TheRPGSite

Couple years ago, during a shortlived fascination with Pathfinder, I stumbled upon an obscure related website. It was a simple white page titled "index" and included links to dozens of PDFs. Core Rulebooks, adventure modules, campaign books etc. Doing some research I discovered there was a link to almost every product available at that time. These PDFs were going anywhere from $9 to $30, thousands of dollars in material. The Pathfinder Society Adventure Paths alone were worth hundreds.

I had no idea who had posted these links or why, if it was something official used by a provider somewhere or secret pirate stash. At any rate I kept it to myself but sure made liberal use of the links. I still have the entire collection on disk, but have always felt a little guilty about it.

Since then I have come across similar pages, the most recent including an impressive collection of World of Darkness products, all currently available on RPGNow for a price but absolutely free from the site I discovered. What gives?

Has anyone else found these little treasure troves? Do you make use of them? Do you share them with your group or even post links for interested forum buddies?

So far Ive kept this strictly to myself but having made the discovery several times now Im thinking maybe its not as rare as I believe, and if not, perhaps sharing isn't a terrible a crime as I feel it might be.

Thoughts?

It seems just about every major rpg has this problem.  I and other retailers hear about it all the time, "Oh man, I love Traveller, downloaded it all for free from this site..."

I don't think it can be prevented these days and may even bring in a few new sales and fans.  I think the days of buying something to see if you like it have passed.

So, on the one hand it's outright illegal and legally defined as theft.  On the other hand, I have long believed that if someone won't pay $50 for a rule book they probably won't pay $5 for the exact same rulebook if they can get away with paying nothing.  There's also the question of whether everything always needs to exist in print.  It seems like a bit of a waste sometimes.

I don't think we've found the right answers to digital content and availability yet.

I'm not sure we ever will.

I do wonder who has the time to put these files together.  They used to borrow or buy a book and scan it but probably just buy a pdf and then put it out in the wild these days.

As someone who liked gaming better when it was more DIY the erosion of the publishing industry might even be a plus.

If only I wasn't running a gaming store and trying to sell books.

If only so many books weren't out of print and otherwise unavailable for me to sell.

Who knows?

Although Pundit isn't against piracy exactly, it is against the law and therefore we won't tolerate anyone posting links to it on this site.

Discuss the morality by all means (which has been done about a hundred times already for about a decade) but do not link to anything illegal. Just a heads-up in case someone thinks its a-ok here.

Yes, I have access to a very large pirate network. There's very little gaming or wargame material not available.

Legal issues aside, I will only ever use such things to decide if I want to buy a product; I basically treat it no differently than a library or flipping through a book in a store. I not only prefer hard copies of all my gaming material, I also want to support anyone who puts creative effort into a product I make use of.

What I find funny is how readily google and other search engines link to them.

The other day I was looking for a 1920s guide to London and instead of giving me a Baedeaker's Guide or something similar, I got the CoC sourcebook (not the new one, but the older one). D'oh.  Espeically since a) I had the hard copy of it and b) it's not that good and why I was looking for a guide from that era. (Later found a Muir guide from 1922 on Archive.org)

Im a stickler for the old-school feel of hardcopy too so anything I actually intend to use I either buy in print or have printed, but Ill admit avoiding the initial cost of a pdf now and then when it is available free somewhere. I had no intention of posting the link here and have already turned down some requests privately. I figure they can hunt it down and deal with the ethics the same way I have.

On the plus side I have downloaded countless pdfs which after a brief review decided they weren't for me and deleted. Purchasing all those hopeful but not quite measuring products would have been terrible wasteful. Perhaps using the freebies as a sneak peak isn't so bad as has been noted here.

I know a number of creative types who don't mind piracy, viewing it as advertising, and we're seeing an increase in the 'pay what you want' model of sales for PDFs, which wasn't true the last time I saw this argument here.  Drive thru RPG seems to offer a bunch of products where you type in the amount you want to pay, though does seem to be a minimum 1 dollar.

The thing is, I own something very like an actual Ton of books, not the metaphorical ton, and I move around a lot and travel frequently for 'work', so I own a lot of PDFs for books I also own. I'm not paying twice for the same product if I can help it.  

And sometimes I get the PDF first, maybe for free, then buy the book later, not least of which is the simple fact that mere data files are much more fragile and losable than hard copy books, but also because I enjoy reading books, and I abhor reading PDFs.  I can flip through a book in seconds to find what I want, and even if I'm not flipping, I can read the damn thing three or four times faster on paper due to page flipping vs scrolling, and images and text never displays a white page while waiting for the next batch of data to load.


This can lead me to something I read a few years back about economic models and understanding your business.  I'll sum it up thusly: The Record Industries main failure is that they view their business as selling albums, which is not viable in the changing technological environment, instead of selling entertainment, a much more flexible proposition.

It's against IP law, but morally I see it as equivalent to using a library to read books. I live in an area that constantly wins awards for the libraries. My wife, kids, and I constantly use the library system here. The internet is basically a borderless and unlimited library system. I have yet to see any thread on this over the years change anyone's minds though.

Things like this can often end up being the only way to preserve some older games that are OOP (out of print) or find replacements for things damaged or lost. Or when a publisher does put the game up. But at some insanely jacked price for a PDF.

Example: All the TFT material. Thats never going to see light as anything else at this rate.

Example: Chaosium has Orient Express up as a PDF at an absurd 60$ for a PDF. At this rate Im never replacing my copy that was stolen.

Example: Flying Buffalo on the other hand now has up all their Tunnels & Trolls solo adventures as PDFs ar a reasonable price and I've been buying  those to fill holes in my collection.

Example: All the Star Frontiers material is online with permission from WOTC.

I have used illegitimate PDFs to replace RPGs that I have lost over the years. I try to purchase them in PDF and/or hardcopy whenever possible, eventually.
I do think it's bad, in that the authors aren't getting paid, and I encourage everybodies to pony up if you like/are interested in an RPG enough to download it.

Yes, prchasing a pdf of a title I already own in hardcopy doesn't bother me a bit. I figure I already did my part to finance the author etc. Obviously retailers don't see it that way, usually charging for the pdf in addition to hardcopy.

On a related side note, I recently purchased a $200 laser printer to experiment with providing hard copy of legally purchased pdfs for customers.  At this point I can't compete with Staples .02 per page.  You'd need access to trade discounts on printer cartridges to do so.  A Coverbind system starts at $1100USD and can do hard backs for about $12 which would mean about 100 books to pay for the binding system.  So a 200 page book at $0.05  will be $10 to print and $10 to bind plus $25 for the pdf. and on $45 that I would make perhaps $10.  Lousy margins and that's just in black and white.  I expect the trend to full colour book is in part an attempt to fight piracy by producing books that can't be read when printed in black and white..  It's certainly cheaper to buy the book than it is to print that illegal pdf in full colour.

I buy all of my RPGs hardcopy if I can.

I have moral difficulty even looking at approved libraries of gaming material online. Like SRDs. Because I truly want the authors to be paid for their hard work.

I prefer the feel of real books in my hand. Call me old school. But that is where my comfort zone is.

It may be heavier on my pocketbook. But that's just how it is.

My experience is that pdfs which are downloaded for free are rarely even read, let alone used to run and play games. They just mass-download a shitload of stuff and it sits in a folder on their computer for a few years until their computer dies and they buy a new one. Pirated pdfs are played even less than plastic-covered copies of OD&D owned by some guy at the Acaeum.

So the "morality" of pirated rpgs is a meaningless question. It's like asking about the morality of pornography when you never jerk off or have sex.

Quote from: David Johansen;945319On a related side note, I recently purchased a $200 laser printer to experiment with providing hard copy of legally purchased pdfs for customers.  At this point I can't compete with Staples .02 per page.  You'd need access to trade discounts on printer cartridges to do so.  A Coverbind system starts at $1100USD and can do hard backs for about $12 which would mean about 100 books to pay for the binding system.  So a 200 page book at $0.05  will be $10 to print and $10 to bind plus $25 for the pdf. and on $45 that I would make perhaps $10.  Lousy margins and that's just in black and white.  I expect the trend to full colour book is in part an attempt to fight piracy by producing books that can't be read when printed in black and white..  It's certainly cheaper to buy the book than it is to print that illegal pdf in full colour.

I think the most I've charged for a pdf is $13 for the 472 page behemoth that was StarCluster 3 Designer's Edition. My prices are lower and my books smaller now! :D

The ethical issues associated with digital piracy are pretty complex.  I think there are good arguments to be made on both sides.  The copyright holder has to be respected, of course, but there's also the issue of copyright abuse.  There's also social and economic factors involved in what makes a pirate a pirate.  For example, for some people, it's the only access to books that they have.  Libraries are dissappearing, or turning into sactuaries for heroine addicts.

Fuck that.  What if I want to learn.

Too complex, and I'm not going to get into it.

To the OP, have I seen TTRPGs available on file sharing sites?  Yes.  Do I use them?  No.

If I were a pirate (which, of course, I'm not), I'd have rules.  One such rule is I pay for my RPGS.  I would only pirate a RPG so I could review its contents, to see if I liked it.  If it did, I'd buy it.  A lot of pirates think this way, believe it or not.

RPGs are a small niche market.  A lot of pirating is done against large production studios (mulitmedia, Hollywood movies, etc.)  For a lot of pirates, it's not about getting free shit.  It's about defying what they see as an oppressive media combine and the governments that support it.  True or false, that's what many of them believe.  A lot of them support small outfits for the same reason.

There've been a couple of studies about this kind of thing.  I don't have them on hand.  A few argue that Hollywood has taken significant losses as a result of piracy, but most debunk this allegation.  Most of the studies I've read suggest piracy is less than an issue than people think it is.

Look, GURPS fans are going to buy GURPS, even if that shit is out there for free, just to support SJGs.

Doesn’t matter, though.

This tech isn't going away.  It's evolving.  Some really neat stuff, too!  Half of it is designed to counter invasive online privacy concerns rasied by intrusive corps or government interests.

Not supporting piracy.  There's good and there's bad.  That's all I'm saying.

I've located and downloaded freebie stuff everywhere, often of books I used to own. The stuff's often so dated I figure it ought to be public domain. (yup--that's my rationale)

I've downloaded pirated game material too. For me it's taken the place of looking through stuff at the game store.
If I read a thing and like it, I'm gonna want to buy a hardcopy. That's what happened with all the Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader stuff... it's why I've got NWOD books loading up my bookcase.

If I want to actually use it there's no way I'm going to run it off a PDF... and I'm not going to try to do it off some crappy printouts either. If anything, the pirates have turned me onto games I would have never known about... my rate of spending sure hasn't decreased.

On the other hand if I download something, flip through it, and then just leave it forgotten on my hard drive... well, it's probably not a purchase I ever would have made anyway, unless it was an impulse buy I'd later regret.
I don't go to the local game stores anymore because they long ago stopped carrying anything I'd want... so those impulse buys are gone anyway... but replaced by impulse buys on RPGNow.

Also, If I like a pirated game, I still go buy a PDF of it... just to have the 'official' one and get access to updates and errata fixes on the legit sites.

We live in weird times.

I have a notable metal music collection from back when dinosaurs roamed record shops and bought used CDs. Hunting down albums was a hobby for me in the 80s and 90s. I can't even imagine paying for music anymore.

Instead, I pay Pandora to never hear ads. If I want a song on demand, Youtube always has it. Usually with my choice of album cut, live performance or lyric video.  I guess the musicians get some income from streaming, but unless the clicks are in the millions, I bet we are talking pennies. To support my favorite bands, I attend concerts and buy t-shirts instead.  

But there is no ancillary option for RPG authors. We either buy their shit or they don't make money.

