Quote from: Lynn;1035952DRM for PDFs can be stripped away.

Much like software moving to a rental model, I see PDFs mostly disappearing (except for stuff you explicitly allow people to print, like character sheets), and "books" part of a subscription system that are never really stored in whole locally. The rental model was as least partially, a response to piracy.

And, as Rhedyn mentioned, it's only going to annoy paying customers. Personally, I'd refuse to pay for "rental".
And I can live limiting myself to "just" my current electronic books much more easily than I'd live while paying "rent" for words;).

Quote from: AsenRG;1036008And, as Rhedyn mentioned, it's only going to annoy paying customers. Personally, I'd refuse to pay for "rental".
And I can live limiting myself to "just" my current electronic books much more easily than I'd live while paying "rent" for words;).

I think the only reason he said things like that is because WotC refuses to sell pdfs for 5e.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1036011I think the only reason he said things like that is because WotC refuses to sell pdfs for 5e.

I think the whole 4e being leaked and distributed before it was released might have had something to do with it.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1036011I think the only reason he said things like that is because WotC refuses to sell pdfs for 5e.

And that changes what, FFS? How long do you think it takes to find an archive with the 5e books in PDF, using something like Bing:D?

Once again, it's only going to annoy paying customers;).

Quote from: Lynn;1035951That doesn't necessarily remove it entirely. Google removes links but then will usually replace it with a warning that they were required to remove it. Google shares those links with Chilling Effects, which would then - yes - keep the link alive and accessible.

The looseness of the allowance for safe harbor makes it an endless game of whack-a-mole, with many sites complying, only for the same links to be reposted again within a few hours.

I know that, I just wanted it off the front page. I also realize that a counter notice means the link is restore and my only recourse at that point is a court order resulting from a lawsuit. However my immediate objective has been achieved so we will see what happens. It highly unlikely google has successfully contacted the website  and the operator is aware of the notice or even cares.

It is about understanding how the system and doing what one can with it.

Quote from: Krimson;1036021I think the whole 4e being leaked and distributed before it was released might have had something to do with it.

And they are thinking with their emotions as a result. Piracy occurs anyway, however far more folks want to buy legitimate PDFs so by not offering PDFs they are leaving money on the table. It not a large amount but it is not chump change anymore either.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1036011I think the only reason he said things like that is because WotC refuses to sell pdfs for 5e.

Probably part of this is piracy, but another part is keeping the game shops alive (though Amazon seems to be doing everything they can to destroy them).

Quote from: AsenRG;1036008And, as Rhedyn mentioned, it's only going to annoy paying customers. Personally, I'd refuse to pay for "rental". And I can live limiting myself to "just" my current electronic books much more easily than I'd live while paying "rent" for words;).

All it requires is for enough people to buy into the business model, and then the standalone versions disappear, bit by bit, in follow up waves. This is how many tech companies have done it. Amazon already has a 'rental' system now. They don't have to rush to do away with books because that is helping them destroy competition, and there is no motivation for them to hurry. Instead, they grow the rental platform and motivate people with cheap, cheap, cheap costs. Some will rise from our own vertical market, and they will last for a little while until Amazon identifies our vertical market as one that it wants to own.

Our hobby isn't on anyone's immediate radar because it is tiny, but in time, it will.

Sure, you can pledge not to buy into it. There are folks doing that right now in software, but they are drowned out by the many. But it is a losing proposition in the long term without some change to IP law and IP enforcement.

Quote from: estar;1036081Piracy occurs anyway, however far more folks want to buy legitimate PDFs so by not offering PDFs they are leaving money on the table.

I think Paizo's $10 pdfs is the optimum approach. Demanding $50 for a pdf the way eg Frog God tends to do is not good business. I never bought any of their pdfs until they did a Bundle of Holding.

Quote from: estar;1036081And they are thinking with their emotions as a result. Piracy occurs anyway, however far more folks want to buy legitimate PDFs so by not offering PDFs they are leaving money on the table. It not a large amount but it is not chump change anymore either.

