Now before Ben yells at me for #1, posting stuff from another site, and #2 posting Frank, who he hates with a passion, there is a point I will get to.  Anyway, here's his take.

Quote from: Frank TrollmanSo I've stated that 5e is Vaporware. I'm pretty sure of it. The more of the release teasers I see, the more convinced I am. Why should you be convinced that 5e D&D is a Vaporware Product? It goes to who is making it, what they've said about what they are making, what they've made recently and in the past, and so on.

First, let's look at the track record of Mike Mearls. Remember when he fixed Skill Challenges? Sorry, remember the first seven times that he announced that he was fixing skill challenges? Remember Iron Heroes? The man has a history, going back several years and literally dozens of instances, of announcing with great fanfare that he was going to make a new subsystem, then announcing the subsystem was ready for publication, then announcing that criticism of that subsystem was unfair because it "wasn't really finished" and he was "working on something new and exciting".

Fool me once, shame on me, fool me twenty eight times, what the fucking fuck?

Now 5th edition is supposed to be layer upon layer of Mike Mearls blessed subsystem. Each one done up to the specifications of a different section of the fanbase. Each one interacting in some odd way with all the others, but every one of them optional. So, for example: if you make a cogent condemnation of the way they track movement or durations or whatever, they can claim openly that this version is "not for you" and is nebulously for some other group and obviously you should be using some other movement or duration tracking subsystem instead.

They have announced a platform that is perfectly suited for denial in depth of non-functionality. In order to show that there is a problem to the satisfaction of their ability to not simply dismiss it for you supposedly not being the target audience, you'd have to do each separate variant together. And then they could dismiss your complaint for being TL;DR.

In short: they've made an edition that would take months or years to expose as vaporware and the project leader is a man who has made nothing but vaporware since Kerry was running for president. And his second in command is a man who hired out his name to promote that guy's actual Vaporware in 2005. Remember: it was originally called "Monte Cook Presents: Iron Heroes" when it was originally released and sold for real money despite the fact that none of the subsystems worked properly and even Mike Mearls admitted that the magic system was just a draft taken from a brainstorming session. The number three guy is Bruce Cordell, who apparently didn't read any of the rules or setting material for 4th edition before writing rules and setting material for 4th edition. In short: a man whose design work has been literally monkeys on typewriters style vaporware paycheck writing for at least four years.

So the entire core group of authors have a clearly demonstrated history of making vaporware, and the hype is completely consistent with and even suggests a vaporware product. But how do we know that this is actually vaporware? Well, there are clues.

Let's talk about they admit they haven't done: higher levels and hard numbers. That's... the entire design. It's a level based system, therefore if you haven't tested the leveling or the system, you haven't actually done anything. They are already putting up sign-ups for beta testers, but their actual product has been admitted to being in a pre-alpha state.

Now let's talk about the things they've promised. They have promised that a character who gets pure numbers will be balanced with a character who gets abilities instead. We already know that's impossible, because we've played BESM and Champions. So we know we're being promised things that we know can't be implemented. Either they know that they can't really deliver and are jerking our chain because it's Vaporware, or they haven't actually gotten far enough down the design rabbit hole to recognize that fact, because it is fucking Vaporware.

Now let's talk about the things they've actually shown people: Magical Teaparty. MTP, all the way down. The actions people took at the D&DXP were not on the character sheets, the DMs did not have DC charts. The DMs used their judgment to determine whether actions succeeded or failed. The actual game system, if there was one, was not used.


Now let's get into the "how did we get to this point?" part. In short: job security. WotC has held Christmas Layoffs every year (except last year, when the layoffs were in early Summer) for as long as they have been owned by Hasbro. The head of 4th edition D&D has been fired every year since 4th edition D&D was created. It's entirely possible that the people left at WotC believe that the only way they can keep their jobs is by releasing a faulty product that needs to be patched so that they will be retained. It's possible that they believe that their jobs are completely unrelated to their performance and that they will probably have to go look for work in the near future and are simply phoning it in.

Regardless of the motivations on the ground, it is clear that having an office filled entirely with new blood means that there is no process. There are no working relationships or project schedules, because heads roll too often for a corporate culture to actually show up. A half-assed, overly ambitious project is probably inevitable with a core set of demoralized hacks who are already looking for a new job leading a group of untested fanboys who don't know what they are doing.

But the promises being made for 5e are on the face of it absurd, the people in charge have a long and storied history of booting projects out the door in a totally nonfunctional state, they lack enough confidence in their mechanics to actually use them, and they've admitted that they haven't even tried to do so in-house. This is what Vaporware looks like.

Now the bolded part is what I am interested in, because I was thinking it myself.  I think a lot of people are saying the preview seems old school because the GMs were just winging it.  They were making rulings without really any rules behind them other then the core "roll to hit", "roll to damage".  Any of us could basically do the same thing with any system if we wanted to.

I have no problem with this. You provided a context and a thought of your own to spark the conversation. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever.

