighty duel between the loyal marine and the chaos marine who betrayed him.

With big ass powerswords.

On a cliff.

In a storm.

Yknow?










I mean, it wouldn't be hard to reimagine this:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h38VV7qkYNc

in to a 40K vibe right?

You have the ancient veteran Brother Jinn and his young Apprentice Brother Kenobi who are liberating the world Naboo IV from the armies of the Blood Pact Cult when they are confronted by Brother Maul of the Thousand Sons...

QuoteTraveller once occupied the second chair held later by Vampire and Exalted, but that was a long time ago.

"Not as clumsy or as testosterone laden as Warhammer, but an elegant game for a more civilized age."

 -Setti-Wan-Kenobi

Quote from: Settembrini"Not as clumsy or as testosterone laden as Warhammer, but an elegant game for a more civilized age."

 -Setti-Wan-Kenobi

 Damn Sett!,

 You and I finally agree on something.

- Ed C.

Quote from: jrientsAs an aside, I'd totally try a tabletop RPG where you played an Italian plumber who bonked evil mushrooms with a mallet while trying to save a princess from a maniacal turtle.

And once again Gnome apothecaries get the shaft.

Here's a question, Boille. Can you briefly (and coherently) summarize your position without bringing up Star Wars or Exalted or "cut-scenes" from video games or posting a link? What is your "point", if you have one? :confused:

WFRP 2e is a POPULAR rpg (by pen and paper standards) even though Games Workshop did not pimp the game AT ALL. It's probably in the top 5 as far as 'pen and paper' rpg popularity goes, and might even be the number 2 rpg worldwide, if you count popularity outside North America.

Granted, White Wolf is the number 2 rpg COMPANY, but it doesn't necessarily mean they have the number 2 RPG. They do have more than 1 rpg, after all.

Can you more coherently explain what your beef with WFRP 2e is? Because it's an EXCELLENT game. Is it not "violence-porny" enough for you? :confused:  If you believe that, then you haven't read the book. And if you're so obsessed with being a "violence-porn" ass-kicker, why not just start off with an advanced career for some warrior-type? It'll work, believe me.

From a business standpoint, it is common sense to STRONGLY ADVERTISE anything containing your IP. If GW pimped the rpg, it would INDIRECTLY strengthen the IP of their other Warhammer properties.

You don't put all your eggs in one basket, even if it's a big basket (like minis). I mean, honestly, in their GW stores, they should be pimping Warhammer minis, computer games, rpgs, t-shirts, coffee mugs, and Warhammer-cola to boot. The company IS less profitable, and they should do SOMETHING to fix the cracks in the dam. Pimping the rpg alone won't do that, but it IS indeed ONE thing among MANY things they can do to help their company.

Another question: Is the casualty rate in the game too high for you? If so, I don't see why. Warriors die left and right in the minis game. Without casualties, no one would win a battle... :duel:

Quote from: Sacrificial LambHere's a question, Boille. Can you briefly (and coherently) summarize your position without bringing up Star Wars or Exalted or "cut-scenes" from video games or posting a link? What is your "point", if you have one? :confused:

That's the M.O, i'm afraid. When people give up, victory will be announced and the balance of the internet will be restored.

In fairness to Erik, I was the one who brought up Star Wars, not he.

I'd like to add something. I believe that advertising has as much of an influence on sales and popularity as the quality of the game itself, and that WFRP 2e isn't nearly as popular as it could be, because it wasn't properly marketed. If GW had done what they were supposed to do with the rpg, WFRP 2e would SOLIDLY (without a doubt) be the number 2 rpg, and actually be in a position to give D&D a run for its money (though I don't think it would ever quite reach the sales that D&D has).

And here's the great thing. Since GW licenses the game to Green Ronin (or is it Black Industries..? :confused: ), they wouldn't need to deal with the headaches of producing the game themselves. They just need to stock the game, and advertise, and watch as roleplayers pick up Warhammer minis to supplement their game. :)

That is my belief. Take it as you will. :cool:

Quote from: jrientsIn fairness to Erik, I was the one who brought up Star Wars, not he.

Fair enough.

Quote from: signoftheserpentI never played the miniatures stuff since I hate paiting and paying for them. However once i went into my local GW interested in the 40K ccg, which I actually like, and was told they don't stock it.

Yeah they aren't going to stock the W40K RPG when that comes out either. Those shops like the post says just sell miniatures, paints, cases, brushes, etc.

