Wasn't sure what to call this thread. Probably die an ignoble death no matter what, but here it is.

I was a gamer geek growing up. From the tender ages of childhood I gamed, thougth about gaming or wished i was gaming. My favorite gifts were new game books, and for a time I avidly sought out new and exciting systems to drool over.

Like most people, I grew up, got a job, had other exciting things happen. I remained, for years, a gamer true.

I was in my mid-twenties when I had a crisis of gaming. I fell in with a bad crowd, the gaming sucked, the time I spent was often wishing I was actually gaming with these people, the time gaming was spent wishing there were other gamers to game with.  In other words, it was bad. I fell out of gaming, sold my books and decided I was done, I had outgrown them, just as I had comic books.  For two years I had a 'real' social life, I dated and partied and generally did fun things that non-gamers do. I had more time and money, and all things being equal, I had more fun.

Then I moved.  After a few months of relative boredom, I sought out and linked up with, the local gamers once more.  It was slow going at first, but eventually i came to haunt the local game store once more.  Oddly enough, my non-gaming social life declined.

I moved again. Gaming once more became a distant memory, though this time I still had all my books, rather than just a few momentos.  I have gone through much smaller cycles of 'gaming/not-gaming' than I used to, found a rough balance of 'real life' and 'gaming'.

Which brings me to the point of all this.

I don't know if its age or perspective but; As I loiter online or in the game stores (less often than in ages past) I realized that most gamers are completely unaware of how silly they sound to others.  

I am reluctant to talk about what my 'character' has done, or what characters have done in the past. Why? Because half the time when I read a poster talking about 'their character' I get the oddest sensation of telepathy, of ESP. Like I can almost see the poster talking, read their minds.  It's not usually pretty. What used to be limited to just reflexive wincing at 'my 100th level half dragon' stories is now found in 99% of most character stories I hear.  

When I hear GM's... or players... talk about their houserules I get the same disconnect, like 'does this guy not realize that a: it's a game, and b: that what doesn't make sense to him reflects only his own prejudice?  There is a reason I've started to become a stickler for playing RAW, and it's not that I think the writers are smarter than me.  It's all about communication and different points of view.

Maybe I'd feel different if I had one long running group that I'd played with, or one 'house system' I've had to introduce a handful of players too. But I've gamed with hundreds of people, some only a handful of times, others for years. I've played dozens of systems, and own a double dozen more.

Am I a gamer? well, duh, I post here.  But I find that the older I get the less interested I am in slapping that label across my chest in bold letters. Gaming is something I do, not who I am.  A part of it is my fellow gamers, from the catpissmen to the run of the mill geeks, I don't want to identify myself that way.  Maybe it's the 'label' I wear every day at work, maybe it's the hobbies I have that DON"T label me. I like to ski, but no one I know says I'm a 'skiier', why should they about gaming?

Where does that put me? Where does that leave me? What was the point of all this then?

I don't know. What I do know is that I don't want to hear about how 'you' dual weild a pistol and a sword, or how rule X doesn't reflect reality in some way, or how proud you are to be a geek. I don't want to hear a litany of your favorite character's names.  What I want to know is if you want to sit at my table for a game, any game because I don't have the time to juggle systems around elitism. I want to know if you are cool with not playing tonight so we can all go get Happy Teriyaki and watch the last disc of Firefly instead (cue this last weekend...).  I want to know if I can trust you to come to my house and not steal my books, and if you will actually show when you said you would.

I look around my current table and I see two people who almost never gamed before, and wouldn't even think to call themselves 'gamers'. I see two people who are only vaguely aware that D&D isn't the 'only game' and one person who identifies herself as a gamer, but only part of the time.  I'm happier with this crowd than i think I would be with a table full of dedicated, hard core gamers like I used to think I was. I've had that table. It sucked. Several times.

There is no point. There is only Fun and Not-Fun.  I'm tired of the Not-Fun.

Interesting analysis.  I love reading peoples self revelations and analysis.  I don’t think there is anything goofy about wondering what the hell life is about (even as it relates to your RPG hobby).  Here are some random thoughts in response to your thread.

I label myself as a gamer when I’m around other gamers, or looking for other gamers.  When I’m going through other things I’m a normal guy.  I don’t think you have to chose to label yourself one way or the other all the time.  And you should always feel free to come up with your own definition of "gamer".

I also went through other phases where I didn’t game much, and did a lot of other social activities.  I guess I had some good times and a lot of adventures…but I’m a little older now, and enjoy the more relaxed nature of the RPG hobby.  Not only that, but I get to hang out with people who I have a lot more in common with than when I was doing all those other things…and even now, I can do “normal” things with those guys, like go to football games, take the wives out to eat, and have parties where we don’t talk about gaming at all.