I think Sine Nomine may have cracked the code for the modern RPG sales. He gives so much A grade stuff away, and then you can buy the "complete + extras" version from him via Kickstarter or DriveThru.

I am one of those "pirates" who downloads stuff to preview. Its my version of standing in the FLGS and flipping through the book before buying it. If its good enough to be worth my time, I am happy to buy a hardcopy.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;945323My experience is that pdfs which are downloaded for free are rarely even read, let alone used to run and play games.

I have barely read all the PDFs I bought legally!!

If the author hasn't approved it, downloading the pdf is theft.  If you think the author should go to a pay-what-you-want, or a free preview and pay for premium model, but they haven't, it's still theft.  Even if it were objectively the case that they'd somehow get more net paid sales under a different model, but they don't go to that model, it's theft.

Now, if you're going to do it anyway no can stop you.  But don't tell yourself "oooooh, maybe this is legit!  It's just a publisher put it up and didn't lock it!"  It's pirates.

I understand the temptation better when you own the hardcopy, can't find it any other way, or want to preview something you're genuinely thinking of buying.  That's arguably less worse than snagging something and thinking "score!"  I suspect it's also rarer than snagging something and thinking "score!"

Most of us steal using the net, I prefer to not provide self-righteous rationalizations for it. Some behave as if they have a right to steal.

Copying is stealing?

AKA, what did the author actually lose? A potential sale? Maybe, but can that be proven? Moreover, what is the actual ratio of sales lost to sales gained because of PDF copying?

And how can it be codified?

AKA, if I copy a bunch of an author's stuff, but then drop cash on his next Kickstarter for hardcovers, was that theft or advertising? Would the author have gained the KS sale if not for the copying of his previous stuff?

It's a very thorny issue.

I've noticed when I google for old material especially, right beneath the link to the paid-for pdf there'll generally be a link to a free unauthorised copy someone has uploaded (eg a day ago I saw Chainmail from ca 1974/77 reprint). I tend to think that exploitation copyrights longer than the Statute of Anne 14/28 year term lack any moral basis so I don't think it's immoral per se to read or download this old stuff, certainly for personal use, whereas I'm uncomfortable with obtaining unauthorised scans of recent material, because authors and publishers deserve a chance to get a return on their labour/investment. I think a 14 year prohibition on distribution & copying for personal use would be reasonable and would match eg Design Right & Patent terms (Patent was 14 years, increased to 20).

Quote from: Spinachcat;945392Copying is stealing?

Not legally, no. Unauthorised copying is normally a civil tort, but commercial piracy can be a criminal offence.

Then theres the really fucked up cases. One I know of personally involves fans having to quietly pass around the original free PNP of a game made for a contest after a publisher took the game to print and then tried to bury the original. Going so far as the designer messaging everyone whod supported the game with fan material and enhancements to delete their work. All so they could get the bestest mostest sales!

So people keep passing around the tapes as it were.

I'm fortunate enough to have a substantial quantity of disposable income, so I obtain my PDFs legally, despite my opposition to the current legal implementations of copyright.  I have no ethical objections to copyright infringement and I don't care if someone else does it for personal use (commercial infringement is another matter entirely), but I choose not to do so, specifically to deny supporters of the current laws the opportunity to claim that I'm only trying to justify my own illegal behavior.

I do, however, make two exceptions to this general rule:

1) If something is no longer available legally (abandonware, out of print, etc.), I have few qualms with copying it illegally if given the opportunity.

2) If I legally purchase a product which is subject to intrusive DRM, I have absolutely no reservations about obtaining a cracked copy so that I can more easily access the content which I have legally purchased.  But this primarily came up in the days of computer games that required you to have the CD in the drive to play; I don't think I've encountered a single case where I've even considered turning to piracy to circumvent DRM since they stopped doing CD checks.

Quote from: Dave R;945388If the author hasn't approved it, downloading the pdf is theft.  If you think the author should go to a pay-what-you-want, or a free preview and pay for premium model, but they haven't, it's still theft.  Even if it were objectively the case that they'd somehow get more net paid sales under a different model, but they don't go to that model, it's theft.

Point of order:  In most (if not all) jurisdictions, copyright infringement does not fall under the same law as larceny (theft).  So, no, it's not theft.  It is still illegal, but it's not the same crime.

Quote from: Spinachcat;945392Copying is stealing?

Copying without permission or license is infringing and can carry both civil and criminal penalties. Theft is taking possession without permission. One could steal an author's manuscript but one infringes upon the author's rights if he made a copy of the manuscript without permission.

It easy to copy digital works but it doesn' t make the situation any more special than using a printing press to run off copies of an author books. Both infringes the author's rights and creates a liability costing the copier both money and jail time.

Where digital differs than the printing press is because of the fact it is easy to make a copy. It is very easy for somebody who makes a digital work available to cross over the threshed that allow a federal civil suit or a federal criminal prosecution.

Also note there are not copyright equivalent of small claims. It not possible to either sue or prosecute an individual infringing an author's copyright if it just a one or two copies. There is the DMCA which allows infringing material to be taken down rather quickly.

Thanks to the G+ RPG community being so close, most everything I play now is by authors/artists that I've interacted with and genuinely like.  I can't imagine not paying for their stuff.

It surprises me though that every time I run a game for randoms on Roll20 at least one player will ask me to send him all my PDFs.  No, every time.

And then you have Mutants and Masterminds that has everything legally online in an SRD, and still makes Gold Seller status on DriveThruRPG for the PDF version.

From a publisher's perspective, I cannot prevent piracy. In fact, because of this reason, I made the decision early on to release the Early Access and final, unillustrated version of ZWEIHÄNDER Grim & Perilous RPG (http://warhammerfantasyroleplay.com) entirely for free. My hope is that the 'share-alike' approach will help promote hardback sales.

In fact, I plan to host the final unillustrated version across torrent trackers on day one, so I can track downloads and measure a positive/negative correlation between downloads and hardbacks sold. It's my pet project for the year, which I plan to share the results with the community to help others understand the impact a free PDF makes upon hardback sales.

From a personal perspective, it irritates me to see a PDF that's priced at 50% or above the print version. If the PDF isn't reasonably priced, I won't buy the book.

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;945425From a personal perspective, it irritates me to see a PDF that's priced at 50% or above the print version. If the PDF isn't reasonably priced, I won't buy the book.

In my case that would be hard to do considering the costs involved namely the cut that Lulu and RPGNow gets. I can say that I make the nearly same profit from a single copy whether it is PDF or Print. I also include the PDF with the print option when the storefront software allows me to do that.

For example for the Majestic Wilderlands I make about $5 per copy. This works out to be roughly $12 for print, and $7 for PDF.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;945299Yes, I have access to a very large pirate network. There's very little gaming or wargame material not available.

Legal issues aside, I will only ever use such things to decide if I want to buy a product; I basically treat it no differently than a library or flipping through a book in a store. I not only prefer hard copies of all my gaming material, I also want to support anyone who puts creative effort into a product I make use of.

This is pretty much how I feel, too. I admit I've downloaded scans of some old/"classic" RPG sources which have been out of print for decades. Often to give a read and decide if I want to try and track down a hardcopy of the book. I don't really bother with more modern stuff, simply because I tend to play older games anyway.

Tangentially, I am a fan of the Fate game (though I barely ever play it), and have purchased for $0 all the supplements Evil Hat releases through DTRPG. I'd be willing to pay for those, except that I end up buying the print versions when they come out anyway. And since EH has a "buy the book, get the PDF for free" policy, it amounts to the same thing.

I think something has changed re expectations though. Everyone I know who isn't a game Master expects the GM to buy a PDF and share it with everyone. In a LARP I'm in everyone but me seems to think you shouldn't need to pay for a PDF but whatever fool that did should share it with them.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;945299Yes, I have access to a very large pirate network. There's very little gaming or wargame material not available.

Legal issues aside, I will only ever use such things to decide if I want to buy a product; I basically treat it no differently than a library or flipping through a book in a store. I not only prefer hard copies of all my gaming material, I also want to support anyone who puts creative effort into a product I make use of.

Basically this, I consider it a free preview.  I can't stand using pdfs as a reference, so anything I run, I buy and buy hardcopy and pdf if they have a twofer, and sometimes even if they don't.

However, if the product is no longer available for purchase somewhere, I have no qualms about copying it, as I am not harming anyone at all.  I'll support the authors/publishers, the Acaeum-Level Ebayers can kiss my ass.

Bits-and-Mortar.com (http://www.bits-and-mortar.com/) has the right idea here:

* If a customer buys a book published by a Bits & Mortar publisher (see the list of publishers here) from their local game or book store, and that book is available online as a combined print and PDF bundle, we will give them the PDF at no additional charge.  It’s a free value-add and a thank you from the publisher for supporting their local store.

* Better yet, we will make it possible for that local store to give the PDF to the customer directly, keeping the sale completely “in house”.

* When a B&M publisher has a product up for preorders online, offering a free PDF for those who preorder, we will work with retail stores to provide that same offer in-store.  Your customers won’t have to choose between getting access to something early online and supporting their favorite store — they’ll get to do both in one place.

http://www.bits-and-mortar.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Bits-and-Mortar-store-flyer-2014-11-14.pdf

Quote from: Spinachcat;945392AKA, if I copy a bunch of an author's stuff, but then drop cash on his next Kickstarter for hardcovers, was that theft or advertising? Would the author have gained the KS sale if not for the copying of his previous stuff?

It's the authors decision to make, not yours. Some give pdfs away for free because they think it's good advertising. Others think that it will hurt their sales, so they don't do it. You should respect that.

"I violated your rights, but it was for your own good!" is one of the worst excuses there is.

Quote from: Spinachcat;945392It's a very thorny issue.

More like a very boring one. Your entire post is exactly what I meant when I referred to self-righteous rationalizations.

Quote from: under_score;945423It surprises me though that every time I run a game for randoms on Roll20 at least one player will ask me to send him all my PDFs.  No, every time.

Interesting.

Does anyone else have this experience?

In the pre-digital gaming days, there was always 1 or more players in every group who never bought a RPG book (often didn't have dice) and just expected everyone else to share with them.

Quote from: Tod13;945424And then you have Mutants and Masterminds that has everything legally online in an SRD, and still makes Gold Seller status on DriveThruRPG for the PDF version.

Which is very interesting...

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;945425It's my pet project for the year, which I plan to share the results with the community to help others understand the impact a free PDF makes upon hardback sales.

Awesome! Thank you in advance!

Quote from: PencilBoy99;945451Everyone I know who isn't a game Master expects the GM to buy a PDF and share it with everyone. In a LARP I'm in everyone but me seems to think you shouldn't need to pay for a PDF but whatever fool that did should share it with them.

Wow.

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;945457Bits-and-Mortar.com (http://www.bits-and-mortar.com/) has the right idea here:

I am surprised more RPG companies aren't working with Bits and Mortar. It's a great idea.

Quote from: Pyromancer;945495It's the authors decision to make, not yours.

You are 100% right in theory, but that's not how it works in the real world.

Quote from: Voros;945505More like a very boring one. Your entire post is exactly what I meant when I referred to self-righteous rationalizations.

Where are the self-righteous rationalizations?

Realities and trends ARE happening - whether any of us want it to happen or not. The ease of copying digital content (books, movies, music) has changed the business landscape for creators, distributors, sellers and customers.

If creators and sellers aren't compensated through direct sales, that will have far reaching effects for customers.

The culture of 1 person buying and the rest of the gaming group copying as described by posters above IS happening, and perhaps even growing to become a "normal" facet of the hobby - and that will affect the future of the hobby as creators and sellers must discover how to navigate the new waters.

I'm also a big fan of dreaming about "what should be", but that's useless when dealing with "what is actually happening".