Are there many game designers who wouldn't have an emotional reaction to a brand new product being distributed BEFORE the official release? They seem to have a working business model. Maybe they want pirates to work for their booty? Uploading a PDF that's ready to go is a far cry from physically pulling apart a book, scanning each page, formatting the scans to look like the original, and THEN uploading the warez. If a legal action is taken, the person responsible for the latter will have a hard time making excuses.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1036085Probably part of this is piracy, but another part is keeping the game shops alive (though Amazon seems to be doing everything they can to destroy them).

Yeah. It doesn't help that the books I'm into buying aren't carried by FLGS.

But Amazon doesn't seem to sell them either, so pfff. DriveThroughRPG PODs for me then!

Quote from: Krimson;1036099Are there many game designers who wouldn't have an emotional reaction to a brand new product being distributed BEFORE the official release? They seem to have a working business model. Maybe they want pirates to work for their booty? Uploading a PDF that's ready to go is a far cry from physically pulling apart a book, scanning each page, formatting the scans to look like the original, and THEN uploading the warez. If a legal action is taken, the person responsible for the latter will have a hard time making excuses.

Do realize it just takes one obsessed hobbyists to spend a day or two scanning in images of a released book. It not much work for the booty. As for the 4e pre-release they should be focused on how the hell a pre-production PDF got it out of their servers rather punishing their customers by restricting choices.

As for a working business model, it money left on the table. The lack or availability of PDFs doesn't materially effect their other channels except for perhaps D&D Beyond. But even there the value of D&D Beyond isn't throwing text up on your screen but how they integrate the text into various useful tools. With Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds in same space it effectively a moot point to claim that D&D Beyond needs to be the exclusive on-line source of D&D text.

Paizo kicked their ass six-ways while releasing PDFs and open content to boot. The tide shifted back to D&D 5e for a lot of reasons but restricting PDF availability wasn't one of them. With nearly 20 years of having a PDF marketplace for 20 years I think it safe to say that the only thing gain by not supporting PDF is inconveniencing your customers. Maybe there was a point in terms of the return on the labor involved prior to 2008 but since then smartphones and tablets made use of PDFs jump ahead several orders of magnitude.

There is no economic reason that justifies this. Only emotional reasons.

One reason I am aware of the impact of PDF is because of my Blackmarsh. There hardly a day where there isn't at least one copy downloaded from one of the OBS sites like RPGNow. Every transaction is given a unique ID. This means for the past 7 years I can track the relative sales volume that OBS handles.

For example in 2010 there 664,902 transactions handled between Jan 2010 to Jan 2011

For 2017 there were over 2,912,654 transaction handled between Jan 2017 and Jan 2018.

Due to past purchases dating back to the mid 2000s I can get a less accurate count. There appears to be a huge spike between 2007 and 2010 followed by a steady but substantial growth to date.

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If you are not offering PDFs you are leaving money on the table.

Quote from: Lynn;1036090All it requires is for enough people to buy into the business model, and then the standalone versions disappear, bit by bit, in follow up waves.

And then I won't buy anything new. Having hundreds of systems already, I doubt I'd miss that much:).

QuoteThis is how many tech companies have done it. Amazon already has a 'rental' system now. They don't have to rush to do away with books because that is helping them destroy competition, and there is no motivation for them to hurry. Instead, they grow the rental platform and motivate people with cheap, cheap, cheap costs. Some will rise from our own vertical market, and they will last for a little while until Amazon identifies our vertical market as one that it wants to own.

Our hobby isn't on anyone's immediate radar because it is tiny, but in time, it will.

So;)? You think that would stop pirates? Or prevent new competition from releasing their games in PDF?
The DIY ethos is too strong in our hobby for it to be suppressed;).

QuoteSure, you can pledge not to buy into it. There are folks doing that right now in software, but they are drowned out by the many.

Maybe I'll be in their position. Given that I'm currently writing this from a PC powered by Linux, seems likely:D!

QuoteBut it is a losing proposition in the long term without some change to IP law and IP enforcement.

Right, and refusing to support financially people that try new models that leave the customers worse-off is one very small step towards such changes;)!

Quote from: AsenRG;1036217And then I won't buy anything new. Having hundreds of systems already, I doubt I'd miss that much:).

You won't be a part of the driving force of this model, but neither are the tiny numbers of Adobe CC users who haven't upgraded to 'rental' CC.