Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;945425From a personal perspective, it irritates me to see a PDF that's priced at 50% or above the print version. If the PDF isn't reasonably priced, I won't buy the book.

In my case that would be hard to do considering the costs involved namely the cut that Lulu and RPGNow gets. I can say that I make the nearly same profit from a single copy whether it is PDF or Print. I also include the PDF with the print option when the storefront software allows me to do that.

For example for the Majestic Wilderlands I make about $5 per copy. This works out to be roughly $12 for print, and $7 for PDF.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;945299Yes, I have access to a very large pirate network. There's very little gaming or wargame material not available.

Legal issues aside, I will only ever use such things to decide if I want to buy a product; I basically treat it no differently than a library or flipping through a book in a store. I not only prefer hard copies of all my gaming material, I also want to support anyone who puts creative effort into a product I make use of.

This is pretty much how I feel, too. I admit I've downloaded scans of some old/"classic" RPG sources which have been out of print for decades. Often to give a read and decide if I want to try and track down a hardcopy of the book. I don't really bother with more modern stuff, simply because I tend to play older games anyway.

Tangentially, I am a fan of the Fate game (though I barely ever play it), and have purchased for $0 all the supplements Evil Hat releases through DTRPG. I'd be willing to pay for those, except that I end up buying the print versions when they come out anyway. And since EH has a "buy the book, get the PDF for free" policy, it amounts to the same thing.

I think something has changed re expectations though. Everyone I know who isn't a game Master expects the GM to buy a PDF and share it with everyone. In a LARP I'm in everyone but me seems to think you shouldn't need to pay for a PDF but whatever fool that did should share it with them.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;945299Yes, I have access to a very large pirate network. There's very little gaming or wargame material not available.

Legal issues aside, I will only ever use such things to decide if I want to buy a product; I basically treat it no differently than a library or flipping through a book in a store. I not only prefer hard copies of all my gaming material, I also want to support anyone who puts creative effort into a product I make use of.

Basically this, I consider it a free preview.  I can't stand using pdfs as a reference, so anything I run, I buy and buy hardcopy and pdf if they have a twofer, and sometimes even if they don't.

However, if the product is no longer available for purchase somewhere, I have no qualms about copying it, as I am not harming anyone at all.  I'll support the authors/publishers, the Acaeum-Level Ebayers can kiss my ass.

Bits-and-Mortar.com has the right idea here:

* If a customer buys a book published by a Bits & Mortar publisher (see the list of publishers here) from their local game or book store, and that book is available online as a combined print and PDF bundle, we will give them the PDF at no additional charge.  It’s a free value-add and a thank you from the publisher for supporting their local store.

* Better yet, we will make it possible for that local store to give the PDF to the customer directly, keeping the sale completely “in house”.

* When a B&M publisher has a product up for preorders online, offering a free PDF for those who preorder, we will work with retail stores to provide that same offer in-store.  Your customers won’t have to choose between getting access to something early online and supporting their favorite store — they’ll get to do both in one place.

http://www.bits-and-mortar.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Bits-and-Mortar-store-flyer-2014-11-14.pdf

Quote from: Spinachcat;945392AKA, if I copy a bunch of an author's stuff, but then drop cash on his next Kickstarter for hardcovers, was that theft or advertising? Would the author have gained the KS sale if not for the copying of his previous stuff?

It's the authors decision to make, not yours. Some give pdfs away for free because they think it's good advertising. Others think that it will hurt their sales, so they don't do it. You should respect that.

"I violated your rights, but it was for your own good!" is one of the worst excuses there is.

Quote from: Spinachcat;945392It's a very thorny issue.

More like a very boring one. Your entire post is exactly what I meant when I referred to self-righteous rationalizations.

Quote from: under_score;945423It surprises me though that every time I run a game for randoms on Roll20 at least one player will ask me to send him all my PDFs.  No, every time.

Interesting.

Does anyone else have this experience?

In the pre-digital gaming days, there was always 1 or more players in every group who never bought a RPG book (often didn't have dice) and just expected everyone else to share with them.

Quote from: Tod13;945424And then you have Mutants and Masterminds that has everything legally online in an SRD, and still makes Gold Seller status on DriveThruRPG for the PDF version.

Which is very interesting...

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;945425It's my pet project for the year, which I plan to share the results with the community to help others understand the impact a free PDF makes upon hardback sales.

Awesome! Thank you in advance!

Quote from: PencilBoy99;945451Everyone I know who isn't a game Master expects the GM to buy a PDF and share it with everyone. In a LARP I'm in everyone but me seems to think you shouldn't need to pay for a PDF but whatever fool that did should share it with them.

Wow.

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;945457Bits-and-Mortar.com has the right idea here:

I am surprised more RPG companies aren't working with Bits and Mortar. It's a great idea.