Perhaps I misunderstood you. I too have illegally downloaded material I didn't pay for. I just don't think I have a right to do it and find internet debates trying to justify it tiresome.

If I bring something to the table I'm going to buy the hardcopy, for convience if nothing else. I also tend to buy hardcopies of my favourite old supplements, as long as the price is reasonable, because I am collector scum.

I've found in my case and the people around me the argument "it's okay to pirate stuff" is inversely proportional to income. In my case I used to torrent stuff quite a bit as a poor collage student but as I moved on and got a job I buy more and more and look askance at piracy. This is also the case with just about everyone I know. The only people I know that still regularly pirate stuff are either poor or just openly greedy.

In short; IME, moral arguments for piracy are a rationalization for other, less noble, drives.

Quote from: Piestrio;945523In short; IME, moral arguments for piracy are a rationalization for other, less noble, drives.

What!?  People rationalize things for their own benefit, even to themselves!?  Shocker!  /sarcasm

Regarding greedy players asking for copies of the PDF for a game...

One of the -many- things I love about the Basic Fantasy RPG is that the thing is free in electronic format, and cheap ($5 for the core rules) in hardcopy. I've been running a successful game of it for over two years now, and didn't have to deal with people begging for copies of anything. Just pointed them to the publisher, and told them to get whatever they wanted.

I agree that rationalizations are pointless. Its something where everyone decides for themselves where they draw the line. I have some observations on it, but these are not attempts to justify or villify:

First, I know a few people who download massive amounts of stuff. You name it, they have a pirated copy of it. Entire hard drives filled with PDFs. And, the thing is, they don't read any of them. Its almost like an OCD need to collect more than anything. They serve no real purpose, they just have them. To a certain extent I can understand in that I 've never read a pdf larger than probably about 30 pages all the way through. If I want to read a book, of any kind, from cover to cover, I basically have to have a hardcopy or printout. And its pretty rare that a printout costs substantially less that its worth it over buying it for me. Maybe if I worked at some place I had access to free printing. But ink cartridges are bloody expensive, and I really don't see myself dropping by Kinkos or whatever with pirated books to print.

Secondly, I've seen propaganda making a big deal about how piracy affects the economy. It doesn't. It has an absolute nil effect overall. Why? Because people still have the same amounts of spending money they always did, and will still spend it. And chances are, the people willing to pirate something are not the same people who would have bought the thing anyways.

Additionally, I personally think that everything should be available in some form to any customer who wants it. And if a company is willing to let something go out of print, or an IP holder is just sitting on stuff without making it available, then I don't think they have any worthwhile complaint to make about piracy. In those cases, pirated material is doing the world a service.

Also, I am a big fan of patronage in general. If there is a creator you like, send them a few spare bucks every now and then. "Buy them a coffee" as they put it on one of the online groups I frequent. I don't think anyone should feel bound by the retail relationship. There's creators I support who I have never recieved a thing from, or purchased any product made by. Especially in a niche hobby like this, where so many people put in so much effort for stuff that is available free online, I go by the Brazil motto: "We're all in it together."

Anyways, as I said, those are just thoughts. I'm not going to shame anyone who pirates, I'm not going to say there's never anything wrong with that. Ultimately, the internet is a resource, and people will make use of that one way or another, and the world and retail in general will need to adapt to that.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;945540If I want to read a book, of any kind, from cover to cover, I basically have to have a hardcopy or printout. And its pretty rare that a printout costs substantially less that its worth it over buying it for me. Maybe if I worked at some place I had access to free printing. But ink cartridges are bloody expensive, and I really don't see myself dropping by Kinkos or whatever with pirated books to print.

Fortunately, you can do POD today at decent prices. AKA, kinda the same prices as buying the book at retail.

I paid $10 to print out Mazes & Minotaurs as its only available as a free PDF, but that's the only reason I've played so much with the game. I don't think I'd have played as much if I only had the PDF.

Quote from: Spellslinging Sellsword;945306It's against IP law, but morally I see it as equivalent to using a library to read books. I live in an area that constantly wins awards for the libraries. My wife, kids, and I constantly use the library system here. The internet is basically a borderless and unlimited library system.

The difference is that the library pays for their copies. And that copy can only exist in one person's possession at a time. The system still flows money to the creator, and as demand goes up the amount of money flowing to the creator increases.

Quote from: Omega;945308Example: Chaosium has Orient Express up as a PDF at an absurd 60$ for a PDF. At this rate Im never replacing my copy that was stolen.

Example: Flying Buffalo on the other hand now has up all their Tunnels & Trolls solo adventures as PDFs ar a reasonable price and I've been buying  those to fill holes in my collection.

This is always such a weird issue of perspective: The primary cost of content remains the actual content regardless of whether it's in print or digital. And you're actually paying more per page for the T&T material.

Monte Cook tried to square this riddle by splitting up the giant Ptolus sourcebook into a bunch of separate PDFs at lower price points. He was heavily criticized for "ripping people off" even though the individual PDFs still had page counts comparable to other products at the same price point. Then he bundled them all together and sold the book as a single PDF and was criticized because PDFs should never cost more than $10.

Quote from: Piestrio;945523I've found in my case and the people around me the argument "it's okay to pirate stuff" is inversely proportional to income. In my case I used to torrent stuff quite a bit as a poor collage student but as I moved on and got a job I buy more and more and look askance at piracy. This is also the case with just about everyone I know.

We seem to run in different circles.  Most of the people I know who are opposed to the current copyright laws are professionals who can easily afford to purchase content (at least on the scale of gaming PDFs).  Most of them work in software development or other IT specialties, for that matter, which is one of the industries which claims to be most vulnerable to piracy-related losses.  As I understand it, the worldwide membership of the various Pirate Parties (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_party) generally fits that profile as well.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;945552The difference is that the library pays for their copies. And that copy can only exist in one person's possession at a time. The system still flows money to the creator, and as demand goes up the amount of money flowing to the creator increases.

Fun fact:  I occasionally hear about attempts to make libraries pay the publisher each time a book is checked out, on the basis that this constitutes "lost sales" which are costing them money.  In other words, pretty much the exact same arguments used in support of the current copyright laws.

Quote from: nDervish;945571Most of the people I know who are opposed to the current copyright laws .

This is a completely separate issue from piracy. I am completely opposed to the current copyright laws that are utter distortions and corruptions of the original intentions because Disney cannot stand the idea of anyone else being able to draw the mouse character that Walt stole.

Quote from: nDervish;945571Fun fact:  I occasionally hear about attempts to make libraries pay the publisher each time a book is checked out, on the basis that this constitutes "lost sales" which are costing them money.  In other words, pretty much the exact same arguments used in support of the current copyright laws.

Yeah; actual income from libraries for most authors is tiny.

Like I said, I think morally the 1709/10 Statute of Anne got it right - you register your copyright and you get 14 years protection; you can then re-register for a second 14 years which reverts to the author even if (c) was earlier transferred. The current system is unduly influenced by French Droit D'Auteur theory (BTW I did my PhD on this, I also lecture & research in this area). I think authors deserve a reward for their labour, and publishers need an incentive to produce useful & enjoyable works, but apart from the legality WoTC has no particular moral right to income from stuff published in 1974.

Quote from: Herne's Son;945539Regarding greedy players asking for copies of the PDF for a game...

One of the -many- things I love about the Basic Fantasy RPG is that the thing is free in electronic format, and cheap ($5 for the core rules) in hardcopy. I've been running a successful game of it for over two years now, and didn't have to deal with people begging for copies of anything. Just pointed them to the publisher, and told them to get whatever they wanted.

Yeah, I'm running an S&W game currently and am glad the rule pdfs are free for those.  The previous problems I had though were when I was running DCC adventures.  Some players would want me to send them the pdf of those adventure modules after finishing it.  That isn't a case of needing something to play the game, and sharing rules.  And considering the high quality of those modules and how cheap the pdfs are, it just annoyed me.  The players clearly liked the adventures enough that they want to maybe run them someday.  That should be worth the $6 to go buy them.

Quote from: S'mon;945586Yeah; actual income from libraries for most authors is tiny.

Like I said, I think morally the 1709/10 Statute of Anne got it right - you register your copyright and you get 14 years protection; you can then re-register for a second 14 years which reverts to the author even if (c) was earlier transferred. The current system is unduly influenced by French Droit D'Auteur theory (BTW I did my PhD on this, I also lecture & research in this area). I think authors deserve a reward for their labour, and publishers need an incentive to produce useful & enjoyable works, but apart from the legality WoTC has no particular moral right to income from stuff published in 1974.

It Victor fucking Hugo fault. Great author however couldn't stand the idea of people touching his stuff.

I personally thing 28 + 28 renewed is fine but I agree with your overall point.

Quote from: estar;945609It Victor fucking Hugo fault. Great author however couldn't stand the idea of people touching his stuff.

You know your stuff! :cool:

Back when I was in the RPG business, we could reliably map a drop in our evergreen sales when the torrents of our products became widespread - so, while this information is more than ten years old now, at the time I could absolutely see a correlation between piracy and lost sales. It's made any claims that piracy is just like advertisement ring hollow to me.

Spinachcat said about Mutants and Masterminds having a free SRD online but making Gold Sales with a PDF.

Quote from: Spinachcat;945506Which is very interesting...

It is the production quality. That is one of the slickest, nicest PDFs I've seen. It is so much nicer than the HTML pages I'm at a loss for further words. :p

Quote from: ArtemisAlpha;945617Back when I was in the RPG business, we could reliably map a drop in our evergreen sales when the torrents of our products became widespread

That could also mean that once people were able to get a good look at your product they decided they didn't want it.
There's also a chance that the timeframe is similar to your game hitting resellers such as EBay. Some guys I know will buy, read, MAYBE run a session or two, and then sell a game in pretty quick order.

Quote from: Simlasa;945642That could also mean that once people were able to get a good look at your product they decided they didn't want it.
There's also a chance that the timeframe is similar to your game hitting resellers such as EBay. Some guys I know will buy, read, MAYBE run a session or two, and then sell a game in pretty quick order.

"Correlation does not imply causation" -- all the statisticians I work with, including my wife, and some of the software developers too.

If I can't get an online preview of a product at DriveThruRPG, I won't even consider buying it. There's too much variation in quality out there.

Quote from: Simlasa;945642That could also mean that once people were able to get a good look at your product they decided they didn't want it.
There's also a chance that the timeframe is similar to your game hitting resellers such as EBay. Some guys I know will buy, read, MAYBE run a session or two, and then sell a game in pretty quick order.

So, I debated about responding to this, but I've decided that the proper response is speaking up, and saying fuck you. I didn't want to get into raw numbers, but sparky, just for you, I will. Our core rulebook moved just shy of 30,000 units in its lifetime. While that doesn't mean that I published the next D&D, I can pretty reliably say that people were interested in the product. When I talk about evergreen sales, I mean that I saw sales dropping on supplements from a reliable high three digits month in and month out.

Honestly, I look at sales numbers these days, and I don't know how hardly anybody can make a living in this industry. I look at a wildly successful kickstarter, like Wick's 7th Sea, and I wonder where the people who buy books went. It had more than 11,000 backers - and that's a lot less than the first print run for a major game release from my era. To come back to this thread, I can't lay it all at the feet of piracy. But there's definitely been a sea change, if you'll pardon the pun, and piracy did have its part to play in it.

Quote from: ArtemisAlpha;945677So, I debated about responding to this, but I've decided that the proper response is speaking up, and saying fuck you.

Hah! Fuck you right back! Who is to know if you're delusional or not... I just offered some obvious alternatives to your, "They're all stealing our stuff!" paranoia.

