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Greetings!

Long ago, I got rid of the ubiquitous "Common" tongue found in D&D. I found that having the "Common" tongue essentially made other languages irrelevant. Of course, having access to the spell, *Comprehend Languages* or the spell, *Tongues* also accomplishes that, too. However, by getting rid of the "Common" tongue, that also puts a premium even more so on such spells and magical items and effects which allow the comprehension of different foreign languages, whether of various ethnic and cultural languages, or entirely different racial languages. Now, having a Wizard along that is fortunate to possess such a spell in their spellbook is a particular boon to not just the Wizard, but the whole adventuring party.

Beyond that, getting rid of the "Common" tongue has now revitalized various different lands and kingdoms, placing an enhanced importance on especially valuable regional languages--which then provides a very nice incentive for the Player Characters to seek out language specialists so as to learn new regional languages, or other obscure languages from diverse cultures, as well as the many strange languages of different barbarian tribes, or the languages of some fantastic culture or race of humanoids. In the meantime, having no such "Common" language to provide the ability for everyone to communicate freely with anyone and everyone else has restored a more historical feel to the campaign compared to the campaigns I ran long ago where such a "Common" language was de riguer. This kind of ancient world feel and enhanced verisimilitude has also brought into another dimension--the historical and cultural significance of having companions that are skilled in language "X"--as well as the frequent necessity of hiring interpreters and special cultural guides, that are fluent in particular languages, as well as being well-versed in the lore of different tribes and cultures, and the impact such has not only on the language specifically, but a range of different dynamics and nuances in all kinds of social interactions.

In addition, having a campaign dynamic where no "Common" language exists, and giving rise to enhanced cultural education and diverse skills in languages has brought a particular interest in acquiring various texts, books, and scrolls, as well as when the party encounters ancient inscriptions within dungeon ruins, ancient temples, or within foreign palaces and fortresses. Such campaign dynamics have also placed a significant prominence and value upon skilled translators and other specialized academic professions.

I think getting rid of the "Common" tongue has created a huge dimension of depth and enhanced everyone's enjoyment in many different ways. Admittedly, having no such "Common" tongue known by everyone has on occasion created communication obstacles and also presented some "Story flow" challenges--but with some extra thought and care in preparation on my part, as well as preparation, flexibility, and open-mindedness on the Player's part, such challenges are easily overcome and dealt with successfully. I think having a campaign that is free from having the "Common" tongue has been a very worthwhile and meaningful dynamic to embrace for the campaign as a whole.

What are your thoughts on such languages and the "Common" tongue dynamic? Have you done something similar in your own campaigns? How have your players responded to such dynamics in the game world?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Common works in limited doses. Eberron, for example, uses Common to represent the tongue of Galifar, the now-fallen kingdom (really an empire) that broke up and led to a century of war that set the current political boundaries of the focal continent for most games in that world. However, Common was not the "common tongue" of this continent in the distant past (that was Goblin), nor of the other continents on the world, nor of other planes in that setting. In essence, Common = Galifarian Common in Eberron.  IIRC, didn't Greyhawk have its Common based upon the tongue of the Great Kingdom?

I haven't delved too deeply into such changes, mostly out of expediency and laziness, but the default assumption in my games over the years has become that the "common" tongue (in the universalist sense typically used in D&D) does not exist, only regional languages that might be more common than others (so technically there might be multiple "common" tongues that vary by region). So communicating with people from other regions is not a simple task and always requires either a translator or learning a new language. PCs from distant regions must select the dominant language spoken in whatever region the campaign will be set as one of their starting languages.

One of challenges of emphasizing such details, however, is the limited allotment of skill points or proficiency slots available, depending on edition, at least when playing D&D. Which can place too much strain on players when deciding between background skills required for their concept or learning a new language. One advantage of 5e is that it includes optional rules for PCs learning new languages in their down time by dedicating a significant amount of time and money with a tutor. That provides a significant amount of flexibility when dealing with campaigns where numerous languages exist and are an important feature of the word.