I love WFRP 2nd ed.  It's my current favorite RGP of all time.  But if you think

Quote from: Sacrificial LambIf GW had done what they were supposed to do with the rpg, WFRP 2e would SOLIDLY (without a doubt) be the number 2 rpg, and actually be in a position to give D&D a run for its money (though I don't think it would ever quite reach the sales that D&D has).

this is true you are sadly mistaken.  It may very well be 2nd in popularity to D&D  in terms of how well known it is.  But in terms of sales to suggest it'd give D&D a run for it's money is laughable.  If you put WFRP 1st ed and 2nd together it's not even a blip on the D&D juggernaut.  Hell I know players that love GW's mini games but won't buy the RPG, favouring D&D instead.

Quote from: kryystI love WFRP 2nd ed.  It's my current favorite RGP of all time.  But if you think this is true you are sadly mistaken.  It may very well be 2nd in popularity to D&D  in terms of how well known it is.  But in terms of sales to suggest it'd give D&D a run for it's money is laughable.  If you put WFRP 1st ed and 2nd together it's not even a blip on the D&D juggernaut.  Hell I know players that love GW's mini games but won't buy the RPG, favouring D&D instead.

I agree with you, WFRP 2e has only a fraction of the sales of D&D 3.5, but why is that? I think it's advertising, or rather the lack of advertising for the rpg (and the lack of levels). And I was only saying it could give D&D a run for its money if it was marketed PROPERLY (which it isn't).

GW isn't even trying, and that is a mistake.

Quote from: Sacrificial LambI agree with you, WFRP 2e has only a fraction of the sales of D&D 3.5, but why is that? I think it's advertising, or rather the lack of advertising for the rpg (and the lack of levels). And I was only saying it could give D&D a run for its money if it was marketed PROPERLY (which it isn't).

GW isn't even trying, and that is a mistake.

Sorry just not going to happen.  Even if they marketed the hell out of it it's not going to do anything and they'd probably pay more in marketing then the extra sales they'd gain.  You have D&D fans and you have 'other' fans you can put a dent into the 'other' fans but you just won't sway away the core D&D fans.  Not sure if you remember or not but when WFRP 2nd ed came out one of the top complaints about it was that it wasn't being released in D20.

Quote from: kryystSorry just not going to happen.  Even if they marketed the hell out of it it's not going to do anything and they'd probably pay more in marketing then the extra sales they'd gain.  You have D&D fans and you have 'other' fans you can put a dent into the 'other' fans but you just won't sway away the core D&D fans.  Not sure if you remember or not but when WFRP 2nd ed came out one of the top complaints about it was that it wasn't being released in D20.

This relates to a point I made many, many pages ago. All GW need do is devote some shelf space to it in their stores, have the staff talk it up and run some demos. It'd be comparatively cheap to market, and therefore low risk. For a small initial outlay the game would be exposed to tens of thousands of young gamers across hundreds of dedicated stores worldwide who've already bought into the Warhammer mythology. Even Wizards couldn't compete with that.

Of course it might not take off at all, but for a company who's profits are shrinking at a near catastrophic rate it's exactly the kind of thing I think they need to be considering.

Quote from: DrewThis relates to a point I made many, many pages ago. All GW need do is devote some shelf space to it in their stores, have the staff talk it up and run some demos. It'd be comparatively cheap to market, and therefore low risk. For a small initial outlay the game would be exposed to tens of thousands of young gamers across hundreds of dedicated stores worldwide who've already bought into the Warhammer mythology. Even Wizards couldn't compete with that.

Of course it might not take off at all, but for a company who's profits are shrinking at a near catastrophic rate it's exactly the kind of thing I think they need to be considering.

While I don't necessarily agree that putting the RPG into Games Workshop stores is going to have a significant impact one way or another.  I think they should for a few reasons.  

1) It creates brand solidarity so that people have a 1 stop shop if they are looking for all things Warhammer.
2) Potential to lure RPG fans to the mini-game and vice versa.
3) It costs them nothing to do

Quote from: kryyst1) It creates brand solidarity so that people have a 1 stop shop if they are looking for all things Warhammer.
2) Potential to lure RPG fans to the mini-game and vice versa.
3) It costs them nothing to do

Pretty much. Any rpg company you care to mention would kill for that kind of exposure.

Quote from: kryyst3) It costs them nothing to do

I'd definitely love to see GW have RPGs in their stores again. I can remember being very disappointed when they stopped selling them, so many years ago. And even if it was only BI games, that would still be great.

However, it's gotta be said: it would most definitely NOT cost GW NOTHING to sell WFRP in their stores. Beyond the obvious stock factors (storage, sales, accounting, support, promotion, etc, all of which are genuine profit issues), they don't publish the game. They don't even write the game. It would not be a non-cost process.