QuoteI didn't want to get into raw numbers, but sparky, just for you, I will. Our core rulebook moved just shy of 30,000 units in its lifetime. While that doesn't mean that I published the next D&D, I can pretty reliably say that people were interested in the product. When I talk about evergreen sales, I mean that I saw sales dropping on supplements from a reliable high three digits month in and month out.

Still doesn't prove that decrease is because people were 'stealing' your game. Maybe it just reached the end of its audience.

QuoteHonestly, I look at sales numbers these days, and I don't know how hardly anybody can make a living in this industry. I look at a wildly successful kickstarter, like Wick's 7th Sea, and I wonder where the people who buy books went. It had more than 11,000 backers - and that's a lot less than the first print run for a major game release from my era.

All the gamers I now are still buying plenty of stuff... much of it is used, but a fair bit is new. I pretty regularly drop a chunk of dough on RPGNow or some other online source. But a lot of us have more gaming material than we'll ever use... and newbies aren't entering the hobby at quite the rate they once were.

I like hard copies of games and can hardly make myself read all the way through a pdf. So, I'm not even tempted by most of the e-documents floating around the web.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;945572This is a completely separate issue from piracy. I am completely opposed to the current copyright laws that are utter distortions and corruptions of the original intentions because Disney cannot stand the idea of anyone else being able to draw the mouse character that Walt stole.

As one of my professors at Seminary said: "I disagree with parts of the Book of Common Prayer.  But I follow it, because there is a procedure for revision."  I disagree with elements of current US copyright law, but I also disagree with theft.

Quote from: Simlasa;945685Still doesn't prove that decrease is because people were 'stealing' your game. Maybe it just reached the end of its audience.

Which just HAPPENED to always coincide with when it was put on torrent?

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;945694Which just HAPPENED to always coincide with when it was put on torrent?

Correlation is not causation. Especially when you can't see the data yourself. Perhaps the data is confounded--maybe torrents weren't check for until sales dropped? Or, like Simlasa said, maybe it was ending up on torrents because it hit the secondary market, where people started scanning it?

Quote from: Tod13;945695Correlation is not causation. Especially when you can't see the data yourself. Perhaps the data is confounded--maybe torrents weren't check for until sales dropped? Or, like Simlasa said, maybe it was ending up on torrents because it hit the secondary market, where people started scanning it?

It's possible.  I'm generally the first one to say that something is probably correlation vs causation.  (The bulk of media & daytime TV craziness about 'studies' is mixing them up.  The classic about hot chocolate decreasing crime always amuses me.)  But - logic dictates causation in this case, and from what was said it was multiple times for multiple products.  Assuming that he isn't lying and/or remembering incorrectly, Occam's Razor in this case seems to indicate causation.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;945698It's possible.  I'm generally the first one to say that something is probably correlation vs causation.  (The bulk of media & daytime TV craziness about 'studies' is mixing them up.  The classic about hot chocolate decreasing crime always amuses me.)  But - logic dictates causation in this case, and from what was said it was multiple times for multiple products.  Assuming that he isn't lying and/or remembering incorrectly, Occam's Razor in this case seems to indicate causation.

Right.  Causation never occurs without correlation.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;945698But - logic dictates causation in this case, and from what was said it was multiple times for multiple products.

I didn't get that impression from what he wrote. It sounded like there was A rulebook and supplements... which started to dip in sales. We'd really need to see dates and numbers... of sales and pirated copies becoming available... as well as take a look at sales on the secondary market. If the book was seen as 'expensive' and sales dipped once people started reselling them... because it's also gotten a whole lot easier to get just about any gaming product on the cheap if you're willing to wait a bit and Ebay it.
So I'm still not seeing it as 'logic' till I have more facts to consider.

I have seen them from time to time yes. I do think it is immoral and short sighted if the item is still in print/monetized elsewhere.

Quote from: David Johansen;945296So, on the one hand it's outright illegal and legally defined as theft.  On the other hand, I have long believed that if someone won't pay $50 for a rule book they probably won't pay $5 for the exact same rulebook if they can get away with paying nothing.

I'm not sure on this one. I got a few of those Pathfinder "Humble Bundles" that legally include dozens of PDFs for under a dollar a book. I would NEVER have paid the list price for them. But I liked them enough that I would have paid $3-5 each for them.

I know that a book/PDF is not the same as other media like DVDs or video games on Steam, but I can't help but wonder how applying some of those sales models would work in the world of RPG PDFs.

Quote from: Simlasa;945700I didn't get that impression from what he wrote. It sounded like there was A rulebook and supplements... which started to dip in sales. We'd really need to see dates and numbers... of sales and pirated copies becoming available... as well as take a look at sales on the secondary market. If the book was seen as 'expensive' and sales dipped once people started reselling them... because it's also gotten a whole lot easier to get just about any gaming product on the cheap if you're willing to wait a bit and Ebay it.
So I'm still not seeing it as 'logic' till I have more facts to consider.

Heck, the so called "data" in this case is so confounded, I can't even tell if the product in question is a hard copy book or a PDF.

Remember when I referred to tiresome debates about stealing shit on the net? Exhibit A.

Quote from: S'mon;945586(BTW I did my PhD on this, I also lecture & research in this area).

The 14+14 standard was from 1709? I am surprised copyright law goes back that far.

Based on your research, how should it be updated for today in consideration of increased life spans?

Quote from: Simlasa;945642Some guys I know will buy, read, MAYBE run a session or two, and then sell a game in pretty quick order.

I've been using eBay as library for two decades now.

I buy, read, maybe use, and often resell (sometimes at a higher price too).
 

Quote from: ArtemisAlpha;945677Our core rulebook moved just shy of 30,000 units in its lifetime. While that doesn't mean that I published the next D&D, I can pretty reliably say that people were interested in the product. When I talk about evergreen sales, I mean that I saw sales dropping on supplements from a reliable high three digits month in and month out.

Thank you for discussing this. What game did you publish?

Quote from: ArtemisAlpha;945677I look at a wildly successful kickstarter, like Wick's 7th Sea, and I wonder where the people who buy books went. It had more than 11,000 backers - and that's a lot less than the first print run for a major game release from my era.

You make a good point.

When was your era? What do you feel has changed?  

What do you think is the way forward for authors, publishers and the hobby?

Quote from: War Rocket Ajax;945701I know that a book/PDF is not the same as other media like DVDs or video games on Steam, but I can't help but wonder how applying some of those sales models would work in the world of RPG PDFs.

What would the sales model look like?

Quote from: Spinachcat;945746The 14+14 standard was from 1709? I am surprised copyright law goes back that far.
Based on your research, how should it be updated for today in consideration of increased life spans?

I don't think increased lifespans are relevant to return on investment or encouraging creation.
I guess there is a case that since Patents went from 14 to 20, copyrights should match that and go to 20 + renewable for another 20. 40 years works out pretty close to some current fixed term rights, some are at 50, though others are 25 years in the EU (eg broadcast right).

But 40 years feels too long to me. EU Design Right has a maximum duration of 25 years and I think that sort of area is in the right ballpark. I would like to see copyright be a ca 20-28 year term, and I think 14+14 has a lot to recommend it. Eg it makes sense for software, where Life + 70 (or in USA 95 years) is insane. The reversion after 14 helps out composers and writers who initially sold their rights for peanuts but then got famous, whereas Life+70 is no help to them when they've sold the rights.

And go back to requiring Registration, but have that be a simple automated service - for a small fee you could upload your work to the copyright office and get an emailed receipt.

Quote from: Spinachcat;945746What would the sales model look like?

Don't we pretty much already have a Steam for RPGs, in the form of Drivethrurpg, Rpgnow, etc?

Quote from: S'mon;945861I don't think increased lifespans are relevant to return on investment or encouraging creation.
I guess there is a case that since Patents went from 14 to 20, copyrights should match that and go to 20 + renewable for another 20. 40 years works out pretty close to some current fixed term rights, some are at 50, though others are 25 years in the EU (eg broadcast right).

I'm not really sure how relevant patent law is to copyright laws despite their similarities.  The two main reasons to limit patent length are

1. To prevent long-term monopolies which would keep prices high.

2. To allow other people to build off of the technology to create new things and advance tech further.

Neither of which are very relevant to copyrights.  Copyrights pretty inherently can't be monopolies because you can't have something which people HAVE to have to be competitive etc.  And you can already build off of things which are copyrighted so long as you aren't too blatant of a copy.  (Ex: Every RPG basically ripping off the basic premise of D&D to some degree.)

Remember - in 1705 they were still basically inventing how copyrights & patents should work.  Weak copyright & patent laws are one of the main reasons that some countries do surprisingly little true innovation.  There's not enough benefit to creators.

QuoteOriginally Posted by Spinachcat
What would the sales model look like?

Quote from: Voros;945862Don't we pretty much already have a Steam for RPGs, in the form of Drivethrurpg, Rpgnow, etc?

Well, I would say the infrastructure is there but the price model isn't.

Starting out at full price until sales dry up, then going to half price, and then to bargain basement price once they have gotten the second sales bump is what I had in mind.

I'm just a consumer and understand it is a different dynamic but asking original retail (or even half that) for a digital copy of products that have been out for 30-40 years seems too high to me.

Got it. I usually wait for anything over $10 to show up on a Bundle of Holding sale.

Quote from: War Rocket Ajax;945895Well, I would say the infrastructure is there but the price model isn't.

Starting out at full price until sales dry up, then going to half price, and then to bargain basement price once they have gotten the second sales bump is what I had in mind.

I'm just a consumer and understand it is a different dynamic but asking original retail (or even half that) for a digital copy of products that have been out for 30-40 years seems too high to me.

Well - software inherently has a shelf-life to some degree as technology passes it by.  Nothing inherently does that for TTRPGs.

Plus TTRPGs have a much smaller market to appeal to, so I'm not sure if it'd be worth it to cut the price to bargain basement to get more people to pick it up. etc.  Also - from what I understand, part of why they do bargain basement for only a few days is the hope that they'll like it and talk it up to their buddies.  For a TTRPG, the buddies can often play with the same PDF - likely given to them by the bargain basement purchaser.

In addition - someone can play the same TTRPG for years, while with a PC game you generally win it, and want to move on.  Other than games which are so old that technology has passed them buy, the other primary major price-cuts come when a game's sequel is about to release (or at least a new game by the same company), hopefully convincing the buys of the cheap game to get the full priced sequel.  Maybe it could even be set up so that you could 'rent' the game for a few bucks, and it would automatically be deleted after a month or so, but the rental cost would go towards the full purchase if you decide that you want to buy it after your rental.  (I know that I've gotten audio-books from the library which have done that - though I have no idea how.)

I'm not saying that the model COULDN'T work, but you can't draw a one-to-one comparison between the two markets.  Maybe the price model could work if there were anti-piracy facets of the Steam for RPGs which made it impossible, or at least difficult, to send copies of the PDF to your friends so that after you talk it up they would actually have to buy it, and likely not at the same bargain basement prices.

I'm not really very concerned.  People who are filesharing are either going to buy the book or they would never have bought the book to begin with, for the most part.  

And frankly, my books are awesome enough, particularly the Dark Albion and Cults of Chaos books that are so gorgeous, that I think anyone who likes the book will totally want to own a hardcopy.

Quote from: RPGPundit;946246I'm not really very concerned.  People who are filesharing are either going to buy the book or they would never have bought the book to begin with, for the most part.  

And frankly, my books are awesome enough, particularly the Dark Albion and Cults of Chaos books that are so gorgeous, that I think anyone who likes the book will totally want to own a hardcopy.

I prefer HARD copy.....I might have an issue....;)

I prefer books you dumb guys.

I haven't seen Cults of Chaos yet, but Dark Albion is a beautiful book.

Definitely reminds me of early Warhammer stuff.

