I've been playing way too much GTA lately, and that's got me sort of in a criminal mood. Thing is, GTA outside the mission stuff has a rather unfortunately lack of really cool crime. You can pretty much just steal cars and shoot people for their wallets.
I've always dug the whole "heist" film genre, stuff like Ocean's Eleven or the Italian Job or, well, Heist.
Bunch of really smart crooks plan a big theft or something, and then we watch the plan come together, or fall apart.
I can't really think of any RPGs that really go after this particular subject specifically, which is surprising given how almost diabolical the average RPG group can really be in the "convoluted plans" department.
The closest I can think of is some of the stuff that goes after the spy genre, like N&SS or Spycraft.
Any thoughts?
What about Shadowrun? After all, the core story are criminals for hire who do cat burglary stuff in high-tech dungeons.
Violence (TM), although a parody, is another example for such a game.
I think that Dog Town (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=3793) by Cold Blooded Games might be the kind of think you're talking about. Very much influenced by GTA and various gangster/heist/crime movies.
Cheers
Malcolm
You might look into Haven city of violence. Its criminally based game. I myself ran a heist game using D6.
Vincent Baker had some sort of a caper game on his website (http://www.lumphley.com) at one time, though I didn't see it on a quit flipthrough. I believe it was called Chalk Outlines, and maybe if you emailed him Vincent could send you a copy. There was another Forgey type design in a similar vein, meant to simulate Guy Ritchie films like Lock, Stock, and 2 Smoking Barrels, but I can't quite remember the name. Maybe it was called Collision or somesuch? Also I vaguely recall a little internet freebie called Reservoir Cats.
If S.John Ross ever releases Fly From Evil (http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/fly.htm), it could come close to fitting the bill. It's specific to an earlier era, though.
!i!
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaIf S.John Ross ever releases Fly From Evil (http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/fly.htm), it could come close to fitting the bill. It's specific to an earlier era, though.
!i!
S John will never release FFE! He'll order it burned when he's on his deathbed. Trust me, Ian! That way lies only pain and heartache.
-clash
Er...is there something I've missed here?
!i!
Not exactly Ocean's 11, but ye olde Thieves' Guild series is supposed to be great for fantasy heists.
http://www.diffworlds.com/gamelords_thieves_guild.htm
IIRC word in the street is that the rules are mediocre but the modules shine.
Dog Town is a really cool game.
I also hear that someone made an outstanding GTA: Vice City-like RPG. I think there's even a review for it on this site. . .
Pete
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaEr...is there something I've missed here?
!i!
I've been waiting for FFE for many, many years... :D
-clash
Well, yeah. You and me both. Its "playtest" stage has gone on a few years too long now. I respect S John's committment to putting out a quality product (which he does, in spades), but what's the hold-up at this point?
!i!
There's Steal: Modern Crime Roleplay Game, which is a free download here (http://www.daftideasinc.esmartbiz.com/roleplay.htm). It's a British-based thing, so more Snatch than GTA.
The original James Bond RPG could cover a Mission Impossible / Ocean's 11 campaign easily.
At the risk of sounding my own brass instrument, I wrote a "not Mission: Impossible" RPG ages and ages ago, which you can get in PDF from http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/tmcg/impossiblemissions.pdf. The system's rudimentary, but you might like the GM's section.
Improbably, it has also been translated into Italian.
edit: The Italian version is available at http://www.chimerae.it/prodotti.CHN2.html
Quote from: CaudexAt the risk of sounding my own brass instrument, I wrote a "not Mission: Impossible" RPG ages and ages ago, which you can get in PDF from http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/tmcg/impossiblemissions.pdf. The system's rudimentary, but you might like the GM's section.
Improbably, it has also been translated into Italian.
edit: The Italian version is available at http://www.chimerae.it/prodotti.CHN2.html
Oddly, I've been considering trying to learn Italian recently, and had even downlaoded some software to do so which I stupidly deleted.
so your post served to remind me of my mistake there. ;)
Quote from: JimBobOzThere's Steal: Modern Crime Roleplay Game, which is a free download here (http://www.daftideasinc.esmartbiz.com/roleplay.htm). It's a British-based thing, so more Snatch than GTA.
