TheRPGSite

http://www.penny-arcade.com/2010/4/7/odd/

It's cool to see how open-minded Mike is about the whole thing, appreciating the past and willing to incorporate his own homebrews/ideas into his games (even in his 4e campaign).

I think that Gabe is the living embodiment of why edition wars are bullshit.

would love to see a follow-up post with his players' reactions.

I'd love to know how much wotc pays them to play D&D.

I... don't give a shit, actually. Why should I? :idunno:

I think that's kind of neat. I haven't played actual D&D in about twenty years. I sometimes think it'd be fun to go all old-school for old times' sake.

This . . .

Quote from: Somebody I've never heard of on a site I've never read beforeA sort of OD&D roller-coaster with all the twists and turns of old school gaming but minus the freedom and danger.

. . . sounds like he hasn't the first clue what he's talking about.

Who is this guy, and why does anyone care what he thinks, anyway?

Quote from: Benoist;372411I... don't give a shit, actually. Why should I? :idunno:

Well, other than the fact that they're the best form of advertisement for tabletop gaming currently available, and host the largest gaming conventions on the East and West coasts of the US, and the conventions are generally more upbeat and positive than Gencon (even around the tabletop events/areas)...

Basically, consistent readership of 3-4 million people (and growing) + the largest gaming conventions in the US == what these people play, other people will play, or at least try.

QuoteI'd love to know how much wotc pays them to play D&D.

For their comic-work, dunno.  For playing in the podcasts?  Next to nothing, probably, since compensation is probably included with the payment for the comics they produce for each podcast.  

Tycho has been a long-time tabletopper/PC gamer, and Gabe recently got into by way of Tycho and others.

If you're talking about his home game (the one talked about on the PA site), then nothing.  It's just a personal campaign of his.

Quote from: The Shaman;372448This . . .

A sort of OD&D roller-coaster with all the twists and turns of old school gaming but minus the freedom and danger.

. . . sounds like he hasn't the first clue what he's talking about.

Somehow, when I read this, I imagine playing OD&D, smoking a bong after eating spaghetti carbonara, with a sort of bondage trip going on as I'm strapped to my chair...

Man, I have no fucking clue what he's talking about either... :D

Didn't the original boxed set come with a bong?

Come on guys.  Be more old.

The most popular gaming related website on the fucking internet just name dropped, and linked, OD&D and Swords and Wizardry.

If you weren't so fucking clueless about the real world, you should be ecstatic.

Quote from: Aos;372462Didn't the original boxed set come with a bong?

Kellri came up with a useful list of substances used (or abused) during development of different RPG lines.

I can't remember what drugs were associated with OD&D, though.

Quote from: BenoistMan, I have no fucking clue what he's talking about either...

He's only been playing tabletop RPGs for maybe a year (or two, at most).  I wouldn't expect him to "get" old-school gaming, much less care about any sort of subcultures or ideologies associated with tabletop.

Quote from: J Arcane;372465Come on guys.  Be more old.

The most popular gaming related website on the fucking internet just name dropped, and linked, OD&D and Swords and Wizardry.

If you weren't so fucking clueless about the real world, you should be ecstatic.

First time I have agreed with J Arcane in months.

Quote from: J Arcane;372465Come on guys.  Be more old.

The most popular gaming related website on the fucking internet just name dropped, and linked, OD&D and Swords and Wizardry.

If you weren't so fucking clueless about the real world, you should be ecstatic.

Quote from: Melan;372467First time I have agreed with J Arcane in months.

No on both.

These guys clearly love console gaming, and some computer gaming.  If I want to know what is going on with the latest console games, this is the first place I would go.  The comic is usually pretty funny, also, even though it has a fairly moderate level of in-jokes that I don't care to figure out.

But when they talk about anything else, they are complete and utter morons.  Seriously.  It's like they post from Bizzaro-and-totally-fucking-wrong-world.  As already mentioned by several people, there is not even a fundamental grasp of OD&D present here; it's more like self-promotion to show they have 'street cred' or something.

If it gets eyeballs on Swords and Wizardry, great.  I'm all for that.  They do really great work with PAX, and they should be commended for that.  But they are also relentless attention whores.  Which, in all likelihood, is what got PAX off to such a great start and has seen its continued success.

So once again, it's more about the ideological purity than about the actual games or people playing them in whatever way they have the most fun.

I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.

QuoteBut when they talk about anything else, they are complete and utter morons. Seriously. It's like they post from Bizzaro-and-totally-fucking-wrong-world. As already mentioned by several people, there is not even a fundamental grasp of OD&D present here; it's more like self-promotion to show they have 'street cred' or something.

Gabe isn't the tabletop gamer (nor is he even a great writer).  That would be Tycho, who has a closet full of old RPG stuff (AD&D, Palladium, etc.).  It would be good to remember the two of them are actually a lot more different than they are similar in terms of interests.  Tycho is the long-time, more cerebral, PC/tabletop/RPG gamer.  Gabe is the console-only guy (with the exception of WoW when they played).

As for attention whores, I don't see how exactly.  They have a webcomic.  Their purpose is to entertain.  I don't see them doing anything more than is required.  They don't go cross-posting their blogs or anything, people just read them because they want to.

I know it's cool to hate things that are popular, or successful, but these guys aren't douche-bags, and if you'd read some of Tycho's posts, it's readily apparent the guy is smart as hell (and much better at writing than anyone here, for sure, with the exception of maybe one or two people).  They just love games.  God-forbid a guy from the PA crew who's new to tabletop wants to try something new or explore the roots of the hobby because he's found something he likes.  I did the same exact thing.

Gabe is hardly a pundit for anything.  He doesn't act like an expert.  He's not trying to get street cred.  He doesn't owe it to us or anyone else to justify the things he does to try to have fun.

I mean fuck, just because some of us are interested in the past doesn't mean we're trying to pose as you old guys.

(Also, their webcomic doesn't contain that many in-jokes...that's why I read it.  You have to care about video-games, though, but that's the target audience, anyway.)

Quote from: J Arcane;372465Come on guys.  Be more old.

I get that you're excited about this, J. Woo-hoo for you.

Me, I read that sentence and it's "Manwhut?!" I mean, it's English, I recognize the words, and the syntax is even passable, but I have no sodding clue what he's trying to describe about the game.

And y'know something else, J? I am old, and I'm fine with that. Reminding me of it doesn't shame me.

Quote from: J Arcane;372475So once again, it's more about the ideological purity than about the actual games or people playing them in whatever way they have the most fun.

You seem to have hit it here. What the hell does it matter why they're playing OD&D? There's always so much gnashing of teeth that more people aren't willing to try out OD&D, and then when a 4E player with a big audience does so and blogs about it, it's bad because he's doing it for the wrong reasons? Whatever that means?

Quote from: Peregrin;372476I know it's cool to hate things that are popular, or successful, but these guys aren't douche-bags, and if you'd read some of Tycho's posts, it's readily apparent the guy is smart as hell (and much better at writing than anyone here, for sure, with the exception of maybe one or two people).  They just love games.  God-forbid a guy from the PA crew who's new to tabletop wants to try something new or explore the roots of the hobby because he's found something he likes.

Indeed.

If you play OD&D because you really enjoy it, you would probably be happy that someone else is trying out this game you really love, and figure it will bring them as much joy as it brings you.

If you play OD&D because it's old and you figure it gives you gamer cred to do so, you would probably be upset about this because this new guy doesn't have the credentials you do, and shouldn't be playing your game.

Quote from: J Arcane;372465Come on guys.  Be more old.

The most popular gaming related website on the fucking internet just name dropped, and linked, OD&D and Swords and Wizardry.

If you weren't so fucking clueless about the real world, you should be ecstatic.

Penny Arcade is -that- popular?

Well. Cool I guess? If the guy loves S&W, and gives it enough coverage to allow other gamers out there to find out about if for the first time, that's great! I just don't know PA that well. If that makes me old, uncool, or not hip, alright. *shrug*

Also, J, please remove the buttplug from your ass once in a while. Take a breather. Relax. Laugh a little. ;)

Quote from: Aos;372462Didn't the original boxed set come with a bong?

You had to know the right people.

Quote from: Peregrin;372466He's only been playing tabletop RPGs for maybe a year (or two, at most).  I wouldn't expect him to "get" old-school gaming, much less care about any sort of subcultures or ideologies associated with tabletop.

Oh you'd be surprised. Actually, I think that someone who has not played role playing games at all would be more likely to "get" old school gaming from the get-go than a veteran of many game systems would.

Just to precise here: my jab about eating carbonara and smoking a bong was humor. Humor. You know.
If the guy enjoys OD&D, cool for him, I say.

Quote from: Peregrin;372476Gabe isn't the tabletop gamer (nor is he even a great writer).  That would be Tycho, who has a closet full of old RPG stuff (AD&D, Palladium, etc.).  It would be good to remember the two of them are actually a lot more different than they are similar in terms of interests.  Tycho is the long-time, more cerebral, PC/tabletop/RPG gamer.  Gabe is the console-only guy (with the exception of WoW when they played).

Yes, of course, minor details while entirely missing the point.  They are very good at video game stuff.  Their views seem to align pretty well with mine in that regard, so I would look for their opinion before going to IGN or anyone.  I mentioned that earlier.

QuoteAs for attention whores, I don't see how exactly.  They have a webcomic.  Their purpose is to entertain.  I don't see them doing anything more than is required.  They don't go cross-posting their blogs or anything, people just read them because they want to.

Again, missing the point.  They have to do a certain amount of attention whoring, and it is good in this case.  They have a very successful charity set up that does great work for kids.  They are to be commended for that, as I have already mentioned.

It doesn't change the fact that they are utterly clueless about nearly everything else.  UNICEF does great work for kids overseas, but I am not going to shit my pants if someone over there mentions that they are playing Labyrinth Lord, as though it were the salvation of the hobby.  UNICEF are not the people I turn to for a boost to the gaming scene.