Quote from: Marleycat;946247I prefer HARD copy.....I might have an issue....;)

So...Marleycat likes 'em hard. :D

I am ambivalent on hardcover vs. softcover at the table. I own softcovers that have taken a major beating over decades of heavy use and hardcovers that began to fall apart after a few reads.

But so far, I haven't been happy with tablets at the table for gaming with PDFs. Don't even like it for boardgames.

Based on informal polls I've seen on various RPG forums, most gamers still like actual books at the table, even those who own entire lines on PDF - but that could change in the next decade. Also I don't know how that translates to people who play online via Skype or eTables.

For publishers, the question is how to get more players to buy PDFs or books instead of just relying on the GM to provide them.

Quote from: Marleycat;946247I prefer books you dumb guys.

Hey, there are women on this forum too!

Quote from: Spinachcat;946253Hey, there are women on this forum too!

are there still? Thought they all got driven off about a year ago

Quote from: Justin Alexander;945552This is always such a weird issue of perspective: The primary cost of content remains the actual content regardless of whether it's in print or digital. And you're actually paying more per page for the T&T material.

Its more that the Orient Express stuff is being sold as a PDF at its retail print price. I have this issue with about any PDF of a physical product. And I didnt buy any of the T&T solos when they were at retain price either. FB dropped the PDF prices.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;946254are there still? Thought they all got driven off about a year ago

Was there a cooties outbreak?

We have two members I know from the LA conventions who are female. One mostly lurks, the other posts semi-regularly, but doesn't identify herself because she keeps a low profile on all social media. I would not be surprised she is not alone in her anonymity.

I know of at least one other member who claims to be female - and a deplorable - who has PM'd me during the Age of Electoral Chaos. I do not know them in meatspace so I can't confirm the junk in their pants.

Quote from: Spinachcat;946253I haven't seen Cults of Chaos yet, but Dark Albion is a beautiful book.

Visually? Cults of Chaos is awesome. Full of crazy medieval imagery and such.  None of that is to my credit of course, but to Dominique Crouzet.

The cult generation tables, and mutation tables and such are to my credit, mind you, and they're pretty fucking awesome.

Quote from: RPGPundit;947167Visually? Cults of Chaos is awesome. Full of crazy medieval imagery and such.  None of that is to my credit of course, but to Dominique Crouzet.

The cult generation tables, and mutation tables and such are to my credit, mind you, and they're pretty fucking awesome.

Truth. It is a really cool book.

Quote from: Larsdangly;947172Truth. It is a really cool book.

Thank you! Of course, I repeat, that's all about the genius of Dominique.

Quote from: Omega;946257Its more that the Orient Express stuff is being sold as a PDF at its retail print price.

Retail price for the printed book: $120
Retail price for the PDF: $60
Current PDF price at DrivethruRPG: $42 (it's on sale)

The current president of the United States has been credibly accused of rape or sexual battery by fifteen women.

Stop wringing your hands over getting free D&D shit on the Internet. You are the guy in Caligula's Rome who feels guilty about feeling lustful thoughts about his boss's new slave girl.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;951074The current president of the United States...

(https://i.imgflip.com/1lcuqr.jpg)

Before replying to Just another Snake cult post. If it is about politics take it into Pundit forum. Just be aware the Pundit may or may not close it based on whether it interests him. If I see people talking about Trump in this forum I will move the relevant posts over there. Plus I may make fun of your inability to read clear instructions.

And this is why at the game table we sometimes have to say,

Quote from: rgrove0172;945295Couple years ago, during a shortlived fascination with Pathfinder, I stumbled upon an obscure related website. It was a simple white page titled "index" and included links to dozens of PDFs. Core Rulebooks, adventure modules, campaign books etc. Doing some research I discovered there was a link to almost every product available at that time. These PDFs were going anywhere from $9 to $30, thousands of dollars in material. The Pathfinder Society Adventure Paths alone were worth hundreds.

Extraordinary isn't it? Someone is spending thousands of their own dollars, risking criminal charges and service suspensions, and often paying for network and storage expenses, to freely distribute someone else's work.

Quote from: under_score;945423Thanks to the G+ RPG community being so close, most everything I play now is by authors/artists that I've interacted with and genuinely like.  I can't imagine not paying for their stuff.

Personal accountability is certainly an effective deterrent.

Quote from: Tod13;945424And then you have Mutants and Masterminds that has everything legally online in an SRD, and still makes Gold Seller status on DriveThruRPG for the PDF version.

And Eclipse Phase is Platinum and literally gives their PDFs away for free.

Quote from: Piestrio;945523I've found in my case and the people around me the argument "it's okay to pirate stuff" is inversely proportional to income. In my case I used to torrent stuff quite a bit as a poor collage student but as I moved on and got a job I buy more and more and look askance at piracy. This is also the case with just about everyone I know. The only people I know that still regularly pirate stuff are either poor or just openly greedy.

When you're able to benefit from an economy you're more likely to respect and participate in it.

This is a lesson more economists need to take to heart.

Quote from: ArtemisAlpha;945617Back when I was in the RPG business, we could reliably map a drop in our evergreen sales when the torrents of our products became widespread - so, while this information is more than ten years old now, at the time I could absolutely see a correlation between piracy and lost sales. It's made any claims that piracy is just like advertisement ring hollow to me.

Piracy most certainly affected sales, but at this point it's hard to notice as the market has equalized and RPG sales are drastically lower.

Quote from: estar;945422Also note there are not copyright equivalent of small claims. It not possible to either sue or prosecute an individual infringing an author's copyright if it just a one or two copies. There is the DMCA which allows infringing material to be taken down rather quickly.

DMCA is almost completely useless as anything taken down can be immediately put up again by someone with a new account.

If you report a link via DMCA to Google (for linking to it), they will remove it - but then provide a link to Chilling Effects, that in turn links to the content, and provides notice of your request (often exposing your email address in the process). Quite often the offending sites aren't located in any jurisdiction that would honor a DMCA take down notice.

Draconian methods such as 'three strikes' or requiring major providers to block connections to IP pirating sites seems to be the only way to block casual piracy. Making it illegal with extremely stiff penalties to allow ad networks to generate revenue off of pirate sites might help as well. Removing any profit opportunities would decrease IP theft quite a bit.

Unfortunately, I think the lack of legal protection is one major reason why the software industry is moving to a subscription model. The inability of people to keep their hands off has the consequence that software is becoming monitored and metered.

The subscription model also is more profitable. People may hem and haw about dropping $50, but $5/month is chump change...even after they forget month after month they aren't even using the software they bought.

Quote from: Spinachcat;951526The subscription model also is more profitable. People may hem and haw about dropping $50, but $5/month is chump change...even after they forget month after month they aren't even using the software they bought.

Yes, sadly human psychology favors this model over buying to own, and it's a major factor in the increasing economic inequality we're seeing. Because the %1 all make their money through ownership, not work, so they're unlikely to sell where they can lease instead. And if you don't own something you can't exactly determine what to do with it.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;951132When you're able to benefit from an economy you're more likely to respect and participate in it.

This is a lesson more economists need to take to heart.

What - economists should base their theories around most thieves being poor people?  I thought that that was racist or something.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;951609What - economists should base their theories around most thieves being poor people?  I thought that that was racist or something.

Rich people just have other, fancier, ways of stealing... and the money to pay lawyers to get them off.

Quote from: Simlasa;951635... and the money to pay lawyers to get them off.

I think you mean prostitutes

Ba-DUMP-BUMP

Thanks folks, i'm here all week

Quote from: Spinachcat;951526The subscription model also is more profitable. People may hem and haw about dropping $50, but $5/month is chump change...even after they forget month after month they aren't even using the software they bought.

I agree - and also finding a way (in some industries) to make it palatable to big business.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;951572Yes, sadly human psychology favors this model over buying to own, and it's a major factor in the increasing economic inequality we're seeing. Because the %1 all make their money through ownership, not work, so they're unlikely to sell where they can lease instead. And if you don't own something you can't exactly determine what to do with it.

When it is possible to say no, and adults choose not to, who is to say it is wrong?

I personally find it disturbing that so much tech now is effectively a month-to-month rental service, and to enforce this, tech incorporates communications frameworks that could in turn be used to violate my privacy or remotely take over the hardware I do own.

Quote from: Lynn;951770When it is possible to say no, and adults choose not to, who is to say it is wrong?

I am, when it makes it impossible to say yes.

For example, I can't buy the software/hardware I use anymore even if I wanted to.

Quote from: Lynn;951770I personally find it disturbing that so much tech now is effectively a month-to-month rental service, and to enforce this, tech incorporates communications frameworks that could in turn be used to violate my privacy or remotely take over the hardware I do own.

First book #Amazon ever deleted from people's #Kindles was #1984.

If that didn't send the message, I'm not sure what will.

I don't normally bother weighing in on piracy discussions these days but, fuck it, why not.

I used to pirate fairly frequently years ago, when my income was extremely limited. TV, movies, occasionally PC games, occasionally RPGs. I always endeavoured to pay for stuff that I appreciated, with most of my cash going towards DVDs of TV series I really enjoyed. RPG piracy was limited to stuff that I had an interest in playing, as a try before you buy. To my best recollection, I've never run a game where I didn't obtain the rules legally, although a few of the 3E D&D splats I used I did not own legal copies thereof.

I feel no remorse for my behaviour, as no one was harmed by my actions. My actions were questionable legally, but I have no moral qualms whatsoever about my what I did. My life was enriched, at no cost to anyone else.

As my income increased, so did my expenditure on entertainment. I'm quite happy to pay the NFL Network for access to games in Australia, though I could get them via torrent. I have Netflx and cable. I paid for Pandora, until it started to bore me. I'll happily just throw what available money I have at a content creator I appreciate. I very occasionally still download RPG materials via torrent to check them out, but I'm at least as likely to just buy the pdf, and then also buy the hard copy if I really like it and intend to run it.

I still pirate some music, but more and more I'll pay for it online if I can get it direct from the artist, and I'll gladly buy VIP tickets to a gig to support the band when they're in town, even though I have no particular interest in autographs and meet-and-greets. If VIP tickets aren't available and general admission is cheap, I'll most likely buy merch while I'm there.

The other factor that has increased my volume of legal media consumption is availability. Once I got access to Netflix, movies and TV acquired by torrent dropped almost to zero.

I do, and have always done, everything that I reasonably can to support content creators financially, and I am at peace with my decisions.

Some content creators have this idea that "I made this, so I have the moral right to say what's done with it and how it's distributed." This is simply not true. They have been given a legal right, but there is no inherent moral right that just because you created something, you continue to control it once you make it available to the public. The legal right is an artificial one; one that was not recognised or even considered for most of human history and, if sanity prevails, will not continue to exist in its current form for too much longer.

Quote from: Sable Wyvern;952116Some content creators have this idea that "I made this, so I have the moral right to say what's done with it and how it's distributed." This is simply not true. They have been given a legal right, but there is no inherent moral right that just because you created something, you continue to control it once you make it available to the public. The legal right is an artificial one; one that was not recognised or even considered for most of human history and, if sanity prevails, will not continue to exist in its current form for too much longer.

I disagree about your moral argument but I think much more fundamental is a practical argument. How are authors of a work supposed to make a living if no one pays for it?

Jay Z and Beyonce still makes lots of money under the new model (although not what they would have before) but it is the mid-level and lower artists and authors who are prevented from making a decent living and hence given the opportunity to focus on their art and produce more of it. In books for instance the mid-list is rapidly disappearing.

When it comes to cultural products and the net people talk as if the socialist paradise has arrived but producers of culture still need to feed and clothe themselves, not to mention their families. I wonder how these same internet dreamers will feel when/if the net takes away their capacity to make a living?

