Started this on RPGnet but I like you people so I thought I'd put it here too:
So, recently been reading Houses of the Blooded, and I really, really like this book. It is hands down one of the best things I've read in a very long time. The GM advice is priceless, especially about NPCs. It's really got me thinking about how I run games and all that.
However...
Dammit, the tone of the author gets to me, especially when he seems to self-wank/praise himself.
For example, several times in the book he recalls someone calling his games "The JW social meat-grinder!" as though that's an awesome thing to have/be/whatever. That sort of thing really sets me off; in fact, it annoys me. I get that you're a famous designer, and that you GM great games. That's awesome, since you're writing games. But including reference to it in your book? Seems...promotionalist?
There are also several times where games he has run or been in are mentioned. I realize that these are supposed to serve as examples of certain principles, but dangit, the way these read it feels like the author just wants to tell you how awesome he, and by extension his groups of playtesters, are.
In any case, anyone ever read something and feel the same? Love the game, plan to use it (or already did) but had to work hard to ignore the author's tone?
Savage Worlds. Not a bad system, but I hate the "It's FAST! It's FURIOUS! It's FUN!!!!" crap. Not necessary.
Anything written by Ron Edwards. Since he just uses rpg's to promote his crappy philosophy of gaming.
I do try to make the tone of my works fit their sarcy spoofy nature. I completly understand if that puts people off.
Quote from: danbuter;421169Savage Worlds. Not a bad system, but I hate the "It's FAST! It's FURIOUS! It's FUN!!!!" crap. Not necessary.
Anything written by Ron Edwards. Since he just uses rpg's to promote his crappy philosophy of gaming.
That's another one: I kept reading that in SW and thought "let me decide assmunch!"
Never read anything by Edwards. Had a friend buy into him though, and kept telling me that everything by him would "blow my mind."
The only part he probably got right was that it would "blow."
Quote from: danbuter;421169Savage Worlds. Not a bad system, but I hate the "It's FAST! It's FURIOUS! It's FUN!!!!" crap. Not necessary.
Also irked the hell out of me when I first read it, and actually stopped me from actually trying to play/run the game for the better part of a year. Thankfully the Explorer's Edition has a less annoying, more technical tone.
Kevin Siembieda sometimes gets pretty annoying.
Ken St. Andre's tone in T&T - kind of like Savage Worlds' "It's fast, it's furious, it's fun!" oh and also "Screw you Gygax!" got tiresome pretty quickly (one reason why I sold the rules and moved on...)
The pack of furries and weeaboos who wrote Exalted. Man, where to begin...western fantasy tropes are bad, everyone from the 90's onward grew up on anime anyhow...and that's just drawing from the fucking introduction.
Whatever that hack who wrote Amber Diceless' name was, Eric something or the other, yeah that's a load of PUNDIT NO PUT THE GUN DOWN! (I'm kidding - I've never played or read these/them)
Quote from: thedungeondelver;421207Whatever that hack who wrote Amber Diceless' name was, Eric something or the other, yeah that's a load of PUNDIT NO PUT THE GUN DOWN! (I'm kidding - I've never played or read these/them)
(*snarls*)
(*snarls*
Savage Worlds and Burning Wheel both immediately come to mind. I found their intro documents so "toney" that they removed all desire from me to learn any more about the full rules.
I did end up playing Savage Worlds in a con game, though I didn't like it. So for me, it neither plays nor reads well.
The first edition of Star Wars d6. The sourcebook commentary was some of the most "let me buy you a pack of gum and show you how to chew it" nonsense I've ever read.
Characters in Star Wars never invent anything, ever, so none of your characters can. If they do, you're no longer playing Star Wars. Your characters can't blow up the Death Star because Luke already did. Also, none of your characters can have secret fathers or sisters who are evil figures because Lucas got away with it, but you can't. And here's a whole bunch of other shit that we say you can't do. Seriously, fuck you, WEG. Stick to your job, stat up some stormtroopers and stay the fuck out of my way.
Also, Burning Wheel. I like the system just fine, but having the three little devil-mascots with distinct personalities show up in the sidebar and pass on worldly game developer wisdom and have little arguments with each other... not really something I need from a rulebook.
