For a long time, I've wanted to create my own version of RM using the various parts of RM2 and RMSS that take my fancy. Last night, I suddenly and randomly decided that it might be time to actually start working on this.

The plan is not make any significant changes or add new rules. For the most part, any houserules will simply be those required to integrate the two rulesets in a fashion pleasing to me.

RMSS is most likely going to form the foundation, and I will then be using a few elements from RM2 to create a somewhat lighter, more streamlined systems.

The things that I definitely want to keep from RMSS, and which I consider system improvements from RM2:
* The professions, specifically the non-core ones. RMSS/RMFRP professions and their associated spell lists are significantly better balanced and well-rounded than the hodge-podge of RMC professions.
* Fixed Body Development.
* PP Development instead of miniscule, stat-dependent values (I am also likely to tie PP ranks directly to caster level, which should serve to prevent semi-spell users from being all round superior characters at higher levels).
* RMSS style spell list development.
* Combat Styles (is that what they were called?), but only for predominantly unarmed/unarmoured styles.
* Additive stat modifiers

Things I'm not sure about:
* Combat sequence. I'm leaning towards a slightly streamlined RMSS system.
* Skills -- I'm going to strip out a lot of redundant skills. I will probably keep skill categories, if for no other reason than it will mean far less work repricing every single skill.
* Professional bonuses. I'll be starting PCs at 3rd - 5th level (assuming I get around to running it at some point in the future), so I'm leaning towards level bonuses instead of a single front-loaded bonus.
* Stat generation. I don't like the min-maxing that goes with the RMSS system. 10 x d% is pretty damn random, but the ability to bump two stats to 90 goes a long way to mitigating the issue. I think I'll either go with RM2 stat generation, or a selection from a number of fixed arrays with some modifiers.
* Static skill tables. Do the MERP/RMSS style tables add value? I think so. OTOH, a simple roll plus mods with a target of 101+ is extremely straightforward.
* Development points. I'm strongly leaning towards fixed DP values instead of tying them to development stats.

RMSS things I won't be using:
* Training packages. Lots of people love them. I don't see the point, really.
* Talent Law. Background options are more than adequate, and don't include any utterly broken options.

I haven't actually started looking through my books yet, so there will certainly be stuff that I've missed in this post. The biggest task is most likely going to be working out exactly what I'm going to do with skills, and ensuring they're priced correctly by profession.

I spent a year on the revision team, flamed out and washed my hands of ICE and Rolemaster.

The point of training packages is two fold, first to reduce profession bloat and secondly to preload characters as picking from around 600 skills can be pretty overwhelming.

Personally we generally assigned 2 stats to 95 and the rest to 60 and just rolled potentials.

The most broken thing in RMSS is 2 background options to pick 2 +20 items, done repeatedly one could have +20 armor, +20 shield, +20 weapon, and +20 any other skill item.  Nothing in Talent Law quite measures up.  Blessed By The War God sounds great on paper until the GM sends you on a suicide mission every month.

I like the combat system well enough though I generally assume the PCs are taking react and melee rather than messing around with the ways the various actions mix with percentage activity.  Really, I think the revision team's now long scrapped answer was pretty good.  1-50% movement / activity in Snap, 25 - 75% in Normal, 50% - 100% in Deliberate.  Minimum attack 50%.  We were trying to come up with a mechanism that would allow a shield skill, but I don't think there was ever a version that was reasonable or functional.

I like the smaller talent system in the RMSS book best but it needs something better for items and money, which is where Talent Law comes in.

Quote from: David Johansen;953310The point of training packages is two fold, first to reduce profession bloat and secondly to preload characters as picking from around 600 skills can be pretty overwhelming.

I guess I can kind of see that. By paring down the skill list, I eliminate that benefit. And I have no need to reduce profession bloat, I've got plenty to choose from between the core, Fire and Ice, Arcane Companion, Martial Arts and whatever book had the extra non-spell-users.

QuotePersonally we generally assigned 2 stats to 95 and the rest to 60 and just rolled potentials.

Interesting. That grates on me, but once you make a few stat gain rolls, I can see it working much better than it first looks.

QuoteThe most broken thing in RMSS is 2 background options to pick 2 +20 items, done repeatedly one could have +20 armor, +20 shield, +20 weapon, and +20 any other skill item.  Nothing in Talent Law quite measures up.  Blessed By The War God sounds great on paper until the GM sends you on a suicide mission every month.

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I like the smaller talent system in the RMSS book best but it needs something better for items and money, which is where Talent Law comes in

Oh, I forgot all about any talents in RMSS Character Law. Maybe I will use a limited list of Talents. I used Background Options in RM2 and Talents in RMSS. If it's easy to come up with a list of reasonable talents, I might still use them.

QuoteI like the combat system well enough though I generally assume the PCs are taking react and melee rather than messing around with the ways the various actions mix with percentage activity.  Really, I think the revision team's now long scrapped answer was pretty good.  1-50% movement / activity in Snap, 25 - 75% in Normal, 50% - 100% in Deliberate.  Minimum attack 50%.  We were trying to come up with a mechanism that would allow a shield skill, but I don't think there was ever a version that was reasonable or functional.