QuoteI know it's cool to hate things that are popular, or successful, but these guys aren't douche-bags, and if you'd read some of Tycho's posts, it's readily apparent the guy is smart as hell (and much better at writing than anyone here, for sure, with the exception of maybe one or two people).  They just love games.  God-forbid a guy from the PA crew who's new to tabletop wants to try something new or explore the roots of the hobby because he's found something he likes.  I did the same exact thing.

I know it's cool to entirely mischaracterize an argument in order to support your own talking points, but I never said they are douchebags.  I don't give two shits if Gabe wants to try OD&D or heroin.  It's simply not even remotely as important as people are making it out to be.  For me personally, I have discovered that these two really have very little relevant stuff to say outside of video games.  You seem to think every word is honey-dripped blessings from the mouth of God.  Good for you.  Reality check:  Not everyone is going to agree with that.

QuoteGabe is hardly a pundit for anything.  He doesn't act like an expert.  He's not trying to get street cred.  He doesn't owe it to us or anyone else to justify the things he does to try to have fun.

Point out where I or anyone else said their fun has to be justified.

QuoteI mean fuck, just because some of us are interested in the past doesn't mean we're trying to pose as you old guys.

As the blog posts shows, you aren't interested in the past.  You are interested in the veneer of the past.  OD&D is simply lethal to the unwary, and sometimes, even to the adequately prepared.  So, people on this thread are bringing up that a 'sanitised' version of OD&D entirely misses the point.

Quote(Also, their webcomic doesn't contain that many in-jokes...that's why I read it.  You have to care about video-games, though, but that's the target audience, anyway.)

No shit.  Guess what?  

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/3/31/

Now, go ask your co-workers who aren't into gaming what 'GameCrush' is.  I'll wait.

Back?  Ok, that is a fucking in-joke.  You have to know about the culture to get it.  That is what I mean when I say 'in-joke'.  Half the comics on there are related to the news post in some esoteric manner, and after reading the news post, I still don't always know what the fuck they are on about.

But that is their schtick.  That is Penny Arcade.  They are not gods among men.  They are cartoonists who know a lot about video games and have a blog.  Would you completely shit your pants if Randall Munroe started yammering about Zelda or God of War?

I mean, fuck.  Get a grip.  These guys are only a few years younger than I am.  They aren't the emo hipsters of the video game world.

It's not about their opinion being more "valid" than anyone else, or them being hip, it's about the fact that they are one of the single most popular faces for the entirety of video gaming, and these days tabletop as well, and they just named dropped a system that otherwise gets maybe a few hundred hits a day.

It's about exposure, exposure this game would never get from a bunch of ancient fatbeards bitching away on blogs and forums that only a few hundred other bitchy fatbeards will ever see.  

If the goal of all those OSR shit is getting people interested in vintage gaming systems, then this is probably the biggest coup they have ever received.  

But instead, once again it's all about the clique, and having the right thoughts about OD&D, it's not good enough to play the game in a way you would enjoy, it's about playing the game the way the official line says it's supposed to be played in all those asinine "How to play Old School" primer things.

Quote from: J Arcane;372465Come on guys.  Be more old.

The most popular gaming related website on the fucking internet just name dropped, and linked, OD&D and Swords and Wizardry.

If you weren't so fucking clueless about the real world, you should be ecstatic.

Oh, I agree.

Quote from: J Arcane;372555But instead, once again it's all about the clique, and having the right thoughts about OD&D, it's not good enough to play the game in a way you would enjoy, it's about playing the game the way the official line says it's supposed to be played in all those asinine "How to play Old School" primer things.

Bullshit.  It's about Penny Arcade not being the household name you think it is.

It's Shark Week on therpgsite.



























Again.

Quote from: Aos;372561It's Shark Week on therpgsite.

I love Shark Week.  They get their biggest ratings for those shows.

Quote from: J Arcane;372555It's not about their opinion being more "valid" than anyone else, or them being hip, it's about the fact that they are one of the single most popular faces for the entirety of video gaming, and these days tabletop as well, and they just named dropped a system that otherwise gets maybe a few hundred hits a day.

It's about exposure, exposure this game would never get from a bunch of ancient fatbeards bitching away on blogs and forums that only a few hundred other bitchy fatbeards will ever see.  

If the goal of all those OSR shit is getting people interested in vintage gaming systems, then this is probably the biggest coup they have ever received.  

But instead, once again it's all about the clique, and having the right thoughts about OD&D, it's not good enough to play the game in a way you would enjoy, it's about playing the game the way the official line says it's supposed to be played in all those asinine "How to play Old School" primer things.

OH. COME. ON. :rolleyes:

Nobody but you is going apeshit about it. The exposure is really, really cool! All fine and dandy! More people for the party and shit. Great! As for this Gabe-guy liking the game and using it, cool too!

I'm not going to wet myself because this guy is using OD&D for a couple of sessions in his campaign, though. Because I don't know Penny Arcade that  much, and I'm not that desperate for the OSR to acquire any kind of attention that I'm going to masturbate each time one of the cool kids posts something about it on his blog.

I mean. Come on, man.

I find it cute that familiarity with a video-gaming website is apparently equivalent to knowledge about "real life." I'm fairly certain that if I polled the 100 people at my company right now that less than a quarter of them would have heard of Penny Arcade, and that's counting all the guys in the IT department ;)

Quote from: J Arcane;372465Come on guys.  Be more old.

The most popular gaming related website on the fucking internet just name dropped, and linked, OD&D and Swords and Wizardry.

If you weren't so fucking clueless about the real world, you should be ecstatic.

Word.

From a exposure standpoint, a website as PA talking about S&W is fucking great. Sorry, Stormbringer, but I'm disagreeing with you here.

Quote from: Fifth Element;372495There's always so much gnashing of teeth that more people aren't willing to try out OD&D, and then when a 4E player with a big audience does so and blogs about it, it's bad because he's doing it for the wrong reasons? Whatever that means?

It's a paradox I've found since the very beginning of my gaming life. People complaining on how gaming is so insular and obscure, and then getting mad because it starts being mainstream.

QuoteIf you play OD&D because it's old and you figure it gives you gamer cred to do so, you would probably be upset about this because this new guy doesn't have the credentials you do, and shouldn't be playing your game.

Zing!

Quote from: T. Foster;372566I find it cute that familiarity with a video-gaming website is apparently equivalent to knowledge about "real life." I'm fairly certain that if I polled the 100 people at my company right now that less than a quarter of them would have heard of Penny Arcade, and that's counting all the guys in the IT department ;)

Lol, I'm with ya. Hell, I work in a giant building full of folks that strongly resemble the cast of Big Bang Theory and I bet even a huge portion of them have never heard of this Penny Arcade thing.

This "blog" doesn't have a "comment" option, does it?
Or did i just botch my spot roll?

I wonder how all these co-workers would feel having your ignorance projected onto them.

Do you guys even realize how big video games themselves are anymore, or are you really that fucking decrepit?

Quote from: StormBringer;372560Bullshit.  It's about Penny Arcade not being the household name you think it is.

It's a bigger fucking name than the entire OSR.  Those guys linking to a site can complete wreck it due to all the incoming traffic.  I'm honestly surprised swordsandwizardry.com is functional right now.

I'm with J on this one.

Quote from: J Arcane;372579I wonder how all these co-workers would feel having your ignorance projected onto them.

Do you guys even realize how big video games themselves are anymore, or are you really that fucking decrepit?

Stop being a fucking moron. I've been video gaming almost as long as I've been ttrpging. Our DM at the Boy's Club in Norfolk Va used to bring in his Apple computer that had a D&D-like game on it that was little colored blocks moving around a little grey path and occasionally encountering other colored blocks that were "monsters". I'm as into video gaming as anyone, with a couple computers with games and an XBOX 360 upstairs. I never look at Penny Arcade. Just because you think it's the bee's knees doesn't make it the greatest thing EVAR! It's nice that they're interested in and are talking about S&W, but my reaction is, so what? I'll ask some of my co-workers tomorrow and we'll see how ignorant I am.

Quote from: StormBringer;372550As the blog posts shows, you aren't interested in the past.  You are interested in the veneer of the past.  OD&D is simply lethal to the unwary, and sometimes, even to the adequately prepared.  So, people on this thread are bringing up that a 'sanitised' version of OD&D entirely misses the point

Don't confuse me with Gabe.  I wouldn't play OD&D the way he does (nor would I play it the way a lot of OSR guys do!).  But we're both interested in the same things for similar reasons.

Other points taken, and maybe I took your post to be more negative than it was, but I still feel like it was a jab at a "newbie" that so often happens in tabletop.

Quote from: jrients;372581Those guys linking to a site can complete wreck it due to all the incoming traffic.  I'm honestly surprised swordsandwizardry.com is functional right now.

The site worked just fine for me just now. Maybe them linking a site can't completely wreck it after all.

Quote from: Imperator;372574It's a paradox I've found since the very beginning of my gaming life. People complaining on how gaming is so insular and obscure, and then getting mad because it starts being mainstream.

That's an interesting thing to say, and I'm going to plug into this conversation to see where it goes.

Here's the thing, for me: over time, during my "gaming life", I noticed that the more the game's popular, the more corporate interests and sheer ignorance take charge of the game's design, aims and actual contents (don't mistake this for some sort of communist bullshit though - corporations do what they're set out to do: make profits, keep people employed, and so on, so forth). It becomes less and less a matter of quality, but quantity. The game has to sell. Period. Popularity = successful game design.

This, to me, is pure bullshit, from a hobbyist's standpoint. I don't believe quality equals quantity. I don't believe that because something's popular, it automatically means it's "good" for anything else than the corporation's returns. It certainly doesn't mean it's automatically good for my game table, or to my particular game interests.

I want RPGs to be popular, but don't want them to be popular by any means necessary, at any price, whatever it takes, even if that means for them to not be role playing games at all. What I want is for role playing games to be what they are, to be designed for other reasons than just fulfilling the bottom line this time around.

I said it before: I believe in the craft of the game, not its assembly lines.

