I just recently made another acquisition for my collection with the Thieves' Guild boxed set.  This is the revised second edition.  As I'm reading through it, I am amazed by the LotR references (races include Hobbits and Uruk-Hai) as this was released in 1984.

Anyway, apparently, The Fantasy System is a fantasy system upon which Thieves' Guild is built, and two other games which are Naked Sword and Paths of Sorcery.  As I understand it, Gamelords followed the old Chaosium/BRP model in which each new game includes a copy of the basic game booklet (i.e. The Fantasy System) like the old Chaosium games included the 16-page BRP booklet.

Does anyone have a copy of Naked Sword or Paths of Sorcery?  Has anyone even seen these?  Are they any good?  

I never heard of them before until I read about them in the Thieves' Guild introduction.

Thieves Guild.
Isn't that a product that was based on the assumption everyone would play actual thieves, robbers, burglars et cetera? I think that's the stuff on which Croc (a French game designer) built his pure-Thieves AD&D campaign (which was a huge success for the players involved, IIRC). Color me interested!

I would certainly like to hear more.

Quote from: Benoist;333361Thieves Guild.
Isn't that a product that was based on the assumption everyone would play actual thieves, robbers, burglars et cetera?

QuoteIn a nutshell, yes.  Orignally, it started off as a series of fantasy supplements that focused on thief type (i.e. class) characters.  It developed into its own fantasy game system, which is called The Fantasy System.  The Fantasy System is a 32-page booklet included in the boxed set, which provides the rules for creating a character.  The Thieves' Guild booklet in the box provides the specific information regarding creating a thief type character, and focuses on campaigns based soley on a thief character.

Apparently, they expanded the line to include a game designed specifically for, and focused on, fighters and one for magic users.

Haven: The Free City was originally a campaign supplement designed in generic Thieves' Guild line of products.

It sounds pretty cool. What's the system like?

Quote from: Drohem;333358... Does anyone have a copy of Naked Sword or Paths of Sorcery?  Has anyone even seen these?  Are they any good?...

I'm 99% certain that these were never released.

I used to play a fair bit of Thieves' Guild, and was looking forward to these expansions in the mid-late 1980s, but they never materialized.

Likewise, the third part of Haven: The Free City was never published.

Quote from: brettmb;333374It sounds pretty cool. What's the system like?

It clearly has AD&D as a base, but adds a lot of different sub-systems (mainly thief-oriented, naturally, but some other things in the core book, e.g., a d1000 range of random advantages and disadvantages, iirc).

The Fantasy System sort of resembles 1e Palladium, in that both games clearly are 'responses' to AD&D (i.e., an AD&D 'base' with lots of things added), and display a 1980s fondness for a multiplicity of mechanically distinct 'sub-systems' to resolve different things.

Ack. Oh well. I'm more of an OD&D guy than AD&D.

Thieves Guild occupies a space between being a D&D hack and being its own game; it is obvious that the creators built it by expanding on the core D&D framework, and there are innumerable artifacts of this heritage (e.g. the ability of thieves to use scrolls). The system occupies 33 pages in the initial TG installment, with the understanding that later products would fill out unexplored areas, which they did - if you buy an installment, it is going to be a grab bag of optional rules, modular encounters and small scenarios (usually around a common theme). For example, Installment 2 adds more weapon types (with adjusted damage ratings), combat rules, guidelines for hiring and maintaining hirelings, bandit and highwayman encounters, and The Tombs of Shale-Chuun scenario, which combines the mini-dungeons of Keep on the Borderlands with the traps of The Tomb of Horrors, and is a cool, flexible set of adventures. The approach to the rules is extremely modular, and it would be relatively easy to rebuild them to one's liking.

