Quote from: Omega on January 31, 2022, 07:18:52 PM

Quote from: Pat on January 31, 2022, 12:55:01 PM

Quote from: Omega on January 31, 2022, 02:29:16 AM

1: This was actually a thing for BX and 2e D&D. BX had a Dragon article introducing a "create your own class/race" system that was actually not bad. 2e had in the core books a watered down and more convoluted version. And later Skills & Powers opened up options as well. Think the Complete Handbook for Wizards did too. If not there then there was at least one ckass kit that opened up the ability to wear leather or chain I believe. Not positive though. Been a few decades.

The create your own class system in Dragon was badly broken. Among other things, it tried to argue that magic-users were underpowered and needed a boost.

er? Where? I glanced through it and saw no such claims of MUs being underpowered. There is a extra spell progression table that gives a few more spells but no mention of why other than the option for more at a cost? More likely what we are seeing is the authors attempt to combine the clerics and MU's progressions somehow.

In X a MU will have a level 11 spread as follows. 4 3 3 3 2 1
While the VIa from Dragon has a spread of thus. 4 4 3 3 3 2
And in comparison the O, AD&D and 2e has this. 4 4 4 3 3 -
3e has a sort of mix of O and BX in an odd sort. 4 4 4 3 2 1
4e is its own thing.
And 5e bemusingly enough goes back to BX with. 4 3 3 3 2 1

Rather interesting the permutations just this alone has undergone.

Aren't you forgetting something, Omega?

Namely, the extra spells bonus from 3E.

Also, it's pretty well documented that during the 3E overhaul Monte Cook was hell bent on buffing casters and nerfing martial classes.

Quote from: jhkim on January 31, 2022, 11:58:26 AM

Quote from: Omega on January 31, 2022, 02:42:00 AM
5e's writing has been all over the place. Overall ok. But around the advent of Essentials things started a slow decline. Then around Candlekeep a sharper decline. But you could say that of TSR too. Their product and modules were all over the place. Especially during 2e as they began to struggle with internal problems after ousting Gygax.

I agree that the writing is all over the place -- but I liked Candlekeep Mysteries more than the other adventures I'm familiar with - Lost Mine of Phandelver, Princes of the Apocalypse and Out of the Abyss. So I don't think I see the same pattern as you. I like the core rules, but I thought the initial adventures were mediocre at best.

On the rules front: I thought the Sword Coast Guide was decent, and Volo's Guide was OK, but Tasha's was terrible. Fizban's seems mediocre so far - but I haven't read it through yet. I do feel like the rules quality is decreasing, but that has been true for most games as they enter the "splat book" phase of releases.

Fair enough, like I said it's a matter of opinion. The first two Tiamat adventures were awful. I liked Apoc, SKT, Saltmarsh, and the rules/monster tomes, but likewise thought Tasha's and everything since was utter trash. Anyhow, I've simply stopped being interested in WoTC as a brand.

Quote from: Jamesbeadle on February 01, 2022, 02:18:54 PM

Quote from: jhkim on January 31, 2022, 11:58:26 AM
I agree that the writing is all over the place -- but I liked Candlekeep Mysteries more than the other adventures I'm familiar with - Lost Mine of Phandelver, Princes of the Apocalypse and Out of the Abyss. So I don't think I see the same pattern as you. I like the core rules, but I thought the initial adventures were mediocre at best.

On the rules front: I thought the Sword Coast Guide was decent, and Volo's Guide was OK, but Tasha's was terrible. Fizban's seems mediocre so far - but I haven't read it through yet. I do feel like the rules quality is decreasing, but that has been true for most games as they enter the "splat book" phase of releases.

Fair enough, like I said it's a matter of opinion. The first two Tiamat adventures were awful. I liked Apoc, SKT, Saltmarsh, and the rules/monster tomes, but likewise thought Tasha's and everything since was utter trash. Anyhow, I've simply stopped being interested in WoTC as a brand.

Whoops. Sorry, I mixed up modules there. I played through Hoard of the Dragon Queen - which I thought was awful, as you did. I only briefly got a look at Princes of the Apocalypse, so no opinion there. I don't know Storm King's Thunder or Saltmarsh.

I also didn't like Tasha's - and I'm curious which books you got after Tasha's that gave you the bad impression. For me, that's Candlekeep, Fizban's, and Van Richten's. As I said, I liked Candlekeep Mysteries - I'm unimpressed so far with Fizban's, and I thought Van Richten's was fair - my main issue being that I dislike the demi-plane aspect of the setting in the first place, which isn't about that book in particular.

Quote from: HappyDaze on January 31, 2022, 01:05:29 PM
I thought that the rules from the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide were terrible, especially the cantrips (particularly booming blade) that got recommended for every power build and the racial variants (like winged tiefling).

Interesting. I never saw Booming Blade in play. Looking at it, it seems OK for its intended purpose (bladesingers and pact of blade) - but I could see it being combined with other options to be overpowered. But I think power builds using mix of optional components are best dealt with by disallowing them as GM, rather than trying to handle all possible combinations.

In Sword Coast - I liked the Oath of the Crown, and I particularly liked mastermind and swashbuckler for rogue.

I got the old books, dice, and paper's cheap.

So I don't give a rat's arse what wotc or hasbroken wants to do, they ain't getting my money.

Maybe I will get something from new TSR, just so they know SOMEONE cares and Ernie don't end up like those drunks at the pub.

Quote from: Redwanderer on February 01, 2022, 04:45:41 PM
I got the old books, dice, and paper's cheap.

So I don't give a rat's arse what wotc or hasbroken wants to do, they ain't getting my money.