There's so much legal free stuff out there that I don't see any need for piracy. Not that there was a real need anyway. I'm not an emaciated beggar on the streets of 1777 Paris who has to choose between dying or swiping a baguette. I'm a guy who sometimes gets bored on a Saturday evening.

With music, I have Spotify and Pandora. Oh no, there are ads, and I have to listen to the album in random order. But compared to the FM radio of my teens (which is still available as well), how can I complain? With respect to RPGs, there are tons of free games online. Want to play D&D?  OSRIC is free. The 5e Basic Rules & SRD are free. Pathfinder's also got a big chunk of free rules. I don't really pay much attention to other games, but it seems there are lots of free non-D&D-like RPGs out there, too. So it's not like you can't kill your Saturday by throwing dice without either spending a small fortune on books or pirating them.

Quote from: Voros;952125I disagree about your moral argument but I think much more fundamental is a practical argument. How are authors of a work supposed to make a living if no one pays for it?

+1

The primary purpose of both patents & copyrights are to encourage people to create new stuff.  Now - arguably they keep the rights for too long, but there is no doubt in my mind that they should exist.

Frankly - that's one of the biggest reasons that some countries have virtually no true inventors.  The people there are just as smart & often iterate current products awesomely - but they have no true new inventions because their country's intellectual property rights suck, so no one is motivated enough to work on it.

I'd argue that a strong intellectual property system is at the heart of how much people innovate.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;952133There's so much legal free stuff out there that I don't see any need for piracy. Not that there was a real need anyway. I'm not an emaciated beggar on the streets of 1777 Paris who has to choose between dying or swiping a baguette. I'm a guy who sometimes gets bored on a Saturday evening.

With music, I have Spotify and Pandora. Oh no, there are ads, and I have to listen to the album in random order. But compared to the FM radio of my teens (which is still available as well), how can I complain? With respect to RPGs, there are tons of free games online. Want to play D&D?  OSRIC is free. The 5e Basic Rules & SRD are free. Pathfinder's also got a big chunk of free rules. I don't really pay much attention to other games, but it seems there are lots of free non-D&D-like RPGs out there, too. So it's not like you can't kill your Saturday by throwing dice without either spending a small fortune on books or pirating them.

But... you don't understand.  They WANT them - and they don't want to pay for them.  That makes them morally superior to some capitalist pig who wants their money.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;952136But... you don't understand.  They WANT them - and they don't want to pay for them.  That makes them morally superior to some capitalist pig who wants their money.

My favorites are the socialists who still want my money for their products. LOL :rolleyes:

Quote from: Tod13;952167My favorites are the socialists who still want my money for their products. LOL :rolleyes:

Well - there are certainly hypocrites of every philosophical stripe.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;952134I'd argue that a strong intellectual property system is at the heart of how much people innovate.

Well, it's a simple fact that entire purpose of those systems was to promote innovation, and for quite a while they did a pretty good job of it. I certainly believe that a sane patent system could continue to promote innovation, as long as it isn't allowed to be crippled by patent trolls and ridiculous, abstract concepts.

I don't believe that copyright as it currently exists today is doing the job it was intended to. It allows some companies to make money pursuing legal claims against copyright infringers, and it offers some protection against large scale, commercial infringement (although a big company can still infringe against the little guy without any real fear of repercussion).

How we continue to promote innovation and the creation of artistic works is an important question. Some options include:

* Patreon and similar schemes that allow for ongoing support.
* Kickstarter and similar schemes that allow for an initial cash investment and confidence that a sensible business plan will allow for all initial costs to be covered and profit to be made.
* The simple ability of creators to make their works easily available to the public, and to make it easy for the public to pay them directly for it, rather than requiring them to negotiate one-sided deals with agents/publishers/labels.
* Educate people to ensure they understand that content creators need support in order to continue creating.
* A basic income system would allow someone who wants to create to create, without worrying about their financial situation (that's clearly not a solution that can be implemented now, but may be the best solution long-term, IMO).

I don't have the answer, but if we're talking about practical realities, the fact is that trying to enforce copyright law against private citizens engaged in infringement for private use does nothing to help content creators.

What a lot of people continue to ignore is that IP Law is not based on inherent moral rights. It's a set of artificial restrictions designed, as many have pointed out, to encourage innovation and content creation. When the system starts to fail, the correct response isn't to immediately defend the system on rigid moral grounds. We need to go back to first principles and ask, "Under the current realities, how do we continue to encourage innovation?"

I agree that the intellectual property system isn't perfect.  But... it's government.  And government screws up everything.  And frankly - it's not as convoluted as some other things they do.

Quote from: Sable Wyvern;952300* A basic income system would allow someone who wants to create to create, without worrying about their financial situation (that's clearly not a solution that can be implemented now, but may be the best solution long-term, IMO).

And here we're going to come to a fierce disagreement.

I knew quite a few people in their teens and early twenties who would have sat on their butts all day if this were around.  Many of them picked themselves up as they aged and are now have decent jobs etc.  But no one would give their resume a second look if it said "age 18-26: sat on butt and played video games" - and they would have been stuck there forever.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;952303And here we're going to come to a fierce disagreement.

I knew quite a few people in their teens and early twenties who would have sat on their butts all day if this were around.  Many of them picked themselves up as they aged and are now have decent jobs etc.  But no one would give their resume a second look if it said "age 18-26: sat on butt and played video games" - and they would have been stuck there forever.

I'm aware that there will be some extremely passionate opposition to the concept, especially on this site. :)

so... I'd rather not make a new thread for this, since it's related to the topic, but I have a very specific scenario in mind:

Let's say, a foreign (non English speaking, for the purposes of this example) game has been out of print for almost 20 years, and the company that produced the game is gone, and some of the copyright holders have expressed a strong desire never to let the game be reprinted or remade (as in, into a second edition) ever again, and have put a stop to all attempts at doing so.

In addition, while the main book, and two supplements, were translated to English, the vast majority of the other books were not.

In this instance, how would you view providing translations of those books, given they were never released, and currently have no real hope of ever being released in English?

The "basic income system" may need to become a reality whether we like it or not. On one hand, we have AI / robotics / automation and on the other hand, we have more babies being born every minute and people living longer. People need to eat, but there might not be work for the people to do. But let's be honest and just call "basic income system" what it is - permanent welfare and living in poverty. Surely that's not going to cause any problems.

As for PDFs, there is so much free stuff. I can't keep up with the DriveThruRPG freebies that I download. I have gigs of unread PDFs. But let's be honest and realize "digital piracy" isn't going away, and those people would never have been customers in the first place.

I also highly suspect the pirates have gigs of "stolen" PDFs, equally unread on their drives.

Quote from: Hastur-The-Unnameable;1035095In this instance, how would you view providing translations of those books, given they were never released, and currently have no real hope of ever being released in English?

Are you selling the translations?

If not, the IP holders don't have any damages so the situation is moot.

Of course, if the original game was any good, the BEST path forward is to retroclone it.

Quote from: Tod13;952167My favorites are the socialists who still want my money for their products. LOL :rolleyes:

"He who would eat, must work." -- Karl Marx.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1035132Are you selling the translations?

If not, the IP holders don't have any damages so the situation is moot.

Of course, if the original game was any good, the BEST path forward is to retroclone it.

No, I would not be selling them, spreading the popularity of an old long discontinued game that I really like is more important to me than any petty profit I could make from selling it.

The reason it hasn't been cloned is likely because while the system itself is fine, the biggest draw is the setting, and the way the mechanics if the game represent that setting. Also, the game is French, and French copyright is really screwy, so it's possible the game's mechanics are also covered under the copyright in some way.

I do know that the Fan Made E-zine that still produces and sells content for this game to this day (also all in French) is apparently legal, so it's hard to say for sure.

Quote from: rgrove0172;945295Has anyone else found these little treasure troves? Do you make use of them? Do you share them with your group or even post links for interested forum buddies?

I have a ton of PDFs from TSR from back when they had them on the Wizards website for free.

I did my phd on moral rights in copyright and have thought about this probably way too much.

I guess my feeling is that if a work is within 14 years of publication, the original Statute of Anne term, or 28 years and in print, then morality argues in favour of not using unauthorised uploads. Exception where you have purchased an authorised copy and want to make use of an e copy - eg I bought hardcopies of the 3e Wilderlands materials, I don't think that morally I should have to pay another large sum for electronic access.

The main thing is that authors deserve a reward for their labours. They don't need or deserve a permanent monopoly.

Quote from: Sable Wyvern;952300I don't have the answer, but if we're talking about practical realities, the fact is that trying to enforce copyright law against private citizens engaged in infringement for private use does nothing to help content creators.

Weaknesses in how 'safe harbor' works for network providers is at the heart of it.

You cannot squeeze money out of people who don't really have it, but you can remove the easiest profits at the distribution level.

Quote from: Sable Wyvern;952300What a lot of people continue to ignore is that IP Law is not based on inherent moral rights. It's a set of artificial restrictions designed, as many have pointed out, to encourage innovation and content creation. When the system starts to fail, the correct response isn't to immediately defend the system on rigid moral grounds. We need to go back to first principles and ask, "Under the current realities, how do we continue to encourage innovation?"

The inherent moral rights regarding 'theft' aren't being extended to intellectual property, which more and more is the only unique value proposition when manufacturing and logistics are easily moved to the lowest cost location in the world. It isn't a new problem, especially when other governments don't view it is a crime (and among those, the ones with lots of manpower but few valuable IP owners) - it is an explosive expansion on 'counterfeit goods'.

But here's the price for that. It is the rental style subscription model. Companies are moving to this model and we are seeing the disappearance of old style 'here's your EULA, enjoy, we'll tell you how much the next upgrade cost is when it arrives', and replaced with 'rent our software, but the moment you stop paying, you cannot access it anymore'. And give that a few more years and then you'll find digital downloads of content will become rental only as well.

Quote from: Hastur-The-Unnameable;1035095In this instance, how would you view providing translations of those books, given they were never released, and currently have no real hope of ever being released in English?

1) You can't without exposing yourself legally.

2) As a society we need to come to a consensus about abandoned works. In the United States the point of copyright is to promote the creation and sharing of creative works. The United State never recognized a inherent right to profit or control creative works except by laws passed by Congress.

Prior to the 70s it was a non-issue as the 26 year term renewable to 52 years wasn't long enough to prevent most works from getting into the public domain where interested parties can preserve them or make them available again on their own initiative. But now that the copyright term is now so long and  technological changes that made some of the medium by which works are shared short-lived it now in a crisis. That various works have been forever lost. Which in the United States is completely contrary to why we have copyright in the first place.

For example look up Jazz recordings from the late 20s and 30s.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1035132Are you selling the translations?

If not, the IP holders don't have any damages so the situation is moot.

Of course, if the original game was any good, the BEST path forward is to retroclone it.

See a lawyer. Why? Because copyright violations can be handled criminally as well as civilly. In general if I copy a page out of a book and hand it out to three people. The dollar amount that can be recovered, or be used as a basis for a criminal charge is effectively zero. However repeated violations can add up along with other legal nuances which makes this extremely bad advice without consulting a IP attorney.

Quote from: S'mon;1035222The main thing is that authors deserve a reward for their labours. They don't need or deserve a permanent monopoly.

Victor Hugo disagrees. He was a bit of an asshole about his works. In part we can blame our present situation on his advocacy.

Quote from: estar;1035236Victor Hugo disagrees. He was a bit of an asshole about his works. In part we can blame our present situation on his advocacy.

Him and the rest of those cheese eating droit d'auteur monkeys! :D

Quote from: Hastur-The-Unnameable;1035144No, I would not be selling them, spreading the popularity of an old long discontinued game that I really like is more important to me than any petty profit I could make from selling it.