If that makes RPGs more popular than they currently are, awesome. If that means they remain niche activities for the geeks, I'm fine with it too. Popularity is not an end to me, it's a mean, at best.

Quote from: Sigmund;372584The site worked just fine for me just now. Maybe them linking a site can't completely wreck it after all.

I usually read PA a day or two behind the curve.  More than once over the years I've seen a link from Monday's update that was broken on Tuesday, updated with a "sorry we crashed your site" note from Gabe & Tycho.

Quote from: jrients;372587I usually read PA a day or two behind the curve.  More than once over the years I've seen a link from Monday's update that was broken on Tuesday, updated with a "sorry we crashed your site" note from Gabe & Tycho.

Dunno. Honestly, never looked at the PA site before now, although I have heard it mentioned in the past here on this forum. Then again, the only online comic I read is Order of the Stick, and I don't read blogs at all, about anything. Still, as far as I'm concerned, they could be discussing S&W on Meet the Press and my only reaction would be "Eh, look at that..." before moving on. I suppose if one were to think of attracting potential players then one might be happy to see these PA people mentioning it, guess I just don't believe it's going to have all that much effect.

Quote from: Sigmund;372582Stop being a fucking moron. I've been video gaming almost as long as I've been ttrpging. Our DM at the Boy's Club in Norfolk Va used to bring in his Apple computer that had a D&D-like game on it that was little colored blocks moving around a little grey path and occasionally encountering other colored blocks that were "monsters". I'm as into video gaming as anyone, with a couple computers with games and an XBOX 360 upstairs. I never look at Penny Arcade. Just because you think it's the bee's knees doesn't make it the greatest thing EVAR! It's nice that they're interested in and are talking about S&W, but my reaction is, so what? I'll ask some of my co-workers tomorrow and we'll see how ignorant I am.

Don't you fucking get it?  Do you even read the words on your screen?

THIS ISN'T FUCKING ABOUT ME.

In 2006, PA was getting more than 2 million pageviews a day.  They've only gotten more popular since then. PAX is now the biggest general access gaming convention there is.  Child's Play has raised over 5 million dollars since they founded it, they've been recognized by Time magazine, their own State, countless industry publications.  They've been an influential lynchpin in garnering what acceptance 4e has mustered in the mainstream.

That's fucking relevant, whether your clueless ass reads it or not.  And it's a fuck of a lot more exposure than some fuckstick blog that only 10 people read, all of whom already know each other.  

It has nothing to do with what I, J_Arcane, personally think about the comic or the people who created it.  It has to do with the objective fact that they are an extremely popular and influential media source.

And they just put a whole post about your precious S&W on the front page.  Even assuming their traffic hasn't improved in the slightest in the last 4 years, that's still 2 million bloody people that just saw Gabe talking about OD&D.  

That's exposure you simply will never, ever see the game get otherwise.

Quote from: J Arcane;372589Don't you fucking get it?  Do you even read the words on your screen?

THIS ISN'T FUCKING ABOUT ME.

I'm glad you're excited by this incredible feat S&W has achieved by being talked about on some video gaming site. However, where you're being a moron is in assuming that just because Penny Arcade doesn't make me cream my shorts I'm old and don't play video games.

QuoteIn 2006, PA was getting more than 2 million pageviews a day.  They've only gotten more popular since then. PAX is now the biggest general access gaming convention there is.  Child's Play has raised over 5 million dollars since they founded it, they've been recognized by Time magazine, their own State, countless industry publications.

Good for them. Really. That's awesome.

QuoteThat's fucking relevant, whether your clueless ass reads it or not.

Relevant to what or whom? Why do you have this need for this news of yours to be so univerally exciting? It's great that you enjoy Penny Arcade, and that many other folks do too, and that they do such good work. That really is awesome. However, that one of the fellers involved with them is talking a little bit about playing S&W just doesn't seem like that big of a fucking deal to me. I doubt very seriously whether it's going to all of a sudden make S&W some kind of break-out hit in some way. Maybe I'm wrong, wouldn't be the first time, but I'm not gonna hold my breath. Other than this forum, I've never encountered anyone who has mentioned Penny Arcade, not at work, not at ttrpg sessions, not in stores. I'm sure some of the folks might have known about it, but it probably just wasn't important enough to them to mention. So, why don't you settle your abrasive, big-mouthed ass down before you get really annoying and give yourself an ulcer on top of it all.

QuoteAnd it's a fuck of a lot more exposure than some fuckstick blog that only 10 people read, all of whom already know each other.

Yay.  

QuoteIt has nothing to do with what I, J_Arcane, personally think about the comic or the people who created it.  It has to do with the objective fact that they are an extremely popular and influential media source.

And they just put a whole post about your precious S&W on the front page.  Even assuming their traffic hasn't improved in the slightest in the last 4 years, that's still 2 million bloody people that just saw Gabe talking about OD&D.

That's exposure you simply will never, ever see the game get otherwise.

Just a couple points. S&W is not "mine", although I do have print copies. Nor do I consider it "precious", and in fact I prefer LL or OSRIC personally. I get the "extremely popular and influencial media source" and all, but I just don't see why that's such a big deal for a free (for the pdf) clone of a very old ttrpg that most likely is still never going to gain wide-spread appeal. D&D in various incarnations has been mentioned in bigger venues than PA many, many times in the past, it's not like this is something new that nobody has known about before. If I'm wrong, then rock on S&W, but I'm not going to run out and buy stock in S&W.

Quote from: Peregrin;372583Don't confuse me with Gabe.  I wouldn't play OD&D the way he does (nor would I play it the way a lot of OSR guys do!).  But we're both interested in the same things for similar reasons.

Other points taken, and maybe I took your post to be more negative than it was, but I still feel like it was a jab at a "newbie" that so often happens in tabletop.

My apologies, it came across as more aggressive than I intended.  I was referring to the idea some propose that an 'old rules-new style' mixture necessarily indicated an interest in the past; unfortunately, you were caught up in my over-wide net.

And of course, Gabe, or you, or anyone else doesn't have to have an interest in the past to have an interest in these rulesets.  I don't care one way or another, really, but it is interesting to hear opinions about them.  If he further goes on to explain what he likes or dislikes or how the game went, I would be interested in that.

But the idea that Penny Arcade is the 'go-to' site for video gamers, ahead of IGN, Gamespot, G4TV or even Metacritic is simply ridiculous.  Hell, Google 'video game reviews' and they don't even show up.  Sure, they are right at the top for 'video game cartoons', but most casual to moderately interested gamers won't be looking for 'video game cartoons' to find out if a game is worth buying or not.

On the other hand, if they were to make role playing sessions a bit more prominent in the strip itself, I wouldn't be as neutral about the mention.  Most people know Jerry is a pretty avid table top gamer, but it is generally filed away with other information, like he is totally bald or wears glasses.  It's not really the recognition trigger for him.  I'm sure there are fans that respect his opinion on RPG matters, as well as Mike's, and if they are exposed to S&W, and by extension other retro-clones, great!  It's not going to swarm people onto Dragonsfoot or K&KA, however.

I think you are realistic enough to know that, however.  :)

EDIT:  Forgot to add a correction:  PAX is the gaming convention, Child's Play is the charity they started.

Quote from: J Arcane;372589That's fucking relevant, whether your clueless ass reads it or not.  And it's a fuck of a lot more exposure than some fuckstick blog that only 10 people read, all of whom already know each other.

If I read the fuckstick's blog, it's relevant to me. I don't read PA, so it's not relevant to me.
Which is what my original remark, "Why should I care?", was honestly about.

Quote from: J Arcane;372589And they just put a whole post about your precious S&W on the front page.  Even assuming their traffic hasn't improved in the slightest in the last 4 years, that's still 2 million bloody people that just saw Gabe talking about OD&D.  

That's exposure you simply will never, ever see the game get otherwise.

It's really cool. Awesome. Really really. :)

Quote from: Sigmund;372588Dunno. Honestly, never looked at the PA site before now, although I have heard it mentioned in the past here on this forum. Then again, the only online comic I read is Order of the Stick, and I don't read blogs at all, about anything. Still, as far as I'm concerned, they could be discussing S&W on Meet the Press and my only reaction would be "Eh, look at that..." before moving on. I suppose if one were to think of attracting potential players then one might be happy to see these PA people mentioning it, guess I just don't believe it's going to have all that much effect.

Exactly.  If Robin Williams had talked a bit about RPGs on Jon Stewart the other night, I would be excited.  If Vin Diesel started mentioning S&W or LL on his Facebook page, I would drop them a note to warn of the impending flood.

I think the way Jerry Holkins played OD&D sucks.  He doesn't quite seem to "get it", but that's fine, he barely grasped what an RPG was until he picked up 4e, so, "whatever".

If any of you posted that report to your 'blog, or here, or on another forum, it'd be straight up LUL TROEL TEH GROGNERDS fodder, but again, all he knows about "old" D&D is through museum exhibit glass cases or library entries.

In the overall the exposure for S&W matters more to me than his "mumble mumble old D&D mumble mumble."  Also I have a member of my family who has benefited from Childs' Play so yay for that and them.

Quote from: J Arcane;372589And they just put a whole post about your precious S&W on the front page.  Even assuming their traffic hasn't improved in the slightest in the last 4 years, that's still 2 million bloody people that just saw Gabe talking about OD&D.  

That's exposure you simply will never, ever see the game get otherwise.

And?  Are you familiar with the response rates on advertising or mass mailings?  You are assuming that every single hit is going to then have an interest in S&W and go to their site.  A good response rate is something like 1-2%.  So, if every single hit they get for the day is on that page exclusively (hint: it isn't) and every one of those hits is a distinct individual (hint: it isn't) and each of those distinct individuals is an actual person (hint: they aren't), then S&W may get something like 20,000 hits.  Maybe 40,000 if the response is really good.  But let's shoot the moon and say online responses are much better.  10% = 200,000.  I guarantee a large percentage of that will simply skim it, and click away.

2mil people seeing Gabe talk about S&W is very, very different than 2mil people rushing over to download S&W.