Maybe I will get something from new TSR, just so they know SOMEONE cares and Ernie don't end up like those drunks at the pub.

  I do not think you can buy enough stuff to keep Ernie from hitting the skids.

The TSR stuff is not showing off well.

We have this

but



Supposedly it is a 5th Ed product.
Then there is this

So I'm not up to date on the new TSR and new products they are making. I recall that Gygax's kid was involved in some trade IP dispute with another company over it but am fuzzy on the details. Is Star Frontiers related to this? Was there a Kickstarter or something?

The nu TSR (3) is doing Star Frontiers but it seems they own the name and not the IP. They are going to give a copy away to anyone who buys a $100 ticket to play at TSR CON

https://www.facebook.com/TSRCON/

Quote from: palaeomerus on February 01, 2022, 06:36:36 PM
The nu TSR (3) is doing Star Frontiers but it seems they own the name and not the IP. They are going to give a copy away to anyone who buys a $100 ticket to play at TSR CON

https://www.facebook.com/TSRCON/

So TSR con, this is a new convention they are promoting or something that's been around a while? Is the idea above that they wont really have books to hand out, or that the professional looking books in the fake stack will not be the game that is being promised?

Quote from: Jamesbeadle on February 01, 2022, 06:40:19 PM

Quote from: palaeomerus on February 01, 2022, 06:36:36 PM
The nu TSR (3) is doing Star Frontiers but it seems they own the name and not the IP. They are going to give a copy away to anyone who buys a $100 ticket to play at TSR CON

https://www.facebook.com/TSRCON/

So TSR con, this is a new convention they are promoting or something that's been around a while? Is the idea above that they wont really have books to hand out, or that the professional looking books in the fake stack will not be the game that is being promised?

TSR CON is a new convention, to be held for the first time in Lake Geneva in March 2022 -- which is on the same weekend in Lake Geneva as Gary Con - which *is* an established game convention that has been running since 2009. TSR CON is sponsored by the new TSR -- which was founded in summer 2021. There have been *three* TSRs:

(1) the original founded by Gary Gygax
(2) a revival founded in 2011 by Jayson Elliot when the trademark expired
(3) a second revival founded in summer 2021 by Ernie Gygax, Justin LaNasa and Stephen Dinehart

cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TSR,_Inc.#Subsequent_trademark_usage

They plan to have books, I'm sure but they chose to simulate a pile of books in the mean time. The thing is though...will they have books by then?  Real ones? No idea. I'm sure they plan to have real books. But will it happen?

Quote from: jhkim on February 01, 2022, 07:12:43 PM

Quote from: Jamesbeadle on February 01, 2022, 06:40:19 PM

Quote from: palaeomerus on February 01, 2022, 06:36:36 PM
The nu TSR (3) is doing Star Frontiers but it seems they own the name and not the IP. They are going to give a copy away to anyone who buys a $100 ticket to play at TSR CON

https://www.facebook.com/TSRCON/

So TSR con, this is a new convention they are promoting or something that's been around a while? Is the idea above that they wont really have books to hand out, or that the professional looking books in the fake stack will not be the game that is being promised?

TSR CON is a new convention, to be held for the first time in Lake Geneva in March 2022 -- which is on the same weekend in Lake Geneva as Gary Con - which *is* an established game convention that has been running since 2009. TSR CON is sponsored by the new TSR -- which was founded in summer 2021. There have been *three* TSRs:

(1) the original founded by Gary Gygax
(2) a revival founded in 2011 by Jayson Elliot when the trademark expired
(3) a second revival founded in summer 2021 by Ernie Gygax, Justin LaNasa and Stephen Dinehart

cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TSR,_Inc.#Subsequent_trademark_usage

Ok, thanks for bringing me up to speed.

Quote from: palaeomerus on February 01, 2022, 07:39:07 PM
They plan to have books, I'm sure but they chose to simulate a pile of books in the mean time. The thing is though...will they have books by then?  Real ones? No idea. I'm sure they plan to have real books. But will it happen?

Hey, with the news Far West might actually come out this side of doomsday, then the cracks in reality ã̻͚ͬͅr̼̺̩ͬ͂e̼̮̓̏͊ ͈̍ͭ͌̋ẅ̭̠́̽͊í͖͚͆̅d̘̐̏̆̓e̗̲͔͋̑n̍̅̔͌͐ị̱̹̀̔n̝͔̘̓̊g͔̀ͦ̇ͧ,̯̼ͨͣͥ ̗ͪͪ̋͋ã̌̐̊̉n̳̈́̅̔̑d̯̞̗͗͛ ̰̪̫ͩ̽A̞̲͒̎̾n̤̹̞̭ͤy͎̙͛̌̚t̖̰ͧ̾͆h̤̹ͥͤ̂i͍͊́͒ͣn͚͈̜ͭͥg̭͗͌̉̐ ̝͈̺̠͋c̺̺̙̋ͫa̦̪̋̀͐N̜ͤ̑̂̃ ̥̘͚͗ͭH̫͇̜̳̏A̘̞̯̮ͬp̣̫͕͛͐p̰̟͓͊ͣÈ͔̭̞̐Ǹ̼̮̮̓.͓ͬ̌͂ͩ

İ̘̲͕̙T͈ͧͧ͑ͯ ̞̮ͭ̍͒C̣̯ͩͩ͊O̺̤̫ͩͮṀ̳̼̽̓E̦̥͗̾ͪS̟̟͂ͮ͆

Cue King Crimson's "Epitaph"

Quote from: palaeomerus on February 01, 2022, 05:19:16 PM
The TSR stuff is not showing off well.

We have this

Fake stack of books or not, the art looks more like Metamorphosis Alpha than Star Frontiers.