One thing I've been considering for a while is to change the old "language" skill or proficiency (particularly in systems where language is treated as a skill) into a universal "Linguistics" skill used when attempting to communicate with people speaking unfamiliar languages. Difficulty could be set based on how unfamiliar individual characters are with any given language, as well as the complexity of the concepts exchanged. And rolls could also be made when attempting to learn a new language as well, making their learning speed dependent on a skill roll.

I got this idea from the old West Games Star Wars RPG, where language works that way, under the assumption that the number of languages is so vast throughout the galaxy, it wouldn't be practical to learn each language individually. My take would be that the Linguistics skill wouldn't allow you to speak a language you don't know outright, but rather that it allows you to understand each other through crude gestures and fragments of words and expressions you manage to pick up throughout your exchange. Making at least some degree of communication with new cultures possible, at least for dedicated language scholars skilled in Linguistics.

It's something I've explored occasionally.

I big part of making it work is having a game / setting that allows for more mundane challenges. If all the quests revolve around fighting huge dragons then having to find an interpreter to help you buy food can feel like it's getting in the way of the 'real' fun.

If the game is more gritty and down to earth then these details add to the overall challenge. Just travelling to the next city state is an adventure in itself.

I rename Common for each campaign, but everybody speaks English on Star Trek because while a myriad of languages does add complexity and verisimilitude, it's also a pain in the ass in actual play.

I've done the "everybody in the party must have one language in common" many times, but its just easier to default to "Trade Tongue" or "Main Kingdom Language" which is just another version of Common.

Classic Traveller dodges the language issue because that's just crazy sauce. 40k uses their Imperial language as their version of Common, but with so many planets getting isolated for a dozen generations, even that's a major dodge.

I enjoy grunting as much as the next GM, but if my Orcs & Dragons don't speak Common, how else are they to taunt and insult the PCs before they whack them?

Of course, if everyone speaks Star Trek English, it negates the value of language skills which isn't bueno.

I like the idea of having lots of languages, in theory.  It adds depth and verisimilitude, and it makes travel a lot more interesting.  On the other hand, it makes everything a lot more work for the GM, players, and even the characters.  My campaigns usually have various languages, but I mostly just use that to inform name creation.  During the game, characters speak enough languages to get by, everyone speaks English in practice, and the rest gets swept under the rug.

Quote from: Spinachcat on October 04, 2020, 07:37:10 PMI enjoy grunting as much as the next GM, but if my Orcs & Dragons don't speak Common, how else are they to taunt and insult the PCs before they whack them?

Easily.  It's not hard at all to sneer, jeer in a sarcastic tone (while speaking incomprehensible syllables), gesture at a PC's crotch, and then laugh sardonically.  Pisses the players off just as well!

I've always used just-plain-languages myself, and have only run two parties (and neither for as much as a year) outside the littoral containing the world's two most common lingua francas.

Happily, in GURPS, there isn't any artificial restriction on how many languages you can learn any more than upon any other skill.  Just a matter of on what you feel like spending points.

I've had some trouble figuring out how to make abandoning common work with D&D and quasi-historical settings; in one of the places I was trying to emulate, every third city along the trade route introduces a new distinct language, and there are at least three writing systems in use.

The Forgotten Realms even has guidance about local languages if you dig in a bit, but then you need players willing to spend their few language picks on nearby human tongues instead of all the beast / elemental / divine things they expect, even before you start bringing in dead languages.
Or translators become an important part of play, or translation magic.

*I'd* enjoy that, but I need to meet my players at least half-way.
I'm starting up a campaign tomorrow (!) with a nonstandard language list - we'll see how that goes - but it's still got Common at the root.

More and more, I compromise on languages.  That is, I want a little more nod to realism than "common" and racial languages implies, but not even to the extent that one could call the result verisimilitude.  I'm still hard on the playable side of the equation, but with one toe dipped across the line.

Usually, I'm getting there by having a few "common" replacements while making a distinction between such trade languages and full languages.  In a trade language, you can buy things, plead for mercy, ask directions, hurl insults, etc, but you can't express complex ideas or impress the locals or the like.  In a full language, you can do everything, but to a narrower group of people.  I've also played around with a variant where language proficiency comes in "partial" and "full" levels, with the "partial" operating like the trade languages.  Any trade languages in that scheme don't have a "full" proficiency to get.  Then I'm handing out twice the language proficiencies to compensate.  Not sure yet if partial/full buys me enough for the hassle, though.  That's certainly as far as I'll push it in most games. 