Besides all that, it's also a non-issue. GW decided a long time ago that any possible returns from RPGs were far too limited for their business plans. Sadly, they are right. In fact, that they actually licenced the property at all seems rather gracious, in the grand corporate scheme of things.

- Q

Quote from: jrientsTraveller once occupied the second chair held later by Vampire and Exalted, but that was a long time ago.

Speaking of a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, the most popular sci-fi RPG I can name right now isn't set in anything resembling a grim future of only war, and the dudes in heavy armor are generally the bad guys.

:rolleyes:

The Star Wars movies were completely based off video games.

I don't know about you, but I've been jonesing for an RPG based on the Atari 2600 Empire Strikes Back game for decades.

-O

Quote from: obryn:rolleyes:

The Star Wars movies were completely based off video games.

I don't know about you, but I've been jonesing for an RPG based on the Atari 2600 Empire Strikes Back game for decades.

-O

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f8/Pong.png/250px-Pong.png)

"Use the force, Luke."

Quote from: obryn:rolleyes:

The Star Wars movies were completely based off video games.

I don't know about you, but I've been jonesing for an RPG based on the Atari 2600 Empire Strikes Back game for decades.

-O

 Hardly!!!

 When STAR WARS:ANH and TESB came out - there weren't that many Video Games. I know , I was a teenager then. What video games there were - were mainly coin op.  I remember one coin-op game my friends and used to play - simple  white on black screen display , but everybody you blew up an enemy starship it would spin and look like a Starfleet ship from STAR TREK. (NOT Star Wars)

- Ed C.

Quote from: KoltarHardly!!!

 When STAR WARS:ANH and TESB came out - there weren't that many Video Games. I know , I was a teenager then. What video games there were - were mainly coin op.  I remember one coin-op game my friends and used to play - simple  white on black screen display , but everybody you blew up an enemy starship it would spin and look like a Starfleet ship from STAR TREK. (NOT Star Wars)

- Ed C.

Yeah, and thank God they made a TV show from those great Star Trek arcade games!!

Those vector-drawn ones had the best cutscenes.

-O

Quote from: QuireI'd definitely love to see GW have RPGs in their stores again. I can remember being very disappointed when they stopped selling them, so many years ago. And even if it was only BI games, that would still be great.

However, it's gotta be said: it would most definitely NOT cost GW NOTHING to sell WFRP in their stores. Beyond the obvious stock factors (storage, sales, accounting, support, promotion, etc, all of which are genuine profit issues), they don't publish the game. They don't even write the game. It would not be a non-cost process.

Besides all that, it's also a non-issue. GW decided a long time ago that any possible returns from RPGs were far too limited for their business plans. Sadly, they are right. In fact, that they actually licenced the property at all seems rather gracious, in the grand corporate scheme of things.

- Q

Yep.

Sadly when they stopped designing role playing games and licensed the properties out to other companies it was made clear that RPGS as a whole is not worth their time.

The profit margin for miniatures is higher and they would rather have the space for things that make them more more.

That's why when I have gone into several game stores the game tables were being used for Warhammer 40k, rpgs seemed to be an afterthought.

Quote from: Blue DevilYep.

Sadly when they stopped designing role playing games and licensed the properties out to other companies it was made clear that RPGS as a whole is not worth their time.

The profit margin for miniatures is higher and they would rather have the space for things that make them more more.

That's why when I have gone into several game stores the game tables were being used for Warhammer 40k, rpgs seemed to be an afterthought.

Yeah, WFRP was always seen as the poor cousin, which is why they stopped supporting it entirely.

The irony is that whilst the vast majority of 40k and WFB customers from the 80's were replaced with an ever younger, ever changing set of fans WFRP players like myself are still around. It may not have been the most profitable revenue stream, but lifetime custom is something that few businessess with sense disregard.

Quote from: Blue DevilSadly when they stopped designing role playing games and licensed the properties out to other companies it was made clear that RPGS as a whole is not worth their time.

The profit margin for miniatures is higher and they would rather have the space for things that make them more more.

That's why when I have gone into several game stores the game tables were being used for Warhammer 40k, rpgs seemed to be an afterthought.

The really ironic thing about this is the huge success that wotc has had with their D&D minis game.  Rpg players clearly drive the sales- not players of the minis game itself.

Quote from: DrewName five rpgs based off 'enormously popular' video games that have gone on to dominate the tabletop market.

World of Warcraft d20
Everquest RPG
Starcraft d20
Diablo d20
...


Don't you know that all of those rpgs are so popular that they've below your elitist radar? Everyone is playing them!

Quote from: WilWorld of Warcraft d20
Everquest RPG
Starcraft d20
Diablo d20
...