And Frank Trollman is totally full of shit, as usual, by the way.

Outta curiosity, who the hell is this guy anyway?

Onto the actual meat - I think he is a bit delusional with 5e being vaporware illusion created just that WotC can save jobs. If such was true, they probably would've run another 4e line, as it'd be just cheaper then a brand new line and dealing with the fallout etc. etc.

Then again, in the sea of rubbish that this post is, he raises an interesting point somewhat - that indeed, so far the WotC has been catering very, very directly to the old school crowd. It's a rather interesting motion how much they want their "prodigal sons" to return home.

Perhaps this is a money problem. The "old schoolers" had grown up, they have about 30 - 50 years now. They have their own money, as they work, and they can spend it on the hobby. The age that 4e was marketted - the 15 - 25 range, are people who are mostly at school & college/university etc. etc. People who are too busy either educating themselves, or usually making it in small jobs, to have money to spend on frivolities such as RPG books.

he's mad because people improvised.  tee hee!

Does he actually know what Vaporware means?

So who is this guy anyway. Or it's just "people on the Internet saying stuff".

Quote from: CRKrueger;513293Now the bolded part is what I am interested in, because I was thinking it myself.  I think a lot of people are saying the preview seems old school because the GMs were just winging it.

I don't think "vaporware" means whatever the heck it is Trollman thinks it means, but I would tend to agree that:

(1) Anyone having an opinion about what 5E is or isn't at this point is just kidding themselves. There's nothing to have an opinion about.

(2) These specific comments about the new edition remind me very, very strongly of what we were hearing about skill challenges before 4th Edition came out: How flexible they were in play; how the DM could do almost anything with them; yada yada yada. And then the actual skill challenge system was a poorly balanced mess that mandated a railroad.

Which, ultimately, leads me in a big loop back to #1: There's absolutely nothing to have an opinion about. Even if you were sitting at the tables playing the game at DDXP there's nothing to have an opinion about.

Although, I will say this: Mike Mearls, Monte Cook, and Bruce Cordell have designed some of my favorite adventures of the past 15 years. But with the exception of Cook's work on the original 3.0 core rulebooks, I haven't been a real fan of any of the mechanical design work they've done. So I think there's good cause to be skeptical.

Quote from: Rincewind1;513300So who is this guy anyway. Or it's just "people on the Internet saying stuff".

He's very active (runs?) the Gaming Den. He's basically the self-crowned king of the armchair theorists.

Quote from: Rincewind1;513300So who is this guy anyway. Or it's just "people on the Internet saying stuff".

He is a poster here. I'm sure this thread will summon him.

BTW I don't "hate" Frank. I think he is a moron full of himself with zero experience of actual play, an obsession with rules taken in a complete vacuum, and a hatred of Mike Mearls that makes me suspect he is just jealous he could not get his jobs and opportunities for reasons that completely elude him, but I don't "hate" the guy, no.

I can't fault his hatred for Mearls.  Because fuck that guy.

Fuck Cook too.  I haven't bought shit with either of those names since the first time they fooled me.

Cordell?  His last good work was in 2001.

Even if he's hit-and-miss (to say the least) on other subjects, Frank knows his games.

That said, it's way too early to label 5e vaporware, even if that word applies.

What *is* the word for a tabletop RPG that's announced and developed but never, ever, materializes? Because if 5e never happens, it would be the equivalent to vaporware, which usually applies to software (as in, PC games) that never comes to market. As it is, 5e has only been in development a matter of months, with no reason to believe it will be/could be 'cancelled', so I just can't see calling it vaporware just yet. There's nothing developed as yet.

FWIW, I still have a few t-shirts from E3 from various vaporware games (if they'd spent more money on development, and less on t-shirts...). Vaporware isn't nearly as common nowadays, since download sites means there isn't much of an obstacle to taking a game commercial.

I've never understood Trollman or his followers. Why talk so extensively about RPGs if you virulently hate each and every one that has ever been written? Actually, scratch that, now he's criticizing one that hasn't even been written yet.

He also seems to have difficulty with the term "Vaporware" as he doesn't even keep his (wrong) definition of it consistent throughout the article.

Quote from: Benoist;513304and a hatred of Mike Mearls that makes me suspect he is just jealous he could not get his jobs and opportunities for reasons that completely elude him

I've only personally known a few individuals offline who were very vocal about their virulent hatred, concerning a particular person, place, and/or "thing".

The commonality I've notice amongst these particular individuals, was that they truly believed (in their own minds) that the world revolved around themselves, and that everybody else was "conspiring" against them.  Anything or anybody that was a threat to their ego (whether real or perceived), was always a target of their virulent hatred.

Frequently these individuals would create their own enemy "targets", regardless of whether their "targets" are even aware of these individuals' existence.  Essentially it was a form of "unrequited hate".  What was hilarious was when the targets of their virulent hatred, responded with "Who's that?"

Frank Trollman posts something petulant and verbose, news at 11:00.