For example, in one campaign I've got trade languages including "Imperial, Moon Fey, Slice, and Low Draconic".  Slice is the "trade" tongue of goblins, orcs, etc.  You can talk to them using it, but you can't disguise yourself and fool them for long with that speech.  You will not always understand what you overhear, either.  Goblins talking among themselves use "Boss", with lots of nuance for pecking order, which is important to them. To learn that language is to gain some insight into how goblins think.  A person knowing slice could follow a little of Boss, maybe.  (In D&D 5E for example, it would be disadvantage on Insight or Perception to get the gist of the conversation.)  Slice/Boss are more distinct than dialects but not completely separate either.  Imperial/High Imperial and the Low/High Draconic work more like German/High German.  Moon Fey will let you communicate with a lot of creatures that would require 5 or 6 other languages otherwise, but it is hardly "common".

In that campaign, it adds up to about 40 languages that a starting character could learn, but less than 10 of those are trade languages.  About half are of interest only to natives, merchants, scholars, or the like.  A few are dead/planar languages that casters might want to know.

The main effect on play is to put different characters front and center at times.  Bob has to talk to the king because even though his charisma isn't tops, he knows the language of the court.  Other characters are following along well enough, but they don't necessarily get all the nuance. 

Most groups its too hard and leads to boredom for some people as they have to pretend not to hear what's going on and check out.  We did this a lot with 7th Sea back in the day and I didn't find it actually added much to the gameplay.

I never use Common.  There might be some Trade Tongues that are used by traveling or guilded merchants but your average local merchant probably wouldn't know it.

In any given area, there's probably one or two dominant languages that people can use.  For example if you're in one of the countries neighbouring Aquilonia, or in major cities with trade routes, you can probably get by with Aquilonian in foreign lands, but if you're way out in the backwoods of Bossonia, which lies inside Aquilonia, you might have to deal with people that don't speak that tongue.

I find players usually like a good language system, but it's good to make sure during chargen all PCs can communicate with each other.

I endorse this view. I never have a "common" tongue. Some languages may be more widespread than others, but no "common." Also no single "magic"  language. An ancient inscription or text (including a magic text) will be written in an ancient language and if you didn't learn it, then you can't read it. Especially if you are a MU you definitely want to pay attention to picking up languages, both ancient and modern.

Yes it adds complications, but so does learning specific weapons, or building alliances and social networks. It's something you have to do to proceed and progress. it's part of the game.

Quote from: CRKrueger on October 05, 2020, 02:09:44 PM

I find players usually like a good language system, but it's good to make sure during chargen all PCs can communicate with each other.

Agreed. Conversely, if you're looking for a campaign rather than a on-off, it's good to encourage the party to have a mix of second or third languages, so they have options to travel knowing that at least one of them can talk to the locals.

I agree. However the one thing I allow is that there is a Merchant's tongue that is a pidgin of most languages. However Merchant's tongue can't be used for more than Trading and simple words and phrases. So in effect if you want to communicate outside the Foreigner's Quarter of a city you need to know the language of that land.

Quote from: Zirunel on October 05, 2020, 08:28:43 PMConversely, if you're looking for a campaign rather than a on-off, it's good to encourage the party to have a mix of second or third languages, so they have options to travel knowing that at least one of them can talk to the locals.

I don't need to encourage them; the players are almost always smart enough to figure it out on their own.

Quote from: SHARK on October 04, 2020, 03:32:21 PM
Greetings!

What are your thoughts on such languages and the "Common" tongue dynamic? Have you done something similar in your own campaigns? How have your players responded to such dynamics in the game world?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Greetings, Shark.

As a professional translator and amateur linguist I've been doing the same thing in my fantasy games for ages.

I almost always use some sort of regional "common language", but it's never used outside its geographical region. For example, my current campaign 2E is set in Forgotten Realms' Sword Coast, so a regional language (called Calant) could be considered as the regional "common" and is spoken in most places from the North to Daggerford, albeit with different accents.