Finally, any game where the rules themselves try to take on some genre patois and talk directly to the reader. The worst example of this I can think of is Deadlands Reloaded. "Consarn it, pardner, when it looks like them rustlers are comin' to take your water, I reckon you ought to roll 1d8 plus yer Wild Die, then consult the Lynchin' Table on page 238..." Graaahhhh.
Heh. The first edition of Savage Worlds got my goat with that whole "Savage Jack," skully-thing leering at me and making snide comments in the sidebars.
Hope they toned that crap down with later versions of the rules (I've only got the Revised rules prior to the SWEX edition so my knowledge of the Savage Stuff is woefully out of date).
Two things really bother me in a game text, or any text: cheesy jokes that aren't funny, and embittered, snarky denigration of (real or imagined) opponents. Snarkiness and cheap shots in general, actually.
The Riddle of Steel did it for me. The tone of "everything you've ever loved about RPGs - and by RPG we mean D&D because that's the only other game we've played - sucks and you should play a real game" really threw me off. It's a shame as the combat mechanics are fun.
I would like to nominate Steve Kenson and his Blue Rose/True 20 game which forced a style of game and world view down your throat rather than letting the GM set his own tone or agenda.
Burning Wheel.
The choice of verbiage/writing style and pretentious attitude of the author overshadow some of the excellent ideas contained within.
I found the devils and opinions in Burning Wheel helpful, at least when it comes to rubber-meets-road for the system.
But if you can't guess by my location, I'm able to just kind of shrug off most attitudes.
Plus, Gygax had a penchant for declaring, at great length, through the DMG and various essays in Dragon, what "good gaming" or a "superior campaign" was, your own experiences at the table be-damned. I don't see many people here bitching about him, although that happened many times elsewhere before his death.
The thing is, Gygax knew his game, and Crane knows his. It's just a matter of cutting through the tone and realizing a lot of the advice has at least some insight into how things should work.
Quote from: Peregrin;421331Plus, Gygax had a penchant for declaring, at great length, through the DMG and various essays in Dragon, what "good gaming" or a "superior campaign" was, your own experiences at the table be-damned. I don't see many people here bitching about him, although that happened many times elsewhere before his death.
Oh, I agree with you there. I couldn't stand anything Gygax himself wrote - wasn't worth the effort. I strongly disliked the 1e AD&D books - I'm a firm Moldvay/Metzner (for basic) and Cook (for 2e) fan. I also loathe the whole "Saint Gygax" phenomenon (along with its sister phenomenon - "O/AD&D was a pure, never-changing game of perfection that everyone loved") that has sprang up in recent years (that conveniently forget how both Gygax and AD&D used to be derided by a significant majority of people in the hobby throughout the mid-80s and 90s).
Still, I don't care for Crane or his style of writing. Having things like calling the dice "traitors" and whatnot was like claws on a chalkboard for me.
Quote from: Danger;421248Hope they toned that crap down with later versions of the rules (I've only got the Revised rules prior to the SWEX edition so my knowledge of the Savage Stuff is woefully out of date).
Thank God, they did.
Quote from: MonkeyWrench;421262The Riddle of Steel did it for me. The tone of "everything you've ever loved about RPGs - and by RPG we mean D&D because that's the only other game we've played - sucks and you should play a real game" really threw me off. It's a shame as the combat mechanics are fun.
It's especially galling since RoS is such a bad game itself.
Not terribly fond of games that create a completely new language for players and GMs to speak during game. A few interesting words or terms are okay, even a page of them can work if the writing is really good, but pages and pages? Bleah.
There was a game in the 90s called 'Immortal' that had a large 'lexicon' of unusual and thesarus-straining terms everyone needed to know to play. It seemed excessive.
Quote from: Insufficient Metal;421240Finally, any game where the rules themselves try to take on some genre patois and talk directly to the reader. The worst example of this I can think of is Deadlands Reloaded. "Consarn it, pardner, when it looks like them rustlers are comin' to take your water, I reckon you ought to roll 1d8 plus yer Wild Die, then consult the Lynchin' Table on page 238..." Graaahhhh.