The other day I was describing a D&D encounter online, and realized that it was so silly, and still sounded the same as when I excitedly described a D&D encounter when I was 12 (I’m 38 now)…but you know what, it was fun, and I was among other gamers at the time, so who cares…right?

I've been gaming since '81, but until I moved to the US 10 years ago I didn't know what a "gamer" is. I didn't know what that entailed, and I still don't think it has to entail anything. There simply is no correlation between playing RPGs and giving up your social life. It's a choice, not a necessity. All the misery seems to arise from believing it's the latter, and then hating the scene for feeling trapped by it.

I'm not sure what really prompted it. The closest thing was stumbling upon 'yet another' post by someone on another forum where they related things 'they' had done, with character names tacked on for good measure.

Or the posts on another forum where there is a meme of 'in my take on setting'...

like I care what is or is not true for your take. I don't game with you. Then, and only then, will I care.

Now, a good idea is a good idea, but the presentation does matter.

If you, Grubman, have a good idea or did something you think is cool, tell me what you think/did.

You, Grubman, are not the PC 'Mr. fancypants', and when you GM 'Grub's World' it is no more real than Mr. fancypants is.  Really its the people who talk about their characters as if they ARE themselves that set me off more than the GM's who talk like thier world is 'real'.  

Of course, I could just be tired and grouchy and in need of some spleen letting.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityI've been gaming since '81, but until I moved to the US 10 years ago I didn't know what a "gamer" is. I didn't know what that entailed, and I still don't think it has to entail anything. There simply is no correlation between playing RPGs and giving up your social life. It's a choice, not a necessity. All the misery seems to arise from believing it's the latter, and then hating the scene for feeling trapped by it.

In my case, I think it comes from starting so early and getting into it so totally.  Until I gave it up in disgust that one time I was at a serious loss for what to do with my free time when I wasn't doing 'game stuff' and hanging out with my 'gamer buddies'... most of whom I couldn't stand outside of the fact we all gamed.  I imagine a similar adjustment period is had by people who were obsessive about anything as a teenager and had to give it up as an adult, like sports guys who don't go on to pro ball, or guys who form bands but find they will never get a label to sign them. It's okay to still play for fun, but eventually you have to look for a life outside that interest, a job and freinds who don't necessarily think 'X' is all there is to life.  Once I got past that I stopped thinking I was 'trapped' by gaming.

Quote from: SpikeYou, Grubman, are not the PC 'Mr. fancypants', and when you GM 'Grub's World' it is no more real than Mr. fancypants is.  Really its the people who talk about their characters as if they ARE themselves that set me off more than the GM's who talk like thier world is 'real'.

Well, I guess some people just get into it more than others, some take it more seriously, and some (unfortunates) have nothing else better going on in their "real" life.  Either way I don't begrudge them their enthusiasm.

Quote from: Spikeand hanging out with my 'gamer buddies'... most of whom I couldn't stand outside of the fact we all gamed.

and there is a problem that would turn anyone sour.

Quote from: SpikeOf course, I could just be tired and grouchy and in need of some spleen letting.

I hope that's a little bit of it. Gaming has been a big factor in life too, ever since I was 4 years old. I'm not even kidding, my first game of D&D was when I was a precocious 4. And while time has passed, and I am now much older, one of the things that has kept gaming close to my heart, is how they can capture the childlike moments of fun, daydream and make believe that often diminishes with age. I guess I don't really relate the fun stories of my games to others except in the most general terms, but even then I remember the moment and the excitement, how we all shared in it, and that makes me happy.

And sure it's a big world out there and are lots of other things to do, but when it comes to games, I've always chosen them, because they're fun to me, and not because I feel they've shaped me so much that I have to in order to preserve an identity I have.

Quote from: JamesVone of the things that has kept gaming close to my heart, is how they can capture the childlike moments of fun, daydream and make believe that often diminishes with age.

Only if you let it!  I refuse to grow up and act mature!  (unless there is sex involved!)

Ding, Winner! Grubman nailed it.

Go find other people... in this internet age of ever accelelating globalized warming* you *can* find the right guys--you can effectively pre-screen them online. Is X a messageboard jerk? Don't get in touch. You can even start your own network, a la Troupe Berkeley or that thing Mechante Anemone has going on in the Seattle(?) area.

*Sorry, it was Commencement today, and I can't get the valedictorian speeches out of my head.