However, no one speaks Calant outside these two regions. And people in the north also speak Illuskan, a language that belongs to another linguistic family, and thus it's not comprehensible by those who only speak Calant. Most Northerners are bilingual or, if not, have at least some rudimentary comprehension of their non-native language.

To add more realism, I divide languages into linguistic branches (languages from the same family share the same alphabet, grammar and have similar phonemes and are mutually intelligible, because they always come from the same ancient, old mother language) and subdivisions.

Most of my players love those little details.

Quote from: Greywolf76 on October 06, 2020, 09:25:29 AM

Quote from: SHARK on October 04, 2020, 03:32:21 PM
Greetings!

What are your thoughts on such languages and the "Common" tongue dynamic? Have you done something similar in your own campaigns? How have your players responded to such dynamics in the game world?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Greetings, Shark.

As a professional translator and amateur linguist I've been doing the same thing in my fantasy games for ages.

I almost always use some sort of regional "common language", but it's never used outside its geographical region. For example, my current campaign 2E is set in Forgotten Realms' Sword Coast, so a regional language (called Calant) could be considered as the regional "common" and is spoken in most places from the North to Daggerford, albeit with different accents.

However, no one speaks Calant outside these two regions. And people in the north also speak Illuskan, a language that belongs to another linguistic family, and thus it's not comprehensible by those who only speak Calant. Most Northerners are bilingual or, if not, have at least some rudimentary comprehension of their non-native language.

To add more realism, I divide languages into linguistic branches (languages from the same family share the same alphabet, grammar and have similar phonemes and are mutually intelligible, because they always come from the same ancient, old mother language) and subdivisions.

Most of my players love those little details.

Greetings!

Thank you, Greywolf! Your campaign sounds very cool! Your real-life job and interest in linguistics is pretty awesome, too! In my world of Thandor, geesus--*laughing*--I have done something entirely similar to what you have in your Forgotten Realms campaign. I have developed several ancient mother-root tongues, then there are several or more branch languages that stretch out from there. I have *dozens* of distinctly different languages in my campaign. Also like your own campaign, within each particular geographical location, there is typically a dominant "common" language--for example, within the Vallorean Empire, Common Vallorean is the de facto "Common Language". North of the northern borders of the Vallorean Empire, the barbarian language of the Ghebben is the most prominent language. Further to the east, Common Archaedian is the predominant language. And so on. Thus, there are many languages that are extremely useful, even essential to any character that seeks to travel beyond the boundaries of their village or province.

When I was in college, I had a friend and classmate that was majoring in Linguistics. He already was fluent in English, Vietnamese, German, French, Russian, Chinese. He is a Vietnamese-American, and grew up learning Vietnamese, Chinese, and English. Through school he had picked up and become fluent in Russian, French, and German, and now the guy was moving onto Latin and Hindi. *Laughing* I was thoroughly amazed. Interestingly, I have numerous friends and colleagues from foreign lands--and whether they are from Persia, India, Czechoslovakia, France, Germany, or Kenya--it is not uncommon for any of them to be solidly fluent in three or four languages, and somewhat familiar with one or two more languages besides.

Thus, from my own real-world experience, and also from history, I love languages, and view knowledge of them is very useful and beneficial to an individual in so many ways, you know? The idea of a total global "Common Language" just seems ludicrous to me--and as I mentioned in the introduction, it makes possession of other languages irrelevant. From there, the various cultures and ethnic groups and customs all kind of get watered down and become a vaguely bland mish-mash. In my campaign, the players do not just go into dungeons, and then return to a pod-like existence in the generic town. They may be living in a particular area for many long months, even several years *in game time*--and building relationships with the local population, oftentimes which they are new arrivals in a foreign land, so making friends, having romances, hiring people, and getting drawn into the native environment in a more meaningful manner just becomes a whole lot more necessary and interesting if the players know or must learn one or more of the native languages spoken by the people of the area.

I have also noticed that even though embracing such language rules or dynamics, that while the Players must devote effort and attention to learning additional languages--as there is no universal "Common Tongue"--they have all responded well and with enthusiasm to the principle. They have all enjoyed the enhanced sense of realism to the campaign as a whole, so I believe the effort is definitely worthwhile in creating a more realistic and dynamic campaign!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I try to strike a balance between "something more real-feeling" and "playability."