Ability scores include Strength, Dexterity (subdivided into Coordination and Reflexes), Stamina (also used to derive Magic Resistance), Intelligence (subdivided into Discretion and Talent) and Attractiveness (subdivided into Appearance and Magnetism). Abilities are rolled on 3d6.
Races are a mixture of tolkienesque and fairy tale: humans, elves, half-elves, dwarves, hobbits, kobolds, orcs, uruk hai, half-orcs, goblins, pixies and centaurs are all playable. Additionally, random social background, modified by race, is a part of the game, influencing starting wealth, as well as weapon and non-weapon skills.
Damage uses the contemporary 3rd party abbreviation HTK (Hits To Kill); however, HTK is not a function of class, but an average of Strength and Stamina further modified by a table based on the total of these two attributes (e.g. if the total is 10 or less, the character gains +1d4 HTK; if it is 10-19, it is +1d6 etc.). There are separate saving rolls, which are actually roll-under ability checks rolled with 2d12; they are also used for non-combat task resolution.
Combat: the game uses HAC0 (a precursor to AD&D's THAC0, which was listed in the DMG but left unexplained until later) to resolve hits; weapons have different HAC0 ratings, daggers being easier to use than maces or larger swords. Combat actions take place simultaneously, and there is no initiative, so a character who suffers a death blow may still strike back. There are critical hits and fumbles resolved with a relatively simple chart, and thieves are given additional combat maneouvres (backstabbing, coshing (KOs), poison use and striking from concealment. Armour works as in D&D, but the base value is 0 and goes up, so quilted cloth is AC 2, leather AC 4, chain AC 6, scale AC 8 and plate AC 10. Additionally, armour absorbs a small amount of damage (1-3).
Skills: there is a wide range of skills associated with social background; characters must spend double skill points to purchase skills above their social standing! The skills of Thieves Guild are much more socially oriented than D&D's, and include a loving attention to roguish pursuits (which are treated separately, so any social class can learn them without penalty).
Magic: a full magic system is absent from the initial installment, but subsequent modules add it gradually - in the scenarios of installment 1 and 2, there are example spell lists which work on a spell point basis, and are probably more mundane and less interesting than the exoticism AD&D occasionally went into.
Experience: experience is awarded for combat, the sale of stolen goods (very cool!), successful ability rolls and success during encounters (with success conditions set by the DM). Gaining levels results in the occasional extra hit dice (e.g. one is gained at 3rd, 5th, 7th, 10th and 12th level), hit probability (+2 per 4 levels), dodge bonus (to AC, +1 per 3 levels) and the increase of thief abilities. As a neat way to treat NPCs, Thieves Guild stat blocks classify them as Green (LVL 1-2), Intermediate (LVL 3-5), Veteran (LVL 6-7) and Elite (LVL 8+).
Further guidelines focus on fields thieves may find interesting - these are separate subsystems for disguise, fencing, traders, a treatise on guild membership and structure, a justice system (with a huuuuuge chart to determine outcomes; however, Judges Guild's similar guidelines are more colourful).

There are allusions in the books to parts of The Fantasy System that would be presumably released later (and might have been - I only own the first two installements) - classes such as Archers, Centurions, Healers, Mages, Priests, Priestly Mages, Illusionists, Assassins, Troubadours, Traders Hetearae etc. are mentioned but not detailed.

An NPC stat block for Thieves Guild may look like this:

QuoteTorban the Turbulent: VET HU FTR [Veteran Human Fighter]; ST 18, CO 16, RF 16, SM 17, MR 11; Weapon BDSWDe [broadsword wielded with expertise] HAC0 4, Damage 3d8, L BOWe -2/2/6 1d6, Spear 3/6 2d8; AC C/S [Clothes/Shield]; HTK 44; WRHOR [Warhorse].

In conclusion, it must be added that the scenarios and playing aids of Thieves Guild are done with obvious care and understanding, although they are not typical D&D fare - better suited to a game with more emphasis on social simulation and social encounters than improbable dungeon crawls. For example, the first installment has very detailed encounter modules with merchants, locales for cat-burglary (one set in the Street of Silk Veils, a red-light district; another in an area of magic and curio shops) and random encounters.

The production values of Thieves Guild are spartan; first printswere supposed to be three ring-bound, and were laid out on some primitive computer (most likely); reprints are in the shape of small booklets. However, they are also extremely dense with material and more material. Secondly, the artwork by Janet Trautvetter, if amateurish, is full of character and a human warmth that is missing from RPG art; her depiction of sensibly dressed fighting women is a particular plus. I will try to scan a few pieces a bit later to showcase her talent.

Quote from: Akrasia;333375I'm 99% certain that these were never released.

I used to play a fair bit of Thieves' Guild, and was looking forward to these expansions in the mid-late 1980s, but they never materialized.

Likewise, the third part of Haven: The Free City was never published.

Yeah, that's why I asked the question.  I suspected that these were never released as I have never heard of them, even in passing.  I had heard about Thieves' Guild before, but not the others.

Quote from: brettmb;333374It sounds pretty cool. What's the system like?

See Melan's post- he nailed it.  I definitely think it's a cut above a simple AD&D hack.  It does take the focus out of the dungeon, and the artwork is good as he pointed out.

I wouldn't mind picking it up on the cheap if I find a good deal on ebay.

And a sampling of art by Janet Trautvetter. Also featured: the blocky charm of early DTP software (?).

Bandits (front cover):



Character races:



Combat:



Simulating the mediaeval justice system!



Abbreviations (VET PX ARC HLBRDe PLT/S MDHOR, anyone?):



Street encounters:



Hotness:



Tavern scene with shady types:

Damn.  Now I wish that my Thieves' Guild stuff was with me, and not stored in my parents' basement.

I think I'd really dig that. Arduin, incidentally, also referenced hobbits and uruk hai.
What a neat-looking game! Pushes my old-school buttons.