I'm sold, anything that resembles Snatch has to be good.
You need to check out Wilderness of Mirrors (http://wickedthought.livejournal.com/472689.html) by John Wick. You can get it from him personally for $5. It's meant to be a spy game where the players make up elaborate plans and execute them. It would be very easy to use it for Ocean's 11 or Heist (meaning that great BBC/AMC show about grifters in London).
Violence: the RPG - if it is still around is a freebie. Of course, the criminal conveyed in Violence might not be the kind of criminal you want to play. In fact, I don't know if anyone would to play that kind of criminal. It emulates the kind of GTA play you get when you are really bored and go around doing crappy things just to pass the time.
Steal is probably the closest thing to what you're looking for. Wilderness of Mirrors might work, though it's not about criminals by default. Dog Town has excellent source material, though its system is effectively a generic device that doesn't really model the source material any better than a system such as GURPS or Hero would.
Speaking of grifters, I can't believe the story games people haven't yet tried to do a Jim Thompson RPG. The Grifters, Pop.1280, The Getaway (which is even better than the movie)... those just beg for a treatment.
Quote from: Pierce InverarityNot exactly Ocean's 11, but ye olde Thieves' Guild series is supposed to be great for fantasy heists.
http://www.diffworlds.com/gamelords_thieves_guild.htm
IIRC word in the street is that the rules are mediocre but the modules shine.
I was about to recommend Gamelords'
Thieves' Guild stuff myself (along with their
Free City of Haven).
:cool:
The rules are indeed rather mediocre (essentially heavily and unnecessarily tweaked AD&D 1e), but the setting is pretty cool (in a gonzo D&D kinda way).
You're giving me ideas here... that stuff on the gamelords site is dead cheap... and I haven't run a fantasy Cloak & Dagger in ages.
Here we have Slang!, which is a game that goes more after a Pulp Fiction feeling. It's published by Nosolorol, and it's pretty good. Unfortunately, only in Spanish.
Quote from: UmaSamaI'm sold, anything that resembles Snatch has to be good.
I've always thought so :D
Regards,
David R
Quote from: David RI've always thought so :D
Regards,
David R
Naughty boy! :D
-clash
There's also:
- Ghost Dog (Guardians of Order)
- Mob Justice (Contested Grounds Studios)
- Crime and Punishment (Moyra Turkington)
Quote from: AnemoneThere's also:
- Ghost Dog (Guardians of Order)
- Mob Justice (Contested Grounds Studios)
- Crime and Punishment (Moyra Turkington)
I forgot about Ghost Dog. The focus is a little too narrow for an RPG IMO, but if you liked the movie, you'll like the read. I did.
Pete
If you want to play a criminal that got caught, there's always Designer X's "prison rape race war" game, 4 Walls and a Funeral.
http://www.memento-mori.com/other/games/fourwalls.pdf
There's the old FGU game Gangster, which is about playing a mobster. Goes from 1920s to "today."
"Today" being the early 80s.
Noble Knight has a couple of copies.
-Thornhammer
Quote from: JohnnyWannabeViolence: the RPG - if it is still around is a freebie. Of course, the criminal conveyed in Violence might not be the kind of criminal you want to play. In fact, I don't know if anyone would to play that kind of criminal. It emulates the kind of GTA play you get when you are really bored and go around doing crappy things just to pass the time.
Yeah I think if any game could really do it I think Violence could.
And as you say, it's a free download
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaIf S.John Ross ever releases Fly From Evil (http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/fly.htm), it could come close to fitting the bill. It's specific to an earlier era, though.
!i!
He has been talking about this for a couple of years. I am interested in Fly From Evil but I am begining to think that this is vaporware
Violence isn't a game. Violence is a bitter old man's mocking joke at the expense of a playstyle he doesn't like.
Most of the humor of the game is in spite of it's author rather than because of him, and the mechanics are barely even playable.
Quote from: J ArcaneViolence isn't a game. Violence is a bitter old man's mocking joke at the expense of a playstyle he doesn't like.