What I'd like to do would be have large kingdoms and many languages and peoples in them  Something like France with Languedoc and French or the Iberian tongues, or enough versions of Orcish to choke a scholar.

What I actually do is make them broader than that so players don't have to waste time finding a translator every time they travel a hundred miles or cross a border.  So "Spanish" instead of "Catalan."  Mutual incomprehension is fun on occasion but it gets tiresome if it happens all the time.

I like how the Scarred Lands handled it in 3.5. There was an effectively dead language, Ledean, spoken by the old Ledean empire (Rome). While they were gone, they had once ruled most of the continent.

There was no common, but most people in the merchant class, the upper class, or the learned, could read, write, and speak Ledean. So you had your regional language and, if you had a bonus language, it was Ledean. And several languages had roots in Ledean, so you could kind of make yourself understood. (Same thing between Middle English and Albadian; to the point where one would be considered speaking the High Queen's English, or possibly late Middle English, and the other would sound like they're from Alabama. . . it's a related language, but it's not the same).

Quote from: SHARK on October 06, 2020, 12:50:11 PM

Quote from: Greywolf76 on October 06, 2020, 09:25:29 AM

Quote from: SHARK on October 04, 2020, 03:32:21 PM
Greetings!

What are your thoughts on such languages and the "Common" tongue dynamic? Have you done something similar in your own campaigns? How have your players responded to such dynamics in the game world?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Greetings, Shark.

As a professional translator and amateur linguist I've been doing the same thing in my fantasy games for ages.

I almost always use some sort of regional "common language", but it's never used outside its geographical region. For example, my current campaign 2E is set in Forgotten Realms' Sword Coast, so a regional language (called Calant) could be considered as the regional "common" and is spoken in most places from the North to Daggerford, albeit with different accents.

However, no one speaks Calant outside these two regions. And people in the north also speak Illuskan, a language that belongs to another linguistic family, and thus it's not comprehensible by those who only speak Calant. Most Northerners are bilingual or, if not, have at least some rudimentary comprehension of their non-native language.

To add more realism, I divide languages into linguistic branches (languages from the same family share the same alphabet, grammar and have similar phonemes and are mutually intelligible, because they always come from the same ancient, old mother language) and subdivisions.

Most of my players love those little details.

Greetings!

Thank you, Greywolf! Your campaign sounds very cool! Your real-life job and interest in linguistics is pretty awesome, too! In my world of Thandor, geesus--*laughing*--I have done something entirely similar to what you have in your Forgotten Realms campaign. I have developed several ancient mother-root tongues, then there are several or more branch languages that stretch out from there. I have *dozens* of distinctly different languages in my campaign. Also like your own campaign, within each particular geographical location, there is typically a dominant "common" language--for example, within the Vallorean Empire, Common Vallorean is the de facto "Common Language". North of the northern borders of the Vallorean Empire, the barbarian language of the Ghebben is the most prominent language. Further to the east, Common Archaedian is the predominant language. And so on. Thus, there are many languages that are extremely useful, even essential to any character that seeks to travel beyond the boundaries of their village or province.

When I was in college, I had a friend and classmate that was majoring in Linguistics. He already was fluent in English, Vietnamese, German, French, Russian, Chinese. He is a Vietnamese-American, and grew up learning Vietnamese, Chinese, and English. Through school he had picked up and become fluent in Russian, French, and German, and now the guy was moving onto Latin and Hindi. *Laughing* I was thoroughly amazed. Interestingly, I have numerous friends and colleagues from foreign lands--and whether they are from Persia, India, Czechoslovakia, France, Germany, or Kenya--it is not uncommon for any of them to be solidly fluent in three or four languages, and somewhat familiar with one or two more languages besides.

Thus, from my own real-world experience, and also from history, I love languages, and view knowledge of them is very useful and beneficial to an individual in so many ways, you know? The idea of a total global "Common Language" just seems ludicrous to me--and as I mentioned in the introduction, it makes possession of other languages irrelevant. From there, the various cultures and ethnic groups and customs all kind of get watered down and become a vaguely bland mish-mash. In my campaign, the players do not just go into dungeons, and then return to a pod-like existence in the generic town. They may be living in a particular area for many long months, even several years *in game time*--and building relationships with the local population, oftentimes which they are new arrivals in a foreign land, so making friends, having romances, hiring people, and getting drawn into the native environment in a more meaningful manner just becomes a whole lot more necessary and interesting if the players know or must learn one or more of the native languages spoken by the people of the area.

