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Which are the best you've played ?

Do you prefer pre-scribed spell lists instead ?

I prefer freeform.

-clash

All my games have both. I prefer free form myself but accept that many folks like spell lists. Its like building powered armor in sci-fi games, some people live for it, other just want what's on the rack.

You can look over the Iridium Free Form via our free download here (http://www.hinterwelt.com/iscr-ref.html).

Bill

I've never encountered a freeform magic system that I seriously liked - most demand too much ad-hoc decisions and are too fuzzy ruled to be used all the time in the game.

I still like most the Shadowrun approach, which is mostly a compromise: Pre-defined spells for quick and clear-cut usage, and a spell customization/build system that can be used during downtime to get your custom spells. The last one demands to go through a lot of steps and needs some handwaving where examples are missing (weather control etc.), but it works without much erring and still allows access to personalized spells.

Quote from: SkyrockI've never encountered a freeform magic system that I seriously liked - most demand too much ad-hoc decisions and are too fuzzy ruled to be used all the time in the game.

Same here. I've seen it devolve into the magic-using characters dominating a game session as they work out the details of what they want to accomplish. I'm sure there is a way for such a system to work, I just haven't encountered it yet. And yes, I will check out the links provided by our esteemed resident designers ;)

Quote from: ColonelHardissonSame here. I've seen it devolve into the magic-using characters dominating a game session as they work out the details of what they want to accomplish.

This is what I liked about first edition Mage, IMO one of the best freeform magic systems out there. I think Heroquest has also got a freeform magic system, but I'm still grappling with the system, so I can't really comment.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RThis is what I liked about first edition Mage, IMO one of the best freeform magic systems out there. I think Heroquest has also got a freeform magic system, but I'm still grappling with the system, so I can't really comment.

Regards,
David R

Can you give me a brief description of either of them?

Quote from: David RThis is what I liked about first edition Mage, IMO one of the best freeform magic systems out there. I think Heroquest has also got a freeform magic system, but I'm still grappling with the system, so I can't really comment.

Regards,
David R

See, I had the roughest time with Mage's system. It confused me, my players and we liked free form systems. Personally, though, I think part of the problem was the explanation.

Bill

Quote from: ColonelHardissonSame here. I've seen it devolve into the magic-using characters dominating a game session as they work out the details of what they want to accomplish. I'm sure there is a way for such a system to work, I just haven't encountered it yet. And yes, I will check out the links provided by our esteemed resident designers ;)

See, I countered that with giving clear cut "areas" of power. Usually limited to three. So, Water, Travel and Invisibility means you could teleport or create a wall of water or drown those pesky dark riders as they cross your ford. However, the counter is that if you fail you can either have damage or no effect.

See, you have two checks. One vs CON and one vs Piety. Fail CON and you take damage equal to the modifier you had for the effect. Fail the Piety and no effect goes off. You can have any combination of the two fail/success conditions. Modifiers are directly the domain of the GM and are subjectively set by him. So, Try and make a fire ball with the above areas of power and you probably get a -10 or 15 (checks are on a d20). I have had folks use this system in D20 with WIS instead of Piety.

So, the system can be simple. In practice I have found it runs faster than traditional spells since you aren't looking up spells all the time and arguing about what they mean. You (the GM and Player) are the final arbiters.

Bill

Quote from: ColonelHardissonCan you give me a brief description of either of them?

For Mage heeere's...

wikipedia :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mage:_The_Ascension

For HQ maybe droog could say a few words.

(I suck at describing mechanics, hence the link)

Regards,
David R

Quote from: HinterWeltSee, I had the roughest time with Mage's system. It confused me, my players and we liked free form systems. Personally, though, I think part of the problem was the explanation.

I totally get this.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: ColonelHardissonI've seen it devolve into the magic-using characters dominating a game session as they work out the details of what they want to accomplish.

Of course, that couldn't really turn out to be a problem with old Mage, since every notable character used magic as defined in the game, even the scientists...

I like the systems in Mage 2e and Nobilis: wide-open frameworks for every conceivable effect.

GrimGent could you give the Col. a run down of the Mage magic system. From what I've read, you have a good grasp of the system.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RGrimGent could you give the Col. a run down of the Mage magic system.

For the sake of clarity, the range of all possible magical effects is divided into nine broad categories, known as "Spheres", each rank of which allows a mage to perform and combine specific changes in reality, such as Correspondence 3 ("Pierce Space") for personal teleportation or Forces 2 ("Control Minor Forces") to disperse any sounds that he might make into silence, or both of them together for completely silent teleportation. What exactly became possible with further individual ranks varied considerably over the editions as the effects gradually grew more structured and codified, to the point that Mage: The Awakening has now adopted more general rank descriptions which cover all the categories.