Most of the humor of the game is in spite of it's author rather than because of him, and the mechanics are barely even playable.
All I can say J Arcane as I brought the subject of Violence up and people have told me they have played it and it does in fact work.
I haven't tried it personally. I am just saying.
Quote from: J ArcaneViolence isn't a game. Violence is a bitter old man's mocking joke at the expense of a playstyle he doesn't like.
That may be true. But, if someone wants to play table top GTA-style games, then Violence fits the bill.
Quote from: JohnnyWannabeThat may be true. But, if someone wants to play table top GTA-style games, then Violence fits the bill.
Which isn't what I asked for in the original post. I specifically stated I was disappointed with the amount of actual interesting crime in the real GTA games. Have you actually played them? Cause 90% of the crap in Violence has nothing to do with anything that appears in those games.
Violence is Greg Costikyan making fun of gamers, and nothing more, by twisting the dungeon crawl into a modern setting and then pointing and laughing at the result, branding gamers as a bunch of sociopaths.
It has all the relevance of a Jack Thompson rant about GTA.
Quote from: J ArcaneHave you actually played them?
Yes, I've played them. And while the story lines (i.e. the real missions and what not) are interesting enough, it's the stuff that you can do outside of the storylines that make the GTA series real fun for me. That's the joy with all sand box games. You can do whatever the hell you want.
Quote from: JohnnyWannabeYes, I've played them. And while the story lines (i.e. the real missions and what not) are interesting enough, it's the stuff that you can do outside of the storylines that make the GTA series real fun for me. That's the joy with all sand box games. You can do whatever the hell you want.
I agree that the outside the story stuff is where the fun is at. In fact it's the only way I play. I have San Andreas on my computer, and the first thing I did with it was download someone elses completed save, so I could jsut run aroudn the world going crazy.
Mostly though, I take really fast cars and jump them off of ramps, or I get in my helicopter and do things like diving into an ocean from thousands of feet high.
Because despite what Jack Thompson and the media would like to think, the sandbox element of the game supports very little crime, and what it does support is largely uninteresting.
there's not the detail of, say, The Godfather game, where you can actually extort shop keepers for "protection", or knock over rival gang's gambling rackets, and generally get in turf wars with the other mobs. San Andreas had a limited turf war system, but it pretty much just involved standing in one place and trying to kill X number of people before a timer ran out.
Have you checked out Wyrd is Bond? It's GTA:San Andreas meets...Hellblazer. I have it but haven't gotten a chance to play it yet.
Being a black male in Chicago, with a fair amount of family members in gangs, I found it's take on gang culture kind of interesting to say the least. It's a simple system, though it's more freeform than hard rules. Eh, check it out and see what you think.
Quote from: J ArcaneI agree that the outside the story stuff is where the fun is at. In fact it's the only way I play. I have San Andreas on my computer, and the first thing I did with it was download someone elses completed save, so I could jsut run aroudn the world going crazy.
Mostly though, I take really fast cars and jump them off of ramps, or I get in my helicopter and do things like diving into an ocean from thousands of feet high.
Do you think someone actually creating a licensed GTA game would work? I am just curious if you think there is enough interest for a game like that to work.
Quote from: Blue DevilDo you think someone actually creating a licensed GTA game would work? I am just curious if you think there is enough interest for a game like that to work.
Well, I know of at least one developer who's taken to ripping off Rockstar's visual style with great gusto for their d20 shovelware. We had a thread about their abortion supplement here some time back . . .
Quote from: Ghost_FaceBeing a black male in Chicago, with a fair amount of family members in gangs, I found it's take on gang culture kind of interesting to say the least.
Could you expand on what it is you found interesting? As someone who grew up in rural England (an area bereft of gangs of anything other than cabbages and drunk farmers), I know next to nothing about that sort of thing. (I'm assuming that's a good interesting rather than a bad interesting.)
Oh hey, I just remembered -- if you can find a copy, GoO's Ghost Dog RPG (mentioned earlier) has lots of info on things like how racketeering/protection, different ways to launder money and all that kind of gangstery stuff work on a day-to-day basis. That could be very useful to you, as most books on gang/organised crime tend to skim over that kind of thing.