I do not dig PA -- I don't play video games, so 95% of their humor goes right over my head. And I've set J Arcane on ignore here.

But all that said, I am astonished by the responses from so many grognards in this thread. (I was not in the least surprised to see Jamie Mal pooh-pooh this development, though.)

J Arcane is absolutely, 100% right here: Penny Arcade is fucking huge, and their interest in Swords and Wizardry -- for whatever reason -- should be seen as nothing but a complete and total CRAZY WIN for the OSR. PA probably gets more pageviews in a day than a combination of all P&P RPG forum sites in a week.

And yet, we get lots of mehs and grousing.

For all the cheap palaver about bringing "the Old Ways" to a new audience and bringing new energy to these cool games, far too many OSR people live the caricature: they would prefer to hermetically seal themselves under a big glass bell with their bong, 8-tracks, and tattered copies of the three little books.

If the OSR fails, it won't be because greedy cooperate interests swooped in and co-opted the movement with their filthy commercialization and pretty packaging. And won't be because a bunch of obnoxious young punks infected everything with their strange anime and video game references.

It will be because too many old, out-of-touch fucks couldn't stop bitching and actually make something fresh, exciting, and -- I don't know, inviting? -- for a new audience.

All of the grognard angst and kvetching is completely misplaced. We Have Met the Enemy…and They is Us

Ad responses are much lower than honest links from people though. Not that it'll approach 100% or even 25%, but honest links from a website author direct a lot more traffic.

Y'all could be a little less crusty. I wouldn't play the game the way he does (I'm not enough of an antiquarian to be especially interested in OD&D but the bit about "playing a game where your weapon might break" made me roll my eyes) but he is directing attention to the game and, I dunno, try to be a little friendly?

Quote from: Garnfellow;372606For all the cheap palaver about bringing "the Old Ways" to a new audience and bringing new energy to these cool games, far too many OSR people would prefer to hermetically seal themselves under a big glass bell with their bong, 8-tracks, and tattered copies of the three little books.

And that is the other point.  This isn't bringing 'the old ways' (whatever the fuck you mean by that) to a new audience.  The man says it himself, it's going to be D&D with safety bumpers.

PA does some really good stuff, and within the video game scene, they are very popular.  That is nothing like 'mainstream', however, no matter how many more people jump on here to gush about how ginormously fucking huge they are.  They are popular among video gamers.  Fuck, most of them who are over 30 are already captured, or have no interest in role playing of any sort, let alone a retro-clone.

Quote from: Garnfellow;372606I do not dig PA -- I don't play video games, so 95% of their humor goes right over my head. And I've set J Arcane on ignore here.

But all that said, I am astonished by the responses from so many grognards in this thread. (I was not in the least surprised to see Jamie Mal pooh-pooh this development, though.)

J Arcane is absolutely, 100% right here: Penny Arcade is fucking huge, and their interest in Swords and Wizardry -- for whatever reason -- should be seen as nothing but a complete and total CRAZY WIN for the OSR. PA probably gets more pageviews in a day than a combination of all P&P RPG forum sites get in a week.

I honestly had no idea PA was that popular. Very cool.

Quote from: Garnfellow;372606And yet, we get lots of mehs and grousing.

For all the cheap palaver about bringing "the Old Ways" to a new audience and bringing new energy to these cool games, far too many OSR people would prefer to hermetically seal themselves under a big glass bell with their bong, 8-tracks, and tattered copies of the three little books.

If the OSR fails, it won't be because greedy cooperate interests swooped in and co-opted the movement with their filthy commercialization and pretty packaging. It will be because too mnay old, out-of-touch fucks couldn't stop bitching and actually make something fresh and compelling for a new audience.

Excluded middle, and OD&D/Ford Model T fallacy. :)

I'm getting serious subcultural whiplash from fellow geeks that are like "What's the Penny Arcades?" Granted, I just went to PAX (with thousands of other geeks, including thousands of active TTRPG players), so I'm probably at one corner of the skew. Still: in my various circles, the PA crew are one of the more important voices in gaming (yes, far above IGN, Gamespot and all that.) YMMV.

ETA: I obviously don't care about what comics you read or don't, which blogs are popular or not, etc., nor am I requiring any of you to enjoy their rather specific humor. Just surprised at subcultural differences.

i'm in the "this is BIG" camp on this one.  if it makes one or two folks try something other than 4e and expand their gaming horizons, the mention is a success.  i'm also surprised at the amount of "meh" responses.  had no idea so many folks in this hobby were clueless in that regard. :confused:

Quote from: Imp;372607Ad responses are much lower than honest links from people though. Not that it'll approach 100% or even 25%, but honest links from a website author direct a lot more traffic.

Y'all could be a little less crusty. I wouldn't play the game the way he does (I'm not enough of an antiquarian to be especially interested in OD&D but the bit about "playing a game where your weapon might break" made me roll my eyes) but he is directing attention to the game and, I dunno, try to be a little friendly?

Ok, I knew my response numbers were a bit low, but I just wanted to throw some examples out there.  The point being, and you seem to agree, is that 2mil readers does not equal 2mil S&W downloads.

I don't think anyone here is being less than friendly, honestly.  Benoist, myself, several others are saying 'Good for S&W!'.  Despite claims to the contrary, no one here is saying they are assholes or baby-killers.  When the S&W guys come along to say their site was crashed with 200,000 hits, or they have a consistent uptick of 5,000 more hits a day or something, then I will be excited.

Quote from: Garnfellow;372606All of the grognard angst and kvetching is completely misplaced. We Have Met the Enemy...and They is Us

Unless I missed a thread various forums devoted to Old School D&D are pretty sedate in their responses to the penny arcade article. They are either "meh? who cares." or "Way to go!". It only here, enworld, and rpg.net that I see numerous argumentative posts. And most of those seems to involves those who argue with each other no matter what the issue is.

Quote from: StormBringer;372608And that is the other point.  This isn't bringing 'the old ways' (whatever the fuck you mean by that) to a new audience.  The man says it himself, it's going to be D&D with safety bumpers.

PA does some really good stuff, and within the video game scene, they are very popular.  That is nothing like 'mainstream', however, no matter how many more people jump on here to gush about how ginormously fucking huge they are.  They are popular among video gamers.  Fuck, most of them who are over 30 are already captured, or have no interest in role playing of any sort, let alone a retro-clone.

This shows how far your head is up your ass here: video games are mainstream now. They are not some niche little geek product only for the computer nerds. The jocks play video games. The prom queens play video games. The Grandmothers have wiis and play video games.

I don't play 'em, but that doesn't mean they aren't ubiquitous or enormously influential on American culture. The influence of video games is probably 2 or 3 orders of magnitude greater than pen and paper games.

Penny Arcade is not mainstream, and they aren't household names, but if they have even a fraction of an audience that is 2 or 3 orders of magnitude greater than pen and paper games, that means they are still reaching a large, and largely untapped, market for S&W.

Any person who loves pen and paper roleplaying games and is not retarded or insane should be over the fucking moon about this development. It's not like there is any imaginable downside to having a whole bunch of new people check out S&W.

Will they stay? I don't know. But given the likely reception they will receive, I'm not sure why they would.

Quote from: Garnfellow;372615This shows how far your head is up your ass here: video games are mainstream now. They are not some niche little geek product only for the computer nerds. The jocks play video games. The prom queens play video games. The Grandmothers have wiis and play video games.

Yes, this is exactly what I said, because the last console I played on was an Atari 2600.

Moron.

Quote from: StormBringer;372613When the S&W guys come along to say their site was crashed with 200,000 hits, or they have a consistent uptick of 5,000 more hits a day or something, then I will be excited.

PA can definitely direct that kind of traffic. I mean, I wouldn't guarantee a number, but you're looking at somewhere in the same order of magnitude I think, esp. on the hits-per-day figure.

Quote from: Garnfellow;372615Penny Arcade is not mainstream, and they aren't household names

Thank you.

Going back to the 'substance' of Gabe's post, that S&W session he ran sounded fucking horrible. Check it out:

Quote from: GabeA sort of OD&D roller-coaster with all the twists and turns of old school gaming but minus the freedom and danger.

During the game I used the television behind me to display a slideshow of old artwork from the history of D&D.

I was kicking it old school with the multimedia presentation too, just like the Exploding Plastic Inevitable, minus good drugs, good music, and hot sluts in go-go boots. But I did try to get the players into that mindset with some sweet pictures of Teri Garr (http://stupidcelebrities.net/wp-content/41631.jpg).

Quote from: estar;372614Unless I missed a thread various forums devoted to Old School D&D are pretty sedate in their responses to the penny arcade article. They are either "meh? who cares." or "Way to go!".

My reaction was BOTH "meh? who cares" as they obviously don't get OD&D at all but its sounds like they had fun AND "way to go!" on the mention of/link to Swords & Wizardry. As I'm not a video or computer gamer, I don't know these folks from Adam, but I hear they are popular and free advertising for a retroclone is almost always a good thing.

Quote from: Garnfellow;372606I do not dig PA -- I don't play video games, so 95% of their humor goes right over my head. And I've set J Arcane on ignore here.

But all that said, I am astonished by the responses from so many grognards in this thread. (I was not in the least surprised to see Jamie Mal pooh-pooh this development, though.)

J Arcane is absolutely, 100% right here: Penny Arcade is fucking huge, and their interest in Swords and Wizardry -- for whatever reason -- should be seen as nothing but a complete and total CRAZY WIN for the OSR. PA probably gets more pageviews in a day than a combination of all P&P RPG forum sites in a week.

And yet, we get lots of mehs and grousing.

For all the cheap palaver about bringing "the Old Ways" to a new audience and bringing new energy to these cool games, far too many OSR people live the caricature: they would prefer to hermetically seal themselves under a big glass bell with their bong, 8-tracks, and tattered copies of the three little books.

If the OSR fails, it won't be because greedy cooperate interests swooped in and co-opted the movement with their filthy commercialization and pretty packaging. And won't be because a bunch of obnoxious young punks infected everything with their strange anime and video game references.