Yeah, a functional, useful shield skill would have to amount to significant changes to the combat system. I probably won't change the combat sequence much. My main concern is asking 8 players to all declare their actions prior to acting, while simultaneously keeping track of NPC/monster declarations. Simply shifting to a phase-by-phase declaration might suffice.

Fixed development points is probably a good idea if characters can increase stats. I think it was HARP that had a feedback loop where you could pump development points back into the development stat and long-term get both stat increases and more skills than you would have if you'd spent them on skills.

I'm not super RM literate, not having read the book in a long time, but out of unhealthy curiousity what's the big issue with having a 'shield' skill? Do you mean you want there to be a separate 'action cost' to actually use the skill that was hard to integrate, or was it a number-scaling issue with adding the bonus to defense?
I'm also curious about what's wrong with 'body development'. I guess buying more HPs as a skill is slightly problematic, but isn't this adequately offset by HPs being made redundant by deadly crits?

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;953317Fixed development points is probably a good idea if characters can increase stats. I think it was HARP that had a feedback loop where you could pump development points back into the development stat and long-term get both stat increases and more skills than you would have if you'd spent them on skills.
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The original version had this, and it was a bad idea. Revised now uses fixed DP per level with the option of stat-based DP bonuses if you like the old system. I can't see a GM allowing it. :-D

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;953317I'm not super RM literate, not having read the book in a long time, but out of unhealthy curiousity what's the big issue with having a 'shield' skill? Do you mean you want there to be a separate 'action cost' to actually use the skill that was hard to integrate, or was it a number-scaling issue with adding the bonus to defense?

It's not something that I feel a need for in the game, I was simply responding to the point raised by David. Treating shields more like weapons (ala RQ) is almost certainly more realistic, and it's a bit weird having them not be a skill-based feature, when just about everything else in the game is. There's just not really any way to do that in RM without rebuilding some elements of the game from the ground up. I'd say this is true in reasonably complex combat system that isn't built with this in mind to begin with.

Allowing characters to shield bash is easy enough, but generally pointless since attacking with the primary weapon is going to be the superior option in the vast majority of circumstances.

QuoteI'm also curious about what's wrong with 'body development'. I guess buying more HPs as a skill is slightly problematic, but isn't this adequately offset by HPs being made redundant by deadly crits?

RM2 had you buy "hit dice" with the Body Development skill, which you then rolled to get your increase. RMSS gives you a fixed value (based on race) for each skill rank. When I say "Fixed Body Development" I'm referring to the RMSS system with a fixed value per-rank.

QuoteFixed development points is probably a good idea if characters can increase stats. I think it was HARP that had a feedback loop where you could pump development points back into the development stat and long-term get both stat increases and more skills than you would have if you'd spent them on skills.

You can't pay for stat increase with Development Points, so there's no feedback issue in RM. It can make for some pretty big differences in character ability though. The Development stats do tend to be a little less useful overall outside what they give in DPs, but DP disparity is still a bit of an issue, IMO. They system already makes it hard to pump excessive amounts of points into a narrow range of skills, so just making sure everyone has a healthy amount seems ideal to me.

The talents in RMFRP Character Law fixed most of the problems with RMSS talents. It may be unnecessary but it's no longer such a minefield of broken options. Just remove the legendary "Blessed By the War God"...
Definitely have fixed DP and the main thing, a streamlined skill list.

Quote from: The_Shadow;953321The talents in RMFRP Character Law fixed most of the problems with RMSS talents. It may be unnecessary but it's no longer such a minefield of broken options. Just remove the legendary "Blessed By the War God"...
Definitely have fixed DP and the main thing, a streamlined skill list.

I don't actually have the RMFRP core books, having RMSS instead, although I'm thinking if I'm going to do this, I'll probably end up grabbing everything on pdf anyway. Which leads to a question ... Would I need (for example) RMFRP Spell Law + Of Essence + Essence Companion to have everything I already have had with just RMSS Spell Law + Essence Companion?

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I remember owning the old red box set but gods I haven't thought about RM in years, never did get my group to play, way too many charts.

Hmm ...

Well, I've got the list down to just over 150 skills.

That includes a lot that I only left in for background flavour, and plenty of skills that allow for fairly narrow, unique and utterly optional specialisation. Picking up core competencies should not require recognising the need for three different, obscure skills.

Athletic Brawn and Gymnastics have been combined, as well as Artstic Active/Passive, Awareness Senses/Perception Combat Manoeuvres/Special Attacks, Lore General/Technical, Subterfuge Stealth/Mechanics, Crafts/Tech-Trade General and Tech-Trade Advanced/Vocational.

Current list can be viewed here, for anyone who's interested: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_v5gnUhLoEUMkRMOEVzNjNoMXc/view?usp=sharing

Quote from: Sable Wyvern;953327Hmm ...

Well, I've got the list down to just over 150 skills.

That includes a lot that I only left in for background flavour, and plenty of skills that allow for fairly narrow, unique and utterly optional specialisation. Picking up core competencies should not require recognising the need for three different, obscure skills.