Quote from: grubmanOnly if you let it!  I refuse to grow up and act mature!  (unless there is sex involved!)

So Scooby Doo Underoos are a bad choice for my "lucky" underwear?

All I can really say Spike is that you just keep doing what's fun for you, even if it means no gaming. Life shouldn't be spent being unhappy with your own hobbies.

Quote from: SpikeI like to ski, but no one I know says I'm a 'skiier', why should they about gaming?

You must not ski very often. If you ask someone their hobbies, and one of them is skiing, then they very often will say, "I'm a skiier." The more money they've spent on equipment and time they've spent skiing, the more likely they are to say, "I'm a skiier" rather than "I like to ski." As they spend more time and effort on something, it becomes part of their identity, and vice versa.

And when skiiers sit around with each-other in the evenings, they tell each-other stories of great runs they've had. If you go into a ski and alpine equipment shop just before the season starts, you'll find staff members nodding patiently as people tell them stories of the Great Run they did.

People get dorky about things they're really enthusiastic about.

And of course, some of those people get ashamed of their hobby, and don't talk about it. In my experience, these people are just generally reserved. For example I know a gamer who doesn't talk about his gaming at work, but also he doesn't tell people in his game group about his girlfriend, never says, "We went to this movie," or "we went to this nice cafe, you should check it out," or, "things are going well, she stays at my place a couple of nights a week now." He's just generally a reserved person.

Spike, if you think that we are dorks, then don't hang out with us. If you feel dorkier in our presence, sort that shit out, or go. No person should ever do things they're ashamed of, nor associate with people they dislike. It's bad for the soul.

But do remember that everyone is dorky about things they've great enthusiasm for. You can focus on the dorkiness if you like, I prefer to focus on the enthusiasm. I know it's terribly fashionable to be all suave and cool and cynical and bored by things - I know that all the cool kids are bored all the time - but enthusiasm is fun, and infectious.

If you don't like ours, then just go.

I ski often enough. I just generally don't hang out with skiiers afterwards. I'm very purpose driven.

I go, I ski, I go home. Same with paint ball. Same with parachuting. Same with...

... everything. Gaming is the one thing I do in my off time that seems to entail hanging out online with other gamers for long hours talking about... well... gaming.

Of course, when, on the off chance, I talk to someone about the latest visit to the slopes and that 'sick run' or how wet the powder was this season, I don't generally get sympathetic looks of 'you poor deluded fool' either that accompanies people talking about their character as if it were them.  

Like I said earlier, maybe I'm just adverse to being labeled.

Quote from: JimBobOzSpike, if you think that we are dorks, then don't hang out with us.

"We," "us"?

Speak for yourself.

Quote from: JimBobOzIf you don't like ours, then just go.

You banning people again?

See, Spike, the other thing is that you've mislabelled this thread. You've called it "gamers and gaming from the outside." But you're not really able to talk about perceptions of gamers and gaming from the outside, because you're inside. It'd be like me talking about how Australia sees Jews, or how the world sees Australians, or how office workers see chefs, or something.

You're talking about how you feel about gamers and gaming. This is about your personal embarassment or shame.

Quote from: SpikeI ski often enough. I just generally don't hang out with skiiers afterwards. I'm very purpose driven.

So then you don't know how dorky skiiers sound when they're babbling enthusiastically about their skiing. If you were to just go to game sessions and then forget about it between sessions, but were to hang out with skiiers outside skiing, sitting around at the club - then you might think that skiiers are dorky.

I assure you that other hobbies and professions are just as full of people speaking enthusiastically about them, and not shutting up when people are bored. My girlfriend plays volleyball, and recently I went to a party of her team members and their spouses and friends. Mate, they would not shut the fuck up about their games, and bitching about team members who weren't there, and the coach who wasn't very good, and, and, and...

The only difference between those volleyballers and a house full of gamers was that the volleyballers were fitter.

Quote from: SpikeOf course, when, on the off chance, I talk to someone about the latest visit to the slopes and that 'sick run' or how wet the powder was this season, I don't generally get sympathetic looks of 'you poor deluded fool' either that accompanies people talking about their character as if it were them.

And then of course I've been in the Army. Get a bunch of Army guys together in a pub, and I can tell you that the rest of the people in the pub will be looking at them like they're idiots.

Quote from: SpikeGaming is the one thing I do in my off time that seems to entail hanging out online with other gamers for long hours talking about... well... gaming.

Again, no person should do things which make them feel ashamed or uncomfortable. If talking about gaming makes you feel bad, don't do it. If gaming makes you feel bad, don't do it. If talking to us, or the people in your club or group makes you feel bad, don't do it.