It will be because too many old, out-of-touch fucks couldn't stop bitching and actually make something fresh, exciting, and -- I don't know, inviting? -- for a new audience.

All of the grognard angst and kvetching is completely misplaced. We Have Met the Enemy...and They is Us

I think what you all are failing to realize is that only a few folks are "meh" about this, and at least one of us few, that being me, are so very not "OSR". I have S&W, and LL in print, and the pdfs for the others. Played LL and OSRIC each once. Otherwise, not really OSR even in games played. I like them ok, have nothing against them at all. Enjoy the "old school" feel in games well enough. Don't read OSR blogs, web sites, or whatever else. Honestly, I'd probably much more interested in PA talking about video gaming. I just don't see where this is all that big of a deal. Please point out to me where "too many old, out-of-touch fucks couldn't stop bitching and actually make something fresh, exciting, and -- I don't know, inviting? -- for a new audience". I'd like to know who these folks are who you are describing when you say "far too many OSR people live the caricature: they would prefer to hermetically seal themselves under a big glass bell with their bong, 8-tracks, and tattered copies of the three little books."

Really, I'm sorry us old fogies don't share all you young whippersnapper's enthusiasm about some internet video gamer and comic strip people mentioning S&W, but it's really not that exciting. Do ya'all honestly think it's going to make that much of a difference? Time will tell, but as i said before, I'm not holding my breath.

Quote from: DevP;372610I'm getting serious subcultural whiplash from fellow geeks that are like "What's the Penny Arcades?" Granted, I just went to PAX (with thousands of other geeks, including thousands of active TTRPG players), so I'm probably at one corner of the skew. Still: in my various circles, the PA crew are one of the more important voices in gaming (yes, far above IGN, Gamespot and all that.) YMMV.

ETA: I obviously don't care about what comics you read or don't, which blogs are popular or not, etc., nor am I requiring any of you to enjoy their rather specific humor. Just surprised at subcultural differences.

Speaking only for myself, the issue is that I don't read any but the one online comic, and I don't ever read blogs. Hell, even the gaming with porn stars blog only held my interest for about 10 minutes, and it's actually a pretty good one it seems. I don't pretend to be the norm in this regard though, it's just I can only speak for myself in regards to this stuff. I can also say I know several other folks who are not regular blog readers, even some who are avid video gamers themselves, so I know I'm not alone anyway.

Quote from: Imp;372619PA can definitely direct that kind of traffic. I mean, I wouldn't guarantee a number, but you're looking at somewhere in the same order of magnitude I think, esp. on the hits-per-day figure.

'Can', 'could', 'might'...  So?  Have they?  Has this potential flood of fans dumped all over S&W, or are we waiting for the Heisen-hits to settle on a definite state?

Quote from: beeber;372611i'm in the "this is BIG" camp on this one.  if it makes one or two folks try something other than 4e and expand their gaming horizons, the mention is a success.  i'm also surprised at the amount of "meh" responses.  had no idea so many folks in this hobby were clueless in that regard. :confused:

Do you really think it's because we're "clueless"? Do you really think this is going to be some giant coup for S&W? Maybe I am clueless cuz I'm just not believing that it's going to make much of a splash. It's mildly interesting, and certainly not a bad thing IMO, but I really don't see the big deal either.

What I find interesting as well is the way, when some of us go "huh? Why should I care", it's like we slapped people in the face and should like fall on our knees to worship Penny Arcade. Really, it's awesome to get the exposure, but then again, I'm not going to touch myself over it, especially, as previously mentioned, when I read stuff like this:

Quote from: GabeA sort of OD&D roller-coaster with all the twists and turns of old school gaming but minus the freedom and danger.

During the game I used the television behind me to display a slideshow of old artwork from the history of D&D.

I was kicking it old school with the multimedia presentation too, just like the Exploding Plastic Inevitable, minus good drugs, good music, and hot sluts in go-go boots. But I did try to get the players into that mindset with some sweet pictures of Teri Garr.

Good for him really. I'm not taking offense or anything.

Quote from: StormBringer;372613Ok, I knew my response numbers were a bit low, but I just wanted to throw some examples out there.  The point being, and you seem to agree, is that 2mil readers does not equal 2mil S&W downloads.

I don't think anyone here is being less than friendly, honestly.  Benoist, myself, several others are saying 'Good for S&W!'.  Despite claims to the contrary, no one here is saying they are assholes or baby-killers.  When the S&W guys come along to say their site was crashed with 200,000 hits, or they have a consistent uptick of 5,000 more hits a day or something, then I will be excited.

Here here SB. I'd love to be proven completely wrong about this. Still, I'm not gonna hold my breath.

Quote from: Sigmund;372624Please point out to me where "too many old, out-of-touch fucks couldn't stop bitching and actually make something fresh, exciting, and -- I don't know, inviting? -- for a new audience". I'd like to know who these folks are who you are describing when you say "far too many OSR people live the caricature: they would prefer to hermetically seal themselves under a big glass bell with their bong, 8-tracks, and tattered copies of the three little books."

Some name-calling for "some people", "somewhere in the OSR". Not naming names. Note though: before it was "the OSR this", "the OSR that". Now we have "some people within the OSR". So there's some progress... I suppose. :idunno:

Quote from: Garnfellow;372615This shows how far your head is up your ass here: video games are mainstream now. They are not some niche little geek product only for the computer nerds. The jocks play video games. The prom queens play video games. The Grandmothers have wiis and play video games.

I don't play 'em, but that doesn't mean they aren't ubiquitous or enormously influential on American culture. The influence of video games is probably 2 or 3 orders of magnitude greater than pen and paper games.

Penny Arcade is not mainstream, and they aren't household names, but if they have even a fraction of an audience that is 2 or 3 orders of magnitude greater than pen and paper games, that means they are still reaching a large, and largely untapped, market for S&W.

Any person who loves pen and paper roleplaying games and is not retarded or insane should be over the fucking moon about this development. It's not like there is any imaginable downside to having a whole bunch of new people check out S&W.

Will they stay? I don't know. But given the likely reception they will receive, I'm not sure why they would.

The problem is, we've seen this more than once before. RPGing in general and D&D in particular have been mentioned in mainstream outlets before, many times. Hell, EGG himself was on The Simpsons. D&D used to have it's own cartoon. Did they have an effect? Sure. Was it some instant bonanza of exposure and interest. No, not really. Ya'all are saying this is a huge deal, but I don't buy it. I'll believe it when I see it.

Quote from: FASERIP;372622Going back to the 'substance' of Gabe's post, that S&W session he ran sounded fucking horrible. Check it out:

Completely clueless. If he really wanted the "Old School" feel, he wouldn't have had Teri Garr, he would have had the poster of Farah Fawcett... ya'all know the one I mean... ya know ya do.

Quote from: Benoist;372630Some name-calling for "some people", "somewhere in the OSR". Not naming names. Note though: before it was "the OSR this", "the OSR that". Now we have "some people within the OSR". So there's some progress... I suppose. :idunno:

Sometimes when people say things like that, it's because they are trying to be polite.

Quote from: Benoist;372630Some name-calling for "some people", "somewhere in the OSR". Not naming names. Note though: before it was "the OSR this", "the OSR that". Now we have "some people within the OSR". So there's some progress... I suppose. :idunno:

There is that... baby steps and all.

Quote from: J Arcane;372633Sometimes when people say things like that, it's because they are trying to be polite.

Yeah, well they should cut that shit out.  It might be polite on other boards but here it's just plain cowardly.

Quote from: J Arcane;372633Sometimes when people say things like that, it's because they are trying to be polite.

And sometimes, that's because their claims don't have any legs to stand on.

Besides, they're trying to be polite? Here? To whom? You think I can't take someone telling me I'm some sort of museum asshole grognard? Have you noticed how many times AM tried? Pluh-ease.

Quote from: Sigmund;372632Completely clueless. If he really wanted the "Old School" feel, he wouldn't have had Teri Garr, he would have had the poster of Farah Fawcett... ya'all know the one I mean... ya know ya do.

That's all true. But you can't tell me there's anything wrong with a picture of Terri Garr.

I don't read the site much, mainly when it's been linked from an RPG site. I had no idea it was much of a big deal. But I'll bet the exposure will generate some interest and sales for S&W, and for OSR stuff in general, even if the initial motivation of the clickers is museum-curiosity.

Sorry to his fans defending him, but Gabe was clueless. If he really wanted to bring across an Old School feel to his side game, then he could have contacted any number of gamers that he has met at PAX or online and asked that person to DM a 0D&D session for his group (think about it, even Old Geezer would probably agree to do this if asked politely). Instead he took S&W and 0D&D, kitbashed them together and created what to Gabe was an Old School gaming experience for his group. Which, to me makes about as much sense as a high school freshman declaring that they fully understand the experience of Holocaust survivors just because they read The Diary of Anne Frank.

Because Gabe didn't use a retroclone or actual Old School game, he used what he thought best represented one (which he created). Garbage in, garbage out.

Isn't kitbashing your own rules to suit your group exactly what the OSR is supposedly all about?

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;372641That's all true. But you can't tell me there's anything wrong with a picture of Terri Garr.

I don't read the site much, mainly when it's been linked from an RPG site. I had no idea it was much of a big deal. But I'll bet the exposure will generate some interest and sales for S&W, and for OSR stuff in general, even if the initial motivation of the clickers is museum-curiosity.

Nope, nothing wrong with pictures of Teri Garr at all... they're just not "Old School". It's in the membership requirements. To be '70s era Old School one must have a troll doll, a poster of Farah Fawcett, bell-bottoms, a record player, and something depicting Evil Knievel.

Quote from: J Arcane;372644Isn't kitbashing your own rules to suit your group exactly what the OSR is supposedly all about?

Quote from: Gabe's Own Words from Your LinkEach of you has also been taken back to 1974 and Original Dungeons and Dragons.

Ancient mechanics for an ancient world.

Before you quit D&D forver let me tell you that we won't be using Original D&D exactly. Rather I've cooked up a system using original D&D systems along with some new ideas as well. The goal is to play a game with the soul of Original D&D, but significantly more humane to the player.