Oh, and amen to what I. M. says. Save the funny voices for when you are running an NPC and give us nice, clearly-constructed english in the rulebook.
Quote from: IceBlinkLuck;421577There was a game in the 90s called 'Immortal' that had a large 'lexicon' of unusual and thesarus-straining terms everyone needed to know to play. It seemed excessive.
You missed
Aria, then?
Because it was mind-burningly terrible at just this. I cannot do it justice.
Palladium has a bad habbit of printing the author talking directly to the reader. I think it is tacky.
I get annoyed by people who insist on making up clever names for GM.
Quote from: danbuter;421672I get annoyed by people who insist on making up clever names for GM.
I believe you mean "DM". ;)
Yes on Blue Rose and on most Forge games, but to be honest nothing has bothered me more in reading tone than Savage Worlds. Its just fucking unbearable.
RPGPundit
I'm pretty sure Dungeon Master is trademarked, which is why Game Master got started.
Houses of the Blooded was one of the worst I've encountered. Its style and authorial voice was so narcissistic and bloated I kept wondering if it was supposed to be some kind of satire. And, not only is it bloated on a paragraph-to-paragraph level, it's, what, 500 pages long? Just nauseating.
Extra demerits for the "people keep asking me when you're going to write another big game, Wick?" foreword. It might as well have been an Onion article. "We know you've got a beautiful dick, John, and it's awesome how you keep wearing those tight pants and showing off your package, but when are you going to whip it out and show all your adoring fans your great big cock and balls?"
Quote from: Cole;421839"We know you've got a beautiful dick, and it's awesome how you keep wearing those tight pants and showing off your package, but when are you going to whip it out and show all your adoring fans your great big cock and balls?"
Man, I cannot tell you how many times I've heard that exact line.
Seriously.
It's like you are following me around, dude.
p.s. This is an extremely awkward request to fulfill at some times, by the way.
Quote from: Danger;421846Man, I cannot tell you how many times I've heard that exact line.
Seriously.
It's like you are following me around, dude.
p.s. This is an extremely awkward request to fulfill at some times, by the way.
It helps if you "do cocaine."
Quote from: Cole;421839Houses of the Blooded was one of the worst I've encountered. Its style and authorial voice was so narcissistic and bloated I kept wondering if it was supposed to be some kind of satire. And, not only is it bloated on a paragraph-to-paragraph level, it's, what, 500 pages long? Just nauseating.
Extra demerits for the "people keep asking me when you're going to write another big game, Wick?" foreword. It might as well have been an Onion article. "We know you've got a beautiful dick, John, and it's awesome how you keep wearing those tight pants and showing off your package, but when are you going to whip it out and show all your adoring fans your great big cock and balls?"
Amen brother. I read that first bit at the beginning and just thought "Really? EVERYONE is asking you? Gosh, what a big man you are!"
So, I'll be getting rid of the book. Sad because I spent 45 euro on it. Could have bought something else I would have at least enjoyed reading, if not playing. Can't do either with HotB.
Quote from: RPGPundit;421831Yes on Blue Rose and on most Forge games, but to be honest nothing has bothered me more in reading tone than Savage Worlds. Its just fucking unbearable.
RPGPundit
I had this same problem with the Revised Edition. But the Explorer Edition reads a lot better. It actually surprised me.
I hate it when the author denigrates some other game, goes on about how his game 'fixes' it or is somehow superior... even with games I like, talking about games I don't like... I don't like that shit.
I guess I'd have to add pretty much every WW book ever in terms of godawful tone. Its pretentiousness dripping off every page.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;421938I guess I'd have to add pretty much every WW book ever in terms of godawful tone. Its pretentiousness dripping off every page.
RPGPundit
Let us not forget the lousy pieces of genre fiction, with which the rulebooks are laced, like bad acid.
Another vote for Burning Wheel. Crane's self-congratulation knows no bounds, and certainly not the bounds of good taste.
What also irks me are when the author inserts (imaginary) examples of play and adds, again, congratulatory adjectives to the DM and players:
Then Susie adds [the new mechanic just discussed] to the game. The other players are very excited and instantly like the idea.