Athletic Brawn and Gymnastics have been combined, as well as Artstic Active/Passive, Awareness Senses/Perception Combat Manoeuvres/Special Attacks, Lore General/Technical, Subterfuge Stealth/Mechanics, Crafts/Tech-Trade General and Tech-Trade Advanced/Vocational.

Current list can be viewed here, for anyone who's interested: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_v5gnUhLoEUMkRMOEVzNjNoMXc/view?usp=sharing

Looks like a Labour of love I can't wait to see the finished result, I always liked RM

Now, this is interesting ...

I've been going through the professions. It's been a long, long time since I've run RM. Back in the day, I would design a world (briefly, or in detail) that was more-or-less standard fantasy fare, and then use RM to run a game in that world.

But it only now occurs to me that if you really want to give most of the professions a really solid place in a game world, they point towards a particular setting details. There's plenty of room for different ways of doing this, but to do them justice, many professions do need to be integrated into the tapestry of society in one way or another.

The thoughts that are jumping out to me at the moment, are:

* A world where the cults of Elemental gods clash against one another.
* A world where non-elemental religions also engage in constant warfare, both open and covert, with sufficient regularity to justify specialist religious agents, both marital and devious.
* A world where individuals and secret societies guard the esoteric knowledge of true Arcane magic, mostly for their own edification, while others endeavour to hunt them down and destroy them.

When/if I run RM again, I think the setting is going to be dominated by six Elemental cults and a small handful of other powerful religions, all scheming and plotting and regularly in conflict with each other. And with 36+ spell-using professions vs 8 non-spell-using I really need to think about how all these different spell users are integrated into society. A dark, ominous, dangerous setting, oozing intrigue, with both dabblers and masters of magic of various forms all pursing their own goals in the shadow of more obvious conflicts.

I've kind of sensed this stuff before, but pushed it aside, because RM just happened to be the system I ran, and I was more likely to ignore parts of it that weren't relevant to the thing I was running at the time than try and integrate them. Working from the other direction and building a setting based on the system is suddenly striking me as vastly more interesting.

Quote from: Sable Wyvern;953324I don't actually have the RMFRP core books, having RMSS instead, although I'm thinking if I'm going to do this, I'll probably end up grabbing everything on pdf anyway. Which leads to a question ... Would I need (for example) RMFRP Spell Law + Of Essence + Essence Companion to have everything I already have had with just RMSS Spell Law + Essence Companion?

RMFRP "Spell Law" is broken down into the three realm books, there's no single volume version. So you would need to get all three, as the spell lists in the core RMFRP book only go to 10th level. But there's no need, RMSS Spell Law is the same thing in one volume.

If you're using RMSS rather than RMFRP, the main thing in the core you're missing out on is the revised talents in RMFRP CL as the Talent Law book was quickly realised to be broken. I think there are a few new rules and fixes in the RM Annuals 1996 and 1997 which were incorporated into RMFRP, but you're not missing much there.

I like the idea of going maximalist and heavily using all (four) realm companions as well as Fire and Ice and even Construct Companion, but that's more of a theoretical campaign where the whole table has bought into the lore of RM. Combining that with some fixes as you suggest with the skill system would really hit my personal sweet spot.

I agree with your approach of going through each profession, nixing a few of them and establishing definite in-world roles for the others. I've done it several times with good results. The more niche magical professions are in effect small cults who jealously guard their secrets, as you suggest, it comes out to a very intricate and rich world of factions and arcane lore.

You could run a campaign based purely on warring factions of the same realm, or rival alchemists, construct creators, or elementalists, all of which would have plenty of differentiation and scope. That's where the sheer volume of material in RMSS would really shine.

Godspeed to you sir. I'm convinced this is a plot by Cthulhu himself to drive you into madness!

Oh, boy, did I spend a lot of time on streamlining Rolemaster back in the day. Actually, I think I went through two major periods of my own revisions. Anyway, Rolemaster can be pretty fun when house ruled, while still keeping it recognizable as Rolemaster.

Keep the tables, just find a system of marking them with post-it notes or whatever. This is one of the core aspects of the system after all. OK here are the main points (copied from my old thread on RPG.net)


1. We never use lvl 1 characters. Ever. Normally we start at lvl 4.
2. Armor type 1 (no armor) is too good relative to characters with armor. I used to give all other armor types a +5 (or more) unless the armor was of bad quality, but now I will try an alternative. All characters with AT1 are treated as AT2 (robes), [except, perhaps, in 'heroic sword-and-sorcery settings such as Conan-inspired games, in which barbarians and scantily clad women hack their way through armored soldiers:D]
3. Initiative is rolled only once (at the beginning of the battle)
4. RM is skill-based, and does not handle stat-rolls very well. I therefore introduce some 'generalized' skills to cover more situations. Examples: General Athletics (based on climbing, and supplanting this skill), General Social Skills (based on Seduction), General Technical Skills (based on Disarm Traps), General Armor Training (based on soft leather). The latter because I often feel that characters spend too many points on armor training.
5. 'Routine' actions are at +80, 'easy' actions at +50.