The model here is really Disney Land. Immagine yourself in adventure land near one of their western saloons. The facade is there, the details are right, it could almost pass for the real thing. But inside it is air conditioned and you can buy a Dr. Pepper. If they had a ride there called Original D&D, this would be it. The idea is to have a lot of fun without anyone getting hurt.

After a lot of research I ended up settling on a system called Swords and Wizardry. As a set of rules it draws heavily on OD&D but includes things like an ascending AC scale rather than THACO. I pulled what I liked from Swords and Wizardry and then grabbed a few things from OD&D as well. The end result was much like what I described in my email to the party. A sort of OD&D roller-coaster with all the twists and turns of old school gaming but minus the freedom and danger.

During the game I used the television behind me to display a slideshow of old artwork from the history of D&D. My players all started D&D with 4e like I did. This game was really about taking a look back and appreciating the roots of Dungeons and Dragons.

This wasn't a 0D&D experience, this is a 4E fan's skewed image of what a 0D&D experience was supposed to be.

Quote from: J Arcane;372644Isn't kitbashing your own rules to suit your group exactly what the OSR is supposedly all about?

That's where we should just dump the term "OSR". There are just guys interested in various sorts of old school games producing stuff for them, talking about them on blogs, etc.

If there is an "aim" to the "OSR" nebula of gamers, it's to enjoy vintage games, to keep playing them, to produce stuff for them, and to introduce those who do not know them, but want to, to their goodness. That's it.

OD&D, now, in particular, is IMO all about what you're talking about. Grabbing the game, owning it, making it your own. In that sense, Gabe does whatever the fuck he wants with it. We're talking about a guy playing a game, not producing some sort of supplement for it (in which case it would rise or fall based on its own merits and popularity). If he wants to play Ping Pong with "Men & Magic" for a paddle, who am I to stop him?

Quote from: J Arcane;372644Isn't kitbashing your own rules to suit your group exactly what the OSR is supposedly all about?

That's how I read it.  He made uninformed contact with a set of rules and shaped it to his liking without worrying about what was the true way.  In many ways, he was replicating the experience of thousands of groups in the 70s who did not have a body of gaming knowledge to draw upon.

It's sort of more old school than those who try to make OSR into historical reenactment of the 70s.

Quote from: Benoist;372648If he wants to play Ping Pong with "Men & Magic" for a paddle, who am I to stop him?

He might do just that given the ping pong PA story.

Quote from: Nicephorus;372649That's how I read it.  He made uninformed contact with a set of rules and shaped it to his liking without worrying about what was the true way.  In many ways, we was replicating the experience of thousands of groups in the 70s who did not have a body of gaming knowledge to draw upon.

It's sort of more old school than those who try to make OSR into historical reenactment of the 70s.

You have sort of a point, but the caveat is, first, that he was only running this system as a novelty, not a regular game. So, second, he seems to have sought to create what he thinks the experience might have sorta been like so he actually had the goal of trying to recreate an experience he's only heard/read about, rather than just playing a game with buds. Just so everyone knows, I'm not bashing this, in fact it sounds kinda cool injecting the retro flashback into his ongoing 4e experience that way. I hope they really enjoyed it, and really, kudos to S&W for providing a group of folks an evening of "retro" fun. I really do hope this leads to a huge jump in awareness and participation. I do not, however, see him as having played the game the way we did back then. But then, really, so what? If they had fun that's all that matters in the end.

Quote from: jeff37923;372642Which, to me makes about as much sense as a high school freshman declaring that they fully understand the experience of Holocaust survivors just because they read The Diary of Anne Frank.

:duh:Oy, that's a bit overboard isn't it?

Sigmund, thank you for remembering to bring up Evel Knievel. Let's also recall sissy bars & banana seats on bicycles, and Coleco handheld Electronic Quarterback.

Quote from: jeff37923;372642Which, to me makes about as much sense as a high school freshman declaring that they fully understand the experience of Holocaust survivors just because they read The Diary of Anne Frank.

LOL Over the top much? Nice back-handed Godwin, by the way, Jeff. :D

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;372657:duh:Oy, that's a bit overboard isn't it?

Sigmund, thank you for remembering to bring up Evel Knievel. Let's also recall sissy bars & banana seats on bicycles, and Coleco handheld Electronic Quarterback.

Oh yes. While not strictly required for Old School membership, banana seats and Coleco football (holy crap did we used to annoy our teachers with these) will advance one towards admittance to the Inner Circle of Old Schoolness. Sissy bars, however, are just for sissies. To really be cool Old School one has to get drop bar road bikes and turn the bars upside-down so that one can sit more upright while simultaneously placing oneself in danger of serious injury, then go riding around in jeans.

Quote from: Sigmund;372632Completely clueless. If he really wanted the "Old School" feel, he wouldn't have had Teri Garr, he would have had the poster of Farah Fawcett... ya'all know the one I mean... ya know ya do.

No, he would have Cheryl Tiegs.

(Cue 70s poster icons edition war.)

Sorry guys, Penny Arcade is big, real big.  As Jrients said, their links crash websites they have so many readers.  Video and console gaming is a billion dollar industry and PA is one of the few video game sites that spends a fair amount of time talking about table-top gaming.  For them to specifically mention the OSR and Swords and Wizardry is huge.

The thing nobody really talked about in that whole Pornstar thing was that traffic on Escapist will lead to some traffic on Zak's blog, which will lead to traffic on other people's blogs.

Within a fairly short period of time, video gamers have a chance to read about this OSR thing from two different video gaming sites, two of the most popular out there.

In the 21st century, with this new-fangled thing called teh intarwebz, yes that is a very good thing indeed.

PA not a household name?  I don't know, I'd think you'd have a pretty hard fucking time finding high school or college kids who both had thumbs and didn't know what Penny Arcade was.

Quote from: Benoist;372628Really, it's awesome to get the exposure, but then again, I'm not going to touch myself over it

As long as you possess that avatar, you are forbidden from touching yourself or ever mentioning it again.

I don't like or read web comics for the most part - and I've heard of Penny Aracade.  (Even seen a few of them from time to time)


- Ed C.

I've got to agree with J even if he is being a spergelord over it.

For the Internet, Penny Arcade is HUGE.  

Is this gonna lead to massive sales and site hits?  Probably not as most people in fact do NOT want to know more.  About anything.  Its what keeps corporations and politicians in power after all.

But it should lead to MORE PEOPLE which can only be a good thing.

Now this is the Internet so saying nobody knows about PA is kind of bullshit.  Most people don't know much about the Internet.

I have played with ONE person who ever read or even knew of RPGnet before I mentioned it to them, and those I did tell still don't give a shit.  And I have played a lot of people over the years.

(Its why Pundy's fear of a Forge planet is unjustified.  Nobody in the world at large gives a shit what idiots online do unless its connected to Farmville.)

Look at how popular something might be online, then how it is in the real world.  They usually don't intersect at all.

After reading a lot of the comments on the blogosphere, I think it's kind of funny how some people are getting annoyed/offended by some of the wording in Gabe's post, as if he's passing a judgment on something he doesn't understand, while at the same time passing judgment about Penny-Arcade (and the people behind it), which is something a lot of old grognards don't understand.

I mean, once you see something like "well they both started with 4e", you know you're not going to get any real discourse, because they don't know the background behind the people (and their gaming habits) writing these things.  There's no context -- it's just a big disconnect.

I don't know shit about PA.  Until the other day, I've never been to their site.  All I ever heard about them was that Wesley Crusher plays D&D with them or something, so I thought they were a publicity arm of WOTC.  

That being said, the fact that they are huge and can give exposure to S&W is great.  I don't have any problem with how the exposure comes.  

The thing that struck me as odd/wrong, was that he obviously wanted to give an old school OD&D experience to his group, and he knew danger and freedom were part of it. He knew that because he explicitly states that he removed those elements from the game.  Yet he still feels his did his group a good service by showing them a game that he classified as OD&D, even though he knew he removed 2 main OD&D elements from it?

I feel bad for the guys he played with, thinking they got to each chocolate cake when it was really vanilla.

It seems to me that the fact that Gabe felt he had to soften up an OSR/OD&D game for a bunch of candyassed 4e'ers tells me that he knows more about old-school gaming that many are willing to admit...

(this is a winky-smiley post...)

Joethelawyer, I've got the National Vanilla Council on line 1 for you.  Something about their product being a legitimate flavor alternative.

Anyway, I asked Matt Finch is S&W.com had any more traffic since Wednesday and he said he's got roughly triple his usual daily hits.  I call that a win.

By softened, I think he meant "You're not going to lose a character or gear", and the reason for this is pretty solid -- he wanted to give them exposure to "how it could be" without derailing the 4e campaign, since this was a one-shot.  Just as he said -- similar to a war reenactment.  You can see what it was like, even if you're not experiencing it "firsthand."

If he had been running a campaign, I could see the reasoning behind criticizing his attempts at emulating "old-school", but this was just a one-shot, for fun, experiment that was intended to have no long-term consequences on his 4e campaign.

Really, in a way, he wasn't trying to so much play OD&D straight as he was using it was a starting point for his own idea of a fun evening.

Quote from: StormBringer;372593On the other hand, if they were to make role playing sessions a bit more prominent in the strip itself, I wouldn't be as neutral about the mention.

Missed this the first go around.

They have, in the past, made it the prime subject.  There was a 1-2 week long continuity where it covered Gabe's transformation into an RPG player, and again another week-long strip about him starting out as a DM, all accompanied by relevant blog-posts.

They also link to Wizards anytime they do anything with WotC/4e (which is usually accompanied by one of their D&D themed comics), and Mike likes to post about his campaign once in a while, complete with pictures of sessions and an outline of how he executed his ideas.

In the past these things weren't very prominent, and the only mention of tabletop you'd get is if Jerry was talking about Baldur's Gate or something, but since Mike took up DMing, tabletop has become a very visible side-dish for the whole of PA.