It's not a bad game all in all, actually. Tri-Stat, IIRC. But the gangster work life bits are the best part.
Quote from: CaudexOh hey, I just remembered -- if you can find a copy, GoO's Ghost Dog RPG has lots of info on things like how racketeering/protection, different ways to launder money and all that kind of gangstery stuff work on a day-to-day basis. That could be very useful to you, as most books on gang/organised crime tend to skim over that kind of thing.
It's not a bad game all in all, actually. Tri-Stat, IIRC.
I always wanted to check that one out. I've never even seen the movie, the concept just sounded intriguing at the time.
Quote from: J ArcaneI always wanted to check that one out. I've never even seen the movie, the concept just sounded intriguing at the time.
I liked the film a lot, but it's not for everyone. Well, you know... Jim Jarmusch.
No idea where you'd find the game these days.
Quote from: CaudexI liked the film a lot, but it's not for everyone. Well, you know... Jim Jarmusch.
No idea where you'd find the game these days.
Pity I would really liked to have seen what the game was about. I don't suppose there's a
Deadman adaptation ? Now I'd pay good money to read maybe not play that game :)
Regards,
David R
Quote from: CaudexCould you expand on what it is you found interesting? As someone who grew up in rural England (an area bereft of gangs of anything other than cabbages and drunk farmers), I know next to nothing about that sort of thing. (I'm assuming that's a good interesting rather than a bad interesting.)
Yeah, I'd appreciate clarification too. I read "interesting" as meaning "hilariously inaccurate", but maybe I just assume everyone else is as habitually sarcastic as I am.
Quote from: J ArcaneWell, I know of at least one developer who's taken to ripping off Rockstar's visual style with great gusto for their d20 shovelware. We had a thread about their abortion supplement here some time back . . .
I remember hearing about that Abortion supplement, reading about it and saying "This is in bad taste".
Some topics shouldn't be touched because they are in bad taste. this is one of them. Rohowa is yet another example
Quote from: Blue DevilSome topics shouldn't be touched because they are in bad taste. this is one of them.
Actually, some topics shouldn't be touched, not because they're in poor taste, but because they're not grounds for amusement or entertainment.
!i!
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaActually, some topics shouldn't be touched, not because they're in poor taste, but because they're not grounds for amusement or entertainment.
!i!
Said better then I could have ever.
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaActually, some topics shouldn't be touched, not because they're in poor taste, but because they're not grounds for amusement or entertainment.
You know, when you put it like that I can't think of a single topic that can't be or hasn't been used for amusement or entertainment.
Quote from: droogYou know, when you put it like that I can't think of a single topic that can't be or hasn't been used for amusement or entertainment.
That's both true and deplorable. I know I'm going to have to struggle hard to steer clear of the flame wars that are going to erupt around a certain upcoming RPG that "addresses" the holocaust.
Merely typing this makes me want to throw up on the table, actually. That, or call the Wiesenthal Center.
Which one's that?
Quote from: Blue DevilI remember hearing about that Abortion supplement, reading about it and saying "This is in bad taste".
In Dogma, Jay and Silent Bob were hanging out at an abortion clinic looking to pick up chicks who were "easy."
I have a pretty thick skin. Outside of child pornography and modern day sex slave trafficking, not much ruffles my feathers. The world is what it is, whether we like it or not.
I think the main problem with supplements like Abortion is that people give it so much face time. Who the hell would have ever heard of Rahowa if people hadn't been bitching about it or actually _reviewing_ it? All a 30-page "I hate Rahowa" thread/flame war does is shine the light on a white supremacist RPG, letting those who would be interested in running a white supremacist RPG know that there is a game out there just for them. It just seems counterproductive to rant and rave on public forums---like they say, any publicity is good publicity.
Just watch what happens when that "holocaust" game comes out. There will be tons of people chiming in with their outrage, not realizing that 1. the designers already knew there would be this type of outrage (were in fact banking on it) and 2. all they're doing is generating more buzz for the game when the thread stays at the top of the page for months. If you must vent, do it in a private email to the designers.