I have also noticed that even though embracing such language rules or dynamics, that while the Players must devote effort and attention to learning additional languages--as there is no universal "Common Tongue"--they have all responded well and with enthusiasm to the principle. They have all enjoyed the enhanced sense of realism to the campaign as a whole, so I believe the effort is definitely worthwhile in creating a more realistic and dynamic campaign!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Hello, Shark.

Yes, I love languages, too, and it's one of the main reasons I became a translator.

Besides my native Portuguese, I'm fluent in English and three other languages. Now I've started learning Greek, and learning Japanese and Irish Gaelic are on my bucket list, too. LOL.

Anyway, I see you like the same amount of detail in your campaigns that I do. Little things, like different languages, different kinds of clothing, even different architectural styles are very important to me.

One of the things I do is that I make regional a list of names with similar sounds. So you'll never find people named Rufus, Alistair and Jean-Paul living in the same place. In fact, I use English names for most of the villages, cities and people in the area my players' characters are living. In the North I mentioned before I use Scandinavian-like names, and names inspired by Iberian languages in the Southern Sword Coast. And so on.

One my biggest pet-peeves are nonsense village names without any real meaningful names (like Secomber, Sumbarya, Gollothilia,  or something silly like that). I changed most of the place names to names that mean something (Fair Haven, Stonehills, Eastdale, and so on).

Anyway, I heartily recommend the article "Speaking in Tongues", by Thomas M. Costa, from Dragon Magazine Annual 4. It's a linguistic atlas for the Forgotten Realms, but it's one of the best articles on fantastic linguistics I've read, and can be used as a basis for any fantasy setting.

And I've always liked to build and develop a base of operations or hometown for the PCs between adventures, where they can relax in their favorite taverns, develop relationships with different NPCs (sages, merchants, priests, and so on). Like I said above, these little things are as much important as high adventure and memorable villains.

Nice talking to you.

Greywolf

I love languages. Majored in Latin and Ancient Greek, then taught them for a while.

Nevertheless, one has to balance realism and playability. So, my preference is to use "human" as a crude "trade language" known by most humans, demi-humans and humanoid monsters within reasonable "gaming distance." The foreign traveler at the local inn, the merchant from that neighboring kingdom, the elves who live in that forest to the south and the orcs who live under that giant mountain looming over the valley all know it. Now, if you want to gain their friendship, resolve a tense situation favorably, hold a complex negotiation, secretly eavesdrop on their conversation or decipher their texts/markings, you still need to know their language. In other words, there are still many legit reasons for learning languages or using language spells.

My goal is to make languages enrich the game, not bog it down.

Quote from: SHARK on October 04, 2020, 03:32:21 PM
What are your thoughts on such languages and the "Common" tongue dynamic? Have you done something similar in your own campaigns? How have your players responded to such dynamics in the game world?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Sounds like one of those things that would make DnD 30 minutes of fun for every four hours of game time.

The campaign I am in uses Tradespeak instead of Common. Which has a long tradition in Earth history. The Phoenicians for example used their own language as a common touchstone between other cultures to perform their business. So the precedent is clearly there.

I don't find the juice to be worth the squeeze

I have been in parties where 2 PCs have not shared a common language and it has been painful to play. We much prefer having a Common or TradeTalk available, just to everyone in the party can communicate with each other.

Where Common is used, it works at one level, but I normally play that NPCs prefer it if you speak to them in their own language, maybe getting bonuses for using that language. But, Common is a good fallback.

IME, communication issues can be fun when they appear in small doses. As ongoing problems, they're more annoying than anything else. For a short while, I dabbled with more realistic languages, or severely limited whatever the "common" equivalent was but, in the end, realised it's there for a good reason.

Quote from: soltakss on October 10, 2020, 08:15:13 AM
I have been in parties where 2 PCs have not shared a common language and it has been painful to play. We much prefer having a Common or TradeTalk available, just to everyone in the party can communicate with each other.