Quote from: jrients;372700Joethelawyer, I've got the National Vanilla Council on line 1 for you.  Something about their product being a legitimate flavor alternative.

Anyway, I asked Matt Finch is S&W.com had any more traffic since Wednesday and he said he's got roughly triple his usual daily hits.  I call that a win.

It's a damn good start.  Did he track them back to PA exclusively?  If  folks are reading re-posts from other pages, it might be a good idea to hit those sites and talk it up if at all possible.  

Quote from: Peregrin;372722In the past these things weren't very prominent, and the only mention of tabletop you'd get is if Jerry was talking about Baldur's Gate or something, but since Mike took up DMing, tabletop has become a very visible side-dish for the whole of PA.

I think that will probably do more to generate interest in role playing than a single mention of a specific game, but it's good to hear it has increased the traffic for S&W.

Quote from: Nicephorus;372649That's how I read it.  He made uninformed contact with a set of rules and shaped it to his liking without worrying about what was the true way.  In many ways, he was replicating the experience of thousands of groups in the 70s who did not have a body of gaming knowledge to draw upon.

It's sort of more old school than those who try to make OSR into historical reenactment of the 70s.

Fucking word, man.

He doesn't owe anything to anyone, let alone to some ideological purity or party line about what a handful of fucking bloggers and forumites claim the 70s were "really" about.

He's got a set of rules in front of him, that he's gleefully done whatever he likes with to make it fun for his group.

How the fuck do any of you OSR people in this thread know that there weren't others that played this way?  The dreaded "story" focus in gaming didn't rise out of nothing, for instance, yet don't you dare mention it might've occurred in D&D ever, unless it was in the evil 2e.

A dude found the game, and decided to have some fun with it, and then posted about it on his really popular website.  If that happened with a game I liked enough to want to see succeed, I'd be ecstatic.  

Instead it's all about how "Oh, but that site isn't that relevant, I've never read it" and "He's not playing it right".  Playing it right according to whom?  Some amateur pundit with a "primer" declaring what is and isn't old school?  The jackass who wrote that hopelessly presumptuous "how to play old school" thing in the new S&W white box?  

Yet again, you people, and by people I mean every one of you in this fucking thread who's knocked his game, James M. and the rest of the bloggers who're going after it, the smartass comments from the people in the RPG Haven thread I was reading earlier, all of you, have fucking proved that the "OSR" is once again all about some invented vision of ideological purity, and has fucking nothing to do with gaming or enjoying games.

I would like to personally request from now on, that the "OSR" be given the same status as "The Forge", because it's not a fucking RPG, it's a fucking religion.

Quote from: J Arcane;372729Fucking word, man.

He doesn't owe anything to anyone, let alone to some ideological purity or party line about what a handful of fucking bloggers and forumites claim the 70s were "really" about.

He's got a set of rules in front of him, that he's gleefully done whatever he likes with to make it fun for his group.

How the fuck do any of you OSR people in this thread know that there weren't others that played this way?  The dreaded "story" focus in gaming didn't rise out of nothing, for instance, yet don't you dare mention it might've occurred in D&D ever, unless it was in the evil 2e.

A dude found the game, and decided to have some fun with it, and then posted about it on his really popular website.  If that happened with a game I liked enough to want to see succeed, I'd be ecstatic.  

Instead it's all about how "Oh, but that site isn't that relevant, I've never read it" and "He's not playing it right".  Playing it right according to whom?  Some amateur pundit with a "primer" declaring what is and isn't old school?  The jackass who wrote that hopelessly presumptuous "how to play old school" thing in the new S&W white box?  

Yet again, you people, and by people I mean every one of you in this fucking thread who's knocked his game, James M. and the rest of the bloggers who're going after it, the smartass comments from the people in the RPG Haven thread I was reading earlier, all of you, have fucking proved that the "OSR" is once again all about some invented vision of ideological purity, and has fucking nothing to do with gaming or enjoying games.

I would like to personally request from now on, that the "OSR" be given the same status as "The Forge", because it's not a fucking RPG, it's a fucking religion.

In all fairness, J, there were several of us who play the OS games that agreed with you. If you read the Haven thread you also know I agree with your assessment of the "Primer."

Quote from: J Arcane;372729Yet again, you people, and by people I mean every one of you in this fucking thread who's knocked his game, James M. and the rest of the bloggers who're going after it, the smartass comments from the people in the RPG Haven thread I was reading earlier, all of you, have fucking proved that the "OSR" is once again all about some invented vision of ideological purity, and has fucking nothing to do with gaming or enjoying games.

Then I guess you proved the point you set out to as the sole reason for starting this thread.  Except, you had to drag in half the internet to do so.  Next time, just start an "OSR sucks" thread and be done with it.

Quote from: StormBringer;372731Then I guess you proved the point you set out to as the sole reason for starting this thread.  Except, you had to drag in half the internet to do so.  Next time, just start an "OSR sucks" thread and be done with it.

Actually, it wasn't the point I created this thread with.  I honestly and completely expected people to be pleasantly surprised about the thing, to be happy with the exposure.  

I personally thought it was a neat post, as while I'm not especially a fan of OD&D, I always think it's neat when Gabe or Tycho throws a nod to a more old school approach.  The contrast between the young turk Gabe's forays into learnign RPGs with Tycho's hardcore old school roots has led to some fascinating conversations and really funny strips in the past.  I've personally posted some of Tycho's previous posts talking about the clash between his old school sentiments and 4e's attempted new wave.

I really, truly, honestly swear in my heart of hearts that I had no intentions other than posting a thing that I thought neat, and honestly was surprised by the hostility towards his post.  I just saw it on Evotab and thought, "Hey, I bet theRPGsite would like this."

I shouldn't have, but I did expect better.

Quote from: J Arcane;372729Yet again, you people, and by people I mean every one of you in this fucking thread who's knocked his game, James M. and the rest of the bloggers who're going after it, the smartass comments from the people in the RPG Haven thread I was reading earlier, all of you, have fucking proved that the "OSR" is once again all about some invented vision of ideological purity, and has fucking nothing to do with gaming or enjoying games.

I would like to personally request from now on, that the "OSR" be given the same status as "The Forge", because it's not a fucking RPG, it's a fucking religion.

I'm now absolutely convinced you want to get offended. You want to find something objectionable with the OSR, for whatever twisted reason you came up with ages ago when we first discussed vintage games here on these boards. Maybe because someone, anyone, disagreed with you as you were pissing all over someone else's opinion. You pounce, you pounce, and then finally, when someone tells you to fuck off, and you're not having your way, you're going all crazy on people.

Get a grip on yourself, man. This is fucking ridiculous.

Quote from: Aos;372730In all fairness, J, there were several of us who play the OS games that agreed with you. If you read the Haven thread you also know I agree with your assessment of the "Primer."

Yes, I did see that you were quite down on the attitude.  At least there's someone still about who isn't a complete pillock.

The very idea of a special book to tell people how to play a particular game is ridiculous.  That's Forge-talk right there, and yet almost no one sees the irony.

This site was created in it's present form in large part to make a space where such dogmatic bullshit wouldn't be tolerated or accepted.  

Instead, it just changed brands sometime in the past year or so.

Are you drunk right now, J.? Honest question.

Quote from: Benoist;372735I'm now absolutely convinced you want to get offended. You want to find something objectionable with the OSR, for whatever twisted reason you came up with ages ago when we first discussed vintage games here on these boards. Maybe because someone, anyone, disagreed with you as you were pissing all over someone else's opinion. You pounce, you pounce, and then finally, when someone tells you to fuck off, and you're not having your way, you're going all crazy on people.

Get a grip on yourself, man. This is fucking ridiculous.

Stop being hypocritical assholes, I'll stop calling you hypocritical assholes.

That's the way this site works.  Don't fucking like it?  Leave.  

You may as well ask Roger Ebert to stop being mean to bad films.  Never going to happen, so get the fuck over it, and stop being idiots.

Quote from: Benoist;372737Are you drunk right now, J.? Honest question.

I haven't been able to drink in like 2 years.  Not that it's the slightest bit your fucking business.

Quote from: J Arcane;372738Stop being hypocritical assholes, I'll stop calling you hypocritical assholes.

That's the way this site works.  Don't fucking like it?  Leave.  

You may as well ask Roger Ebert to stop being mean to bad films.  Never going to happen, so get the fuck over it, and stop being idiots.

You don't like people not having the same opinions than yourself? Liking the iPad? Disliking Cellphones? Happening to have an actual opinion on the game you don't even fucking know?

Don't like it? You can leave.

Go fuck yourself.

Quote from: J Arcane;372729He doesn't owe anything to anyone, let alone to some ideological purity or party line about what a handful of fucking bloggers and forumites claim the 70s were "really" about.

You do understand that your poutrage is directed at exactly zero responses to your original post, right?

Neither Benoist nor I, who appear to be the mains targets of your bile, never said anything about him doing it wrong. I said I couldn't make head nor tails of what he was trying to describe, and both of us asked who this guy was and why we should care. The latter you've made abundantly clear, so again, woo-hoo, go Penny Arcade, go OSR, high fives and bong hits all around.

But who here as said anything - ANYTHING AT ALL - about what OD&D is really about? Who said anything - ANYTHING AT ALL - about "ideological purity or party line?"

If I was looking to criticize his old schoolness, I would've bored in on his throwing in a reference to THAC0 which had nothing to do with anything else he talked about. But I didn't, because I don't care. In fact, I made no judgements about his choice of games or his approach to playing them - which I think was pretty clever, actually - only his ability to convey a thought in English. The sentence I quoted sounds like it came from my speech-impaired three-year-old son.

You have built an enormous strawman out of wisps of dried grasss, doused it with gasoline, and tossed a road flare on it, which I think says more about you than it does about anything written in this thread.

J, I tend to agree with you far more often than not on these boards, but on this one, I have to say, with all the love and respect in my heart, go fuck yourself with a claw hammer, you fucking prima donna.