The reason it hasn't been cloned is likely because while the system itself is fine, the biggest draw is the setting, and the way the mechanics if the game represent that setting. Also, the game is French, and French copyright is really screwy, so it's possible the game's mechanics are also covered under the copyright in some way.

I do know that the Fan Made E-zine that still produces and sells content for this game to this day (also all in French) is apparently legal, so it's hard to say for sure.

Would that be Ragnarok?

I thought they had released it in a new edition since?

Then theres Polaris which was supposed to have a new edition but not sure what happened to that either.

Quote from: Omega;1035356Would that be Ragnarok?

I thought they had released it in a new edition since?

Then theres Polaris which was supposed to have a new edition but not sure what happened to that either.

No, I'm talking about Agone. I've followed a french site for it for some time, but every attempt at getting a second edition for it has ended in disaster, with the designers abandoning the project in disgust (in one instance, it got so far as having a publisher agree to fund the project and begin publishing, with all the books set and ready to print, before getting shut down by a minority of the copyright holders).

It never caught on in English... It was released during the height of DND open D20, with no marketing to speak of, and just got lost in the milieu of D20 supplements to the point they just scrapped the translation project before even releasing the English version of the Bestiary (which, to my understanding was also in a "finished and ready to print" situation, but it never made it to the presses).

The thing is though, the French version was, and to some extent still is, extremely popular, they even had an actual second printing run for it after the original company went under and a new company inherited some of the rights. They got out their first batch of new core rule books, just before it got canned by the same minority of copyright holders though...

At this point it just kind of feels like this game is cursed...

Quote from: Hastur-The-Unnameable;1035362No, I'm talking about Agone. I've followed a french site for it for some time, but every attempt at getting a second edition for it has ended in disaster, with the designers abandoning the project in disgust (in one instance, it got so far as having a publisher agree to fund the project and begin publishing, with all the books set and ready to print, before getting shut down by a minority of the copyright holders).

It never caught on in English... It was released during the height of DND open D20, with no marketing to speak of, and just got lost in the milieu of D20 supplements to the point they just scrapped the translation project before even releasing the English version of the Bestiary (which, to my understanding was also in a "finished and ready to print" situation, but it never made it to the presses).

The thing is though, the French version was, and to some extent still is, extremely popular, they even had an actual second printing run for it after the original company went under and a new company inherited some of the rights. They got out their first batch of new core rule books, just before it got canned by the same minority of copyright holders though...

At this point it just kind of feels like this game is cursed...

IP based games are allways cursed. This I know from personal experience.

Agone though is still in stock at Troll & Toad for about 8$

Quote from: Omega;1035393IP based games are allways cursed. This I know from personal experience.

Agone though is still in stock at Troll & Toad for about 8$

Oh yes, I know. But the french stuff never will be...

The sad part is just that the original author is super on board with making his stuff into RPGs, it's just the people from the original RPG company that were able to secure rights to the game itself...

Quote from: Hastur-The-Unnameable;1035414The sad part is just that the original author is super on board with making his stuff into RPGs, it's just the people from the original RPG company that were able to secure rights to the game itself...

That is pretty common actually. The IP and the game system are separate things. Example GraphXpress cant use the RPG I did for their comics. And up till a year ago I couldnt even access my own files as theyd been saved to a now dead system and it took some effort to recover the text files. The image files are formatted in a really weird system that was very specific and thus are lost. But no big loss as it was all simple vector style icons. The creator of Insecta is having a similar problem.

The question of "should people fileshare books" is interesting as a philosophical debate, but ultimately irrelevant in real life.
In real life the question is "can the people who fileshare books be stopped"? And the answer is NO.

So the process of what to do from that point on has to be based on THAT reality, rather than fanciful questions of whether you think it's right or not.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1035767The question of "should people fileshare books" is interesting as a philosophical debate, but ultimately irrelevant in real life.
In real life the question is "can the people who fileshare books be stopped"? And the answer is NO.

So the process of what to do from that point on has to be based on THAT reality, rather than fanciful questions of whether you think it's right or not.

I think an author should make some effort to report direct free links to their product found via simple search engine results.

You don't have to stop piracy to make it just inconvenient enough that people with means do buy the product for their group, if they want it.

Players also love physical books, which can't be downloaded for free.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1035779I think an author should make some effort to report direct free links to their product found via simple search engine results.

Yeah you don't even need a site like Demonoid to find games. Just type "PDF" after the name in the search bar and let Google do the work for you. :D

Getting illcit links off of Google search is not hard as people think it is. I filled when I noticed a link to a warez site was the one of the top five result.

Same thing as computer games in the 80's. No copy protection, so you could just copy a full game to another disc. I don't know how many bootlegs of Castle Wolfenstein I've seen.

Quote from: The Black Ferret;1035905Same thing as computer games in the 80's. No copy protection, so you could just copy a full game to another disc. I don't know how many bootlegs of Castle Wolfenstein I've seen.

I don't think  RPG PDFs need DRM. I think they should be hard enough to download that you have to go to a sketchy site or get it from a friend.

That can be achieved with just reporting links to Google or Bing.

That way PDFs get roughly one purchase per group playing it. Then followed by book sales.

Quote from: estar;1035236Victor Hugo disagrees. He was a bit of an asshole about his works. In part we can blame our present situation on his advocacy.

I'd say that any merits he has pale in comparison to Disney's contribution;).

Quote from: RPGPundit;1035767The question of "should people fileshare books" is interesting as a philosophical debate, but ultimately irrelevant in real life.
In real life the question is "can the people who fileshare books be stopped"? And the answer is NO.

So the process of what to do from that point on has to be based on THAT reality, rather than fanciful questions of whether you think it's right or not.

Well, for once we agree:D!
Are you thinking about crowdfunding as a solution to this problem as well?

Quote from: estar;1035889Getting illcit links off of Google search is not hard as people think it is. I filled when I noticed a link to a warez site was the one of the top five result.

That doesn't necessarily remove it entirely. Google removes links but then will usually replace it with a warning that they were required to remove it. Google shares those links with Chilling Effects, which would then - yes - keep the link alive and accessible.

The looseness of the allowance for safe harbor makes it an endless game of whack-a-mole, with many sites complying, only for the same links to be reposted again within a few hours.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1035932I don't think  RPG PDFs need DRM. I think they should be hard enough to download that you have to go to a sketchy site or get it from a friend.

DRM for PDFs can be stripped away.

Much like software moving to a rental model, I see PDFs mostly disappearing (except for stuff you explicitly allow people to print, like character sheets), and "books" part of a subscription system that are never really stored in whole locally. The rental model was as least partially, a response to piracy.

Quote from: Lynn;1035952DRM for PDFs can be stripped away.

Much like software moving to a rental model, I see PDFs mostly disappearing (except for stuff you explicitly allow people to print, like character sheets), and "books" part of a subscription system that are never really stored in whole locally. The rental model was as least partially, a response to piracy.

PDFs won't disappear. Someone can always scan the book in and make a PDF.

All not offering PDFs do is annoy honest consumers who want a PDF version.

I generally don't play RPGs unless I can get a PDF version.
Pinnacle Entertainment Group and 3rd parties would be out a decent amount of my money if they didn't offer PDF versions for Savage Worlds content.

Quote from: Lynn;1035952DRM for PDFs can be stripped away.

Much like software moving to a rental model, I see PDFs mostly disappearing (except for stuff you explicitly allow people to print, like character sheets), and "books" part of a subscription system that are never really stored in whole locally. The rental model was as least partially, a response to piracy.

And, as Rhedyn mentioned, it's only going to annoy paying customers. Personally, I'd refuse to pay for "rental":).
And I can live limiting myself to "just" my current electronic books much more easily than I'd live while paying "rent" for words;).

Quote from: AsenRG;1036008And, as Rhedyn mentioned, it's only going to annoy paying customers. Personally, I'd refuse to pay for "rental":).
And I can live limiting myself to "just" my current electronic books much more easily than I'd live while paying "rent" for words;).

I think the only reason he said things like that is because WotC refuses to sell pdfs for 5e.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1036011I think the only reason he said things like that is because WotC refuses to sell pdfs for 5e.

I think the whole 4e being leaked and distributed before it was released might have had something to do with it.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1036011I think the only reason he said things like that is because WotC refuses to sell pdfs for 5e.

And that changes what, FFS? How long do you think it takes to find an archive with the 5e books in PDF, using something like Bing:D?

Once again, it's only going to annoy paying customers;).

Quote from: Lynn;1035951That doesn't necessarily remove it entirely. Google removes links but then will usually replace it with a warning that they were required to remove it. Google shares those links with Chilling Effects, which would then - yes - keep the link alive and accessible.

The looseness of the allowance for safe harbor makes it an endless game of whack-a-mole, with many sites complying, only for the same links to be reposted again within a few hours.

I know that, I just wanted it off the front page. I also realize that a counter notice means the link is restore and my only recourse at that point is a court order resulting from a lawsuit. However my immediate objective has been achieved so we will see what happens. It highly unlikely google has successfully contacted the website  and the operator is aware of the notice or even cares.

It is about understanding how the system and doing what one can with it.

Quote from: Krimson;1036021I think the whole 4e being leaked and distributed before it was released might have had something to do with it.

And they are thinking with their emotions as a result. Piracy occurs anyway, however far more folks want to buy legitimate PDFs so by not offering PDFs they are leaving money on the table. It not a large amount but it is not chump change anymore either.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1036011I think the only reason he said things like that is because WotC refuses to sell pdfs for 5e.

Probably part of this is piracy, but another part is keeping the game shops alive (though Amazon seems to be doing everything they can to destroy them).

Quote from: AsenRG;1036008And, as Rhedyn mentioned, it's only going to annoy paying customers. Personally, I'd refuse to pay for "rental":). And I can live limiting myself to "just" my current electronic books much more easily than I'd live while paying "rent" for words;).

All it requires is for enough people to buy into the business model, and then the standalone versions disappear, bit by bit, in follow up waves. This is how many tech companies have done it. Amazon already has a 'rental' system now. They don't have to rush to do away with books because that is helping them destroy competition, and there is no motivation for them to hurry. Instead, they grow the rental platform and motivate people with cheap, cheap, cheap costs. Some will rise from our own vertical market, and they will last for a little while until Amazon identifies our vertical market as one that it wants to own.

Our hobby isn't on anyone's immediate radar because it is tiny, but in time, it will.

Sure, you can pledge not to buy into it. There are folks doing that right now in software, but they are drowned out by the many. But it is a losing proposition in the long term without some change to IP law and IP enforcement.

Quote from: estar;1036081Piracy occurs anyway, however far more folks want to buy legitimate PDFs so by not offering PDFs they are leaving money on the table.

I think Paizo's $10 pdfs is the optimum approach. Demanding $50 for a pdf the way eg Frog God tends to do is not good business. I never bought any of their pdfs until they did a Bundle of Holding.

Quote from: estar;1036081And they are thinking with their emotions as a result. Piracy occurs anyway, however far more folks want to buy legitimate PDFs so by not offering PDFs they are leaving money on the table. It not a large amount but it is not chump change anymore either.

Are there many game designers who wouldn't have an emotional reaction to a brand new product being distributed BEFORE the official release? They seem to have a working business model. Maybe they want pirates to work for their booty? Uploading a PDF that's ready to go is a far cry from physically pulling apart a book, scanning each page, formatting the scans to look like the original, and THEN uploading the warez. If a legal action is taken, the person responsible for the latter will have a hard time making excuses.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1036085Probably part of this is piracy, but another part is keeping the game shops alive (though Amazon seems to be doing everything they can to destroy them).

Yeah. It doesn't help that the books I'm into buying aren't carried by FLGS.

But Amazon doesn't seem to sell them either, so pfff. DriveThroughRPG PODs for me then!