Pete
Quote from: pspahnWho the hell would have ever heard of Rahowa if people hadn't been bitching about it or actually _reviewing_ it? All a 30-page "I hate Rahowa" thread/flame war does is shine the light on a white supremacist RPG, letting those who would be interested in running a white supremacist RPG know that there is a game out there just for them. It just seems counterproductive to rant and rave on public forums---like they say, any publicity is good publicity.
That is true. If I remember correctly the rules didnt even work anyhow. The good news is I went to the official page and it is gone. Apparently Rahowa was laughed off the internet.
Quote from: pspahnJust watch what happens when that "holocaust" game comes out. There will be tons of people chiming in with their outrage, not realizing that 1. the designers already knew there would be this type of outrage (were in fact banking on it) and 2. all they're doing is generating more buzz for the game when the thread stays at the top of the page for months. If you must vent, do it in a private email to the designers.
Pete
I guess this is going to prove your point. I wasn't aware of this game coming out.
Quote from: Blue DevilI guess this is going to prove your point. I wasn't aware of this game coming out.
Which means I just did exactly what I was telling everyone not to. Lousy soapboax. :)
Pete
Quote from: droogYou know, when you put it like that I can't think of a single topic that can't be or hasn't been used for amusement or entertainment.
Yeah. Hmm. It seemed like a relevant point to make at the time, but reading it now, I agree more with Blue Devil's statement. As the old Japanese proverb goes, "Every worm to his taste; some prefer nettles."
!i!
Quote from: droogWhich one's that?
Bearing Pete's admonishment in mind, I don't want to give it screen time before it's even out.
On a different note, it's great to see how this Abortion thing has completely tanked, publicity-wise. There was one long thread on rpg.net, and then... fizzle.
Quote from: Pierce InverarityOn a different note, it's great to see how this Abortion thing has completely tanked, publicity-wise. There was one long thread on rpg.net, and then... fizzle.
Yup. But, I wonder how much of that is due to its distastefulness and how much is due to the fact that no one can envision what the point of playing an Abortion RPG would be. Modern day setting - no magic - no weird beasties - no cool powers. Unless it's a game about destroying the anti-Christ before he's born, I'd never get anyone to play it---and even then it would be a stretch. Hell, it's hard enough pitching 1980s vice cops. :)
Pete
Quote from: pspahnWhich means I just did exactly what I was telling everyone not to. Lousy soapboax. :)
Pete
[Homer Simpson]Stupid Soapbox[/Homer Simpson]
:D
Quote from: pspahnI'd never get anyone to play it---and even then it would be a stretch. Hell, it's hard enough pitching 1980s vice cops. :)
Pete
Nice pitch for that game. Is PIG games giving you a cut of books sold :)
Quote from: Blue DevilNice pitch for that game. Is PIG games giving you a cut of books sold :)
Heh, it's actually my game so I get all the cut. :)
Pete
Quote from: pspahnHeh, it's actually my game so I get all the cut. :)
Pete
Ah Ok, I see.
Quote from: JimBobOzThere's Steal: Modern Crime Roleplay Game, which is a free download here (http://www.daftideasinc.esmartbiz.com/roleplay.htm). It's a British-based thing, so more Snatch than GTA.
Dude, that's pretty neat. Thanks for posting a link to this. I will be looking this over.
Quote from: Serious PaulDude, that's pretty neat. Thanks for posting a link to this. I will be looking this over.
Interesting. If it is improved on it could be a really good game.
Quote from: Blue DevilInteresting. If it is improved on it could be a really good game.
I'll second that. As is, there's just enough information to run a game, provided noone gets too specific with the details. The description of UK player "gangs" seems a bit more like a combination of "gangs" and "crews" in the U.S. in that they seem to be territorial, but their members have specialized areas of expertise and they don't commit the random and semi-random acts of violence that are associated with American street gangs. Lots of interesting advice on running a specifcially London-based crime game in there.
One thing I've never been able to wrap my head around, though:
"Regular police in the UK are not armed."