Quote from: Pyromancer;945495It's the authors decision to make, not yours.

You are 100% right in theory, but that's not how it works in the real world.

Quote from: Voros;945505More like a very boring one. Your entire post is exactly what I meant when I referred to self-righteous rationalizations.

Where are the self-righteous rationalizations?

Realities and trends ARE happening - whether any of us want it to happen or not. The ease of copying digital content (books, movies, music) has changed the business landscape for creators, distributors, sellers and customers.

If creators and sellers aren't compensated through direct sales, that will have far reaching effects for customers.

The culture of 1 person buying and the rest of the gaming group copying as described by posters above IS happening, and perhaps even growing to become a "normal" facet of the hobby - and that will affect the future of the hobby as creators and sellers must discover how to navigate the new waters.

I'm also a big fan of dreaming about "what should be", but that's useless when dealing with "what is actually happening".

Perhaps I misunderstood you. I too have illegally downloaded material I didn't pay for. I just don't think I have a right to do it and find internet debates trying to justify it tiresome.

If I bring something to the table I'm going to buy the hardcopy, for convience if nothing else. I also tend to buy hardcopies of my favourite old supplements, as long as the price is reasonable, because I am collector scum.

I've found in my case and the people around me the argument "it's okay to pirate stuff" is inversely proportional to income. In my case I used to torrent stuff quite a bit as a poor collage student but as I moved on and got a job I buy more and more and look askance at piracy. This is also the case with just about everyone I know. The only people I know that still regularly pirate stuff are either poor or just openly greedy.

In short; IME, moral arguments for piracy are a rationalization for other, less noble, drives.

Quote from: Piestrio;945523In short; IME, moral arguments for piracy are a rationalization for other, less noble, drives.

What!?  People rationalize things for their own benefit, even to themselves!?  Shocker!  /sarcasm

Regarding greedy players asking for copies of the PDF for a game...

One of the -many- things I love about the Basic Fantasy RPG is that the thing is free in electronic format, and cheap ($5 for the core rules) in hardcopy. I've been running a successful game of it for over two years now, and didn't have to deal with people begging for copies of anything. Just pointed them to the publisher, and told them to get whatever they wanted.

I agree that rationalizations are pointless. Its something where everyone decides for themselves where they draw the line. I have some observations on it, but these are not attempts to justify or villify:

First, I know a few people who download massive amounts of stuff. You name it, they have a pirated copy of it. Entire hard drives filled with PDFs. And, the thing is, they don't read any of them. Its almost like an OCD need to collect more than anything. They serve no real purpose, they just have them. To a certain extent I can understand in that I 've never read a pdf larger than probably about 30 pages all the way through. If I want to read a book, of any kind, from cover to cover, I basically have to have a hardcopy or printout. And its pretty rare that a printout costs substantially less that its worth it over buying it for me. Maybe if I worked at some place I had access to free printing. But ink cartridges are bloody expensive, and I really don't see myself dropping by Kinkos or whatever with pirated books to print.

Secondly, I've seen propaganda making a big deal about how piracy affects the economy. It doesn't. It has an absolute nil effect overall. Why? Because people still have the same amounts of spending money they always did, and will still spend it. And chances are, the people willing to pirate something are not the same people who would have bought the thing anyways.

Additionally, I personally think that everything should be available in some form to any customer who wants it. And if a company is willing to let something go out of print, or an IP holder is just sitting on stuff without making it available, then I don't think they have any worthwhile complaint to make about piracy. In those cases, pirated material is doing the world a service.

Also, I am a big fan of patronage in general. If there is a creator you like, send them a few spare bucks every now and then. "Buy them a coffee" as they put it on one of the online groups I frequent. I don't think anyone should feel bound by the retail relationship. There's creators I support who I have never recieved a thing from, or purchased any product made by. Especially in a niche hobby like this, where so many people put in so much effort for stuff that is available free online, I go by the Brazil motto: "We're all in it together."

Anyways, as I said, those are just thoughts. I'm not going to shame anyone who pirates, I'm not going to say there's never anything wrong with that. Ultimately, the internet is a resource, and people will make use of that one way or another, and the world and retail in general will need to adapt to that.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;945540If I want to read a book, of any kind, from cover to cover, I basically have to have a hardcopy or printout. And its pretty rare that a printout costs substantially less that its worth it over buying it for me. Maybe if I worked at some place I had access to free printing. But ink cartridges are bloody expensive, and I really don't see myself dropping by Kinkos or whatever with pirated books to print.

Fortunately, you can do POD today at decent prices. AKA, kinda the same prices as buying the book at retail.

I paid $10 to print out Mazes & Minotaurs as its only available as a free PDF, but that's the only reason I've played so much with the game. I don't think I'd have played as much if I only had the PDF.