Ken Hite's very prone to this.
Quote from: Windjammer;421966What also irks me are when the author inserts (imaginary) examples of play and adds, again, congratulatory adjectives to the DM and players:
Then Susie adds [the new mechanic just discussed] to the game. The other players are very excited and instantly like the idea.
Ken Hite's very prone to this.
Yes, that's annoying. I had not consciously associated it with Hite, but, it's now a "once seen it cannot be unseen" thing.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;421582You missed Aria, then?
Because it was mind-burningly terrible at just this. I cannot do it justice.
Heh, actually no I didn't. Just blotted it out of my memory...until now. Thanks Levi!
Quote from: jgants;421337Oh, I agree with you there. I couldn't stand anything Gygax himself wrote - wasn't worth the effort. I strongly disliked the 1e AD&D books - I'm a firm Moldvay/Metzner (for basic) and Cook (for 2e) fan. I also loathe the whole "Saint Gygax" phenomenon (along with its sister phenomenon - "O/AD&D was a pure, never-changing game of perfection that everyone loved") that has sprang up in recent years (that conveniently forget how both Gygax and AD&D used to be derided by a significant majority of people in the hobby throughout the mid-80s and 90s).
Yeah. Remember back in the day, when Gygax wrote bizarre articles about how if you were playing Traveler you were
stealing from him? Or his tirade in the AD&D DMG about how no player would ever
want to play a non-human for any reason other than power gaming shenanigans?
The guy was an
asshole. He calmed down eventually, and near the end he and Arneson seemed to make peace with each other and the fact that D&D had moved on. But back in the 70s and 80s, he was a major tool. It drove me to 3rd party D&D variants like RuneQuest and Warlock right quick.
QuoteStill, I don't care for Crane or his style of writing. Having things like calling the dice "traitors" and whatnot was like claws on a chalkboard for me.
It worked very well in Mouseguard. In Burning Wheel it just comes off like a flaming bag of dog poop. Sometimes writers mature, other times they just find a genre that is more suited to their style.
-Frank
EGG's essays from the early 80s are an excellent cautionary tale on how letting success go to your head can mess with your sense of judgement. They are also a treasure trove of logical fallacies and arguments resting on a false "game designer authority".
Warlock was horrible, though. One of the first attempts to "fix D&D" by replacing the mechanics that worked with mechanics that didn't. In "rationalising" D&D, Warlock turns it into something an unimaginative tech student with a slide rule up his ass might come up with. Lots of l'art-pour-l'art complexity, zero creativity. I own an early (and apparently very rare/unique (http://www.afterglow2.com/Product/Balboa.htm)) manuscript version I won on an eBay auction, and apart from the historical curio/collector value, it is basically worthless. Another example of the hobby gone wrong - just a different one.
Quote from: RPGPundit;421831Yes on Blue Rose and on most Forge games, but to be honest nothing has bothered me more in reading tone than Savage Worlds. Its just fucking unbearable.
RPGPundit
The SWEX did away with that, IIRC.
I was also bothered by Savage Worlds. I never liked that little clown graphic.
Luke Crane's self-congratulatory tone in BW bothered me, but Blake Mobley's tone in Metascape never did. It was certainly worse. Maybe it stepped over the line into self-parody, intentional or not. I don't know. Maybe he seemed a little more genuine.
Quote from: Phantom Black;422194The SWEX did away with that, IIRC.
Too little, too late.
RPGPundit
The free version of Barbarians of Lemuria. The game itself didn't really appeal to me. But the authors tone down right cheesed me off. This whole 'if you want a backpack full of equipment, this game isn't for you' attitude was openly insulting to the reader.
For 'old school' charm I would pick Mazes & Minotaurs.
Quote from: Tetsubo;422716The free version of Barbarians of Lemuria. The game itself didn't really appeal to me. But the authors tone down right cheesed me off. This whole 'if you want a backpack full of equipment, this game isn't for you' attitude was openly insulting to the reader.
Simon W's kind of a whiny bitch. I called his game a "heartbreaker" and he said that I wasn't qualified to make that judgment because I'd only read the free version of his game, and not the paid update to it.