That's just mindboggling to me. Can you imagine police officers in L.A. or New York having to call in S.W.A.T. every time a criminal was suspected of being armed?
Pete
Regular criminals in the UK don't tend to be armed either. The penalties for armed assault, and especially gun crime, are much, much more severe than the US.
That was the whole point of the bit with the guy's revolver in Snatch.
Yeah, I'll be reading through that piece and taking some ideas I like from it.
Quote from: J ArcaneRegular criminals in the UK don't tend to be armed either. The penalties for armed assault, and especially gun crime, are much, much more severe than the US.
Yeah, I know this. I actually ran a 28 Days Later-esque game that started in London, and the players weren't too happy about that. :) It's still hard to wrap your head around, though, when you live in a state where every household (myself included) owns at least one handgun and at least one rifle/shotgun. More importantly, how does that affect the mindset of the average criminal? In America, life is cheap when you have 12-year-olds shooting classmates over an argument or teenagers killing people as part of a gang initiation. Over here, the cops are outnumbered and often outgunned, but in the UK they seem to only be outnumbered. I think that would take a lot of getting used to from a gaming aspect. I'm not saying the UK is some sort of blissful Utopia, but I would assume that you can't just blow someone away over there and then expect the murder to be buried beneath a ton of other unsolved shootings and violent crimes.
Pete
Quote from: pspahnI'll second that. As is, there's just enough information to run a game, provided noone gets too specific with the details. The description of UK player "gangs" seems a bit more like a combination of "gangs" and "crews" in the U.S. in that they seem to be territorial, but their members have specialized areas of expertise and they don't commit the random and semi-random acts of violence that are associated with American street gangs. Lots of interesting advice on running a specifcially London-based crime game in there.
Pete
Yeah, there is a lot of good information.
What would be a good system to convert the game to that would be easy to use and fit the genre?
Quote from: CaudexCould you expand on what it is you found interesting? As someone who grew up in rural England (an area bereft of gangs of anything other than cabbages and drunk farmers), I know next to nothing about that sort of thing. (I'm assuming that's a good interesting rather than a bad interesting.)
It was a "good" interesting as far as west coast and Chicago gangs go. My only criticism is that it's very general, and while it get's alot of things right...there's alot of specific things that get no mention. Like having to know "Lit" in a gang or the "definitions"(maybe alegorical content would be a better term) behind the symbols used in grafitti.
Another criticism would be terms used, they're very generic and kind of funny in my eyes...but only because i know things like what the game calls "punks" in a street gang are, in Chicago called torpedoes...basically a bunch of dumb, young, lowest level gang members who are used as muscle en masse.
In the end it does a good job as a broad overview...and doesn't really "glorify being in a gang. This isn't a "street guide to actual survival" and there are so many slight differences depending on what gang one is talking about, I understand why they had to go this route.
Quote from: Blue DevilWhat would be a good system to convert the game to that would be easy to use and fit the genre?
I think that would really depend on what you're trying to emulate---down and dirty crime or over-the-top Snatch and Lock, Stock with the great dialogue, the Pikers, and the Russian who couldn't be killed to name a few. :) There are really no systems out there that I can think of that would offer a Ritchie/Tarantino-type experience. I think a lot of making it work would fall on the GM's shoulders (and the players' to some degree), which means I'd want a very rules light system, something I'd rarely (if ever) need to reference during play. Right now on that front I'm partial to WEG's d6 System (d6 dice pool), PIG's genreDiversion i (2d6 roll under stat + skill), PIG's Active Exploits (diceless/points allocation), and perhaps Eden's Unisystem.
The task resolution for all of these systems is pretty transparent in that you know what you need to roll for success almost immediately, which helps the system fade into the background and allows the GM and the players to concentrate more on what is happening in the setting. You _could_ run it with d20 Modern (it definitely handles the over-the-top action), but I think the more you have to look up a feat or particular rule you lose some of the character-driven feel that Snatch presents---so a lot of it would depend on how well you know the system. It's hard for me to connect AoO and LoS with the feel of a Guy Ritchie movie. Others may find it simpler, though.
Pete