Don't you know that all of those rpgs are so popular that they've below your elitist radar? Everyone is playing them!

Heh. I direct your attention to post #242....;)

Quote from: DrewHeh. I direct your attention to post #242....;)

Dude, I'm surprised I even posted in the right thread. You expect me to know what has already transpired? :D

Quote from: WilDude, I'm surprised I even posted in the right thread. You expect me to know what has already transpired? :D

If anyone has the courage, will and sheer masochistic tenacity to read this thread in it's entirety then I'll buy them a pint. :D

The best computer game to RPG conversion was Rune, and I still can't find more than 2 people willing to give it a spin. It was a great read though.

All of this would be relevant if DnD and Exalted weren't much like computer games. DnD because computergames stole from it shamelessly, and Exalted because it stole shamelessly from computergames.

Is that statement wrong? There arn't really any popular roleplaying game based on anything else! DnD is DnD these days, and Vampire wasn't a licence, even though it rips off vampire movies etc. in the same way Exalted rips off video games.

You don't play MERP - you play DnD. No one had heard of Lovecraft before call of cthulhu, and its ripping off horror movies anyway. Vampire isn't Ann Rice, the roleplaying game, its Vampire.

And Star Wars is Star Wars, which gets more like a video game all the time.

And a warhammer rpg that acts like a video game wouldn't qualify either! It would be a warhammer roleplaying game that steals shamelessly from video games!

And its not like video games havent stolen from other places - just that they tend to have teir own spin.

Quote from: Erik BoielleNo one had heard of Lovecraft before call of cthulhu, and its ripping off horror movies anyway.

This, more than anything else you've written showcases the levels of epic ignorance you labor under. It's no longer even necessary to rebut your 'arguments,' it's clear to everyone you're a one-man trainwreck of damaged comprehension.

Give it up, Erik. You're a joke.

Quote from: DrewIf anyone has the courage, will and sheer masochistic tenacity to read this thread in it's entirety then I'll buy them a pint. :D

I did and had a good laugh. So next time you are in my neck of the woods you owe me a pint. :crazy:

I can tell you at least from a computer game designer that used to be a rpg designer (who happens to be my brother) that they are two different creatures, though they share some of the same demographics which their player pool is from.

As far as GW I gave up on them years ago, just not my style. There are much better systems and Minis out there, it is just that they do not have the ability to advertise as well as GW these days.

Quote from: 1717 FusilI did and had a good laugh. So next time you are in my neck of the woods you owe me a pint. :crazy:

Hop on the next plane to London. I'll be in the pub around 8pm. ;)

Quote from: DrewIf anyone has the courage, will and sheer masochistic tenacity to read this thread in it's entirety then I'll buy them a pint. :D

 You may owe me TWO pints.
{{{:-)

Between home and work computer browsings  I think I've read the whole thread 2 to 3 times.
Hell, I've even linked it by e-mail to that attractive lady that plays WARHAMMER thats a regular at the store.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeThe best computer game to RPG conversion was Rune, and I still can't find more than 2 people willing to give it a spin. It was a great read though.

If I could find like 4 or 5 copies cheap I'd probably give Rune a shot with my present D&D group.

Quote from: DrewYeah, WFRP was always seen as the poor cousin, which is why they stopped supporting it entirely.

The irony is that whilst the vast majority of 40k and WFB customers from the 80's were replaced with an ever younger, ever changing set of fans WFRP players like myself are still around. It may not have been the most profitable revenue stream, but lifetime custom is something that few businessess with sense disregard.

Yep, that is very true.

As for GW overcharging for their miniatures (the main point of this thread) eventually they are going to price themselves out of certain peoples range and those people will no longer be able to buy (or buy as much).

They used to be able to do it when they had no real competition because they had nothing to worry about, now well they aren't doing too hot because they have competition.

Either they will get it together and figure it out or they will go out of business.  

If you can't compete you die.

Either way life will go on.

Quote from: mhensleyThe really ironic thing about this is the huge success that wotc has had with their D&D minis game.  Rpg players clearly drive the sales- not players of the minis game itself.

Yep.  I think GW has tunnel vision and doesn't see that it has competition now and things can't be "Same old, Same Old"

They will either figure it out or they wont

Quote from: KoltarYou may owe me TWO pints.
{{{:-)

Between home and work computer browsings  I think I've read the whole thread 2 to 3 times.

And you've retained your sanity? I had no idea when posting the OP that it would mutate into this behemoth, and don't think I could ever face going back and reading it all over again. You have my respect, and sympathy.

QuoteHell, I've even linked it by e-mail to that attractive lady that plays WARHAMMER thats a regular at the store.

Then the drinks are on me. :D