Quote from: Krimson;1036099Are there many game designers who wouldn't have an emotional reaction to a brand new product being distributed BEFORE the official release? They seem to have a working business model. Maybe they want pirates to work for their booty? Uploading a PDF that's ready to go is a far cry from physically pulling apart a book, scanning each page, formatting the scans to look like the original, and THEN uploading the warez. If a legal action is taken, the person responsible for the latter will have a hard time making excuses.

Do realize it just takes one obsessed hobbyists to spend a day or two scanning in images of a released book. It not much work for the booty. As for the 4e pre-release they should be focused on how the hell a pre-production PDF got it out of their servers rather punishing their customers by restricting choices.

As for a working business model, it money left on the table. The lack or availability of PDFs doesn't materially effect their other channels except for perhaps D&D Beyond. But even there the value of D&D Beyond isn't throwing text up on your screen but how they integrate the text into various useful tools. With Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds in same space it effectively a moot point to claim that D&D Beyond needs to be the exclusive on-line source of D&D text.

Paizo kicked their ass six-ways while releasing PDFs and open content to boot. The tide shifted back to D&D 5e for a lot of reasons but restricting PDF availability wasn't one of them. With nearly 20 years of having a PDF marketplace for 20 years I think it safe to say that the only thing gain by not supporting PDF is inconveniencing your customers. Maybe there was a point in terms of the return on the labor involved prior to 2008 but since then smartphones and tablets made use of PDFs jump ahead several orders of magnitude.

There is no economic reason that justifies this. Only emotional reasons.

One reason I am aware of the impact of PDF is because of my Blackmarsh. There hardly a day where there isn't at least one copy downloaded from one of the OBS sites like RPGNow. Every transaction is given a unique ID. This means for the past 7 years I can track the relative sales volume that OBS handles.

For example in 2010 there 664,902 transactions handled between Jan 2010 to Jan 2011

For 2017 there were over 2,912,654 transaction handled between Jan 2017 and Jan 2018.

Due to past purchases dating back to the mid 2000s I can get a less accurate count. There appears to be a huge spike between 2007 and 2010 followed by a steady but substantial growth to date.

Blog post (http://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2015/05/some-interesting-rpgnow-number-2014-15.html)
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If you are not offering PDFs you are leaving money on the table.

Quote from: Lynn;1036090All it requires is for enough people to buy into the business model, and then the standalone versions disappear, bit by bit, in follow up waves.

And then I won't buy anything new. Having hundreds of systems already, I doubt I'd miss that much:).

QuoteThis is how many tech companies have done it. Amazon already has a 'rental' system now. They don't have to rush to do away with books because that is helping them destroy competition, and there is no motivation for them to hurry. Instead, they grow the rental platform and motivate people with cheap, cheap, cheap costs. Some will rise from our own vertical market, and they will last for a little while until Amazon identifies our vertical market as one that it wants to own.

Our hobby isn't on anyone's immediate radar because it is tiny, but in time, it will.

So;)? You think that would stop pirates? Or prevent new competition from releasing their games in PDF?
The DIY ethos is too strong in our hobby for it to be suppressed;).

QuoteSure, you can pledge not to buy into it. There are folks doing that right now in software, but they are drowned out by the many.

Maybe I'll be in their position. Given that I'm currently writing this from a PC powered by Linux, seems likely:D!

QuoteBut it is a losing proposition in the long term without some change to IP law and IP enforcement.

Right, and refusing to support financially people that try new models that leave the customers worse-off is one very small step towards such changes;)!

Quote from: AsenRG;1036217And then I won't buy anything new. Having hundreds of systems already, I doubt I'd miss that much:).

You won't be a part of the driving force of this model, but neither are the tiny numbers of Adobe CC users who haven't upgraded to 'rental' CC.

Difficulty matters. It doesn't need to be impossible to pirate, just difficult enough so that 90% of the people who type "D&D player's handbook PDF" don't come up with what they want after five minutes of effort.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1036334Difficulty matters. It doesn't need to be impossible to pirate, just difficult enough so that 90% of the people who type "D&D player's handbook PDF" don't come up with what they want after five minutes of effort.

I just checked - took about 15 seconds to type the search term into Google and have the scanned pdf download from some Russian* site. I think 5 minutes actually would deter a lot of people.

*Clearly part of their conspiracy to destroy the West and pollute our precious bodily fluids.

Quote from: estar;1036117There is no economic reason that justifies this. Only emotional reasons.

Does anyone know who made this decision in the first place? I tried Googling but I can't find a definitive answer. I wonder if executive meddling, possible from Hasbro, could be a factor?

Quote from: S'mon;1036343I just checked - took about 15 seconds to type the search term into Google and have the scanned pdf download from some Russian* site. I think 5 minutes actually would deter a lot of people.

*Clearly part of their conspiracy to destroy the West and pollute our precious bodily fluids.

"Only available at allofwarez.nomalware.wepromise.ru" is deterrent enough for me!

Quote from: Krimson;1036365Does anyone know who made this decision in the first place? I tried Googling but I can't find a definitive answer. I wonder if executive meddling, possible from Hasbro, could be a factor?

Mind you it just reading in between the lines, but I think it wrapped up in the politics of the premature release of 4e and the antipathy one faction has towards the d20 SRD and open game license. I get the feeling Mearls is walking a bit of tightrope in that regard.

Keep in mind the main issue with anything involving D&D RPGs is that it is a niche within a company devoted to mass marketing toys and similar leisure products. The only reason is that Hasbro is involved is that Magic the Gathering put Wizards on Habro's radar. So D&D is very much subjected to the whims of a handful of people. Unlike Magic where decisions are probably sliced and diced into the thinnest layers through numerous meetings.

Something like this

Boss: So what happening with D&D?

Staffer with an axe to grind: We have serious issue with piracy. (Note Everybody has serious issues with piracy).

Boss: What we can do about.

Staffer with an axe to grind: launches into a semi-detailed presentation that amount to recommending a total lockdown of all D&D digital content and throw in magic branding buzzwords.

Other Staffer who more savvy: Tries to explain that piracy it always a problem but we gain more from having digital content readily available. Sounds weak and insecure compared to the branding strategy and lockdown proposal.

Boss to Staffer with axe to grind: OK pull the PDFs, implement the branding strategy for digital content.

(Many years later)

Boss to Staff with axe to grind: Why are revenues and traffic so shitty from your program.
Staff with axe to grind: Well urrm, you see...
Other Staffer jumps in: Well if you see five years ago our revenue from OBS PDF sales were X and the revenue we get from the branding strategy doesn't begin to compare.
Staff with axe to grind: But wait VTTs are a thing and and  I got this other group who can pull off a digital D&D site (DnD Beyond). We don't want our latest stuff (5e) out there.
Boss: OK re-release the older products as PDF, we will go with the VTTs and Beyond for the current edition.
Boss; What are we doing for Magic this quarter (and spend the next two hours on that).

Quote from: AsenRG;1035938Well, for once we agree:D!
Are you thinking about crowdfunding as a solution to this problem as well?

Ultimately, yes.

Quote from: estar;1036631Mind you it just reading in between the lines, but I think it wrapped up in the politics of the premature release of 4e and the antipathy one faction has towards the d20 SRD and open game license. I get the feeling Mearls is walking a bit of tightrope in that regard.

Keep in mind the main issue with anything involving D&D RPGs is that it is a niche within a company devoted to mass marketing toys and similar leisure products. The only reason is that Hasbro is involved is that Magic the Gathering put Wizards on Habro's radar. So D&D is very much subjected to the whims of a handful of people. Unlike Magic where decisions are probably sliced and diced into the thinnest layers through numerous meetings.

Something like this

Boss: So what happening with D&D?

Staffer with an axe to grind: We have serious issue with piracy. (Note Everybody has serious issues with piracy).

Boss: What we can do about.

Staffer with an axe to grind: launches into a semi-detailed presentation that amount to recommending a total lockdown of all D&D digital content and throw in magic branding buzzwords.

Other Staffer who more savvy: Tries to explain that piracy it always a problem but we gain more from having digital content readily available. Sounds weak and insecure compared to the branding strategy and lockdown proposal.

Boss to Staffer with axe to grind: OK pull the PDFs, implement the branding strategy for digital content.

(Many years later)

Boss to Staff with axe to grind: Why are revenues and traffic so shitty from your program.
Staff with axe to grind: Well urrm, you see...
Other Staffer jumps in: Well if you see five years ago our revenue from OBS PDF sales were X and the revenue we get from the branding strategy doesn't begin to compare.
Staff with axe to grind: But wait VTTs are a thing and and  I got this other group who can pull off a digital D&D site (DnD Beyond). We don't want our latest stuff (5e) out there.
Boss: OK re-release the older products as PDF, we will go with the VTTs and Beyond for the current edition.
Boss; What are we doing for Magic this quarter (and spend the next two hours on that).

Boss: Okay, let's forget about penny ante D&D for a moment. Guess who owns Power Rangers now?

Are we expecting a Power Rangers RPG?

Quote from: RPGPundit;1037464Are we expecting a Power Rangers RPG?

Renegade games studios got a license from Saban to make Power Ranges "tabletop games" of an undisclosed nature for the 25th anniversary this year. There is speculation that it might be an RPG because there was a "cryptic tweet from [a power rangers RPG Twitch live stream called Power Rangers Hyperforce] parent company, Hyper RPG, announcing a Power Rangers partnership with Renegade Game Studios."

Here's a link to the article: https://www.powerrangersnow.com/power-rangers-tabletop-games-announced/

Of course, Renegade games studios isn't Hasbro, so take of that what you will.

Quote from: Hastur-The-Unnameable;1037477Renegade games studios got a license from Saban to make Power Ranges "tabletop games" of an undisclosed nature for the 25th anniversary this year. There is speculation that it might be an RPG because there was a "cryptic tweet from [a power rangers RPG Twitch live stream called Power Rangers Hyperforce] parent company, Hyper RPG, announcing a Power Rangers partnership with Renegade Game Studios."

Here's a link to the article: https://www.powerrangersnow.com/power-rangers-tabletop-games-announced/

Of course, Renegade games studios isn't Hasbro, so take of that what you will.

I was referencing Hasbro outright buying the property. LINK (https://io9.gizmodo.com/hasbro-just-bought-the-power-rangers-entire-franchise-f-1825679658)

It would be pretty odd if Hasbro ended up with the IP but someone other than WoTC ended up making the RPG.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1037845It would be pretty odd if Hasbro ended up with the IP but someone other than WoTC ended up making the RPG.

Hasbro owns My Little Pony and the RPG was made by Shinobi 7. I wouldn't be surprised if a future Power Rangers RPG was produced by Shinobi 7. At this time there is no impending Power Rangers RPG because I think the purchase of the property is less than a week old. I was never a fan, having only watched the show on mornings I was up early in the morning getting ready for work. That said, if Hasbro did enlist WoTC to make a Power Rangers RPG which used some sort of D&D/5e mechanic, I would likely buy it as soon as I saw it. :D

Quote from: RPGPundit;1037845It would be pretty odd if Hasbro ended up with the IP but someone other than WoTC ended up making the RPG.

Something like this can happen if they thought the project would offend a segment of their customers if they made it and branded it themselves.

An extreme example of this are companies that make a lot of money off of the porn industry. They don't want to market to the porn industry because the appearance of doing so can come back to bite them.

A much funnier one are famous actors that began doing TV commercials in Japan - they thought those TV commercials would never come back to 'bite' them later, like so many did when Youtube came along.

Also, a small company can also get a license for X # of years, take the risk, and prove the market. If it ends up being a success without much effort, then the IP owner can later kill it off and launch their own.

Yes, I guess I could see that happening.