In a Star Wars game, we had the opposite experience: we had a pacifist wookie who nobody but the murder droid could understand. The murder droid would constantly 'creatively translate' his messages. Out of character, we could all hear what the guy was saying and what the droid player was saying. It was hilarious.

Quote from: Tanin Wulf on October 10, 2020, 07:16:13 PMIn a Star Wars game, we had the opposite experience: we had a pacifist wookie who nobody but the murder droid could understand. The murder droid would constantly 'creatively translate' his messages. Out of character, we could all hear what the guy was saying and what the droid player was saying. It was hilarious.

:) Brilliant, love it.

i always struggled with the concept of a common tongue in an rpg especially when so many racial languages were present, earlier editions liked to give every race or even subracial category its own language. i imagine in the real word latin or greek served as the basis for a common language; and i've used that in playing D6 fantasy on different quantum iterations of earth past, or in some cases assumed a common tongue (and even common currencies) was derived from atlantean. you find a 1000 year old temple with chests of gold coins in it, who minted them, for example? some say it doesnt matter, all that matters is that everyone wants to get them and melt them down and recast new ones with their own sigil or face on them.

eta
since i use D6 system language is governed by a skill, dice you roll, so even absent a concrete prior-era common language you can roll to see if you get the gist of what the other person says, so i guess its more an issue with iterations of d&d were you either have the language or don't.

I keep "Common" as regional dominant language with allowances for patois and pidgin. Often in my Fantasy this means Human-Dominant, with young mortal demi-human-oid with their "Racial" tongue fused to this human "Common." So Halflings or Orcs might have "Halfling-Latin" or "Orcish-Chinese." Whereas elder races might have "Cormanthyran-Elvish" or "Morian-Dwarvish" and diversify from there if humans overlap upon their regional influence. So you could get an inversion from DemiOidRacial-HumanCommon to HumanCommon-DemiOidRacial, like Fulani-Semberian Cormanthyran (Elvish) instead of Lluiren-Fulani Halflingese.

Yes, I am here to oppress you.  ;D

It's basically a way to keep secrets and draw upon the exotic. But it can also work the other way around, too, so not just a penalty but a rapid way to seek commonality. Alignment Languages, Druidic, Thieves Cant, Trade Pidgin, et alia *can* transcend like pidgin & gestures across vast language gulfs and thus make fast allies in a strange land. And large linguistic foundations, like Latin or Cormanthyr, can leave mystic ancestral footprints (transcending time) AND form basis as a 'high language' (transcending spatial linguistic branching).

I am in the "yeah, just let everybody speak common" camp - even though I have different solutions for alignment languages, etc.

However, I see many potential upsides to this approach.

First, it solves the "problem" where there is one "face" of the party and everyone else dumps Charisma. Nope, if you can't speak the language, you don't add your modifier to the reaction roll (etc.).

Second, some PCs and NPCs can talk secretly - or THINK they are talking secretly.

Sounds like a fun idea. If used sparingly.

Common Tongue is absolutely an authentic thing. In the west for most of history it was called Latin.  Now it's English.  In other parts of the world it was Arabic, (Mandarin) Chinese, etc.

The part that isn't realistic is that peasants speak it. "Common Tongue" is the tool to differentiate the people who are educated to some degree from those who aren't at all.

To some degree, but it sometimes changes - if source of Common Tongue is strong enough larger area can start use it down to peasants - like Celtiberians and Gaul turned to vulgar Latin, lots of world turned to dialects of English and Spanish and so on.

Yeah, how common "Common" is has a lot to do with how your world is set up. If you had a long lasting continent-spanning empire like Rome in the region and it only collapsed/withdrew two hundred years ago... then "Common" is probably everywhere (vulgar being just another word for "common") though linguistic drift is definitely resulting in regional accents.

300-400 years out though there will have been enough drift that different regions will no longer be mutually understandable.

I base the timing off historical records indicating that up until the middle of the 7th Century there remained mutual understandably in Latin between speakers from even distant portions of the former empire (i.e. both could speak their native tongue and be mostly understood by the other), but that by the end of the 9th Century such mutual understandability was no longer possible (i.e. if both spoke their native tongues they could not understand each other... one or the other would need to learn the other's language to understand each other).