So the ranks which a chararacter holds in each Sphere determine what he's capable of, in theory. In practice, the dice pool available for these actions is measured by the mage's Arete stat (his degree of enlightenment), and the base difficulty of the attempt is determined not only by the highest Sphere rank involved but also by whether the effects are considered "vulgar" or "coincidental", loosely based on what an average unsuspecting witness would accept as possible. (These definitions have always been one of the major causes of Mage flamewars, incidentally.) Gain enough successes, over several rolls if necessary, and you can pull the moon down from the sky. Botch, and reality begins to ripple as the unconscious consensus of humanity instinctively strives to re-establish the status quo, possibly leading to paradox backlashes which at their worst can erase the offending mage from existence.

I have no idea what edition of Mage I played, I think it was 2E.  I loved that system too death, ever since the day I realized that with a minimal effort and training my Heremetic Mage could alter the amperage and voltage of the electrical signals in a person's nervous system.

Oh yeah.  Kick up the amperage of the microvoltage and suddenly you're whole nervous system is screaming in pain.  Kick up the voltage, and watch the sparks fly!  Fucking AWESOME.

I love free form magic systems just because you get way more "How shit, if I do X, then Y happens, and that is made of awesome!" sort of moments.  Rigid predefined spells tend to discourage creativity, just because they tend to shape your imagination.

Maelstrom for the win, of course.

Actually I'm not really fond of free form magic.  The problem is that it is only useful in the hands of someone who is imaginative.

The few times I playtested the one I came up with for Galactic Adventures (Fantastic Adventures?) the players just didn't know what to do with it.

Quote from: David RI think Heroquest has also got a freeform magic system, but I'm still grappling with the system, so I can't really comment.

HeroQuest's magic system is about as free-form as its ability system, which is to say that it's potentially very free-form.  In HQ, pretty much anything can be taken as a character's ability.  With magic, it can be something as simple as a single magical power with very limited application, or it can be a complex form of ritual magic, but each is described as a single target roll that is modified by how you, the player, detail its use.  There are also magical traditions that include "books" of rote spells that may further modify your chance of casting a particular spell.

!i!

[Edit: In hindsight, I don't think I did the HQ magic system justice.  I tend to use only the most simplified form of it, which is refreshingly flexible.  The neat thing about the system is that you can build in as much detail or as little as you want or need.]

Quote from: SeanWhich are the best you've played ?

Do you prefer pre-scribed spell lists instead ?

I prefer free form, although I like example spells--like Ars Magica or Talislanta (as of 4E for it)

High Valor (my FRPG) uses a free form system split between Low Magic and High Magic. Low magic is "you can't see don't know its working for sure" (it adds a minor trait to the character or object temporarily, or takes one away.)

High Magic is your traditional flung spell effects--they ALWAYS have side effects though. Albeit a competent spell caster has several ways to reduce the side effects to at most a minor issue.

I've included a handful of sample spells that are built following the system for the free form stuff, in order to show how it is done.

Ars is the best I've played, though Elements of Magic looks very nice.

I think oMage suffers from ambiguity and fan over-analysis. nMage removes some ambiguity, but it feels a bit heavy to me.

I generally prefer what you might call scripted, though there are less scripted variations (like using power pools in hero). I find that to make a character that flexible, you either have to acknowledge it is the central/controlling character type or to limp-wrist them to the point they are unappealing to play.

Pacts in Changeling: The Lost are fun. These allow for supernatural win-win situations for the people involved.

QuoteI think oMage suffers from ambiguity and fan over-analysis.

I guess the latter is a direct result of the former.

Duels used a mechanic similar to the spheres, but it was a little less evocative and little easier to manipulate. You had five aspects of magic, each of which had   a particular game effect. Fortification raised or lowered a mage's main stats, Alteration raised or lowered another's main stats, Vigor raised or lowered someone's hit points, Journey raised or lowered someone's Movement, Enhancement changed stats for an inanimate object.

You bought dice in different aspects, and ostensibly you would be able to mix die from different aspects to devise whatever effect you wanted. Of course, like most freeform magic, it could become tricky to adjudicate. But there were a number of examples, and the system was not so crunchy that you would lose suspension of disbelief if you went a little wonky.

So it was my favorite, if not necessarily the best.

Oh, I'd forgotten about The Amazing Engine's For Faerie Queen and Country.  It had a great system of freeform magic that you could construct from a neatly intuitive sentence structure system.

!i!

Quote from: HinterWeltSee, I had the roughest time with Mage's system.

Me too.  I think part of the problem was that I first played it under a GM who house-ruled a lot of stuff, so when I sat down to actually run a game things didn't work how I thought they would.  

My favorite freeform magic system is Nathan Hill's Eldritch Ass Kicking (http://www.eldritchasskicking.com/) which bases everything around the four elements.  

Pete

Quote from: David JohansenActually I'm not really fond of free form magic.  The problem is that it is only useful in the hands of someone who is imaginative.

"Rotes" in Mage (common textbook examples of spells) should help with that, and so does preparing a personal "miracle menu" in Nobilis. If your Duke of Fire makes a habit of curing people by burning away their diseases, it's not a bad idea to consider in advance how a trick like that might fit into the mechanics.

Iron Gauntlets has a semi-freeform magic system called crafting. It's similar to Mage and Ars Magica. You can make spells with it, but it requires some work. The second edition of Iron Gauntlets will use spell templates, but still keep crafting as an option, since it has a strong following (but can be difficult to understand by those used to ready-made spells).