Quote from: The Shaman;372741But who here as said anything - ANYTHING AT ALL - about what OD&D is really about? Who said anything - ANYTHING AT ALL - about "ideological purity or party line?"

Hey now, I did take Gabe's methodology to task when he claimed that he was going to have his game group experience 1974 0D&D and instead created some kitbashed ruleset for them that wasn't.

Quote from: jeff37923;372743Hey now, I did take Gabe's methodology to task when he claimed that he was going to have his game group experience 1974 0D&D and instead created some kitbashed ruleset for them that wasn't.

And I actually posted the reverse... in answer to J (!):

Quote from: Benoist;372648

Quote from: J Arcane;372644Isn't kitbashing your own rules to suit your group exactly what the OSR is supposedly all about?

That's where we should just dump the term "OSR". There are just guys interested in various sorts of old school games producing stuff for them, talking about them on blogs, etc.

If there is an "aim" to the "OSR" nebula of gamers, it's to enjoy vintage games, to keep playing them, to produce stuff for them, and to introduce those who do not know them, but want to, to their goodness. That's it.

OD&D, now, in particular, is IMO all about what you're talking about. Grabbing the game, owning it, making it your own. In that sense, Gabe does whatever the fuck he wants with it. We're talking about a guy playing a game, not producing some sort of supplement for it (in which case it would rise or fall based on its own merits and popularity). If he wants to play Ping Pong with "Men & Magic" for a paddle, who am I to stop him?

I mean. What the fuck is J smoking, exactly?

DM 101 (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/3/29/) Gabe finally gets it. :D

Tycho gives some Old School advice (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/11/2/)

Quote from: J Arcane;372475So once again, it's more about the ideological purity than about the actual games or people playing them in whatever way they have the most fun.

I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.

I take back every bad thing I've ever said or scribbled on the wall of a public restroom about you.

Quote from: Benoist;372744And I actually posted the reverse... in answer to J (!):


I mean. What the fuck is J smoking, exactly?

So you're just now realizing you're not the only person in this thread?

Has the reading comprehension level on this site really fallen so far as it seems to have recently?

Quote from: J Arcane;372748So you're just now realizing you're not the only person in this thread?

Has the reading comprehension level on this site really fallen so far as it seems to have recently?

It's not my fault if you can't write plain fucking English to save your life, God dammit!

Quote from: J Arcane;372729Yet again, you people, and by people I mean every one of you in this fucking thread who's knocked his game, James M. and the rest of the bloggers who're going after it, the smartass comments from the people in the RPG Haven thread I was reading earlier, all of you, have fucking proved that the "OSR" is once again all about some invented vision of ideological purity, and has fucking nothing to do with gaming or enjoying games.

I mean, seriously: could you paint with broader brush than this, here? And you're "surprised" people "misunderstand" afterwards?

I'm not the one who's misunderstanding, here. I'm not the one who takes humor for insults, and just can't cope with people who aren't jumping up and down at the idea that some guy making a comic on the web actually wrote something about OD&D on his blog.

It's cool that a couple million or more people will get to know S&W because of it. Really is. But that's not what the clusterfuck is about, here: it's about you getting all crazy because -SHOCK- people actually don't exactly react how you expected them to, and actually happen to have differing opinions than yours. OH MY GOD. What. a. Shocker!

I mean. Seriously?

Quote from: jeff37923;372743Hey now, I did take Gabe's methodology to task when he claimed that he was going to have his game group experience 1974 0D&D and instead created some kitbashed ruleset for them that wasn't.

*goes back and rereads thread*

Hmmm. So you did.

In which case, j, I agree kitbashing is very much in the spirit of the original rules and old-school play, and I can't tell what kind of experience he provided for his players from his half-arsed description.

So you're wrong, too. Have a claw hammer. With love. ;)

Tycho agrees with Pundit on 4e nomenclature (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/3/20/) A classic.

The definition of "Anti-Big Purple". (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/3/4/)

Quote from: CRKrueger;372752Tycho agrees with Pundit on 4e nomenclature (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/3/20/) A classic.

That is one my favorite strips from PA.

Quote from: CRKrueger;372752Tycho agrees with Pundit on 4e nomenclature (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/3/20/) A classic.

Oh. I read that one! It was hilarious. :D

Quote from: CRKrueger;372752Tycho agrees with Pundit on 4e nomenclature (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/3/20/) A classic.

The definition of "Anti-Big Purple". (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/3/4/)

Honestly, I think their strips on D&D have been some of the best damn pieces in recent memory there.

Quote from: J Arcane;372756Honestly, I think their strips on D&D have been some of the best damn pieces in recent memory there.

Some of them are real funny. I agree.

Quote from: Peregrin;372722In the past these things weren't very prominent, and the only mention of tabletop you'd get is if Jerry was talking about Baldur's Gate or something, but since Mike took up DMing, tabletop has become a very visible side-dish for the whole of PA.

Quote from: CRKrueger;372752Tycho agrees with Pundit on 4e nomenclature (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/3/20/) A classic.

The definition of "Anti-Big Purple". (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/3/4/)

Quote from: J Arcane;372756Honestly, I think their strips on D&D have been some of the best damn pieces in recent memory there.

I stand corrected.  I am not the biggest video game fan out there, so I don't often read PA (I prefer Ctrl+Alt+Del for the more general humour).  If they are putting out more RPG related strips, that will likely lure more of their fans into the hobby, which is great.

Quote from: jrients;372700Joethelawyer, I've got the National Vanilla Council on line 1 for you.  Something about their product being a legitimate flavor alternative.

Anyway, I asked Matt Finch is S&W.com had any more traffic since Wednesday and he said he's got roughly triple his usual daily hits.  I call that a win.

Jrients got it right.

Quote from: J Arcane;372465The most popular gaming related website on the fucking internet just name dropped, and linked, OD&D and Swords and Wizardry.

If you weren't so fucking clueless about the real world, you should be ecstatic.

I only read up to here, where J Arcane won the thread.

Did it get better?

Quote from: FASERIP;372665No, he would have Cheryl Tiegs.

(Cue 70s poster icons edition war.)

No sorry. Cheryl Tiegs posters, while certainly nice, are purely optional, only the Farah poster is core '70s Old School.

Quote from: jrients;372700Anyway, I asked Matt Finch is S&W.com had any more traffic since Wednesday and he said he's got roughly triple his usual daily hits.  I call that a win.

Well good for him, really. Not quite the windfall it seems was being predicted here in this thread, but still very damn cool anyway, and substantial enough to be a win for sure. I'm willing to stand corrected and say go PA and go S&W both.

Quote from: J Arcane;372729Fucking word, man.

He doesn't owe anything to anyone, let alone to some ideological purity or party line about what a handful of fucking bloggers and forumites claim the 70s were "really" about.

He's got a set of rules in front of him, that he's gleefully done whatever he likes with to make it fun for his group.

How the fuck do any of you OSR people in this thread know that there weren't others that played this way?  The dreaded "story" focus in gaming didn't rise out of nothing, for instance, yet don't you dare mention it might've occurred in D&D ever, unless it was in the evil 2e.

A dude found the game, and decided to have some fun with it, and then posted about it on his really popular website.  If that happened with a game I liked enough to want to see succeed, I'd be ecstatic.  

Instead it's all about how "Oh, but that site isn't that relevant, I've never read it" and "He's not playing it right".  Playing it right according to whom?  Some amateur pundit with a "primer" declaring what is and isn't old school?  The jackass who wrote that hopelessly presumptuous "how to play old school" thing in the new S&W white box?  

Yet again, you people, and by people I mean every one of you in this fucking thread who's knocked his game, James M. and the rest of the bloggers who're going after it, the smartass comments from the people in the RPG Haven thread I was reading earlier, all of you, have fucking proved that the "OSR" is once again all about some invented vision of ideological purity, and has fucking nothing to do with gaming or enjoying games.

I would like to personally request from now on, that the "OSR" be given the same status as "The Forge", because it's not a fucking RPG, it's a fucking religion.

You were right, to a point. The exposure increased traffic on the S&W site. That isn't a bad thing. Good job, you called it, sort of :hatsoff:

Now, get the fuck over yourself. You're getting worse than the Pundit with this silly ass rant. Honestly, why the fuck do you care what the "OSR" is doing?

Quote from: J Arcane;372732Actually, it wasn't the point I created this thread with.  I honestly and completely expected people to be pleasantly surprised about the thing, to be happy with the exposure.  

I personally thought it was a neat post, as while I'm not especially a fan of OD&D, I always think it's neat when Gabe or Tycho throws a nod to a more old school approach.  The contrast between the young turk Gabe's forays into learnign RPGs with Tycho's hardcore old school roots has led to some fascinating conversations and really funny strips in the past.  I've personally posted some of Tycho's previous posts talking about the clash between his old school sentiments and 4e's attempted new wave.

I really, truly, honestly swear in my heart of hearts that I had no intentions other than posting a thing that I thought neat, and honestly was surprised by the hostility towards his post.  I just saw it on Evotab and thought, "Hey, I bet theRPGsite would like this."

I shouldn't have, but I did expect better.

Actually, in the context of your expectations, I can truly understand how lukewarm responses to your thread kinda put ya out.  While I wouldn't characterize the responses here as hostile, at least from most of us (you got pretty hostile almost immediately), I'd say we just didn't expect much of a change, and to be perfectly honest, even a tripling in web traffic isn't really that big of a deal given the size of PA's audience. It's still good though, so good for them. I still feel you need to lighten up, this shit ain't a big deal.

Quote from: CRKrueger;372745DM 101 (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/3/29/) Gabe finally gets it. :D

Tycho gives some Old School advice (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/11/2/)

Those rock :D

Quote from: CRKrueger;372752Tycho agrees with Pundit on 4e nomenclature (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/3/20/) A classic.

The definition of "Anti-Big Purple". (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/3/4/)

Those both rock too. They're not OotS, but they're pretty funny :)

Quote from: CRKrueger;372752Tycho agrees with Pundit on 4e nomenclature (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/3/20/)

Well of course he does, as a character of distinction. Good for him.

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