The point being... if you want there to be a "Common" in your world, make sure to set it up in a way to make it plausible. It's why I specifically included a global magitech empire that had ruled for about 500 years and which collapsed 200 years ago in my world. It's in the waning days of a mutually intelligible common language (lots of NPCs with accents if they aren't locals) so characters can mostly be understood by anyone, but accents and colloquialisms can be used to accentuate foreigners.

Plus, relatively recently fallen mighty empires also make good sources of ruins for adventurers to plunder without being so old as to be completely stripped of all valuables (especially given the massive population implosion that accompanied the empire's collapse).

Quote from: Chris24601 on November 12, 2020, 11:23:39 AM
Yeah, how common "Common" is has a lot to do with how your world is set up. If you had a long lasting continent-spanning empire like Rome in the region and it only collapsed/withdrew two hundred years ago... then "Common" is probably everywhere (vulgar being just another word for "common") though linguistic drift is definitely resulting in regional accents.

300-400 years out though there will have been enough drift that different regions will no longer be mutually understandable.

I base the timing off historical records indicating that up until the middle of the 7th Century there remained mutual understandably in Latin between speakers from even distant portions of the former empire (i.e. both could speak their native tongue and be mostly understood by the other), but that by the end of the 9th Century such mutual understandability was no longer possible (i.e. if both spoke their native tongues they could not understand each other... one or the other would need to learn the other's language to understand each other).

The point being... if you want there to be a "Common" in your world, make sure to set it up in a way to make it plausible. It's why I specifically included a global magitech empire that had ruled for about 500 years and which collapsed 200 years ago in my world. It's in the waning days of a mutually intelligible common language (lots of NPCs with accents if they aren't locals) so characters can mostly be understood by anyone, but accents and colloquialisms can be used to accentuate foreigners.

Plus, relatively recently fallen mighty empires also make good sources of ruins for adventurers to plunder without being so old as to be completely stripped of all valuables (especially given the massive population implosion that accompanied the empire's collapse).

Your numbers might work for humans in isolation, but if your game world includes integrated dwarves, elves, and gnomes as speakers of Common, then those times for language drift need to account for speakers that live for several centuries.

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2020, 12:25:00 PM
Your numbers might work for humans in isolation, but if your game world includes integrated dwarves, elves, and gnomes as speakers of Common, then those times for language drift need to account for speakers that live for several centuries.

My dwarves don't live any longer than humans do (and are relatively well integrated into human society as it is... humans with dwarven ancestry are more common than those with elvish ancestry) and elves and gnomes first arrived in this dimension at the same time the empire collapsed (the two were caused by the same Cataclysm) already speaking their own language. They didn't even start learning the common tongue until well after the empire had collapsed. All my other species either have lifespans either comparable to humans (beastmen are actually less overall, but reach maturity in 1-2 years so the overall 60 year lifespan isn't a big deal in terms of PCs) or are also relatively recent arrivals/creations (the golems were created in the heyday of the now fallen empire and have the classical version of the language, which I demonstrate in play via use of Received Pronunciation vs. Midwestern American for those speaking the local dialect).

In other settings, dwarves, elves and gnomes tend to have their own isolated cultures (i.e. minimal contact with humans vs. living among humans) with their own native languages (dwarven, elven, etc.) that they maintain. Dwarven, elven and gnomish communities also tend to be smaller than the human populations which further reduces the degree of contact between them and human commoners. That the demi-human species also speak human common is largely a game contrivance to allow the PCs to be able to easily communicate with each other.

As such, I'd say the timescales are about right because in just about any settings the humans are going to be the primary drivers in changes to the human common language without enough contact with elves or dwarves or gnomes to matter (if anything I'd expect most elves to need remedial courses in common every couple of centuries as it continues to drift while they and their native elven tongue remain more or less static).

Quote from: Chris24601 on November 12, 2020, 02:59:01 PM
In other settings, dwarves, elves and gnomes tend to

Your own setting is all yours, but "other settings" don't all share the tendencies you suggest. Eberron is but one example where your tendency does not apply at all.