For me the issues with freeform magic is that it can suck up a bunch of time in fiddling and negotiation.  "Is that level 3 of fire or level 4?"  Clear guidelines help some but the guidelines never seem to cover enough.  The rules in Ars Magica are among the best for freeish form but the charts get extensive enought that they approach spell list systems in page count.  The end of the scale are the large number of systems that boil down to "I dunno, just wing it."  BESM's freeform system is like that.
 
Creating some go-to spells out of session is very important for speeding play.  
 
The problem with scripted spells is that they either are extremely limiting or they require a great deal of learning.  Basic D&D is an example of the former.  A cleric has about 8 spells to choose from at 1st level.  AD&D and D&D 3e are examples of the latter.  There are over 100 pages of spell descriptions.  That's great if you're into being rewarded for game expertise as it interacts with tactics.  But if you want to focus on other parts of gaming, it's very tedious.
 
I like freeform if I'm going with a simple system like Fudge.  I prefer scripted if I'm going with a larger system with lots of tactical options.

Also, have a look at S.John Ross' Elemental Magic (http://www.io.com/~sjohn/element.htm) article.  It's written with GURPS in mind, but I've ported it over to one or two other systems with great ease.

!i!

The problem we always had in Ars Magica (at least in 5th Edition) was that while freeform spellcasting was possible, it was always sufficiently difficult (unless you wanted to spend ages doing a big ritual) that it was almost always worth doing formulaic magic instead. Granted, it's easy to come up with new formula spells in ArsM, but even then you're essentially just compiling your own personal spell list, with freeform magic to fill in the gaps.

It depends on the setting, but generally free form. Of course, as a GM, it's also the one that produces the most headaches.

Seanchai

Quote from: David JohansenActually I'm not really fond of free form magic.  The problem is that it is only useful in the hands of someone who is imaginative.

When I house ruled freeform magic into one of my AD&D campaigns the first thing the players did was re-inventing magic missile, cure light wounds, detect magic, and knock...

When it comes to free form magic my favorite is Ars Magica 4th edition (I haven't read 5th yet, but 4th was better than the previous editions). I usually don't like free form magic though. I like to imagine magic as set incantations that unlock certain realities, formulas that must be recited perfectly and handed down through the ages. So I like set magical spells and rituals, like WFRP or AD&D/Hackmaster. But when we do play free form it's definitely Ars Magica.

-=Grim=-

I have been looking around for a more free form magic system to use in playing a possible Harn campaign, and Ars Magica 5ed is what I'm currently reading. I've heard about the game for years, but for some dumbass reason have never looked into it before. I'm kinda digging it so far, but I have yet to play it. I like how it has both free form and formulaic spells that work together. I also have True Sorcery, which is kinda semi-pseudo-free form, but I also have not actually used it in game. Either looks like they would be both versatile, and heavy on the book-keeping.

Quote from: GrimJestaWhen it comes to free form magic my favorite is Ars Magica 4th edition (I haven't read 5th yet, but 4th was better than the previous editions). I usually don't like free form magic though. I like to imagine magic as set incantations that unlock certain realities, formulas that must be recited perfectly and handed down through the ages. So I like set magical spells and rituals, like WFRP or AD&D/Hackmaster. But when we do play free form it's definitely Ars Magica.

-=Grim=-

What set 4th apart from, say, 3rd in this area?

Quote from: SeanWhich are the best you've played ?

My favorite is from Talislanta 4th. I find it inspiring and flexible yet just structured enough.

I also like Ars Magica, Dragonlance SAGA and Everway

Quote from: SeanDo you prefer pre-scribed spell lists instead ?

I prefer a mix of both, with on-the-fly magic coming at a cost.

One issue with free form is that some players have munchkin tendencies and will twist anything that isn't solidly written down.  If you have such players and don't have the energy to constantly shoot them down, then free form isn't for you.  They'll eat up much of the game arguing the level and power of spells made up on the fly.

Quote from: NicephorusOne issue with free form is that some players have munchkin tendencies and will twist anything that isn't solidly written down.

The irony, of course, is that free-form is great for the very same reason, provided those munchkin tendencies are constructive.  Sometimes mod-farming is great and fun, and can be kept within character, rather than simply an exercise in working a system until it bleeds.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaThe irony, of course, is that free-form is great for the very same reason, provided those munchkin tendencies are constructive. Sometimes mod-farming is great and fun, and can be kept within character, rather than simply an exercise in working a system until it bleeds.
 
!i!

Yea, it really depends on the details of what you're trying do with the game and what kind of group you have. Poorly defined magic can allow things to suddenly move in new and fun directions if you have creative and reasonable players.

Quote from: SkyrockI've never encountered a freeform magic system that I seriously liked - most demand too much ad-hoc decisions and are too fuzzy ruled to be used all the time in the game.

I agree. I'll take spell lists any day.

Fuzzy rules and unpredictable abilities and effects are no friend of my gaming style. I'd go completely rule-less before I'd use a free-form magic system.